Raids and timers aka epic normal

[kmoustakas]

I've given this some thought and I think I've discovered the root of the problem.

People constantly complain about incentive to run epic elite. Turbine's current method of dealing with this is making the drop rates on epic normal nearly 0%. To be more precise, in my total 31 ruins of thunderholme raids, I've seen 1 item drop total in 29 epic normal runs and 0 items drop in two epic hard runs. I don't mean drop for me, I mean total for all members of the raid. In 9 mark of death raids, I've seen twice 2 items drop, for a total of 4. All on epic normal of course.

That leads to the conclusion that if you want an item from these three raids and don't intend to run epic elite, you will get your item in precisely 20 runs. Period.

Now, I've never run epic elite in any of the 3 raids. To be precise, I've run an epic elite fire on thunderpeak which after an hour inside bugged on us and was uncompletable. I will probably never run these raids on epic elite because there are too many variables, including bugs, lag, dc's and downright difficulty* that make so that epic elite will fail. In addition, epic elite takes a lot longer than epic normal. Add to that the fact that there is no guarantee that if I run it 19 times on epic elite I will actually get something. Thus, the chances of me getting an item running epic elite only are actually LESS than just running the raid on epic normal for 20 runs and get the item I want.

When I say difficulty. I've no doubt that an organised guild filled with flavour of the update super powered guilds who act as a team, have well devised plans and organised communication still will trump the raid on epic elite. But I'm not an epic elite player, I'm not in an epic elite guild and probably will never be. So, what average people will do is pug a raid on epic normal until they get to 20 completions then only run the raid whenever there's a pug for fun. If there's nothing more fun to do. Hence the vast majority of people will burn through raid timers to get the gear they want fast and then never bother again. As soon as the gear is no longer relevant, ie the next raid arrives, nobody ever runs that again. Especially if the raid is designed to require planning and co-ordination aka pug-hostile.

But raids are SUPPOSED to require planning and co-ordination! Hence, the dead end. I don't know how to fix this. I am a firm believer that quests should not be designed to be something you farm. Raids and wilderness are what you farm but currently we don't have enough worthwhile capped level raids because we took the game to the farm-the-quest direction. The first hint should have been when people were farming e-tor and e-pop instead of e-fate because tor had better loot and is harder to get, too! Farm quest psychology is wrong. This is factual wrong, not oppinion wrong. Plus you failed your own rule there that raid loot should be better than quest loot. One of the reasons raid loot should be more 'lesser displacement' and less '+11 to a stat'.

Here's a probably bad idea on how to work this out. Items drop with normal rates on all difficulties. If the chances of getting an item on epic normal are miniscule, you reiterate the burn out problem. Running on epic elite guarantees you the 'seal' to upgrade the item to more power. Example: minos legens drops in a chest. By completing the mark of death raid on epic elite, you are guaranteed to get a non-dupable aka not-bag-a-ble token which you can use to upgrade your helmet to mythic minos. You can never get mythic minos if you don't run epic elite but you only need to run epic elite once for each item you want to turn mythic. Similar to commendations of heroism that might or might not drop on epic normal but the 'commendation' only drops and is guaranteed to drop on epic elite raid. This was done kind of right with the phlogs. Because I only find pugs and run the raids on epic normal, I have total 4 shadow phlogs in 12 runs and 10 fire phlogs in 19 runs. Which sucks and I hate it. But because I'm not good enough to lead an epic hard run, I suffer through it. THe numbers are right: run 20 epic hard ones you get 20 phlogs. Select end reward 10 phlogs and you make your tier3. Only nobody really wants to go through and hour long epic hard* deathwyrm raid so it can crash/lag out at the end.

Last, lets not forget that in cases where the pack doesn't have a heroic component, completing on epic elite rewards more favour too. Saga's also offer a motivation to run epic elite. Lasty, raids should offer A LOT and I mean A LOT more xp than quests. Temple of the deathwyrm should have at the very least DOUBLE the xp it currently has! Von5 is the best example of this. People run epic elite von 5 because it gives tons of xp. Not because it has more chances of dropping that seal, which as soon as you get becomes irrelevant to run again anyway.

* PS There's no need to chime in and tell us how your uber guild completes ee deathwyrm even through the use-jacks-blade-to-get-through-lag in 15 minutes. I believe you and more power to you.

[Eth]

You make a lot of good points. The upgrade idea is nice.

For raids that only offer named items, I wished they would stick with the FoT model.
Tiered loot, but you can get the highest tier on any difficulty, it just requires more runs if you chose the lower ones.
Add a little special to EE only (Soul Gem). Something for everyone. Perfect.

Longevity for the new raid is totally lacking. Depending what you want 20-80 runs and you are done forever (if you run those off chest ransack, you'll also have all the tapestries you need).

If they make named items only raid loot, they should at least add 1 non-exclusive clicky.
I mean people like me still run heroic abbot, because you can never have enough vile blasphemies.

Craftable raid loot is fine IMO. People change builds all the time and therefore need to recraft, which keeps those raids going.
If they do another crafting raid (like the 2 in Thunderholme), they should take a better look at balancing the ingrediences droprates next time though.
Thunderholme raids are horrid in that regard.

[JOTMON]

This is what many of us wanted.
Why run EE beyond the first time for favor with high chance of failure when you can cakewalk normal runs and 20th end rewards with little to no risk of failure for same reward.
We wanted better loot for more difficult content... Loot incentive to challenge more difficult content.
The Epic Gianthold System worked fine.

The problem came when Casual/Solo players cried they were being excluded from getting the good stuff because they cant run harder content and wanted equal access to the same loot because they are paying customers too.
They didn't want inferior rewards for easier content, they wanted the best of the best without having to work their way up to it and they want it now.
Their argument was that EE players should be happy to run EE for the challenge not the reward.

Dev's cowed to the masses and gave an easy option to access the best of the best loot.

[Monkey-Boy]

This is what many of us wanted.
Why run EE beyond the first time for favor with high chance of failure when you can cakewalk normal runs and 20th end rewards with little to no risk of failure for same reward.
We wanted better loot for more difficult content... Loot incentive to challenge more difficult content.
The Epic Gianthold System worked fine.

The problem came when Casual/Solo players cried they were being excluded from getting the good stuff because they cant run harder content and wanted equal access to the same loot because they are paying customers too.
They didn't want inferior rewards for easier content, they wanted the best of the best without having to work their way up to it and they want it now.
Their argument was that EE players should be happy to run EE for the challenge not the reward.

Dev's cowed to the masses and gave an easy option to access the best of the best loot.

What's worse is all the BTA stuff from orchard and 3BC. With Gianthold and Shadowfail even if I was done looking for loot for my personal usage there was always the hunt for sell able loot that was fun.

Now, if you're now looking for XP there's no reason to be logged in.

[Gremmlynn]

Wouldn't simply removing 20th lists and setting the drop rates accordingly pretty much solve the issue? If stuff drops rarely on normal, occasionally on hard and regularly on elite with no automatically on 20th completion, it would seem to allow everyone a chance at loot while taking away the workaround to running harder difficulties for a better chance.

[walkin_dude]

Wouldn't simply removing 20th lists and setting the drop rates accordingly pretty much solve the issue? If stuff drops rarely on normal, occasionally on hard and regularly on elite with no automatically on 20th completion, it would seem to allow everyone a chance at loot while taking away the workaround to running harder difficulties for a better chance.

You would think that, but there would undoubtedly be an outcry because you don't get both.

But it's still all about the foray chronometer sidestep.

[Monkey-Boy]

Wouldn't simply removing 20th lists and setting the drop rates accordingly pretty much solve the issue? If stuff drops rarely on normal, occasionally on hard and regularly on elite with no automatically on 20th completion, it would seem to allow everyone a chance at loot while taking away the workaround to running harder difficulties for a better chance.

What about having . . .

Normal = 1
Hard = 2
Elite = 3

Regarding 20th completions? 10 hard or 6 and 2/3 elite runs gets to a 20th?

[bartharok]

At most 1/1.5/2

[Monkey-Boy]

At most 1/1.5/2

TomAto/Tomato.

[Gremmlynn]

What about having . . .

Normal = 1
Hard = 2
Elite = 3

Regarding 20th completions? 10 hard or 6 and 2/3 elite runs gets to a 20th?Well that would cut down bypass usage, but would just make difficulty selected based on completion time on a quest by quest basis. If hard took much more than twice as long or elite much more than three times as long, normal would still be run.

[Monkey-Boy]

Well that would cut down bypass usage, but would just make difficulty selected based on completion time on a quest by quest basis. If hard took much more than twice as long or elite much more than three times as long, normal would still be run.

Your point being?

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have drop-rates that weren't horrific.

[janave]

TF was too much jump in power, they needed to adjust drop rates accordingly, even tier2 is trivializing 90% of the alternatives.

But i agree with other raids and general droprate, the 1%,1.5%,2% is just a bad reward system.

Saga point system is vastly superior where the points would decided the loot choices you get.

Examples:
10 x EE run - full list of gear choices + huge renown token 50k
15 x EH run - full list of gear choices + big renown token 25k
20 x EN run - 80% of the choices (the majority)

The idea would be to give you the option to get your loot list whenever you reach a mark.

3 EE +1EN run = a list containing 30% of the stuff
6EH +2EN...

etc etc

I just thrown in random numbers, the point is that you could "cash out" much sooner, with taking the risk of a shorter reward choice list.

[bartharok]

TomAto/Tomato.

Balance/Offbalance, more like it.

[JOTMON]

Wouldn't simply removing 20th lists and setting the drop rates accordingly pretty much solve the issue? If stuff drops rarely on normal, occasionally on hard and regularly on elite with no automatically on 20th completion, it would seem to allow everyone a chance at loot while taking away the workaround to running harder difficulties for a better chance.

No thanks.
20th end reward list gives you the chance to get what you are actually after.
There is generally more than 1 item people want and the pure random chance drops in the raids themselves no matter what they do just sucks.
I wouldn't expect to have to run any content more than 60 times to get everything I want from it per toon.

After that, I am running for alts, ingredients, extra's of things that may be interesting.
Heroic abbot was more desirable in the fact that you could get multiples of things like vile blasphemy.
With no non-exclusive clickies in MoD.. there will be some reduced replay for main toons, but the items in here will be wanted for all the alts as well.

[DarthCaedus]

Dev's cowed to the masses and gave an easy option to access the best of the best loot.

This is often suggested but never backed up. The only comments the devs made on the subject is that they had other reasons for not making tiered loot - not because players demanded it. Most likely it has to do with cost as it's easier to make 1 item vs. 3.

Also, the current system is how the game always was. There was a brief period of time when feather was in charge of loot and he created tiered loot. The concept really went away with him more than anything else.

[DarthCaedus]

Despite the comments about people wanting challenge - it's fairly hard to organize an EE raid except the easy ones like FOT or the older raids. The real problem is that people don't want to deal with others not pulling their weight and would prefer completion to a messy and longer run. This only applies to the most recent 3 raids - most anything else can be run on EE without much of a problem.

It's just no fun to spend time trying to convince people to run the 3 newest raids EE only to have it fail because 2 people disconnect or experience lag at the wrong time.

[JOTMON]

This is often suggested but never backed up. The only comments the devs made on the subject is that they had other reasons for not making tiered loot - not because players demanded it. Most likely it has to do with cost as it's easier to make 1 item vs. 3.

Also, the current system is how the game always was. There was a brief period of time when feather was in charge of loot and he created tiered loot. The concept really went away with him more than anything else.

It doesn't need to be backed up. it is self evident.
Epic Necro on Normal and Elite .. Named items are the same.
The Epic Elite versions are no different and Mythic items drop on Normal and in the End chain reward list (just a smaller drop rate chance).


Most likely it has to do with cost as it's easier to make 1 item vs. 3.

it is laughable that this is the reason you believe they didn't make tiered loot.

The mechanics of the loot design already exist... What additional cost? copy template. change# slot in reward table. It doesn't involve new artistic design and creation.

[JOTMON]

Despite the comments about people wanting challenge - it's fairly hard to organize an EE raid except the easy ones like FOT or the older raids. The real problem is that people don't want to deal with others not pulling their weight and would prefer completion to a messy and longer run. This only applies to the most recent 3 raids - most anything else can be run on EE without much of a problem.

It's just no fun to spend time trying to convince people to run the 3 newest raids EE only to have it fail because 2 people disconnect or experience lag at the wrong time.

Lag can be quite frustrating, especially when it hits at the critical points.

EE raids are fun, but it is discouraging to see many players are no longer interested in running EE content because there is no incentive to do so.
The lack of reward compared to just cakewalking normals for relatively same chances at the same loot gives no motivation to try harder difficulty.
It is a resource drain, and requires a lot more focus, dedication and preparation to scale up your game to challenge harder difficulty.

It is a bad sign when a pug joins and is talking about staying in his levelling destiny to get XP.
EE is supposed to be challenging and players should be prepped and geared and ready to be at their best.
Anyone joining an EE party shouldn't have to be told to be in their best destiny and have all their supplies stocked up.

This has forced players to turn to channels and guilds and exclude many LFM options
Which in some cases is unfortunate, as it creates a divide between players.
Many new players cant get groups together to form raids and generally perform abysmally trying to run a EE raid with a full PUG group of players where no one knows the other players and are not working together effectively to accomplish the goal.

We still run EE raids, but rarely open them up outside of channels, and in most cases will shortman the raid before bringing along deadweight that may actually hinder the party instead of contribute to it.
on occasion LFMs will be put up to fill out the party and this is an opportunity for players to show their worth.
That said.. Players that show themselves to be able to be prepared, listen to instructions, follow assigned tasks, know their role.... will find themselves invited to channels and future raids.. those that dont... wont...

[BigErkyKid]

TF was too much jump in power, they needed to adjust drop rates accordingly, even tier2 is trivializing 90% of the alternatives.


This. New stuff completely overshadows older items regularly.

Examples:

- Old epic items
- Most CITW weapons
- Shadowsight
- Dun robar rings

Or simply does not cut it and it is never interesting.

Examples

- Most of the loot from FoT
- The sword from sable

While some people defend that higher level items need to be more powerful, I completely disagree. In epics, stuff should be designed as an end game where multiple combinations of items are viable.

Right now, eNecro gear is easily best in slot for most builds. This covers googles, boots, belts, head, trinket, perhaps even gloves. Before that TF weapons became the best possible weapons universally. Not niche weapons, or solid weapons, but best without doubt.

This, for me, means that effectively I have abandoned the loot grind. I get what I know is easy to get and forget about incredibly hard to get things. Why bother? It will be outdated soon.

In addition, I think it is far more interesting to have niche loot that universally good one. Having to make tough choices with loot is fun, knowing there is best in slot for everything not so much. At least for me.

[AtomicMew]

This. New stuff completely overshadows older items regularly.

Examples:

- Old epic items
- Most CITW weapons
- Shadowsight
- Dun robar rings

Or simply does not cut it and it is never interesting.

Examples

- Most of the loot from FoT
- The sword from sable

While some people defend that higher level items need to be more powerful, I completely disagree. In epics, stuff should be designed as an end game where multiple combinations of items are viable.

Right now, eNecro gear is easily best in slot for most builds. This covers googles, boots, belts, head, trinket, perhaps even gloves. Before that TF weapons became the best possible weapons universally. Not niche weapons, or solid weapons, but best without doubt.

This, for me, means that effectively I have abandoned the loot grind. I get what I know is easy to get and forget about incredibly hard to get things. Why bother? It will be outdated soon.

In addition, I think it is far more interesting to have niche loot that universally good one. Having to make tough choices with loot is fun, knowing there is best in slot for everything not so much. At least for me.

I completely agree with this post. I don't think there should be any EE-only raid loot (e.g., draconic gems) because that will just create an environment of elitism and drama of the old days, which wasn't fun for 90% of the player base. What's needed very badly now is gear diversity and an actual marketplace. People need to be able to trade gear to have incentive to continue to run content and people need to have to make tough choices when it comes to gearing out. Currently, everyone just goes for thunderholme and necropolis gear to almost complete exclusion of everything else, and that is just wrong.

Best in slot BtA gear means people will farm for loot exactly until they pick up the item they want and then stop forever.

I think incrementally more powerful gear but extremely rare gear (i.e. mythcs) are a great idea, but is sort of pointless if people are unable to trade for these items.

Also, raids should drop a few astral shards. This would increase the longevity of the raid tremendously and allow non-dupers to compete at least somewhat on the market. Perhaps 1/2/5 on EN/EH/EE. Does anyone else find it ridiculous that the de facto currency doesn't even drop in game?

[fmalfeas]

If there was more niche loot, with my severe alt-itis, I'd probably raid more. What I usually see when I look at it is like one item that screams for one of my characters, or a future build of that character, and everything else is so 'general' or stereotypical that I either don't care, or can do close enough without grinding the **** out of raids. Thunderholme is good, because I can customize for builds, even strange ones. I have a falchion with Wrath of Shadows and +100 potency that was expressly made for EChrono, for example. (I want Epic Charged Gauntlets.) Shroud is outstanding, even if the gear didn't have the ML so low, just because of how many different things can be made. My main refuses to ever take off his ConOpp helm at any level he can wear it, I love that thing so much. My only complaint about Shroud is that I have to run Sleeping Dust every life to flag for it, and I LOATHE that quest.

Master Artificer/Lord of Blades would be awesome...the gear really is quite good, some of it amazing, some of it you can't even find another version...but the explorers to get to them every time utterly kills some very fun raiding. Yes, I don't normally like raids, but I had huge fun in Lord of Blades. if not for that wretched explorer slog, I'd probably burn bypasses running it.

The tiered loot, I never really minded. Even though I don't tend to do EE, what I could get was usually good enough for what I was doing. The one place I minded it was Druid's Curse, and that wasn't due to the tiers, but rather the way the chain works. Drop rates so low that you count on the chain list to eventually get you what you want. But if you want an epic item, you're gonna grind for quite a while, particularly if you want Ivy Wraps. Reverse the issue with High Road, where instead it's 'fat chance' if you want a heroic version.

I do, however, feel that there is an area where tiering should never occur if they bring it back. Search/Spot/Disable Device items. Let the trappers have their skill bonuses so that they aren't liabilities or pikers on EE runs. Instead of tiering those, instead the tiered versions of the items could have, say, EN - Camoflauge clicky. EH - Clicky now pops Camo and the ranger/druid move silently buff. EE - Now it does both of those, and for 3 minutes, gives you Hide in Plain Sight, even if you're not a shadowdancer, so you can stealth again mid-combat. Or reverse the progression, so it always lets the assassin try more stabbies, but as the item gets better, the dagger-junkie gets bigger bonuses for dropping out of sight.

[janave]

If there was more niche loot, with my severe alt-itis, I'd probably raid more. What I usually see when I look at it is like one item that screams for one of my characters, or a future build of that character, and everything else is so 'general' or stereotypical that I either don't care, or can do close enough without grinding the **** out of raids. Thunderholme is good, because I can customize for builds, even strange ones. I have a falchion with Wrath of Shadows and +100 potency that was expressly made for EChrono, for example. (I want Epic Charged Gauntlets.) Shroud is outstanding, even if the gear didn't have the ML so low, just because of how many different things can be made. My main refuses to ever take off his ConOpp helm at any level he can wear it, I love that thing so much. My only complaint about Shroud is that I have to run Sleeping Dust every life to flag for it, and I LOATHE that quest.

Master Artificer/Lord of Blades would be awesome...the gear really is quite good, some of it amazing, some of it you can't even find another version...but the explorers to get to them every time utterly kills some very fun raiding. Yes, I don't normally like raids, but I had huge fun in Lord of Blades. if not for that wretched explorer slog, I'd probably burn bypasses running it.

The tiered loot, I never really minded. Even though I don't tend to do EE, what I could get was usually good enough for what I was doing. The one place I minded it was Druid's Curse, and that wasn't due to the tiers, but rather the way the chain works. Drop rates so low that you count on the chain list to eventually get you what you want. But if you want an epic item, you're gonna grind for quite a while, particularly if you want Ivy Wraps. Reverse the issue with High Road, where instead it's 'fat chance' if you want a heroic version.

I do, however, feel that there is an area where tiering should never occur if they bring it back. Search/Spot/Disable Device items. Let the trappers have their skill bonuses so that they aren't liabilities or pikers on EE runs. Instead of tiering those, instead the tiered versions of the items could have, say, EN - Camoflauge clicky. EH - Clicky now pops Camo and the ranger/druid move silently buff. EE - Now it does both of those, and for 3 minutes, gives you Hide in Plain Sight, even if you're not a shadowdancer, so you can stealth again mid-combat. Or reverse the progression, so it always lets the assassin try more stabbies, but as the item gets better, the dagger-junkie gets bigger bonuses for dropping out of sight.

Yeah raid loot should not be about offering +11stats 2 or 3 times, it should be about special perks and whatnot, in that respect some of the old loot is superior. I like raid crafting, shroud, alchemical, but TF i am not really impressed with.

[Wizza]

I ran 60 MoDs with my Sorcerer.

Will never step into that raid anymore. Raid is extremely boring, not fun for (my) caster, EE offers no incentives, +6 Tomes can be got on Epic Normal during a week loot in regular quests. There is simply no reason for me to run that raid anymore.

Same goes for necropolis quests. Once I get my Belt, I'll simply forget about them. They even killed trading in this game, which was one of the few reasons we used to run EE stuff in the first place.

[DarthCaedus]

Lag can be quite frustrating, especially when it hits at the critical points.

EE raids are fun, but it is discouraging to see many players are no longer interested in running EE content because there is no incentive to do so.
The lack of reward compared to just cakewalking normals for relatively same chances at the same loot gives no motivation to try harder difficulty.
It is a resource drain, and requires a lot more focus, dedication and preparation to scale up your game to challenge harder difficulty.

It is a bad sign when a pug joins and is talking about staying in his levelling destiny to get XP.
EE is supposed to be challenging and players should be prepped and geared and ready to be at their best.
Anyone joining an EE party shouldn't have to be told to be in their best destiny and have all their supplies stocked up.

This has forced players to turn to channels and guilds and exclude many LFM options
Which in some cases is unfortunate, as it creates a divide between players.
Many new players cant get groups together to form raids and generally perform abysmally trying to run a EE raid with a full PUG group of players where no one knows the other players and are not working together effectively to accomplish the goal.

We still run EE raids, but rarely open them up outside of channels, and in most cases will shortman the raid before bringing along deadweight that may actually hinder the party instead of contribute to it.
on occasion LFMs will be put up to fill out the party and this is an opportunity for players to show their worth.
That said.. Players that show themselves to be able to be prepared, listen to instructions, follow assigned tasks, know their role.... will find themselves invited to channels and future raids.. those that dont... wont...

It's not the incentive and never was. People don't like messy raids and never did except as a one-time achievement. Certainly not for farming.

The 4x better rewards vs. normal is a decent enough incentive because it doesn't take 4x the time to complete. People just don't like the people problems that come with EE. Half the party dies and immediately someone will dc and never return. A person dies a few times and rage quits.

EE raids are not the issue, it's the most recent 3 EE raids that are just not fun to run because it requires 11 other people pulling their weight and it doesn't happen often enough.

People take the path of least resistance. Once people master all the tricks and accumulate more power from future updates people will be running these on EE no problem just like FOT or CITW became easy several updates ago. For now most people don't want to waste their pots and deal with the newest 3 raids on EE.

[DarthCaedus]

It doesn't need to be backed up. it is self evident.
Epic Necro on Normal and Elite .. Named items are the same.
The Epic Elite versions are no different and Mythic items drop on Normal and in the End chain reward list (just a smaller drop rate chance).


it is laughable that this is the reason you believe they didn't make tiered loot.

The mechanics of the loot design already exist... What additional cost? copy template. change# slot in reward table. It doesn't involve new artistic design and creation.

What is laughable is that the devs already commented on this and you chose to ignore it.

There are many armchair developers on these forums and their comments often explain why they are commenting about programming on forums for free instead of actually programming for money.

[kmoustakas]

Personal oppinion here but upgradable loot is awesome. Tiered loot is the second worst idea ever. The worst idea ever was changing the random loot system

[JOTMON]

It's not the incentive and never was. People don't like messy raids and never did except as a one-time achievement. Certainly not for farming.

The 4x better rewards vs. normal is a decent enough incentive because it doesn't take 4x the time to complete. People just don't like the people problems that come with EE. Half the party dies and immediately someone will dc and never return. A person dies a few times and rage quits.

EE raids are not the issue, it's the most recent 3 EE raids that are just not fun to run because it requires 11 other people pulling their weight and it doesn't happen often enough.

People take the path of least resistance. Once people master all the tricks and accumulate more power from future updates people will be running these on EE no problem just like FOT or CITW became easy several updates ago. For now most people don't want to waste their pots and deal with the newest 3 raids on EE.

Its the only incentive,... people are not running this for the storyline or the XP
What other reason would you have to run EE content beyond once other than Loot, Raids don't give a decent rate of XP, Favor is covered in the first run.. helping a friend.. perhaps.

You say it is 4x better loot,.. in practice a single digit% low drop rate is still a low drop rate.
4x normal 15 minute runs with no chance of failure and incremental 20ths blows away 30 Min+ EE runs with everyone co-ordinated, prepped/focussed with high probablility of failure and heavy resource usage..
Look at the runs that have been done so far .. I see 6 completions on EE showing in the forums.. there may be a couple more out there.
.and yet there are a lot of players that have already run 60+ completions on normal... most of those have never done any difficulty beyond normal.
No one is farming this raid on EE for a miniscule % increase in loot drops and there is no motivation to run EH whatsoever.

I agree people will take the path of least resistance.. to the best reward.

We ran it fresh on live EE exclusively when it first came out because it was new and we didn't want to spoil it for ourselves.. and got our asses handed to us.. as any new Raid should.
reformed strategies, gear.. took a few tries.. and finally got it done a few days later.
Haven't even seen a EE group up since....I see lots of Normal rinse/repeat runs

At level highest difficulty content is challenging, as people get beyond those and power level old content like Shroud they obviously become easier.
Elite Shroud at level was a beast of a fight on first lifers..(LFMS of.. link your DR breakers, have at least 250hp were common even for normal Shroud runs)
before they had the extra chests in Shroud was rarely run beyond normal and even then a lot were not completing.. many were exiting at the endfight and rinse /repeating.
. on Level 28's with Epic destinies/TR's.. no problem.. bring whatever..
Elite to completion for the extra chests made it worthwhile to finish... Shroud incremental 20's for a cleansing stone.. made it worthwhile..


What's your motivation to run MoD on EH or EE. .

[Monkey-Boy]

What's your motivation to run MoD on EH or EE. .

To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!

[Wipey]

I'd join every EE raid ( Fot, Thunderholme, ADQ, whatever ), even though I don't really need anything anymore. Even EH if I like some people there. EN is epitome of what's wrong with the game now.
I really dislike Mod though. Knocked out 40 completions on both casters. Might do some more for an item or two on other toons, but only until I get the loot, then it's dead to me.
Guess that's a bit hypocritical.

[DarthCaedus]

Its the only incentive,... people are not running this for the storyline or the XP
What other reason would you have to run EE content beyond once other than Loot, Raids don't give a decent rate of XP, Favor is covered in the first run.. helping a friend.. perhaps.

You say it is 4x better loot,.. in practice a single digit% low drop rate is still a low drop rate.
4x normal 15 minute runs with no chance of failure and incremental 20ths blows away 30 Min+ EE runs with everyone co-ordinated, prepped/focussed with high probablility of failure and heavy resource usage..
Look at the runs that have been done so far .. I see 6 completions on EE showing in the forums.. there may be a couple more out there.
.and yet there are a lot of players that have already run 60+ completions on normal... most of those have never done any difficulty beyond normal.
No one is farming this raid on EE for a miniscule % increase in loot drops and there is no motivation to run EH whatsoever.

I agree people will take the path of least resistance.. to the best reward.

We ran it fresh on live EE exclusively when it first came out because it was new and we didn't want to spoil it for ourselves.. and got our asses handed to us.. as any new Raid should.
reformed strategies, gear.. took a few tries.. and finally got it done a few days later.
Haven't even seen a EE group up since....I see lots of Normal rinse/repeat runs

At level highest difficulty content is challenging, as people get beyond those and power level old content like Shroud they obviously become easier.
Elite Shroud at level was a beast of a fight on first lifers..(LFMS of.. link your DR breakers, have at least 250hp were common even for normal Shroud runs)
before they had the extra chests in Shroud was rarely run beyond normal and even then a lot were not completing.. many were exiting at the endfight and rinse /repeating.
. on Level 28's with Epic destinies/TR's.. no problem.. bring whatever..
Elite to completion for the extra chests made it worthwhile to finish... Shroud incremental 20's for a cleansing stone.. made it worthwhile..


What's your motivation to run MoD on EH or EE. .

My motivation is to have fun and I am not the type of person that has more fun by denying others their fun.

The system needs to work for a wide cross-section of players while realizing it's not possible to make everyone happy.

[Enoach]

With the implementation of the augment system that allows players to better customize/consolidate I was really hoping they would use this in the tiered system much more then they have.

My problem with the Normal/Hard/Elite Tier system is more the issue that you cannot upgrade them. I like the Fall of Truth raid gear because of the upgrade options. This allows all players the ability to make the item slightly better with those running Normal having to work at acquiring ingredients to upgrade to the highest tier and those that run on Elite getting the highest tier right away.

Next the Tiers should bring on the customization/consolidation of the augment system. Now augments themselves should be behind their counterparts which comes on the gear and should be a trade off of more consolidation. Basically I don't think we need to have the highest ones as augments, but reasonable ones. I also think we need more things in the augment system.

Next I would like to see Craftable Augments for Clear/Red/Blue/Yellow slots allowing both a prefix/suffix and raising the ML appropriately of the item it is slotted into. This would add even more flexability to customize raid loot as it gains augment slots and would also revitalize Cannieth Crafting.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Personal oppinion here but upgradable loot is awesome. Tiered loot is the second worst idea ever. The worst idea ever was changing the random loot system

I like the model in fall of truth, where it is tiered and upgradable.
So if you run EE you get tier 3 loot,
If you do EH you get tier 2 loot and have to upgrade it to tier 3
If you do EN you get tier 1 loot and have to upgrade it to tier 2, then tier 3

[Monkey-Boy]

My problem with the Normal/Hard/Elite Tier system is more the issue that you cannot upgrade them.



So what? You could still trade for stuff.

I've gotten all the loot i need our of the Orchard quests. There is no reason for me ever to run them again. Epic Gianthold had me busy for almost a year.

[Singular]

Personal oppinion here but upgradable loot is awesome. Tiered loot is the second worst idea ever. The worst idea ever was changing the random loot system

Yes, but tiered upgradable loot is awesome - like what FOT offers. That way, anyone can get to the best loot.

[axel15810]

Yes, but tiered upgradable loot is awesome - like what FOT offers. That way, anyone can get to the best loot.

Agreed.

FoT was awesome. Generally I think the mechanic that higher difficulties allow you to get the same loot, but much faster is the right approach.

The current system that Mark of Death has is not this way. It's faster to get the loot banging out normals - this is a problem. There is no reason to run anything but epic normal other than fun.

And I agree 1000000% that we should nerf raid timers if it means we get reasonable drop rates again.

Although because of duping (and the seemingly inability to stop it) I think we should move away from any system that requires ingredients to upgrade. Or anything that stacks in inventory.

[Singular]

Agreed.

FoT was awesome. Generally I think the mechanic that higher difficulties allow you to get the same loot, but much faster is the right approach.

The current system that Mark of Death has is not this way. It's faster to get the loot banging out normals - this is a problem. There is no reason to run anything but epic normal other than fun.

And I agree 1000000% that we should nerf raid timers if it means we get reasonable drop rates again.

Although because of duping (and the seemingly inability to stop it) I think we should move away from any system that requires ingredients to upgrade. Or anything that stacks in inventory.

Totally off topic, but why can't the game programmers fix duping? Is the fix too expensive?

[axel15810]

Totally off topic, but why can't the game programmers fix duping? Is the fix too expensive?

I'm not a techy type by any means. But from what I have heard it's because there's just so many possible ways to dupe, devs can't fix all of them. It's not just a matter of fixing one thing. In games like DDO where you are connected to a server there's probably always going to be a way to intentionally DC yourself and trick the server into duping items...it's just a matter of finding them.

I think duping has become big because the community for a long time wasn't aware you could do it. But after the anniversary bag disaster which made it very easy to dupe for a period of time I think a lot of players have gotten addicted to it and don't have a desire to play the game honestly anymore.

[Oxarhamar]

This. New stuff completely overshadows older items regularly.

Examples:

- Old epic items
- Most CITW weapons
- Shadowsight
- Dun robar rings

Or simply does not cut it and it is never interesting.

Examples

- Most of the loot from FoT
- The sword from sable

While some people defend that higher level items need to be more powerful, I completely disagree. In epics, stuff should be designed as an end game where multiple combinations of items are viable.

Right now, eNecro gear is easily best in slot for most builds. This covers googles, boots, belts, head, trinket, perhaps even gloves. Before that TF weapons became the best possible weapons universally. Not niche weapons, or solid weapons, but best without doubt.

This, for me, means that effectively I have abandoned the loot grind. I get what I know is easy to get and forget about incredibly hard to get things. Why bother? It will be outdated soon.

In addition, I think it is far more interesting to have niche loot that universally good one. Having to make tough choices with loot is fun, knowing there is best in slot for everything not so much. At least for me.



Most builds maybe, but only 3 items out of Necro are even remotely interesting to my Character. With the amount of item swapping and acquiring that would be needed to fit them in they will be looted and likely sent to live in the bank forever since those harder to acquire items than haven't been outclassed by this silly mostly melee loot are still best in slot.

Not a single helm is interesting.

[Jumiyo]

I ran 60 MoDs with my Sorcerer.

Will never step into that raid anymore. Raid is extremely boring, not fun for (my) caster, EE offers no incentives, +6 Tomes can be got on Epic Normal during a week loot in regular quests. There is simply no reason for me to run that raid anymore.

Same goes for necropolis quests. Once I get my Belt, I'll simply forget about them. They even killed trading in this game, which was one of the few reasons we used to run EE stuff in the first place.

Totally in same boat. Why run it any more? Ran it 120 times. Only reason is maybe for the master taps but that's it. LFM for it is already dead.

I though they killed off the "trading" in order to try close off the "DUPING" that was also killing this game -- so we don't see 100 x Epic Litany of the Dead selling for 10 Astral shards....

[Paleus]

The problem came when Casual/Solo players cried they were being excluded from getting the good stuff because they cant run harder content and wanted equal access to the same loot because they are paying customers too.
They didn't want inferior rewards for easier content, they wanted the best of the best without having to work their way up to it and they want it now.
Their argument was that EE players should be happy to run EE for the challenge not the reward.

Dev's cowed to the masses and gave an easy option to access the best of the best loot.

While it can provide a personally rewarding feeling to blame casuals, thereby implicitly stating one's own superiority, this is not a self-evident cause. Designing one piece of loot rather than three pieces of loot is less costly. Using item drops rather than ingredient drops is less costly because you don't have to overlay crafting on top of it, and also less dupable. Lastly, having a quick and guaranteed path to a piece of gear (especially when you want multiple) through 20 completions can provide players an incentive to purchase raid bypasses timers (duping fiascos aside).

To me, it feels like Turbine is more motivated by monetization and cost cutting than it is in listening to the mythical scape-goat "casuals." Blaming some 'other' may feel better, but I think it distracts from the root of problem.

[Noctus]

What's worse is all the BTA stuff from orchard and 3BC. With Gianthold and Shadowfail even if I was done looking for loot for my personal usage there was always the hunt for sell able loot that was fun.

/ditto.


Keept me running content for much longer then content whch stops after my personal use stuff is completed. Selling EE Gianthold named items was a good source of AS. And thus a great motivation to run content on a difficulty i can not sleepwalk through.

[JOTMON]

With the implementation of the augment system that allows players to better customize/consolidate I was really hoping they would use this in the tiered system much more then they have.

My problem with the Normal/Hard/Elite Tier system is more the issue that you cannot upgrade them. I like the Fall of Truth raid gear because of the upgrade options. This allows all players the ability to make the item slightly better with those running Normal having to work at acquiring ingredients to upgrade to the highest tier and those that run on Elite getting the highest tier right away.

Next the Tiers should bring on the customization/consolidation of the augment system. Now augments themselves should be behind their counterparts which comes on the gear and should be a trade off of more consolidation. Basically I don't think we need to have the highest ones as augments, but reasonable ones. I also think we need more things in the augment system.

Next I would like to see Craftable Augments for Clear/Red/Blue/Yellow slots allowing both a prefix/suffix and raising the ML appropriately of the item it is slotted into. This would add even more flexability to customize raid loot as it gains augment slots and would also revitalize Cannieth Crafting.

FoT was an excellent model of how raid loot should be. (without getting into the best system.. shroud.. nuff said...)

I would love to see craftable augments.
~crafting in general has been neglected for too long.

Would also like to see a way to convert each Tier of Shroud crafted shards into augments.

[JOTMON]

While it can provide a personally rewarding feeling to blame casuals, thereby implicitly stating one's own superiority, this is not a self-evident cause. .

Troll post with a underhanded personal attack.
I guess this gives you that rewarding feeling.


Designing one piece of loot rather than three pieces of loot is less costly.

how so. the loot itself still has a 2 tier unlocking mechanism using tapestries from two different area's... how would this be more costly than using the FoT tiered loot system.



Using item drops rather than ingredient drops is less costly because you don't have to overlay crafting on top of it, and also less dupable. Lastly, having a quick and guaranteed path to a piece of gear (especially when you want multiple) through 20 completions can provide players an incentive to purchase raid bypasses timers (duping fiascos aside).

which is it.. to make things less dupable or to sell raid bypasses ignoring the dupable factor...
Duping is a separate issue from everything and trying to use that as a reason for anything is irrelevant.
As far as I am concerned.. Raid Bypass timers should never have existed and any existing bypasses should be deleted from the game.
..players can request a refund for purchased ones after a exhaustive account review by DDO staff.



To me, it feels like Turbine is more motivated by monetization and cost cutting than it is in listening to the mythical scape-goat "casuals." Blaming some 'other' may feel better, but I think it distracts from the root of problem.

Turbine selling out to WB seems to me to be the core problem.
WB has no vested interest in Turbine beyond the $ it can bleed out if it.
WB doesn't care about the game itself or its employees its all about the $$ it can squeeze out if its acquisitions.

[Oxarhamar]

Totally in same boat. Why run it any more? Ran it 120 times. Only reason is maybe for the master taps but that's it. LFM for it is already dead.

I though they killed off the "trading" in order to try close off the "DUPING" that was also killing this game -- so we don't see 100 x Epic Litany of the Dead selling for 10 Astral shards....

Duping mostly effects ingredients etc. not full items so duping if the taps would be a raid killer.

They killed trading and tiered loot thanks to player complaints.

Say "Thank You players for ruining the game"