The Barb tree proposals are lazy, broken, misguided & ignore the class's d&d history

[Yellowmace]

This is buy far the worst class revamp suggestions that I have seen in 8 years.

Those who followed the Hamp thread breaking the Hamp system and ignoring all calls to stop it saw this coming.

Turbine has to get someone with a real understanding and appreciation of the Barbarian class on it's development and move the individuals currently tasked to it move to a subject better suited to their experience and strengths.

This is Tremendously disappointing, especially in light of the excellent work done on the bard trees. The Bard work showed that Turbine does have staff that understand the game and the classes, but for some reason has failed to reproduce that success.

Put simply, Barbarians are damage dealing toons eschewing all else in the pursuit of damage and defeating whatever foe they face. They do not succeed because they have so much healing that they simply bore the opponent to death by with endless hit points. NO, the succeed because they KILL the opponent with top tier damage while surviving long enough to do that with assorted inhuman resistance and will power.

Start over Turbine, do not foist this class abortion on the players. Better yet read and become familiar with the source material regarding the class and then start over.

[Uska]

In my mind this is setting a tend that's going to end up worse than NGE did for SWG

[jalont]

In my mind this is setting a tend that's going to end up worse than NGE did for SWG

Ugh, you've been saying this for years.

The first problem most people don't understand is that barbs can never be top-tier dps. Never ever ever. The way the game is setup now, Caster/archers can oneshot trash from a distance in the "hardest" content. Barbs can literally do 10 billion damage a swing, and their DPS would still be too low to be the mana sponges that they are.

[Tscheuss]

It is true that barb dps should be the highest of any class except a rogue SA, but there is a trend toward giving all classes the self-healing of Wolverine (hyperbole, I know, but why should I be left out of the fun). Personally, I believe DDO should go back to the classic 4-class interdependence of D&D. I know that isn't going to happen, though. As the saying goes, "Everybody wants to be [Michael] Jordan."

A barb cleaving with a great-axe should be separating body parts left and right. :)

[alvarego]

This is buy far the worst class revamp suggestions that I have seen in 8 years.

Those who followed the Hamp thread breaking the Hamp system and ignoring all calls to stop it saw this coming.

Turbine has to get someone with a real understanding and appreciation of the Barbarian class on it's development and move the individuals currently tasked to it move to a subject better suited to their experience and strengths.

This is Tremendously disappointing, especially in light of the excellent work done on the bard trees. The Bard work showed that Turbine does have staff that understand the game and the classes, but for some reason has failed to reproduce that success.

Put simply, Barbarians are damage dealing toons eschewing all else in the pursuit of damage and defeating whatever foe they face. They do not succeed because they have so much healing that they simply bore the opponent to death by with endless hit points. NO, the succeed because they KILL the opponent with top tier damage while surviving long enough to do that with assorted inhuman resistance and will power.

Start over Turbine, do not foist this class abortion on the players. Better yet read and become familiar with the source material regarding the class and then start over.

For starters I would say that work done with bard is great for player fun but terribly mistaken from a roleplay point of view, basicaly they made bards butchering hyperactive butchering machines, being the best damage dealer in a group has never been the roleplay of a bard in D&D, yeah is fun but it's wrong, but in a a place where there's so many wrong things *shrug*

About barbarians, I agree on your adjetives to the new revamp, Barbarians are known for being used to suffer pain ans shrug off it ... but on the other hand in a sooo much broken from a D&D perspective game what could you posibly do?, damage reduction has a sense when bigger damage a melee player can expect in final game is around 20, when that damage scales to 1k+ what damage reduction you need? is all too broken to start now with roleplay, add to this the damage by any ability source, dodge, PRR + MRR, melee + range power ... etc etc etc etc

Good bye to the simplicity of D&D say hello to the mess :D

[Hendrik]

In my mind this is setting a tend that's going to end up worse than NGE did for SWG

Uska, I was there for that, the NGE, and left because of it.

Don't think Turbine has it within them to do what Sony did.

BTW, pre-NGE a server is STILL out there and running! Played last week as a matter of fact and while a bit dated, still a whole lot of fun!

[Hendrik]

It is true that barb dps should be the highest of any class except a rogue SA, but there is a trend toward giving all classes the self-healing of Wolverine (hyperbole, I know, but why should I be left out of the fun). Personally, I believe DDO should go back to the classic 4-class interdependence of D&D. I know that isn't going to happen, though. As the saying goes, "Everybody wants to be [Michael] Jordan."

A barb cleaving with a great-axe should be separating body parts left and right. :)

You are not alone!!!!


Everyone wants to be the solo hero vs the group being the hero's.

[Angelic-council]

Don't forget about FvS too. AoV currently have only single SLA (summon archon), even tho, it's an old one.. nothing original.. People say FvS get wings? they have reflex save? It's a joke.. every divines can easily access to wing feature thanks to EA. Clerics have unique SLAs, much higher will, fortitude save.. SP is not a problem at all. Devs ruined it or whoever responsible for the ideas.

[jalont]

It is true that barb dps should be the highest of any class except a rogue SA, but there is a trend toward giving all classes the self-healing of Wolverine (hyperbole, I know, but why should I be left out of the fun). Personally, I believe DDO should go back to the classic 4-class interdependence of D&D. I know that isn't going to happen, though. As the saying goes, "Everybody wants to be [Michael] Jordan."

A barb cleaving with a great-axe should be separating body parts left and right. :)

Exactly, it's NOT going to happen, so there's no reason to pretend it is. Either take away self-healing from arcanes, remove BF and cocoon, or give barbs self healing.

[Munkenmo]

Ugh, you've been saying this for years.

The first problem most people don't understand is that barbs can never be top-tier dps. Never ever ever. The way the game is setup now, Caster/archers can oneshot trash from a distance in the "hardest" content. Barbs can literally do 10 billion damage a swing, and their DPS would still be too low to be the mana sponges that they are.

Really? You're exagerrating and failing to think outside the box.

One easy solution would be to add a proc to surpeme cleave, you damage enemy monsters for 5-10-20% of their total HP (red/purple would be immune)

It's not hard to balance barbs in the current game, the days of clinging to d&d rules for balance have sadly long since passed.

[Blackheartox]

(red/purple would be immune)




Bet you 100$ if they added this that they wouldnt be til first patch ;)

[DarthCaedus]

Don't forget about FvS too. AoV currently have only single SLA (summon archon), even tho, it's an old one.. nothing original.. People say FvS get wings? they have reflex save? It's a joke.. every divines can easily access to wing feature thanks to EA. Clerics have unique SLAs, much higher will, fortitude save.. SP is not a problem at all. Devs ruined it or whoever responsible for the ideas.

Favored soul is still much better than cleric. The sp regen that a favored soul gets more than makes up for the loss of SLAs.

[Angelic-council]

Favored soul is still much better than cleric. The sp regen that a favored soul gets more than makes up for the loss of SLAs.

I believe you taking about "just reward".. It's a temporal SP. It's quite useful if you are shiradi. But, if you looking for a specific build, there is an option to multi class. 2 lvls in FvS give away "just reward" and "scourge". In the end, Clrs get heavy armor, +5 will save, +4 fortitude save, more spell choices, also, straight wisdom focus allow clrs to maximize their SP.

It's all good, there should be a difference between those two. But, giving away class feature is too much. In another thread, a lot of people agreed on adding summon archon in EA destiny.. -.- good thing that developers didn't do it.

In 2015 we will see new FvS tree, let's hope for that to be good.

[Munkenmo]

Bet you 100$ if they added this that they wouldnt be til first patch ;)

I call second patch, more money made from LR'ing that way.

[Uska]

Ugh, you've been saying this for years.

The first problem most people don't understand is that barbs can never be top-tier dps. Never ever ever. The way the game is setup now, Caster/archers can oneshot trash from a distance in the "hardest" content. Barbs can literally do 10 billion damage a swing, and their DPS would still be too low to be the mana sponges that they are.

Still doesn't justify giving them better self-heals than monks

This game isn't dungeon and dragons online any more the name needs to be changed to

Ever increasing fantasy power creep online

[Uska]

Uska, I was there for that, the NGE, and left because of it.

Don't think Turbine has it within them to do what Sony did.

BTW, pre-NGE a server is STILL out there and running! Played last week as a matter of fact and while a bit dated, still a whole lot of fun!

No this is worse than NGE in my mind and yeah I was there for it and yeah I tried the emulator but like they say you can never go back.

The reason I say it's worse is we are supposed to be based on a real set of rules and SWG wasn't

[theRolf]

No this is worse than NGE in my mind and yeah I was there for it and yeah I tried the emulator but like they say you can never go back.

The reason I say it's worse is we are supposed to be based on a real set of rules and SWG wasn't

Please, when you can, articulate the reasons why improving the barb class is equivalent to the NGE that supposedly killed another game that I have never played. Please use reasoning instead of posturing or scare tactics, if you don't mind.

Thanks

[FranOhmsford]

Put simply, Barbarians are damage dealing toons eschewing all else in the pursuit of damage and defeating whatever foe they face. They do not succeed because they have so much healing that they simply bore the opponent to death by with endless hit points. NO, the succeed because they KILL the opponent with top tier damage while surviving long enough to do that with assorted inhuman resistance and will power.


Uh NO!

That is an MMO min/max explanation that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Barbarian Lore in D&D!

Barbarians are a Sub-Race in D&D that first got turned into a "Kit" or "Prestige" then became a Class later on!


Go elsewhere than D&D and you'll find there's far more to a Barbarian than simply dealing "MASSIVE" Damage - Conan was a Thief for instance!


We've gotta move away from this MMO thinking that has made the Devs do something so ridiculous as adding 400 unneeded HP and stupid amounts of Heal amp to all 3 Barb Trees!

[Uska]

Please, when you can, articulate the reasons why improving the barb class is equivalent to the NGE that supposedly killed another game that I have never played. Please use reasoning instead of posturing or scare tactics, if you don't mind.

Thanks

Chief component of NGE was simplifying and dumbing down of game and making the classes more and more alike

You can barely recognize our origins now

[FranOhmsford]

being the best damage dealer in a group has never been the roleplay of a bard in D&D, yeah is fun but it's wrong

You've never heard of "Blades" then I take it?

Bards who specialize in Sword dancing!


Don't get me wrong - Swashbuckler should not have been a Bard Pre - It should have been a Harper Style Pre available to a select few Classes {Fighter, Rogue, Bard} with a minimum 6 level requirement in that class to avoid 1 or 2 level splashing.


But can we please stop with this MMO thinking where every class has it's place!

[Qhualor]

Uh NO!

That is an MMO min/max explanation that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Barbarian Lore in D&D!

Barbarians are a Sub-Race in D&D that first got turned into a "Kit" or "Prestige" then became a Class later on!


Go elsewhere than D&D and you'll find there's far more to a Barbarian than simply dealing "MASSIVE" Damage - Conan was a Thief for instance!


We've gotta move away from this MMO thinking that has made the Devs do something so ridiculous as adding 400 unneeded HP and stupid amounts of Heal amp to all 3 Barb Trees!

there actually have been some suggestions

1. enhancements that boost healing from pots. instead of all over the place in the tree, its an enhancement with 3 tiers.

2. vampirism enhancements that actually scale well in the game. we got that, although don't know how well.

3. create new potions that are barb only and not available to any other class with no penalties and heal for something similar to SF pots. didn't think that would be possible.

4. heroic version of Fast Healing that scales well for the game. this I thought Sev would do and it fits the theme.

5. more and better temporary hit point procs. we got that.

there were other ideas thrown around but Sev listened when Silver and a bunch of us were discussing improvements in this thread https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446013-Project-Barbarian?highlight=barbarian

I don't know which PnP you play, but it depends on the prestige what kind of barbarian it is. OS wouldn't be considered max dps, but FB would be. if you look up the forums on PnP DnD sites you see people talking about barbarians and the different prestiges.

[FranOhmsford]

there actually have been some suggestions

1. enhancements that boost healing from pots. instead of all over the place in the tree, its an enhancement with 3 tiers.

2. vampirism enhancements that actually scale well in the game. we got that, although don't know how well.

3. create new potions that are barb only and not available to any other class with no penalties and heal for something similar to SF pots. didn't think that would be possible.

4. heroic version of Fast Healing that scales well for the game. this I thought Sev would do and it fits the theme.

5. more and better temporary hit point procs. we got that.

These are all about HP and Healing though.

Where are the suggestions for mitigation like DR and Uncanny Dodge - You know...Actual Barbarian abilities in D&D Lore!


there were other ideas thrown around but Sev listened when Silver and a bunch of us were discussing improvements in this thread https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446013-Project-Barbarian?highlight=barbarian

Seemingly he either didn't listen hard enough or these changes are your fault - Which is it?


I don't know which PnP you play, but it depends on the prestige what kind of barbarian it is. OS wouldn't be considered max dps, but FB would be. if you look up the forums on PnP DnD sites you see people talking about barbarians and the different prestiges.

You see - I have absolutely no interest in going to those sites and reading what min/maxers have to say!

And D&D died 15 years ago!

DDO works because it's an MMO rather than PnP - 3rd Ed was an abomination! 3.5 is a min/maxers Paradise!

Unfortunately the min/maxers have infiltrated DDO and pushed the Devs into a corner - Now the Devs are reduced to adding the exact same HP {completely unnecessary!} and Heal amp {Lore breaking} bonuses to ALL 3 Barb Trees!


Like Fighters, Rogues and Clerics the 3 Barb Trees should offer significantly different game-play options!
Because there's not just the one Barbarian Archetype out there!

Ravager was probably a mistake as thematically it's too similar to FB AND is an Evil Archetype which DDO shouldn't be using!

Berserker is as Berserker does but again - Conan was NOT a Berserker so I don't get where this insistence on all Barbs being Conan has come from!

Occult Slayer at least should have offered us a viable alternative to Berserker but it literally plays exactly the same because the Devs decided to do away with Prestiges and make us all Generic!


The biggest problem with DDO now is that we HAVE to multiclass or play specific races to play what would in PnP be PURE Builds available to multiple races!

Want to play a Barbarian with a Bow - You're going to HAVE to take Ranger levels
Want to play a Shield maiden or Viking Warrior - You're going to HAVE to take Fighter levels!
Want to play a Battle Cleric - Fighter or Paladin levels {probably both these days!}!
Want to play an Archmage - Be Warforged/Bladeforged OR a bleedin' Zombie!
Want to play a Wolf form Druid - Monk levels
Want to play a Bear - Rofl!
Want to play a Rogue Acrobat - Monk levels again
Want to play an AA - Monk AGAIN!

Some of these are Lore Breakers too!

Monastic Druids? - Are you kidding me Turbine!
Ten Thousand Stars and Manyshot SHOULD be on the SAME Timer - Why has this not been done already!?!

[jalont]

Still doesn't justify giving them better self-heals than monks

This game isn't dungeon and dragons online any more the name needs to be changed to

Ever increasing fantasy power creep online

Look, at the basic level, I agree with you, but at the same time, the game is the way it is based on player-driven nonsense. The game is a byoh zergfest because that's what the players demanded. It wasn't pushed upon us. There's no point trying to change it. DDO isn't going to attract new players, and trying to change the playerbase will just kill it.

We have what we have. Might as well make it the best version of what it is because trying to balance things against the way it used to be is pointless and will leave us with completely useless classes.

[Braegan]

The best (lore wise and game wise) change I see so far is the Fast Healing (I think in the FB tree?). That makes sense and is a great concept. The Ravager one is silly and off the charts, as mentioned Barbs are not Vampires. The answer would be in more Fast Healing/Regening effects and more DR/PRR/MRR/Dodge. That's in the barb spirit without going full blown cheese.

[Uska]

Look, at the basic level, I agree with you, but at the same time, the game is the way it is based on player-driven nonsense. The game is a byoh zergfest because that's what the players demanded. It wasn't pushed upon us. There's no point trying to change it. DDO isn't going to attract nsew players, and trying to change the playerbase will just kill it.

We have what we have. Might as well make it the best version of what it is because trying to balance things against the way it used to be is pointless and will leave us with completely useless classes.

I wish I knew about this destruction of the game before I renewed my sub for 15 months though I would have saved that money and about 300 bucks I spent on other items and just moved on now I will stay for a bit since I paid for it but I will rant and race about every bit of power creeping nonsense they do

[Qhualor]

These are all about HP and Healing though.

Where are the suggestions for mitigation like DR and Uncanny Dodge - You know...Actual Barbarian abilities in D&D Lore!



Seemingly he either didn't listen hard enough or these changes are your fault - Which is it?



You see - I have absolutely no interest in going to those sites and reading what min/maxers have to say!

And D&D died 15 years ago!

DDO works because it's an MMO rather than PnP - 3rd Ed was an abomination! 3.5 is a min/maxers Paradise!

Unfortunately the min/maxers have infiltrated DDO and pushed the Devs into a corner - Now the Devs are reduced to adding the exact same HP {completely unnecessary!} and Heal amp {Lore breaking} bonuses to ALL 3 Barb Trees!


Like Fighters, Rogues and Clerics the 3 Barb Trees should offer significantly different game-play options!
Because there's not just the one Barbarian Archetype out there!

Ravager was probably a mistake as thematically it's too similar to FB AND is an Evil Archetype which DDO shouldn't be using!

Berserker is as Berserker does but again - Conan was NOT a Berserker so I don't get where this insistence on all Barbs being Conan has come from!

Occult Slayer at least should have offered us a viable alternative to Berserker but it literally plays exactly the same because the Devs decided to do away with Prestiges and make us all Generic!


The biggest problem with DDO now is that we HAVE to multiclass or play specific races to play what would in PnP be PURE Builds available to multiple races!

Want to play a Barbarian with a Bow - You're going to HAVE to take Ranger levels
Want to play a Shield maiden or Viking Warrior - You're going to HAVE to take Fighter levels!
Want to play a Battle Cleric - Fighter or Paladin levels {probably both these days!}!
Want to play an Archmage - Be Warforged/Bladeforged OR a bleedin' Zombie!
Want to play a Wolf form Druid - Monk levels
Want to play a Bear - Rofl!
Want to play a Rogue Acrobat - Monk levels again
Want to play an AA - Monk AGAIN!

Some of these are Lore Breakers too!

Monastic Druids? - Are you kidding me Turbine!
Ten Thousand Stars and Manyshot SHOULD be on the SAME Timer - Why has this not been done already!?!

suggestions for DR and other damage mitigations are in that link I posted. believe me, im disappointed myself that not even DR didn't get any love.

he did listen, but how much he was able to do or willing to do only he can answer. he did take a few of our suggestions. I don't know why you would think these changes could possibly be my fault. im not a dev. I participated in a discussion that you could have been a part of but you didn't. if you were, do you think I would try to place blame on you for providing feedback?

you have no interest in what min/maxxers have to say on an MMO DnD forum site and you have no interest in what min/maxxers have to say on a PnP forum site. I wonder what your definition of min/max is? when I said taking Augment Summoning feat on a Fighter was a wasted choice, did you think I was a min/maxxer because I prefer taking tactical and dps feats for a class known to be tactical dps?

I understand why Sev put heal amp and hit points in all the trees. players complained because barbs lack self sufficiency. I do agree that its probably not the best way to go, but something needed to be done to make the class viable again in BYOH DDO. I just would have made it into enhancements and spread the heal amp in the cores if it were up to me.

the biggest attraction to Ravager is Crit Rage. in that thread I posted discussing barbs, I did talk about the scaling problems from heroics to epics, the stat damages that don't work well in epics, the DCs of certain enhancements that need improvement. Ravager is not too similar to FB. Ravager is more about cutting enemies down piece by piece. FB is about straight up dps and kill quickly and as fast as possible at the cost of hurting yourself. there are 3 unique prestiges, so I don't know why "everyone" is trying to make barbs into Conan the Thief.

I have no idea why you think OS is generic. when we first heard about getting 2 new barbarian prestiges, I had planned on TRing my then Monster build into a OS. when I looked through the enhancements I was unimpressed. why? because I like playing dumb dumb dps and that is not OS. so I made my guy a Ravager instead. there is very little in the tree that deals dps. its all about making saves against magic and combating enemy casters. its nothing more than a dip tree for FB and Ravager.

that's right, we have to multiclass if a barb wants to use a bow and deal good damage like an archer build or multiclass if a barb wants to be a trapper. its no different mostly for any other class. we don't have the luxury in an MMO with codes and devs that develop such things like you can have in PnP where you just pick up a book and start playing. we are limited here.

Lore breaking has been happening since I first logged onto the game in Sep 2009 and im sure it happened before that too. DDO is an exaggeration of PnP and is no longer based on 3.5. what is happening in DDO is inevitable that happens in any other lore based game. we have been sliding down this slope for a long time and its not going to stop. the best we can do is try to slow the waterfall down by jamming some logs in the river.

[Uska]

The best (lore wise and game wise) change I see so far is the Fast Healing (I think in the FB tree?). That makes sense and is a great concept. The Ravager one is silly and off the charts, as mentioned Barbs are not Vampires. The answer would be in more Fast Healing/Regening effects and more DR/PRR/MRR/Dodge. That's in the barb spirit without going full blown cheese.

I agree

[Uska]

suggestions for DR and other damage mitigations are in that link I posted. believe me, im disappointed myself that not even DR didn't get any love.

he did listen, but how much he was able to do or willing to do only he can answer. he did take a few of our suggestions. I don't know why you would think these changes could possibly be my fault. im not a dev. I participated in a discussion that you could have been a part of but you didn't. if you were, do you think I would try to place blame on you for providing feedback?

you have no interest in what min/maxxers have to say on an MMO DnD forum site and you have no interest in what min/maxxers have to say on a PnP forum site. I wonder what your definition of min/max is? when I said taking Augment Summoning feat on a Fighter was a wasted choice, did you think I was a min/maxxer because I prefer taking tactical and dps feats for a class known to be tactical dps?

I understand why Sev put heal amp and hit points in all the trees. players complained because barbs lack self sufficiency. I do agree that its probably not the best way to go, but something needed to be done to make the class viable again in BYOH DDO. I just would have made it into enhancements and spread the heal amp in the cores if it were up to me.

the biggest attraction to Ravager is Crit Rage. in that thread I posted discussing barbs, I did talk about the scaling problems from heroics to epics, the stat damages that don't work well in epics, the DCs of certain enhancements that need improvement. Ravager is not too similar to FB. Ravager is more about cutting enemies down piece by piece. FB is about straight up dps and kill quickly and as fast as possible at the cost of hurting yourself. there are 3 unique prestiges, so I don't know why "everyone" is trying to make barbs into Conan the Thief.

I have no idea why you think OS is generic. when we first heard about getting 2 new barbarian prestiges, I had planned on TRing my then Monster build into a OS. when I looked through the enhancements I was unimpressed. why? because I like playing dumb dumb dps and that is not OS. so I made my guy a Ravager instead. there is very little in the tree that deals dps. its all about making saves against magic and combating enemy casters. its nothing more than a dip tree for FB and Ravager.

that's right, we have to multiclass if a barb wants to use a bow and deal good damage like an archer build or multiclass if a barb wants to be a trapper. its no different mostly for any other class. we don't have the luxury in an MMO with codes and devs that develop such things like you can have in PnP where you just pick up a book and start playing. we are limited here.

Lore breaking has been happening since I first logged onto the game in Sep 2009 and im sure it happened before that too. DDO is an exaggeration of PnP and is no longer based on 3.5. what is happening in DDO is inevitable that happens in any other lore based game. we have been sliding down this slope for a long time and its not going to stop. the best we can do is try to slow the waterfall down by jamming some logs in the river.

No they are turning ddo into a bigger non-dnd turkey than 4E was

[PermaBanned]

I was very excited about the upcoming Barb pass - until I saw it. The does not appear to be anywhere near the amount of forethought that went into Bards & Pallys.

• I was expecting some serious & significant changes to damage mitigation - that didn't happen.

• I was expecting some decent changes to their DPS mechanisms, returning them to the top o the sustained DPS pile, with some gnarly Crit potentials - not seeing that either.

• I was expecting some changes to enable self sufficiency as a viable option - it seems they largely expected to accomplish this though staggering amounts of Heal Amp so that Silver Fail Pots could keep us healthy with a steady -10 to stats and constant slowdown effect.

In short: I was looking to get my mind blown, instead I got my mind boggled.

[Tilomere]

The best (lore wise and game wise) change I see so far is the Fast Healing (I think in the FB tree?). That makes sense and is a great concept. The Ravager one is silly and off the charts, as mentioned Barbs are not Vampires. The answer would be in more Fast Healing/Regening effects and more DR/PRR/MRR/Dodge. That's in the barb spirit without going full blown cheese.

DR/PRR/MRR/Dodge are tank stats. Barbs aren't tanks in lore, they are HP sponges. Plus they just got PRR/MRR last patch so we should wait and see how they are in that department first. HP and HAMP is appropriate lore wise. Ultimately in a game played for fun, fun trumps all, and healing methods for barbs is what pretty much every other barb player asked for. I personally only wanted fort bypass. Lots of fort bypass.

The OP is kinda offensive in their post. Reported. Obviously they made a new account just to make rude comments and get banned.

[Therigar]

Conan was a Thief for instance!

Conan was from barbarian culture, he wasn't a barbarian class (http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/06/gygax-on-conan.html).

[Braegan]

DR/PRR/MRR/Dodge are tank stats. Barbs aren't tanks in lore, they are HP sponges. Plus they just got PRR/MRR last patch so we should wait and see how they are in that department first. HP and HAMP is appropriate lore wise. Ultimately in a game played for fun, fun trumps all, and healing methods for barbs is what pretty much every other barb player asked for. I personally only wanted fort bypass. Lots of fort bypass.

Well Barbs weren't just HP sponges. They had the ability to soak damage through DR. DR has not translated well in todays game. Without introducing yet another system of soaking damage, I considered the pre existing system of PRR/MRR to represent that. Dodge is certainly a Barb trait not just a tank trait (see Uncanny Dodge).

I hear ya on Barbs needing/wanting self healing. I feel that the FB T5 enhancement represents it very well and would have liked to see more of that instead of some of the other attempts made that just scream broken.

[Therigar]

4. heroic version of Fast Healing that scales well for the game. this I thought Sev would do and it fits the theme.

Discussing this with my son tonight on the way back from Atlanta Silverbacks soccer game and he had an interesting idea. He suggested that as barbarian fatigue dissipated that there should be HP recovery. His reasoning was that the reason for the fatigue was the over-exertion from rage and that as it disappeared the barbarian returned to near total recovery and was ready to move on to the next encounter.

He also suggested that rage not be optional -- that it be similar to the Swashbuckler exploit weakness not in affect but in the sense of building each time something happened up to some maximum. Essentially he said that rage should happen when a barbarian is hit and keep increasing the more that the barbarian was hit.

As we discussed his idea we came to the thought that it should stack up to 5 times with each stack adding progressively to STR, CON, DR, SR, PRR, MRR, melee power (a bit of each in each stack). To encourage pure class the thought was that it added the barbarian's level to each of those.

The rage would then drop off on a timer until it reached 0 at which point fatigue would set in. Fatigue would be on a timer based on how long the rage had lasted and regenerate HP as it wore off which would return the barbarian to near-full health.

The idea was to create the sort of torso cleaving, limb chopping berserker that the barbarian character class is supposed to represent.

[Qhualor]

Discussing this with my son tonight on the way back from Atlanta Silverbacks soccer game and he had an interesting idea. He suggested that as barbarian fatigue dissipated that there should be HP recovery. His reasoning was that the reason for the fatigue was the over-exertion from rage and that as it disappeared the barbarian returned to near total recovery and was ready to move on to the next encounter.

He also suggested that rage not be optional -- that it be similar to the Swashbuckler exploit weakness not in affect but in the sense of building each time something happened up to some maximum. Essentially he said that rage should happen when a barbarian is hit and keep increasing the more that the barbarian was hit.

As we discussed his idea we came to the thought that it should stack up to 5 times with each stack adding progressively to STR, CON, DR, SR, PRR, MRR, melee power (a bit of each in each stack). To encourage pure class the thought was that it added the barbarian's level to each of those.

The rage would then drop off on a timer until it reached 0 at which point fatigue would set in. Fatigue would be on a timer based on how long the rage had lasted and regenerate HP as it wore off which would return the barbarian to near-full health.

The idea was to create the sort of torso cleaving, limb chopping berserker that the barbarian character class is supposed to represent.

this is very fitting for Homebrew. I can see the sense this makes.

[FranOhmsford]

I wonder what your definition of min/max is? when I said taking Augment Summoning feat on a Fighter was a wasted choice, did you think I was a min/maxxer because I prefer taking tactical and dps feats for a class known to be tactical dps?

Well yes - This would be the very definition of min/maxing!

i.e. Ignoring Flavour for more power!

P.S. Augment Summoning is also a min/max Feat as it really shouldn't work with Hirelings at all Lore Wise - Just from a different point of view i.e. that of a player who uses Hirelings regularly and therefore builds their character to max the abilities of those Hirelings.
Unfortunately unless the Devs upgrade Hirelings significantly all round AS will remain on my list of bloody nice feats to have!

True Flavour feats simply don't get taken by anyone other than complete newbies who take them by mistake!



I have no idea why you think OS is generic. when we first heard about getting 2 new barbarian prestiges, I had planned on TRing my then Monster build into a OS. when I looked through the enhancements I was unimpressed. why? because I like playing dumb dumb dps and that is not OS. so I made my guy a Ravager instead. there is very little in the tree that deals dps. its all about making saves against magic and combating enemy casters. its nothing more than a dip tree for FB and Ravager.

Funny - I find Ear Smash to be a far better active ability than either Cracking Strike or the Ravager ability.

[FranOhmsford]

DR/PRR/MRR/Dodge are tank stats. Barbs aren't tanks in lore, they are HP sponges. Plus they just got PRR/MRR last patch so we should wait and see how they are in that department first. HP and HAMP is appropriate lore wise. Ultimately in a game played for fun, fun trumps all, and healing methods for barbs is what pretty much every other barb player asked for. I personally only wanted fort bypass. Lots of fort bypass.


Uh NO!

Barbs in D&D Lore are not HP Sponges at all as in PnP a Barb gets barely more HP than a Fighter or Paladin {and could easily have less if your DM insists on you ROLLING your HP each level!}.

Fort Bypass is a Rogue ability and has nothing whatsoever to do with Barbs!

Healing in D&D is very specifically the domain of Clerics, FvSs, Druids, Paladins, Necromancers, Bards, Rangers and Certain Psionicists - The insistence on EVERYONE getting Self Healing in DDO comes from other MMOs NOT D&D Lore!


DR however is very specifically a Barbarian ability in D&D!

Uncanny Dodge likewise!

Spell Resistance likewise!

[Therigar]

One way to give the torso cleaving effect would be to give them vorpal on an extended crit range -- say +1 vorpal crit range for every 3 barbarian levels starting at L5. At L5 treat any equipped weapon as vorpal able to insta-kill and L5-7 vorpal on 20, L8-10 on 19-20, L11-13 on 18-20, L14-16 on 17-20 and L17-19 on 16-20, L20 on 15-20.

Because we now have different types of vorpal maybe tie the instant kill or hp damage to levels as well, say 100hp damage per barbarian level if not enough to insta-kill.

Effect is barbarian wades thru trash mobs and deals huge damage in torso cleaving, limb chopping fashion.

[Qhualor]

Well yes - This would be the very definition of min/maxing!

i.e. Ignoring Flavour for more power!

P.S. Augment Summoning is also a min/max Feat as it really shouldn't work with Hirelings at all Lore Wise - Just from a different point of view i.e. that of a player who uses Hirelings regularly and therefore builds their character to max the abilities of those Hirelings.
Unfortunately unless the Devs upgrade Hirelings significantly all round AS will remain on my list of bloody nice feats to have!

True Flavour feats simply don't get taken by anyone other than complete newbies who take them by mistake!



Funny - I find Ear Smash to be a far better active ability than either Cracking Strike or the Ravager ability.

flavor is limited in this game. it has been broken, exaggerated, completely missing and deleted. flavor conflicts with a game that is all about killing mobs in most quests so you either take something that gives your hires a few more hp or you make a stronger character where those hires are less needed.

Ear Smash is actually a good enhancement. both my Ravager and FB have that enhancement from the dip OS tree. you are focused on this one enhancement too much. there is still Bond of Retribution, Kinetic Bond and Viscious Strike that deal damage in that tree. so that's what... 4 dps enhancements in 1 tree. Woot!

[FranOhmsford]

The idea was to create the sort of torso cleaving, limb chopping berserker that the barbarian character class is supposed to represent.

Your "Barbarian Class" is more fittingly known as a BERSERKER!

Barbarian is so much more!

What is your thing with this niche build that makes it so that you have to pigeonhole all Barbs into it?

[FranOhmsford]

flavor is limited in this game. it has been broken, exaggerated, completely missing and deleted. flavor conflicts with a game that is all about killing mobs in most quests so you either take something that gives your hires a few more hp or you make a stronger character where those hires are less needed.

I'm simply asking for "Flavour" to make a comeback!

I'm asking that the Devs don't just bow down to the min/maxers and make all builds the same!


Ear Smash is actually a good enhancement. both my Ravager and FB have that enhancement from the dip OS tree. you are focused on this one enhancement too much. there is still Bond of Retribution, Kinetic Bond and Viscious Strike that deal damage in that tree. so that's what... 4 dps enhancements in 1 tree. Woot!

And as you keep saying - We're no longer confined to one Tree!

I can just as easily dip into FB or Ravager as you can into OS!

I find however that OS provides the most of the three trees when looking at the whole rather than simply MOAR DPS!

And I find it strange that OS {the supposedly defensive tree} has by far the best "Active" ability!



Now I'm also a bit peeved that Barbs didn't get the Vanguard Tree as I'd like to be able to play a non-gimped Sword and Board Barb.
But
Maybe the Devs could move Ear Smash into Ravager and replace it in the OS Tree with some Shield Enhancements?

[Therigar]

Your "Barbarian Class" is more fittingly known as a BERSERKER!

Barbarian is so much more!

What is your thing with this niche build that makes it so that you have to pigeonhole all Barbs into it?

I've answered this in other threads. Basically it comes down to this -- you are wrong.

Barbarian in D&D has always been first and foremost a melee character class and what distinguished it from fighter or paladin was the requirement for high STR, high CON, an increased HP die and the ability to fly into a rage. When you go to where it is first officially introduced in AD&D 2d edition this is what you have. Every other iteration of barbarian derives from this.

What you keep referring to as barbarian is not D&D lore but the confusion that occurs because the same word -- barbarian -- can refer to a culture or society type but was used to describe a character class. That culture/society is not a character class. Neither is barbarian in D&D or in DDO a culture or society type -- it is a character class.

In D&D barbarian is a character class, just as it is in DDO. Therefore it is not me pigeonholing all barbarians it is D&D itself -- because we are not talking about barbarian society or barbarian culture, we are talking about the barbarian character class.

[FranOhmsford]

I've answered this in other threads. Basically it comes down to this -- you are wrong.

Barbarian in D&D has always been first and foremost a melee character class and what distinguished it from fighter or paladin was the requirement for high STR, high CON, an increased HP die and the ability to fly into a rage. When you go to where it is first officially introduced in AD&D 2d edition this is what you have. Every other iteration of barbarian derives from this.

What you keep referring to as barbarian is not D&D lore but the confusion that occurs because the same word -- barbarian -- can refer to a culture or society type but was used to describe a character class. That culture/society is not a character class. Neither is barbarian in D&D or in DDO a culture or society type -- it is a character class.

In D&D barbarian is a character class, just as it is in DDO. Therefore it is not me pigeonholing all barbarians it is D&D itself -- because we are not talking about barbarian society or barbarian culture, we are talking about the barbarian character class.

From TSR 2110 PHBR1 The Complete Fighters Handbook

Barbarian
Description: This is not the barbarian of history. but the barbarian of fantasy fiction. He's a powerful warrior from a culture
on the fringes of civilization. He's left his home to sell his skills and adventure in the civilized world-perhaps to amass a
fortune with which to return home, perhaps to become an important figure in this so-called civilization. He's known for
strength. cunning, contempt for the outer worlds decadence. and for adhering to his own code of honor.
The barbarian is usually very strong: therefore, the barbarian must have a Strength ability score of 15 or more. A character
can come from a barbarian tribe and have a lower Strength than that-but he cannot have the Barbarian Kit.

Role: The typical RPG barbarian is a powerful, dangerous figure, as though he were an animal totem in human skin. In
a campaign, he’s a front-line fighter with some special skills and a very different outlook than the rest of the characters:
his player should always play him as someone from a different land, someone whose likes and dislikes and perceptions are
based on a different culture. (If you play him as just another warrior from down the street, you lose a lot of the mystique
the character has.)

Special Benefit: Barbarians are impressive because of sheer strength, intensity, and animal magnetism: this gives them a
+3 reaction adjustment bonus in certain situations.
Whenever the barbarian character achieves a reaction roll of 8 or less (including Charisma and racial bonuses), you subtract
the modifier. That is, if the reaction is positive at all, it will be even more positive than it otherwise would have been

ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF RAGE!
ABSOLUTELY NO CON REQUIREMENT!


There is however also a BERSERKER Kit in that same handbook!

[Therigar]

Try looking at AD&D 2d edition which is the first place that barbarian is fully set out as a character class. You can read it online here (http://www.padnd.com/arkuth/class_barbarian.php).

Prior to this they are not a stand-alone character class but rather a sub-class of fighter. The history of it can be seen here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29).

Our discussion is about the character class -- not about a sub-class, not about a kit, but about the character class. That is all that the discussion is about.

How it is that every other person reading and contributing understands this except for you confounds me.

The original poster has set it out with great accuracy.

Lastly, let me note that DDO is based on D&D 3.5 which says this, "The barbarian is an excellent warrior. Where the fighter’s skill in combat comes from training and discipline, however, the barbarian has a powerful rage. While in this berserk fury, he becomes stronger and tougher, better able to defeat his foes and withstand their attacks."

Thus, again, barbarians are not what you say they are but instead what everyone except you has been saying they are -- raging war machines.

[Blackheartox]

I dont get it, why dont they add to cores lv 18 or capstone a simple 2 things that says something in this manner.

Silver flame potions can now be carried in stacks of 100
Potion lord: Your frenzy and barbarian nature made your blood rage whenever you drink a potion:

Based on char level extra healing from any source of potion + no negative effects.
Make it barb exclusive and viola, you got hella lot fixed without intercepting other classes.

Is it really that hard to balance barbs for ee content?
You just need to play the class there for 1 day to figure out whats wrong

[BOgre]

Uh NO!

That is an MMO min/max explanation that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Barbarian Lore in D&D!

Barbarians are a Sub-Race in D&D that first got turned into a "Kit" or "Prestige" then became a Class later on!


Go elsewhere than D&D and you'll find there's far more to a Barbarian than simply dealing "MASSIVE" Damage - Conan was a Thief for instance!


We've gotta move away from this MMO thinking that has made the Devs do something so ridiculous as adding 400 unneeded HP and stupid amounts of Heal amp to all 3 Barb Trees!

I don't get anyone can possibly be surprised by this. Just about the only talk this forum has seen in the last couple of years re: Barbs is that they're useless now because they have no self healing, don't do enuf damage, etc. So what would you expect the devs to do??? This is pretty much exactly what ppl have been begging for.

If you think barbs can be made viable differently in the current gamestate, let's hear the proposal. I haven't vread any good ones recently...

[FranOhmsford]

Try looking at AD&D 2d edition which is the first place that barbarian is fully set out as a character class. You can read it online here (http://www.padnd.com/arkuth/class_barbarian.php).

Prior to this they are not a stand-alone character class but rather a sub-class of fighter. The history of it can be seen here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29).

Our discussion is about the character class -- not about a sub-class, not about a kit, but about the character class. That is all that the discussion is about.

How it is that every other person reading and contributing understands this except for you confounds me.



Lol - That was from 2nd Ed!

And NEITHER of those two links are from actual AD&D 2nd Ed!
One is Homebrewed!
The other is a minimal Wikipedia entry which only specifies 4th Ed statistics {and then in minimal detail!}

And it was YOU who insisted upon saying
When you go to where it is first officially introduced in AD&D 2nd edition this is what you have. Every other iteration of barbarian derives from this.

FIRST OFFICIALLY INTRODUCED!

That would be in the TSR 2110 PHBR1 The Complete Fighter's Handbook!

NOT in the TSR 2148 The Complete Barbarian's Handbook!


And IF we're now talking about the Barbarian's Handbook which set out the CLASS literally every kit in that handbook is a direct cultural reference!

And from said Handbook:

Physical Abilities
The barbarian’s extraordinary physical ab*-
ties-leaping, springing, climbing, and quick
movement-aren’t reserved for special occasions.
They‘re components of everyday life,
used naturally and continuously. A barbarian
may prefer swinging from tree to tree over walking.
Scaling a wall and popping through a window
may be a more comfortable way to enter a
building than opening a door.
To rule-play a barbarian effectively, the player
should incorporate these physical skills into routine
activities whenever possible. Keep his
background in mind; a barbarian from the arctic
probably won’t be as enthusiastic about tree
swinging as a barbarian from the jungle.

Some ideas:

A barbarian may mimic the physical actions
of animals from his homeland. When stalking
prey, he may creep on all fours like a wolf.
Sensing danger, he may freeze like a deer,
neck erect, discreetly sniffing the air. He may
sprint like a gazelle, spring through the grass
like a kangaroo, even strike like a serpent to
sink his teeth in a victim’s neck.

He may be in constant motion, too restless to
stay put for more than a few moments. He
leaps from boulder to boulder for the sheer
fun of it, darts through the brush in playful
pursuit of a rabbit, springs into the air in a
futile effort to snag a passing bird. He may
sleep in short naps, rising every hour or two
to scout for strangers or hunt for something
to eat.

Because of the advantages of elevation-the
higher you are, the more you can see; irs easier
to pounce from a height-he may avoid
the ground. While his companions break for a
rest, he leaps atop a boulder to survey the
area. He sleeps in the bow of a tree, eats his
meals while squatting on a stump, clambers
up a friend’s shoulder to get a better look at a
passing buffalo herd.

In combat situations, he may be a blur of
hands and feet. He hurls himself through the
air to deliver two powerful kicks to an ogre’s
stomach. He springs over a crouched goblin
to smack him on the back of the head. He
jumps from the brush, pummels a mage with
a flurry of punches, then dives back to his
hiding place.


AGAIN: NOT A SINGLE MENTION OF RAGE!

Although it does give extra stat requirements than the Fighter Kit did:
Strength 12
Dexterity 9
Constitution 12
Though with a lower Str requirement than said Fighter Kit!

Let's compare these to a Paladin's requirements shall we:
Strength 12
Constitution 9
Wisdom 13
Charisma 17

Yeah that Barbarian is really the Uber DPS guy with EXACTLY the same Str requirement as the Paladin and less stringent requirements overall!

The Paladin also is likely in PnP to have a Warhorse {once he receives said mount of course.} and be fully armed and armoured!

[Therigar]

I dont get it

I have to say that it is absolutely true that, given the character of DDO and how it is played right now, barbarians need a boost in both damage and in the ability to self heal.

I think that the enhancement changes are designed to do this.

It does appear that the healing piece is a bit too powerful but I'm willing to let it ride until we can test run it on Lamannia. My bigger concern is that by duplicating things in the enhancement cores that there is an intent to allow them to stack.

Because the other parts in the cores are not the same it seems counter-intuitive that they will lock out the duplicated abilities. To the contrary, it seems abundantly clear that the duplicated abilities are intended to stack with one another.

And, on the surface it seems to be maybe a necessary thing for pure class barbarians in order to give them the various forms of damage mitigation and the -- for better or for worse, defacto requirement of -- self-healing.

Thus, I'm not concerned about the changes per se when talking pure class barbarians.

But, I see huge potential for splashing barbarian and gaining 120 hp and +60 healing amp for a 6 level splash -- plus easy access to tier 4 in any of the barbarian trees. That is 33 AP to get 3 enhancement trees with L6 core abilities and another 9 to get a tier 4 ability. Still leaves 38 AP to spend elsewhere.

Like most things Turbine, the horse is out the gate and there's no getting it back. But I see this as having potential for being a big mistake.

[Scrabbler]

Barbarian in D&D has always been first and foremost a melee character class and what distinguished it from fighter or paladin was the requirement for high STR, high CON, an increased HP die and the ability to fly into a rage. When you go to where it is first officially introduced in AD&D 2d edition this is what you have. Every other iteration of barbarian derives from this.
Nope. The Barbarian class was added to AD&D in 1985, long before they had edition numbers. It was in the last book personally compiled by Gygax.

That version did require Strength and Constitution, but had no real rage.

[FranOhmsford]

Nope. The Barbarian class was added to AD&D in 1985, long before they had edition numbers. It was in the last book personally compiled by Gygax.

That version did require Strength and Constitution, but had no real rage.

I don't recall Barbarian in 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana?

Cavalier and Monk were there along with Bard changes.

But again - NO RAGE!

Like Cavalier and Monk Barbarian was then removed as a Class and placed back in as a much weaker Kit {Fighter like Cavalier - Monk became a Priest Kit}.
The Barbarian Handbook brought it back as a Class around the mid 90s but really it was a Sub-Race {the Class moniker was just to stop players from being able to min/max Multiclass!}.

Of course then 3rd Ed. + removed a shed load of restrictions on multi-classing that were there for a REASON!

[Therigar]

<stuff>

Regardless, the simple fact remains that barbarian is a character class, that when introduced as a character class (not a sub-class or kit, but a stand-alone class) it was distinguished by rage, that 3.5 which forms the basis of DDO recognizes its difference from fighter as being rage.

Now, this is enough of a derail from the OP. The OP correctly identifies the nature of the barbarian class and what it is in DDO. The objections raised to the current look of the enhancements is legitimate. And, the concerns that the enhancements are better suited to splashes than to pure classes is legitimate.

What the gaming populace is looking for is a way to make barbarians high-level damage dealers and a way to mitigate the damage they take due to their armor restrictions -- including a reasonable way to self-heal because that is the reality of the present-day DDO game.

The desire for these things is not to enable barbarian splashes to fulfill some desire for a character type that is not part of DDO. It is not to enable barbarian splashes to allow other classes to jump further ahead as damage dealers.

The desire is to enable barbarians -- predominantly pure class barbarians -- to be playable within the context of the current game (complete with the emphasis on soloing and self-healing).

When the enhancement pass threatens to encourage people to NOT play barbarians but to instead just splash for the benefits then there is something wrong with the enhancements. As presently written a barbarian 6/bard 14 will totally crush a barbarian 20 in every phase of the game.

That should NOT be what we are aiming for with the enhancement pass and class upgrade.

[Tscheuss]

Discussing this with my son tonight on the way back from Atlanta Silverbacks soccer game and he had an interesting idea. He suggested that as barbarian fatigue dissipated that there should be HP recovery. His reasoning was that the reason for the fatigue was the over-exertion from rage and that as it disappeared the barbarian returned to near total recovery and was ready to move on to the next encounter.

He also suggested that rage not be optional -- that it be similar to the Swashbuckler exploit weakness not in affect but in the sense of building each time something happened up to some maximum. Essentially he said that rage should happen when a barbarian is hit and keep increasing the more that the barbarian was hit.

As we discussed his idea we came to the thought that it should stack up to 5 times with each stack adding progressively to STR, CON, DR, SR, PRR, MRR, melee power (a bit of each in each stack). To encourage pure class the thought was that it added the barbarian's level to each of those.

The rage would then drop off on a timer until it reached 0 at which point fatigue would set in. Fatigue would be on a timer based on how long the rage had lasted and regenerate HP as it wore off which would return the barbarian to near-full health.

The idea was to create the sort of torso cleaving, limb chopping berserker that the barbarian character class is supposed to represent.

Why am I thinking of green skin and gamma rays? lol

[FranOhmsford]

Regardless, the simple fact remains that barbarian is a character class, that when introduced as a character class (not a sub-class or kit, but a stand-alone class) it was distinguished by rage, that 3.5 which forms the basis of DDO recognizes its difference from fighter as being rage.


Rofl - You lose the argument on First introduction so resort to First introduction as a Class {where you're also utterly wrong!} - Now you're specifying introduced in 3.5?

Barbarian was introduced, removed and re-introduced as a Class LONG BEFORE 3.5!

The reason why it was never a main class unlike Paladin and Ranger was that it never worked as a Class!

This is because in Essence Barbarian is a Race {Sub-Race in D&D Terms}!


Rage however was the province of another "FIGHTER" Kit - The BERSERKER!

Berserkers became Barbs in 3rd Ed or 3.5 I'm not sure which.

Now everyone thinks that ALL Barbs have to have and have always had Rage - This is Patently FALSE!


The problem is in DDO that Turbine originally introduced only one Prestige for Barbs {Frenzied Berserker} - They then compounded this mistake when doing the Enhancement Pass by spreading the Rage boosts out amongst the three Trees rather than actually making OS and Ravager Unique!


You're the one insisting that all Barbs must be Berserkers!
So it is you that is in the Wrong here!

[Oxarhamar]

Regardless, the simple fact remains that barbarian is a character class, that when introduced as a character class (not a sub-class or kit, but a stand-alone class) it was distinguished by rage, that 3.5 which forms the basis of DDO recognizes its difference from fighter as being rage.

Now, this is enough of a derail from the OP. The OP correctly identifies the nature of the barbarian class and what it is in DDO. The objections raised to the current look of the enhancements is legitimate. And, the concerns that the enhancements are better suited to splashes than to pure classes is legitimate.

What the gaming populace is looking for is a way to make barbarians high-level damage dealers and a way to mitigate the damage they take due to their armor restrictions -- including a reasonable way to self-heal because that is the reality of the present-day DDO game.

The desire for these things is not to enable barbarian splashes to fulfill some desire for a character type that is not part of DDO. It is not to enable barbarian splashes to allow other classes to jump further ahead as damage dealers.

The desire is to enable barbarians -- predominantly pure class barbarians -- to be playable within the context of the current game (complete with the emphasis on soloing and self-healing).

When the enhancement pass threatens to encourage people to NOT play barbarians but to instead just splash for the benefits then there is something wrong with the enhancements. As presently written a barbarian 6/bard 14 will totally crush a barbarian 20 in every phase of the game.

That should NOT be what we are aiming for with the enhancement pass and class upgrade.

its also worth note

this is DDO not AD&D or 3.5 or 4E or etc...

[Therigar]

Nope. The Barbarian class was added to AD&D in 1985, long before they had edition numbers. It was in the last book personally compiled by Gygax.

That version did require Strength and Constitution, but had no real rage.

You are correct. I apologize. My wording is incorrect. It did appear as an official class without rage. However, rage became the distinguishing characteristic and certainly is the distinguishing characteristic in 3.5 which is the basis of DDO. Recognizing that DDO lived thru 4e and that we now have 5e it is interesting to see that 5e continues to put great emphasis on rage.

Within the context of DDO barbarian as a class certainly is distinguished by this characteristic.

[BOgre]

And, the concerns that the enhancements are better suited to splashes than to pure classes is legitimate.

The desire for these things is not to enable barbarian splashes to fulfill some desire for a character type that is not part of DDO. It is not to enable barbarian splashes to allow other classes to jump further ahead as damage dealers.

When the enhancement pass threatens to encourage people to NOT play barbarians but to instead just splash for the benefits then there is something wrong with the enhancements.

That should NOT be what we are aiming for with the enhancement pass and class upgrade.

You can substitute nearly any class / tree / splash into the above and still be correct. Unfortunately, Turb has yet to address this problem to anyone's real satisfaction. With a very few exceptions, it's tough to build a pure ANYthing that can compete meaningfully with its splashed counterparts. But again, this seems to be what we want.

If a tree comes out looking too back-loaded, we cry about how expensive the front end is. If it comes out too front-loaded we cry about how splashable it will be... In the end though, we're almost never right with our crying... The builds that emerge as being "the best" come out of the blue with synergies we didn't see initially, splits we didn't predict, oh, and don't forget the bugs and undocumented stackings that are bound to occur and not be fixed for a year or three...

I say let 'em make their proposed changes as-is. ANY barb love at this point is going to be a good thing for barbs, and will certainly make for interesting build experiments in the near future, right?

btw, why are you two arguing about when/how barbs were intro'd and how much rage has/had to do with them??? Who cares? You're clamoring for some non-existent D&D nerd trophy? This isn't D&D, remember? None of what you're talking about has ANYTHING to do with DDO Barbarians and the current Enhancement Tree proposals... take that pointless argument somewhere else.

[Therigar]

its also worth note

this is DDO not AD&D or 3.5 or 4E or etc...

True enough. And for many people the edition that is the underlying rule set on which DDO is based is irrelevant -- they may in fact have never played D&D in any form.

However, this discussion on what does or does not make a barbarian is distracting from the real issue -- what a barbarian is in DDO and how the enhancement pass affects that. Those things are well set out by the OP and the problems are that the enhancement pass as it currently stands does not help the barbarian class so much as they help other classes that will splash barbarian.

How many barbarian/druids are running around today? How many barbarian/bards? How many barbarian/fighters? Is the purpose of the enhancement pass to enable druid, bard or fighter icons with the perks of the barbarian enhancement trees?

Because that is what is brewing. The pass isn't helping barbarians that are carrying the barbarian icon. It is helping multiclass builds that are not even being played yet but that are being schemed in people's minds as they watch the enhancements develop.

Is it our intent to make barbarians on par with paladins and bards as top DPS builds? Is our intent to make barbarians able to self-heal with enough sufficiency that they can meet the expectations of today's gamers? OR, is our intent to push them further behind because we enabled multiclass builds that are going to build on the synergies that the enhancement trees provide?

Just stop and think for a few minutes on what a fully self-healing occult slayer, frenzied berzerker, wolf-form druid is going to look like. Now take a gander at what that same self-healing occult slayer, frenzied berzerker, swashbuckling bard is going to look like.

I'm not going to apologize to you, it is going to push barbarians to second tier and paladins too. It is flat out irresponsible and is not helpful to the barbarian class.

Now, as I've said elsewhere, I don't play barbarians. I really don't care. If that is really what the players want and what Turbine wants then fine.

But, it is a really, really, bad idea.

[Therigar]

btw, why are you two arguing about when/how barbs were intro'd and how much rage has/had to do with them??? Who cares? You're clamoring for some non-existent D&D nerd trophy? This isn't D&D, remember? None of what you're talking about has ANYTHING to do with DDO Barbarians and the current Enhancement Tree proposals... take that pointless argument somewhere else.

Well, I realized that we're just eating up space and derailing. But, it is a nice trophy, or will be.... ;)

[Therigar]

You can substitute nearly any class / tree / splash into the above and still be correct. Unfortunately, Turb has yet to address this problem to anyone's real satisfaction. With a very few exceptions, it's tough to build a pure ANYthing that can compete meaningfully with its splashed counterparts. But again, this seems to be what we want.

True to a large extent. I would argue that they did a good job with paladin. Lots of sentiment that paladin 20 is the current best damage build in the game and that the AC and MRR changes heavily favor paladin as best defensive class as well.

Of course, that is within the context of melee characters.

[Scrabbler]

Those things are well set out by the OP and the problems are that the enhancement pass as it currently stands does not help the barbarian class so much as they help other classes that will splash barbarian.
Easy enough to scan through the whole enhancement tree, divide every number by 5, and then paste "per 4 Barbarian levels" after it.

For example, Ravager gets a very strong 1d4 self-healing effect. No reason it can't scale through [1d1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4] as your Barb level progresses from 5 to 19. Alternatively, it could give a 5% per-Barb-level chance to get 1d4 healing per hit.

To discourage excessive splashing, you don't need to make every enhancement scale with class level; just a couple key features will be enough.

[Oxarhamar]

Rofl - You lose the argument on First introduction so resort to First introduction as a Class {where you're also utterly wrong!} - Now you're specifying introduced in 3.5?

Barbarian was introduced, removed and re-introduced as a Class LONG BEFORE 3.5!

The reason why it was never a main class unlike Paladin and Ranger was that it never worked as a Class!

This is because in Essence Barbarian is a Race {Sub-Race in D&D Terms}!


Rage however was the province of another "FIGHTER" Kit - The BERSERKER!

Berserkers became Barbs in 3rd Ed or 3.5 I'm not sure which.

Now everyone thinks that ALL Barbs have to have and have always had Rage - This is Patently FALSE!


The problem is in DDO that Turbine originally introduced only one Prestige for Barbs {Frenzied Berserker} - They then compounded this mistake when doing the Enhancement Pass by spreading the Rage boosts out amongst the three Trees rather than actually making OS and Ravager Unique!


You're the one insisting that all Barbs must be Berserkers!
So it is you that is in the Wrong here!



Barbarian was as much a race in DnD as it was a race in History.

[Oxarhamar]

True enough. And for many people the edition that is the underlying rule set on which DDO is based is irrelevant -- they may in fact have never played D&D in any form.

However, this discussion on what does or does not make a barbarian is distracting from the real issue -- what a barbarian is in DDO and how the enhancement pass affects that. Those things are well set out by the OP and the problems are that the enhancement pass as it currently stands does not help the barbarian class so much as they help other classes that will splash barbarian.

How many barbarian/druids are running around today? How many barbarian/bards? How many barbarian/fighters? Is the purpose of the enhancement pass to enable druid, bard or fighter icons with the perks of the barbarian enhancement trees?

Because that is what is brewing. The pass isn't helping barbarians that are carrying the barbarian icon. It is helping multiclass builds that are not even being played yet but that are being schemed in people's minds as they watch the enhancements develop.

Is it our intent to make barbarians on par with paladins and bards as top DPS builds? Is our intent to make barbarians able to self-heal with enough sufficiency that they can meet the expectations of today's gamers? OR, is our intent to push them further behind because we enabled multiclass builds that are going to build on the synergies that the enhancement trees provide?

Just stop and think for a few minutes on what a fully self-healing occult slayer, frenzied berzerker, wolf-form druid is going to look like. Now take a gander at what that same self-healing occult slayer, frenzied berzerker, swashbuckling bard is going to look like.

I'm not going to apologize to you, it is going to push barbarians to second tier and paladins too. It is flat out irresponsible and is not helpful to the barbarian class.

Now, as I've said elsewhere, I don't play barbarians. I really don't care. If that is really what the players want and what Turbine wants then fine.

But, it is a really, really, bad idea.


I don't disagree about pures.

That's why more Abilities that are class specific need to be tied to higher class levels and the cores to boost pure.

and pures need trees, cores, capstone. that compliment each other enough that it is a tough decision to multiclass because, your loosing a lot.


Though I'm a heavy multiclasser because, well pures are weak and don't offer much so why would I choose weakness over strength?

[Therigar]

Easy enough to scan through the whole enhancement tree, divide every number by 5, and then paste "per 4 Barbarian levels" after it.

For example, Ravager gets a very strong 1d4 self-healing effect. No reason it can't scale through [1d1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4] as your Barb level progresses from 5 to 19. Alternatively, it could give a 5% per-Barb-level chance to get 1d4 healing per hit.

To discourage excessive splashing, you don't need to make every enhancement scale with class level; just a couple key features will be enough.

I like that as a solution. You are right, the real issue is 1 or 2 juicy pieces. If they are less juicy then people are less likely to take them.

It actually might be a great solution to some of the other unexpected synergy issues that BOgre referenced.

[tralfaz81]

These were not the droids I was looking for.

[Scrabbler]

If anyone is interested in the history of what Barbarians are "supposed" to be in D&D, page 12 of this PDF has Gygax's notes on Conan, a few years before he did the first Barb class.

http://annarchive.com/files/Drmg036.pdf

[skorpeon]

If anyone is interested in the history of what Barbarians are "supposed" to be in D&D, page 12 of this PDF has Gygax's notes on Conan, a few years before he did the first Barb class.

http://annarchive.com/files/Drmg036.pdf

Enjoyed reading that, brought back a lot of great memories. On Conan, I agree this is what I would like to see in the barbarian tree, some rogue skills would fit very nicely and resistances to magic and poison for sure. Interesting that he shuns magic weapons, that would be a tough one I guess with all the bonus's and weapon effects but if they were actually in the tree if would not matter so much.

I will continue reading ty....

The question answering thing in there was a good read also, evidently half orcs are not able to be raised as they have no souls! good one

[MeliCat]

Put simply, Barbarians are damage dealing toons eschewing all else in the pursuit of damage and defeating whatever foe they face. They do not succeed because they have so much healing that they simply bore the opponent to death by with endless hit points. NO, the succeed because they KILL the opponent with top tier damage while surviving long enough to do that with assorted inhuman resistance and will power.


Agreed.

Really hoping that some of the practical suggestions of how barbarians can be top notch dps are implemented.

I always understood that barbarians main prevention of damage to themselves was that they killed other things before they could give out damage. Emphasising healing amplication sends the message that you're meant to be a meatbag on a barb. Um no. That's a tank. Go and build a tank. Not a barb. (yes I know barbs can tank if they are built that way but thinking classwise).

I was hoping for speed, maneuverability and DAMAGE. And what we got... hmmmm.

[theRolf]

I wish I knew about this destruction of the game before I renewed my sub for 15 months though I would have saved that money and about 300 bucks I spent on other items and just moved on now I will stay for a bit since I paid for it but I will rant and race about every bit of power creeping nonsense they do

That is a different problem than making barbs better. Please enlighten us on how barbs can once again be made viable while meeting your expectations for general game play.

Thank you

[Standal]

I always understood that barbarians main prevention of damage to themselves was that they killed other things before they could give out damage. Emphasising healing amplication sends the message that you're meant to be a meatbag on a barb. Um no. That's a tank. Go and build a tank. Not a barb. (yes I know barbs can tank if they are built that way but thinking classwise).

I think the HAmp thing may come from the devs talking to some vet players and not really understanding what they were told since they are new and don't understand the history of the game. My barbarian gear back when I played one maximized Heal Amp because that's what was needed. The first one was warforged. HAmp gear was necessary just to get up to where a cleric could heal you with the Heal/Mass Heal spell. When Horcs were all the rage, HAmp allowed me to get just about all the healing I needed from a cleric's aura. The thing that the devs don't seem to understand is that I was using gear to counter the weakness inherent in my class. I sacrificed offensive gear (guard or DPS) to get defensive gear (HAmp).

Barbs have DR as their defense. When PRR was introduced they got screwed because the devs didn't realize the PRR was essentially the new DR. If you gave barbs 10 PRR per point of DR it would go a long way toward making barbs semi-viable again. I say semi-viable because they really weren't ever viable without a hireling for soloing or a healer in groups. By the end, my barb was a raid only character.

[Uska]

That is a different problem than making barbs better. Please enlighten us on how barbs can once again be made viable while meeting your expectations for general game play.

Thank you

All barbs needed was a dps boost and damage mitigation and soaking ability.

[zwiebelring]

As long as Barbarians (and I mean pure lvl. 20 Barbarians with good if not optimal race choice, multiclassing is a whole different story) do not deal damage in the 20ks per swing (on a 100% easily sustainable base) your expectations won't be met, OP. As long as there is no adaptation of mob hp's to barbarians dps, no change will make them fun to play on ee, either.

The only thing happening, is speeding up the powercreep spiral for any class. Bards, Paladins, now Barbarians, soon Fighters will be tuned up, then Rangers, then all caster classes, then it starts over again. And then again, as long as content and the community does not absolutely demand the outsourcing of healing, aka group healer, the icon won't be accepted more after this revamp.

- edit -
Forgot mentioning Rogues... whatever, Rogues are OP everytime, as we know. They take the Rouge PrE and win ;P

[Sebastrd]

Discussing this with my son tonight on the way back from Atlanta Silverbacks soccer game and he had an interesting idea. He suggested that as barbarian fatigue dissipated that there should be HP recovery. His reasoning was that the reason for the fatigue was the over-exertion from rage and that as it disappeared the barbarian returned to near total recovery and was ready to move on to the next encounter.

He also suggested that rage not be optional -- that it be similar to the Swashbuckler exploit weakness not in affect but in the sense of building each time something happened up to some maximum. Essentially he said that rage should happen when a barbarian is hit and keep increasing the more that the barbarian was hit.

As we discussed his idea we came to the thought that it should stack up to 5 times with each stack adding progressively to STR, CON, DR, SR, PRR, MRR, melee power (a bit of each in each stack). To encourage pure class the thought was that it added the barbarian's level to each of those.

The rage would then drop off on a timer until it reached 0 at which point fatigue would set in. Fatigue would be on a timer based on how long the rage had lasted and regenerate HP as it wore off which would return the barbarian to near-full health.

The idea was to create the sort of torso cleaving, limb chopping berserker that the barbarian character class is supposed to represent.

I really like this idea. It could use some fine-tuning, but it's definitely a start. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than a boat-load of healing amp.

[Fefnir_2011]

lol sure, let's get back to our Pen and Paper roots. Let's forgot that 3.5e was so horribly broken that it brought us things like the Peasant Rail Cannon and Pun-Pun. Did you guys even play 3.5e, or are you conveniently forgetting that it also had the most obnoxiously powerful spellcasters? So much so that a typical fighter or barbarian's retirement plan was becoming king of a small fiefdom and settling down, while most wizards opted to attempt to ascend to godhood.

The devs had two choices: Make DDO into your typical trinity MMO where nearly every quest past korthos would require healer-tank-dps, or give barbarians some manner of self-healing that still fits with the class but lets us keep our precious class diversity. It's not like they gave barbarians a heal SLA that works while raged.

[Powskier]

Barbarian was ,in d&d ,supposed to be a frenzy fighting ranger type(focused more on two handed axes & swords).I'd like them to get a chaotic companion ,like a kobold shaman ,to heal them a tad. They get a nice hp boost w i like pain;if it was scaled to epic it could compensate for their need(1 possible every 2 min/ a 50% rage hp boost when hit in combat/lvl 4 or 5 auto -grant) and maybe- ( a minus 2 or 4 wisdom ,with a new rage stance toggle ,adding str and crit range 1 or 2 )

[zwiebelring]

The mechanics, Pun-Pun was built on have no value in DDO. No Polymorph, no abuse. But whatever the case, in DDO they needed more inherent PRR and MRR bonuses to compete with the current big numbers in DDO's endgame.

In pnp you had small numbers and a universal DR of 10 was almost invulnerability for the average play. Of course, highly optimized builds created different balance isues but in general it was neither easy to get damage reduction nor high hp or fortification, for example. But maybe others will say differently.

However, DR 10/- does not have any impact on a current pure classed DDO Barbarian. Inherent PRR + medium armor have to be good enough to either make DR 10/- valid again or compensate for it being removed completely.

[Stormanne]

I made it about 20 posts in then decided to just make my DR suggestion.

As I see, DR is set as a hard number that, as you get into the higher levels, becomes a trivial amount of damage mitigation. What's the point of having DR/10 when you just got smacked for 250 points of damage. Woohoo, you got saved from one CLW pot worth of damage. Instead, adjust the numbers as percentages, adjust the passive feat numbers (level 1 gets 2%, level 3 gets 5%, etc until level 20 that gets 15%), then add an across the board (available in all barbarian prestige trees) tier three or four enhancement that allows players to raise that percentage by 5% (bringing a level 20, with max points put into that enhancement, to a total 30% DR). It becomes viable damage mitigation without being over the top.

I know, this is just one item out of many to fix the class...

[Uska]

lol sure, let's get back to our Pen and Paper roots. Let's forgot that 3.5e was so horribly broken that it brought us things like the Peasant Rail Cannon and Pun-Pun. Did you guys even play 3.5e, or are you conveniently forgetting that it also had the most obnoxiously powerful spellcasters? So much so that a typical fighter or barbarian's retirement plan was becoming king of a small fiefdom and settling down, while most wizards opted to attempt to ascend to godhood.

The devs had two choices: Make DDO into your typical trinity MMO where nearly every quest past korthos would require healer-tank-dps, or give barbarians some manner of self-healing that still fits with the class but lets us keep our precious class diversity. It's not like they gave barbarians a heal SLA that works while raged.

Pnp wasn't to bad as long you burned/banned all the splat books

[BigErkyKid]

I made it about 20 posts in then decided to just make my DR suggestion.

As I see, DR is set as a hard number that, as you get into the higher levels, becomes a trivial amount of damage mitigation. What's the point of having DR/10 when you just got smacked for 250 points of damage. Woohoo, you got saved from one CLW pot worth of damage. Instead, adjust the numbers as percentages, adjust the passive feat numbers (level 1 gets 2%, level 3 gets 5%, etc until level 20 that gets 15%), then add an across the board (available in all barbarian prestige trees) tier three or four enhancement that allows players to raise that percentage by 5% (bringing a level 20, with max points put into that enhancement, to a total 30% DR). It becomes viable damage mitigation without being over the top.

I know, this is just one item out of many to fix the class...

In other words, turn DR into PRR?

Already have that. DR needs to go up for the barb.

[Therigar]

Pnp wasn't to bad as long you burned/banned all the splat books

It is a bit off topic but still....

Seems that a lot of people never understood that PnP was at the mercy of the DM who freely inserted into or withheld from the game whatever mechanics they wanted. I remember vividly a 2.5 game I ran in Germany where a player ran a monk. Due to various circumstances an NPC let of a "Delayed Blast Nuclear Fireball" -- a spell I had made up and which was effectively a nuclear explosion.

The monk insisted that he got a save to escape damage -- which I gave him and he made. He died from radiation poisoning....

The only reason any D&D edition ever has OP builds is because the DM allows them. And that is fine if the DM is clever enough to generate an OP campaign for OP builds.

That same thing applies now in DDO. We can know that something OP is brewing but it is up to the DM (Turbine) to allow it or to stop it. If they allow it then quests become OP to compensate and the whole cycle repeats as classes must be updated to deal with new content (and as old content becomes a laugh-fest). If they stop or control things so that they are not OP then we wobble towards balance.

I say wobble towards balance because I accept that the game will never achieve balance -- it will always tilt/wobble one direction or another. But, withing broad groupings there can be rough parity.

If the barbarian pass tilts the balance horribly in a direction then that is bad. If Turbine effectively burns/bans the splat books (to borrow from the quote) then that is good.

Players are going to ask for everything OP. That needs to be moderated.

[theRolf]

I have to say that it is absolutely true that, given the character of DDO and how it is played right now, barbarians need a boost in both damage and in the ability to self heal.

I think that the enhancement changes are designed to do this.

It does appear that the healing piece is a bit too powerful but I'm willing to let it ride until we can test run it on Lamannia. My bigger concern is that by duplicating things in the enhancement cores that there is an intent to allow them to stack.

Because the other parts in the cores are not the same it seems counter-intuitive that they will lock out the duplicated abilities. To the contrary, it seems abundantly clear that the duplicated abilities are intended to stack with one another.

And, on the surface it seems to be maybe a necessary thing for pure class barbarians in order to give them the various forms of damage mitigation and the -- for better or for worse, defacto requirement of -- self-healing.

Thus, I'm not concerned about the changes per se when talking pure class barbarians.

But, I see huge potential for splashing barbarian and gaining 120 hp and +60 healing amp for a 6 level splash -- plus easy access to tier 4 in any of the barbarian trees. That is 33 AP to get 3 enhancement trees with L6 core abilities and another 9 to get a tier 4 ability. Still leaves 38 AP to spend elsewhere.

Like most things Turbine, the horse is out the gate and there's no getting it back. But I see this as having potential for being a big mistake.

I understand you concern. But is six levels a splash or a different character entirely? I would say the latter, which means that we've added more choices to the game. That's a good thing, especially when monk and pally are already alignment restricted. Time to improve "the other half" is over due IMO.

[Cordovan]

The OP of this thread is in violation of the Community Guidelines, and the thread itself contains fighting and insults. The thread is now closed. If folks wish to discuss the historical d20 barbarian, please do so in a different thread.