New pre-made path suggestions

[Grace_ana]

As we all know, the pre-made paths for DDO just suck. They're outdated, and they were never very good to begin with. I remember starting on one with my rogue and being completely gimped until I redid her with a heart (who thought 10 con would be a good idea??). So I was curious - what would you suggest were you to redo the premade paths?

Rules for the pre-made paths are as follows:

1. It must be a pure build.
2. It cannot require any tomes.
3. It should have both a 28-pt and 32-pt option.
4. It should be workable with any race. This means including racial feats is fine, as long as a particular racial feat isn't vital.
5. Don't include enhancements, though the paths should be anchored in a tree much like the current ones are anchored in a former PRE.
6. It should only go up to level 20.

Maybe if we can toss around some good ideas, Turbine will revise them. Good, workable pre-made paths would do a lot for new player retention (my opinion, anyway). And please, keep it respectful, because apparently there was a thread about the paths in the new player section not long ago that turned into a slugfest and got closed.

[Vargouille]

This is a good and well-intentioned thread. It may be worth pointing out that pre-made paths are individually created for each race, in both 28 and 32 point builds. This is essentially required due to different ability score and sometimes feat choices (such as Half Elf). This means that Fighters, for example, actually have 48 distinct paths - 3 named paths for 8 races, for both 28 and 32 point builds. Across all 13 classes that's 624 distinct paths, plus one more per Iconic.

[Grace_ana]

Shows how much I avoid the pre-mades, thanks Varg! Changing the OP to reflect that.

[LongshotBro]

a few months ago i rolled up a fighter to test some things, one of which was the viability of paths. i was pleasantly surprised at how well it performed, to be honest. i mean, it's not an optimal min/max build or anything, but it turned out okay. character is currently in epics with the ability to UMD heal scrolls, with great defenses. DPS isn't stellar, but it's playable for sure. note that i let the path determine all my choices. UMD was the most surprising one of all. at first i was like "UMD on a vanilla pregen fighter?" but as it turns out, it works pretty well.

for a vet with lots of knowledge, yeah the paths aren't spectacular compared to what you'd build on your own. but for a new player, i believe they work well.

[Grace_ana]

My experience when I was a new player was vastly different. Regardless, I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not we should change them. At the very least they desperately need to be updated since all the huge changes we have had in the game systems. The things that work can certainly be incorporated into newer builds.

[Paleus]

First: Holy **** Vargouille, that is a lot of work that goes into pre-made paths.
Second: I'm going to take the easy way out and only suggest one path with minor notes.

Paladin 28 pt.
Abilities
Str: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Intelligence: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

All level ups in strength

Feats in Order
1 - Power Attack
1 - Bastard Sword Proficiency (if human)
3 - Shield Mastery
6 - Improved Shield Bash
9 - Improved Crit: Slash
12 - Improved Shield Master
15 - Cleave
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Tower Shield Proficiency
27 - Empower Healing

Primary Skills in Order of Importance: UMD, Heal, Balance (1st Level put 1 full rank into tumble)

Notes: Humans can get more skills than other races, so decrease the skills taken based on race factors. Target ability stats around those areas. I consider 12 wisdom a substandard choice for most players, but required for new players who might not know to gear up for casting the first two levels of spells. But they should figure it out and have gear by the 3rd and 4th. A vet would reduce that ability. I put cleave and great cleave later because I think they are useful if not going KOTC, but if going KOTC you can drop great cleave. I'd still suggest at least cleave for LD momentum swing qualifications. By level 15 a player should be able to go off-script, probably take quicken if human or b-sword if not human (empower heal may also be replaced by quicken, and I probably should have done that in the base). I also left Tower shield proficiency until late because most good enough shields while leveling are regular (PDK and Bastion are higher level), and by that point the player could decide if they just want to scroll master's touch.

The build itself lends towards the Vanguard and Stalwart Defender tree as that improves a new player's likelihood of survival. Again, its not meant to be the best, or even near the best, its just meant to situate itself easily into the new hotness and cover for any player learning curves.

[Inoukchuk]

As we all know, the pre-made paths for DDO just suck. They're outdated, and they were never very good to begin with. I remember starting on one with my rogue and being completely gimped until I redid her with a heart (who thought 10 con would be a good idea??). So I was curious - what would you suggest were you to redo the premade paths?

Rules for the pre-made paths are as follows:

1. It must be a pure build.
2. It cannot require any tomes.
3. It should have both a 28-pt and 32-pt option.
4. It should be workable with any race. This means including racial feats is fine, as long as a particular racial feat isn't vital.
5. Don't include enhancements, though the paths should be anchored in a tree much like the current ones are anchored in a former PRE.
6. It should only go up to level 20.

Maybe if we can toss around some good ideas, Turbine will revise them. Good, workable pre-made paths would do a lot for new player retention (my opinion, anyway). And please, keep it respectful, because apparently there was a thread about the paths in the new player section not long ago that turned into a slugfest and got closed.

Unfortunately most builds are very dependent on enhancements. Also unfortunate is that every update and significant patch will likely cause several paths to be made obsolete. It might be a better idea to just warn players that any pre-made path is sub-optimal. Just thinking about fighters, for instance, there are so many different build options and each one is mostly built around what enhancements you want (S&B Vanguard, Tank, TWF Kensei, etc), rather than the other way around. It might honestly be a better idea for the pre-mades to include enhancement selection, then maybe add an option when leveling to include/revert to path selected APs or select your own (that way they could tinker with them, but still be able to go back to the path selection if they feel like they've strayed too far at any time or want a guide to reference).

If you did this it would be good to target a small selection of epic level builds for each class, based primarily on PRE options:

Bard: Caster bard or swashbuckler(single) or swashbuckler(buckler)
Cleric: DC cleric, support cleric, melee cleric
Druid: Caster druid or melee druid
Fighter: S&B, TWF, or THF
Sorc: Proc spec (Shiradi) or AoE spec (draconic)
etc.

To reduce the work load of this you might want to cut the races you choose from in half or 1/3, which would further help keep the player from gimping themselves anyway (no half-orc pure sorc/wiz for example).

Just a thought.

[Grace_ana]

Unfortunately most builds are very dependent on enhancements. Also unfortunate is that every update and significant patch will likely cause several paths to be made obsolete. It might be a better idea to just warn players that any pre-made path is sub-optimal. Just thinking about fighters, for instance, there are so many different build options and each one is mostly built around what enhancements you want (S&B Vanguard, Tank, TWF Kensei, etc), rather than the other way around. It might honestly be a better idea for the pre-mades to include enhancement selection, then maybe add an option when leveling to include/revert to path selected APs or select your own (that way they could tinker with them, but still be able to go back to the path selection if they feel like they've strayed too far at any time or want a guide to reference).

If you did this it would be good to target a small selection of epic level builds for each class, based primarily on PRE options:

Bard: Caster bard or swashbuckler(single) or swashbuckler(buckler)
Cleric: DC cleric, support cleric, melee cleric
Druid: Caster druid or melee druid
Fighter: S&B, TWF, or THF
Sorc: Proc spec (Shiradi) or AoE spec (draconic)
etc.

To reduce the work load of this you might want to cut the races you choose from in half or 1/3, which would further help keep the player from gimping themselves anyway (no half-orc pure sorc/wiz for example).

Just a thought.

I understand your points as far as optimization, but that isn't what the pre-mades do, so I'm trying to work with what they actually do to improve the chances of something changing. Asking for a complete overhaul of the system is not likely to be successful.

Paleus - What race is that? How would you redistribute points for other races? What would you suggest for the extra human feat? And thanks :)

I'm tossing around assassins, since that's my favorite to play. So far, I have this:

28 pt.
(Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha)

Human 8/16/14/16/10/8
Elf 8/16/14/16/10/8
Halfling 8/16/14/16/12/8
Dwarf 10/16/14/16/10/8
Warforged 8/16/14/16/10/8
Half-elf 8/16/14/16/10/8
Drow 8/16/14/18/10/8
Half-orc 10/16/14/14/10/6

Level ups in dex*
*I really debated this with myself, because int based rogues are so viable now. I have one myself. But what it came down to was that a new player with not much in the way of points or tomes to play with won't get to 21 dex if level ups go into int, and that means no improved sneak attack in epic levels. I don't want someone to get all the way up to that and not have the stat points to take what any assassin would take. The couple extra points went into wisdom for spot, since a new player won't know where the trap boxes are.

32 pts - same except bump con up to 16 on all, excepting half-orc where int gets bumped up to 16. Yes, I know HP isn't everything, but it gives a new player a buffer and helps with fort saves.

Feats -
1 - Dodge
Human feat - Suggestions? Dragonmark of passage, maybe?
Helf feat - I'm leaning towards arti.
3 - TWF
6 - Precision
9 - ITWF
10 - Improved evasion
12 - Improved critical: piercing
13 - Opportunist
15 - GTWF
16 - Skill mastery (not something a vet would need, but an undergeared new player definitely could use the extra skill points)
18 - I'm leaning toward Mobility to give a new player a bit more in the way of defenses. But I really am not sure what would be best here for a brand-new player, so suggestions are welcome.
19 - Slippery mind

Skills maxed in balance, bluff, diplomacy, disable, hide, jump, move silently, open lock, search, spot, and UMD. Half-orc has fewer skill points; skip jump.

I am not at all a master build planner, especially for newbies, so feel free to comment.

[niehues]

This is a good and well-intentioned thread. It may be worth pointing out that pre-made paths are individually created for each race, in both 28 and 32 point builds. This is essentially required due to different ability score and sometimes feat choices (such as Half Elf). This means that Fighters, for example, actually have 48 distinct paths - 3 named paths for 8 races, for both 28 and 32 point builds. Across all 13 classes that's 624 distinct paths, plus one more per Iconic.

how about sabe your build to use it again.. some sort of txt that u load and use once u lvling up.. (maybe im asking too much here)

I would be happy with a ETR that u could choose to use the lesser or just keep the build u already have... (save a lot of trouble here... but yeah it has to be a choice coz some times i use that to lesser and try diff builds b4 TR again..)


If i recall someone said something about the second sugestion when u guys were doing the ETR pass...

[niehues]

As we all know, the pre-made paths for DDO just suck. They're outdated, and they were never very good to begin with. I remember starting on one with my rogue and being completely gimped until I redid her with a heart (who thought 10 con would be a good idea??). So I was curious - what would you suggest were you to redo the premade paths?

Rules for the pre-made paths are as follows:

1. It must be a pure build.
2. It cannot require any tomes.
3. It should have both a 28-pt and 32-pt option.
4. It should be workable with any race. This means including racial feats is fine, as long as a particular racial feat isn't vital.
5. Don't include enhancements, though the paths should be anchored in a tree much like the current ones are anchored in a former PRE.
6. It should only go up to level 20.

Maybe if we can toss around some good ideas, Turbine will revise them. Good, workable pre-made paths would do a lot for new player retention (my opinion, anyway). And please, keep it respectful, because apparently there was a thread about the paths in the new player section not long ago that turned into a slugfest and got closed.


Already said something just abt a post up.. but it came to mind now..

how about u can save and load your builds via txt or something so ppl could post their builds on the forums and perhas the most voted ones could go pre loaded on the DDO as a choice..

that would involve the comunity with builds, votes and so on..

DDO has a great comunity and turbine could take advantage of that.. Im pretty sure ppl would love to have their builds listed on the DDO preloaded builds

[EllisDee37]

5. Don't include enhancements, though the paths should be anchored in a tree much like the current ones are anchored in a former PRE.Do the default paths right now on live select your enhancements for you?

I'd be up for putting a few builds together.

[EllisDee37]

I wonder what happens to your extra skill points if you roll up and stay on a default path, then around level 16 you eat a +2 int tome, like maybe from the 1750 favor reward?

[Grace_ana]

Do the default paths right now on live select your enhancements for you?

They might have before, I'm not sure, but I know they don't now. I just rolled one up to make sure.


I'd be up for putting a few builds together.

Awesome, you're one of the people I was hoping would weigh in. I know you've done a lot of newbie-friendly builds.

[droid327]

This is a good and well-intentioned thread. It may be worth pointing out that pre-made paths are individually created for each race, in both 28 and 32 point builds. This is essentially required due to different ability score and sometimes feat choices (such as Half Elf). This means that Fighters, for example, actually have 48 distinct paths - 3 named paths for 8 races, for both 28 and 32 point builds. Across all 13 classes that's 624 distinct paths, plus one more per Iconic.

Why should you have to provide variations for every race and every class? That's not how pre-made builds work. They're cookie cutters. Just cut the cookie all the way around.

I envision a different style of "path" that would be much more streamlined and easier to implement and expand. Basically, just an automated/integrated form of the cookie cutter builds often posted in the forums. It'd be a sub-menu in character creation, at the first initial step, where you could browse a library of premade builds that included all the non-cosmetic choices for you. Basically like Iconics, but everything's locked into the Path. If you don't have the requisite features unlocked (races, classes, 32 points, Harper, etc.) then those builds are greyed out for you. The only caveat would be that builds shouldn't require character-level achievements like tomes or specific gear or EDs to be viable, and should be viable for a first life, obviously.

Since every build just represents one suite of choices, its relatively easy to add new ones or remove ones that become obsolete. Turbine could add any build they felt provided a good option for new players to experience the game or explore new playstyles...you could even make it a community feature, have us vote on which builds we think are worthy to elect to the "Hall of Fame", maybe with a TP prize for the author or something.

[FranOhmsford]

a few months ago i rolled up a fighter to test some things, one of which was the viability of paths. i was pleasantly surprised at how well it performed, to be honest. i mean, it's not an optimal min/max build or anything, but it turned out okay. character is currently in epics with the ability to UMD heal scrolls, with great defenses. DPS isn't stellar, but it's playable for sure. note that i let the path determine all my choices. UMD was the most surprising one of all. at first i was like "UMD on a vanilla pregen fighter?" but as it turns out, it works pretty well.

A Player with a join date in 2006 states that he/she tried out a pre-made build recently and it worked fine for him/her.

Then states this:

for a vet with lots of knowledge, yeah the paths aren't spectacular compared to what you'd build on your own. but for a new player, i believe they work well.

REALLY?

You are NOT a NEW Player!

I am NOT a NEW Player!

But I've also tried out a couple of these pre-made paths in the past 2 weeks {it was my thread that got closed btw!} and frankly they SUCK for a New Player!

A Vet like you or I with knowledge of the game can make them work sure - Popping over to Lockania to get the Feat Swap token to take to Fred to get rid of the second Toughness Feat OR Exotic Weapon Prof: Khopesh {Both of which are given at Lvl 1 on different Human Pre-made non-twf Fighter Builds...} for instance!

But for a Newbie these are just plain bad!

[Grace_ana]

Okay, I would like to get this thread back on track. Please take the arguing and yelling elsewhere. If you have a build or want to comment (constructively) on a build, please do. Otherwise, this is not the place for you, and I do not want the thread locked.

Droid, the reason the races matter is because, as Varg pointed out, the ability points, skill points, and some feats are different depending on races. I agree the builds by race should be as close to each other as possible, but you can't ignore the fact that humans get an extra feat, or half-elves get dilly feats, or drow get a different stat spread. That's all he meant.

[Grace_ana]

Taking a stab at swashbuckler:

28 pt.
(Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha)

Human 10/16/14/8/8/16
Elf 8/16/14/8/10/16
Halfling 8/16/16/8/8/16
Dwarf 8/14/16/8/8/16
Warforged 10/14/16/8/8/16
Half-elf 10/16/14/8/8/16
Drow 10/16/14/10/8/18
Half-orc 10/14/14/8/8/16

Level ups in charisma*
*I originally went dex for reflex, but I changed it to reflect Braegan's advice.

32 pt. - same except extra points in con for human, half-elf, half-orc; 8/16/16/8/8/16 for elf; dex for dwarf; 8/15/16/8/8/16 for warforged; halfling extra points could really go anywhere

Feats -
1 - SWF
Human feat - Force of personality, dodge, extend, maximize - what do you guys think?
Helf feat - paladin
3 - Precision
6 - Shield mastery
9 - ISWF
12 - Improved critical: piercing
15 - GSWF
18 - Improved shield mastery

Skills maxed in balance, bluff, diplomacy, heal, perform, and UMD. Half-orc has fewer skill points; skip heal.

[moomooprincess]

Turbine has an active database. Turbine also has archived databases.

Data Mine it.

You want a good cleric? Find the Top 100 Level 20 clerics on each server and compare them. I am sure that they all have close to the same characteristics. IF EPIC is important, then the cleric must be Epic. But most pre-made paths will be selected by a new player, not a knowledgable vet player. So, a new player might not be doing EPICs for awhile.(power gamers are the exception to all rules)

You could use RAIDS as a statistic to eliminate the levels, since Turbine gives us RAID counts. Any cleric that has done every raid 100 times, probably is a decent cleric and probably played by a very good player.

It is not that hard to write a SQL View that will do this.

[Hamlin]

Grace_ana, I really like this idea. But as Vargouille pointed out, this project will require 624 paths to be made. I'd like to suggest that, if you're going to lead this project (it's strictly a community thing right?) then you should make a roster of volunteers. Depending on how many you get, that's how you divy out the work. Maybe you get one guy to do Vangard Warrior for all races. Someone else will do all the Stalwart Soldiers. And so on.

I'd really like to see where this goes. Maybe they'll eventually end up as permanent sticky posts in the class forums, or even replace what's currently available on ddo.com!

[Grace_ana]

Grace_ana, I really like this idea. But as Vargouille pointed out, this project will require 624 paths to be made. I'd like to suggest that, if you're going to lead this project (it's strictly a community thing right?) then you should make a roster of volunteers. Depending on how many you get, that's how you divy out the work. Maybe you get one guy to do Vangard Warrior for all races. Someone else will do all the Stalwart Soldiers. And so on.

I'd really like to see where this goes. Maybe they'll eventually end up as permanent sticky posts in the class forums, or even replace what's currently available on ddo.com!

Thanks! It's not so bad as that, though. Each of the ones I did above is a total of 16 paths. I just made a basic one and then made the adjustments for races and build points. And certainly I am seeking volunteers; that's what this thread is about :) I'm sure people with expertise in various classes will chime in.

I'd really hope that they actually change the premade paths in the game itself. Not everyone goes to the forums. My son started playing DDO awhile back, but he quit when he got frustrated about the paths. He didn't want me to help him with a build, and he didn't want to spend endless time reading up on the forums and wiki to figure it all out. He wanted to be able to pick one, have it be viable (if not min/maxed), and learn the class and game. I think that's a reasonable expectation of any new players.

[Braegan]

I can post some build templates if you wish.

Maybe I'll draw up some FvS ones, I leveled up all the paths to 7 and tried a few races and they are kinda outdated.

BTW: regarding your Swashbuckler, I would vote to go cha based. Smooth Flourishes makes melee great and then they have some CC with spells and more SP.

[DANTEIL]

I think this is a good idea. I certainly hope that it gets off the ground. I'm all for crowdsourcing this. Back in the day I used tihocan's versions of the paths and they were great.


On a related note, I often thought that it would be an excellent thing if Turbine made a Community Contest out of something like this, and had people submit suggested pre-made path builds and then chose (or let us vote on, but that would get messy) one build per class (rather than the 792352 that Vargouille mentioned) that could be added as "highlighted" paths. That way, newer players could have at least one community-suggested option per class (but probably not class & race)

[Grace_ana]

I can post some build templates if you wish.

Maybe I'll draw up some FvS ones, I leveled up all the paths to 7 and tried a few races and they are kinda outdated.

BTW: regarding your Swashbuckler, I would vote to go cha based. Smooth Flourishes makes melee great and then they have some CC with spells and more SP.

Please do! I have nearly zero experience with FVS. And thanks for the advice on the swashbuckler stats. Dex-based can get some pretty insane reflex saves, but for a pure build and including second skin, charisma-based should still do just fine.

I was thinking too - even though the premade paths don't have enhancements, it might be good if it at least gives some advice on if there are a few (no more than a handful) enhancements you really need. For example, in the swashbuckler build, you would want to make sure the person knows to take smooth flourishes, or they would get pretty frustrated with their damage. Devs, is there any way to add something like that to the character creation screen? Other advice is in there anyway.

[Braegan]

Please do! I have nearly zero experience with FVS. And thanks for the advice on the swashbuckler stats. Dex-based can get some pretty insane reflex saves, but for a pure build and including second skin, charisma-based should still do just fine.

I was thinking too - even though the premade paths don't have enhancements, it might be good if it at least gives some advice on if there are a few (no more than a handful) enhancements you really need. For example, in the swashbuckler build, you would want to make sure the person knows to take smooth flourishes, or they would get pretty frustrated with their damage. Devs, is there any way to add something like that to the character creation screen? Other advice is in there anyway.

Cool, I'll have some time to draw something up by Friday and post something.

And, I agree something to guide some enhancements would be cool too. In the example of a Swashbuckler that's Cha based without Smooth Flourish may feel a bit lacking.

In any event +1 to you for starting this.

[Ermin_Sivarch]

yea, I doubt they are doing all the different paths with the premades, instead for ability scores they have a set ability scores in mind and the races just change them slightly. for feats, the majority of them are the same, with the human race giving one extra. So really the premades are based off of the different classes primarily, with 3 different types of character per class. I'm not sure how well this jives with the new enhancements.

As for a khopesh, even with a sword and board a khopesh statistically is one of the best one-handed weapons in the game. so for a fighter using a feat to get it is not a bad chocie imho. The only thing that pretty much matches the khopesh is the new swashbuckler enhancement tree, making alot of weapons like dagger or short sword comparable to a khopesh in terms of crit profile. The swashbuckler also has the added speed boosts making them very dangerous in terms of DPS.

[Vellrad]

SORCERER: fire+air savant (in place of current elementalist path)

Mostly fire spells, with electric as back up, with buffs, CC and necro for instakill chance or debuff.

Level 1:
Stats:
Human/Elf/Hobbit/Half-efl:
8/8/16/10/18
Dwarf/warforged:
8/8/18/10/16
Half-orc:
10/8/16/8/18
Feats (humans get 1 extra feat, in order (so at lvl1 they get maximize, and at 3rd toughness)
Empower
(1/2elf) Paladin dil.
(human)Maximize
Spells:
Burn. hands, (repair light for WF) exp. retreat
Level 2:
Sleep
Level 3:
(human)Toughness
(else)Maximize
Jump
Level 4:
Charisma +1
Scorching ray
Level 5:
Blur
Level 6:
Feat:
(nonhuman)Toughness
(human) Spell focus (evocation)
Fireball
Level 7:
Web, Haste
Level 8:
Charisma +1
Wall of Fire
Level 9.
Feat
(nonhuman)Spell focus (evocation)
(human)Heighten
Resist energy, Displacement, Dimension door
Level 10.
Ball lightning
Level 11.
11.: Repair serious, Fireshield, Cyclonic blast
Level 12:
Charisma +1
(Human)Greater spell focus
(Warforged)Quicken
(other)Heighten
Chain Lightning
Level 13:
Enervation, Protection from elements, Reconstruct (WF), circle of death (others)
Level 14:
Delayed blast fireball
Level 15:
feat:
(human)Quicken
(other)Greater spell focus
Teleport, Circle of death (WF), Create undead (other), Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Level 16:
Charisma +1
Otto's Irresistible dance
Level 17:
Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting
Level 18:
feat:
(human) Spell focus (necromancy)
(warforged) Heighten
(other)Quicken
Meteor Swarm
Level 19:
Greater Shout, Energy Drain
Level 20
Charisma +1
Wail of the Banshee

Skills(humans):
Spellcraft, concentration, UMD, heal
Skills(half orcs):
Spellcraft
Skills(other races):
Spellcraft, concentration, UMD

[Rogoth]

Thiocan posted these a few years back:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/232660-Revisiting-paths-Builds-for-new-players


Whilst these will be somewhat out of date you may be able to adapt the work done already to save some time. Good luck. It would be nice if the pathway builds were able to show off the best of the game to newbies.

[FranOhmsford]

As for a khopesh, even with a sword and board a khopesh statistically is one of the best one-handed weapons in the game. so for a fighter using a feat to get it is not a bad chocie imho. The only thing that pretty much matches the khopesh is the new swashbuckler enhancement tree, making alot of weapons like dagger or short sword comparable to a khopesh in terms of crit profile. The swashbuckler also has the added speed boosts making them very dangerous in terms of DPS.

Decent Khops are difficult to find for newbies.
When you use Pre-Made Paths to create your character you go straight into the game with no way to check what the Pre-Made has given you in the way of feats!
Once you get into the game as a veteran you have to pull up the Character Feats Panel and look through it to figure out which Feats its actually chosen for you!
I spent 5 minutes trying to figure out why my Human Fighter only had TWO feats before mousing over Toughness and seeing it had been taken TWICE!
Newbies don't know any of this!
Giving a Newbie Exotic Wpn Prof Khop on a non-TWF build is pointless - Sure...A vet can workout a build to use that Khop but B-Sword {or if Dwarf - D-Axe} is a far better and more obvious option for the newbie - Who will most likely be using a Long Sword, Greatsword or Ember G-Axe for the first couple of levels anyway!


At the very least the Pre-Made Creation should show you what its chosen for you BEFORE you click accept!

Feats especially but Stats and skills too would be nice.


Also - The Devs could at least add a Khop and a D-Axe to the Collaborator End Reward list if they're going to stick with these Pre-Mades!

[FranOhmsford]

As I've said before: The vast majority of Newbies will leave the Pre-Made Path long before they hit Lvl 10 {never mind Lvl 20!}.

Building Pre-Made's to be good at Lvl 20 is the wrong way to go about this {in my opinion!}.

I'd much prefer the Devs create Pre-Mades that lay out the first 6 levels for a newbie before allowing the newbie to customise from that point on!
Give the Newbie a decent starting character and a path to follow for when they have to choose their own route {lvl 7 onwards}.


Human Stalwart

Emphasise Sword and Board and the Ember Longsword:

Lvl 1 - Power Attack, Cleave, Toughness
Lvl 2 - Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword {Add a B-Sword to the Collaborator End Reward List}
Lvl 3 - Shield Mastery
Lvl 4 - Great Cleave
Lvl 6 - Improved Shield Bash, Two Handed Fighting

Emphasise the later Feats: Improved THF, Greater THF, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Crit: Slashing

Human Whirlwind

Emphasise Light Armour and the Ember Scimitar.

Lvl 1 - Dodge, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Slashing
Lvl 2 - Mobility
Lvl 3 - Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Lvl 4 - Exotic Wpn Prof: Khopesh
Lvl 6 - Improved TWF, Spring Attack

Emphasise the later Feats: Whirlwind Attack, Greater TWF, Weapon Specialization, Improved Crit: Slashing

Human Vanguard

With the new Vanguard Enhancement Tree being so heavily Shield related I don't see a reason to have this Pre-Made Path - I'd build it pretty much exactly the same as the Stalwart!

[Tom.JonesJr]

it might be good if it at least gives some advice on if there are a few (no more than a handful) enhancements you really need. For example, in the swashbuckler build, you would want to make sure the person knows to take smooth flourishes, or they would get pretty frustrated with their damage. Devs, is there any way to add something like that to the character creation screen? Other advice is in there anyway.

Maybe this could be done with the popup help windows when the enhancement is available and the player is on the path.

[Ralmeth]

First: Holy **** Vargouille, that is a lot of work that goes into pre-made paths.
Second: I'm going to take the easy way out and only suggest one path with minor notes.

Paladin 28 pt.
Abilities
Str: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Intelligence: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

All level ups in strength

Feats in Order
1 - Power Attack
1 - Bastard Sword Proficiency (if human)
3 - Shield Mastery
6 - Improved Shield Bash
9 - Improved Crit: Slash
12 - Improved Shield Master
15 - Cleave
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Tower Shield Proficiency
27 - Empower Healing

Primary Skills in Order of Importance: UMD, Heal, Balance (1st Level put 1 full rank into tumble)

Notes: Humans can get more skills than other races, so decrease the skills taken based on race factors. Target ability stats around those areas. I consider 12 wisdom a substandard choice for most players, but required for new players who might not know to gear up for casting the first two levels of spells. But they should figure it out and have gear by the 3rd and 4th. A vet would reduce that ability. I put cleave and great cleave later because I think they are useful if not going KOTC, but if going KOTC you can drop great cleave. I'd still suggest at least cleave for LD momentum swing qualifications. By level 15 a player should be able to go off-script, probably take quicken if human or b-sword if not human (empower heal may also be replaced by quicken, and I probably should have done that in the base). I also left Tower shield proficiency until late because most good enough shields while leveling are regular (PDK and Bastion are higher level), and by that point the player could decide if they just want to scroll master's touch.

The build itself lends towards the Vanguard and Stalwart Defender tree as that improves a new player's likelihood of survival. Again, its not meant to be the best, or even near the best, its just meant to situate itself easily into the new hotness and cover for any player learning curves.

You have some mistakes in your build, but this does lead to an issue with this idea. Ideally each class's path should have some debate / input from the community. You really need a leader (community member) to lead the discussion within each specific class forum, with the end result being the new paths presented to Turbine. Otherwise you are going to get lots of different suggestions for the same paths.

Also, before everyone gets started there needs to be some buy-in from Turbine that they will seriously consider modifying the paths to what is presented. Will they do that?

[Jatner]

Rather than look at updating 624 paths or however many it was, all that is really needed is a couple of paths per class with a 'recommended race' on each. On the character creation screen, new players select a race as normal and can then see what classes are recommended. Players can go 'off-piste' and select a different class, but would then stop being on a path. A simple text warning at that stage similar to when someone on a path levels elsewhere is all that would be required.

That cuts the number of paths needed to 20 or 30 at the most which is far more manageable.

[FranOhmsford]

First: Holy **** Vargouille, that is a lot of work that goes into pre-made paths.
Second: I'm going to take the easy way out and only suggest one path with minor notes.

Paladin 28 pt.
Abilities
Str: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Intelligence: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

All level ups in strength

Feats in Order
1 - Power Attack
1 - Bastard Sword Proficiency (if human)
3 - Shield Mastery
6 - Improved Shield Bash
9 - Improved Crit: Slash
12 - Improved Shield Master
15 - Cleave
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Tower Shield Proficiency
27 - Empower Healing

Primary Skills in Order of Importance: UMD, Heal, Balance (1st Level put 1 full rank into tumble)


Stats are fine but where's Intimidate?

Also: I'd place Cleave much higher up that Feat List as these are wonderful Feats at low levels!
Move Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword to Lvl 15 or 18 as a Paladin who hasn't bothered with the THF line can make do with a Longsword or Scimi till then.
Move Cleave to Lvl 1 on a Human, Lvl 3 otherwise
Swap Great Cleave with Imp. Shield Mastery


BTW - This really does show just how Feat Starved Pure Paladins are!

2 Levels of Fighter gets you 2 more Feats + FREE Tower Shield Prof!

[FranOhmsford]

Human Sword and Board Paladin

Lvl 1 - Power Attack, Cleave
Lvl 3 - Shield Mastery
Lvl 6 - Great Cleave

Emphasise later Feats: Imp Crit Slashing, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Shield Mastery

Human THF Paladin

Lvl 1 - Power Attack, Cleave
Lvl 3 - THF
Lvl 6 - Extend Spell {Buffs}

Emphasise later Feats: Imp Crit Slashing {or Bludgeoning}, Improved THF, Greater THF.

Great Cleave possibly unnecessary depending on Enhancement choices.

Human TWF Paladin

Lvl 1 - Dodge, TWF
Lvl 3 - Precision
Lvl 6 - Improved TWF

Emphasise later Feats: Imp Crit Slashing, Greater TWF, Mobility, Spring Attack, Overwhelming Crit, Whirlwind Attack

Really could do with two fighter levels!

[Paleus]

Stats are fine but where's Intimidate?

Also: I'd place Cleave much higher up that Feat List as these are wonderful Feats at low levels!
Move Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword to Lvl 15 or 18 as a Paladin who hasn't bothered with the THF line can make do with a Longsword or Scimi till then.
Move Cleave to Lvl 1 on a Human, Lvl 3 otherwise
Swap Great Cleave with Imp. Shield Mastery


BTW - This really does show just how Feat Starved Pure Paladins are!

2 Levels of Fighter gets you 2 more Feats + FREE Tower Shield Prof!

Cleave was placed high because access to KOTC cleave has a low AP investment and would completely replace it. I worry it would turn-off a new player to see a feat they were forced to purchase completely invalidated early on. Additionally, placing shield feats earlier would encourage the player to use shields, adds some survivability. However, if a new player went all the way to 20 they would want cleave for LD Momentum Swing ability, so it is a feat tax that needs to be paid somewhere. They might not go full KOTC either in which case they might have T5 vanguard and be locked out of the KOTC great cleave version which helps speed up MS regen. But at that point, they are probably making their own choices (as mentioned in the notes) so I didn't feel bad leaving it until late. Exotic Weapon Prof was left low because it was using an optional feat based on chosen race, using the bonus feat from human. As you note, its hard to squeeze feats into a pure paladin build. I'm currently playing a Vanguard/Stalwart (not this build) and find that not having cleave + great cleave while leveling was fine given the vanguard enhancements and low KOTC enhancements.

That said, it illustrated for me the difficulty of coming up with pre-made paths. A lot of decisions hinged on trying to guess what APs a new player might try out and how not to make those decisions appear bad short term but also not be bad long-term. That led to decisions that I think any vet would change in a heart-beat (on top of not being able to multi-class). Which is kind of why vets tend to naturally hate the pre-made paths.

[FranOhmsford]

Cleave was placed high because access to KOTC cleave has a low AP investment and would completely replace it. I worry it would turn-off a new player to see a feat they were forced to purchase completely invalidated early on. Additionally, placing shield feats earlier would encourage the player to use shields, adds some survivability. However, if a new player went all the way to 20 they would want cleave for LD Momentum Swing ability, so it is a feat tax that needs to be paid somewhere. They might not go full KOTC either in which case they might have T5 vanguard and be locked out of the KOTC great cleave version which helps speed up MS regen. But at that point, they are probably making their own choices (as mentioned in the notes) so I didn't feel bad leaving it until late. Exotic Weapon Prof was left low because it was using an optional feat based on chosen race, using the bonus feat from human. As you note, its hard to squeeze feats into a pure paladin build. I'm currently playing a Vanguard/Stalwart (not this build) and find that not having cleave + great cleave while leveling was fine given the vanguard enhancements and low KOTC enhancements.

That said, it illustrated for me the difficulty of coming up with pre-made paths. A lot of decisions hinged on trying to guess what APs a new player might try out and how not to make those decisions appear bad short term but also not be bad long-term. That led to decisions that I think any vet would change in a heart-beat (on top of not being able to multi-class). Which is kind of why vets tend to naturally hate the pre-made paths.

If I'm not mistaken the Enhancement Cleave is not a replacement for the feat!

Therefore having 1 Cleave Feat and 1 Enhancement makes sense as it allows you to use both one after the other!

And with Cleave's cooldown this would be a good thing for a Newbie NOT a bad one!

3 Cleaves seems to be the requirement so you never run out and can keep clicking 1,2,3 so with 2 Enhancement Cleaves Great Cleave would be superfluous but not Cleave itself!

[Paleus]

If I'm not mistaken the Enhancement Cleave is not a replacement for the feat!

Therefore having 1 Cleave Feat and 1 Enhancement makes sense as it allows you to use both one after the other!

And with Cleave's cooldown this would be a good thing for a Newbie NOT a bad one!

3 Cleaves seems to be the requirement so you never run out and can keep clicking 1,2,3 so with 2 Enhancement Cleaves Great Cleave would be superfluous but not Cleave itself!

I would have to check that actually. My understanding from the release notes was that they shared a cool-down. Meaning that if you had both that using one would place the other on cool-down preventing the type of use you describe. If I'm wrong that does open up some potential, but if right it means having both would be redundant except as a pre-req.

[EllisDee37]

If I'm not mistaken the Enhancement Cleave is not a replacement for the feat!

Therefore having 1 Cleave Feat and 1 Enhancement makes sense as it allows you to use both one after the other!You are mistaken!

The Enhancement Cleave is a replacement for the feat!

You can't use both one after the other!

[unbongwah]

If I'm not mistaken the Enhancement Cleave is not a replacement for the feat!
The Cleave feat and the Exalted Cleave enhancement are on a shared cooldown: same with Great Cleave and Avenging Cleave. The only reason to have both is if you planned to use Exalted Cleave but need the feat for Momentum Swing pre-req in LD.

[droid327]

Droid, the reason the races matter is because, as Varg pointed out, the ability points, skill points, and some feats are different depending on races. I agree the builds by race should be as close to each other as possible, but you can't ignore the fact that humans get an extra feat, or half-elves get dilly feats, or drow get a different stat spread. That's all he meant.

Yes of course they do. Most cookie-cutter builds on the forums specify a race. That's why I was asking why you need to have a variation of a build for Every. Single. Race. Just have a path presented for one specific race/class combo; have the race be *part* of the path. There's no need to have "flavor path" options, considering paths are supposed to be well-built and highly playable characters.

[EllisDee37]

Yes of course they do. Most cookie-cutter builds on the forums specify a race. That's why I was asking why you need to have a variation of a build for Every. Single. Race. Just have a path presented for one specific race/class combo; have the race be *part* of the path. There's no need to have "flavor path" options, considering paths are supposed to be well-built and highly playable characters.I find this argument compelling.

As an illustration, is there a default pre-made path for a half-orc wizard? Should there be? I would say there should not.

[Vellrad]

I find this argument compelling.

As an illustration, is there a default pre-made path for a half-orc wizard? Should there be? I would say there should not.

Why not?
Orcs have shamans.
Orc wiz would probably be EK.

[EllisDee37]

Why not?Mainly for the int penalty.

[Standal]

Why not?
Orcs have shamans.
Orc wiz would probably be EK.

The reason why not is to not have 624 paths. Horc wiz is a flavor build. Flavor builds are not for newbies. They need a mainstream build that's easy to gear. I would recommend that HOrcs are funneled into THF melees. Fighter, Barb, and Pally. For Pally, the focus should be KOTC with some Sacred Defender mixed in for PRR/MRR.

I'd really keep it simple and make sure the build is solid.

[bartharok]

The reason why not is to not have 624 paths. Horc wiz is a flavor build. Flavor builds are not for newbies. They need a mainstream build that's easy to gear. I would recommend that HOrcs are funneled into THF melees. Fighter, Barb, and Pally. For Pally, the focus should be KOTC with some Sacred Defender mixed in for PRR/MRR.

I'd really keep it simple and make sure the build is solid.

Too few paths will lock peoples minds into one classtype/race. Which is not good in a game of this kind.

[Steelstar]

As an illustration, is there a default pre-made path for a half-orc wizard? Should there be? I would say there should not.

I've got a first-life Half-Orc Pale Master (20 Wiz, 8 Epic) running Epic Elite right now, if that's worth anything. Wouldn't necessarily recommend that build to a new player, but you can learn a lot between level 1 and 28, and the build holds up fine at low levels.

[patang01]

I've got a first-life Half-Orc Pale Master (20 Wiz, 8 Epic) running Epic Elite right now, if that's worth anything. Wouldn't necessarily recommend that build to a new player, but you can learn a lot between level 1 and 28, and the build holds up fine at low levels.

What would the benefit be over more regular builds?

[FranOhmsford]

The reason why not is to not have 624 paths. Horc wiz is a flavor build. Flavor builds are not for newbies. They need a mainstream build that's easy to gear. I would recommend that HOrcs are funneled into THF melees. Fighter, Barb, and Pally. For Pally, the focus should be KOTC with some Sacred Defender mixed in for PRR/MRR.

I'd really keep it simple and make sure the build is solid.

Wow - When a Newbie comes to DDO they will most likely choose the Class/Race Combo that appeals to them!

Flavour Builds are very specifically a Newbie thing!

And I really don't see how restricting the Pre-Made Paths so that H-Orc Wizard isn't available is going to do anything other than royally aggravate the newbie who's just spent REAL MONEY on buying H-Orc!


P.S. The first H-Orc I made when that Race came out was a WIZARD! {Pre EK so yes he was badly gimped and I eventually used the free Lesser Heart +20 to turn him into a Barb!}.
I didn't want to be like everyone else! I wanted my H-Orc to be different and for 12 levels he was fine {it was only later that I realised he wouldn't make it to 20 as a Wizard!}.


Suggesting Certain Builds as optimal Choices:
- Warforged Sorcerer {Acid Savant}
- Drow Pale Master or Rogue Assassin
- Elf Ranger {Archer}
- Half Orc Barbarian, Fighter or Rogue Acrobat
- Half Elf FvS or Bard
- Halfling Artificer {My Personal Opinion!}
- Human Druid or Paladin
- Dwarf Cleric or Tempest Ranger
Is very different from removing a choice entirely!

[FranOhmsford]

What would the benefit be over more regular builds?

Being able to play the character you want to play!

Rather than being forced into only specific Build Choices {some pretty lore-breaking like H-Orc Acrobats which were everywhere at one point OR on the other hand the fact that it's very rare to see a H-Orc Druid despite the fact that in Eberron Lore they ARE the Druids!}

[Grailhawk]

Being able to play the character you want to play!

Rather than being forced into only specific Build Choices {some pretty lore-breaking like H-Orc Acrobats which were everywhere at one point OR on the other hand the fact that it's very rare to see a H-Orc Druid despite the fact that in Eberron Lore they ARE the Druids!}

Limiting the number of pre-made builds doesn't force a player into any thing the custom button is still there for those who want it.

Limiting the pre made builds to a manageable number and you can get much better builds and that cater to the majority of archetypes that new player will want to play. If the new player is the kind who wants to play a Half-Orc Wizard well that's what the custom option is for. The game shouldn't have to provide a character for every possible combination it just needs a good selection of auto leveling builds for the kind of player that doesn't care to build there own character.

IMO limit the number of pre-made builds down to 39 3 per class (not counting Iconics) that would go really far in helping new players, and I'm sure that with 39 builds most will find one that fits the archetype they are looking for.

[DANTEIL]

The reason why not is to not have 624 paths. Horc wiz is a flavor build. Flavor builds are not for newbies. They need a mainstream build that's easy to gear. I would recommend that HOrcs are funneled into THF melees. Fighter, Barb, and Pally. For Pally, the focus should be KOTC with some Sacred Defender mixed in for PRR/MRR.

I'd really keep it simple and make sure the build is solid.

I agree with this argument. If this is a thing that is going to happen at all, then it clearly cannot be worried about trying to come up with viable combinations for all possible race/class/etc. combinations that a new player might want to play. That's not how the existing paths work, after all. The goal should be to get new players into the game and allow them to advance their character in ways that permit them to keep playing and keep having fun without immediately getting bogged down in the, let's face it, overwhelming choices available in character building. I think the worry about trying to cover all possible bases is a red herring, because if that's really going to be the driving concern, then this is going nowhere.

My personal suggestion would be to decide on 2-3 general utility 'theme-builds' for each class that cover some of the most popular routes through the game (and I would worry mostly about level 1-20), get everyone to agree on those (ha!), and then go from arguing about the details from there. Half-orc wizard is not likely to make that cut, quite frankly.

EDIT: going back and re-reading the Dev input on this idea (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450891-New-pre-made-path-suggestions?p=5463801&viewfull=1#post5463801) about the class/race combinations, I guess I better understand the situation now. So just to re-frame my thoughts keeping this in mind: The goal would still be to identify 2-3 popular paths for each class, but then, in considering the details of each path, determine the specific ability points/feat choices that are constrained by race, and then work out those paths accordingly. For some classes, some paths will be pretty much the same across races; others will require more differentiation. And yes, some may be sub-optimal from an expert player point of view, but if the Dev goal is comprehensiveness, then that might just have to be accepted -- I'm sure creative build-experts here can find ways to turn sub-optimality into something viable.

[FranOhmsford]

Limiting the number of pre-made builds doesn't force a player into any thing the custom button is still there for those who want it.

So your answer to newbies who want flavour is they must be capable of building that flavour themselves right from the start?

Customizing is supposed to be for Vets - The Pre-Made Paths are supposed to be for Newbies!


Limiting the pre made builds to a manageable number and you can get much better builds and that cater to the majority of archetypes that new player will want to play. If the new player is the kind who wants to play a Half-Orc Wizard well that's what the custom option is for. The game shouldn't have to provide a character for every possible combination it just needs a good selection of auto leveling builds for the kind of player that doesn't care to build there own character.

IMO limit the number of pre-made builds down to 39 3 per class (not counting Iconics) that would go really far in helping new players, and I'm sure that with 39 builds most will find one that fits the archetype they are looking for.

There are 3 Pre-Mades for each Class - No one's said there should be more than that!

Different Races however have different requirements and the Devs have stated that each race needs to have it's 3 pre-mades per class too!

Now - Many of those won't require too much change from the base Human Build. For instance:
Dwarf Fighters get D-Axe free so won't need the Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword Feat!
Elf Paladins will have exactly the same Feats as Human Paladins minus one!

And Pre-Made Builds DON'T count Enhancements!
So there really isn't that much to do - The Stats are OK, The Skill choices are in the main doable {maybe Caster Pre-Mades will need to be redone to count Spellcraft if that change hasn't been done already.}.
It's really only the Feat Choices that are the big issue with Pre-Made Builds as they stand!

[FranOhmsford]

Half Orc Eldritch Knight

Int 16, Str 16, Con 14
+1 Str at Lvl 4

Lvl 1 - Extend Spell, Power Attack
Lvl 3 - Cleave {to use alongside Eldritch Strike}
Lvl 5 - Maximize Spell
Lvl 6 - Insightful Reflexes {to allow Dex to be Dumped}.

Emphasise later Feats: Quicken, Heighten, Improved Crit

Human Eldritch Knight

Int 18, Str 14, Con 14 +1 Int at Lvl 4
or
Int 16, Str 16, Con 14 +1 Str at Lvl 4

Exactly the same except add Mental Toughness as the Human Bonus Feat

[FranOhmsford]

I agree with this argument. If this is a thing that is going to happen at all, then it clearly cannot be worried about trying to come up with viable combinations for all possible race/class/etc. combinations that a new player might want to play. That's not how the existing paths work, after all. The goal should be to get new players into the game and allow them to advance their character in ways that permit them to keep playing and keep having fun without immediately getting bogged down in the, let's face it, overwhelming choices available in character building. I think the worry about trying to cover all possible bases is a red herring, because if that's really going to be the driving concern, then this is going nowhere.

My personal suggestion would be to decide on 2-3 general utility 'theme-builds' for each class that cover some of the most popular routes through the game (and I would worry mostly about level 1-20), get everyone to agree on those (ha!), and then go from arguing about the details from there. Half-orc wizard is not likely to make that cut, quite frankly.

We're talking BASE Class/Race Combos here NOT Specific Flavour Builds like Staff Kensai or Monkcher or Shuriken Specialist or a Myriad others!

H-Orc Wizard should have it's 3 choices just like Human Wizard or Halfling Wizard!

And frankly those choices aren't going to be all that different!

Again - Enhancements aren't part of this - Enhancements aren't chosen by the Pre-Made Builds!

Stats are OK as is
Skill choices may need updating to account for Spellcraft on Casters.

BUT the Main issue with the Pre-Made Builds is the Feats as they're outdated now the game has changed so much!

[Grailhawk]

So your answer to newbies who want flavour is they must be capable of building that flavour themselves right from the start?

Customizing is supposed to be for Vets - The Pre-Made Paths are supposed to be for Newbies!



There are 3 Pre-Mades for each Class - No one's said there should be more than that!

Different Races however have different requirements and the Devs have stated that each race needs to have it's 3 pre-mades per class too!

Now - Many of those won't require too much change from the base Human Build. For instance:
Dwarf Fighters get D-Axe free so won't need the Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword Feat!
Elf Paladins will have exactly the same Feats as Human Paladins minus one!

And Pre-Made Builds DON'T count Enhancements!
So there really isn't that much to do - The Stats are OK, The Skill choices are in the main doable {maybe Caster Pre-Mades will need to be redone to count Spellcraft if that change hasn't been done already.}.
It's really only the Feat Choices that are the big issue with Pre-Made Builds as they stand!

With 39 pre made builds that make class and race choice for you there will be enough flavor for those who do not want to take the time and try and build there own character. Anyone who wants to build there own character can build there own character good or bad that's just how it is the developers should not have to hold every one's hands while they learn the game. Yes I am saying that if they want a flavor that is not supported by one of the 39 build options they will need to build it themselves. 39 Is more builds then any other game I've ever played supported so really I don't see any problem with it and the guys who are coming for D&D well they are used to only having so many pre-made options before having to build there own character

Vargouille said in the second post of this thread that there are "624 distinct paths" given all the variables that must be accounted for. I'm saying remove the racial freedom and drop that number down to 39 so that its more manageable and can be easily maintained in order to keep the quality of those 39 builds much higher then the poor quality we have now. (and yes since I dont think they can drop support for 28 vs 32 point builds that actually means there are 78 paths total in my proposal).

[UurlockYgmeov]

I've got a first-life Half-Orc Pale Master (20 Wiz, 8 Epic) running Epic Elite right now, if that's worth anything. Wouldn't necessarily recommend that build to a new player, but you can learn a lot between level 1 and 28, and the build holds up fine at low levels.

Learn allot just by running a character. Can always start over. :D

[Braegan]

Starting with an easier one for FvS:

Stats

Human: 8/8/12/10/18/14 - 28 pt | 8/10/14/10/18/14 - 32 pt
Elf: 8/10/10/10/18/14 - 28 pt | 8/12/12/10/18/14 - 32 pt
Halfling: 6/10/12/10/18/14 - 28 pt | 8/10/14/10/18/14 - 32 pt
Dwarf: 8/8/10/10/18/14 - 28 pt | 8/8/14/10/18/14 - 32 pt
Warforged: 8/8/10/10/16/14 28 pt | 8/8/14/10/16/14 - 32 pt
Half-Elf: 8/8/12/10/18/14 - 28 pt | 8/10/14/10/18/14 - 32 pt
Drow Elf: 8/12/12/10/18/14 - 28 pt
Half Orc: 10/8/12/10/16/14 - 28 pt | 10/10/14/10/16/14 - 32 pt

All builds raise Wisdom on every Level Up.

Skills

Concentration
Spellcraft

- Humans add Diplomacy

Feats

1) Empower
3) SF: Evocation
6) Maximize
9) Heighten
12) Quicken
15) Spell Pen
18) GSF: Evocation

- Humans add Mental Toughness
- Half-Elves add Paladin Dilettante

Spells Selected

1st) Cure Light Wounds, Nightshield, Nimbus of Light, Remove Fear
2nd) Resist Energy, Cure Moderate Wounds, Soundburst, Spawn Screen
3rd) Magic Circle against Evil, Prayer, Remove Curse, Searing Light
4th) Cure Critical Wounds, Freedom of Movement, Deathward, Holy Smite
5th) Greater Command, Divine Punishment, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Raise Dead
6th) Blade Barrier, Heal, Cometfall
7th) Destruction, Mass Protection from Elements, Symbol of Stunning
8th) Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Death Pact, Fire Storm
9th) Implosion, Energy Drain, Mass Heal

Comments to make this more newbie friendly are welcome.

Divine Avenger will be trickier due to being pure and not the best weapon selection for all races. Currently they all seem to focus on near dump con, twfing with favored weapons. I'd rather recommend a new player to go S&B with a couple points in con rather then how thin the current paths are spread. But, I'll think about it some more and post ideas for that path when I have something more concrete.

[Vellrad]

Divine Avenger will be trickier due to being pure and not the best weapon selection for all races. Currently they all seem to focus on near dump con, twfing with favored weapons. I'd rather recommend a new player to go S&B with a couple points in con rather then how thin the current paths are spread. But, I'll think about it some more and post ideas for that path when I have something more concrete.

I think SWF should be better for newb fvs/cleric- they can equip orb helping with casting and SWF feats are better than shield ones (if you take just 1 set).

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Flavour Builds are very specifically a Newbie thing!

I rather resent that implication. And vehemently deny the very idea behind it.

[Ralmeth]

Here are my thoughts on a S&B Paladin for the basic races, which I think would work well for a new player.

Paladin - The Mighty Protector Pre-Made Paths for Basic Races

Human - recommended
Starting Stats (28 & 32pt)
Str: 16 - All level ups into strength
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Char: 14 (28 pt version) / 16 (32 pt version)

Elf
Starting Stats (28 & 32pt)
Str: 16 - All level ups into strength
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Char: 14 (28 pt version) / 16 (32 pt version)

Dwarf
Starting Stats (28 & 32pt)
Str: 16 - All level ups into strength
Dex: 8
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Char: 12 (28 pt version) / 14 (32 pt version)

Halfling
Starting Stats (28 & 32pt)
Str: 14 - All level ups into strength
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Char: 14 (28 pt version) / 16 (32 pt version)

Skills - Human:
Max Intim, Concentration, Heal
Balance for lvls 1-10, Jump for 11-20

Skills - Elf, Dwarf, Halfling:
Max Intim, Concentration
Balance for lvls 1-10, Heal for 11-20

Feat Progression - Human:
Human: Shield Mastery
1st: Improved Shield Bashing
3rd: Power Attack
6th: Tower Shield
9th: Improved Crit - Slashing
12th: Improved Shield Mastery
15th: Stunning Blow
18th: Quicken

Feat Progression - Elf, Dwarf, Halfling:
1st: Improved Shield Bashing
3rd: Power Attack
6th: Shield Mastery
9th: Improved Crit - Slashing
12th: Improved Shield Mastery
15th: Tower Shield
18th: Quicken

[Munkenmo]

Does this mean that pre made builds are a barrier that contributes to the prevention of new races?

Personally Im in favor of pre made path builds lock a player into a racial choice. The pre mades are out of date and obviously require too much work in their current state.

Itll be a bit of work in the short term to change the pre mades, but it's obviously a more economic position for devs and more optimal for players going forwards, especially if it lowers the development effort into gnomes and assimars.

[EllisDee37]

In the interest of just figuring out which race+class combinations would be included in an "ideal" path system, what are we thinking? At the very least there needs to be a completely F2P race for every path, otherwise a brand new player just checking the game out won't be able to run certain paths, and that would be contrary to the concept of paths in the first place. Let's say three racial choices per path, with a bare minimum of one totally F2P race in that three. So I could see something like...

Wizard
Pale Master: Drow, Human, Elf
Archmage: Warforged, Drow, Human
Eldritch Knight: Warforged, Human, Elf

Cleric
Divine Disciple: Human, Dwarf, Elf
Warpriest: Dwarf, Human, Half-Orc
Radiant Servant: Halfling, Human, Dwarf

etc...

Is this a workable idea?

[FranOhmsford]

I rather resent that implication. And vehemently deny the very idea behind it.

Please try to understand the context in which something is written before getting all upset!

I was replying to someone else's statement that Newbies shouldn't be allowed to build for Flavour!

I never stated that Vets don't like to Play Flavour Builds!
In fact I've stated very clearly on many occasions that Flavour is one of the main reasons I play this game!
I even stated in the post you quoted that my 1st H-Orc was a WIZARD!

I was very careful to state that this was because many newbies come to DDO {and most probably other MMOs} with a good idea of what type of character they want to play!

They may not however want to jump straight into customising said character and that's why the Pre-Made Builds need to be available for ALL the base Race/Class Combos!

NOT for Multiclass Builds like Monkchers or Clonks!
NOT for every possible Kensei Weapon Build!
NOT for all 6/7 Archmage Specializations!
NOT for Greatsword Wielding Rangers!

But at least for each Race/Class Combo - Never mind whether H-Orc Wizard isn't the strongest build out there!

[Nascoe]

Limiting the number of pre-made builds doesn't force a player into any thing the custom button is still there for those who want it.

Limiting the pre made builds to a manageable number and you can get much better builds and that cater to the majority of archetypes that new player will want to play. If the new player is the kind who wants to play a Half-Orc Wizard well that's what the custom option is for. The game shouldn't have to provide a character for every possible combination it just needs a good selection of auto leveling builds for the kind of player that doesn't care to build there own character.

IMO limit the number of pre-made builds down to 39 3 per class (not counting Iconics) that would go really far in helping new players, and I'm sure that with 39 builds most will find one that fits the archetype they are looking for.

Yes, I think I actually agree with a more limited number of "path builds" to builds that help a player starting out in a class get familiar with the class / game enough to then be able to start and customize to make something that is more of their own flavour. Either you choose a path that should help you to avoid some choices that make your character harder to play the game with or decide you want to have a go at making a better/more interesting one yourself.

I would think those path builds should only have the standard f2p races though, because if you would have say a WF wizard or a drow assasin then a player who doesn't have those unlocked/bought would be shut out. So we would probably go for things like a Dwarven Barbarian, a Halfling Rogue, a human wizard an elf ranger, etc.

[Nascoe]

With 39 pre made builds that make class and race choice for you there will be enough flavor for those who do not want to take the time and try and build there own character. Anyone who wants to build there own character can build there own character good or bad that's just how it is the developers should not have to hold every one's hands while they learn the game. Yes I am saying that if they want a flavor that is not supported by one of the 39 build options they will need to build it themselves. 39 Is more builds then any other game I've ever played supported so really I don't see any problem with it and the guys who are coming for D&D well they are used to only having so many pre-made options before having to build there own character

Vargouille said in the second post of this thread that there are "624 distinct paths" given all the variables that must be accounted for. I'm saying remove the racial freedom and drop that number down to 39 so that its more manageable and can be easily maintained in order to keep the quality of those 39 builds much higher then the poor quality we have now. (and yes since I dont think they can drop support for 28 vs 32 point builds that actually means there are 78 paths total in my proposal).

We don't need them to now introduce standardised paths for 32 point builds. Currently they aren't in there either, if you want to create a 32 point character, you have to use the option to customize already. I see no need to change that

[RapkintheRanger]

Part of the problems with pre-made paths is not that they are sub-optimal, it is that they don't really teach you how to build a character. There are a lot of things to think about and they require you to, well, think about them. The amount of work required for the game to make suggestions seems overwhelming to me, but maybe an explanation of what you are getting and why, as you level up with a premade build, would help players understand what it is that they should think about then we might bet better at making those decisions...

[droid327]

I've got a first-life Half-Orc Pale Master (20 Wiz, 8 Epic) ... Wouldn't necessarily recommend that build to a new player...

Which negates the whole purpose of Paths, which is to provide a viable 1-20 character so that new players don't build themselves into a corner with an inviable flavor build, have no fun, and quit the game :)

No one's saying that there isn't a place for flavor builds. Just that the idea of Paths should be tailored to maximizing the game experience. Once they've learned the basics in a "starter" char, they're equipped to make their own decisions about subsequent alts/lives and build more specialized or flavor characters.

[FranOhmsford]

Which negates the whole purpose of Paths, which is to provide a viable 1-20 character so that new players don't build themselves into a corner with an inviable flavor build, have no fun, and quit the game :)

No!

The actual POINT of a Pre-Made Character is to allow Newbies to Jump straight into the game without having to worry about their Build!

Hardly anyone remains on a Pre-Made path past about Lvl 5 {Most will leave the path at Lvl 2 or 3!}.

Rather than wasting Dev effort building paths that are viable at Lvl 20 {or 28!} it would be far better for the Devs to create Lvl 1-6 Paths to continue to allow Newbies to jump straight into the game!
At Lvl 7 the Trainer would tell you that from this point on you have to choose your own Path!

[DANTEIL]

To return to the idea of a Half-orc Wizard for a moment...

Just out of curiosity, last night I made a new Half-Orc wizard/necromancer and started as a Level 4 veteran. I am in no way a build expert, but most of the feat choices (not that you have all that many at level 4) seemed okay to me - I was surprised, for example, to see Augment Summoning there, which is something that is probably more useful for a necromancer build than most.

One thing I noticed, though, was that some of the the Skills choices are kind of weird. In addition to Concentration and Spellcraft (which, okay), there were also half-points going into Hide and Move Silently. Why??

[FranOhmsford]

To return to the idea of a Half-orc Wizard for a moment...

Just out of curiosity, last night I made a new Half-Orc wizard/necromancer and started as a Level 4 veteran. I am in no way a build expert, but most of the feat choices (not that you have all that many at level 4) seemed okay to me - I was surprised, for example, to see Augment Summoning there, which is something that is probably more useful for a necromancer build than most.

One thing I noticed, though, was that some of the the Skills choices are kind of weird. In addition to Concentration and Spellcraft (which, okay), there were also half-points going into Hide and Move Silently. Why??

I can understand MS as it helps with Invisibility but I'd have thought Hide is pretty pointless {Half Point in UMD would be a better choice}.

[EllisDee37]

Wizard
Pale Master: Drow, Human, Elf
Archmage: Warforged, Drow, Human
Eldritch Knight: Warforged, Human, ElfRan into my second major stumbling block with the wizards, specifically, eldritch knight. I can't in good conscience set someone up to play an eldritch knight without the harper tree. So what should the totally F2P version of an eldritch knight be? Strength-based? That strikes me as a terrible idea, to make the (only) eldritch knight path be strength-based.

The first stumbling block was that my concept of normalizing the skill points between races so that the skills are the same for every race falls apart with wizard, because each race will max their int (at least for caster wizards) and thus you end up with three different skill point amounts: drow/human, half-orc, and everyone else.

[Grace_ana]

Wow, I walk away for a few days and...

I really don't want the argument over whether premade builds should be only a few races or all races here. If you want to start another thread on that elsewhere, fine by me. But I did set out the rules of the builds specifically in the OP. If you don't like it, that's cool, I'm no dictator, but I don't want a meat and potatoes thread to be derailed by a seasoning discussion. I realize forum threads take on lives of their own, so I'm asking nicely :)

As far as my personal opinion, I think it's kinda silly anyway. You're arguing over the "best" race for a new player learning the game and working with a 28 point build and no tomes. The minor differences between the races will pale in comparison. Frankly, it just doesn't matter.

The question of whether a premade should go all the way to level 20 is also aside from the OP, so same request please.

Anyway, thanks to those that have put up builds, and please keep contributing to the original purpose of the thread.

EDIT: I wanted to add that I think some people are getting hung up because they wouldn't recommend a certain race. That's understandable, but that isn't what a premade build is. It isn't a suggested optimal build; it's a workable, flexible build so that anyone can get up and running in DDO with a minimum of hassle and knowledge and still be able to function as a new player. Most new players will not be trying to solo elites at level with a premade path. Perhaps a discussion in another thread may decide that when a player chooses a path, the game recommends particular races (I think it already does, IIRC). But if someone signs up with an idea in their head that they think playing a halfling barbarian would be the coolest thing ever, they will get frustrated if there is no such option and quit right from the start. It's better to allow people choices and simply optimize those choices as much as possible. So don't be so concerned about what you personally would recommend - people gotta play what they want. It won't even be the end of the world or anything.)

[droid327]

No!

The actual POINT of a Pre-Made Character is to allow Newbies to Jump straight into the game without having to worry about their Build!

Hardly anyone remains on a Pre-Made path past about Lvl 5 {Most will leave the path at Lvl 2 or 3!}.

Rather than wasting Dev effort building paths that are viable at Lvl 20 {or 28!} it would be far better for the Devs to create Lvl 1-6 Paths to continue to allow Newbies to jump straight into the game!
At Lvl 7 the Trainer would tell you that from this point on you have to choose your own Path!

Nohohooooo no no no that's a very bad idea. The game at L20 is not at all comparable to the game at L7, you know that. Taking the training wheels off at L7 and saying "OK you get the idea, you know enough to make your own viable choices from here on out" is a recipe for people ragequitting at L16-18 when they cant solo Reavers or Vale. At L7 you have *no* idea yet about how important building for things like saves/DCs, healing, deathblock, etc. will be later in the game.

Even vets will build alts using builds posted on the forum that span 1-20 or 1-28. Its not like anyone posts a build on the forum that goes 1-7 and then just says "and you see where this is going, fill in the rest".

Its not a big deal to design a viable build from 1-20. People do it on the forums all the time. You could just literally cut and past the dozen or so of the best, most time-tested builds and use those as your Paths to start off.

[TeacherSyn]

I think I see the idea that Grace has asked.

First off, I'm terrible at using the character creation tools. It's not a criticism against them. I just enjoy building characters more organically. And so I'm going to let this post go quite existential for my favorite class: the Monk.

In my guide I claim that a completely naked Monk can still be a very dangerous character. Now does that idea still hold some merit even without the enhancements? Let's break it down.

First off, going Human gives you an extra feat, has no immediate weaknesses, offers healing amplification, versatility for skill/action boosts and adaptability for greater ability scores.

I haven't access to a character builder at this moment to properly allocate points for a 28 or 32 point build. But, starting out, this Human should have 16 STR and 16 WIS if possible to start off. STR determines unarmed damage and WIS defines the mystical powers of a Monk, particularly Stunning Fist and other finishing moves, as well as ki retention.

From here, train the Two Weapon Fighting chain, Dodge and Mobility, and Improved Critical: Bludgeoning. And the Monk still comes out quite dangerous without 1 Action Point anywhere.


Granted fighting stances that allow dynamic adjustments to ability scores, skills and saves
Finishing moves that buff, heal, destroy fortification or cause paralysis, nausea, or blindness
Spell resistance as a natural anti-mage
Eventual immunity from natural poisons and disease
High saving throws (only Paladins do better)
Strikes as a Magic. Lawful and Adamantine weapon while unarmed over time
High movement and attack speed
Self-healing between battles
Naturally stealthy to avoid fighting
Gains natural AC bonuses and special bonuses from stances


In short, a level 20 Human Monk needs only a pair of metalline handwraps and they'd still be likely to dominate many areas while in the buff. While being a Shintao Monk would complete this picture, a Human Monk template already gains everything they need to play. The gear simply augments what's already there.

And thanks, Grace. You've given me a terrifyingly awesome idea to see how well a Monk can work through endgame, without a virtual stitch on and without a single enhancement. Talk is cheap, right? :)

[karatemack]

This 28-pt build focuses on providing the new player with the ability to heal, manage aggro and try their hand at DC casting at lower levels. I invested in INT so they could get a decent diplo score to help (diplo should be added to their starting hot bar).

The stat spread in the build is designed for Humans, below is how I would alter the build for each of the other races:

Elf 8/10/12/10/18/12 (drop diplo and drop greater spell pen)
Halfling 8/10/12/10/18/12 (drop diplo and drop greater spell pen)
Dwarf 8/8/14/10/18/12 (drop diplo and greater spell pen)
Warforged 8/8/14/10/16/12 (drop diplo and greater spell pen)
Half-Elf 8/8/12/12/18/12 (drop greater spell pen)
Drow Elf 8/10/12/12/18/14 (drop greater spell pen)
Half-Orc 10/8/14/10/18/8 (drop diplo and greater spell pen)



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

The Font of Healing
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Cleric)
Hit Points: 240
Spell Points: 1379
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 18

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 18 23
Charisma 12 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 -1
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy 5 24
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 1
Heal 8 29
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 1 1
Jump -1 -1
Listen 4 6
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 0
Spellcraft 4 23
Spot 4 6
Swim -1 -1
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Human Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 2 (Cleric)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 4 (Cleric)


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Cleric)


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)




32-pt build tweaks as follows:

Human 8/8/14/12/18/14
Elf 8/10/12/12/18/14 (drop greater spell pen)
Halfling 8/10/14/12/18/12 (drop greater spell pen)
Dwarf 8/8/16/12/18/12 (drop greater spell pen)
Warforged 8/8/16/12/16/12 (drop greater spell pen)
Half-Elf 8/8/14/12/18/14 (drop greater spell pen)
Drow Elf 8/10/12/12/18/14 (drop greater spell pen)
Half-Orc 10/8/12/12/18/12 (drop greater spell pen)

[karatemack]

This 28-pt build focuses on providing the new player with the ability to turn undead, heal and focuses on evo DCs rather than Necro (since implosion works wonders against undead things once they're high enough level to cast it). I dropped diplo altogether and instead focused on heal/spellcraft. I personally feel that I would take spellcraft over heal, however chose to drop spellcraft in favor of heal for the premade build whenever necessary. I made this choice because I believe that overall the newer player would benefit more from the boost to auras/healing spells than they would from extra damage from their light spells. For the extra human feat I favored empower however the argument could be made for spell pen here as well. I chose to invest a few stat points in strength in this build mainly because the cleric who turns often finds themselves surrounded by the undead. Wraiths and other undead creatures have a habit of draining str which can quickly lead to being burdened/incapacitated.

The stat spread in the build is designed for Humans, below is how I would alter the build for each of the other races:

Elf 10/10/10/10/16/16 (drop empower)
Halfling 8/10/12/10/16/16 (drop empower)
Dwarf 8/8/10/10/16/16 (drop empower)
Warforged 8/8/10/10/16/14 (drop empower)
Half-Elf 10/8/12/10/16/16 (drop empower)
Drow Elf 10/10/12/10/16/18 (drop empower)
Half-Orc 10/8/12/10/16/14 (drop empower)



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Scourge of the Undead
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Cleric)
Hit Points: 220
Spell Points: 1350
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 5
Will: 17

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 12 12
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 16 21
Charisma 16 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 -1
Bluff 3 3
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 3 8
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 3
Heal 7 28
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 3 3
Jump 1 1
Listen 3 5
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spellcraft 3 17
Spot 3 5
Swim 1 1
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Human Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 2 (Cleric)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Turning


Level 4 (Cleric)


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 16 (Cleric)


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)




32-pt build tweaks as follows:

Human 10/8/12/8/18/16
Elf 12/10/12/10/16/16 (drop empower)
Halfling 12/10/12/10/16/16 (drop empower)
Dwarf 14/8/14/10/16/14 (drop empower)
Warforged 14/8/14/10/14/14 (drop empower)(I struggled with this one, in the end I left the pts in str and con)
Half-Elf 12/8/14/10/16/16 (drop empower)
Drow Elf 10/10/12/10/16/18 (drop empower)
Half-Orc 12/8/14/10/16/14 (drop empower)

[FranOhmsford]

Nohohooooo no no no that's a very bad idea. The game at L20 is not at all comparable to the game at L7, you know that. Taking the training wheels off at L7 and saying "OK you get the idea, you know enough to make your own viable choices from here on out" is a recipe for people ragequitting at L16-18 when they cant solo Reavers or Vale. At L7 you have *no* idea yet about how important building for things like saves/DCs, healing, deathblock, etc. will be later in the game.

How many people have you seen take Pre-Made Builds all the way to 20?

I'd estimate that the number is in Single Figures!

The vast majority of players will start customizing BEFORE Lvl 7 anyway! {Many as early as Lvl 2-3!}.

The idea of Pre-Made Builds is to get you into the game and actually playing it fast rather than having to figure out how to build your character BEFORE you can play!


Even vets will build alts using builds posted on the forum that span 1-20 or 1-28. Its not like anyone posts a build on the forum that goes 1-7 and then just says "and you see where this is going, fill in the rest".

Take away the word "Even" and that point will make sense!

Builds posted on these forums are by Vets for Vets!
Many are dependant on Gear, Game Knowledge and even Past Lives!


Its not a big deal to design a viable build from 1-20. People do it on the forums all the time. You could just literally cut and past the dozen or so of the best, most time-tested builds and use those as your Paths to start off.

Again - Gear, Game Knowledge, Past Lives!

Pre-Made's are there to allow players to jump straight in without faffing around!

They should be aimed at the Low Level Player NOT at the Capped Vet!

And I have stated that certain Feats should be "emphasised" as the ones to take once you start customising at Lvl 7 - Make sure the New Player who leaves the Path cannot immediately mess up {Unless he/she wants to that is!}.

[karatemack]

How many people have you seen take Pre-Made Builds all the way to 20?

I'd estimate that the number is in Single Figures!

The vast majority of players will start customizing BEFORE Lvl 7 anyway! {Many as early as Lvl 2-3!}.

The idea of Pre-Made Builds is to get you into the game and actually playing it fast rather than having to figure out how to build your character BEFORE you can play!


As you correctly point out, newer players can leave the pre-made paths whenever they feel it is appropriate for them. They can take their own "training wheels" off whenever they feel they have a handle on the game. Your point here is moot.

Also, what builds would you suggest? As the OP pointed out, this thread isn't designed for chatter about whether or not this should/should not happen, but rather is a place where people can post build ideas for new pre-made paths. What do you have to contribute?

[FranOhmsford]

As you correctly point out, newer players can leave the pre-made paths whenever they feel it is appropriate for them. They can take their own "training wheels" off whenever they feel they have a handle on the game. Your point here is moot.

Also, what builds would you suggest? As the OP pointed out, this thread isn't designed for chatter about whether or not this should/should not happen, but rather is a place where people can post build ideas for new pre-made paths. What do you have to contribute?


As I've stated and you've now agreed - Most people leave the Pre-Mades way before Lvl 7 anyway - There's literally no point on the Devs part wasting the effort to make Pre-Mades that go all the way to Lvl 20 when making ones that go only to Lvl 6 would be far simpler and QUICKER!

As for Player Made Builds - It was quite obvious that this thread was going to turn into a competition - I feel it would be more advantageous if we could agree on simple builds for newbies who want to jump straight into the game rather than faffing around with Character Creation that that personality of Newbie won't understand properly anyway!


No matter what a Lvl 20 Build on a Pre-Made Character will stand and fall on its gear!
And no Vet is gonna use a Pre-Made Build no matter how good!

Pre-Made Builds are Pure Class ONLY and as soon as you multi-class you leave the Path!

There's literally no point creating Pre-Made Builds with Lvl 20 in mind!


On the other hand - Providing a list of recommended Feats for Newbies after Lvl 6 is something I feel should be looked at for each Build.
I'm NOT saying to just leave them to it after Lvl 6!

Say the Devs change the Stalwart Fighter Pre-Made to:

Human
Lvl 1 - Power Attack, Cleave, Shield Mastery
Lvl 2 - Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword
Lvl 3 - THF
Lvl 4 - Great Cleave
Lvl 6 - Improved THF, Improved Shield Bash

Dwarf - Move Shield Mastery to Lvl 2 {D-Axe is Free so no need for B-Sword}

Elf, Halfling, H-Orc, H-Elf, Warforged
Lvl 1 - Power Attack, Cleave
Lvl 2 - Shield Mastery
Lvl 3 - Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword
Lvl 4 - THF
Lvl 6 - Great Cleave, Improved THF

They could then recommend:
Greater THF, Improved Crit: Slashing, Improved Shield Mastery and {for the races that don't get it at Lvl 6} Imp. Shield Bash.
There's other Feats they could recommend but leave some leeway for the Newbie to actually make choices!

[DANTEIL]

There's literally no point on the Devs part wasting the effort to make Pre-Mades that go all the way to Lvl 20 when making ones that go only to Lvl 6 would be far simpler and QUICKER!

There's literally no point creating Pre-Made Builds with Lvl 20 in mind!

The argument for making the pre-made paths go all the way to level 20 is the SAME argument that is being made for why have a specific pre-made path for each combination of race/class/specialization. Because these pre-made paths have to be comprehensive enough to cover what a newer player might want to do. And a newer player might actually want to keep following the path to 20 (because it's easier, because they have been enjoying it so far, because they don't want to screw it up, because they hate decisions, etc.), just like a newer player might want to make a half-orc wizard.

Yes, of course it seems easier to only make paths go to level 6 or 7, but in my opinion that would almost be worse because then you would be cutting the player loose just before the point in the leveling process where the build really starts to matter in game. Even if you warn them beforehand -- so players know they can only take this to level 6 -- then what is the trainer going to say at that point? "You have learned much along your journey as a < > so far. There is much more to experience, but you'll have to figure it out on your own like all of the other players have. Good luck! <End Dialogue>" How would you communicate these 'beyond level 6 feats' to the newer player? Flag them somehow in the Feats listing? If so, then why not just make the path continue? This idea may seem like an 'easier' solution but it is actually a more radical change to how things work now.

[FranOhmsford]

The argument for making the pre-made paths go all the way to level 20 is the SAME argument that is being made for why have a specific pre-made path for each combination of race/class/specialization. Because these pre-made paths have to be comprehensive enough to cover what a newer player might want to do. And a newer player might actually want to keep following the path to 20 (because it's easier, because they have been enjoying it so far, because they don't want to screw it up, because they hate decisions, etc.), just like a newer player might want to make a half-orc wizard.

A Newbie who is that disinterested in the game that they can't be bothered with any sort of Character Creation whatsoever?

And you think this person is going to keep playing past about Lvl 5 anyway?



Yes, of course it seems easier to only make paths go to level 6 or 7, but in my opinion that would almost be worse because then you would be cutting the player loose just before the point in the leveling process where the build really starts to matter in game. Even if you warn them beforehand -- so players know they can only take this to level 6 -- then what is the trainer going to say at that point? "You have learned much along your journey as a < > so far. There is much more to experience, but you'll have to figure it out on your own like all of the other players have. Good luck! <End Dialogue>" How would you communicate these 'beyond level 6 feats' to the newer player? Flag them somehow in the Feats listing? If so, then why not just make the path continue? This idea may seem like an 'easier' solution but it is actually a more radical change to how things work now.

I'd have the Trainer make recommendations as you customise {IF you started on a Pre-Made!} - NPC dialogue!

And frankly yes:
"You have learned much along your journey as a < > so far. There is much more to experience, but you'll have to figure it out on your own....I can offer some suggestions however"
Sounds pretty good to me.

Rather than giving the Newbie the hard choice of Stay on the Path or Do it Yourself!

[karatemack]

You might want to read back through the thread before making attacks!

Disagreeing with you is not attacking you!

The OP has communicated the point of this thread! Multiple times! Perhaps you should start another to discuss whether or not pre-made builds should level 1-20 or only 1-7. What do you want to contribute to THIS conversation?


As I've stated and you've now agreed - Most people leave the Pre-Mades way before Lvl 7 anyway -

I agreed that players can leave the pre-made paths whenever they choose based upon their comfort level with the game. I see no valid reason to limit their freedom to choose to remain on the path (through 20) or leave the path (at any time).


As for Player Made Builds - It was quite obvious that this thread was going to turn into a competition - I feel it would be more advantageous if we could agree on simple builds for newbies who want to jump straight into the game rather than faffing around with Character Creation that that personality of Newbie won't understand properly anyway!

Some would argue that "faffing around with Character Creation that that personality of Newbie won't understand properly" is the entire point of pre-made builds!


No matter what a Lvl 20 Build on a Pre-Made Character will stand and fall on its gear!

I play my wizard (who still has his abishai set on I believe) in EN and he does just fine. A properly built toon holds up just fine in normal content.


And no Vet is gonna use a Pre-Made Build no matter how good!

I would utilize them as I introduce newer players to the game. I love that DDO is so complex and has such a rich character customization process. That said, few people want to read ddowiki for 50 hours before creating a character. The beauty of this thread is that it allows you, the vet, to help out every new player who wants to dive in with a decent build. What can you contribute to that cause?


Pre-Made Builds are Pure Class ONLY and as soon as you multi-class you leave the Path!

And you do so when you choose to!


There's literally no point creating Pre-Made Builds with Lvl 20 in mind!

It's been pointed out to you multiple times that debating this is NOT the point of this thread! Start a new thread for this discussion!


On the other hand - Providing a list of recommended Feats for Newbies after Lvl 6 is something I feel should be looked at for each Build.
I'm NOT saying to just leave them to it after Lvl 6!

Say the Devs change the Stalwart Fighter Pre-Made to:

Human
Lvl 1 - Power Attack, Cleave, Shield Mastery
Lvl 2 - Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword
Lvl 3 - THF
Lvl 4 - Great Cleave
Lvl 6 - Improved THF, Improved Shield Bash

Dwarf - Move Shield Mastery to Lvl 2 {D-Axe is Free so no need for B-Sword}

Elf, Halfling, H-Orc, H-Elf, Warforged
Lvl 1 - Power Attack, Cleave
Lvl 2 - Shield Mastery
Lvl 3 - Exotic Wpn Prof: B-Sword
Lvl 4 - THF
Lvl 6 - Great Cleave, Improved THF

They could then recommend:
Greater THF, Improved Crit: Slashing, Improved Shield Mastery and {for the races that don't get it at Lvl 6} Imp. Shield Bash.
There's other Feats they could recommend but leave some leeway for the Newbie to actually make choices!

I would love to comment on your idea once you open a thread appropriate to this topic so we can discuss further.

[Grace_ana]

I'm working on getting the build suggestions fleshed out and into a spreadsheet. So far I have monk, rogue, and cleric entered, and I will work on sorc and FVS later today. I really appreciate everyone that contributed with builds! Keep 'em coming!

FWIW, I took some of the premade paths up to lvl 7 last night to check their choices. Holy mother of pearl. Mechanic isn't ranged, assassin is still built for when rogues typically dual-wielded rapiers, and henshin is just a hodgepodge. I cannot emphasize enough how much they need an overhaul.

**I don't at all mind, and in fact encourage, constructive comments on the builds themselves. However, off-topic or rude behavior should go elsewhere.

[Grailhawk]

Ranger Tempest/Stalker Paths
28 Point Builds

Human
STR 16 Level Ups here
CON 14
DEX 16
INT 08
WIS 10
CHA 08

Unadjusted Stats for race
Human and all unlisted 16/14/16/08/10/08
Elf and Drow: 16/16/14/08/10/08
Halfling: 18/14/14/08/08/08

HBF: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
L01: Precision
L03: Dodge
L06: Point Blank Shot
L09: IC: Slashing
L12: IC: Ranged
L15: Maximize Spell
L18: Quicken Spell

Skills
UMD
Spot
Heal
Jump
Balance
Tumble (Human only)

Maximize is better then Empower Healing it adds a bigger bang to you healing spells and that's what matters in the end but I'm sure a lot of people will argue its inferior to Empower Healing do the the spell point cost difference I don't agree but I wont get in an argument over it.

Same feat should be used for a Stalker path as well, and I would argue for an 20 Ranger AA.

[EllisDee37]

I'm working on getting the build suggestions fleshed out and into a spreadsheet. So far I have monk, rogue, and cleric entered, and I will work on sorc and FVS later today. I really appreciate everyone that contributed with builds! Keep 'em coming!I'm writing a mini-planner specific to this task. I wrote the ability scores section yesterday, hoping to get the skills done by tomorrow. I figure there's only a couple dozen feats total that are worth taking in any path, so the feats should be done in a day or so as well. Then it'll be a matter of creating output and I'll start posting mine and other builds (like Vellrad's sorc) in a consistent format.

What about builds we disagree with? I have several questions/comments about with the cleric builds posted, for example. Does that go in this thread?

[Grace_ana]

I'm writing a mini-planner specific to this task. I wrote the ability scores section yesterday, hoping to get the skills done by tomorrow. I figure there's only a couple dozen feats total that are worth taking in any path, so the feats should be done in a day or so as well. Then it'll be a matter of creating output and I'll start posting mine and other builds (like Vellrad's sorc) in a consistent format.

What about builds we disagree with? I have several questions/comments about with the cleric builds posted, for example. Does that go in this thread?

I didn't know you were writing anything, but I had already put most everything here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bRZqlMEAQ4ezXhcVBhV5WLNrvBcDztZ0FgiuiZz9cqQ/edit?usp=sharing

The only ones I didn't enter were the paladin ones, because I'm unsure what path those would be and figured we could use more discussion on them. Some are changed a bit from what they were posted as, because either (1) the stats didn't actually fit the way they were posted (per the character planner), or (2) stats/feats varied so much between 28 pt or 32 pt, or between races, that I made them more consistent for viewing purposes.

As far as builds you disagree with, of course you should post about it. All I ask of everyone is that it stays on topic and respectful. Thanks!

[Grace_ana]

I'd actually like to open a discussion about the con stat. I've noticed some people having them as low as 10, and I'm not sure how everyone feels about that. I realize stats are tight on a 28 pt build. But I kinda feel like it doesn't give a newbie a lot of leeway for mistakes. Yes, I realize that it is easier now to get things like con items, false life, etc, but even at that, a person that is still learning the game is likely to need a bit of a buffer, even on a typically ranged/caster toon. I remember starting out and having 10 con, and even after I got false life, con items, and tomes, it was a mess.

I would think 12 would be a minimum target for con but I'd like to hear why not. It might mean robbing a primary stat a couple points, which isn't ideal, but then again soulstones do no DPS.

[Grace_ana]

Same feat should be used for a Stalker path as well, and I would argue for an 20 Ranger AA.

To be sure I understand, are you saying to use the same feat progression for all the ranger paths? If so, what would be the point of having different paths? Shouldn't the paths all be different?

[EllisDee37]

I didn't know you were writing anything, but I had already put most everything here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bRZqlMEAQ4ezXhcVBhV5WLNrvBcDztZ0FgiuiZz9cqQ/edit?usp=sharingHow are you handling skills, especially in paths where the different races have a different amount of skill points? This is unavoidable for max-int builds like wizard. Note that max-int builds gain skill points at levels 8 and 16.

EDIT: I see you're largely ignoring skills. Checking the caster cleric sheet, for example, the 28pt builds (other than human and drow) only have two skill points, 28pt humans, all drow, and 32pt non-humans have three skill points, and 32pt human have four skill points. But all are listed as having three skills. (And none take a rank in tumble.)

As for the caster cleric build in particular, I would take maximize as the level 1 feat (quicken makes no sense there) to use on the divine disciple SLAs. Humans would take Empower as the human bonus feat; the other races just wouldn't take empower. Quicken makes sense at level 6 for radiant burst, but can be pushed back later. On a necro build you'll want heighten once slay living can be heightened, which happens at level 11. Level 12 is close enough:

1: Maximize
1Human: Empower
1Half-Elf: Paladin Dilletante
3: Empower Healing Spell
6: Quicken Spell
9: Necro Focus
12: Heighten Spell
15: Spell Penetration
18: Greater Spell Penetration

Also, for the caster cleric I would take concentration instead of diplomacy. I'd actually normalize int across races so that every combination always gets exactly three skill points, and then I'd go with concentration, spellcraft and heal, plus 1 rank in tumble (stealing those two points from heal.) To normalize for 3 skill points, humans would need 10 int and all others 12.

[Grace_ana]

How are you handling skills, especially in paths where the different races have a different amount of skill points? (This is unavoidable for max-int builds like wizard.)

EDIT: I see you're largely ignoring skills. Checking the caster cleric sheet, for example, the 28pt builds (other than human and drow) only have two skill points, 28pt humans, all drow, and 32pt non-humans have three skill points, and 32pt human have four skill points. But all are listed as having three skills. (And none take a rank in tumble.)

It depends. I'm not ignoring skills, but I am trying to balance between skills and points. So, for example, on a cleric build you just aren't going to squeeze out many skills. I didn't bother with tumble except on monks, because feather fall is so easily accessible now it seems like a waste. But, I put extra points in int for ninja spy so they could get hide and move silently. It really depended. All the stuff I put on that spreadsheet I ran through the character planer first, so the numbers should be correct. All the skills are listed on the sheet, and some builds had more than others, but I decided to prioritize standardizing the stats as much as possible as opposed to standardizing the skills. All the builds seem to have a core of standard skills, though.

[EllisDee37]

I decided to prioritize standardizing the stats as much as possible as opposed to standardizing the skills.I don't see any inherent value in standardizing stats, but I see tangible benefit from standardizing skills. (Which isn't possible on a max-int build, of course.)

Note that I edited the previous post a bazillion times.

[Grace_ana]

I don't see any inherent value in standardizing stats, but I see tangible benefit from standardizing skills. (Which isn't possible on a max-int build, of course.)

Note that I edited the previous post a bazillion times.

Well, standardizing stats is important to an extent. HP, saves, DCs, etc. shouldn't vary wildly between races. I agree that each race option should share a core of important skills. For example, it would be silly to give some ranger spot and others UMD. But past the core of what that build *needs*, anything else is really just gravy. But it does matter if, say, one ranger build decides to put 4 extra points in dex and another puts them all in int, because it affects the saves, defenses, damage, etc. that are the base of any build.

That's my philosophy anyway, but I'm willing to hear why it's important for each build to have exactly the same skills. Note that I don't actually think it's possible to build and have all of them have the same skills either, which is a factor.

EDIT: Actually, I think that's ultimately the crux of the matter. There is no way to absolutely standardize the skills or stats, so the best you can really do is come as close to a happy medium as possible. Hence, focusing on a core set of absolutely necessary skills and coming as close as possible on the stats.

[EllisDee37]

Well, standardizing stats is important to an extent. HP, saves, DCs, etc. shouldn't vary wildly between races. I agree that each race option should share a core of important skills. For example, it would be silly to give some ranger spot and others UMD. But past the core of what that build *needs*, anything else is really just gravy. But it does matter if, say, one ranger build decides to put 4 extra points in dex and another puts them all in int, because it affects the saves, defenses, damage, etc. that are the base of any build.By "standardizing" I mean spending the same amount of build points on the stats. For example, what's the logic in spending 2 points on Int for 32pt humans to get the fourth skill, when all other combinations have only 2 or 3?


That's my philosophy anyway, but I'm willing to hear why it's important for each build to have exactly the same skills.Less work.


Note that I don't actually think it's possible to build and have all of them have the same skills either, which is a factor.I'm not sure I understand. If all races start with 12 int, except humans which start with 10 int, then all races have the same skills.

[Grailhawk]

To be sure I understand, are you saying to use the same feat progression for all the ranger paths? If so, what would be the point of having different paths? Shouldn't the paths all be different?

The real difference is in the enhancements and the weapons choice. The goal should be good builds there really is very little difference between Ranger builds when your talking 20 levels. To be effective both need to utilize both ranged and melee abilities ranged AA's and Stalkers need to know when to put down the bow and melee need to know when to pick it up

[Grace_ana]

The real difference is in the enhancements and the weapons choice. The goal should be good builds there really is very little difference between Ranger builds when your talking 20 levels. To be effective both need to utilize both ranged and melee abilities ranged AA's and Stalkers need to know when to put down the bow and melee need to know when to pick it up

I understand those things make a difference, but there need to be differences in the paths as well. Otherwise, there's no point in having them. I know that there are differences in feat choices for people that are tempest melee vs AA, for example.

[Grace_ana]

By "standardizing" I mean spending the same amount of build points on the stats. For example, what's the logic in spending 2 points on Int for 32pt humans to get the fourth skill, when all other combinations have only 2 or 3?

Less work.

I'm not sure I understand. If all races start with 12 int, except humans which start with 10 int, then all races have the same skills.

Gotcha. The reason is, because the stat spread doesn't work out that way. Because of the differences, I found myself having extra points that would fit in some places but not others. So putting the extra points in int would give that build something, whereas putting it in another stat wouldn't really gain anything useful. These builds have very few points to work with, and they are for newbies that need all the help they can get. If it's a choice between putting the extra points in int and getting them an extra skill, or putting them in dex for a whopping +1 reflex save on a save score that will basically be worthless anyway, the skill is more beneficial. It's not less work, because the stats don't conform and they all need to be sorted anyway.

[EllisDee37]

Gotcha. The reason is, because the stat spread doesn't work out that way. Because of the differences, I found myself having extra points that would fit in some places but not others. So putting the extra points in int would give that build something, whereas putting it in another stat wouldn't really gain anything useful. These builds have very few points to work with, and they are for newbies that need all the help they can get. If it's a choice between putting the extra points in int and getting them an extra skill, or putting them in dex for a whopping +1 reflex save on a save score that will basically be worthless anyway, the skill is more beneficial. It's not less work, because the stats don't conform and they all need to be sorted anyway.Putting those points in strength would be a real, tangible benefit. Starting with 8 strength on a robe-wearing wizard is annoying; starting with 8 strength on a heavy-armor wearing cleric is downright painful.

[Grace_ana]

Putting those points in strength would be a real, tangible benefit. Starting with 8 strength on a robe-wearing wizard is annoying; starting with 8 strength on a heavy-armor wearing cleric is downright painful.

If there are specific builds in which you think it would be more beneficial to have the points elsewhere, that should be discussed specifically for that build. But I don't think there should be an overreaching goal to standardize all skills completely, outside of a core set needed for that build. FWIW, I had 8 STR on my heavy armor cleric and had no issues, but YMMV.

[EllisDee37]

If there are specific builds in which you think it would be more beneficial to have the points elsewhere, that should be discussed specifically for that build. But I don't think there should be an overreaching goal to standardize all skills completely, outside of a core set needed for that build. FWIW, I had 8 STR on my heavy armor cleric and had no issues, but YMMV.I'm not sure what you mean. I've been specifically discussing the caster cleric build in your spreadsheet, and only the caster cleric build, for the last five posts I've made in this thread. (Including this one.)

Out of curiosity, did your 8-str cleric have tomes, ship buffs and gear?

[Caprice]

FWIW, I had 8 STR on my heavy armor cleric and had no issues, but YMMV.
My mileage did vary, as I definitely had problems on my Strength 8 Cleric (with neither tomes nor ship buffs at the time). However I knew how to mitigate it with STR buffs and I could afford to leave heavy loot in chests, I knew my limitations would go away as my gear improved, and I had a static duo partner who could protect me in a pinch. A newer player would not have at least some of those advantages and there's no in-game feedback that would help them understand that. Ideally I think a heavy armor using character would have at least a minor investment into STR to limit their sources of frustration while learning the game.

Some numbers: Strength 8 hits medium encumbrance (small runspeed and skill penalty, but no in-game feedback provided) at 97.5 lbs carried. Add together Full Plate (50 lbs), a Heavy Shield (15 lbs) and a Heavy Mace (8 lbs) for a total of 73 lbs in basic equipment and you are most of the way there. Loot another suit of armor out of a chest (medium 30-40 lbs, heavy 40-50) or a few weapons and you are already into medium. Even without looting anything all it takes is one Ray of Enfeeblement and you're probably heavily burdened or overburdened*, and it seems to me that RoE gets cast a lot in the first 6-9 levels. There are also a few other ways to take Strength damage such as some poisons or diseases, and a new player is unlikely to have decent saves via Resistance items or the like at min level, nor a surfeit of plat for potions.

* Or even worse you will be incapacitated on Elite, since Elite RoE tends to do 8-10 points of Strength damage. However hopefully newer players are mainly doing Elites with helpful company.

[EllisDee37]

I haven't finished writing my utility yet, but here's a screenshot of the stats I ended up with for a caster cleric:

http://s26.postimg.org/u1uctsx89/Caster_Cleric_stats.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
free image uploading (http://postimage.org/)


Broad strokes:

- For most races, 28pt gets you 16 wisdom, 32pt gets you 18.
- All combinations have exactly 3 skill points (concentration, spellcraft, heal)
- Most combinations get at least 10 strength
- Half-Elf 32pt sacrifices strength to get 18 wis while still qualifying for pally dilletante
- Warforged 28pt sacrifices strength to overcome its wisdom penalty, essentially getting 18 wisdom on a 28pt build

EDIT: It goes without saying that this thrown-together utility is not getting any love in terms of making it look good. All I care about is functionality and development speed.