Fix ddo (more players)

[maddong]

1. The more people playing the more tomes, cosmetic hats, and pet cats that are sold.

2. Ddo is addictive and hard to quit.

3. Pickup grouping is the lifeblood of ddo. Empty PUG windows leads to people getting off and curing their addiction.

Solution:
1. Make all level 1-10 (or up to 12 since 13s are needed for iconic elite streaking) quests free to attract more players and fill up the PUG scene (you still have to pay for epic versions of quests). If you get people playing you can get them hooked and they will need to buy iconics (now those free quests with ****** loot aren't so useful anymore), epic destinies, and some epic quests. All future quest development is obviously level 15+. Start a new welcome to ddo ad campaign at the same time.

2. See above. You are letting people play into where they will need to buy and getting them addicted. Give newly created accounts a +10% xp bonus for 1 month to get them into the habit of playing before it expires.

3. 3:1 or 4:1 server merge please. If the game gets "too popular" you can always create a new server (I'd hate to have that problem). Rotate the default server randomly to spread the wealth of new players instead of piling them into the same server.

Basically:
I don't like seeing layoffs every 6 months and we need to turn this ship around. Otherwise there isn't much point in wasting money on a +6 tome if the game is empty.

[Livmo]

1. The more people playing the more tomes, cosmetic hats, and pet cats that are sold.

2. Ddo is addictive and hard to quit.

3. Pickup grouping is the lifeblood of ddo. Empty PUG windows leads to people getting off and curing their addiction.

Solution:
1. Make all level 1-10 (or up to 12 since 13s are needed for iconic elite streaking) quests free to attract more players and fill up the PUG scene (you still have to pay for epic versions of quests). If you get people playing you can get them hooked and they will need to buy iconics (now those free quests with ****** loot aren't so useful anymore), epic destinies, and some epic quests. All future quest development is obviously level 15+. Start a new welcome to ddo ad campaign at the same time.

2. See above. You are letting people play into where they will need to buy and getting them addicted. Give newly created accounts a +10% xp bonus for 1 month to get them into the habit of playing before it expires.

3. 3:1 or 4:1 server merge please. If the game gets "too popular" you can always create a new server (I'd hate to have that problem). Rotate the default server randomly to spread the wealth of new players instead of piling them into the same server.

Basically:
I don't like seeing layoffs every 6 months and we need to turn this ship around. Otherwise there isn't much point in wasting money on a +6 tome if the game is empty.

People rule!

The issue is people and the solution is also, people. Moar people!

The suggestion I will throw into the ring is to market to 40-50 year olds. There are 2 other age ranges that played DnD during the game's boom years as well. Basiccally, where do 40-50 year olds that played DnD during one of the booms hang out on the Internet and market the game to them. Keep in mind there are other target populations, and every age in general (moar is betta) is welcome. In sum, make 40-50 aware that the game exists and that they can play in groups and solo. It would help to throw in vibrant online community?

[GeneralDiomedes]

There are enough people who have played this game at one time or another to make a viable population. IMO that is not the issue ..

[goodspeed]

pugs are dead, the economies dead, and no one wants to talk chat, even have a flame war in general of any and all zones. This is er is.

DDO is closed community based now, kinda like lotr, or really any mmo lol. Thank you come again.

[morkahn82]

1. The more people playing the more tomes, cosmetic hats, and pet cats that are sold.

At least my impression is that turbine focuses on the part of the playerbase (5%) that acquire their items/xp in ddo store rather than ingame. That is why those items have an extremly rare drop rate (even worse since 2012). Some of these are even exclusive to store. If turbine would focus on a larger playerbase, the state of the game would not be that much p2w. They are just milkin the 5% store powerusers. You do not reach a large playerbase with agressive p2w. At least my guess is that this is why the number of players is dropin so rapidly. Lag, bugs, quality of content is the same state as always. I would not pay a subscription for a game, where characters are tuned by store purchases, pure cheating.

I would also be glad if turbine could provide these two numbers:
+6 tomes found in game
+6 tomes sold in store

[Powskier]

new players get an awful experience often in ddo. i seen my old dice buddies ,decide to try the game out,and sure as shoot ,the older experienced players end up zergin way past the newbs...they get little dungeon interaction and then dont quite know how to handle a stray mob.Hard to blame newbs,there are never normal difficulty runs in lfm. The ubber guilds are where ddo needs community help..not with EE raids;but with helping new player base integrate.Players say there are no lfm's ,yet they chase any newer players off with really rude group behaviors.

[morkahn82]

new players get an awful experience often in ddo. i seen my old dice buddies ,decide to try the game out,and sure as shoot ,the older experienced players end up zergin way past the newbs...they get little dungeon interaction and then dont quite know how to handle a stray mob.Hard to blame newbs,there are never normal difficulty runs in lfm. The ubber guilds are where ddo needs community help..not with EE raids;but with helping new player base integrate.Players say there are no lfm's ,yet they chase any newer players off with really rude group behaviors.

do you expect advanced players to nanny new players which join an adventure on elite difficulty? I started the game by running normal difficulty and advancing to hard and elite as my skill progressed, and I advise new players to do the same. It is the bravery bonus which forces new player to join adventure above their skill level. Maybe first and second lifers should get maximum bravery bonus for any difficulty, so they are not forced to join elite difficulty parties.

[dunklezhan]

1. The more people playing the more tomes, cosmetic hats, and pet cats that are sold.

2. Ddo is addictive and hard to quit.

3. Pickup grouping is the lifeblood of ddo. Empty PUG windows leads to people getting off and curing their addiction.



In other news: rain is wet. You're 100% correct, but these are day one lessons for devs. It would be like Yoda leaving it till his death bed to mention to Luke that a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. When 900 years you reach, make such a n00b mistake you would no- Oh. Right. Well, moving swiftly on then.



Solution:
1. Make all level 1-10 (or up to 12 since 13s are needed for iconic elite streaking) quests free to attract more players and fill up the PUG scene (you still have to pay for epic versions of quests). If you get people playing you can get them hooked and they will need to buy iconics (now those free quests with ****** loot aren't so useful anymore), epic destinies, and some epic quests. All future quest development is obviously level 15+. Start a new welcome to ddo ad campaign at the same time.

2. See above. You are letting people play into where they will need to buy and getting them addicted. Give newly created accounts a +10% xp bonus for 1 month to get them into the habit of playing before it expires.

3. 3:1 or 4:1 server merge please. If the game gets "too popular" you can always create a new server (I'd hate to have that problem). Rotate the default server randomly to spread the wealth of new players instead of piling them into the same server.

Basically:
I don't like seeing layoffs every 6 months and we need to turn this ship around. Otherwise there isn't much point in wasting money on a +6 tome if the game is empty.


1. Making the front half of the game free while paying for the top half is going to feel like bait and switch when people hit the paywall. The mixed approach sets expectations nicely from the outset, I think.

2. New accounts getting a 10% bonus surely won't "feel" like they're getting a bonus, because they have no baseline to compare it to? Won't it just feel like a penalty when the month is up? Also, approaching MMO design purely as if it was a drug leads to very bad games (cf any of those korean MMOs that are the reason F2P had such a bad rep in the West for so long). DDO is a good game, despite the various hamster wheels they've brought in over recent years. Let's keep it that way.

3. ... I think your third point has great ideas for addressing the numbers issue, but there's a lot of logistics to worry about (which shared bank do you keep for instance if you have characters on both servers?). I am very much in favour of a server merge but only if its done with due care, attention and consideration.

[Paleus]

do you expect advanced players to nanny new players which join an adventure on elite difficulty? I started the game by running normal difficulty and advancing to hard and elite as my skill progressed, and I advise new players to do the same. It is the bravery bonus which forces new player to join adventure above their skill level. Maybe first and second lifers should get maximum bravery bonus for any difficulty, so they are not forced to join elite difficulty parties.

When someone mentions the new player experience, someone else invariably says something to this effect how its not their responsibility. That much is true, a vet has no obligation to slow down their questing for a new player. However, back when many vets joined the game there were far more new players joining the game at the same time. New players who didn't want to lead their own pugs could reliably group with other new players and learn the game at their own pace. Now there aren't "Stay Together, Roles" LFMs (used to be a thing) put up alongside the "Zerg BYOH" LFMs, zerg is just the standard.

The gaming environment used to naturally had enough variety in available LFMs and players that new players could find groups that went their own pace and develop their skills in a social setting. That environment is gone, so the new player is forced with either going alone, or enduring a constantly feeling like dead weight. Removing bravery bonus would help reduce the issue of elite only LFMs being a barrier to new players, but that alone won't fix the issue of the population not having enough positive churn to support a preponderance of new player oriented groups. People join MMOs to play with others and so this changed dynamic is an understandable factor in the inability to recruit and retain new players. The only mechanism left to affect this particular factor contributing to player decline (not to say there are not many other factors this won't address) is for vets to take some responsibility in easing new players into the game, something some understandably don't want to spend their limited game time doing.

[Vellrad]

When someone mentions the new player experience, someone else invariably says something to this effect how its not their responsibility. That much is true, a vet has no obligation to slow down their questing for a new player. However, back when many vets joined the game there were far more new players joining the game at the same time. New players who didn't want to lead their own pugs could reliably group with other new players and learn the game at their own pace. Now there aren't "Stay Together, Roles" LFMs (used to be a thing) put up alongside the "Zerg BYOH" LFMs, zerg is just the standard.

The gaming environment used to naturally had enough variety in available LFMs and players that new players could find groups that went their own pace and develop their skills in a social setting. That environment is gone, so the new player is forced with either going alone, or enduring a constantly feeling like dead weight. Removing bravery bonus would help reduce the issue of elite only LFMs being a barrier to new players, but that alone won't fix the issue of the population not having enough positive churn to support a preponderance of new player oriented groups. People join MMOs to play with others and so this changed dynamic is an understandable factor in the inability to recruit and retain new players. The only mechanism left to affect this particular factor contributing to player decline (not to say there are not many other factors this won't address) is for vets to take some responsibility in easing new players into the game, something some understandably don't want to spend their limited game time doing.

Fail.

Without BB there is absolutely no reason at all to ever throw an LFM.
So how is having absolutely 0 LFMs is a good thing?

[LeoLionxxx]

So, from reading this thread it seem the issues with DDO are as follows:

-Broken economy: It used to be gold/platinum meant something and the Auction House was bustling with activity. Nowadays everything anyone wants is on the Shard exchange, which requires the real-money astral shards - something a lot of players don't want to invest in. They may have lined Turbine's pockets a little, but overall they have hurt the game.


-Zerging/elitism: For the most part, players want to, at the lower levels, run elite, the whole elite, and nothing but the elite due to that bravery bonus and streak. Bonus xp has come to be considered 'mandatory' for the leveling process, and because of it players are reluctant to break out of their streaks to play lower difficulties.


-Low population: A rampant issue that has been a bit of a problem for a while. People have debated the merits and demerits of server merges; some say their a sign of weakness, others say that on the long term it would be productive.



To these issues it seems to me extreme action is needed:
-Ween people off the Astral shard exchange and perhaps eventually eliminate it altogether. Find some other use for these valuable shards, like convenience micro-transactions or consumables (chest re-roll is good, except for how intrusive it still is :\). Add a small way for them to be collected by players as well, like top tier favor rewards - something that will get people hooked.
Oh, and please remove the icon from the bottom right corner :(


-Here I would think there is the necessity to either remove the elite-streak all together, or (more feasibly) have it degrade when doing a quest of the wrong diff. People feel the need to keep that streak up, and don't wan to break it.


-Server merge would be a huge step in one of two directions: a sign of weakness, or a sign that something is being done. I think ideally a few mega-servers (or 1) would be created so that they could be introduced as a shiny new thing. However, if mere consolidation was done with some of the existing worlds, I think the overall reaction would be positive - the first step to solving a problem is admittign you have one.

ty for reading!

[Paleus]

Fail.

Without BB there is absolutely no reason at all to ever throw an LFM.
So how is having absolutely 0 LFMs is a good thing?

What you're saying is that there is absolutely no reason for you to throw an LFM without BB. That much I cannot disagree with if that is your preferred mindset. However, some people may join LFMs because they want to group with people they don't know, oddly enough in an MMO I suppose.

My original response was to someone arguing for removing BB as it creates barriers to new players. As I noted, that is only partially true.

It is partially true because BB incentivizes only putting up elite LFMs and not joining someone who put up an LFM of a different difficulty if you haven't run the quest. For new players getting accustomed to the game, seeing the bonuses of running BB and that it is effectively standard game practice can induce the feeling of the need to always be running elite, whether or not the reality is that 1) New players may not be able to handle elite and 2) New players really don't need to run BB to effectively level.

Nevertheless, removing BB only reduces the likelihood of only ever seeing elite LFMs and new players feeling incentivized to run elite when they should probably run normal. My point (which you overlooked in the haste to defend BB and shout fail) was that it would not change the prevailing player "demographics" of having mostly vets playing with a low volume of new players churning into the system. The LFMs, whether they be posted at elite or normal, will still be mostly posted by vets. And they will still play the game at a faster speed than a new player is capable of handling. That is a problem that removing BB will not address.

As I noted, it is a problem that is probably only truly able to be addressed by the actions of vets towards new players. No amount of Turbine tweaking the system is going to be truly capable of changing the dynamics of new player experience with pugging unless we suddenly see a massive influx of new players (which no one expects) able to consistently populate LFMs at their own pace.

[FranOhmsford]

Solution:
1. Make all level 1-10 (or up to 12 since 13s are needed for iconic elite streaking) quests free to attract more players and fill up the PUG scene (you still have to pay for epic versions of quests). If you get people playing you can get them hooked and they will need to buy iconics (now those free quests with ****** loot aren't so useful anymore), epic destinies, and some epic quests. All future quest development is obviously level 15+. Start a new welcome to ddo ad campaign at the same time.

A Truly bad idea as others have mentioned.

BUT

There is frankly too much P2P Play at the lower levels - Cutting people off from F2P without massive grind at Lvl 13 was all well and good when the cap was 16 or 20 but when the cap is 28 that is just plain nasty!

I'd suggest that rather than making EVERY lvl 1-10/13 pack F2P the Devs pick out the weaker non Epic P2P packs for this change:
1) Sharn Syndicate
2) Sorrowdusk Isle
3) Restless Isles
4) Harbinger of Madness
5) Reign of Madness

This makes the journey to 20 slightly easier for F2Ps!


2. See above. You are letting people play into where they will need to buy and getting them addicted. Give newly created accounts a +10% xp bonus for 1 month to get them into the habit of playing before it expires.

This would hurt newbies more than help them!

It would cut down the number of quests they have to run to get into higher levels and therefore get them to those higher levels long before they're ready!
DDO has always had this problem - Exacerbating it is a bad idea!

Counter-Proposal - Newbies get -10% XP for their first month in game {They won't even notice this until they start getting more so they're hardly gonna complain when they do get more!


3. 3:1 or 4:1 server merge please. If the game gets "too popular" you can always create a new server (I'd hate to have that problem). Rotate the default server randomly to spread the wealth of new players instead of piling them into the same server.


I've been saying for over a year now that Server Mergers need to happen sooner rather than later!
BEFORE they become a necessity as that would be too late to stop the rot!

However: Rotating the default server weekly is how the Devs used to do things and that failed miserably!
The Default does still rotate but the Default Server itself has more chance of keeping newbies now than back when rotation happened weekly!

1 week as default + 7 weeks off just doesn't give enough time for a critical mass of newbies to appear!


If you look at the DDOracle Graphs the Non-Default servers stay pretty steady throughout - They're not hemorrhaging players!
While each Default Server recently has shot up and allowing enough time for the low levels to populate allows for more players to stick around for longer!

Yes - When losing the Default Ghallanda and Orien dropped back to levels around where they were previous to becoming the Default very fast BUT Cannith proved that that isn't guaranteed to happen!
Cannith is losing players too yes but on a much slower curve - It maintained top spot throughout Orien's turn as the default!


Reduce the current 8 Servers to 4!
Merge Orien with Argonnessen
Merge Wayfinder with Ghallanda
Merge Cannith with Khyber, Thelanis or Sarlona
Merge Sarlona with Khyber, Thelanis or Cannith
Merge Thelanis with Khyber, Cannith or Sarlona

The first two are obvious mergers for me whereas the later 4 servers could be merged with any of the other 3.

[Robbenklopper]

new players get an awful experience often in ddo. i seen my old dice buddies ,decide to try the game out,and sure as shoot ,the older experienced players end up zergin way past the newbs...they get little dungeon interaction and then dont quite know how to handle a stray mob.Hard to blame newbs,there are never normal difficulty runs in lfm. The ubber guilds are where ddo needs community help..not with EE raids;but with helping new player base integrate.Players say there are no lfm's ,yet they chase any newer players off with really rude group behaviors.

Hasn´t been any different to me when i joined in 3 years ago. Took me a whole year to get better. I couldn´t get out of the marvel what those vets were doiing. 1st life died often, crappy gear, no idea of anything. I remember my first holy sword +5 from AH, was around 100.000 platinum, all the Money i worked for months.

You Need a Devotion for D&D to Play ddo. So i ran many quests many times (coz of dying too :) ) solo on normal to get them known and become familiar. I´d say for an average "just MMOer", it must be horrible and you´ll quit.
My luck, too, one friends joined in from the begining and another friend about three months later. We did many more quests all on ourselves, Feeling ashamed of our abilities, before we ever joined a pug or started a pug.
And of course many good souls who explained this or that to us or lead through a lead with Patience.

I think you Need to pay your dues and don´t try to Keep up with the vets and zergers, spend your time to Play every quest once or twice before you can gear a Level up.

[8rad]

I was involved in Beta testing of World of Warplanes. During that time the community coordinator for Wargaming NA had an interesting idea. A group of veteran players(including myself) were invited to be "Community Aces".

The purpose of the group was to not only provide forum content for new players like tutorials etc. but also act as ambassadors to new players.

We set up a training night, where a couple of veterans would make themselves available to flight up with 1 or more new players and bring them into battles in low tier planes. I did this a few times and I can tell you It really made me feel good for doing it and the new players really felt encouraged and embraced by the community. They also got better much more quickly from having a more experienced player teaching the do's and donts in game in real time.

This is an idea that could really make DDO more inclusive and enjoyable for new players.

Quite some time ago, I was able to participate in a "Cronoscope Training Raid" on Argo. A few high level players had started this and I joined up. It was a terrific experience. Everyone was super talkative and helpful, I learned a lot.

It helped shed the perception, if just for a time, that DDO is inclusive and not exclusive.

[painkiller3]

... Give newly created accounts a +10% xp bonus for 1 month to get them into the habit of playing before it expires. ...

the idea is good, but the implementation is not (as others have said). to encourage pugging why not give a 10% xp bonus on the weekends for all groups that form through pugs. yes people will abuse it, but even filling 2 spots with non-guildies or newbies or whatever will make it a little more alive.

[FranOhmsford]

I think you Need to pay your dues and don´t try to Keep up with the vets and zergers, spend your time to Play every quest once or twice before you can gear a Level up.

Strange...

With over 60 characters including ones I've deleted and incl. multiple 2nd and 3rd lifers I've long ago lost count of the number of times I've played lvl 1-10 quests!

Whereas - The guy with one character is now a Completionist and complaining that the game is "Too Easy"


When People use terms like "pay your dues" my hackles go up as I've spent 4 years paying my dues playing 6 hrs on average per day 7 days a week, 365 days a year!
I came to DDO in the early summer and didn't go VIP till after Christmas 2010!
I played through Normal and Hard to get to Elites {Usually Solo with Hireling!}!
When I did join groups for Elites I found that my Solo {with hire} play on N and H hadn't done anywhere near enough to ready me for that!

So I went back to soloing - Only now on Elite - Sometimes 5 or 6 levels above the base level of the quest {I well remember not being able to complete Elite A Small Problem at Lvl 13!}.


This game is a lot harder than certain people give it credit for!

And it doesn't matter how much you play N and H the only way you'll ever be ready for Elites is by PLAYING Elites!

That didn't matter so much Pre BB, Pre MotU, WHEN there were far more players at all levels!
BUT NOW
When the game is stretched and the population is HALF that of 2 years ago!

Expecting a Player coming to DDO now to spend months playing N/H/E Solo is just WRONG!

[Gremmlynn]

the idea is good, but the implementation is not (as others have said). to encourage pugging why not give a 10% xp bonus on the weekends for all groups that form through pugs. yes people will abuse it, but even filling 2 spots with non-guildies or newbies or whatever will make it a little more alive.Frankly, I don't see how encouraging pugging would help the game much.

Encouraging guilding would be better for it as that would lead to people playing long enough together to get a feel for each other and concentrate on the game, not what unexpected thing the other group members are going to do next.


Though expecting an 8 1/2 year old game to be able to attract a lot of new players, in any case, seems a bit unrealistic. Much less a game with as much of a learning/power curve for new players to be behind as DDO.

[8rad]

Though expecting an 8 1/2 year old game to be able to attract a lot of new players, in any case, seems a bit unrealistic. Much less a game with as much of a learning/power curve for new players to be behind as DDO.

As sad as it is to say. I think you are right. The populations are just going to continue to decline.

Quite frankly there is just not anything we can do about it.

[Grahson]

A lot of good points here but the real reason we (people that actually played D&D, I've played since before it went hard cover) was for fun. More of a hobby. Unfortunately this is not what DDO has become. Yes I know it's a video game, but it's not a game that you win and that's how it's being treated now. People in my age group also have the most disposable income. We are turned off by this kind of competition thing, my toon is greater than your toon. Running thru quests as fast as you can, this xp per minute thing. Sorry but this is not what D&D was intended to be and it turns us off. When I first started playing this there where a lot of people who just had fun playing. They where not concerned with just running for xp as fast as they could to tr over and over. They played had fun helped others anyway they could and the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lives still came and went.

So what's your goal to be bored? Run everything as fast as possible get your toon to a point where you can or think you can solo all the ee's and then get on the forum and complain that you're tired of the game and want it made more difficult just for you. See the problem yet?

[jalont]

At least my impression is that turbine focuses on the part of the playerbase (5%) that acquire their items/xp in ddo store rather than ingame. That is why those items have an extremly rare drop rate (even worse since 2012). Some of these are even exclusive to store. If turbine would focus on a larger playerbase, the state of the game would not be that much p2w. They are just milkin the 5% store powerusers. You do not reach a large playerbase with agressive p2w. At least my guess is that this is why the number of players is dropin so rapidly. Lag, bugs, quality of content is the same state as always. I would not pay a subscription for a game, where characters are tuned by store purchases, pure cheating.

I would also be glad if turbine could provide these two numbers:
+6 tomes found in game
+6 tomes sold in store

As long as we keep handing out player power, the game is going to be designed around "p2w". You can't have it both ways. If you want easy EE and a game with no challenge that is only based around grind, that means that powergamers are going to leave, and the game is going to be supported by whales. You can't have it both ways, so remember, every time someone comes out here begging for more player power and easier EE, they're really asking for a more casual, Farmville-like game with Farmville-like monetization. And if you look around, that seems to be what most people actually want.

[Paleus]

I was involved in Beta testing of World of Warplanes. During that time the community coordinator for Wargaming NA had an interesting idea. A group of veteran players(including myself) were invited to be "Community Aces".

The purpose of the group was to not only provide forum content for new players like tutorials etc. but also act as ambassadors to new players.

We set up a training night, where a couple of veterans would make themselves available to flight up with 1 or more new players and bring them into battles in low tier planes. I did this a few times and I can tell you It really made me feel good for doing it and the new players really felt encouraged and embraced by the community. They also got better much more quickly from having a more experienced player teaching the do's and donts in game in real time.

This is an idea that could really make DDO more inclusive and enjoyable for new players.

Quite some time ago, I was able to participate in a "Cronoscope Training Raid" on Argo. A few high level players had started this and I joined up. It was a terrific experience. Everyone was super talkative and helpful, I learned a lot.

It helped shed the perception, if just for a time, that DDO is inclusive and not exclusive.

I think this type of idea is better than ideas like 10% to new players. We used to do naked Tempest Runs and the like as a community for giggles, why not Newb Chronos or WaterWorks tours. I'm not sure if Turbine has the staff to support setting up these types of events regularly, but if they could or if the community could I suspect it would help with new player recruitment. I'm thinking you would want the vets to play as rogues and clerics to fill roles a new player needs (even if a vet doesn't), or maybe artificers and favored souls/druids to encourage buying those classes.

[Erdrique]

Trying to gather more players into an older game is always a tricky proposition. Some of the ideas listed here are quite creative such as proposing a 10% experience bonus for a short while for all new players. However, I agree that it could be a little misleading to those new players as they would begin to wonder why their experience production went down after that bonus period. It would be more interesting, at least to me, to see them get a free experience potion after logging a certain about of hours questing (and not just parking in the public areas).

I think the best way to keep new players is to provide them with a positive gaming experience. Vets should be doing what they can to make questing for new players fun, creative, and informative. Initiatives such Players Helping Players by Evennote and the various DDO TwitchTV channels help to promote and facilitate this activity. However, many vets don't want to participate in these types of initiatives because of numerous reasons: they play high level characters only, they just want to do their reincarnation grinding, they don't have the time in their busy schedules, they don't feel they should be a babysitter, etc... The community needs to step up more, in my humble opinion, to help keep newer players in the game by giving them those fun experiences.

However, the next question is how do you attract players to the game to begin with? This is more on Turbine than anything else, at least in my opinion. The various community efforts: bloggers, podcasts, streamers, facebook pages, guild pages, etc... can only do so much. More effort needs to be made to push the game out and forward. Even if you can't do any direct advertising, reaching out to the various game media websites to do articles on DDO periodically would go a long way (assuming of course that those articles are favorable).

As for the issue of the empty group panels. I have no idea on how to figure this one out. Many people will advocate that the bravery bonus from the elite streak has caused vets to not post a group and that when one is posted and a newer player joins the group the new player doesn't benefit from an enjoyable experience and is generally left behind wondering what is happening. However, even if the bravery bonus is removed, I still think vets would continue to run quests the way they currently do as they speed through their various reincarnations. I still think we need more of an incentive to form up a group, a carrot for group leaders to actually post in the LFM panel.

I'm not sure how to help out this situation, losing players and empty LFMs are disappointing. I have seen a number of low level players come and go in our guild during my recruiting since the beginning of the year (probably around 8-10) and it is disappointing to see the last time they logged in to be a few months ago :(.

[Powskier]

do you expect advanced players to nanny new players which join an adventure on elite difficulty? I started the game by running normal difficulty and advancing to hard and elite as my skill progressed, and I advise new players to do the same. It is the bravery bonus which forces new player to join adventure above their skill level. Maybe first and second lifers should get maximum bravery bonus for any difficulty, so they are not forced to join elite difficulty parties.

1st lifers dont need elite xps...it is favor and challenge that brings them into elite..as well as there are no ,non elite lfms. You cant imagine how many players I met that hate grouping because of how pompous vets interact...What are Guilds here for? to have elitists zone together and take a dump on every other player? sounds like what some think.Behavior like this ,would get you far not ,at a table game.

[haulindonkey]

I was involved in Beta testing of World of Warplanes. During that time the community coordinator for Wargaming NA had an interesting idea. A group of veteran players(including myself) were invited to be "Community Aces".

The purpose of the group was to not only provide forum content for new players like tutorials etc. but also act as ambassadors to new players.

We set up a training night, where a couple of veterans would make themselves available to flight up with 1 or more new players and bring them into battles in low tier planes. I did this a few times and I can tell you It really made me feel good for doing it and the new players really felt encouraged and embraced by the community. They also got better much more quickly from having a more experienced player teaching the do's and donts in game in real time.

This is an idea that could really make DDO more inclusive and enjoyable for new players.

Quite some time ago, I was able to participate in a "Cronoscope Training Raid" on Argo. A few high level players had started this and I joined up. It was a terrific experience. Everyone was super talkative and helpful, I learned a lot.

It helped shed the perception, if just for a time, that DDO is inclusive and not exclusive.

Mentoring has been suggested before and I for one think it's an awesome idea. I always try to help newer players that join my PUGS and am happy to answer questions letting them friend me and ask away. If all of us did a bit of mentoring from time to time we might retain a few more of the newbs until they become uber Vets like the rest of us.

[hp1055cm]

Personally I'm ready for something new. I have had enough fun on this hamster wheel.
Set an end date for DDO and begin production of DDO2. perhaps even allow those that pre-order to migrate up to 4 characters with some bonuses.
This way they could fix the fundamental problems inherent in the game and apply what they have learned from this one.
FTP should be temporary and limited. Get in, get a feel for the game, then pay if you want to keep playing.

[haulindonkey]

A lot of good points here but the real reason we (people that actually played D&D, I've played since before it went hard cover) was for fun. More of a hobby. Unfortunately this is not what DDO has become. Yes I know it's a video game, but it's not a game that you win and that's how it's being treated now. People in my age group also have the most disposable income. We are turned off by this kind of competition thing, my toon is greater than your toon. Running thru quests as fast as you can, this xp per minute thing. Sorry but this is not what D&D was intended to be and it turns us off. When I first started playing this there where a lot of people who just had fun playing. They where not concerned with just running for xp as fast as they could to tr over and over. They played had fun helped others anyway they could and the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lives still came and went.

So what's your goal to be bored? Run everything as fast as possible get your toon to a point where you can or think you can solo all the ee's and then get on the forum and complain that you're tired of the game and want it made more difficult just for you. See the problem yet?

You make some excellent points here and this past night I had some of the most fun I've had in quite awhile running the Ascension Chamber raid (translation for newbs - Abbott raid). I encouraged some of the people that went with me and smooth sailed on elite to stick around and use some bypasses as it's hard to get a group up and ur best chance to bank some completions is while we have a great group together. I even gave out 3 timer bypasses to keep some people on. Ended up getting 4 completions in total and retaining some of original group while having others join. Just a real fun time and wasn't worried about xp at all - seeing as epic level toons in heroic raid....

[haulindonkey]

Personally I'm ready for something new. I have had enough fun on this hamster wheel.
Set an end date for DDO and begin production of DDO2. perhaps even allow those that pre-order to migrate up to 4 characters with some bonuses.
This way they could fix the fundamental problems inherent in the game and apply what they have learned from this one.
FTP should be temporary and limited. Get in, get a feel for the game, then pay if you want to keep playing.

Get back to me when you find a gaming company willing to fund the design and implementation of such a game. I'd love DDO2, just don't see it happening....

[Paleus]

Personally I'm ready for something new. I have had enough fun on this hamster wheel.
Set an end date for DDO and begin production of DDO2. perhaps even allow those that pre-order to migrate up to 4 characters with some bonuses.
This way they could fix the fundamental problems inherent in the game and apply what they have learned from this one.
FTP should be temporary and limited. Get in, get a feel for the game, then pay if you want to keep playing.

A lot of people have quit DDO over the years saying they're waiting for DDO2. Problem is, that's never materialized. Now other MMOs like NWO have materialized in the DnD universe of games, and if that didn't pull you in, I'm not sure waiting for another DnD game to materialize that feels like DDO without being DDO is something to pin any hope to.

Additionally, under no circumstance should players be able to migrate from DDO to DDO2 if such a thing came out. Power creep in abilities and loot is an acknowledged issue in this game, so just wholesale transferring that into a new game seems like a bad idea.

I'm not saying you shouldn't move on if you're bored with the game, just that you shouldn't put up the idea that there will be some mythical DDO2 to cure all the problems you have with the current game. There won't be, so either love the one your with.... or dump her, try something new, and maybe come back after a few updates put out more things to do. (I'm not sure that's how the song goes).

[8rad]

Mentoring has been suggested before and I for one think it's an awesome idea. I always try to help newer players that join my PUGS and am happy to answer questions letting them friend me and ask away. If all of us did a bit of mentoring from time to time we might retain a few more of the newbs until they become uber Vets like the rest of us.

There are hundreds if not thousands of vets that would be willing to mentor or run training raids. Of that fact I have no doubt.

I think the bigger problem is the "perception" of new players that you have to be good to join a pug (because all the pugs are elite) and that you have to join a pug to quest because soloing can be difficult if you are new to the game.

Lets look at this from the point of view of someone arriving on Korthos for the first time.

Player arrives on Korthos. Does the Grotto and arrives in town. Farts around talking to people, goes to tavern etc. Opens quest panel. No pugs for lvl 1-3. "Ok, no problem, I'll just try these quests here by myself and see how it goes." Does the three quests in town on normal.
"Ok this game is kinda fun, maybe I'll see if theres a group I can join." Opens group panel and there is one LFM "Korthos elites TR speed". "hmmmm elites, those guys must be good, maybe I'll wait to see if a normal group pops up I can join. In the meantime maybe I'll go up to the cannith manufactury and do that one." First time around player dies from a sauhagin spear. Second and third time Heyton is killed. Still no pugs up for Korthos quests on normal. "hmmmm, well this game is kinda hard and there are no groups for people of my skill level."

[ivstuntman]

A Truly bad idea as others have mentioned.

BUT

There is frankly too much P2P Play at the lower levels - Cutting people off from F2P without massive grind at Lvl 13 was all well and good when the cap was 16 or 20 but when the cap is 28 that is just plain nasty!

I'd suggest that rather than making EVERY lvl 1-10/13 pack F2P the Devs pick out the weaker non Epic P2P packs for this change:
1) Sharn Syndicate
2) Sorrowdusk Isle
3) Restless Isles
4) Harbinger of Madness
5) Reign of Madness

This makes the journey to 20 slightly easier for F2Ps!



This would hurt newbies more than help them!

It would cut down the number of quests they have to run to get into higher levels and therefore get them to those higher levels long before they're ready!
DDO has always had this problem - Exacerbating it is a bad idea!

Counter-Proposal - Newbies get -10% XP for their first month in game {They won't even notice this until they start getting more so they're hardly gonna complain when they do get more!



I've been saying for over a year now that Server Mergers need to happen sooner rather than later!
BEFORE they become a necessity as that would be too late to stop the rot!

However: Rotating the default server weekly is how the Devs used to do things and that failed miserably!
The Default does still rotate but the Default Server itself has more chance of keeping newbies now than back when rotation happened weekly!

1 week as default + 7 weeks off just doesn't give enough time for a critical mass of newbies to appear!


If you look at the DDOracle Graphs the Non-Default servers stay pretty steady throughout - They're not hemorrhaging players!
While each Default Server recently has shot up and allowing enough time for the low levels to populate allows for more players to stick around for longer!

Yes - When losing the Default Ghallanda and Orien dropped back to levels around where they were previous to becoming the Default very fast BUT Cannith proved that that isn't guaranteed to happen!
Cannith is losing players too yes but on a much slower curve - It maintained top spot throughout Orien's turn as the default!


Reduce the current 8 Servers to 4!
Merge Orien with Argonnessen
Merge Wayfinder with Ghallanda
Merge Cannith with Khyber, Thelanis or Sarlona
Merge Sarlona with Khyber, Thelanis or Cannith
Merge Thelanis with Khyber, Cannith or Sarlona

The first two are obvious mergers for me whereas the later 4 servers could be merged with any of the other 3.


This man speaks the truth. Just make a bunch of non epic runs free to play, or maybe have a free map pack rotation once every month like other games have for their content. I own some of the weaker content and this game and I wouldn't mind it becoming f2p, just throw in some blah re-imbursment (f2p packs value in minor exp potions to people who own it), if it meant the game being more alive.

Also, add a platinum incentive for using in game chat public chat channels, and nerf vendor trash/dungeon platinum drop rates as to avoid inflation.

That combined with a server merge may give us at least a comfy community of frequents, even if it doesn't resurrect the game.

Also, why do people EVER complain about power creep in a pve oriented game that's based on flavor builds?

[haulindonkey]

This man speaks the truth. Just make a bunch of non epic runs free to play, or maybe have a free map pack rotation once every month like other games have for their content. I own some of the weaker content and this game and I wouldn't mind it becoming f2p, just throw in some blah re-imbursment (f2p packs value in minor exp potions to people who own it), if it meant the game being more alive.

Also, add a platinum incentive for using in game chat public chat channels, and nerf vendor trash/dungeon platinum drop rates as to avoid inflation.

That combined with a server merge may give us at least a comfy community of frequents, even if it doesn't resurrect the game.

Also, why do people EVER complain about power creep in a pve oriented game that's based on flavor builds?

Agree with you here and with Franohmsford's earlier post. Just make the obsolete heroic only content ftp or make a one of them the "free heroic pack of the week" say on a rotating schedule. It would also be good if some of the community were to mentor the "free pack of the week" if such a thing were implemented...

[Krell]

1. The more people playing the more tomes, cosmetic hats, and pet cats that are sold.

2. Ddo is addictive and hard to quit.

3. Pickup grouping is the lifeblood of ddo. Empty PUG windows leads to people getting off and curing their addiction.

Solution:
1. Make all level 1-10 (or up to 12 since 13s are needed for iconic elite streaking) quests free to attract more players and fill up the PUG scene (you still have to pay for epic versions of quests). If you get people playing you can get them hooked and they will need to buy iconics (now those free quests with ****** loot aren't so useful anymore), epic destinies, and some epic quests. All future quest development is obviously level 15+. Start a new welcome to ddo ad campaign at the same time.

2. See above. You are letting people play into where they will need to buy and getting them addicted. Give newly created accounts a +10% xp bonus for 1 month to get them into the habit of playing before it expires.

3. 3:1 or 4:1 server merge please. If the game gets "too popular" you can always create a new server (I'd hate to have that problem). Rotate the default server randomly to spread the wealth of new players instead of piling them into the same server.

Basically:
I don't like seeing layoffs every 6 months and we need to turn this ship around. Otherwise there isn't much point in wasting money on a +6 tome if the game is empty.

I think a gamer looking for a new game to play first looks at the art (screen shots, free trial), then shortly thereafter the gameplay and UI, then eventually the depth of content and game systems. I think DDO art is a little dated (More for pre-motu content), gameplay is pretty good, the UI is a little dated, and depth of content and game systems is pretty good compared to other games.

If it was my job to double or triple the DDO player base, first I would do an art pass on all older content including avatars, animations, effects, textures, etc with some experienced leads and a few interns to save money. I would use some art and engineering folks to spruce up and simplify the UI. I would also make sure the best low level content that a new player will see the first couple days is free to play and direct them with in game prompts to those quests. Then I would reach out to the bigger gamer sites and get some reviews and screen shots out there while advertising the "relaunch". The idea is that gamers looking for a new game see flashy art, good reviews, and really enjoy the first few hours or days that they are in the game to get hooked. Based on what I see players spending in the store, I suspect DDO players have a higher than industry average for money spent per player and a sizable increase in population could cover these costs and turn a nice profit.

[painkiller3]

Agree with you here and with Franohmsford's earlier post. Just make the obsolete heroic only content ftp or make a one of them the "free heroic pack of the week" say on a rotating schedule. It would also be good if some of the community were to mentor the "free pack of the week" if such a thing were implemented...

or do it like the cannith challenges where you can run one non-ftp quest a day (or save up your tokens a run a whole chain)

[tharveysinjin]

There is no way to save this game. Pay-to-Play is the disease and DDO is writhing in the throes of death.

[Chai]

Fail.

Without BB there is absolutely no reason at all to ever throw an LFM.
So how is having absolutely 0 LFMs is a good thing?

I don't agree here. Before this game had BB, the LFMs looked a lot healthier than they do now, and there was a much broader range of folks PUGing too.

[haulindonkey]

or do it like the cannith challenges where you can run one non-ftp quest a day (or save up your tokens a run a whole chain)

Now that sounds like a really good idea.

[Strider1963]

do you expect advanced players to nanny new players which join an adventure on elite difficulty? I started the game by running normal difficulty and advancing to hard and elite as my skill progressed, and I advise new players to do the same. It is the bravery bonus which forces new player to join adventure above their skill level. Maybe first and second lifers should get maximum bravery bonus for any difficulty, so they are not forced to join elite difficulty parties.

Im sorry, but this is exactly the kind of attitude that drives new players away. When I first started playing here (well before MOTU), there were always plenty of groups to join, and if you wound up in a group that was a little over your head, most ppl would try to help you, not watch you die and leave your soulstone there so you cant complete. Now, the game is "All About Me", no time to help or explain to a newb, just zerg through the quest and don't give a ****. The game will keep dying without new players, period......And all the ppl with op toons, and the best of equipment wont mean a darn thing when the game goes under....

[Holleyz]

One other thing they could do is to pay regular people to play the game and put up lfg's. Either pay them in moneys, turbine points, gear, adventure packs or something. Have people with characters levels 1 4 7 10 13 16 19 and 20 put up a lfg every quest they run or give the people a list of quests to put up a lfg for everyday and just run run run and re run them. You would think the (PLAYERS COUNCIL) Would or Should be doing this for free but I don't think those folks are doing much of anything at all.

[Sam1313]

One other thing they could do is to pay regular people to play the game and put up lfg's. Either pay them in moneys, turbine points, gear, adventure packs or something. Have people with characters levels 1 4 7 10 13 16 19 and 20 put up a lfg every quest they run or give the people a list of quests to put up a lfg for everyday and just run run run and re run them. You would think the (PLAYERS COUNCIL) Would or Should be doing this for free but I don't think those folks are doing much of anything at all.

Turbine and Wizards of the East Coast create and maintenance this game. It is actually our (The Players) responsibility to gather and keep new players. Either by word of mouth or posting something at your local gaming shop. You can even post a link to download the game on your Myspace page, Fakebook page, or Google page. Guild Leaders and Officers of the guild can also help out by posting LFG's. You could get a possible recruit but you definitely will get a long term player no matter what guild they choose to be in because this game IS addictive. Another thing that would help is do away with all the grinding for items and raise the drop rate of items.
I had talked a co-worker into trying the game out. He did create a character started him at level 7 and after 3 weeks of trying to get the silver longbow just gave up and never returned to the game again. His character sits now dead at level 10. I was unaware that the silver longbow was what he was trying to attain or else I would have farmed/purchased it for him just to keep him playing. I told him at work that I would help him farm it or just purchase it for him and he said to me: ""dude if trying to get a bow is that hard and takes that long to get then I don't even want to know what trying to get other items is like, especially the higher level gear. Besides that I have a life and work and kids I don't have the time you have to sit there hours on end farming for a digital item""
Another friend who is a professor at Purdue University had told me that most people make up their minds within the first 20 seconds of trying anything new. If a person gives anything longer than that they usually will go between 1 hour to 1 day if they feel they are not making progress then they will move on.
Just something to ponder on if anyone from the company actually reads these threads.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

I'm fairly certain that the layoffs had to do with them having reached a certain stage in a different department/project. Infinite Crisis is their current pet project and it should be nearing completion (last I paid attention).







1. Making the front half of the game free while paying for the top half is going to feel like bait and switch when people hit the paywall. The mixed approach sets expectations nicely from the outset, I think.



When level 20 was the cap, it still felt like a "bait and switch." You could really only progress so far on F2P without becoming Premium or VIP. When you hit that pay-wall, you either got really annoyed, or you shrugged and bought in.


How would raising the level for that pay-wall be any different for a new player?



My only concern is for the Premies who did pay for that content. They might feel raw if it goes free.

So... I approve ;)

[Powskier]

Guilds are the answer.Traditional place where adventurer gets help in the dice world,have turned into elite zoning clubs in ddo. Some players just dont know how to help others.There could be a newb bonus! +5 %xps for every adventurer class character in party at completion.Like others said,your ubber 80 life toon will be worth squat when this game shuts down ...so keep zergin ddo into the nether realms...just remember; you did it to yourselves!

[Powskier]

Personally I'm ready for something new. I have had enough fun on this hamster wheel.
Set an end date for DDO and begin production of DDO2. perhaps even allow those that pre-order to migrate up to 4 characters with some bonuses.
This way they could fix the fundamental problems inherent in the game and apply what they have learned from this one.
FTP should be temporary and limited. Get in, get a feel for the game, then pay if you want to keep playing.

epic TR is ddo2 or as close as it will ever get...they made a system that is pretty cool ,unless you did all heroic tr's already. Dont think for a second they'll scrap this system cause a few jaded players zerged through all their lives and constantly complain there is nothing to do.

[Singular]

pugs are dead, the economies dead, and no one wants to talk chat, even have a flame war in general of any and all zones. This is er is.

DDO is closed community based now, kinda like lotr, or really any mmo lol. Thank you come again.

I usually pug, so I don't agree with you.

And we need more players. Moar!!!

[Neomarica]

1st lifers dont need elite xps...it is favor and challenge that brings them into elite..as well as there are no ,non elite lfms. You cant imagine how many players I met that hate grouping because of how pompous vets interact...What are Guilds here for? to have elitists zone together and take a dump on every other player? sounds like what some think.Behavior like this ,would get you far not ,at a table game.

1st lifers absolutely DO need elite XP unless they're also spending money on the game already(either VIP/purchasing packs/purchasing expansions or XP tomes).

[Grahson]

Guilds are the answer.Traditional place where adventurer gets help in the dice world,have turned into elite zoning clubs in ddo. Some players just dont know how to help others.There could be a newb bonus! +5 %xps for every adventurer class character in party at completion.Like others said,your ubber 80 life toon will be worth squat when this game shuts down ...so keep zergin ddo into the nether realms...just remember; you did it to yourselves!

This!

[Grahson]

new players get an awful experience often in ddo. i seen my old dice buddies ,decide to try the game out,and sure as shoot ,the older experienced players end up zergin way past the newbs...they get little dungeon interaction and then dont quite know how to handle a stray mob.Hard to blame newbs,there are never normal difficulty runs in lfm. The ubber guilds are where ddo needs community help..not with EE raids;but with helping new player base integrate.Players say there are no lfm's ,yet they chase any newer players off with really rude group behaviors.

And this!

[Grahson]

I don't agree here. Before this game had BB, the LFMs looked a lot healthier than they do now, and there was a much broader range of folks PUGing too.

and this!

[Alisonique]

How about ADVERTISING ? the flaming game???

[Grahson]

Turbine and Wizards of the East Coast create and maintenance this game. It is actually our (The Players) responsibility to gather and keep new players. Either by word of mouth or posting something at your local gaming shop. You can even post a link to download the game on your Myspace page, Fakebook page, or Google page. Guild Leaders and Officers of the guild can also help out by posting LFG's. You could get a possible recruit but you definitely will get a long term player no matter what guild they choose to be in because this game IS addictive. Another thing that would help is do away with all the grinding for items and raise the drop rate of items.
I had talked a co-worker into trying the game out. He did create a character started him at level 7 and after 3 weeks of trying to get the silver longbow just gave up and never returned to the game again. His character sits now dead at level 10. I was unaware that the silver longbow was what he was trying to attain or else I would have farmed/purchased it for him just to keep him playing. I told him at work that I would help him farm it or just purchase it for him and he said to me: ""dude if trying to get a bow is that hard and takes that long to get then I don't even want to know what trying to get other items is like, especially the higher level gear. Besides that I have a life and work and kids I don't have the time you have to sit there hours on end farming for a digital item""
Another friend who is a professor at Purdue University had told me that most people make up their minds within the first 20 seconds of trying anything new. If a person gives anything longer than that they usually will go between 1 hour to 1 day if they feel they are not making progress then they will move on.
Just something to ponder on if anyone from the company actually reads these threads.

Have to agree here I've been trying to get the shard for the envenomed blade since it came out, lol.

[Jatner]

My thoughts on what has been posted so far:

Rather than give new players a hidden 10% xp boost, how about having the Jeets quest provide a lesser xp potion? It would be more in keeping with the D&D ethos and would negate the issue of the xp boost suddenly ending without them realising.

I like the idea of having 'Veteran guide' pugs for low level content but those veterans would need an incentive to sacrifice a character slot and time they could be spending developing their mains.

Finally, in the UK I have seen adverts for WoW, Diablo SWTOR and many others, but never any advertising for DDO. Without advertising, how are people going to know about the game to try it out in the first place?

[Mandelia]

I would log on to play instead of respond to this thread, but since this is off hours there is nothing going on there anyways. And there are a LOT of off hours . . .

This game has become hopelessly and needlessly too complicated for the casual player. It relies far too much on word of mouth teaching to learn how to play the game. There is nothing 'intuitive' about this game and it is becoming even less so as time goes on. There is no 'player's handbook' to teach anyone anything on how things works beyond the silly prompts in Korthos that hardly teaches you to swim when thrown immediately in the deep end of complicated stacking bonuses and multi-class character design. I've lost count of the times older players come back to the game, say hi, how this game makes no sense anymore, and their characters are all helplessly broken. Rather than go through the Master's Degree level of material that they have to DIG UP from the wiki or net, they let their eyes glaze over, say have a nice life and putter off to games that take less effort than a surgical residency.

You have the hardcores left then. The addicts who have invested so much time in the game that it would seem tragic to throw it all away. The ones who are actually harming their lives to throw away countless hours on a game at some point wake up and realize they wasting their time and go play Candy Crush or some no-brainer, thus the pool of talent grows ever smaller as new players come in and are instantly alienated by hopelessly counter-intuitive game mechanics. This game is on a downward spiral from this imbalance, and any amount of rhetoric isn't going to save it. Merging the servers would go along way towards making to ones who stay happier but that isn't really a priority at all. Creating a hamster wheel grind seems to be the tactic for keeping us, but with no one to share the grind with, it is becoming more and more pointless as time dwindles these servers to oblivion.

[BigErkyKid]

I had talked a co-worker into trying the game out. He did create a character started him at level 7 and after 3 weeks of trying to get the silver longbow just gave up and never returned to the game again. His character sits now dead at level 10. I was unaware that the silver longbow was what he was trying to attain or else I would have farmed/purchased it for him just to keep him playing. I told him at work that I would help him farm it or just purchase it for him and he said to me: ""dude if trying to get a bow is that hard and takes that long to get then I don't even want to know what trying to get other items is like, especially the higher level gear. Besides that I have a life and work and kids I don't have the time you have to sit there hours on end farming for a digital item""


The problem I have with low drop rates is that they encourage item farming. Item farming is rather boring, but in DDO it is all there is to do together with PLs farming in the long run.

The key issue for me is of course the lack of new content. If every week a new pack with new loot was released, then drop rates could be much higher or guaranteed. However, they need to provide us reason to play quests constantly for months. Since replay value is low, they need to provide meta reasons. Loot and XP.

This for me is the inherent flaw in the design of theme park MMOs. How many people can you convince to replay for the sake of in game power? In DDO the answer is not that many.

PVP, sandbox, collective goals, randomization... those trump pure grind. In DDO we just have that, pure grind in a game that has as its main appeal for many people its DnD origin.

[BigErkyKid]

This game has become hopelessly and needlessly too complicated for the casual player.

It is too complicated, but the complication lays on being able to distinguish the rubbish options from the good choices. A lotof rubbish still coded in the game:

1. Feats: a lot of them are completely useless.
2. Spells: the majority are never used.
3. Class abilities: a good amount of them are useless by now. Bards have had very underwhelming abolities for years.
4. Classes: some are clearly superior to others.

So someone playing the game is not facing the dilemma between investing in wiki hours and finding a top multiclass option or going for a simple solid pure build. Rather, they need to understand that the game is filled with traps that are presented as viable options. Starting from the pre made leveling paths from the IG suggestions on the choices to make.

Aside from character creation, a lot of quests and raids have completely unintuitive mechanics that are learnt from repetition and the wiki. From IG maps that are simply newbie torture devices to completely useless wilderness areas that get new players lost.

The problem is that this game is run by a small group of devs that have inherited a gigantic old starship plagued with abandoned sections, broken systems and dwelled by deadly creatures. They need to clean up the game if they expect us to believe that they are heading somewhere else than maintenance. Because when maintenance becomes obvious, people cut down spending and move somewhere else. Who wants to stay in a sinking ship? No thank you!

[janave]

Create adventures like Study in Sable manor, Haunted Halls, these are the closest resembling D&Dish game sessions. Make big adventures with lots of optionals and intricate details, alternate paths, choices that are meaningful and character impacting.

I also liked the way litany was build with optionals, kinda expected it best of all necro4, in my opinion huge missed opportunity to get a ton of replay value into the epic mod. Tho, i personally would have linked up the dungeon so if you choose 1 boss you may still get the other 3 just maybe with a different route.

Also, DDO has built in stealth, use it more in dungeon desing, very few games on the mmo market offers stealth play. Lots of options are still open, but it takes a strong vision to lead game dev of games like DDO.

That aside: I also play PUG 99%, yes, lots of the same faces and the group may stick together for mutliple dungeons. I also get to group with new players, tho its way more common in the lower levels.

[Bargol]

It is too complicated, but the complication lays on being able to distinguish the rubbish options from the good choices. A lotof rubbish still coded in the game:

1. Feats: a lot of them are completely useless.
2. Spells: the majority are never used.
3. Class abilities: a good amount of them are useless by now. Bards have had very underwhelming abolities for years.
4. Classes: some are clearly superior to others.

So someone playing the game is not facing the dilemma between investing in wiki hours and finding a top multiclass option or going for a simple solid pure build. Rather, they need to understand that the game is filled with traps that are presented as viable options. Starting from the pre made leveling paths from the IG suggestions on the choices to make.

Aside from character creation, a lot of quests and raids have completely unintuitive mechanics that are learnt from repetition and the wiki. From IG maps that are simply newbie torture devices to completely useless wilderness areas that get new players lost.

The problem is that this game is run by a small group of devs that have inherited a gigantic old starship plagued with abandoned sections, broken systems and dwelled by deadly creatures. They need to clean up the game if they expect us to believe that they are heading somewhere else than maintenance. Because when maintenance becomes obvious, people cut down spending and move somewhere else. Who wants to stay in a sinking ship? No thank you!

The game is based on Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 rule set. Things that you call junk or rubbish are from that rule set. The devs have already moved so far from DnD that doing anymore they might as well rename the game to "Generic MMO trying to be WOW".

[BigErkyKid]

The game is based on Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 rule set. Things that you call junk or rubbish are from that rule set. The devs have already moved so far from DnD that doing anymore they might as well rename the game to "Generic MMO trying to be WOW".

Yes, in that rule set they make a lot more sense than in DDO's context.

Everyone knows that a lot of the options are so outdated that they are simply a trap for new players.

I am at the vanguard of those claiming for this to be more like DnD. This is the single reason why I still play this game.

But this does not blind me to the point of defending keeping outdated choices as booby traps for rookies.

[Nahiz]

When someone mentions the new player experience, someone else invariably says something to this effect how its not their responsibility. That much is true, a vet has no obligation to slow down their questing for a new player. However, back when many vets joined the game there were far more new players joining the game at the same time. New players who didn't want to lead their own pugs could reliably group with other new players and learn the game at their own pace. Now there aren't "Stay Together, Roles" LFMs (used to be a thing) put up alongside the "Zerg BYOH" LFMs, zerg is just the standard.

The gaming environment used to naturally had enough variety in available LFMs and players that new players could find groups that went their own pace and develop their skills in a social setting. That environment is gone, so the new player is forced with either going alone, or enduring a constantly feeling like dead weight. Removing bravery bonus would help reduce the issue of elite only LFMs being a barrier to new players, but that alone won't fix the issue of the population not having enough positive churn to support a preponderance of new player oriented groups. People join MMOs to play with others and so this changed dynamic is an understandable factor in the inability to recruit and retain new players. The only mechanism left to affect this particular factor contributing to player decline (not to say there are not many other factors this won't address) is for vets to take some responsibility in easing new players into the game, something some understandably don't want to spend their limited game time doing.

Well said.

[Nahiz]

Fail.

Without BB there is absolutely no reason at all to ever throw an LFM.
So how is having absolutely 0 LFMs is a good thing?

Fail. There were lots of LFM before BB. Take into account we are talking newbies/casual here.

[MagicBlue]

New players in a 8-year games cannot find nothing different that millions of veterans ignoring them.
There is no time to help. Not much at least.

I am sure that if i played a Cleric 3-4 and l put an LFM like: "Veteran healer helps new players to quest: only new players, please. Slow pace, quick fun, full explanations "
it should take 3 seconds to fill the party.

And after WW, STK and Depths these new players become "permanent".
This is life for the game as it was in 2007.

[iRexxar]

I've posted this before and i'll post it again

DDO IS DEAD DUE TO THEIR UPDATES THAT STARTED IN MoTu, killing EVERY SINGLE OLD CONTENT and to get even worst, after the release of FoT, they announed a new expansion pack, to break even more the game and its old content.

Not to mention the "RAID BY-PASSES" that killed any challeneged of the game. Top chars took months to complete, now it takes few weeks.

DDO is now a copy of wow and its doomed. Sorry to tell you that.

Cya and gl.

[BigErkyKid]

New players in a 8-year games cannot find nothing different that millions of veterans ignoring them.
There is no time to help. Not much at least.

I am sure that if i played a Cleric 3-4 and l put an LFM like: "Veteran healer helps new players to quest: only new players, please. Slow pace, quick fun, full explanations "
it should take 3 seconds to fill the party.

And after WW, STK and Depths these new players become "permanent".
This is life for the game as it was in 2007.

Then do it.

But you won't. Because doing this once in a while might be OK, but after you have run those quests 100 times the last thing you want is to spend 1 hour doing each one of them.

Replay value is the bane of a lot of these iniciatives.

[antirleic]

new players get an awful experience often in ddo. i seen my old dice buddies ,decide to try the game out,and sure as shoot ,the older experienced players end up zergin way past the newbs...they get little dungeon interaction and then dont quite know how to handle a stray mob.Hard to blame newbs,there are never normal difficulty runs in lfm. The ubber guilds are where ddo needs community help..not with EE raids;but with helping new player base integrate.Players say there are no lfm's ,yet they chase any newer players off with really rude group behaviors.


A lot of good points here but the real reason we (people that actually played D&D, I've played since before it went hard cover) was for fun. More of a hobby. Unfortunately this is not what DDO has become. Yes I know it's a video game, but it's not a game that you win and that's how it's being treated now. People in my age group also have the most disposable income. We are turned off by this kind of competition thing, my toon is greater than your toon. Running thru quests as fast as you can, this xp per minute thing. Sorry but this is not what D&D was intended to be and it turns us off. When I first started playing this there where a lot of people who just had fun playing. They where not concerned with just running for xp as fast as they could to tr over and over. They played had fun helped others anyway they could and the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lives still came and went.

So what's your goal to be bored? Run everything as fast as possible get your toon to a point where you can or think you can solo all the ee's and then get on the forum and complain that you're tired of the game and want it made more difficult just for you. See the problem yet?

This is accurate for me (probably not for most). I'm not a big "MMO" style player. I tried WoW, but I hate committing time to play that mirrors factory work. I play RPG to enjoy the story and the challenge. I'm one of the weird DDO players who likes to go through EVERY quest, short, medium... all of them. I like to read the the dialogs. I like to look at the graphics. I'm a casual player... this doesn't mean I wont spend time playing (I will occasionally spend a 4-6 hour clip on the weekend), but I don't want to play a video game job.

With that said, my biggest problem with DDO has been the Eberon setting. I grew up on Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and especially Forgotten Realms. The Steam Punk thing is a pretty big turn off. Now that the Forgotten Realms has arrived, I'm pretty excited, but its content is soooo high level, that its tough to get up that high being a casual player. Also, the crafting system is archaic.... Otherwise, I do like this game, just not newbie friendly, and not really something old school D&D people are going to see and say "Ah, thats Shadowdale!". More likely to say "How did I end up in Shadowrun?"

[Grahson]

Lots of great points in this thread, some great discussion. Now you're probably not going to like this but here goes. Here's another problem that I've run into new players, yes new players. Recruited lots of them into our guild and helped them out as much as we could only to have them run some of the free content and never be seen again. Gets old puts you off helping the new players after a while. Don't get me wrong I'm all for helping them but when this happens again and again. Now I know not everyone who tries it is going to stick around, but the numbers that do this are staggering. Just saying it's not all vets not willing to be helpful. I have not given up however I plan to tr a toon soon just to look for new players at the lower lvls. My plan is to meet some new people and have some fun.

[FranOhmsford]

Create adventures like Study in Sable manor, Haunted Halls, these are the closest resembling D&Dish game sessions. Make big adventures with lots of optionals and intricate details, alternate paths, choices that are meaningful and character impacting.

Study in Sable's brilliant!

However: Haunted Halls may have this D&D exploration feel if you run it solo your first time BUT once that first run is done it's just another Zerg Fest!


I also liked the way litany was build with optionals, kinda expected it best of all necro4, in my opinion huge missed opportunity to get a ton of replay value into the epic mod. Tho, i personally would have linked up the dungeon so if you choose 1 boss you may still get the other 3 just maybe with a different route.

Litany's a perfect quest {the optionals however could do with being toned down slightly on Heroic and the Devs should give us an Epic Version where the optionals are truly insane!

[Uska]

This is accurate for me (probably not for most). I'm not a big "MMO" style player. I tried WoW, but I hate committing time to play that mirrors factory work. I play RPG to enjoy the story and the challenge. I'm one of the weird DDO players who likes to go through EVERY quest, short, medium... all of them. I like to read the the dialogs. I like to look at the graphics. I'm a casual player... this doesn't mean I wont spend time playing (I will occasionally spend a 4-6 hour clip on the weekend), but I don't want to play a video game job.

With that said, my biggest problem with DDO has been the Eberon setting. I grew up on Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and especially Forgotten Realms. The Steam Punk thing is a pretty big turn off. Now that the Forgotten Realms has arrived, I'm pretty excited, but its content is soooo high level, that its tough to get up that high being a casual player. Also, the crafting system is archaic.... Otherwise, I do like this game, just not newbie friendly, and not really something old school D&D people are going to see and say "Ah, thats Shadowdale!". More likely to say "How did I end up in Shadowrun?"

FR has me wanting to play less I don't touch the content there and hope we don't get much more but I am afraid we will, I wouldn't mind seeing some Greyhawk though. As to Old school not recognizing shadowdale your right since I never went there and never desired to I think Eberron is more fun and unique than anything in the realms and other than them coming up with a completely original setting was the best idea they had.

[FranOhmsford]

Yes, in that rule set they make a lot more sense than in DDO's context.

Everyone knows that a lot of the options are so outdated that they are simply a trap for new players.

I am at the vanguard of those claiming for this to be more like DnD. This is the single reason why I still play this game.

But this does not blind me to the point of defending keeping outdated choices as booby traps for rookies.

It would be simple to fix some of these too:

Acrobatic
Merge with Skill Foci: Jump and Tumble for +5 to both skills!

Athletic
Merge with Skill Foci: Balance and Swim for +5 to both skills!

Nimble Fingers
Merge with Skill Foci: Disable and Open Lock for +5 to both skills!

Alertness
Merge with Skill Foci: Listen and Spot for +5 to both skills!

Remove the Skill Foci from the game!

[antirleic]

Lots of great points in this thread, some great discussion. Now you're probably not going to like this but here goes. Here's another problem that I've run into new players, yes new players. Recruited lots of them into our guild and helped them out as much as we could only to have them run some of the free content and never be seen again. Gets old puts you off helping the new players after a while. Don't get me wrong I'm all for helping them but when this happens again and again. Now I know not everyone who tries it is going to stick around, but the numbers that do this are staggering. Just saying it's not all vets not willing to be helpful. I have not given up however I plan to tr a toon soon just to look for new players at the lower lvls. My plan is to meet some new people and have some fun.

Well, its not other players responsibility to make the bar lower.... The problem is that new players come in, get up to about level 7, and then the world becomes very big, and very confusing. Its around level 7 when you begin to realize that this MMO is going to become a "work from home" MMO. I'm not sure how to fix it, other than presenting players with NPC companions that may be linked to story lines... that will allow for groups of 1-3 players instead of trying to encourage groups of 3-6.

[BigErkyKid]

It would be simple to fix some of these too:

Acrobatic
Merge with Skill Foci: Jump and Tumble for +5 to both skills!

Athletic
Merge with Skill Foci: Balance and Swim for +5 to both skills!

Nimble Fingers
Merge with Skill Foci: Disable and Open Lock for +5 to both skills!

Alertness
Merge with Skill Foci: Listen and Spot for +5 to both skills!

Remove the Skill Foci from the game!

They don't fix it because DDO is a giant mess. Instead of keeping the game clean as they advanced they kept adding pieces on top of the other.

Now they don't have the manpower to look back and fix all the broken systems. Does it even matter? new players are a rarity in this game.

They twitch things to keep vets somehow interested and let a large part of the actual game go to waste.

[antirleic]

FR has me wanting to play less I don't touch the content there and hope we don't get much more but I am afraid we will, I wouldn't mind seeing some Greyhawk though. As to Old school not recognizing shadowdale your right since I never went there and never desired to I think Eberron is more fun and unique than anything in the realms and other than them coming up with a completely original setting was the best idea they had.

Never said people don't like Steam Punk.... Eberron not really original. It pushed DDO into a bizarre fantasy genre, one that doesn't have $10's of millions of dollars in sales (which speaks to brand identity). Whether you hate it, or I like it, its more about "What will people draw to". I think Steam Punk is just niche and off putting to people who actively seek D&D as opposed to other MMO (hence the failure of other tech looking D&D franchises like Spelljammer, etc..).

[Grahson]

"work from home" MMO.

Just thought I'd thro that out there. Your "work from home" MMO. kinda sums up this game lol.

[8rad]

BB is really killing pug participation. Every pug is elite only. If there are pugs for normal/hard no one joins so they dont break the streak.

It would have been impossible to predict that the BB was going to affect the game in such a negative way, but it has. I know it wont happen but if the BB was eliminated I think it would be a good start to reviving the pug scene.

[Sam1313]

I agree with a lot of these posts, I'm 39 years old. I grew up playing AD&D 2E. You know back when you had to calculate THAC0. Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft was the coolest places I had ever been. I stumbled upon DDO over 3 years ago. At the time I was playing World Of Warcraft (Wrath of the lich king) Anyways I stopped playing WoW all together and concentrated on DDO just because it had the Dungeons & Dragons Name and I was thinking it would be like the pen and paper version I had come to love. I will admit DDO is fun. Its addictive. But the Eberron setting and the steam punk stuff and especially the Warforged and the Shadar Kai is a HUGE turnoff for me. No disrespect to any WF or SK out there but in my minds eye D&D is Medieval setting, maybe earlier. Robots and Punks in those times just cannot be. Sorry.

[Angelic-council]

Yeah, well.. very easy to say this. It would be much harder if we were developers. Those people who work at turbine surely doing their best under the boss commend. I personally don't think this f2p until 13? 14? will do any good to new players. We have an issue with the end game, not first few lvls. There are enought quests for new players to enjoy and level. But what happens after. imagine you just found this new game, everything is good until you realize how much afford you have to put into the game.. I need to buy TP? I need to TR? and this bugged, that bugged.. Yuk! Who wants that. I know there is better solution to this, a lot of people "knew".. where more than half of those people now.. they quit. -.-

[Powskier]

Lots of great points in this thread, some great discussion. Now you're probably not going to like this but here goes. Here's another problem that I've run into new players, yes new players. Recruited lots of them into our guild and helped them out as much as we could only to have them run some of the free content and never be seen again. Gets old puts you off helping the new players after a while. Don't get me wrong I'm all for helping them but when this happens again and again. Now I know not everyone who tries it is going to stick around, but the numbers that do this are staggering. Just saying it's not all vets not willing to be helpful. I have not given up however I plan to tr a toon soon just to look for new players at the lower lvls. My plan is to meet some new people and have some fun.

agreed,but no newbs would stay, if they never got help....i'm battin 1 for 30 or 40 on this point of helpin newbs who stay around ,unfortunately...but i did notice the free players often never upgrade or come back...so ill offer them help less than a vip now.The vips who need help are often forgotten in a huge guild..there goes that buff button raisin its head again...join guilds who help,there are some!