So, game is to easy? stop with the precious ship buffs at least

[Powskier]

wow ,all the OverPowered toons! WoW ...every one is running with three rows of buffs on their character...oh ,so powerfull...gosh we are really impressed down here. I'm not near a one shot EE solo player,but it is really ironic that the same players who says the game is to easy ,are also on the ship buff team. Are ship buffs just addicting? I use 8 buffs on a smaller ship;it feels like a huge power creep...so kudos all ya with 20 or more buffs ..who say the game is to easy.

[MagicBlue]

It has been told for ages.
Ship buffs are stupid.
But, in general, it is difficult not to use them in order to find more challenge. And it difficult not to use it to quest in solo without self-resources.

What i think is a very good thing for the game is not to suggest players not to use the ship buffs, but to remove them completely from the game

[bartharok]

You DO know that removing them would cause no end of rage, and would be pretty silly to do anyways, since they just redid them.

[Algreg]

If I have ever seen a cool story, bro-scenario...

[Nagantor]

Restricting yourself to find challenge is silly. Why would you go for a powerfull character in the first place then?

Removing the old buffs is a good idea though, they stack too high. Although it hurts those who can't cast resist energy. But most of those have either Evasion or Armor with MRR those days.

About the real point: yes, this games does need a difficulty level which is not accessible (yet) to the majority. Elite sounds fine by name.

[kned225]

Airship buffs were made even sillier with the overhaul. And if that weren't bad enough, then they completely undermine their new system by keeping the old system

It reeks of a cowed, desperate and highly disorganized development team

[LrdSlvrhnd]

My favorites are the ones who aren't "The game is too easy, make stuff more challenging!" but "The game is too easy, hit things with the nerf bat!" And of course, they're usually the first to scream bloody murder when that happens.

My feeling has always been "You think the game's too easy? It's even easier to fix that! Purposely gimp yourself and give yourself a challenge! Run in an off-ED with some fun twists! Use a helmet and outfit because it looks cool, not because it's best-in-slot! Challenge YOURSELF!"

If I'm ever lucky enough to get to a point where playing is so boringly easy that it's less fun (which I doubt will ever happen because I'll never run a PM or a monkcher) then I'll cheerfully start seeing what I can do to give myself a challenge, rather than try to ruin other people's fun. Like farming Prove Your Worth for a Plundered Pirate's Hat (which I'm no longer convinced exists) - it got too easy on my ranger/rogue, so I started doing it on my barb. Without a rogue hire.

[kned225]

My feeling has always been "You think the game's too easy? Purposely gimp yourself!

Ppl keep saying this...

Is it so hard to understand that most players want to be challenged at their best?

[bartharok]

Ppl keep saying this...

Is it so hard to understand that most players want to be challenged at their best?

What the hard part is, is that people will work hard to make the game as little challenging as possible, and then demand it to be made harder

[Xianio]

Ppl keep saying this...

Is it so hard to understand that most players want to be challenged at their best?

Which is fair but it's also fair to say that ship buffs aren't really 'your best' as much as they are an additional crutch the game offers. Yeah, I know they could never be removed because peoples minds would explode, but they really are insane.

Just try and play through heroic without ship buffs. The game becomes many times more difficult. The elemental resistance benefits alone break the early game content, difficulty-wise.

[MagicBlue]

I keep saying that the "gimp yourself" suggestion can be acceptable, sometimes.

I think also that the majority of players feel the game challenging enough.
As far as i know also the majoity of players do not afford extreme contents (EE).
Who can complaint about the low challenge level of DDO are those who are taking every power possible from the game and i understand them.

But i think also that the game should not be done for the peaks.
If someone beat the game, means that they win.
Raising the level is only one way to definitively avoid the majority of players to try to reach the top.

About ship buffs, they can help who is "weaker" to fill some holes, but in overall are something "extra" characters and builds. A general aid to cover the weaknesses that a build can have.

I also think that can be more useful to learn how to play a character with weakness than one demi-god. And, in my opinion, is more funny.

[Monkey-Boy]

Show me on the doll where the bad power gamer touched you.

[bartharok]

Show me on the doll where the bad power gamer touched you.

Really constructive today.

[kned225]

What the hard part is, is that people will work hard to make the game as little challenging as possible, and then demand it to be made harder

Elite....epic or heroic...should ALWAYS be a knock-down, drag-out for even the most min/maxed uber past life collecting p2w addict, no matter how hard they work. Even if that means Elite is only played by .00001% of the playerbase

And they should be adequately rewarded for playing it. Anything less is poor design when your game has four difficulties

[Blackheartox]

IF i could pick only xp shrine without all other buffs without losing time roaming on new guild airship, then sure smart idea.
Maybe make a on quest thing like this:
Enter quest select difficulty, select challenge.
Win while being immune to healing 40% more xp
Win while being striped from all gear and past lifes 40% more xp
Wing while being striped from guildships 20% more xp or 5% chance more for named items

Saga reward, challenge: won by being immune to healing, no past lifes, no gear, no shipies, solo, epic elite

Reward taken: 2 guild levels

Its really simple to add challenge to game

Really simple

But people will always be against that since they want to feel pro and proud for soloing ee in this easy game

[bartharok]

Elite....epic or heroic...should ALWAYS be a knock-down, drag-out for even the most min/maxed uber past life collecting p2w addict, no matter how hard they work. Even if that means Elite is only played by .00001% of the playerbase

And they should be adequately rewarded for playing it. Anything less is poor design when your game has four difficulties

A game company cant design anything on the desires of the 0.00001%. If they did so, THAT would be poor design.

And anyone that really wants to can trivialize anything, except mindless waves of uber critters, by adapting their playstyle.

[DarthCaedus]

Ppl keep saying this...

Is it so hard to understand that most players want to be challenged at their best?

Which is of course an impossible goal since player ability to defeat content is on a spectrum.

So what is Turbine to do when people are getting tier 3 thunderforge weapons the day the raid came out and crushing content with other exploits?

What you are suggesting is not possible unless Turbine provided a "pick your own challenge rating option", but then the rage would begin about it's not worth running difficult content because the rewards aren't good enough. Of course these will be the same people that complained about lack of challenge.

[DarthCaedus]

Elite....epic or heroic...should ALWAYS be a knock-down, drag-out for even the most min/maxed uber past life collecting p2w addict, no matter how hard they work. Even if that means Elite is only played by .00001% of the playerbase

And they should be adequately rewarded for playing it. Anything less is poor design when your game has four difficulties

That sounds like a great way to drive players away.

It's all about working around the AI. Once you've done that all they can do is increase the time it takes by adding more hp, requiring higher saves, etc. That doesn't add more challenge. Neither does making it completed by only .00001% of the playerbase that mastered more AI work-arounds.

[jalont]

That is one option. You know what another, more intelligent option is? Stopping all the massive buffs to player power that comes each update.

[kned225]

A game company cant design anything on the desires of the 0.00001%. If they did so, THAT would be poor design.


They already did....they made Casual. Elite shouldn't be Normal

[kned225]

That sounds like a great way to drive players away.


Why should it drive them away? They have Hard....or Normal

[jalont]

Why should it drive them away? They have Hard....or Normal

And the default pug difficulty was EH for a very long time with well over 50 percent being for EH, so players can accept this. Since u23, on Ghallanda, the default pug difficulty has become EE by a large margin... for obvious reasons.

[FranOhmsford]

It has been told for ages.
Ship buffs are stupid.
But, in general, it is difficult not to use them in order to find more challenge. And it difficult not to use it to quest in solo without self-resources.

What i think is a very good thing for the game is not to suggest players not to use the ship buffs, but to remove them completely from the game

Yet the Devs answer to all these cries was to give us more {and much more powerful} Ship Buffs!

They were going to take away the old buffs but thankfully there were enough people who realised what that would do to anyone who couldn't afford the big ship with all the new buffs!

Ship Buffs now are P2Win!

Ship Buffs before were perfectly fine!

[DarthCaedus]

Why should it drive them away? They have Hard....or Normal

What point is having a difficulty that can almost never be completed. That isn't challenging it's ridiculous. Why would Turbine waste time on a difficulty nobody will run.

As it is the same people who claim EE is too easy post that they don't run EE because it doesn't provide enough reward for how much longer it takes.

The circular arguments are so hard to reconcile that the only possible conclusion is foolishness.

[FranOhmsford]

And the default pug difficulty was EH for a very long time with well over 50 percent being for EH, so players can accept this. Since u23, on Ghallanda, the default pug difficulty has become EE by a large margin... for obvious reasons.

On Cannith however: The Default Pug difficulty is EN {sometimes EH!}.

EE is rarely Pugged {and if you're seeing lots of EEs on Ghallanda that could well be simply people looking for Favour or Saga Rewards!}.


There are reasons to run EEs ONCE but after that ONE run....

[Vellrad]

And cut off your hand while you're at it. This will increase challenge!

[Blackheartox]

What point is having a difficulty that can almost never be completed. That isn't challenging it's ridiculous. Why would Turbine waste time on a difficulty nobody will run.

As it is the same people who claim EE is too easy post that they don't run EE because it doesn't provide enough reward for how much longer it takes.

The circular arguments are so hard to reconcile that the only possible conclusion is foolishness.

You need a difficulty to aspire to.
Epic elite as it is now is not something hard, its the regular basis.
You need reason to play the game longer.
Playing game longer = more interest = more possible tp spend on game = more tp spent on improving your character= more time spent on game = more money for turbine..


IS it really that hard to realize those points?

[Loromir]

It has been told for ages.
Ship buffs are stupid.
But, in general, it is difficult not to use them in order to find more challenge. And it difficult not to use it to quest in solo without self-resources.

What i think is a very good thing for the game is not to suggest players not to use the ship buffs, but to remove them completely from the game


Our guild has spent RL money for a Daedelean Kraken Ship. What would we use it for if they take away buffs?

[FranOhmsford]

Epic elite as it is now is not something hard, its the regular basis.


Regular basis for WHO Over?

For Uber Completionists soloing or Shortmanning with other Uber Completionists? Well yes...it SHOULD be!

I don't see you posting EE LFMs all that often! {and no Cannithtrade is NOT the LFM!}.

[Kawai]

1). Gather lootz...

http://i.imgur.com/MHGY6w6.jpg?1

2. Return to ship, immediately snap selfie...

http://i.imgur.com/erkV91X.jpg?1

3. Relax for a bit...

http://i.imgur.com/ocxCEiF.jpg?1

4). Get Buffs, repeat step 1.

http://i.imgur.com/o57ArGU.jpg?1

5). WIN :)

[bartharok]

You need a difficulty to aspire to.
Epic elite as it is now is not something hard, its the regular basis.
You need reason to play the game longer.
Playing game longer = more interest = more possible tp spend on game = more tp spent on improving your character= more time spent on game = more money for turbine..


IS it really that hard to realize those points?

Regular basis for one may be very rarely for others. Its a matter of getting blinded by what you do, so that you cant see what others do. (Cuts both ways, too)

[kned225]

What point is having a difficulty that can almost never be completed. That isn't challenging it's ridiculous. Why would Turbine waste time on a difficulty nobody will run.


Again....see Casual. Ppl WILL run it for the right reward

[Qhualor]

As it is the same people who claim EE is too easy post that they don't run EE because it doesn't provide enough reward for how much longer it takes.

The circular arguments are so hard to reconcile that the only possible conclusion is foolishness.

What it does is point out the problem with the system. If its more efficient and more rewarding on lower difficulties, than that's what players do. Sometimes I run with real elite players that should only be playing elite, but for fast/efficient xp, loot and speed of progression they run normal a lot of times. The system has broken down too much in the name of casualization.

[DarthCaedus]

You need a difficulty to aspire to.
Epic elite as it is now is not something hard, its the regular basis.
You need reason to play the game longer.
Playing game longer = more interest = more possible tp spend on game = more tp spent on improving your character= more time spent on game = more money for turbine..


IS it really that hard to realize those points?

Trying to make this tiny group happy isn't going to result in more revenue for Turbine. It likely will frustrate the majority that want to be able to run EE from time to time.

As it is the people making this "challenge" argument also state they don't run EE because it's more efficient to farm on lower difficulties. How do you reconcile this? Do the people want a challenge or do they want efficiency? Do you expect Turbine to force them to run a specific way?

[DakFrost]

wow ,all the OverPowered toons! WoW ...every one is running with three rows of buffs on their character...oh ,so powerfull...gosh we are really impressed down here. I'm not near a one shot EE solo player,but it is really ironic that the same players who says the game is to easy ,are also on the ship buff team. Are ship buffs just addicting? I use 8 buffs on a smaller ship;it feels like a huge power creep...so kudos all ya with 20 or more buffs ..who say the game is to easy.

Or, rather then ask other people to gimp themselves down to your level, you could learn to play the game better and see what the issue is.

You should read the book "Harrison Bergeron", it sounds like you'd enjoy it.

[PublicEnemy]

1). Gather lootz...

http://i.imgur.com/MHGY6w6.jpg?1

2. Return to ship, immediately snap selfie...

http://i.imgur.com/erkV91X.jpg?1

3. Relax for a bit...

http://i.imgur.com/ocxCEiF.jpg?1

4). Get Buffs, repeat step 1.

http://i.imgur.com/o57ArGU.jpg?1

5). WIN :)

So nice and true! Sometime people should learn to just have fun on the game and not run immediately (once they log) to grind for "that-next-big-loot".

[Chai]

Making the game more challenging for the overgeared does not involve not wearing said gear, or simply raising CRs, HP, saves and DCs on mobs. It would involve tweaking the AI to do different things to counter the abilities of the players. Bigger HP totals make it more time consuming, but don't really add to challenge so much.

[DarthCaedus]

What it does is point out the problem with the system. If its more efficient and more rewarding on lower difficulties, than that's what players do. Sometimes I run with real elite players that should only be playing elite, but for fast/efficient xp, loot and speed of progression they run normal a lot of times. The system has broken down too much in the name of casualization.

If elite rewards are 4x better odds than getting the same thing as normal it definitely demonstrates they aren't finding elite too easy. Otherwise why not just run on elite?

[patang01]

It has been told for ages.
Ship buffs are stupid.
But, in general, it is difficult not to use them in order to find more challenge. And it difficult not to use it to quest in solo without self-resources.

What i think is a very good thing for the game is not to suggest players not to use the ship buffs, but to remove them completely from the game

If you want people that paid real money for them to quit, yes. That is certainly a great suggestion.

[jalont]

If elite rewards are 4x better odds than getting the same thing as normal it definitely demonstrates they aren't finding elite too easy. Otherwise why not just run on elite?

Time sink is not difficulty.

ETA: Though I can see why some people think so. DDO has become a game geared towards endless grinding, where time is the block and the store is the thing used to monetize the game by providing a way to remove the blocks.

It shouldn't be this way. The actual block should be difficulty.

[BigErkyKid]

Making the game more challenging for the overgeared does not involve not wearing said gear, or simply raising CRs, HP, saves and DCs on mobs. It would involve tweaking the AI to do different things to counter the abilities of the players. Bigger HP totals make it more time consuming, but don't really add to challenge so much.

They clearly need help figuring out how to make it more difficult, because for the most part that's all they are doing in EE.

[FranOhmsford]

Making the game more challenging for the overgeared does not involve not wearing said gear, or simply raising CRs, HP, saves and DCs on mobs. It would involve tweaking the AI to do different things to counter the abilities of the players. Bigger HP totals make it more time consuming, but don't really add to challenge so much.

I've made a point of using my recent completion of EE Cabal as an example:

Two Players - One Perfectly capable in EEs {In fact its very hard to get him to run anything else!}, the other - ME!

Lvl 26 multiple life Sword and Board Paladin in Divine Crusader {the only Destiny he hasn't maxed having recently come back to the game}.
Lvl 25 2nd life Cleric in Unyielding Sentinel.

1 Hr 40 Minutes - No Deaths!
Never even close to having any Deaths!

I could have spent all my SPs Keeping said Paladin topped up but that would have been a waste!

Energy Drain, Destruction - Save!
Energy Drain, Implosion - Might get ONE!
Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Destruction - Save!
Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Implosion - Might get ONE!
Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Destruction - Still Saved more than 50% of the time!

And this was while concentrating on targeting Loremasters and Shamans! NOT the Melees!

Paladin had twice my kills in the end BUT if I'd simply sat back and done nothing other than heal we'd have been in there another hour at least!
AND
If I'd gone into Mace and Board mode with Aura up I'd have been dead multiple times even in US {as it is I had to break out my second Mace with the first BROKEN!}.

[kned225]

Trying to make this tiny group happy isn't going to result in more revenue for Turbine. It likely will frustrate the majority that want to be able to run EE from time to time

Oh heaven forbid players get FRUSTRATED trying to complete the games hardest difficulty. Elite has a definition

It also doesn't need to be the most efficient in terms of xp/min. It just needs to adequately reward

And the rewards dont need to be more power. It could be as simple as an in-game cosmetic that says a player has earned a certain amount of EE favor. "Im better than you" goes a long way

There are tons of other reward options out there, including obviously awesome gear, that would give the top tier player a new goal

[Hafeal]

Ship Buffs before were perfectly fine!


Ship Buffs were "ok" before - 2 improvements I thought were well worth it, if you are going to use the buffs:

1) They last more than 1 hour;
2) They last through death.

This allows for better grouping instead of delays from the constant "I need to go re-buff" that used to exist.

[FranOhmsford]

Ship Buffs were "ok" before - 2 improvements I thought were well worth it, if you are going to use the buffs:

1) They last more than 1 hour;
2) They last through death.

This allows for better grouping instead of delays from the constant "I need to go re-buff" that used to exist.

I still go back every hour for the Cargo Hold!
I know I'm not alone in doing this!

Cargo Hold buffs don't last through Death either!

[Singular]

Which is fair but it's also fair to say that ship buffs aren't really 'your best' as much as they are an additional crutch the game offers. Yeah, I know they could never be removed because peoples minds would explode, but they really are insane.

Just try and play through heroic without ship buffs. The game becomes many times more difficult. The elemental resistance benefits alone break the early game content, difficulty-wise.

Sometimes I forget to get them in Epic content. The only thing that tips me off is the slightly lower spell points. Certainly doesn't impact how easy the quests are on EN and EH. EN is so easy the mobs explode in fear when you look at them. EH is godmode for EE characters. Since the update, in EE I've been like "huh. So...what happened?" even on my pure fighter.

[Singular]

I still go back every hour for the Cargo Hold!
I know I'm not alone in doing this!

Cargo Hold buffs don't last through Death either!

Death?

[Hafeal]

Let's boil this down:


Elite has a definition ...

It just needs to adequately reward ...

"Im better than you" goes a long way



Yeah, I am thinking that is not an attitude the devs are looking to promote or exacerbate in the game as it exists.

[bartharok]

Death?

The Great Leveller, In Front Of Whom Even Kings Must Kneel.

That guy.

[Singular]

I've made a point of using my recent completion of EE Cabal as an example:

Two Players - One Perfectly capable in EEs {In fact its very hard to get him to run anything else!}, the other - ME!

Lvl 26 multiple life Sword and Board Paladin in Divine Crusader {the only Destiny he hasn't maxed having recently come back to the game}.
Lvl 25 2nd life Cleric in Unyielding Sentinel.

1 Hr 40 Minutes - No Deaths!
Never even close to having any Deaths!

I could have spent all my SPs Keeping said Paladin topped up but that would have been a waste!

Energy Drain, Destruction - Save!
Energy Drain, Implosion - Might get ONE!
Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Destruction - Save!
Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Implosion - Might get ONE!
Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Destruction - Still Saved more than 50% of the time!

And this was while concentrating on targeting Loremasters and Shamans! NOT the Melees!

Paladin had twice my kills in the end BUT if I'd simply sat back and done nothing other than heal we'd have been in there another hour at least!
AND
If I'd gone into Mace and Board mode with Aura up I'd have been dead multiple times even in US {as it is I had to break out my second Mace with the first BROKEN!}.

I'm sorry, EE Cabal took 1 hour and 40 minutes??? Cabal?

Ok, if you represent whatever "normal" is in DDO, I can see why some people would rather not have a difficulty increase in EE. Personally, and I apologize, I cannot imagine taking longer - at worst - than 20 minutes to finish that quest.

[Hafeal]

Cargo Hold buffs don't last through Death either!

*shrug* I stopped using cargo hold buffs when the new ones came out. You can get your resists the old fashioned way.

Besides, since the buffs are all p2w, why take the time to constantly go to the hold to get them? :cool:

[beelzebaba]

Some people just need constant acknowledgement of their skills. Saying something is too easy is basically the same as saying i am too uber.

Most of the people saying that only run with other really good players and will not take pugs.

The great players i remember were the ones who just took the first bunch in the group and rolled.

I like to mix it up. sometimes i just want to get the stuff done and will short man, or only run with great players, but more often i really enjoy taking 5 pugs and trying to lead them through something.

To each their own i suppose, but for the ones who need validation...."Daddy loves you"

LOL

[kned225]

Let's boil this down:



Yeah, I am thinking that is not an attitude the devs are looking to promote or exacerbate in the game as it exists.

Yes, we wouldn't want to promote healthy competition among players

[FranOhmsford]

*shrug* I stopped using cargo hold buffs when the new ones came out. You can get your resists the old fashioned way.

My gear slots are taken up - There's nowhere I can slot in all 5 Resists!

I don't have the perfect set up and neither do the majority of people playing DDO!

And Wands/Scrolls get Dispelled and we all know what happens when you ask the Cleric/FvS/Wizard etc. for Buffs other than Deathward, FoM and in certain quests True Seeing in this game!


Besides, since the buffs are all p2w, why take the time to constantly go to the hold to get them? :cool:

Many of the NEW Buffs are P2W!

The Cargo Hold Buffs aren't!

[bartharok]

Yes, we wouldn't want to promote healthy competition among players

"Im better than you and can prove it" is not healthy competition, its showing off.

[Singular]

Oh heaven forbid players get FRUSTRATED trying to complete the games hardest difficulty. Elite has a definition

It also doesn't need to be the most efficient in terms of xp/min. It just needs to adequately reward

And the rewards dont need to be more power. It could be as simple as an in-game cosmetic that says a player has earned a certain amount of EE favor. "Im better than you" goes a long way

There are tons of other reward options out there, including obviously awesome gear, that would give the top tier player a new goal

Totally. Well said. EE should be so difficult most people can't accomplish it. EH should actually be hard. EN should be the standard - not ridiculously easy, but slightly challenging. As it stands now we have EH, which is normal, and EE, which is kind of difficult, especially for under-geared characters.


Ship Buffs were "ok" before - 2 improvements I thought were well worth it, if you are going to use the buffs:

1) They last more than 1 hour;
2) They last through death.

This allows for better grouping instead of delays from the constant "I need to go re-buff" that used to exist.

That's true. It was frustrating before when everyone would run get buffs before questing.

[FranOhmsford]

I'm sorry, EE Cabal took 1 hour and 40 minutes??? Cabal?

Ok, if you represent whatever "normal" is in DDO, I can see why some people would rather not have a difficulty increase in EE. Personally, and I apologize, I cannot imagine taking longer - at worst - than 20 minutes to finish that quest.

Yes..Cabal!

Yes..I was seriously annoyed by the end of it!

BUT

I've campaigned strongly for a PROPER End-Game difficulty similar to Pre MotU Epics!

Making EE even more difficult would please the Power Gamers for all of 5 minutes until they figure out how to beat it {and maybe they'll get used to taking 1 or 2 minutes longer to complete it!}.
BUT
That would just place EEs even further out of reach for the majority of Players!


My Suggestion is simple: Give us a REAL End-Game difficulty that is ONLY runnable by Capped Characters!
And then you can reduce the difficulty of ALL EEs other than those at say Base Lvl 27-29 to be more reasonable for what they are - Levelling Quests!

[Singular]

Yes..Cabal!

Yes..I was seriously annoyed by the end of it!

Maybe it was scaling - I've never tried to duo it with someone who wasn't EE ready.


BUT

I've campaigned strongly for a PROPER End-Game difficulty similar to Pre MotU Epics!

Making EE even more difficult would please the Power Gamers for all of 5 minutes until they figure out how to beat it {and maybe they'll get used to taking 1 or 2 minutes longer to complete it!}.
BUT
That would just place EEs even further out of reach for the majority of Players!

I'm not sure if that's entirely correct. If so, you're just arguing that power gamers metagame perfectly. Rather than simply increasing mob power, dcs, hp, etc., in a linear fashion, they could improve mob AI in higher difficulties.


My Suggestion is simple: Give us a REAL End-Game difficulty that is ONLY runnable by Capped Characters!

Totally agree with this suggestion. Absolutely.


And then you can reduce the difficulty of ALL EEs other than those at say Base Lvl 27-29 to be more reasonable for what they are - Levelling Quests!

But I'm utterly against making EEs weaker! They're called "epic elite" for a reason - they should NOT be easy. They should absolutely and utterly not be the default setting - that is what EN is for. EH should actually be hard.

[kned225]

"Im better than you and can prove it" is not healthy competition, its showing off.

No, filling your pug with newbs and then steamrolling quests is showing off

Acquiring elite gear or having a cosmetic cue to your accomplishments is healthy competition

[MagicBlue]

If you want people that paid real money for them to quit, yes. That is certainly a great suggestion.

Of course.
Ship buffs cannot be removed because people bought it for real money.

This is an aberration.

So we are in a cage, created with the metal of the coins.

Well, why many people complaint that the game is too easy? It's exacly the consequence of the use of real money to buy powers.

So what to expect? That Turbine will raise challenge so that you can buy some other power with real money?

It seems..."till i win, i p(l)ay"

[bartharok]

No, filling your pug with newbs and then steamrolling quests is showing off

Acquiring elite gear or having a cosmetic cue to your accomplishments is healthy competition

No, it is still showing off. Like people buying loads of gewgaws to show off their wealth.

The first option can be a worse way to show off, but it does not mean that the gewgaws are not showing off.

[kned225]

That would just place EEs even further out of reach for the majority of Players!

This attitude is the problem. EE should not be run by the majority of players! Elite!

But im all for keeping 20-29 EEs as is, if 30s are only playable by capped toons and are truly ELITE

[Monkey-Boy]

My Suggestion is simple: Give us a REAL End-Game difficulty that is ONLY runnable by Capped Characters!
And then you can reduce the difficulty of ALL EEs other than those at say Base Lvl 27-29 to be more reasonable for what they are - Levelling Quests!

Or people could get better at this game, there's always that option.

Ask for help, I'm sure somebody on your server could take you under their wing.

[Gremmlynn]

Elite....epic or heroic...should ALWAYS be a knock-down, drag-out for even the most min/maxed uber past life collecting p2w addict, no matter how hard they work. Even if that means Elite is only played by .00001% of the playerbase

And they should be adequately rewarded for playing it. Anything less is poor design when your game has four difficultiesNot really. Content that is barely played is content that is a waste of company resources to develop. We have to remember that devs aren't DMs customizing quest challenge to their groups for their own satisfaction. They are employees of a company that are paid to do profitable work for every player. The amount of work needed to do what you suggest would likely be more than the rest of the game combined due to the real culprit of the "no challenge issue", the disparity between the top end of power and the average. Basically, the out of control character customization the game has. Really, where poor design came in was in trying to adapt the, rather off the wall to start, D&D 3.5e rules to an MMO in such a close fasion.

But as building super heroes is the game we have, the devs develop it to allow everyone to do just that.

[bartharok]

Or people could get better at this game, there's always that option.

Ask for help, I'm sure somebody on your server could take you under their wing.

attempting to provoke people needlessly cant be this much fun.

[FranOhmsford]

I'm not sure if that's entirely correct. If so, you're just arguing that power gamers metagame perfectly. Rather than simply increasing mob power, dcs, hp, etc., in a linear fashion, they could improve mob AI in higher difficulties.

Let's not get into semantics here - I used the term Power Gamers but at this point in DDO those Players are the ones who've mastered the Meta-Game!

Improving Mob AI is far too much work for Turbine {or frankly any MMO once it's out of Beta!}. Just look at the Hirelings and how every attempt they make to fix them results in even worse issues!


But I'm utterly against making EEs weaker! They're called "epic elite" for a reason - they should NOT be easy. They should absolutely and utterly not be the default setting - that is what EN is for. EH should actually be hard.

It seems people still don't get it!

Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite - The four difficulty settings in DDO were NOT aimed at providing PERFECT difficulty placement for different players!

I'll use a Martial Arts example:

Casual is there for White Belts {new players who hit a quest where Normal is a bit beyond them!}.
Normal is for Red Belts or new players.
Hard is there for Yellow to Blue Belts or those who've mastered the basics.
Elite is for Purple to Brown or those with that little extra.
Epic WAS for Black Belts!

Epic Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite however is NOT EPIC!

We've lost the Epic End-Game difficulty that those Black Belts NEED!

Once we get that End-Game difficulty {Mythic} back Epic Elite can go back to being for the Purple to Brown Belts!

[FranOhmsford]

This attitude is the problem. EE should not be run by the majority of players! Elite!

Tell that to the Devs!

Because from BB alone it's quite obvious that that is NOT how they see Elite {OR Epic Elite!}.


But im all for keeping 20-29 EEs as is, if 30s are only playable by capped toons and are truly ELITE

27-29 - Yes - Fine - So be it!
25-26 - Maybe you could convince me.
20-24 - NOT A CHANCE!

[Monkey-Boy]

attempting to provoke people needlessly cant be this much fun.

Wasn't meant to be a provocation, if people are having trouble handling the content the better option is to ask for help/advise than it is to ask for an entire level of difficulty to be reduced.

[bartharok]

Wasn't meant to be a provocation, if people are having trouble handling the content the better option is to ask for help/advise than it is to ask for an entire level of difficulty to be reduced.

Well, if you dont intend to provoke, you should try to sound a bit less... provocative.

[Gremmlynn]

You need a difficulty to aspire to.
Epic elite as it is now is not something hard, its the regular basis.
You need reason to play the game longer.
Playing game longer = more interest = more possible tp spend on game = more tp spent on improving your character= more time spent on game = more money for turbine..


IS it really that hard to realize those points?Some need a difficulty to aspire to, many already have that and others are content with just building their characters regardless. Who here is to say it's worthwhile to Turbine to do what it takes to keep those in the first group playing? Spending more than what that investment generates is not a good way to increase profits.

[FranOhmsford]

Wasn't meant to be a provocation, if people are having trouble handling the content the better option is to ask for help/advise than it is to ask for an entire level of difficulty to be reduced.

Or would be IF that advice didn't simply consist of:

"Get this many Past Lives"
"Get this specific Gear that you may or may not {more likely the latter} even be capable of getting"

DDO has reached a saturation point with Completionists and Almost Completionists who've done the grind and because DDO does not at this point in time have an actual End-Game are insisting that EE is that End-Game!

The Devs have compounded this with changes like allowing Lvl 20s into higher level EEs {Yes a fully Maxed Destiny Character is only slightly less powerful at Lvl 20 than at Lvl 28 BUT for those of us still levelling through Destinys and most likely in an Off Destiny that gives us no real benefit even at Lvl 28 we can't compete with that Lvl 20 Uber Completionist!


Epic Elite should NOT be aimed at Uber Completionists! That is what the eventual End-Game difficulty is for!

If an Uber Completionist wants to grind out yet another Past Life OR simply wants to play a different Class for a Change then He/She needs to understand that it is going to be stupid easy to get back to Cap!
THAT'S WHAT HE/SHE WENT THROUGH ALL THAT GRIND FOR!

[Kawai]

THAT'S WHAT HE/SHE WENT THROUGH ALL THAT GRIND FOR!

*ducks & covers ears oO

[kned225]

Epic Elite should NOT be aimed at Uber Completionists! That is what the eventual End-Game difficulty is for!

If an Uber Completionist wants to grind out yet another Past Life OR simply wants to play a different Class for a Change then He/She needs to understand that it is going to be stupid easy to get back to Cap!
THAT'S WHAT HE/SHE WENT THROUGH ALL THAT GRIND FOR!

With four available difficulties, there's no reason an uber completionist should need to understand anything of the sort

There's also no reason that running EEs shouldn't be part of the endgame. All of it?....no. Part of it?....why not. Does anyone believe ddo will be in steady development long enough to flush out this mythic endgame to a point where we can consider it the entire endgame, and a healthy one?

Whats wrong with giving "uber completionists" more to do? There are still three other difficulties for us lesser mortals

[NyteByrd1017]

My feeling has always been "You think the game's too easy? It's even easier to fix that! Purposely gimp yourself and give yourself a challenge! Run in an off-ED with some fun twists! Use a helmet and outfit because it looks cool, not because it's best-in-slot! Challenge YOURSELF!"



Thank you. Drop some equipment. Stop buffing yourself. It isn't that hard to make the game more "challenging".

It's the same thing with the private online servers. They want a more "challenging" game, so they complained about balance or permadeath. As one who often plays a cleric, I can't tell you how many times I'd get a tell asking for a rez from someone who claims all death should be permanent. My answer was always: Permadeath yourself. Stay dead.

[Singular]

And cut off your hand while you're at it. This will increase challenge!

Well said, well said.

[MagicBlue]

If game is too easy is because the players wanted it.

Who asked to remove the core rule where negative energy heals undead so they could blast the Thunderholme undeads with their thunderforged weapons?

Who create a thunderforged tier 3 weapon that needed that change of rule?

Who asked to create the power creep introduced in U23?

These are little example of what is happening for an age.

So, the same people that ruined this game now cry for what they have done.

[Gremmlynn]

Time sink is not difficulty.

ETA: Though I can see why some people think so. DDO has become a game geared towards endless grinding, where time is the block and the store is the thing used to monetize the game by providing a way to remove the blocks.

It shouldn't be this way. The actual block should be difficulty.Except that true difficulty is a myth after the content has been figured out. Expecting anyone to solve that issue for an 8 1/2 year old game with an already sparse player base would just be foolish.

What we have is what we pretty much have to have in order to have a game at all at this point.

[Singular]

Let's not get into semantics here - I used the term Power Gamers but at this point in DDO those Players are the ones who've mastered the Meta-Game!

Improving Mob AI is far too much work for Turbine {or frankly any MMO once it's out of Beta!}. Just look at the Hirelings and how every attempt they make to fix them results in even worse issues!

But a dev said they could adjust AI difficulty except that it would kill players too quickly. What I don't get is why they can't adjust it slightly less than that.


It seems people still don't get it!

Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite - The four difficulty settings in DDO were NOT aimed at providing PERFECT difficulty placement for different players!

I'll use a Martial Arts example:

Casual is there for White Belts {new players who hit a quest where Normal is a bit beyond them!}.
Normal is for Red Belts or new players.
Hard is there for Yellow to Blue Belts or those who've mastered the basics.
Elite is for Purple to Brown or those with that little extra.
Epic WAS for Black Belts!

Epic Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite however is NOT EPIC!

We've lost the Epic End-Game difficulty that those Black Belts NEED!

Once we get that End-Game difficulty {Mythic} back Epic Elite can go back to being for the Purple to Brown Belts!

Perfect. Totally agree here.


Tell that to the Devs!

Because from BB alone it's quite obvious that that is NOT how they see Elite {OR Epic Elite!}.

27-29 - Yes - Fine - So be it!
25-26 - Maybe you could convince me.
20-24 - NOT A CHANCE!

Well, they should be at-level challenging. Not like the old Epic, where they were all ridiculously hard because of the massive hp inflation. A level 22 EE quest should seriously challenge level 22 players - but not so much level 28 players.

Yesterday I ran EN Stormhorn stuff on my level 21 pure fighter - it was so easy I couldn't believe it. Now think about that for a second - should a level 21 character be able to easily deal with level 27 quests? (and a gimp character at that?). No, they should be out of their depth.

[Singular]

If game is too easy is because the players wanted it.

Who asked to remove the core rule where negative energy heals undead so they could blast the Thunderholme undeads with their thunderforged weapons?

Who create a thunderforged tier 3 weapon that needed that change of rule?

Who asked to create the power creep introduced in U23?

These are little example of what is happening for an age.

So, the same people that ruined this game now cry for what they have done.

When did that change? Just before I ERd a couple of days ago, my TH weapons were healing undead.

Anyways, the answer to all your questions is "the devs." Players of all kinds and abilities may ask for change, but they are incapable of producing that change theirselves. Only the devs, in their glorious wisdom, can actually direct the course of the game.

[bartharok]

There are a lot of very sensitive people on these boards. They need to be treated with special care to protect their feelings.

The truth needs to be sugar coated and watered down so it doesn't hurt so much.

Yeah, because otherwise they come to the forums to show off their coolness.

[Monkey-Boy]

Or would be IF that advice didn't simply consist of:

"Get this many Past Lives"
"Get this specific Gear that you may or may not {more likely the latter} even be capable of getting"

If anyone says this to you ignore them, they are probably not worth listening to. While a FEW PLs/EPLs make a noticeable difference after 3 or 4 you hit the wall of diminishing returns.

With that said to expect to do EEs on a level 20 toons with no EDs and Korthos gear (I’m exaggerating) is ridiculous. You do need to be ready and have to put a little work in your characters. By a little work I mean a couple of weeks, maybe two months but it doesn’t take years and 10 PLs to be ready. While you are getting ready there are 3 lower difficulty settings.

Gear is important, but the difference between the bestamest gear ever and stuff that’s pretty good isn’t that huge.



DDO has reached a saturation point with Completionists and Almost Completionists who've done the grind and because DDO does not at this point in time have an actual End-Game are insisting that EE is that End-Game!

This is true. People TR often because there is nothing to do at cap. But comparing a completionist to somebody who just put forth a little effort gets you:

- 1-4 DC on spells depending on School. For the big schools, necro and enchant, it’s only 1 DC. If you stack on the Cleric and Sorc PLs it’s more Conjuration and Evocation.
- 1 Tactical DC
- 1-2 saves
- 3 Points to skills.
- Some HP/SP

That’s about it. The different isn’t much at all. Your skill as a player is more important that any of that.



The Devs have compounded this with changes like allowing Lvl 20s into higher level EEs {Yes a fully Maxed Destiny Character is only slightly less powerful at Lvl 20 than at Lvl 28 BUT for those of us still levelling through Destinys and most likely in an Off Destiny that gives us no real benefit even at Lvl 28 we can't compete with that Lvl 20 Uber Completionist!

Absolute nonsense.

Just getting more HP, saves, skills, and feats, arguing that level 28 is little more powerful thatn level 20 is just plain wrong.

Yeah, being off-destiny does suck. But if you are still levelling through destinies (2 years after the release of EDs) there are three lower difficulty settings that you can chose. Blame the ridiculous off-destiny grind and Karma farming on Turbine, it is working as they intend.



Epic Elite should NOT be aimed at Uber Completionists! That is what the eventual End-Game difficulty is for!

It’s not, it never has been. Nor should it. People complete, at times even solo, the hardest EEs on non-completionists all the time.

Seriously, what’s your hangup on the “ubber completionist?” They aren’t any better players than anyone else. There are great players on 32 point toons (not that common anymore as lack of end-game has made everyone TR more than pre-MoTU) and there are Triple-Completionists who are average at best. All it means is you have more free time than others.



If an Uber Completionist wants to grind out yet another Past Life OR simply wants to play a different Class for a Change then He/She needs to understand that it is going to be stupid easy to get back to Cap!
THAT'S WHAT HE/SHE WENT THROUGH ALL THAT GRIND FOR!

I’m not sure what the point of that is. Of course the game is easier for some.

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, we wouldn't want to promote healthy competition among playersLikely not as that means some of their customers end up losers, often leaving. They purposely designed this game to stress cooperation and avoid competition, likely just for this reason.

Turbine could really care less who the best is as there is no real money in that if you can't sell tickets. They are more interested in making the game enjoyable for the most.

[jalont]

Likely not as that means some of their customers end up losers, often leaving. They purposely designed this game to stress cooperation and avoid competition, likely just for this reason.

Turbine could really care less who the best is as there is no real money in that if you can't sell tickets. They are more interested in making the game enjoyable for the most.

Except that I can't help but notice that the game has been losing players as it has become easier and more casual. It is a vicious cycle. As the game gets easier, more and more power gamers leave. As the power gamers leave, DDO needs to rely more and more on the whales, meaning making the game easier, creating time sink barriers and adding barrier reduction into the store.

It's a death spiral.

[Blackheartox]

Seriously, what’s your hangup on the “ubber completionist?” They aren’t any better players than anyone else. There are great players on 32 point toons (not that common anymore as lack of end-game has made everyone TR more than pre-MoTU) and there are Triple-Completionists who are average at best. All it means is you have more free time than others.


Or turbine points /first triple all anyone?

[MagicBlue]

When did that change? Just before I ERd a couple of days ago, my TH weapons were healing undead.



Maybe i mistaken.
Shadow Guard effect on Shadowscale no more heals undead. I thought they implemented also on weapons.

[bartharok]

Except that I can't help but notice that the game has been losing players as it has become easier and more casual. It is a vicious cycle. As the game gets easier, more and more power gamers leave. As the power gamers leave, DDO needs to rely more and more on the whales, meaning making the game easier, creating time sink barriers and adding barrier reduction into the store.

It's a death spiral.

It might be that the powergamers leave, and the game is made easier, in that order. Because a powergamer will lose intrest once he has what he came for, or when he notices it doesnt improve him, just his toon.

[kned225]

Likely not as that means some of their customers end up losers, often leaving. They purposely designed this game to stress cooperation and avoid competition, likely just for this reason.

Turbine could really care less who the best is as there is no real money in that if you can't sell tickets. They are more interested in making the game enjoyable for the most.


This is hilarious. You're gonna quit playing because you see a player with a special set of wings around his name, or a cosmetic helmet acquired by completing elite quests?

You did feel some tiny amount of pride the first time u had wings around your name?

Feeling pride in your shinies is a big part of EVERY mmo. Nothing wrong with a little "look what i got"

This game needs more of it

[Monkey-Boy]

It might be that the powergamers leave, and the game is made easier, in that order. Because a powergamer will lose intrest once he has what he came for, or when he notices it doesnt improve him, just his toon.

It's a totally different conversation, but retention of new people in DDO needs to be addressed. Though most of them leave before any of the stuff we're discussing in this thread comes into play.

[bartharok]

It's a totally different conversation, but retention of new people in DDO needs to be addressed. Though most of them leave before any of the stuff we're discussing in this thread comes into play.

True enough, but its almost impossible to figure out why people leave, and what should be done about it.

[ristretto93]

What the hard part is, is that people will work hard to make the game as little challenging as possible, and then demand it to be made harder

Totally this...

People obsessively farm/grind and perfect everything possibly sub-optimal. They obsessively get past-life after past-life ('completionist' when it first came into the game was kind of a joke, they never expected anyone to actually do it) for the purpose of become remarkably powerful - and then when they have exactly what they worked for they claim the game is too easy.

I am completely for making aspects of the game more challenging. I enjoy myself more when there is a struggle to succeed. That doesn't mean that we should target x class and demand nerfs. The idea that they could improve enemy AI and add other dangers to the quests is pretty simple and, in my opinion, the only thing they can do that would preserve the playability of everyone's builds (other than fine tuning class abilities for balance...carefully and with much testing).

So maybe instead of self gimping certain people should just grind less farm less and be a little less obsessive and just enjoy gameplay regardless of whether it effects the power of your character.

[MagicBlue]

It might be that the powergamers leave, and the game is made easier, in that order. Because a powergamer will lose intrest once he has what he came for, or when he notices it doesnt improve him, just his toon.

Yes, but as is DDO now. I do not know how is useful to keep trying to make it more challenging without a clear design of what the game should be.
This is the result also of many different solutions put in place in the last years that did not give the expected results.

Furthermore Turbine has become more aggressive with the DDO store trying to give to anyone, by money, the way to improve the characters.
Improving the characters without an improvement of the environment make the game easier by definition.

DDO needs a design revamp. Otherwise the only solution is to increase HP and saves.

[Gremmlynn]

Or would be IF that advice didn't simply consist of:

"Get this many Past Lives"
"Get this specific Gear that you may or may not {more likely the latter} even be capable of getting"

You missed "Adopt this play style utilizing this cookie cutter build".

[Ermin_Sivarch]

having alot of customization is what makes this game great, and what we need is more options, not less. We need viable options that make the choices of each character unique and fun to play. This includes but is not limited to more enhancement trees.

Ship buffs are completely optional and another way to enhance your character depending on what guild they are part of, if any. Not using a guild is an option but a poor one, as a quick run to a ship can give you valuable buffs. You always have the option to have a party member invite you to there ship for buffs. Its usually a good idea to get ship buffs as the extra boost can really help you in combat. Currently my 43 guild ship is providing more AC, +2 to all stats, and a boost of 10% to healing amp, along with +1 to loot boost.

With regard to Elite not feeling like elite, that depends on how far along in the game you are. If your just starting out, its easy to not know the game mechanics and not have the equipment you need to really do elites. a 28 point build that is at level 1 or level 3 plays completely different than a 32 point build that starts at level 7 or the iconic level 15. It makes a huge difference if you can customize equipment for your characters and is usually the determining factor on how difficult you can make it. I generally like to put invulnerability on all my characters, usually in +5 armor. At one point I thought they were going to nerf invulnerability to make it harder to make, changing the materials needed to make it, so I made a ton of them in anticipation of this change. Unfortunately I was wrong and they didn't make it harder to make them. Well, actually I'm glad they didn't require you to use more materials.
At level 3 I can get a moderate fort belt on my alts. usually this suffices from any crits coming there way. these 2 items probably makes elites alot more viable. Another nice item you can pick up is bracer of wind, giving a permanent blur effect, a level 3 can use it.


I don't like how they nerfed secret door detection and even true seeing, making them rather useless at the higher levels. Basically doing epic stuff requires a rogue or artificer to find secret doors. Being able to cast these spells is also rather useless. I remember how I would make goggles that had secret door detection, but now its pointless to even have this on an item unless your doing like level 7 or lower quests.
They also nerfed poison and disease immunity. Alot of my characters used this. before the nerf people probably had green steel that had these immunities.

They also nerfed the knock spell and knock wands, making the drowsing rods from CC completely worthless.

They nerfed wands and scrolls in general, so it requires enhancements to boost there power and doesn't use spell power at all.

[Monkey-Boy]

True enough, but its almost impossible to figure out why people leave, and what should be done about it.

There are exit surveys, though those are only if you cancel a subscription.

Anecdotally, and yes I know the plural of an anecdote isn't a "fact," I've talked a few friends/co-workers into trying out DDO. They loved Korthos (It's a great pack if you're a former D&D player) but felt lost when they got to the harbor. Some felt they hit the "pay wall" too early and didn't feel it was right that they would have had to repeat content to level at level 4.

DDO being the first major F2P MMO in the western world is a bit behind the times on what's available for free. Most of the other games give you access to most if not all of the content and get their money elsewhere. While I know mission packs are relatively cheap these people who just started out didn't/couldn't play enough to get hooked, they were able to play enough SWTOR or some other game.

When I started I got hooked by level 4, but as a long time D&Der who never played an MMO this was/is the perfect game for me. I also came over to DDO with about 10 other people from another game, a lot of new people feel lost as quite frankly the community isn't too welcome to new players (can you really expect us to be? they just slow us down). I'm not sure how you can address that without reprogramming human nature.

Going way off topic, though the original post of this thread was just a dig at power-gamers how bad can we really feel for discussing something actually worth talking about? :)

[FranOhmsford]

Well, they should be at-level challenging. Not like the old Epic, where they were all ridiculously hard because of the massive hp inflation. A level 22 EE quest should seriously challenge level 22 players - but not so much level 28 players.

Yesterday I ran EN Stormhorn stuff on my level 21 pure fighter - it was so easy I couldn't believe it. Now think about that for a second - should a level 21 character be able to easily deal with level 27 quests? (and a gimp character at that?). No, they should be out of their depth.

Disclaimer EN is still Normal - A difficulty that in no way should be aimed at anyone other than the newest of players to that quest!
A Veteran like Singular should quite simply not be challenged by EN when on a Destinied up Lvl 21 character!

However: When talking about the REAL difficulties for anyone who's not completely new to said content i.e. EH and EE we have THE real problem with Epics post MotU!

A problem that has been exacerbated by the Devs allowing those Lvl 21 Players into Lvl 26 Quests!

The issue is that Epic Levels themselves give virtually nothing! - The Power is in the Destinies!
Once you've maxed your main destiny you can step back into that destiny {In Public} at ANY time!


A Lvl 26 Quest should be aimed at characters of Lvl 24 and Up {any character below that Level should have extreme difficulties running said quest!
However:
Because of the Epic Destiny issue we have Lvl 21 Characters who are quite simply stronger than Lvl 28 Characters of the same Build played by that self-same Player!

So the Devs have shot themselves in the Feet!

They can't provide a difficulty for Lvl 21 Ubers with Maxed Out destinies that is not far too difficult for Lvl 28 1st to 5th Life Characters in an Off Destiny!

THIS is why EEs should be aimed squarely back where they're supposed to be aimed - At the Lvl 28 in an Off Destiny rather than the Lvl 21 in his MAIN destiny!

THIS is why the Devs overscaled Storm the Beaches so much!
They were trying to provide a challenge for Maxed out Players!

That Challenge cannot be provided in Levelling Difficulties Devs!
It has to be placed where it's supposed to be - AT END-GAME!


Now people can continue to argue that EE is that End-Game but unfortunately that is False!

The Devs knew when they first created Epics that Favour should not be rewarded in said Epics - We can still get no more favour for EE VoN 3 or Partycrashers or Cabal or GoP than for the Heroic versions!
When we had an ACTUAL End-Game - Pre MotU Epics - There was no XP either in Epics!
The reason to run Epics was for the LOOT - Which required INSANE Grinding!

So:

IF we have to have EE be super difficult as so many seem to want AND be aimed squarely at the top 10%!

- Remove the Favour from EE in ALL Epic Quests - Move it to EH so we don't lose that Favour!
- Add Favour to the Epic Quests that don't currently give any {On EH only!} so that we don't get more reward for running some quests than others!
- Move all EE items back down to EH, Move all EH items back down to EN and remove all EN items {not retrospectively!} from the game!
- Move the EE Saga Rewards down to EH, Move the EH Saga Rewards down to EN! ADD New Cosmetic ONLY Saga Rewards to EE Completions!
- Treble the XP Rewards in ALL EE Lvl 22-26 Quests so that the Ubers can stick to those quests to get back to cap!

NOW You can Up the Difficulty of those EE Quests that are currently too easy for said Ubers!

Once you've made it so that non-ubers have NO valid reason to ever step into said EE Quests!

P.S. Yes I know there'll be non-ubers who consider 3x the XP of Current Epic Elites to be a very valid reason!
BUT I'd happily agree with the Ubers when those people start moaning that EE is too hard!
XP is not now and never has been the reason we play DDO!

[Singular]

It's a totally different conversation, but retention of new people in DDO needs to be addressed. Though most of them leave before any of the stuff we're discussing in this thread comes into play.

Many of the new players to my guild left because it was too easy for them to get money. That's kind of my fault - I gave them 20k plat each. At first they were all happy. But then they had nothing to strive for, so...out. Another player I know quit because he ran out of stuff to do as an f2p at lvl 14 or so - that's a his fault thing. Another player I know quit because he's exhaustively bored with running the same quests over and over - a DDO fault for not including some kind of randomness in their quests. A few players I know quit over the changes to war forged - that's a their fault thing if they can't or don't want to adjust and keep up. And some I know just got completionist and were like "alright, done" because the game was already too easy for their FOTM builds. I guess one guy was busy. Others left because their interest was exhausted. Some left to try new games and never came back.

I left for a while to try new games because I'm bored with running identical quests over and over - the themepark thing is good in some respects, but it cannot produce that "wow, this is new!" feeling (they really should add some kind of randomness to quests). I returned because I realized I like itemization and character planning, plus the combat, and other games just kind of suck.

[Monkey-Boy]

You missed "Adopt this play style utilizing this cookie cutter build".

While I can get behind knocking the cookie-cutter builds thingy (they are not needed), but adapting your play-style to what's effective is part of being a good player. The game changes and you do need to change with it.

Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. If what you're doing isn't working you need to adjust what you're doing.

This isn't pen and paper, your DM cannot adapt the game to the players. The players need to adapt to the game unless they like ice-skating uphill.

[Monkey-Boy]

I returned because I realized I like itemization and character planning, plus the combat, and other games just kind of suck.


Tell me about it, the combat in DDO is crack to my inner Whitney Houston.

All other MMOs pale in comparison.

[FranOhmsford]

If anyone says this to you ignore them, they are probably not worth listening to. While a FEW PLs/EPLs make a noticeable difference after 3 or 4 you hit the wall of diminishing returns.

A Wizard doesn't hit the wall until long after that!
Neither does a Cleric!
Or a Bard!
Or a Fighter!
Or any Class you care to mention!


With that said to expect to do EEs on a level 20 toons with no EDs and Korthos gear (I’m exaggerating) is ridiculous. You do need to be ready and have to put a little work in your characters. By a little work I mean a couple of weeks, maybe two months but it doesn’t take years and 10 PLs to be ready. While you are getting ready there are 3 lower difficulty settings.

Nobody's saying any such thing!

However: I do expect to not have to spend almost TWO smeggin' hours in EE Cabal with Lvl 25 and 26 2nd Life Characters! {Never mind whether those characters are currently in their main destinies or not!}.
THAT is EXCESSIVE!


Gear is important, but the difference between the bestamest gear ever and stuff that’s pretty good isn’t that huge.

Yes - It is!

Augments have exacerbated this issue!


This is true. People TR often because there is nothing to do at cap. But comparing a completionist to somebody who just put forth a little effort gets you:

- 1-4 DC on spells depending on School. For the big schools, necro and enchant, it’s only 1 DC. If you stack on the Cleric and Sorc PLs it’s more Conjuration and Evocation.
- 1 Tactical DC
- 1-2 saves
- 3 Points to skills.
- Some HP/SP

That’s about it. The different isn’t much at all. Your skill as a player is more important that any of that.

For the best players maybe!

However: For the rest of us that 1 Save could be the difference between saving 90% of the time and NEVER Saving!
Those 3 points to skills could mean the difference between being able to complete objectives even with an item or NOT!
That tactical DC could be what we need to get QP to work regularly {not all the time but not almost never!}.
And I can't believe you even dared put DCs on this list!


Just getting more HP, saves, skills, and feats, arguing that level 28 is little more powerful thatn level 20 is just plain wrong.

Yeah, being off-destiny does suck. But if you are still levelling through destinies (2 years after the release of EDs) there are three lower difficulty settings that you can chose. Blame the ridiculous off-destiny grind and Karma farming on Turbine, it is working as they intend.

A Lvl 28 starting an off destiny is blatantly inferior to a Lvl 21 in maxed Main Destiny!

This isn't even arguable!

I DON'T RUN EEs!

The only reason I ran Cabal EE was because said Friend wouldn't lose his smeggin' STREAK!

And sorry but until the Devs close DDO to all Newbies AND remove the ability to roll up an alt there'll ALWAYS be someone working their way through Off Destinies!
When Destinies came out has absolutely NO bearing on the matter!



It’s not, it never has been. Nor should it. People complete, at times even solo, the hardest EEs on non-completionists all the time.

And look at those People!

We're not talking your standard DDO Players here!

Overvaan is currently levelling up a 1st Life character that has stating will run EVERY EE quest in the game Solo!
But the game should NOT be aimed at challenging him because then the rest of us would be done!


Seriously, what’s your hangup on the “ubber completionist?” They aren’t any better players than anyone else. There are great players on 32 point toons (not that common anymore as lack of end-game has made everyone TR more than pre-MoTU) and there are Triple-Completionists who are average at best. All it means is you have more free time than others.

I can't believe I'm arguing with someone who thinks that triple completionists aren't as good as him?

If you're that good then there's simply nothing Turbine can do to challenge you!

[Singular]

Disclaimer EN is still Normal - A difficulty that in no way should be aimed at anyone other than the newest of players to that quest!
A Veteran like Singular should quite simply not be challenged by EN when on a Destinied up Lvl 21 character!
However: When talking about the REAL difficulties for anyone who's not completely new to said content i.e. EH and EE we have THE real problem with Epics post MotU!
A problem that has been exacerbated by the Devs allowing those Lvl 21 Players into Lvl 26 Quests!
The issue is that Epic Levels themselves give virtually nothing! - The Power is in the Destinies!
Once you've maxed your main destiny you can step back into that destiny {In Public} at ANY time!
A Lvl 26 Quest should be aimed at characters of Lvl 24 and Up {any character below that Level should have extreme difficulties running said quest!
However:
Because of the Epic Destiny issue we have Lvl 21 Characters who are quite simply stronger than Lvl 28 Characters of the same Build played by that self-same Player!
So the Devs have shot themselves in the Feet!
They can't provide a difficulty for Lvl 21 Ubers with Maxed Out destinies that is not far too difficult for Lvl 28 1st to 5th Life Characters in an Off Destiny!

Yes, you're totally right here. Disconnecting EDs from levels creates unusual power differences between those who have maxed EDs and those who don't. And, so, yeah I see your point. On a max ED toon, I shouldn't expect even higher level quests to be challenging - but maybe level 24 and up should take into account that the player is going to have one destiny maxed at that point.


THIS is why EEs should be aimed squarely back where they're supposed to be aimed - At the Lvl 28 in an Off Destiny rather than the Lvl 21 in his MAIN destiny!

No. There are EH and EN difficulties for that. If EN is, as you write above, scaled for first lifers who don't have an ED maxed, then EH should be scaled to second lifers who do have an ED maxed. EE should be scaled to be very challenging for anyone with an ED maxed and should be extremely difficult to complete in an off destiny.


THIS is why the Devs overscaled Storm the Beaches so much!
They were trying to provide a challenge for Maxed out Players!

Nice - I haven't run that yet, but I'll give it a try. That's another thing odd about this game. It's so patchwork in that every little piece of it doesn't match the others, like no one had a clear vision that was followed but that the vision of the game changed whenever new leadership came in.


That Challenge cannot be provided in Levelling Difficulties Devs!
It has to be placed where it's supposed to be - AT END-GAME!
Now people can continue to argue that EE is that End-Game but unfortunately that is False!

I'm not arguing that and I've been agreeing with you on your points about Endgame. My position is that EE should be very challenging to at level characters - you've rightly complicated that by reinforcing that character power mostly comes from EDs at low levels.


The Devs knew when they first created Epics that Favour should not be rewarded in said Epics - We can still get no more favour for EE VoN 3 or Partycrashers or Cabal or GoP than for the Heroic versions!
When we had an ACTUAL End-Game - Pre MotU Epics - There was no XP either in Epics!
The reason to run Epics was for the LOOT - Which required INSANE Grinding!

Yeah, the reason I didn't run those - and notice the patchwork nature of the game here.


So:

IF we have to have EE be super difficult as so many seem to want AND be aimed squarely at the top 10%!

- Remove the Favour from EE in ALL Epic Quests - Move it to EH so we don't lose that Favour!
- Add Favour to the Epic Quests that don't currently give any {On EH only!} so that we don't get more reward for running some quests than others!
- Move all EE items back down to EH, Move all EH items back down to EN and remove all EN items {not retrospectively!} from the game!
- Move the EE Saga Rewards down to EH, Move the EH Saga Rewards down to EN! ADD New Cosmetic ONLY Saga Rewards to EE Completions!
- Treble the XP Rewards in ALL EE Lvl 22-26 Quests so that the Ubers can stick to those quests to get back to cap!

NOW You can Up the Difficulty of those EE Quests that are currently too easy for said Ubers!

Once you've made it so that non-ubers have NO valid reason to ever step into said EE Quests!

P.S. Yes I know there'll be non-ubers who consider 3x the XP of Current Epic Elites to be a very valid reason!
BUT I'd happily agree with the Ubers when those people start moaning that EE is too hard!
XP is not now and never has been the reason we play DDO!

Ok, that's one suggestion - and a good one. These are things we should talk about.

One minor point - xp is the reason I play! It's hard for me to want to stay at cap. Mind you, we don't have an endgame, so maybe it's ok not to.

[FranOhmsford]

You missed "Adopt this play style utilizing this cookie cutter build".

How on God's Earth did I miss that one?

Sorry!

[Gremmlynn]

Except that I can't help but notice that the game has been losing players as it has become easier and more casual. It is a vicious cycle. As the game gets easier, more and more power gamers leave. As the power gamers leave, DDO needs to rely more and more on the whales, meaning making the game easier, creating time sink barriers and adding barrier reduction into the store.

It's a death spiral.Yep. But it's what can keep the game around for a while.

The game itself pretty much caused this. Turbine spent their time developing a pretty good game and a heavily D&D based game. Rather than an average, but fairly well balanced (through limiting player skill and ingenuity), diverse, thoroughly planned out and, most importantly, BIG game. Not to mention that they had a partner that wanted nothing more than for DDO to fail. That just brought in Turbine to do the scut work for a game Hasbro wanted made, but had no real interest in themselves beyond retaining their exclusive license.

No MMO is going to stand the test of time if it doesn't attract the masses early and offer enough to do to keep them hooked for years.

[Monkey-Boy]

I DON'T RUN EEs!



Then why do you care?

[Powskier]

buffs were OP before update...buffs are silly when looked at from outside..and now players want a new game to replace this one cause they have no challenge? c'mon don't click that shiny button..The Ever Enticing Button.....using it turns you into a bloated sack of protoplasm

[Singular]

Tell me about it, the combat in DDO is crack to my inner Whitney Houston.

All other MMOs pale in comparison.

Yeah. So once I realized that, I understood that we have a kind of very, very complex super mario brothers. My enjoyment comes from perfecting multiple actions in a fast paced environment and staying alive. Unfortunately, because of the static nature of the quests, that can involve a lot of metagaming. If only our quests were randomized like Diablo's were/are. Or parts of them. Or they had some surprise, like traps moving around.

I mean...I was in an EH Shadowdragon raid and one person was calling out the timing of when the casters would appear to the second. "Next one is South in 15 seconds." etc. It's like we're a ragtag, poorly put together military fighting a perfectly working, non-variable machine. Oh, right, we are (except for the 'perfectly working' part).

[Blackheartox]

I am not a good player fran, im just a player who has knowledge.
Good players on cannith were tsawn, piao, beyt , lotus etc etc.
I can name many many, but all of them dont play anymore.
And i wonder why.
But most common answer is that:


All of those players quit since ddo didnt provide a thrill or challenge anymore.

Im a hardcore player but far from good, i consider myself mostly decent with a strong build basic and play mechanics, but im a better builder then player anyways.
IF i can complete epic elite on nonperfect fully optimized for epic elite builds then let me ask you, what can one of those former amazing players on a fully optimized build do?
A fully optimized build /that you dont run/ is currently so strong in this game that it doesnt matter who controls it, the character on its own is so powerful that it can carry a bad player towards epic elite completition.
Epic elite being highest challenge that exists in game.

That is what i find absurd and silly.
IF you dont follow the trend you are being inefficient, if you follow the trend its to easy..
I just dont get what they want us to do?
Do they want that weekend players are able to solo epic elite raids in a few months?

What is the purpose behind epic elite now?
No reward, time waste, no challenge.
What does it serve?


And dont get me started about necro 4 where people get +6 upgrade tomes on eh, yet me who was running epic elite am getting only +5s.
IT just does not make any sense

[FranOhmsford]

Then why do you care?

Do I really have to answer this?

OK...

I DON'T RUN EEs does not mean I don't want to run EEs!

It means I know perfectly well that EEs as are currently scaled are not worth my time!

I've ran the ones at Lvl 21-24 except for CitW, FoT and the 3BC End Quest that provide favour on the character I'm trying to hit 5,000 on - Also grabbed the Saga Rewards while I was at it!

BUT

Until I need that Favour again there is absolutely NO reason for me to step into an EE!

That is WRONG!

[Oxarhamar]

wow ,all the OverPowered toons! WoW ...every one is running with three rows of buffs on their character...oh ,so powerfull...gosh we are really impressed down here. I'm not near a one shot EE solo player,but it is really ironic that the same players who says the game is to easy ,are also on the ship buff team. Are ship buffs just addicting? I use 8 buffs on a smaller ship;it feels like a huge power creep...so kudos all ya with 20 or more buffs ..who say the game is to easy.

Funny before the revamp of the buffs to come from the buff bar in one click I had not been using more than the XP shrine because, to me buffing was a waste of time and not needed.

I've completed every quest in Heroic & Epic on Elite many solo with just the XP shrine buffs are not needed and not going to hinder a player capable of soloing EE by taking away thier buffs.

[Gremmlynn]

This is hilarious. You're gonna quit playing because you see a player with a special set of wings around his name, or a cosmetic helmet acquired by completing elite quests?

You did feel some tiny amount of pride the first time u had wings around your name?Actually, just a feeling of tackiness and a desire for a way to turn them off.

[FranOhmsford]

I am not a good player fran, im just a player who has knowledge.

No - Not buying it!


Good players on cannith were tsawn, piao, beyt , lotus etc etc.

I'm sure I've seen Tsawn on line recently.
No idea who Piao and Beyt are!
Lotus - Well it's who you ask on Lotus - I think he was the 1st Completionist on Cannith which I suppose does mean something!


I can name many many, but all of them dont play anymore.
And i wonder why.
But most common answer is that:


All of those players quit since ddo didnt provide a thrill or challenge anymore.

You master the game you MASTER the game!

The Thrill is GONE!
The Challenge is GONE!

BECAUSE YOU'VE MASTERED THE GAME!

[FranOhmsford]

And dont get me started about necro 4 where people get +6 upgrade tomes on eh, yet me who was running epic elite am getting only +5s.
IT just does not make any sense

That's because of the randomness of the Loot Gods!

[Singular]

NYou master the game you MASTER the game!

The Thrill is GONE!
The Challenge is GONE!

BECAUSE YOU'VE MASTERED THE GAME!

After that, you live the game.

[Powskier]

Show me on the doll where the bad power gamer touched you.

power gamers cant be stopped,but they are lookin silly as hell wearin 20-30 buffs and butchin about how they solo everything(whatever ,they are likely being paid to play by taxpayers/ie college loan hoars who never leave computers,thx for nothin bama)...I cant tell you where they touched me ,this is a G rated audience.

[Powskier]

all buffs needed were a quick button and time extension...we really didnt need xtra Buffs on top of existing buffs,ddo went Overboard w the Ships

[depositbox]

Tell me about it, the combat in DDO is crack to my inner Whitney Houston.

All other MMOs pale in comparison.

So much this. Best combat system of all time.

[Cathimon]

I find it easier to blame Turbine for introducing ship buffs than to blame the players for using them. Same thing for all the cheating going on... Nobody gets punished, it's influencing others to start cheating.

[Blackheartox]

I find it easier to blame Turbine for introducing ship buffs than to blame the players for using them. Same thing for all the cheating going on... Nobody gets punished, it's influencing others to start cheating.

As i have said several times alrdy

Cheating has gotten to the point where it isnt considerd a cheat anymore but a game feature.
Sad, just sad


Practical example, i go to astral store and see a meteoric star ruby that i want to buy for 50 astrals.
Cool, i buy it bum 50 astrals lost.
10 seconds after that, there is 1 more up..
Cool cheap i buy that as well.
Bum..
New one up..
You can do this for the whole day and 1 will always appear.
While someone is cashing astrals and making new augments on click..

Now what is a honest player gonna do about that?
Options:
Research how to that himself
Rage on forums
Ignore never buy again
Quit game
Buy when you need but be angry for providing astrals to someone

Most will pick first option, some will pick last, extremes will quit 4, and i bet noone will pick 3rd and few rare people will pick 2nd and see its waste of time after threads are closed and nothing done to prevent that

[DarthCaedus]

Time sink is not difficulty.

ETA: Though I can see why some people think so. DDO has become a game geared towards endless grinding, where time is the block and the store is the thing used to monetize the game by providing a way to remove the blocks.

It shouldn't be this way. The actual block should be difficulty.

If it was easy it would not be a time sink. Are you saying it takes you that much longer to run ee that 4x rewards are not good enough?

[Monkey-Boy]

all buffs needed were a quick button and time extension...we really didnt need xtra Buffs on top of existing buffs,ddo went Overboard w the Ships

Dude, it was a cash grab. With that being what it was expecting people to not use stuff that somebody paid real money for ain't gonna happen.

[Monkey-Boy]

Do I really have to answer this?

OK...

I DON'T RUN EEs does not mean I don't want to run EEs!




But you want EE made easier instead of improving your characters/gameplay to the point where you are ready? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding this.

[jalont]

If it was easy it would not be a time sink. Are you saying it takes you that much longer to run ee that 4x rewards are not good enough?

I run exclusively EE. EE became worth the time with the advent of the sagas. Since u23, EE takes barely any longer than EH to complete.

Again, time sinks do not equal challenge. EE used to not be worth it because it took so long to beat down mobs. But again, this isn't challenge. It can take four months to beat down a mob, but there is no challenge if there's no actual chance at failure.

[DarthCaedus]

Oh heaven forbid players get FRUSTRATED trying to complete the games hardest difficulty. Elite has a definition

It also doesn't need to be the most efficient in terms of xp/min. It just needs to adequately reward

And the rewards dont need to be more power. It could be as simple as an in-game cosmetic that says a player has earned a certain amount of EE favor. "Im better than you" goes a long way

There are tons of other reward options out there, including obviously awesome gear, that would give the top tier player a new goal

Even if the reward is ridiculously outrageously good they will complain they run EH because it's easier to farm. Cosmetics would be fine, but will it end "the ee loot isn't good enough threads".

I think getting a good degree, good job and balanced personal life goes much further if someone wants to make the argument "I'm better than you". Is it really Turbine's job to boost egos of people with fragile self-esteems that need to assert "I'm better than you"? Does this really help the game? I don't think so.

The PVE portion of the game is really intended to be a cooperative game and almost every experience I have would support that most people want this to be a cooperative game. What you want is to insert some sort of PVP aspect to the PVE portion fo the game which is a horrendously awful idea that wouldn't even ultimately please the tiny fraction of the players that want it.

[Gremmlynn]

...So:

IF we have to have EE be super difficult as so many seem to want AND be aimed squarely at the top 10%!

- Remove the Favour from EE in ALL Epic Quests - Move it to EH so we don't lose that Favour!
- Add Favour to the Epic Quests that don't currently give any {On EH only!} so that we don't get more reward for running some quests than others!
- Move all EE items back down to EH, Move all EH items back down to EN and remove all EN items {not retrospectively!} from the game!
- Move the EE Saga Rewards down to EH, Move the EH Saga Rewards down to EN! ADD New Cosmetic ONLY Saga Rewards to EE Completions!
- Treble the XP Rewards in ALL EE Lvl 22-26 Quests so that the Ubers can stick to those quests to get back to cap!

NOW You can Up the Difficulty of those EE Quests that are currently too easy for said Ubers!

Once you've made it so that non-ubers have NO valid reason to ever step into said EE Quests!

P.S. Yes I know there'll be non-ubers who consider 3x the XP of Current Epic Elites to be a very valid reason!
BUT I'd happily agree with the Ubers when those people start moaning that EE is too hard!
XP is not now and never has been the reason we play DDO!Spot on.

[oldkraft2]

The shipbuffs dont bother me at all ...

its a long tread and maybe someone has already mentined ?
The 'true elitist very easy to install thing' is much the same as current elite w a twist : ,
available in any quest AND raid : solo ! as in 'Party of exclusively one'.

elite

[Qhualor]

If elite rewards are 4x better odds than getting the same thing as normal it definitely demonstrates they aren't finding elite too easy. Otherwise why not just run on elite?

I already pointed out why. Its more efficient and rewarding to run lower difficulties. For xp, run elite 1× for BB and saga. For loot, run normal.

[DarthCaedus]

I run exclusively EE. EE became worth the time with the advent of the sagas. Since u23, EE takes barely any longer than EH to complete.

Again, time sinks do not equal challenge. EE used to not be worth it because it took so long to beat down mobs. But again, this isn't challenge. It can take four months to beat down a mob, but there is no challenge if there's no actual chance at failure.

I think most people playing 20+ hours per week run only EE and complete EE in about the same time as EH.

As you said adding HP, increased save requirements, etc. does nothing to add to the challenge. So what can Turbine do to increase challenge with limited resources and an AI that can be easily outsmarted?

Do the people complaining about challenge realize what they are asking for is impossible outside of PVP without significant investment from Turbine which won't happen.

Nerfs and monster boosts will do nothing because the people that mastered the AI work arounds (aka "Skill") still have those mastered.

[DarthCaedus]

I already pointed out why. Its more efficient and rewarding to run lower difficulties. For xp, run elite 1× for BB and saga. For loot, run normal.

So it takes you 4x longer to complete EE vs. EN since you are willing to except 1/4 the drop rate?

[Qhualor]

So it takes you 4x longer to complete EE vs. EN since you are willing to except 1/4 the drop rate?

I'm not talking about me, but yes that's what many do.

[Monkey-Boy]

As you said adding HP, increased save requirements, etc. does nothing to add to the challenge. So what can Turbine do to increase challenge with limited resources and an AI that can be easily outsmarted?


"In the Flesh"

it requires creative mechanics, not an easy thing to do and I don't expect it in every quest.

[NyteByrd1017]

I can name many many, but all of them dont play anymore.
And i wonder why.
But most common answer is that:


All of those players quit since ddo didnt provide a thrill or challenge anymore.



People do get tired of playing a game after a while. It is a fact of gaming life that players move in and out all the time.

So how do you get oldtime players to come back in? You give them something to bring them back in. To bring it all back to Mabar, that's what brought many former players back in. They enjoyed the event. They renewed the VIP subscription. Or continued on Premium. They explored old haunts or new areas of the game.

I'll go on record that I believe cancelling Mabar was the single most destructive thing that could have been done to the health and long term viability of DDO. It ****ed players off. It certainly did not encourage them to stay.

And if I may ask, what is this "end game" people keep talking about. This is a quest based server and not an RPG server.

[DarthCaedus]

"In the Flesh"

it requires creative mechanics, not an easy thing to do and I don't expect it in every quest.

And what are those? I haven't seen a wipe in there since it was a new quest before people figured out how to crush it.

[Gremmlynn]

While I can get behind knocking the cookie-cutter builds thingy (they are not needed), but adapting your play-style to what's effective is part of being a good player. The game changes and you do need to change with it.

Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. If what you're doing isn't working you need to adjust what you're doing.

This isn't pen and paper, your DM cannot adapt the game to the players. The players need to adapt to the game unless they like ice-skating uphill.What does being a good player have to do with it?

The game exists to entertain the player, not to make them a better player unless that is what they find entertaining.

Designing a game to be played one way is only attractive to those players who actually are entertained by playing that way. For anyone else, it's just an indication that they are playing the wrong game.

Adapting one's play is one thing, changing to a completely different style of play is more akin to playing a completely different game (if I sign up for the football team, I don't expect to end up playing basketball is the analogy I find fitting).

[Qhualor]

"In the Flesh"

it requires creative mechanics, not an easy thing to do and I don't expect it in every quest.

The end fight was nerfed. Its a lot easier to complete now.

[virtualgib]

If I have ever seen a cool story, bro-scenario...

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab154/qweeve/xb9yt0jpg.gif (http://s859.photobucket.com/user/qweeve/media/xb9yt0jpg.gif.html)

[Vint]

People do get tired of playing a game after a while. It is a fact of gaming life that players move in and out all the time.

So how do you get oldtime players to come back in? You give them something to bring them back in. To bring it all back to Mabar, that's what brought many former players back in. They enjoyed the event. They renewed the VIP subscription. Or continued on Premium. They explored old haunts or new areas of the game.

I'll go on record that I believe cancelling Mabar was the single most destructive thing that could have been done to the health and long term viability of DDO. It ****ed players off. It certainly did not encourage them to stay.

And if I may ask, what is this "end game" people keep talking about. This is a quest based server and not an RPG server.

Having an endgame that allows any class to solo EE is what is and has been driving away all the players. Old friends logged on when Epic Orchard was released, were not challenged, got their loot in a day, and then they may log back on in a few months when there is a challenge.

I will miss Mabar, but it was too laggy and players do not want to come back to the game just to waste time in the instance to wipe when the lag monster takes over.

If you want players to come back then you either need a real end game with raids or you give them a challenge worth doing. There is no need for them to come back to a game and earn epic completionist and have a million past lives if they can solo the hardest content with very little invested in a toon. (My first life bard is soling everything, who would have thought?)

[Monkey-Boy]

What does being a good player have to do with it?

The game exists to entertain the player, not to make them a better player unless that is what they find entertaining.

Designing a game to be played one way is only attractive to those players who actually are entertained by playing that way. For anyone else, it's just an indication that they are playing the wrong game.

Adapting one's play is one thing, changing to a completely different style of play is more akin to playing a completely different game (if I sign up for the football team, I don't expect to end up playing basketball is the analogy I find fitting).

Nonsense. if you want to be effective in this game (do I have to define the word "effective"?) you need to adapt to its changes.

That or whine on the forums that EE should be nerfed because you can't beat it, one or the other. I would say adapting is more effective but then again bards and paladins . . .

[Gremmlynn]

A Wizard doesn't hit the wall until long after that!
Neither does a Cleric!
Or a Bard!
Or a Fighter!
Or any Class you care to mention!You and I have very different ideas of what that wall is. Personally, I don't see any past lives really worth the effort involved in getting them, mostly because I end up throwing away a lot more, by rerolling a level 20 character, than I actually gain. More a poor trade off than actually gaining anything.

[Gremmlynn]

I am not a good player fran, im just a player who has knowledge.
Good players on cannith were tsawn, piao, beyt , lotus etc etc.
I can name many many, but all of them dont play anymore.
And i wonder why.
But most common answer is that:


All of those players quit since ddo didnt provide a thrill or challenge anymore.It's very likely that it simply isn't cost effective to try to keep players above a certain level around. If it costs more to develop content for them then they represent in revenue, this would be a no brainer. Or even more likely, if the games budget is so limited as to have to choose a limited number of things they even can do it's hard to expect one of those to be to chase they minority at the top. It's simply not worth the effort to try to keep up with them when there are much slower players to chase.


Im a hardcore player but far from good, i consider myself mostly decent with a strong build basic and play mechanics, but im a better builder then player anyways.
IF i can complete epic elite on nonperfect fully optimized for epic elite builds then let me ask you, what can one of those former amazing players on a fully optimized build do?
A fully optimized build /that you dont run/ is currently so strong in this game that it doesnt matter who controls it, the character on its own is so powerful that it can carry a bad player towards epic elite completition.
Epic elite being highest challenge that exists in game.

That is what i find absurd and silly.
IF you dont follow the trend you are being inefficient, if you follow the trend its to easy..
I just dont get what they want us to do?
Do they want that weekend players are able to solo epic elite raids in a few months?

What is the purpose behind epic elite now?
No reward, time waste, no challenge.
What does it serve?


And dont get me started about necro 4 where people get +6 upgrade tomes on eh, yet me who was running epic elite am getting only +5s.
IT just does not make any senseEE is leveling content. The game has no end game, nor do I expect to see one until they settle in to a long term level cap. It simply isn't worthwhile to develop a long end game grind if it's going to become irrelevant. Even with TR twinking, I don't know anyone who grinds out 20th lists for gear they will just use for a couple levels.

[jalont]

I think most people playing 20+ hours per week run only EE and complete EE in about the same time as EH.

As you said adding HP, increased save requirements, etc. does nothing to add to the challenge. So what can Turbine do to increase challenge with limited resources and an AI that can be easily outsmarted?

Do the people complaining about challenge realize what they are asking for is impossible outside of PVP without significant investment from Turbine which won't happen.

Nerfs and monster boosts will do nothing because the people that mastered the AI work arounds (aka "Skill") still have those mastered.

Well we could start by reversing the recent mrr, prr and pally changes so that while you are beating on a mob, they have a chance to damage you enough to kill you.

[Gremmlynn]

As i have said several times alrdy

Cheating has gotten to the point where it isnt considerd a cheat anymore but a game feature.
Sad, just sad


Practical example, i go to astral store and see a meteoric star ruby that i want to buy for 50 astrals.
Cool, i buy it bum 50 astrals lost.
10 seconds after that, there is 1 more up..
Cool cheap i buy that as well.
Bum..
New one up..
You can do this for the whole day and 1 will always appear.
While someone is cashing astrals and making new augments on click..

Now what is a honest player gonna do about that?
Options:
Research how to that himself
Rage on forums
Ignore never buy again
Quit game
Buy when you need but be angry for providing astrals to someone

Most will pick first option, some will pick last, extremes will quit 4, and i bet noone will pick 3rd and few rare people will pick 2nd and see its waste of time after threads are closed and nothing done to prevent thatI'd pick the third as that is what I do anyway. I don't play MMOs to shop for loot I can kill things for.

[Hafeal]

My gear slots are taken up - There's nowhere I can slot in all 5 Resists!

Fran, a gentle, friendly reminder that an exclamation point is not a period.

Now, as you know, there are very few quests you need all 5 resists. So, use your prior game knowledge to just get what you need. But, you do not need to wear gear to get your resists. Use your inventory to stock a pot or wand. Yes, they get dispelled - consider that the AI getting one in on ya. ;)







Whats wrong with giving "uber completionists" more to do?

Because the ubers are small percentage of the player base and will never be satisfied. DDO's 5 year fascination of trying this hasn't kept the ubers in the game. Time to try something different - like remember the game exists before level 15.




Except that I can't help but notice that the game has been losing players as it has become easier and more casual. It is a vicious cycle. As the game gets easier, more and more power gamers leave. As the power gamers leave, DDO needs to rely more and more on the whales, meaning making the game easier, creating time sink barriers and adding barrier reduction into the store.

It's a death spiral.

See, the way I look at it is that casual players leave because the devs have paid no attention to the game before level 15 - new players are left in a lurch. The "fun", "vet will teach you" atmosphere of 2007 no longer exists. So, you need to recreate the game at low levels to retain and attract players.

Power gamers are a small segment of the population. Catering to them will lose you the casual player you need to grow the game. The PGs will burn out and go, no matter how fast you try churn out content or challenge them - it is what they do. They will come back for periods of new content and leave again. 5 years of focus on them certainly has not grown DDO or helped retain more casual players.

And who are the whales? Casuals with a PG inner desire who throw down a chunk of cash and then move onto the next game? Or is it PGs cutting corners and hastening on to the next game? And how does focusing on the whales = making the game easier?

DDO is not easy - that is the problem. Character building and the grind for xp is unkind to new players. Especially when you can't fill a group.



It's a totally different conversation, but retention of new people in DDO needs to be addressed. Though most of them leave before any of the stuff we're discussing in this thread comes into play.

Most leave, imo, because of the focus on what we are talking about and the ignoring of the issues new and casual players face upon coming into DDO, for many of the reasons I stated above. I find most PGers have a very difficult time empathizing with new players or putting themselves in the place of someone new to the game.

[phillymiket]

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/743/AuikZh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/knAuikZhj)

Apparently when I use my ship OP gets a buff to his purity level and feelings of accomplishment.

Must be a new shrine somewhere down in the lower decks.

[Rull]

When I play a game, I want the game to be challenging.

As a player, I will do anything to accomplish that challenge most efficiently.

If I find the process not entertaining (for instance because the challenge was too easy, or if the most efficient way is repetitive), I will stop playing that game.

---

As a game designer and consumer, I will ask for changes to the game, in order to increase my enjoyment of playing it. Sometimes I even advice on changes when I think they would make the game better for others as well (I try to make explicit from what point of view I am speaking if I think there is a difference)

So I will continue picking up ship buffs when I play the game, but also advocate removal of those same ship buffs.
I will continue to run lava caves / rusted blades / impossible demands / whatever, and also ask for a change for these quest because doing them is pretty boring.
I will play the most OP flavor of the month builds, and recommend nerfs to them because they obsolete many other builds.

[Blackheartox]

Fran, a gentle, friendly reminder that an exclamation point is not a period.

Now, as you know, there are very few quests you need all 5 resists. So, use your prior game knowledge to just get what you need. But, you do not need to wear gear to get your resists. Use your inventory to stock a pot or wand. Yes, they get dispelled - consider that the AI getting one in on ya. ;)







Because the ubers are small percentage of the player base and will never be satisfied. DDO's 5 year fascination of trying this hasn't kept the ubers in the game. Time to try something different - like remember the game exists before level 15.





See, the way I look at it is that casual players leave because the devs have paid no attention to the game before level 15 - new players are left in a lurch. The "fun", "vet will teach you" atmosphere of 2007 no longer exists. So, you need to recreate the game at low levels to retain and attract players.

Power gamers are a small segment of the population. Catering to them will lose you the casual player you need to grow the game. The PGs will burn out and go, no matter how fast you try churn out content or challenge them - it is what they do. They will come back for periods of new content and leave again. 5 years of focus on them certainly has not grown DDO or helped retain more casual players.

And who are the whales? Casuals with a PG inner desire who throw down a chunk of cash and then move onto the next game? Or is it PGs cutting corners and hastening on to the next game? And how does focusing on the whales = making the game easier?

DDO is not easy - that is the problem. Character building and the grind for xp is unkind to new players. Especially when you can't fill a group.




Most leave, imo, because of the focus on what we are talking about and the ignoring of the issues new and casual players face upon coming into DDO, for many of the reasons I stated above. I find most PGers have a very difficult time empathizing with new players or putting themselves in the place of someone new to the game.

The game does not grow, the game is becoming less and less and less with each passing day.

When i started around 2009 i would open lfm tab at any time of day and see at least 20 lfms and always a lfm for content i wanted to run.
There was always something i could do since game had more population and teamplay was better promoted.
When i was a new player, i didnt meet the arogant attitude that i myself am reflecting now due to solo only mindsetting they implemented into my head.
People can talk all they want, casuals can say wahtever they want.
But they destroyed most of the population of ddo.
Vets sticked in their vet elitist guilds and had fun while challenging and gearing their characters over years.
Casual was forced to improve himself to join those elite/epic raids and he would get considerably better after playing and learning his class.
Casuals are the root of all evil and will be the source of ddos downfall.
They are to blame, and i blame them for the upcoming shutting down of ddo as well which cant be avoided by decline of population and arrogant attitude we all present.

No1, not a single person on those forms can make me believe that ddo is a hard game on epic elite in its current state, there just is not a single person who can make me believe that prr/mrr palie bard destiny etc are not overpowered and that the epic elite meatbag coding is good.

[Gremmlynn]

I already pointed out why. Its more efficient and rewarding to run lower difficulties. For xp, run elite 1× for BB and saga. For loot, run normal.That's an issue with chain reward lists and 20th raid completion lists. Get rid of those and it's fixed.

[TalieNeEllyll]

To the people that say get rid of ship buffs, I say that would make me VERY angry.

I have spent close to $400.00 on our guild ship. I bought a lot of Astral Diamonds to help us upgrade the ship before the new ship. When the new ship came out, I bought enough Astral Shards to get the Daedalean Kraken and to buy ALL the amenities and to upgrade them as far as a level 67 guild is allowed to be upgraded. Some I even bought twice because the singles (for those that could be bought as a group) were uber KOOL compared to the group one. To now say, well weren't you stupid we are getting rid of them just is not acceptable. If people want to play without the ship buffs that is their choice removing the ship buffs as far as I am concerned is not on the table.

[Hafeal]

... When i was a new player, i didnt meet the arogant attitude that i myself am reflecting now due to solo only mindsetting they implemented into my head ...


People can talk all they want, casuals can say wahtever they want.
But they destroyed most of the population of ddo.

I don't know if you meant it like this ... but this kind of "arrogant" response to anyone not in your style of play sums a lot up for me. *Psst* hey, by the way, DDO is not responsible for the mindsetting of your head - seriously. You are free to be better than that. ;)



Casuals are the root of all evil and will be the source of ddos downfall.
They are to blame, and i blame them for the upcoming shutting down of ddo as well which cant be avoided by decline of population and arrogant attitude we all present.

What about the Kobolds? I think you need to include the Kobolds too.



No1, not a single person on those forms can make me believe that ddo is a hard game on epic elite in its current state, there just is not a single person who can make me believe that prr/mrr palie bard destiny etc are not overpowered and that the epic elite meatbag coding is good.

At least you own up to your closed mindedness.

[Gremmlynn]

Nonsense. if you want to be effective in this game (do I have to define the word "effective"?) you need to adapt to its changes.

That or whine on the forums that EE should be nerfed because you can't beat it, one or the other. I would say adapting is more effective but then again bards and paladins . . .You keep playing games like their devs think you should and I will play those who's devs make the way I want to play. To each their own.

[Monkey-Boy]

You keep playing games like their devs think you should and I will play those who's devs make the way I want to play. To each their own.

That fine for you because you're not whining for EE to be made easier. Some other people are.

[Gremmlynn]

That fine for you because you're not whining for EE to be made easier. Some other people are.No, I actually like the way they are adapting the game to EE so that attacking the weaknesses of the AI aren't the only good answer.

[EllisDee37]

My gear slots are taken up - There's nowhere I can slot in all 5 Resists!Well, there is the Draconic Soul Gem (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Draconic_Soul_Gem), which gives 30 resistance to acid, cold, electric and fire in a single yellow.

[Monkey-Boy]

Well, there is the Draconic Soul Gem (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Draconic_Soul_Gem), which gives 30 resistance to acid, cold, electric and fire in a single yellow.

He'd need to run EE for that. :)

He could maybe cast a spell? UMD a wand?

[Azarddoze]

Because I wanna hit 5000 favours easily, don't raise the difficulty of EEs for a bunch of folks to be pleased. I don't like EEs, I feel they are not worth it time-wise but please, don't make them more difficult. I NEED that favour reward that is the only thing that only elite players can get atm that others might not. NEED it. No greed at all.

Did I really read something like that?

[Qhualor]

That's an issue with chain reward lists and 20th raid completion lists. Get rid of those and it's fixed.

That and the fact that named loot drops on all difficulties. Easier to speed run quests on lower difficulties and use chest re-rolls for loot.

[Powskier]

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/743/AuikZh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/knAuikZhj)

Apparently when I use my ship OP gets a buff to his purity level and feelings of accomplishment.

Must be a new shrine somewhere down in the lower decks.

nice pic for reference...i love that movie.... the meaning of life....the fat guy near the end is a blast!

[Powskier]

He'd need to run EE for that. :)

He could maybe cast a spell? UMD a wand?

draconic soul augment is cheap as dirt in auctions(for its rarity)...sometimes you need to check for one a few days in a row...hey thank the dupers;i bought one and it just feels dirty ;been sittin in my aug bag since.Obvious same player(s) keep posting it, the price is exactly same most often.It is easy to fill resist slots anyway w/o the gem,epics really shouldn't feel they need ship resists.

[DarthCaedus]

Casuals are the root of all evil and will be the source of ddos downfall.
They are to blame, and i blame them for the upcoming shutting down of ddo as well which cant be avoided by decline of population and arrogant attitude we all present.


Most of the people I know left the game because they had other real life responsibilities and not enough time to play the game or they couldn't devote the time required to play the game.

I keep hearing how the 1% power gamers were driven away from the game due to the casual army demanding the game be easier. This resulted in a 50% decline in population since the power gamers left.

Sorry math fail.

This is a very difficult game to dabble in. If you can't put in at least 10 hours per week it's hard to make enough progress to feel good about the game. The game lost alot of casual players because they simply couldn't put the time in to make adequate progress.

So what is left is mostly hardcore players and people that play at least 10 hours per week. Gone are the days when someone can logon during the weekend and run shroud with a few alts and feel good about the progress they made for the week.

[Azarddoze]

Most of the people I know left the game because they had other real life responsibilities and not enough time to play the game or they couldn't devote the time required to play the game.

I keep hearing how the 1% power gamers were driven away from the game due to the casual army demanding the game be easier. This resulted in a 50% decline in population since the power gamers left.

Sorry math fail.

This is a very difficult game to dabble in. If you can't put in at least 10 hours per week it's hard to make enough progress to feel good about the game. The game lost alot of casual players because they simply couldn't put the time in to make adequate progress.

So what is left is mostly hardcore players and people that play at least 10 hours per week. Gone are the days when someone can logon during the weekend and run shroud with a few alts and feel good about the progress they made for the week.

Losing power gamers has an impact other than their direct departures. First of all, it has an effect on the close circle who might also question themselves if it's still worth playing. They might also leave because that one friend was their reason.

More importantly, I would guess it has a huge impact on the pugging scene which will lead to further more negative effect overall.

And btw, at this point if you think that this kind of top difficulty is ridiculous only for 1% of the playerbase (and not only current playerbase --- past is relevant here since you calculate from a 50% loss), I have to say that you gotta be wrong. And far off.

But of course more players leave for personal reasons even though they sometimes will blame the game. On that point you are right.

[Gremmlynn]

That and the fact that named loot drops on all difficulties. Easier to speed run quests on lower difficulties and use chest re-rolls for loot.The whole issue just shows a lack of self discipline amongst those who do so IMO. Basically asking Turbine to force them to do what they they claim they want to do by only offering what they want from doing it. Thereby possibly preventing others from doing so despite how much they may have paid for the experience.

I don't know why everyone can't figure out to just play the game the way they like and the rest will come when and if it comes.

[Blackheartox]

Most of the people I know left the game because they had other real life responsibilities and not enough time to play the game or they couldn't devote the time required to play the game.

I keep hearing how the 1% power gamers were driven away from the game due to the casual army demanding the game be easier. This resulted in a 50% decline in population since the power gamers left.

Sorry math fail.

This is a very difficult game to dabble in. If you can't put in at least 10 hours per week it's hard to make enough progress to feel good about the game. The game lost alot of casual players because they simply couldn't put the time in to make adequate progress.

So what is left is mostly hardcore players and people that play at least 10 hours per week. Gone are the days when someone can logon during the weekend and run shroud with a few alts and feel good about the progress they made for the week.

Will copy past a nice reference i put in a another thread about how i look at it and it is mostly correct.

We had selfsufficiency before 2009, as i know the moment heal scrolls were added to game it all started.
Issue is that it took effort, specialized builds and sacrifices to achieve high level of selfsufficiency for most builds.
Some of us took the bait and did it, we didnt complain, we worked toward those +3 to umd from completionist and we were happy to be able to play a drow cc sorc which could selfheal to a degree..

But then random jack from the street saw that and looked around it, totally ignoring that mr drownuker put 3-4 years to get to that point, came to threads and said: ME NO LIKE MY AXE SWING BUT HE BUM BUM FIRE NECRO AND I DEAD HE ALIVE HP UP.


THen they added cocoon, they added umd tomes, they added epic skills, they added + bazilion charisma gear, they added bladeforged, they buffed bards, they buffed paladins.

Its sad what they are doing because of jack.
I blame jack, its all his fault.
Without jack saying what he said, you would have several and only handfull per server drownukers while the rest would be happily joining lfms, clerics would heal, tanks would tank, ccs would cc, bards would uhmm be support healers and singers..
Etc etc..



Its mister casual jacks fault, not drownukers as he has never said a word about being unhappy.
The worst drownuker could say would be: why did jack loot air savant ring in tod and charisma tome?

Threads were positive and you could get a laugh at peoples snobizm and elitism, we had different issues but game was definitely more positive then it is now and was more populated

[FranOhmsford]

Will copy past a nice reference i put in a another thread about how i look at it and it is mostly correct.

We had selfsufficiency before 2009, as i know the moment heal scrolls were added to game it all started.
Issue is that it took effort, specialized builds and sacrifices to achieve high level of selfsufficiency for most builds.
Some of us took the bait and did it, we didnt complain, we worked toward those +3 to umd from completionist and we were happy to be able to play a drow cc sorc which could selfheal to a degree..

But then random jack from the street saw that and looked around it, totally ignoring that mr drownuker put 3-4 years to get to that point, came to threads and said: ME NO LIKE MY AXE SWING BUT HE BUM BUM FIRE NECRO AND I DEAD HE ALIVE HP UP

This is Bass Ackwards!

It wasn't Mr Random Jack from the Street who was complaining that he had no self sufficiency!
It was the Ubers who had said Self-Sufficiency telling anyone and everyone that if you didn't have it you couldn't run with them!

The Devs finally realised that it had got to the point where something had to be done and because it's Turbine we're talking about they then went and did completely the opposite!

Now we've got those self-same Ubers telling people "You don't have Cocoon you can't run with us"!


It's the same problem today as it was then only with a different requirement!
Rather than Heal Scrolls/UMD it's Cocoon/Heal Amp!

[DarthCaedus]

Its mister casual jacks fault, not drownukers as he has never said a word about being unhappy.

You are very wrong. Very few casual players ever post on these forums. The people that seem to post alot and complain alot are the ones that also play alot. Their opinion is overly represented relative to their share of the DDO population.

Can you show me the posts where these casual jacks made requests that ruined the game? It sounds like there are so many so you should have no problem with it.

[DarthCaedus]

This is Bass Ackwards!

It wasn't Mr Random Jack from the Street who was complaining that he had no self sufficiency!
It was the Ubers who had said Self-Sufficiency telling anyone and everyone that if you didn't have it you couldn't run with them!

The Devs finally realised that it had got to the point where something had to be done and because it's Turbine we're talking about they then went and did completely the opposite!

Now we've got those self-same Ubers telling people "You don't have Cocoon you can't run with us"!


It's the same problem today as it was then only with a different requirement!
Rather than Heal Scrolls/UMD it's Cocoon/Heal Amp!

This is what I remember also. If you weren't self sufficient you would be left where you died and have to release after the quest was finished.

[Qhualor]

Most of the people I know left the game because they had other real life responsibilities and not enough time to play the game or they couldn't devote the time required to play the game.

I keep hearing how the 1% power gamers were driven away from the game due to the casual army demanding the game be easier. This resulted in a 50% decline in population since the power gamers left.

Sorry math fail.

This is a very difficult game to dabble in. If you can't put in at least 10 hours per week it's hard to make enough progress to feel good about the game. The game lost alot of casual players because they simply couldn't put the time in to make adequate progress.

So what is left is mostly hardcore players and people that play at least 10 hours per week. Gone are the days when someone can logon during the weekend and run shroud with a few alts and feel good about the progress they made for the week.

i suggest looking up Bowser Koopa on the forums. hes explained very well on the impact that these "1%" players have on the game.

[DarthCaedus]

i suggest looking up Bowser Koopa on the forums. hes explained very well on the impact that these "1%" players have on the game.

I encounter them in game and realize exactly what impact they have on the game. They've mostly driven people away.

[Qhualor]

I encounter them in game and realize exactly what impact they have on the game. They've mostly driven people away.

all the more reason to check out his posts on the subject. he explains the difference between elitist and elite.

[Azarddoze]

I encounter them in game and realize exactly what impact they have on the game. They've mostly driven people away.

The only time that is true in game is when a good player ends up playing with a not so good player on a high difficulty setting. Bad experiences mostly come from people not being "ready enought" and from the occasional jerks (internet reality) which are not pro players all the time.

If there would be distinct difficulties to separate them, you wouldn't even hear from the best players if you are not playing on the same difficulty setting.

The nerfs (through power creep) are the transparent changes we can easily see. That tells who impact the game most.

[Qhualor]

The only reason that is true in game is when a good player ends up playing with a not so good player on a high difficulty settings. Bad experiences mostly come from people not being "ready enought" and from the occasional jerks (internet reality) which are not pro players all the time.

If there would be distinct difficulties to separate them, you wouldn't even hear from the best players if you are not playing on the same difficulty setting.

The nerfs (through power creep) are the transparent changes we can easily see. That tells who impact the game most.

yup.

[FestusHood]

all the more reason to check out his posts on the subject. he explains the difference between elitist and elite.

The difference would be more clear if we began to use the term snobbish instead of elitist. Seems more accurate to me too.

[Archangel666]

all the more reason to check out his posts on the subject. he explains the difference between elitist and elite.

I don't think I've read the thread you're referring to, though I've read some of Bowser's stuff before.

However, one would think that the difference between Elite and Elitism would be fairly obvious.

One has to do with skill level (Though I use that term slightly tongue in cheek, this is after all a computer game), while the other has to do with attitude.

I've met players with elitist attitudes who didn't posses the skills they thought they did.

I've also met players who would be classed as Elite who were not in the slightest bit Elitist.

The latter group tend to be fun to group with. They tend to be more laid back and if things hit the fan, they know they can turn it around.

[Jeralrik]

I don't have much ground to stand on since I haven't played the game for awhile but I did love this game a lot, I think my highest level is a 19 cleric which I had since the day the game launched in Jan 2006 he's a standard 28 point build and I enjoyed playing him but I wasn't allowed to run in groups with him anymore because he wasn't a 32 point build and thus everyone felt I was to weak.

So I made a Wizard got to level 17 but by then I started loosing interest as the game moved to F2P and suddenly grouping didn't matter anymore and the superman builds became more an more popular, if you couldn't solo it you weren't good enough.

The whole point of why I loved this game was for the grouping and questing using unique talents to defeat and plunder the dungeons and everyone had an important role somewhere along the line Turbine lost this and catered to the wrong crowd.

I recently started playing again so I created a new level 1 Dwarf Barbarian to help myself relearn the ropes by the time I got to Water Works still one of my favorites aside from the Steam Tunnels a Paladin asked me to join him while working in elite level the Paladin kept commenting that they really need to come out more difficulty's or increase the difficulty's that are in place. I asked him really I find these guys rather tough as I keep getting killed and he kept refusing to take me to a shrine so I would have to release and take a penalty. He assumed I was a terrible player who must only be on my 10th TR an I mention I have no TR levels I'm a new person. He was like what you people still exist I'm on my 81st TR and recommended I find another game like WoW and leave DDO to the professionals.

Like dang the attitudes in this game have gone way past elitist.

So you have many many levels of TR and several lines of ship buffs one would wonder how these types of characters can find any challenge at all!

just my 2 cents from a returning somewhat casual player trying to figure out of DDO should get my Sub again.

[Archangel666]

I don't have much ground to stand on since I haven't played the game for awhile but I did love this game a lot, I think my highest level is a 19 cleric which I had since the day the game launched in Jan 2006 he's a standard 28 point build and I enjoyed playing him but I wasn't allowed to run in groups with him anymore because he wasn't a 32 point build and thus everyone felt I was to weak.

So I made a Wizard got to level 17 but by then I started loosing interest as the game moved to F2P and suddenly grouping didn't matter anymore and the superman builds became more an more popular, if you couldn't solo it you weren't good enough.

The whole point of why I loved this game was for the grouping and questing using unique talents to defeat and plunder the dungeons and everyone had an important role somewhere along the line Turbine lost this and catered to the wrong crowd.

I recently started playing again so I created a new level 1 Dwarf Barbarian to help myself relearn the ropes by the time I got to Water Works still one of my favorites aside from the Steam Tunnels a Paladin asked me to join him while working in elite level the Paladin kept commenting that they really need to come out more difficulty's or increase the difficulty's that are in place. I asked him really I find these guys rather tough as I keep getting killed and he kept refusing to take me to a shrine so I would have to release and take a penalty. He assumed I was a terrible player who must only be on my 10th TR an I mention I have no TR levels I'm a new person. He was like what you people still exist I'm on my 81st TR and recommended I find another game like WoW and leave DDO to the professionals.

Like dang the attitudes in this game have gone way past elitist.

So you have many many levels of TR and several lines of ship buffs one would wonder how these types of characters can find any challenge at all!

just my 2 cents from a returning somewhat casual player trying to figure out of DDO should get my Sub again.

Sorry you went through that. We're not all like that.

[Azarddoze]

I don't have much ground to stand on since I haven't played the game for awhile but I did love this game a lot, I think my highest level is a 19 cleric which I had since the day the game launched in Jan 2006 he's a standard 28 point build and I enjoyed playing him but I wasn't allowed to run in groups with him anymore because he wasn't a 32 point build and thus everyone felt I was to weak.

So I made a Wizard got to level 17 but by then I started loosing interest as the game moved to F2P and suddenly grouping didn't matter anymore and the superman builds became more an more popular, if you couldn't solo it you weren't good enough.

The whole point of why I loved this game was for the grouping and questing using unique talents to defeat and plunder the dungeons and everyone had an important role somewhere along the line Turbine lost this and catered to the wrong crowd.

I recently started playing again so I created a new level 1 Dwarf Barbarian to help myself relearn the ropes by the time I got to Water Works still one of my favorites aside from the Steam Tunnels a Paladin asked me to join him while working in elite level the Paladin kept commenting that they really need to come out more difficulty's or increase the difficulty's that are in place. I asked him really I find these guys rather tough as I keep getting killed and he kept refusing to take me to a shrine so I would have to release and take a penalty. He assumed I was a terrible player who must only be on my 10th TR an I mention I have no TR levels I'm a new person. He was like what you people still exist I'm on my 81st TR and recommended I find another game like WoW and leave DDO to the professionals.

Like dang the attitudes in this game have gone way past elitist.

So you have many many levels of TR and several lines of ship buffs one would wonder how these types of characters can find any challenge at all!

just my 2 cents from a returning somewhat casual player trying to figure out of DDO should get my Sub again.

The good players that aren't jerks are very well able to understand what is going on. If you're struggling, if you need help, even if you seem in a bad mood... they're just normal humans that are skilled at video games. Though they are also able to recognize someone who is not "at the right place" in game. Sometimes they don't mind carrying, random deaths and rezzing every minutes but they also realize that it's their time (and progression rate) they may be handing to a perfect stranger who is looking to jump through steps. And that, like in any single part of life, can be frustrating.

Now add that they can have good days and bad days. Great pugging and bad pugging experiences lately. You maybe have said/did stuff that irritated them, etc. There are many factors which lead to bad pugging experience but they mostly always begin with (unless it's a jerk situation) 2 players not sharing the same motivations, speed, skills, etc.

And this happen more often when the difficulties are not doing their job of separating the player base by skills, motivations and progression.

[Monkey-Boy]

You are very wrong. Very few casual players ever post on these forums.

You could fool my by most of the replies in this thread.

[FranOhmsford]

I recently started playing again so I created a new level 1 Dwarf Barbarian to help myself relearn the ropes by the time I got to Water Works still one of my favorites aside from the Steam Tunnels a Paladin asked me to join him while working in elite level the Paladin kept commenting that they really need to come out more difficulty's or increase the difficulty's that are in place. I asked him really I find these guys rather tough as I keep getting killed and he kept refusing to take me to a shrine so I would have to release and take a penalty. He assumed I was a terrible player who must only be on my 10th TR an I mention I have no TR levels I'm a new person. He was like what you people still exist I'm on my 81st TR and recommended I find another game like WoW and leave DDO to the professionals.

Like dang the attitudes in this game have gone way past elitist.

So you have many many levels of TR and several lines of ship buffs one would wonder how these types of characters can find any challenge at all!

just my 2 cents from a returning somewhat casual player trying to figure out of DDO should get my Sub again.

This is beyond ridiculous and hopefully a one off!

If he typed that in Party Chat I for one would have reported it as I'm pretty certain Turbine would take a dim view of so called "professionals" telling newbies to go play another game!

P.S. With 13 standard Classes and 4 Iconics anymore than 51 TRs is Overkill {not counting E-TRs} so chances are that player was massively exaggerating his TR count anyway!

[FranOhmsford]

The good players that aren't jerks are very well able to understand what is going on. If you're struggling, if you need help, even if you seem in a bad mood... they're just normal humans that are skilled at video games. Though they are also able to recognize someone who is not "at the right place" in game. Sometimes they don't mind carrying, random deaths and rezzing every minutes but they also realize that it's their time (and progression rate) they may be handing to a perfect stranger who is looking to jump through steps. And that, like in any single part of life, can be frustrating.

Now add that they can have good days and bad days. Great pugging and bad pugging experiences lately. You maybe have said/did stuff that irritated them, etc. There are many factors which lead to bad pugging experience but they mostly always begin with (unless it's a jerk situation) 2 players not sharing the same motivations, speed, skills, etc.

And this happen more often when the difficulties are not doing their job of separating the player base by skills, motivations and progression.

So... In a game that's hemorrhaging both Casuals and Elitists alike you want to further separate the remaining players into categories defined by difficulty apart from simply Lvl Range?

IF DDO had the population today it did in 2010 it couldn't survive that sort of segregation!

And the Onus is NOT on the Newbie {who won't know any better!} to avoid running with Vets!
The Onus is on the Vet {If he/she's going to Pug!} to play nice so that one day that Newbie may be a Vet too!

Read Jeralrik's Post:
The Paladin supposed Vet ASKED a Low Level Dwarf Barbarian to join HIM!
This is NOT a case of Jeralrik joining an Elite BB Zerg BYOH LFM and NOT abiding by the Rules set out!

[Monkey-Boy]

S
The Onus is on the Vet {If he/she's going to Pug!} to play nice so that one day that Newbie may be a Vet too!



One thing I've learned from reading this thread is there isn't any point in that, for some people no matter how much time they spend in DDO they'll never be a vet.

[Azarddoze]

So... In a game that's hemorrhaging both Casuals and Elitists alike you want to further separate the remaining players into categories defined by difficulty apart from simply Lvl Range?

IF DDO had the population today it did in 2010 it couldn't survive that sort of segregation!

And the Onus is NOT on the Newbie {who won't know any better!} to avoid running with Vets!
The Onus is on the Vet {If he/she's going to Pug!} to play nice so that one day that Newbie may be a Vet too!

Read Jeralrik's Post:
The Paladin supposed Vet ASKED a Low Level Dwarf Barbarian to join HIM!
This is NOT a case of Jeralrik joining an Elite BB Zerg BYOH LFM and NOT abiding by the Rules set out!

It's on everyone to be respectful to fellow gamers. That can mean as much as NOT stepping in quests that you cannot handle with the thought that you will get carried. Asked or not, we know what we are worth and if we can succeed as players.

When did I sign a contract that I had to help newbies? Perhaps I play top difficulty in order to avoid them? Maybe that playing with like minded players is as fun for a power gamer that it is for casuals? No?

I simply described the most probable cause of the problem and that it is further enhanced when too many kind of players end up in the same difficulty.

Good things there just aren't that many LFMs anymore because you would see these kind of complaints every day.

[Azarddoze]

One thing I've learned from reading this thread is there isn't any point in that, for some people no matter how much time they spend in DDO they'll never be a vet.

That is true as well. It's okay to spend time helping in game but sometimes past experiences make you wanna give up on that.

[Hafeal]

You could fool my by most of the replies in this thread.

Oh, Monkey, play nice. We'll get you a banana.

Understanding and supporting casual players and new players does not mean posters are necessarily those type of players. If you care about the longevity of the game and it continuing to being around, take the attitude like the one below and keep it to yourself or your cadre of freinds. You can also go vent on the Forums Which Shall Not Be Named if you want to flaunt your vet uberness.


One thing I've learned from reading this thread is there isn't any point in that, for some people no matter how much time they spend in DDO they'll never be a vet.

[DarthCaedus]

One thing I've learned from reading this thread is there isn't any point in that, for some people no matter how much time they spend in DDO they'll never be a vet.

And for others no matter how much time they spend on the planet they will never act like a normal person.

[DarthCaedus]

The only time that is true in game is when a good player ends up playing with a not so good player on a high difficulty setting. Bad experiences mostly come from people not being "ready enought" and from the occasional jerks (internet reality) which are not pro players all the time.

If there would be distinct difficulties to separate them, you wouldn't even hear from the best players if you are not playing on the same difficulty setting.

The nerfs (through power creep) are the transparent changes we can easily see. That tells who impact the game most.

From what I've seen it's mostly abusive behavior from people and completely unnecessary.

It's more occasional now simply because the player pop is down and most casual players are gone. It wasn't occasional when DDO had a large casual player base.

[Annex]

Like dang the attitudes in this game have gone way past elitist.

After a few experiences like the one you describe, I stopped grouping except with close friends.

A vast gulf exists between...

First Life Character + Suboptimal Build + Average Equipment + No Guild Buffs + No Past Life Feats + No Tomes + No Knowledge of Dungeon

and...

Many Life Character + Optimized Build + Excellent Equipment + Guild Buffs + Past Life Feats + Tomes + Dungeon Memorized

Of course the latter character completely outruns and outguns the former. The vast majority of the power in this game comes from resources, not skill. Put a powerful character in the hands of a new player and her success will skyrocket.*

When power players write, "the game is too easy", what they really mean is that they collected the necessary resources and knowledge to beat the game, and now they want more game. Though they convey their point poorly, often using inflammatory rhetoric, I cannot begrudge them their underlying wish. However, they would do well to remember that the game offers players with fewer resources, or choosing to play a character for personal appeal rather than optimized construction, a great deal of challenge.



* I find that in this game, success of failure in a given dungeon happens before setting foot in the place and requires quite a bit of planning. Does your character have the correct defenses to mitigate enemy attacks? Does your character have the correct weapons to bypass enemy defenses? Does your healing output exceed enemy damage output? Can you disarm or bypass all traps? If you answered yes to all these questions, you win. If you answered no to any of these questions, you are in trouble.

[Azarddoze]

From what I've seen it's mostly abusive behavior from people and completely unnecessary.

It's more occasional now simply because the player pop is down and most casual players are gone. It wasn't occasional when DDO had a large casual player base.

Thanks for pointing the obvious that a ratio will materialize in more occurences when more people are involved. But why was that?

1. More people trying to get carried
2. More jerks

I was leading elite pugs all the time. I know how it is to never have people consider what you wrote in the LFM description but i am not one to ridiculize or kick people out of my groups. I am very forgiving and will rather drop group after the run and solo then explode. Even then, my limits have been reached a couple time and I gave up on pugging for up to months.

Reality is there were much more pikers and leechers than you could even imagine. THIS behavior has repercussions as well over time. It leads to abusive behaviors for a reason sometimes.

No respect from one side = no respect from the other side

Add to that the fact that a newbie brings nothing to a vet concretely. But they sometimes suck up just more energy than one was willing to drop in that situation.

[Powskier]

You could fool my by most of the replies in this thread.

i actually see a few more casual players lately..they are not really into the elite lfm's ..so alot of players wont notice.1/2 my recruits are casual ,though groups have made them leery of joining others....so they solo pretty much.

[kismetbuy]

Instead of making the existing quest harder the Devs can keep busy by creating new quest that require a full party and have to have a healer so they'll feel useful again a long with a DD for traps. Make it to where the group has to actually use their brains(i know that's insane) to have a game plan. Make the mobs and boss unable to be one shot ya know like the group actually has to put in an effort.

Call them Group Quest. Imagine that.

[Angelic-council]

There is no problem with the ship buffs, at all. I don't think going into the details even necessary. We have a guild, good high level guild, everyone worked hard to get lv100, therefore we should be rewarded (that's not the main reason however).

I'm like every other people here love playing DDO. I love good game with interesting mechanism, art, storyline etc.. from my point of view, this game is lacking in all of that... It's not how it's suppose to be. I can't tell you since when. But, I perticulally don't like how turbine separates casual and hardcore players, how they welcome new players too. I like the game where it's "Hmm.. I want that gear.. I need to work hard for it!" and not "Ok, I need 2 - 3 extra DC, gonna go visit DDOstore" or even "nah.. It's too hard for me, gonna run epic norm/casual for named items in necro".

Now, a lot of people say this game is easy, so turbine should release another difficulty? buff mobs? Btw, developers already concerned about this, you can find a post where dev saying: we are looking into this, maybe we will introduce mobs buff. But how.. this is the issue here, just giving 10 extra saves doesn't solve this.. because everyone can get good gear with little afford, what if even those good players can't kill a thing: with FoD for example, just because of that high difficulty. I strongly believe we need to adjust this part: Only skilled, good geared players survive and noobs have to work very hard to reach our spot (but not impossible) a lot of thinking here.

[Angelic-council]

Instead of making the existing quest harder the Devs can keep busy by creating new quest that require a full party and have to have a healer so they'll feel useful again a long with a DD for traps. Make it to where the group has to actually use their brains(i know that's insane) to have a game plan. Make the mobs and boss unable to be one shot ya know like the group actually has to put in an effort.

Call them Group Quest. Imagine that.

Here we go, a lot of thinking folks..

[Oliphant]

I don't have much ground to stand on since I haven't played the game for awhile but I did love this game a lot, I think my highest level is a 19 cleric which I had since the day the game launched in Jan 2006 he's a standard 28 point build and I enjoyed playing him but I wasn't allowed to run in groups with him anymore because he wasn't a 32 point build and thus everyone felt I was to weak.

So I made a Wizard got to level 17 but by then I started loosing interest as the game moved to F2P and suddenly grouping didn't matter anymore and the superman builds became more an more popular, if you couldn't solo it you weren't good enough.

The whole point of why I loved this game was for the grouping and questing using unique talents to defeat and plunder the dungeons and everyone had an important role somewhere along the line Turbine lost this and catered to the wrong crowd.

I recently started playing again so I created a new level 1 Dwarf Barbarian to help myself relearn the ropes by the time I got to Water Works still one of my favorites aside from the Steam Tunnels a Paladin asked me to join him while working in elite level the Paladin kept commenting that they really need to come out more difficulty's or increase the difficulty's that are in place. I asked him really I find these guys rather tough as I keep getting killed and he kept refusing to take me to a shrine so I would have to release and take a penalty. He assumed I was a terrible player who must only be on my 10th TR an I mention I have no TR levels I'm a new person. He was like what you people still exist I'm on my 81st TR and recommended I find another game like WoW and leave DDO to the professionals.

Like dang the attitudes in this game have gone way past elitist.

So you have many many levels of TR and several lines of ship buffs one would wonder how these types of characters can find any challenge at all!

just my 2 cents from a returning somewhat casual player trying to figure out of DDO should get my Sub again.

Only d-bags play video games professionally, that's a fact; excepting of course those players that actually do get paid for playing (the real pros), that's pretty cool.

Personally, I find pugging on Ghallanda very pleasant. All kinds of different folks of course. A couple times a week I see some communication that is a little rude or critical but not often. Rarely I see crude or off color remarks. Some times the negative communication comes from the elitists but other times its new players venting how everyone sucks for running quests fast and not catering to their flower sniffing, when earlier they could have just stated they're new and ask folks to slow down but they didn't. Water works is probably ground zero for folks thinking you're new if you don't fly through because it so old and everyone assumes everyone knows it well. Silly to assume everyone is a vet to some particular video game but its understandable that people get into that habit, because honestly, I get the impression that a very small percentage of PUGGERS are new. Most players just slide right into the party and everyone's playing their role without a lot of communication. I put that in the it-is-what-it-is bucket: this is an old game and folks know the routine without having to chat about it.

To be honest, most of the negative talk I've seen comes from a certain kind of hybrid: players that used to play but then quit years ago and recently came back. They often exhibit all the worst traits of all the various types of players. They're basically new again and deal with new player issues and they're old school vets with strong opinions on how the game is supposed to be played, you know, like how they did it back in the good old days. So they'll tell you you're a jerk for going fast and not waiting. Then they'll scold you (kids these days) for deviating from previous best practices. I've had this happen on several occasions where a new/old player throws the book at the party in full vent mode along these lines. Sometimes they're even harder on themselves and apologize for the outburst. Everyone's like it's ok and they're like... no... it's not ok!

Feel free to disregard everything I just said; it's just a bunch of generalizations...

[Blackheartox]

This is what I remember also. If you weren't self sufficient you would be left where you died and have to release after the quest was finished.

Every third thread consisted of someone saying something in those words:
I got rejected from a group that said trs only by not being tr, i got kicked out of a group by dying in quest.
The one that kicked wasnt the one writing those threads.

You had distinct rules, farm normal x7 hard elite, dont die carry your own weight.
Then some random mister jack joins that, dies at first trap, pikes out the quest and watched how mr drownuker soloes it while being a permament invetory slot /in this game that lacks invetory space/ and then after he gets carried he would come to forums and complain that after release he got kicked or that the moment he died drownuker recalled and formed a new group without him and rejected him from then on.


IF you cannot follow the rules demanded from you and then blame the players who play with said rules for your inability to follow those rules, and then ask for game balance changes you are not helping this game.

I mean is so hard for people to accept that they arent fullfiling someones ruleset to run with them.

I saw lfms with friendly people only, did i join those? No since i dont fulfill recently that rule, i saw lfms drunken shroud, did i join those lfms? Only if i was drunk.
Simple thing like putting ruled and not following them are the reason why people demanded change to the game.
I dont know if its casuals or peole unable to process what a rule means.
You find the word for those sort of players, i picked casual.

I myself was rejected for being bad, never made forum posts but instead i worked on my character, i was more then helpfull in my ddo career towards new players.
But recently i dont want anymore, its gotten to that point that completionists with cheats have gotten so full of themselfs, new players have gotten so spoiled that there is nothing left for a classic fan and admirer of dnd lore in this game.
With each step they are destroying ddo more and more.
ANd its devs fault for listening to people who cant adapt to the game but want the game to adapt to their needs.
DDO SHOULD HAD NEVER BEEN A GAME WHERE EVERY BUILD IS SELFSUFFICIENT, IT SHOULD NEVER BE ORIENTED TOWARD CASUALS ONLY, IT SHOULD BE A GAME WHERE CASUALS CAN SEE DIFFERENCE IN SKILL BETWEEN THEM AND VETERANDS AND WORK ON THEMSELFS TO IMPROVE THOSE SKILLS.
A GAME THAT DOESNT HAVE SOLO MENTALITY, BUT MMO AKA GROUPING AND ROLES, NOT ALL ROLES THROWN INTO 1 SINGLE BUILD.
Thats what i blame casuals for.
Only the best of the best, a select few should be able to solo hardest content on hardest difficulty in this game.
Everyone else, me including should spend time to research quest, group with people and fail while trying hard to complete the said quest.
That is whad dnd is, step into dungeon and never know when the dm will mess you up with a random trap that can kill the whole party or a random ambush or whatever.

[blerkington]

Instead of making the existing quest harder the Devs can keep busy by creating new quest that require a full party and have to have a healer so they'll feel useful again a long with a DD for traps. Make it to where the group has to actually use their brains(i know that's insane) to have a game plan. Make the mobs and boss unable to be one shot ya know like the group actually has to put in an effort.

Call them Group Quest. Imagine that.

Hi,

This seems like an innocuous enough request, but the real issue is with how it would be implemented.

Most quests that require more than one person are that way because of some awkwardness with the map, requiring you to be in two different places at once, or killing two different enemies at once. Hirelings or a group of as few as two people can usually take care of this.

If the group needs a healer, it's usually because they are taking very high amounts of damage over a long period, so that their self-healing either isn't keeping up or is being exhausted. The alternative is making us unable to heal ourselves, with things like the Titan's aura in Master Artificer.

If the group needs a disabler, it's because the traps are so dangerous that it's not safe to jump over or run through them, and no other option is provided for going around.

Most bosses and mobs in EE already can't be one-shot, at least not reliably. What you seem to be advocating there is just adding more HP or possibly reducing our DPS.

The thing is, we already have all of these 'solutions' in harder content.

I think the solution to adding more difficulty in an interesting way consists in good map/encounter design and AI improvements. There are some people on the forums who have made some really good suggestions about this already, and it would be nice to see their ideas implemented.

However, I'm not an advocate of forced grouping. The people who are need to remember that Turbine also has customers who want to be able to play the game without being made to group sometimes or all the time, and that those people spend money too.

Thanks.

Edit: As to the OP, ship buffs make a pretty small difference to character power after the early levels. I think asking people not to use features of the game and the power their character has gained through past lives and gear is quite silly. The top tier difficulty of the game should be balanced around strong, well-geared characters, and the other levels of difficulty need to be better spread out to cover everything below that.

[Powskier]

so i made a toon on cannith and joined a ubber ship havin guild..THIRTY TWO BUFFS not including the city regen icon or my potion xp icon either.

[DarthCaedus]

Thanks for pointing the obvious that a ratio will materialize in more occurences when more people are involved. But why was that?

1. More people trying to get carried
2. More jerks

I was leading elite pugs all the time. I know how it is to never have people consider what you wrote in the LFM description but i am not one to ridiculize or kick people out of my groups. I am very forgiving and will rather drop group after the run and solo then explode. Even then, my limits have been reached a couple time and I gave up on pugging for up to months.

Reality is there were much more pikers and leechers than you could even imagine. THIS behavior has repercussions as well over time. It leads to abusive behaviors for a reason sometimes.

No respect from one side = no respect from the other side

Add to that the fact that a newbie brings nothing to a vet concretely. But they sometimes suck up just more energy than one was willing to drop in that situation.

joining a pug is not disrespectful. There is never a reason to be abusive period. Only the worst of the worst don't understand that.

[DarthCaedus]

Every third thread consisted of someone saying something in those words:
I got rejected from a group that said trs only by not being tr, i got kicked out of a group by dying in quest.
The one that kicked wasnt the one writing those threads.

You had distinct rules, farm normal x7 hard elite, dont die carry your own weight.
Then some random mister jack joins that, dies at first trap, pikes out the quest and watched how mr drownuker soloes it while being a permament invetory slot /in this game that lacks invetory space/ and then after he gets carried he would come to forums and complain that after release he got kicked or that the moment he died drownuker recalled and formed a new group without him and rejected him from then on.


IF you cannot follow the rules demanded from you and then blame the players who play with said rules for your inability to follow those rules, and then ask for game balance changes you are not helping this game.

I mean is so hard for people to accept that they arent fullfiling someones ruleset to run with them.

I saw lfms with friendly people only, did i join those? No since i dont fulfill recently that rule, i saw lfms drunken shroud, did i join those lfms? Only if i was drunk.
Simple thing like putting ruled and not following them are the reason why people demanded change to the game.
I dont know if its casuals or peole unable to process what a rule means.
You find the word for those sort of players, i picked casual.

I myself was rejected for being bad, never made forum posts but instead i worked on my character, i was more then helpfull in my ddo career towards new players.
But recently i dont want anymore, its gotten to that point that completionists with cheats have gotten so full of themselfs, new players have gotten so spoiled that there is nothing left for a classic fan and admirer of dnd lore in this game.
With each step they are destroying ddo more and more.
ANd its devs fault for listening to people who cant adapt to the game but want the game to adapt to their needs.
DDO SHOULD HAD NEVER BEEN A GAME WHERE EVERY BUILD IS SELFSUFFICIENT, IT SHOULD NEVER BE ORIENTED TOWARD CASUALS ONLY, IT SHOULD BE A GAME WHERE CASUALS CAN SEE DIFFERENCE IN SKILL BETWEEN THEM AND VETERANDS AND WORK ON THEMSELFS TO IMPROVE THOSE SKILLS.
A GAME THAT DOESNT HAVE SOLO MENTALITY, BUT MMO AKA GROUPING AND ROLES, NOT ALL ROLES THROWN INTO 1 SINGLE BUILD.
Thats what i blame casuals for.
Only the best of the best, a select few should be able to solo hardest content on hardest difficulty in this game.
Everyone else, me including should spend time to research quest, group with people and fail while trying hard to complete the said quest.
That is whad dnd is, step into dungeon and never know when the dm will mess you up with a random trap that can kill the whole party or a random ambush or whatever.

What rules are you referring to. If someone joins a quest with people that have high saves and evasion and then dies in a trap there was no rule broken.

The bottom line is that often when a new player joined a pug they were expected to run solo with no help from party members. Self sufficiency became expected within pugs. No casuals demanded anything.

There are very few casual players left in this game so it's a pointless argument.

One thing is clear, based on your rants your skill level is much less than you think it is.

[Blackheartox]

What rules are you referring to. If someone joins a quest with people that have high saves and evasion and then dies in a trap there was no rule broken.

The bottom line is that often when a new player joined a pug they were expected to run solo with no help from party members. Self sufficiency became expected within pugs. No casuals demanded anything.

There are very few casual players left in this game so it's a pointless argument.

One thing is clear, based on your rants your skill level is much less than you think it is.

I will always say my skill level is low, my build skill levels are good but play skill arent good enough since i post to much on forums trying to make ddo a proper game.
And selfsufficiency was written in lfm tab, it was clearly written what was demanded from someone who wants to join.
Unable to follow what is demanded is a much deeper issue then being veteran or pro.

If i want to write no voice in my lfm, if i want to write voice only, if i want to write casters only, if i want to write barbarians only, it is my rule that i set for the group that i made.
Not everyone should fulfill that rule.
Why should a barbarian feel angry for being rejected from a caster only shroud?
It was stated in rules, he didint follow them.
Why does he roleplay his class to the maximum?

[Oliphant]

Every third thread consisted of someone saying something in those words:
I got rejected from a group that said trs only by not being tr, i got kicked out of a group by dying in quest.
.
.
.
Everyone else, me including should spend time to research quest, group with people and fail while trying hard to complete the said quest.
That is whad dnd is, step into dungeon and never know when the dm will mess you up with a random trap that can kill the whole party or a random ambush or whatever.

I get that the middle part I glossed over involves an LFM with clear communication about expectations and a lack of respect for those expectations by some that join and that's a fair argument, but I think that those expectations of never being challenged nor dying and being upset with folks for dying (ever, at all) have played a far bigger role in why the players are getting buffs and the environment is getting the velvet hammer of proxy nerfing. It's the intolerance of challenge or weakness that makes struggle or failure in this game so miserable. It's a completely subjective experience based on the general culture of the game. If struggling wasn't so socially awkward in this game, the devs could really challenge the players. In that social environment a really hard quest is no big deal. You just try, try again. But in DDO, it's like OMG! we just lost a quest! and everyone immediately leaves in disgust.

[Powskier]

Instead of making the existing quest harder the Devs can keep busy by creating new quest that require a full party and have to have a healer so they'll feel useful again a long with a DD for traps. Make it to where the group has to actually use their brains(i know that's insane) to have a game plan. Make the mobs and boss unable to be one shot ya know like the group actually has to put in an effort.

Call them Group Quest. Imagine that.

one thing missing that could really make groups is darkness. D&D dungeons should require Light to proceed thru such darkness. Lets forget infravision/ultravision to keep it simple. Caster with Continual Light spell is super necessary in the book-dice game.Imagine every underground as dark as a starless night;&,this could keep groups from splittin up too! also,there are many enemies who should suffer minus' in the light radius...its pretty lame from an old DM perspective that we cant cast light and blind drow, and stuff like that..hell ,in ddo the drow cast fire spells givin off intense light they hate....nice one,well though out.

[Azarddoze]

joining a pug is not disrespectful. There is never a reason to be abusive period. Only the worst of the worst don't understand that.

Joining a pug knowing beforehand that you cannot contribute or are going to pike over 50% of time is disrespectful. The "abusive" behaviors as you call them must not come by the thousands. They are most likely exceptions to the rule and they still come in majority only from the 2 reasons i've stated before. Leeching and jerks.

If you have never been on the other end of the spectrum, I guess you just cannot understand.

Don't forget that when pugging, you are playing with strangers who owe you nothing but have expectations (and time constraint) as humans. Even more so if the LFM was stating a style that wasn't met by the joiner. Problems appear when 2 styles that don't get along end up playing together.

[DarthCaedus]

Joining a pug knowing beforehand that you cannot contribute or are going to pike over 50% of time is disrespectful. The "abusive" behaviors as you call them must not come by the thousands. They are most likely exceptions to the rule and they still come in majority only from the 2 reasons i've stated before. Leeching and jerks.

If you have never been on the other end of the spectrum, I guess you just cannot understand.

Don't forget that when pugging, you are playing with strangers who owe you nothing but have expectations (and time constraint) as humans. Even more so if the LFM was stating a style that wasn't met by the joiner.

The abusive behavior was rampant when we had a large casual base. You are creating situations that were largely non-existant when I saw abuse. Pugs would die and be left behind. People contributed to the best of their ability and were still treated poorly.

You are acting very much like the typical person that used to drive people away.

[Azarddoze]

The abusive behavior was rampant when we had a large casual base. You are creating situations that were largely non-existant when I saw abuse. Pugs would die and be left behind. People contributed to the best of their ability and were still treated poorly.

You are acting very much like the typical person that used to drive people away.

Contributing to the best of their ability has nothing to do with the outcome. Strangers don't take time to know the reasons why someone is bad but they do see the result of loss exp and being stuck 15 extra minutes in a quest, waiting, when the LFM stated "Elite Vets only" for exemple. That's the situation i'm describing and it was pretty much prevalent throughout DDO's history.

You are blind to this issue because it has never happened to you over and over and over................ again.

[Blackheartox]

The abusive behavior was rampant when we had a large casual base. You are creating situations that were largely non-existant when I saw abuse. Pugs would die and be left behind. People contributed to the best of their ability and were still treated poorly.

You are acting very much like the typical person that used to drive people away.

Incorrect, people who were tring back then when it was a job for the most dedicate ones were clearly writing in lfm, tr only, dont die, farm xxx quest xxx times.
Those who didnt have the ability to read and comprehend what that meant were the ones drivine the players away from the game.
Those tr players had no issue whatosver to leave the said lfm intact with only a friend or 2 in group while questing for 3-4 hours /how much their reallife allowed to them.

I should not change my habbits depending on what a total stranger wants from me.
I can adapt to a strangers rules if i join his group.
Its called adapting and ability to process what the word rule means.

I have rarely to never back in the days seen a lfm where someone would be left as soulstone if that lfm did not consist the words byoh, tr only or zerg

[DarthCaedus]

Contributing to the best of their ability has nothing to do with the outcome. Strangers don't take time to know the reasons why someone is bad but they do see the result of loss exp and being stuck 15 extra minutes in a quest, waiting, when the LFM stated "Elite Vets only" for exemple. That's the situation i'm describing and it was pretty much prevalent throughout DDO's history.

You are blind to this issue because it has never happened to you over and over and over................ again.

If it happened over and over you did something wrong. It's as simple as that.

[jalont]

Joining a pug knowing beforehand that you cannot contribute or are going to pike over 50% of time is disrespectful. The "abusive" behaviors as you call them must not come by the thousands. They are most likely exceptions to the rule and they still come in majority only from the 2 reasons i've stated before. Leeching and jerks.

If you have never been on the other end of the spectrum, I guess you just cannot understand.

Don't forget that when pugging, you are playing with strangers who owe you nothing but have expectations (and time constraint) as humans. Even more so if the LFM was stating a style that wasn't met by the joiner. Problems appear when 2 styles that don't get along end up playing together.

Pugs are for newbs and have always been for newbs. If vets insist on pugging, they should play down to the others. Vets have a myriad of other options that newbs don't. They can go use those options instead. It's as simple as that.

[DarthCaedus]

Incorrect, people who were tring back then when it was a job for the most dedicate ones were clearly writing in lfm, tr only, dont die, farm xxx quest xxx times.
Those who didnt have the ability to read and comprehend what that meant were the ones drivine the players away from the game.
Those tr players had no issue whatosver to leave the said lfm intact with only a friend or 2 in group while questing for 3-4 hours /how much their reallife allowed to them.

I should not change my habbits depending on what a total stranger wants from me.
I can adapt to a strangers rules if i join his group.
Its called adapting and ability to process what the word rule means.

I have rarely to never back in the days seen a lfm where someone would be left as soulstone if that lfm did not consist the words byoh, tr only or zerg

And now we are getting to the real reason the game player diminished. Not your fantasy theory about the devs catering to casuals.

[Azarddoze]

If it happened over and over you did something wrong. It's as simple as that.

I know right. I kept posting elite LFMs thinking that people would respect what was written on 'em. What was I thinking?

[Blackheartox]

And now we are getting to the real reason the game player diminished. Not your fantasy theory about the devs catering to casuals.
I intended to use word casual since i dont know proper term or word for people unable to read and follow what is asked from them.
You make the word up, im at my wits end

[Azarddoze]

Pugs are for newbs and have always been for newbs. If vets insist on pugging, they should play down to the others. Vets have a myriad of other options that newbs don't. They can go use those options instead. It's as simple as that.

What does this have to do with reading and respecting what is on the LFM?

If I wanna open an elite LFM, i'm gonna open an elite LFM. I don't need reasons or other options when that's what I wanna do.

[Qhualor]

Pugs are for newbs and have always been for newbs. If vets insist on pugging, they should play down to the others. Vets have a myriad of other options that newbs don't. They can go use those options instead. It's as simple as that.

pugs are not for newbs and haven't always been for newbs. there are multiple reasons why people pug and none of it has to mean playing down to others. one option that vets have, which is the same option as everyone else, is pug.

[DarthCaedus]

What does this have to do with reading and respecting what is on the LFM?

If I wanna open an elite LFM, i'm gonna open an elite LFM. I don't need reasons or other options when that's what I wanna do.

You have frequent problems very few others have any problems. Something is wrong on your end.

[Singular]

Do I really have to answer this?

OK...

I DON'T RUN EEs does not mean I don't want to run EEs!

It means I know perfectly well that EEs as are currently scaled are not worth my time!

I've ran the ones at Lvl 21-24 except for CitW, FoT and the 3BC End Quest that provide favour on the character I'm trying to hit 5,000 on - Also grabbed the Saga Rewards while I was at it!

BUT

Until I need that Favour again there is absolutely NO reason for me to step into an EE!

That is WRONG!

They're a nice challenge Fran. It feels quite nice soloing them, especially if you almost die but pull through several times. If you simply walk all over an EE quest, it's quite uninspiring.

[Singular]

Having an endgame that allows any class to solo EE is what is and has been driving away all the players. Old friends logged on when Epic Orchard was released, were not challenged, got their loot in a day, and then they may log back on in a few months when there is a challenge.

I will miss Mabar, but it was too laggy and players do not want to come back to the game just to waste time in the instance to wipe when the lag monster takes over.

If you want players to come back then you either need a real end game with raids or you give them a challenge worth doing. There is no need for them to come back to a game and earn epic completionist and have a million past lives if they can solo the hardest content with very little invested in a toon. (My first life bard is soling everything, who would have thought?)

Totally. The minimum time to complete an EE quest should not be how fast your character can run from one end to the other, dropping the annoying mobs casually on the way.

[DarthCaedus]

Totally. The minimum time to complete an EE quest should not be how fast your character can run from one end to the other, dropping the annoying mobs casually on the way.

Why then do people say it's not worth running ee for loot so they just farm on EN despite the better EE drop rate.

[Jeralrik]

From reading some of these posts yes as a Casual gamer I can Read, To me what a casual gamer is someone who has little time to game because Real Life takes precedent and we come to play games such as DDO to unwind and leave our Real Life behind for a spell. An there are people in both crowds who make each look bad.

But to me Pugging is available because 1) I don't belong to a Guild an thus Pugging comes into play. 2) I pug because I seek like minded adventures who wish to complete adventures as a group.

I read the LFM posts if I see the BYOH or Know The Quest I tend to steer clear of them, but how as a new or returning player with all these changes that have taken place in game will I learn said Quests if no one will group with me, If I wanted a Solo game I would just load up Baldur's Gate or NeverWinter, No I came to DDO because this is what Dungeons & Dragons was for me but in the Pen & Paper version we had penalty's for taking so many multi-class levels and Solo play was discouraged.

If in the table version of D&D when a party member got fed up with the rest of the party planning and decided to wander off they rarely lived as the DM would punish the player with the most harshest of deaths, this game has gotten soft & lazy they cater to the Solo player you get hireling's, the DDO Store takes all the fun out of acquiring good loot at low levels because you can buy it, The Store should not sell armor or weapons unless it's for Cosmetic look only take those stats off we need to work for it to feel a sense of accomplishment.
Take away Hireling those really ruined this game and really cater to the Solo player.

What this game needs is another area added to it that follows the D&D rules set where grouping is the main basis and more torwards level 3 - 15 introduce a penalty for taking more than 2 classes in a Multi-classed character like in the books, This game needs a refresh and badly, Introduce a scale where the more people in your party the higher the challenge for those seeking it. An No hireling Vendors in said new area.

[dontmater]

Show me on the doll where the bad power gamer touched you.

that was the best thing ive seen in awhile.. you sir win

[bls904c2]

if you want to have a challange lets ask really do it for challenge a level that is higher then elite but offers nothing but vendor trash and a trophy saying i beat "quest name" because all items really ever do is power creep
has no Bravery bonus just good xp because you're demi-gods its not bravery its boredom
no dungeon scaling because it just makes it easier to solo and you want a challenge
make traps really hurt 100,000 damage so simple evasion won't cut it you need a trapper or improved evasion
every enemy has 100% fort bosses have 200% you don't need crits do you, you're demi gods
party wipes will be common place like the old days

[Oliphant]

Guild buffs hold guilds together. Makes sense to have a really difficult setting available in a progress quest type game with a massive spread among builds (toon and gear). But let's assume folks are acting in bad faith rather than discuss the merits of their ideas.

[Neomarica]

Do I really have to answer this?

OK...

I DON'T RUN EEs does not mean I don't want to run EEs!

It means I know perfectly well that EEs as are currently scaled are not worth my time!

I've ran the ones at Lvl 21-24 except for CitW, FoT and the 3BC End Quest that provide favour on the character I'm trying to hit 5,000 on - Also grabbed the Saga Rewards while I was at it!

BUT

Until I need that Favour again there is absolutely NO reason for me to step into an EE!

That is WRONG!

You don't want challenge so the difficulty meant for people who want challenge should be made to accommodate you? That's pretty much the OPPOSITE of how things are supposed to work.

[bartharok]

You don't want challenge so the difficulty meant for people who want challenge should be made to accommodate you? That's pretty much the OPPOSITE of how things are supposed to work.

Its not supposed to work the other way around either, since the ones wanting the challenge are the ones that work hard at not making things challenging.

The old saying about bewaring what you wish for goes a long way.

[kned225]

Pugs are for newbs and have always been for newbs

Vets don't need pugs. They form pugs for the social experience, positive or negative. If you run into a rude vet, he's probably just having some fun. Call it ddo hazing

We all caught some grief when we were brand new and pugging. If you like the game, you just shrug it off

A lot of people need thicker skin

[bartharok]

Vets don't need pugs. They form pugs for the social experience, positive or negative. If you run into a rude vet, he's probably just having some fun. Call it ddo hazing

We all caught some grief when we were brand new and pugging. If you like the game, you just shrug it off

A lot of people need thicker skin

If you think being unpleasant to others is fun, good luck in life.

[kned225]

A vast gulf exists between:

First Life Character + Suboptimal Build + Average Equipment + No Guild Buffs + No Past Life Feats + No Tomes + No Knowledge of Dungeon

and...

Many Life Character + Optimized Build + Excellent Equipment + Guild Buffs + Past Life Feats + Tomes + Dungeon Memorized.


THIS is what killed pugging, well...this and bb. The larger you make this gap, the more ridiculous it is to expect these two kinds of players to group

And that gap has gotten very very big

[kned225]

If you think being unpleasant to others is fun, good luck in life.

Nah, picking on newbs isn't for me, but if you've ever played sports you know the attitude

It's just typical guy bravado. Harmless nonsense. Why must we all take ourselves so seriously?

WAHH...he said i was no good! I feel so INADEQUATE

[FranOhmsford]

If in the table version of D&D when a party member got fed up with the rest of the party planning and decided to wander off they rarely lived as the DM would punish the player with the most harshest of deaths, this game has gotten soft & lazy they cater to the Solo player you get hireling's, the DDO Store takes all the fun out of acquiring good loot at low levels because you can buy it, The Store should not sell armor or weapons unless it's for Cosmetic look only take those stats off we need to work for it to feel a sense of accomplishment.
Take away Hireling those really ruined this game and really cater to the Solo player.

What this game needs is another area added to it that follows the D&D rules set where grouping is the main basis and more torwards level 3 - 15 introduce a penalty for taking more than 2 classes in a Multi-classed character like in the books, This game needs a refresh and badly, Introduce a scale where the more people in your party the higher the challenge for those seeking it. An No hireling Vendors in said new area.

I can't believe I defended you earlier!

Hirelings are a vital part of PnP!
DDO without Hirelings would have the last semblance of D&D removed from it!

And frankly...The flak I've got for using Hirelings from Elitists over the past 4 years has shown quite blatantly that those people would carry on Soloing to their hearts content long after those of us who actually NEED hirelings have left the game!

Having Hirelings in DDO is NOT catering to the Casuals in as much as it is PROVIDING a way for "Lesser" Players of ALL Types to play the game!

The European Vet with only 30 minutes to play - Can't take the time to put up an LFM, No LFMs up in his/her level range as it's 5am on the East Coast!
The Newbie who's on Snowyside Korthos completely alone!
The so called "Casual" Player {which if you read between the lines on these forums basically means "Bad"} who rarely groups because like you he/she gets attacked for not being able to contribute!
The Average 4 man Group who can't get a Real Life Healer or Rogue {or in some quests an Arcane with viable CC} to join their Party!

All of the above and many many more would suffer if Hirelings were removed from this game!
Oh the Elitists would be happy enough - For the 3 months before DDO vanished for good!



It's the push for Self-Sufficiency WITHOUT Hirelings that has killed grouping in this game!

When FvSs refused to Heal or Res anyone!
When Druids arrived and not ONE Healer type Build was posted on these forums even though Druids are far better than FvSs at Party/Raid Healing {and not far behind Clerics!}!
When the Devs caved in to the Elitists and introduced the Divine Disciple Tree for Clerics but left ALL the Healing Power in Radiant Servant {Basically killing the Divine Disciple Stone Dead!}!
When Elitists wouldn't even join a group that was waiting on a Rogue even for quests where traps were everywhere!
When TWO levels of Rogue {sometimes just the ONE} would allow you to get EVERY TRAP IN THE GAME!
When the Devs introduced Artificers into the game and made Warforged the go to Race for said Class {WARFORGED!}!
When the Devs introduced Iconics and the Morninglord Cleric had +2 Int rather than Wisdom or Charisma!

And now they're giving ALL THREE Barb Trees 350/400? unnecessary HP and 100% Heal Amp {Proving once and for all that they've utterly given up on actually creating meaningful and Lore Based Class Trees and instead are simply giving the Elitists what they want - YET MORE SELF-SUFFICIENCY!}

I won't even bother stating why Bladeforged was simply INSANE!
Well actually No - I will!
Bladeforged were meant to be Paladins {and to help WF Fighters - Pre Bladeforged this was a Dead Build! - out a bit too} BUT their Enhancements were bound to be misused by Arcane Casters {Who frankly already had more than enough self-healing capacity as a simple Warforged!}.

[FranOhmsford]

Vets don't need pugs. They form pugs for the social experience, positive or negative. If you run into a rude vet, he's probably just having some fun. Call it ddo hazing

Isn't Hazing illegal in more than a few places?


We all caught some grief when we were brand new and pugging. If you like the game, you just shrug it off

A lot of people need thicker skin


Stating someone needs a thicker skin is just a way of blaming the VICTIM!

[Powskier]

Intermission

[Powskier]

relax,kick back...pop the corn

[MagicBlue]

From reading some of these posts yes as a Casual gamer I can Read, To me what a casual gamer is someone who has little time to game because Real Life takes precedent and we come to play games such as DDO to unwind and leave our Real Life behind for a spell. An there are people in both crowds who make each look bad.

But to me Pugging is available because 1) I don't belong to a Guild an thus Pugging comes into play. 2) I pug because I seek like minded adventures who wish to complete adventures as a group.

I read the LFM posts if I see the BYOH or Know The Quest I tend to steer clear of them, but how as a new or returning player with all these changes that have taken place in game will I learn said Quests if no one will group with me, If I wanted a Solo game I would just load up Baldur's Gate or NeverWinter, No I came to DDO because this is what Dungeons & Dragons was for me but in the Pen & Paper version we had penalty's for taking so many multi-class levels and Solo play was discouraged.

If in the table version of D&D when a party member got fed up with the rest of the party planning and decided to wander off they rarely lived as the DM would punish the player with the most harshest of deaths, this game has gotten soft & lazy they cater to the Solo player you get hireling's, the DDO Store takes all the fun out of acquiring good loot at low levels because you can buy it, The Store should not sell armor or weapons unless it's for Cosmetic look only take those stats off we need to work for it to feel a sense of accomplishment.
Take away Hireling those really ruined this game and really cater to the Solo player.

What this game needs is another area added to it that follows the D&D rules set where grouping is the main basis and more torwards level 3 - 15 introduce a penalty for taking more than 2 classes in a Multi-classed character like in the books, This game needs a refresh and badly, Introduce a scale where the more people in your party the higher the challenge for those seeking it. An No hireling Vendors in said new area.

I agree in all save about the hirelings.
They are a help also for groups, not only for soloers.

What you tell is the spirit of this game as it was years ago.
Grouping, teamplay and roles. How a role play game should be.

What killed this spirit is the profit, DDO store and the possibility to create characters that are all: DPS, Defender, Healer, Buffers. Also a Fighter can heal himself with spell like abilities. And for me this is an aberration.

Of course in this way people become selfish. Characters do not have weaknesses and they do not need no one else to cover them.

[bartharok]

Nah, picking on newbs isn't for me, but if you've ever played sports you know the attitude

It's just typical guy bravado. Harmless nonsense. Why must we all take ourselves so seriously?

WAHH...he said i was no good! I feel so INADEQUATE

Got kicked off our soccerteam for "unbecoming behaviour", after which the team started losing. The ones that tried to haze me in highschool got knocked into the nearest wall. Didnt think it was much fun, no.

[Blackheartox]

I agree in all save about the hirelings.
They are a help also for groups, not only for soloers.

What you tell is the spirit of this game as it was years ago.
Grouping, teamplay and roles. How a role play game should be.

What killed this spirit is the profit, DDO store and the possibility to create characters that are all: DPS, Defender, Healer, Buffers. Also a Fighter can heal himself with spell like abilities. And for me this is an aberration.

Of course in this way people become selfish. Characters do not have weaknesses and they do not need no one else to cover them.


Yes and thus what im always suggesting, nerf it all, nerf all selfhealing, dont buff it, destroy it, totally erase it.
Everything, from store potions scrolls to spell like abilities and spells.
Make a cleric need to go full radiant servant max spellpower and items and make his heal heal only for a percentage, not full with minimum effort.
All requires a big old nice nerf bat.
Nerf them all fast, efficient and where it hurts the most.
Everything, evey possible playstyle.

Make groups with total specialized roles put enourmous effort to finish a 6 man epic elite dungeon and make the reward so big that they will pursuit that effort and work toward that completition.
And reverse scaling, i want when im solo to have a tougher time since people are clearly against soloers, if you take our selfhealing and give us more challenge and a simple reward like +1 chest loot bonus or 1 more chance at named or 20% more xp it will be worth it.
Big effort should come with bigger reward no matter what twisted logic people want to use, that is how it should be.
Its that way in every aspect of life, it should be so in a game as well. Skill and effort in ddo should be rewarded, there should be a reason to be after a bigger skill level, everyone should feel progress in effort they put in ddo and the endend should be that you while apsoulutely challenging yourself with weeks of attempting to solo something, finally manage to do it. And you feel great about it.
As someone who is entirely devoted and loves this game i clearly want the game to be harder for soloers harder for groups and to promote group play.
Everyone wins that way.
Think about it, there are many things that can be fixed in ddo with nerfs, buffs and power creep hasnt helped a single game.
And its definitely tainting ddo.
Number of soloers will drop, roles will come back again and endgame can be properly coded.
As it is, no matter what endgame they throw at us, it wont be properly done due to mentality and state of game

[kned225]

Isn't Hazing illegal in more than a few places?




Stating someone needs a thicker skin is just a way of blaming the VICTIM!


You can't be saying that being called a noob is as bad as cleaning a toilet with your tongue?

Sometimes these "victims" aren't so innocent. I've seen plenty who have no concept of the fact that their holding other players hostage with nonsense like hotbar setup, proficiency issues etc etc etc... IN a quest!

It can be super annoying. Ive got no problem with a vet calling them out

[kned225]

Got kicked off our soccerteam for "unbecoming behaviour", after which the team started losing. The ones that tried to haze me in highschool got knocked into the nearest wall. Didnt think it was much fun, no.


See?....thicker skin would've helped the team.

Sometimes...... be it in a pug or as part of a soccer team, putting the team first is the right thing to do

[Archangel666]

Nah, picking on newbs isn't for me, but if you've ever played sports you know the attitude

It's just typical guy bravado. Harmless nonsense. Why must we all take ourselves so seriously?

WAHH...he said i was no good! I feel so INADEQUATE

This is not aimed at you specifically, but I have seen this "Jock Mentality" before in game also.

I always find it hilarious.

Didn't the "Jocks" used to pick on the "Nerds"?

Is there a more "Nerdy" past time than DnD? (Possibly, but there won't be many).

Aren't computers supposedly "Nerdy"?

So we've got "Jocks" playing a computer game loosely based on DnD, picking on others?

The worst part is that they don't even see the irony.

[bartharok]

See?....thicker skin would've helped the team.

Sometimes...... be it in a pug or as part of a soccer team, putting the team first is the right thing to do

Thicker skin wouldnt have helped. I wasnt very sportsmanlike. I played defence, and knocked down, just within the rules, anyone who got close.

And a team consists of individuals, you cant put the team first without taking into consideration who is on it.

[MagicBlue]

Yes and thus what im always suggesting, nerf it all, nerf all selfhealing, dont buff it, destroy it, totally erase it.
Everything, from store potions scrolls to spell like abilities and spells.
Make a cleric need to go full radiant servant max spellpower and items and make his heal heal only for a percentage, not full with minimum effort.
All requires a big old nice nerf bat.
Nerf them all fast, efficient and where it hurts the most.
Everything, evey possible playstyle.

Make groups with total specialized roles put enourmous effort to finish a 6 man epic elite dungeon and make the reward so big that they will pursuit that effort and work toward that completition.
And reverse scaling, i want when im solo to have a tougher time since people are clearly against soloers, if you take our selfhealing and give us more challenge and a simple reward like +1 chest loot bonus or 1 more chance at named or 20% more xp it will be worth it.
Big effort should come with bigger reward no matter what twisted logic people want to use, that is how it should be.
Its that way in every aspect of life, it should be so in a game as well. Skill and effort in ddo should be rewarded, there should be a reason to be after a bigger skill level, everyone should feel progress in effort they put in ddo and the endend should be that you while apsoulutely challenging yourself with weeks of attempting to solo something, finally manage to do it. And you feel great about it.
As someone who is entirely devoted and loves this game i clearly want the game to be harder for soloers harder for groups and to promote group play.
Everyone wins that way.
Think about it, there are many things that can be fixed in ddo with nerfs, buffs and power creep hasnt helped a single game.
And its definitely tainting ddo.
Number of soloers will drop, roles will come back again and endgame can be properly coded.
As it is, no matter what endgame they throw at us, it wont be properly done due to mentality and state of game

From 2006 to 2009 DDO was exactly this.

Now is a different DDO

I will open a LFM to develop a new one.

[Singular]

Why then do people say it's not worth running ee for loot so they just farm on EN despite the better EE drop rate.

Only people with underdeveloped characters make such claims.

[FranOhmsford]

You can't be saying that being called a noob is as bad as cleaning a toilet with your tongue?

No but Bullying is Bullying - It really doesn't matter the severity of it - If one person is picked on by another - That is Bullying!


Sometimes these "victims" aren't so innocent. I've seen plenty who have no concept of the fact that their holding other players hostage with nonsense like hotbar setup, proficiency issues etc etc etc... IN a quest!

It can be super annoying. Ive got no problem with a vet calling them out

Oh come on!

Seriously?

THIS is what you consider worth verbally or literatively attacking someone for?


They're newbies and they're asking questions - That's a GOOD Thing!

So long as they're not vital questions to the newbies well-being in said quest simply take the time to type {or if you're using Voice chat and they can hear you this is even quicker!} "Save the questions till after the quest please and I'll take the time to answer a couple".

[kned225]

This is not aimed at you specifically, but I have seen this "Jock Mentality" before in game also.

I always find it hilarious.

Didn't the "Jocks" used to pick on the "Nerds"?

Is there a more "Nerdy" past time than DnD? (Possibly, but there won't be many).

Aren't computers supposedly "Nerdy"?

So we've got "Jocks" playing a computer game loosely based on DnD, picking on others?

The worst part is that they don't even see the irony.


In the Kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is King?

[Monkey-Boy]

Oh come on!

Seriously?

THIS is what you consider worth verbally or literatively attacking someone for?

Not really, but if you summon a hireling in a EYOH EE run then you should expect it.

[kned225]

No but Bullying is Bullying - It really doesn't matter the severity of it - If one person is picked on by another - That is Bullying!



Oh come on!

Seriously?

THIS is what you consider worth verbally or literatively attacking someone for?


They're newbies and they're asking questions - That's a GOOD Thing!

So long as they're not vital questions to the newbies well-being in said quest simply take the time to type {or if you're using Voice chat and they can hear you this is even quicker!} "Save the questions till after the quest please and I'll take the time to answer a couple".


Of course severity matters. Sayreville didn't cancel games over shaving cream pies

If you're still grped with other people, between quests is not the time to answer million questions either. People with limited playing time might be WAITING ON YOU

You SHOULD tell them to hit you up after the grp dissolves

[FranOhmsford]

Not really, but if you summon a hireling in a EYOH EE run then you should expect it.

Really?

Who does this?

Not I!

A Hireling in an EE {ANY EE} is a Pointless Waste of Time {No...Not Katz' Character!}.

I've never once stated that people pulling hirelings UNANNOUNCED in ANY BYOH {I assume you meant BYOH?} Group should be acceptable either!

However: If said player asks first and the leader says fine {unlikely in an EE} then why is that a problem for you? {If you're the leader you can just say No after all!}.

And not everyone realises that BYOH doesn't count hires {Especially Newbies!} - Give that newbie the benefit of the doubt and simply type/say "Dismiss the Hire please this is a Bring your own heals run!"
If he refuses then you have every right to squelch him, boot him, reform around him - Just make sure he's not being a Jerk first!

[FranOhmsford]

Of course severity matters. Sayreville didn't cancel games over shaving cream pies

If you're still grped with other people, between quests is not the time to answer million questions either. People with limited playing time might be WAITING ON YOU

You SHOULD tell them to hit you up after the grp dissolves

No - Severity doesn't matter!

Bullying is Bullying just like Rape is Rape or Theft is Theft or Cheating is Cheating!

Severity only matters when it comes to deciding the severity of the punishment!

NOT when it comes to deciding whether the victim supposedly deserved it or not!


Re-read my post - A Couple of questions is a long long way from a Million!

[kned225]

No - Severity doesn't matter!

Bullying is Bullying just like Rape is Rape or Theft is Theft or Cheating is Cheating!

Severity only matters when it comes to deciding the severity of the punishment!

NOT when it comes to deciding whether the victim supposedly deserved it or not!


Re-read my post - A Couple of questions is a long long way from a Million!

Whoa.....

You can't seriously be comparing alleged newb griefing or vet impatience to....rape, can you?

[Monkey-Boy]

Whoa.....

You can't seriously be comparing alleged newb griefing or vet impatience to....rape, can you?

I think he just did.

[bartharok]

Whoa.....

You can't seriously be comparing alleged newb griefing or vet impatience to....rape, can you?

He didnt compare them. He stated that harming someone is always harming someone.

[kned225]

He didnt compare them. He stated that harming someone is always harming someone.

Whoa...

You guys need to take a step back. Not a trivial topic to toss into a videogame discussion

Whoa...

[bartharok]

Whoa...

You guys need to take a step back. Not a trivial topic to toss into a videogame discussion

Whoa...

I dont do stepping back, im afraid. Its a personality flaw that gets me into trouble. The only solution is not stepping towards me.

And i do dislike bullying of every kind. Which stresses me a lot, since me always standing my ground, even when utterly unnecessary, can be bullying of a sort.

[Blackheartox]

Really?

Who does this?

Not I!

A Hireling in an EE {ANY EE} is a Pointless Waste of Time {No...Not Katz' Character!}.

I've never once stated that people pulling hirelings UNANNOUNCED in ANY BYOH {I assume you meant BYOH?} Group should be acceptable either!

However: If said player asks first and the leader says fine {unlikely in an EE} then why is that a problem for you? {If you're the leader you can just say No after all!}.

And not everyone realises that BYOH doesn't count hires {Especially Newbies!} - Give that newbie the benefit of the doubt and simply type/say "Dismiss the Hire please this is a Bring your own heals run!"
If he refuses then you have every right to squelch him, boot him, reform around him - Just make sure he's not being a Jerk first!

Ah cmon, we dont play the same game.
Hire waste of time in epic elite?
Srsly..


Did you ever use mikayl?
One of most timesaving hires in ddo

Also fully pumped up larafay (druid past lifes aug summoning new shipies and harper thingies and maybe some primal buffs) has the potential to instakill in epic elite /old epics tho.

[Jeralrik]

I would like to formerly apologize on the hireling comment I made in my last statement as our 3 man group tried to do elite Irestone and not a single healer could be found and we ended up using a hireling granted she died more than the party but she did come in handy for close call heals.

When I meant about hirelings is that you remove all these multi class levels and only allow speccing 2 classes if you so chose to multiclass and then with a broader market of classes being available less need for hirelings in groups, not so much as taking hirelings away from the solo players who don't want to group.

Guess I'm just old fashioned in my way of thinking from playing AD&D in high school to D&D 3.0 and trying to compare an online game to a ruleset in books, guess Turbine no longer wanted to follow a true Dungeons & Dragons style game and decided Chaos was better.

The problem in the early days was and the reason a lot of players moved on was how slow we were at getting new levels, we started out at 1 - 10 for almost 2 years before advancing to level 15 and eventually level 20 but by then the damage had been done people got bored and moved on the die hard's stuck it out an stayed. F2P is nice when your low on funds or want to try out a new game what they need to do is revamp the store, offering stuff that would be better found in a dungeon than easily bought makes it seem rather redundant. <IMO>

[Thar]

wow ,all the OverPowered toons! WoW ...every one is running with three rows of buffs on their character...oh ,so powerfull...gosh we are really impressed down here. I'm not near a one shot EE solo player,but it is really ironic that the same players who says the game is to easy ,are also on the ship buff team. Are ship buffs just addicting? I use 8 buffs on a smaller ship;it feels like a huge power creep...so kudos all ya with 20 or more buffs ..who say the game is to easy.

don't remove anything. if you don't like it, don't use it.

ship buff's didn't make EE easy... prr/mrr, 2xmrr with shields, and melee power made it easy.

[kned225]

don't remove anything. if you don't like it, don't use it.


Self gimping still isn't the answer