Caught in the Web is now even more awful

[Sebastrd]

I don't know if the changes to Caught in the Web were intentional, but they made an already terrible raid even worse.

Apparently, Lolth has a new "Arcane Shockwave" AOE attack with no save that deals 500+ untyped? damage on EE (so no MRR or Evasion). Her range has also extended so that she can hit you at the res shrine all the way from the end fight.

There was nothing fun about the raid to begin with. It's just a long slog that requires killing everything twice and with some painfully long and poorly written plot exposition at the end. Did it really need an update?

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I don't know if the changes to Caught in the Web were intentional, but they made an already terrible raid even worse.

Apparently, Lolth has a new "Arcane Shockwave" AOE attack with no save that deals 500+ untyped? damage on EE (so no MRR or Evasion). Her range has also extended so that she can hit you at the res shrine all the way from the end fight.

There was nothing fun about the raid to begin with. It's just a long slog that requires killing everything twice and with some painfully long and poorly written plot exposition at the end. Did it really need an update?

Didn't she always use that? I'm not sure about the name or the fact that it is AOE, but i remember getting hit in 500hp+ range often in that raid.

[Scrabbler]

Maybe Arcane Shockwave just feels more noticeable now, because all the other damage has been lowered by PRR and MRR. Damages that don't apply either of those have been relatively buffed.

[Sebastrd]

Okay, so after doing some research (anecdotal evidence, but from reliable sources), there is definitely something wrong with the end fight of CitW. Lolth spams arcane shockwave and her SP drain attack to the point that it's nearly impossible to take her down on EE, and even in the event of a successful attempt the drain on resources is massive. My question is if this is working as intended, or an unintentional change in the recent update.

[IronClan]

they have made mob that cast spam their best spells a lot more in the last 3 or 4 updates.

I am 100% sure they didn't intentionally change CitW as they surely must polish the loot before they spend any time changing a raid that has almost no one playing it.

Why spend time on something no one bothers with?

Oh wait e3BC... okay maybe you're right who knows :D

[BigErkyKid]

I duoed EH last night for the melee challenge and she kept blasting us to pieces with her rapid fire of the beam.

There was nothing we could really do but to run to cover every 3-5 seconds of fighting hoping she wouldn't catch us while we dived for cover.

Damage was around 350-450 per shot and she really spawms it.

We had a ton of deaths before we could bring her down.

[Llewndyn]

I duoed EH last night for the melee challenge and she kept blasting us to pieces with her rapid fire of the beam.

There was nothing we could really do but to run to cover every 3-5 seconds of fighting hoping she wouldn't catch us while we dived for cover.

Damage was around 350-450 per shot and she really spawms it.

We had a ton of deaths before we could bring her down.

It will make it trivial to beat her ;)

On a serious note if that's true that sucks, and I might keep my streak of no CITWs alive for a bit longer.

[MagicBlue]

I duoed EH last night for the melee challenge and she kept blasting us to pieces with her rapid fire of the beam.

There was nothing we could really do but to run to cover every 3-5 seconds of fighting hoping she wouldn't catch us while we dived for cover.

Damage was around 350-450 per shot and she really spawms it.

We had a ton of deaths before we could bring her down.


Isn't Lolth a goddess?
Do you expect that she hands you tea with cookies?

[BigErkyKid]

Isn't Lolth a goddess?
Do you expect that she hands you tea with cookies?

To start with, I don't think a raid should be completable by fewer than 10 people regardless of the difficulty. But the game is what it is.

The discussion here is whether the mechanics of that fight have changed.

[Powskier]

is she cursing also ?or spamming more damage now only?

[BigErkyKid]

is she cursing also ?or spamming more damage now only?

both, its a deadly combo.

Its usually the damage beam BOOM BOOM BOOM, curse, SP drain...she really spams those.

[schelsullivan]

We got a EE finished last night on Argo. It was brutal but doable. We had probably 30-40 deaths. I was on my swashbuckler Vivance. I used 6 pots and all were wasted cause I was drained immediately. Im sure lots used more pots than that. Im not very experienced at the raids so I cant add much by way of strategy. We had a great (and patient) leader and over all great group. Thanks for all the coms guys!

[bsquishwizzy]

Well...there are people saying that DDO is too easy. This is the end result.

[Takllin]

Heh it was almost 90 deaths at the end. I can't complain though I got a free completion :D

Would be nice to fix this though, people still like running raids on EE and making them a drag because of effects that aren't WAI does not make it enticing to run...

[BigErkyKid]

Well...there are people saying that DDO is too easy. This is the end result.

The issue is that you can still do it, it just takes longer.

For me difficulty should not equal dragging on fights like this. It should be something that either you can face or not.

We were flying through the raid EH for the duo melee challenge until we got there (aside from me sucking at dodging the leg kicks) and that part is simply arbitrarily hard.

She tosses those beams and curses and you can't do much about it. Die, hit her some more and repeat. If you are patient, you kill her. If you aren't you go home and fail. Not really my idea of an exciting fight.

[Hafeal]

Not really my idea of an exciting fight.

So what raid do you think has an exciting end fight?

[JOTMON]

So what raid do you think has an exciting end fight?

One that doesn't use cheesey BS mana drain attacks.

[Hobgoblin]

So what raid do you think has an exciting end fight?

shroud von 6 reaver lob

[Hafeal]

One that doesn't use cheesey BS mana drain attacks.

So, the fight is ok but if the mana attack is changed, would it be ok? Just trying to get a sense of what my fellow players are feeling.

Look, my last 2 PUG groups could not finish CiTW on EH; ended up with normal completions. Despite my grudge about Lolth's attacks, the fight was exciting and not boring.




shroud von 6 reaver lob

To me, of those, Shroud and Von are not 'exciting' as the bosses do not move. Now, if Velah could do aerial attacks? Or if Harry could move like the LoB and call in some help? Now we are talking.

To me, LoB is interesting because of his movement. However, it is not exciting because unless you are one of 2 tanks, this raid is fairly boring for more than half the group.

Reaver, assuming you meant Epic, is the most exciting of these 4 for me - something for everyone to do. Even though the "challenge" here may be limited with a strong group - there is always something to do.

[Thayion516]

I think it is a Bug. The Shockwave is not checking Vs MRR at all. Instead it is no saving (not even evasion) and by-passing all defense.

If it is intentional. That's cheesy Turbine. Why do we even have saves or MRR at that point?

[BigErkyKid]

So what raid do you think has an exciting end fight?

Well, something were skill keeps you in the good side of a fine line between success and failure.

The beam is just arbirtrary unavoidable damage combined with healing curses and mana drains and to be honest, you just die and keep going.

I'd be fine if the attack had some warning or way to be dodged a la nurse ratchet or abbot.

I honestly prefer non respawning trash + boss fights, seems you need to manage a chaotic situation (respawning is just silly, for me, if it is respawn as soon as you kill. Feels completely arbirtrary way to increase challenge).

[BigErkyKid]

Look, my last 2 PUG groups could not finish CiTW on EH; ended up with normal completions. Despite my grudge about Lolth's attacks, the fight was exciting and not boring.

.

what exactly was exciting about it? She doesn't move and trash respawns are very manageable (I am talking about the second belly fight).

If you die you can just go back there. its just mana drain + unavoidable beams and curses.

I am just curious, why do you like it?

[kumagnificent]

Some people like challenges to their games.

The irritating thing about this raid are the unavoidable claws that throw you off and kill you instantly. The death bit is not annoying - it's the unavoidable bit. And it's random. Unavoidable random death that lets you hike a good distance.

Minus that, it's still a challenge. And I like a challenge. For everyone who wants everything to be absurdly easy - I respectfully suggest kobold assault on heroic casual. =)

[JOTMON]

So, the fight is ok but if the mana attack is changed, would it be ok? Just trying to get a sense of what my fellow players are feeling.

Look, my last 2 PUG groups could not finish CiTW on EH; ended up with normal completions. Despite my grudge about Lolth's attacks, the fight was exciting and not boring.




The raid it self without the mana drain is not terrible, just long with poor XP.
20k XP on EE no bonuses and high death factor from being thrown off edge.. is just sad...
Von5 is 58k base+70% bonuses for optionals and low death risk. Plus another 10k +25% for von6... both of which combined are done faster than CITW.

CITW does not offer a opportunity to separate and regather to achieve goals like VON5.
Its all about escorting Anna.. because nothing spawns until she gets there.

No clean mechanic for finding/prepping/sycronized killing portal keepers without searching out a large area for any trash mobs
That may not have been killed .. and as a result end up becoming a portalkeeper.
Anna issues.. not going through when barrier drops,... etc...

Commendation drops at the end of it are pretty pitiful .. FoT has a better drop rate and shorter duration raid.

Flagging CITW takes 11 quests to flag not including the 4 to get to Eveningstar.
Nothing else requires that much flagging to get to its perspective raid.

Loot from CITW hasn't aged well. its decent for a very small level duration. but nothing special stands out.
Limited usefulness for a small subset of players..
Clerics for example get screwed on raid loot here.. nothing is useful for a cleric.. who was forced to drank a lot of pots to get the party through the raid.
Resistance to use Anna shrines due to reduction of loot.
No mana regen options.. like beating on eggs in Von6..
Lloth can be difficult to target to do damage on as a melee.

Difficult to avoid ( if even possible) toss of the edge insta-kill

Don't know anything about this lates sonic boom stuff, haven't run the raid in 6 months.. and really don't see any point to even bother.
I got my EE completion out of here, so other than Favor.. there is no desire..

All these factors make the raid more annoying then useful.

[ValariusK]

Increase the base xp of the quest to be greater than Von5 + Von6. Not a lot greater, but greater. It is a higher level raid, it is longer, and it is more difficult. Why shouldn't it be worth more xp?
Increase the drop rate of commendations to equal that of Fall of Truth. BTW, commendations of heroism ought to be reworked to be a currency not a bag item. This would solve a lot of problems with malefactors...say no more, and increase the lifespan of a lot of raids. FOT is higher level, but actually easier than CITW, and a LOT easier to actually get a group for (CITW is a longer road to flag for also, but people run the flag quests all the time for sagas and such).

Do that and you'll see moderately frequent CITW runs, perhaps half as many as VON.

[Hafeal]

what exactly was exciting about it? She doesn't move and trash respawns are very manageable (I am talking about the second belly fight).

If you die you can just go back there. its just mana drain + unavoidable beams and curses.

I am just curious, why do you like it?

I tend to run in full or partial PUGs for raids, which tend to attract newer players or players who don't have multiple past lives or great gear. EH is generally - not always - a challenge, when success is certainly not guaranteed. CiTW is not a frequent lfm on Khyber, so many newer players or casual players who don't raid much, don't know the raid at all or well, are in the runs I am on. With success not guaranteed, it makes runs very interesting and fun as the raid has not been run to death. And, despite Lolth's lack of movement, there is enough trash action that I enjoy it, especially as an old pnper seeing D3 (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DhAEoi0Ogzw/UJBJmkcUbTI/AAAAAAAAESA/2V1_8EnT2XQ/s1600/Vault%2Bof%2Bthe%2BDrow.jpg) and Q1 (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfxldAVPAxwSqo1Mvz9F0qx6kNtgxyr zQym9d_WJDqyMO-Y0Zn0Q) come to life.

Yes, the xp/min, and loot % stink. I hope they change it. And as long as the flagging is, it still does not suck half as much as heroic Abbott.

[Hafeal]

T
All these factors make the raid more annoying then useful.

Good list, I get it.

Some of these points have been brought up before about other raids as well.

I guess, for me, not having run CiTW upteen times, I am not quite as tired/annoyed with it as others have been, especially if you were grinding out the loot. I find Shroud, for example, more annoying now than "exciting." But I loved Shroud once upon a time. After many many runs, now it is just a mindless 20 minutes to ingredient land.

[BigErkyKid]

I tend to run in full or partial PUGs for raids, which tend to attract newer players or players who don't have multiple past lives or great gear. EH is generally - not always - a challenge, when success is certainly not guaranteed. CiTW is not a frequent lfm on Khyber, so many newer players or casual players who don't raid much, don't know the raid at all or well, are in the runs I am on. With success not guaranteed, it makes runs very interesting and fun as the raid has not been run to death. And, despite Lolth's lack of movement, there is enough trash action that I enjoy it, especially as an old pnper seeing D3 (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DhAEoi0Ogzw/UJBJmkcUbTI/AAAAAAAAESA/2V1_8EnT2XQ/s1600/Vault%2Bof%2Bthe%2BDrow.jpg) and Q1 (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfxldAVPAxwSqo1Mvz9F0qx6kNtgxyr zQym9d_WJDqyMO-Y0Zn0Q) come to life.

Yes, the xp/min, and loot % stink. I hope they change it. And as long as the flagging is, it still does not suck half as much as heroic Abbott.

As I said, the parts I disliked particularly are being kicked to death (though there might be a way to avoid that, perhaps) and the 2nd belly fight with the beam+curse+SP drain spam.

My point was that it is NOT challenging when you can complete it, just takes longer. This is the 2nd belly fight. For us, it took as much as all the rest of the raid together. The mechanics are just plain arbirtrary smacks you get and you cannot mitigate in any way. But they don't just blast you and end the raid, rather, you just come back and slowly bring her down. On 2 melees it took freaking forever in EH.

[Llewndyn]

Well...there are people saying that DDO is too easy. This is the end result.

Priceless, +1

Though to get +2 you should then offer to teach them how to get more HPs.

[Postumus]

shroud von 6 reaver lob

Shroud: boss doesn't move much at all (not at all if surrounded). Basically an HP bag beat down.

Von 6: boss doesn't move. Another HP bag beat down.

Reaver: a raid known as "Piker's Fate" is exciting?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I haven't done the raid a lot yet, but I always range her, and I seem to be safe from most of her attacks. (I do have to deal with a lot of her minions though.)

[Thayion516]

The raid it self without the mana drain is not terrible, just long with poor XP.
20k XP on EE no bonuses and high death factor from being thrown off edge.. is just sad...
Von5 is 58k base+70% bonuses for optionals and low death risk. Plus another 10k +25% for von6... both of which combined are done faster than CITW.

CITW does not offer a opportunity to separate and regather to achieve goals like VON5.
Its all about escorting Anna.. because nothing spawns until she gets there.

No clean mechanic for finding/prepping/sycronized killing portal keepers without searching out a large area for any trash mobs
That may not have been killed .. and as a result end up becoming a portalkeeper.
Anna issues.. not going through when barrier drops,... etc...

Commendation drops at the end of it are pretty pitiful .. FoT has a better drop rate and shorter duration raid.

Flagging CITW takes 11 quests to flag not including the 4 to get to Eveningstar.
Nothing else requires that much flagging to get to its perspective raid.

Loot from CITW hasn't aged well. its decent for a very small level duration. but nothing special stands out.
Limited usefulness for a small subset of players..
Clerics for example get screwed on raid loot here.. nothing is useful for a cleric.. who was forced to drank a lot of pots to get the party through the raid.
Resistance to use Anna shrines due to reduction of loot.
No mana regen options.. like beating on eggs in Von6..
Lloth can be difficult to target to do damage on as a melee.

Difficult to avoid ( if even possible) toss of the edge insta-kill

Don't know anything about this lates sonic boom stuff, haven't run the raid in 6 months.. and really don't see any point to even bother.
I got my EE completion out of here, so other than Favor.. there is no desire..

All these factors make the raid more annoying then useful.


Increase the base xp of the quest to be greater than Von5 + Von6. Not a lot greater, but greater. It is a higher level raid, it is longer, and it is more difficult. Why shouldn't it be worth more xp?
Increase the drop rate of commendations to equal that of Fall of Truth. BTW, commendations of heroism ought to be reworked to be a currency not a bag item. This would solve a lot of problems with malefactors...say no more, and increase the lifespan of a lot of raids. FOT is higher level, but actually easier than CITW, and a LOT easier to actually get a group for (CITW is a longer road to flag for also, but people run the flag quests all the time for sagas and such).

Do that and you'll see moderately frequent CITW runs, perhaps half as many as VON.

Also, Put a Chest at each of the Orb Fights and Add a Purple Named. Put a chance of the named weapons in them.

ABSOLUTLY. DEVS PLEASE LISTEN. This COULD be a nice raid.

[Holleyz]

Well...there are people saying that DDO is too easy. This is the end result.

+1 to this. So many threads about the game being too easy. It's only easy for those that have multiple TR lives and all the best gear in the game. Not to mention the knowledge of the quests they have ran hundreds of times.

[96th_Malice]

Didn't she always use that? I'm not sure about the name or the fact that it is AOE, but i remember getting hit in 500hp+ range often in that raid.

For sure it's always been there

[nolifer1]

citw is great raid, used to be ot of fun on ee when cap was 25, i dont know why many people hate that raid, if we talk about the bad raids i point my finger to dq2, too short and need basically no stratedy

[FAQ]

citw is great raid, used to be ot of fun on ee when cap was 25, i dont know why many people hate that raid, if we talk about the bad raids i point my finger to dq2, too short and need basically no stratedy

Too many reason's already listed in this threas, just take your pick :)

For me, it's the SP drain beams. No save, no tell, spamable: just a mechanic to discourage healers to join. And the lag. And babysitting. And weird attack angles at bellybuttons. And the drop rates. And monologues. And NPC piker's who swoop in at the end.

[Wipey]

Did EE on Sunday. After a long time I admit. 50 minutes, few deaths, none to legs, just some to lag near first priestess and two melee deaths in the second beatdown. Byoh, so nothing that a Divine behind pillar couldn't prevent. I must have done hundred pugs on fvs and half of that on Cleric :D Not many reasons these days though.

Still cool, especially for people that need something from there. It's a shame new people do not even try.

[JOTMON]

Just jumped into a eite run for CITW, saw some people I know and figured.. why not..nothing else going on..
Some new issues that didn't used to be there.

2nd Optional didn't spawn an exit portal.. so we all had to jump off the edge and kill ourselves so we could rez at the shrine. no exit from the island without a portal.(ddoor is disabled.in this raid)

Endfight with Lloth.. she spams the mana drain, arcane blast and healing curse.
curse pots is not enough, had to cycle the pot and the spell to keep the curse off just myself...
I was behind a pillar by the orb and had enlarge.... and was still getting spammed by Lloth's attacks.

I could barely drink pots fast enough to heal myself between the spam cycles... it was curse. mana drain. arcane blast. curse.mana drain. arcane blast.. wiped out sp on every mana drain shot.. I had to struggle with aura and bursts while chugging pots.
Lag spikes were constant. people just couldn't heal themselves or anyone else during the lag cycles.. but could still take damage..
and of course there is a death timer for anyone who dies..

We got it done, but definitely no fun.

Whatever they did with the last update screwed CITW.

[Trillea]

I think it is a Bug. The Shockwave is not checking Vs MRR at all. Instead it is no saving (not even evasion) and by-passing all defense.

If it is intentional. That's cheesy Turbine. Why do we even have saves or MRR at that point?

MRR is not supposed to reduce force dmg from what I understand.

[HatsuharuZ]

I've never been happy with CitW... all that running around, and so little to show for it, more often than not. And then they handed out those "Raider's Reward" boxes (which I appreciated), but it kind of killed the raid. Not to mention the low drop rates of Commendations of Heroism, and Lolth's spell point-draining ability.

[Scrabbler]

and Lolth's spell point-draining ability.
They should never give any monster an ability to drain spellpoints.

If they want a monster to mess up someone's spellcasting ability, then it can give you a debuff for 20 seconds of no-casting or 2x spellpoint costs. That would be an interesting way for a monster to prevent casting... a spellpoint drain merely lets you buy your way out by using more pots.

[Highlander]

MRR is not supposed to reduce force dmg from what I understand.

I never noticed that in any documentation.
Why would force be excluded? Is it a known bug?

The only precedent for an exception that I am aware of might be bane damage, otherwise any magical AOE should be affected by MRR?

[Scrabbler]

I never noticed that in any documentation.
The documented definition of MRR is a reduction to damage from acid, sonic, fire, electric, cold, alignment, light, positive, negative, poison, and rust.

Despite the name, MRR doesn't care if the damage is magic or not.

[nolifer1]

did citw today, those rays was realy hitting hard lol, i though op was trolling so i ignore post, we 5 manned today ee, and was pretty supriised to get spammed with 500 500 500, was fun!

[nibel]

They should never give any monster an ability to drain spellpoints.

You know Lolth is not the first monster in the game with the ability to drain spell points, right?

The problem with Lolth is not that she drains SP, but that she empties your bar very quickly. Just adjust the SP drain value, allow a will save (does it allow a save? I don't know) to prevent it, and it is ok.

[JOTMON]

did citw today, those rays was realy hitting hard lol, i though op was trolling so i ignore post, we 5 manned today ee, and was pretty supriised to get spammed with 500 500 500, was fun!

True enough, hard to believe posts on most occasions, sometimes you just have to see it for yourself... and then discouver.. wow... they did screw it up and nobody at Turbine even realized it.


You know Lolth is not the first monster in the game with the ability to drain spell points, right?

The problem with Lolth is that that she drains SP, but that she empties your bar very quickly. Just adjust the SP drain value, allow a will save (does it allow a save? I don't know) to prevent it, and it is ok.


That is the issue...
Its not a matter of drinking a couple curse pots.. like we do in Abbott. mana loss is manageable..
Lloth 1 shot wipes out mana bars on every beam attack along with spamming all her other attacks.

[jalont]

+1 to this. So many threads about the game being too easy. It's only easy for those that have multiple TR lives and all the best gear in the game. Not to mention the knowledge of the quests they have ran hundreds of times.

I bet it's easy for people that play on the difficulty they're expected to play on! Which is the problem.

[nibel]

That is the issue...
Its not a matter of drinking a couple curse pots.. like we do in Abbott. mana loss is manageable..
Lloth 1 shot wipes out mana bars on every beam attack along with spamming all her other attacks.

I wasn't with the Abbot in mind when I said that. Dream Reavers (http://ddowiki.com/page/Dream_Reaver) drain SP on hit if you fail a will save.