U23: Worst. Release. Ever.

[Certon]

I was indifferent to the release of U23: The Mark of Death, but I waited like everyone else, poring over the screenshots of interesting gear that would elevate some of my 28th level toons to the next tier power-wise.

Then it came out.

I was incredibly disappointed. Like REALLY let down. Everything about this release just aggravated me, from PRR changes, to the CON drain on the Doomspheres, to the absolute impossible rarity of some of the items that I'd love to have. Slogging through Epic Necropolis and the Orchard has been a chore.

This doesn't mean I'm quitting. Just, for the first time in a very long time, I have had NO desire to play at all. It's uncanny. The day before the release, I was still playing a lot and having fun. A few days after? Zip.

You guys really let me down. This release was a complete failure.

[BigErkyKid]

I was indifferent to the release of U23: The Mark of Death, but I waited like everyone else, poring over the screenshots of interesting gear that would elevate some of my 28th level toons to the next tier power-wise.

Then it came out.

I was incredibly disappointed. Like REALLY let down. Everything about this release just aggravated me, from PRR changes, to the CON drain on the Doomspheres, to the absolute impossible rarity of some of the items that I'd love to have. Slogging through Epic Necropolis and the Orchard has been a chore.

This doesn't mean I'm quitting. Just, for the first time in a very long time, I have had NO desire to play at all. It's uncanny. The day before the release, I was still playing a lot and having fun. A few days after? Zip.

You guys really let me down. This release was a complete failure.

What items, why is the PRR change bad and why is it a chore to play epic necro?

[moo_cow]

I was indifferent to the release of U23: The Mark of Death, but I waited like everyone else, poring over the screenshots of interesting gear that would elevate some of my 28th level toons to the next tier power-wise.

Then it came out.

I was incredibly disappointed. Like REALLY let down. Everything about this release just aggravated me, from PRR changes, to the CON drain on the Doomspheres, to the absolute impossible rarity of some of the items that I'd love to have. Slogging through Epic Necropolis and the Orchard has been a chore.

This doesn't mean I'm quitting. Just, for the first time in a very long time, I have had NO desire to play at all. It's uncanny. The day before the release, I was still playing a lot and having fun. A few days after? Zip.

You guys really let me down. This release was a complete failure.

I seriously can't believe that people complain about drop rates being too rare. The items drop way too often. It should takes weeks - months to get good items, not running the quest 4 times. Can't take anyone seriously if they think loot is hard to get, it's absurdly easy to get.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Complaining abut drop rates for items in the newest raid after...what 2-3 weeks since it released?
Did you miss the grind to get ESOS? EThornlord? ERoSS? EE Ivy Wraps? The correct Dun'Robar seal? The correct Avithoul seal?
Have you never farmed the same quest hundreds of times to get a single item that just refuses to drop?
I have. There's noting wrong with the drop rates, we've just gotten spoiled with quick and easy loot for the last few updates.

[axel15810]

I seriously can't believe that people complain about drop rates being too rare. The items drop way too often. It should takes weeks - months to get good items, not running the quest 4 times. Can't take anyone seriously if they think loot is hard to get, it's absurdly easy to get.

I agree, I actually feel the drop rates in the quests are too generous. I've run the chain 5 times all on EH and I'm getting about 2 items per full chain run. One dropping in one of the chests, and one on the end reward list.

Now on the other hand the drop rate in the raid is ridiculous - I've heard of groups running the raid over 20 times and only seeing 1 piece of loot drop for anyone.

But to the OP - calling this the worst release I couldn't disagree with more. That distinction has to go to the Wheloon expansion. There was no raid, VIPs had to pay up and most hated the quests and their mechanics.

[Blackheartox]

Only things i dislike about this update are:
-quests are to easy
-raid is to boring and a farm normal fest since there is no reward for eh or ee beside couple more tapestries
-raid is not challenging like old abbot is/was /its practically a tavern brawl
-helms dont have a higher enough chance on ee to be mythic
-there is apsolutely no reward for running ee quests and i dont like that trend
-prr/mrr changes made melles practically immune to damage
-new loot is mostly easy to get totally invalidating other hard to get by loot from recent packs/it was to fast to add such strong loot
-harper tree is pure moneywashing
-paladins are the to go for anybuild which isnt really fun when they instead making balanced buff so much that its the really only options to play something

[BigErkyKid]

Only things i dislike about this update are:
-quests are to easy
-raid is to boring and a farm normal fest since there is no reward for eh or ee beside couple more tapestries
-raid is not challenging like old abbot is/was /its practically a tavern brawl
-helms dont have a higher enough chance on ee to be mythic
-there is apsolutely no reward for running ee quests and i dont like that trend
-prr/mrr changes made melles practically immune to damage
-new loot is mostly easy to get totally invalidating other hard to get by loot from recent packs/it was to fast to add such strong loot
-harper tree is pure moneywashing
-paladins are the to go for anybuild which isnt really fun when they instead making balanced buff so much that its the really only options to play something

while I agree with most points, what do you actually like about the update?

[Blackheartox]

while I agree with most points, what do you actually like about the update?


No need to swing 50 times in air while preping blitz

[Livmo]

Have you never farmed the same quest hundreds of times to get a single item that just refuses to drop?


OMG yes that darn right sigil frame from Inferno :D Multiple lives too!

True story, then I run with a group at level 28 on a whim and got the right frame last life. At L28 I went into the Litany part afterwards and got annoyed by the black dragon questions then he killed me with his bad breath :/

Annoyed I TR'ed the next day after a 1 and only 1 visit to the first part.

Now I'm back up to L19 and ran with some friends and got the right sigil again! First try too!

The funny part if over a year or more ago I lost the desire to try that silly raid due to the right sigil. I think it drops now for me, because I no longer want it : ) )

[Portalcat]

I seriously can't believe that people complain about drop rates being too rare. The items drop way too often. It should takes weeks - months to get good items, not running the quest 4 times. Can't take anyone seriously if they think loot is hard to get, it's absurdly easy to get.

This. I had the loot I cared about from the quests within the first week. I even have a couple of mythic helms that I can't use on my toons and can't sell because they're BtA.

Run EE Orchard, which is way easier than EE Storm Horns was when it was new despite being 2 levels higher and possibly still easier than WGU right now, and the drop rates are really generous.



This content has an absurdly short lifespan specifically because the loot is too easy to acquire. I and others warned that this would be the case with untiered BtA and that was before we knew how generous the drop rates would be on quest items or that the content would relatively easy on EE. I can only hope that they recalibrate going forward.

[PermaBanned]

...the absolute impossible rarity of some of the items that I'd love to have. The Mythic Helms are supposed to be rare - and really, they're the only things that are...

[Lonnbeimnech]

Now on the other hand the drop rate in the raid is ridiculous - I've heard of groups running the raid over 20 times and only seeing 1 piece of loot drop for anyone.

You think chest ransack might have something to do with it?

[axel15810]

You think chest ransack might have something to do with it?

I have no idea in what span of time the group did the runs.

Even assuming they all ran it up to ransack, getting 1 piece of loot in 90 or so pulls is ridiculous. And I know they did atleast 1 EE run - no idea if the others were all EN or if they mixed some EH in there.

[blerkington]

Hi,

U23 does have some problems, but I'm not sure it's accurate to call it the worst release ever.

In addition to the problems mentioned by some other posters, the things which bug me about epic orchard are:

* Fast travel arrival points in the wilderness which are not close enough to the quests, and are near monster spawn points. It's not a big deal, but I can't see a good reason for it being done differently this time. Plus it makes my legs tired.

* Some odd decisions about loot design. Useless properties on some items, like save bonuses which are eclipsed by regular resistance items. The Epic Ring of Unknown Origins seems particularly pointless, and the idea that someone would spend 120 hard-earned raid tapestries to upgrade it is pretty laughable. An otherwise blank ring with four (c/y/b/g) slots on it would have been much better, unless the next update is going to be all magic- and projectile-immune air elementals.

* No apparent reason to complete quest optionals to get shield/tome chests. Maybe these do have a chance to drop named items, but I haven't seen it happen even once in many, many runs, nor has anyone else I've asked ever seen it happen either. What are these chests for; just more trash loot, healer's kits and arrows? Is this unimaginative design, a bug, or just me being very unlucky?

* Beholder CON drain. Too much, too often, and apparently not graded much (if at all) by difficulty. Running into a couple of doomspheres in the wilderness should not be anywhere near as dangerous as it is.

* Flip-flopping on who is immune to intercession. It's super lame to keep changing the game rules because you want to use an existing special attack in a new pack. Just add a new or special version of the attack instead, rather than lazily rewriting the laws of how the world works every few updates. It sucked (and was also pointless) when the changes were made to poison and disease, but here we are again.

Despite these problems, I've had a fairly good time in the epic orchard and in the raid too.

Thanks.

[Eth]

Update 14 wants to have a word with you.

[Njohrd]

U23:

Adds a level 30 raid with desiderable loot --> GOOD
Encourage 20 mindeless raid EN farms to get the loot you want (like temple and peaks) --> BAD

Adds 4 nice quests with interesting loot (plus the super rare overpowered mythic helms +_+) --> GOOD
Quests are too easy, and basically identycal to their heroic versions --> BAD

PRR, MRR, Blitz and Paladin changes are very good, more viable options for build a powerful toon
Epic orchard is a cool epic wilderness area.


I feel that U23 ha suffered some development problems, good attention to game mechanism and to balance more class for endgame has withdraw a lot of devpower from the new content released... i would have preferred the release 1 moth later but with epic necro4 worked out a little better.

I hope that the next barbarian pass wont cost us some flaws in the anarouch desert...

[Vellrad]

* Fast travel arrival points in the wilderness which are not close enough to the quests, and are near monster spawn points. It's not a big deal, but I can't see a good reason for it being done differently this time. Plus it makes my legs tired.


Are you kidding?

[barecm]

Not even close to worse release ever which was and still is, the original Abbot raid, mod (not update) 5 release. It was broken and unplayable and yet released. That was the last release before they stopped production for like a year before free to play went live. It was augmented by the fact that it came on the heels of possibly the greatest release ever... Gianthold, Mod 4.

[Dalsheel]

Complaining abut drop rates for items in the newest raid after...what 2-3 weeks since it released?
Did you miss the grind to get ESOS? EThornlord? ERoSS? EE Ivy Wraps? The correct Dun'Robar seal? The correct Avithoul seal?
Have you never farmed the same quest hundreds of times to get a single item that just refuses to drop?
I have. There's noting wrong with the drop rates, we've just gotten spoiled with quick and easy loot for the last few updates.

+1

[Chauncey1]

I was indifferent to the release of U23: The Mark of Death, but I waited like everyone else, poring over the screenshots of interesting gear that would elevate some of my 28th level toons to the next tier power-wise.

Then it came out.

I was incredibly disappointed. Like REALLY let down. Everything about this release just aggravated me, from PRR changes, to the CON drain on the Doomspheres, to the absolute impossible rarity of some of the items that I'd love to have. Slogging through Epic Necropolis and the Orchard has been a chore.

This doesn't mean I'm quitting. Just, for the first time in a very long time, I have had NO desire to play at all. It's uncanny. The day before the release, I was still playing a lot and having fun. A few days after? Zip.

You guys really let me down. This release was a complete failure.

I think you are in rare company indeed. Most everyone I have talked to LOVES the update.
I sure do.

[Impaqt]

Not even close to worse release ever which was and still is, the original Abbot raid, mod (not update) 5 release. It was broken and unplayable and yet released. That was the last release before they stopped production for like a year before free to play went live. It was augmented by the fact that it came on the heels of possibly the greatest release ever... Gianthold, Mod 4.

Your timetable is far off.

there was over a year of releases between Necro 4 and the dark time. Highlighted by the Shroud. but Revers refuge was in there as well.


Titan was actually released in a worse state than Abbot. Abbot was beatable. and was beaten several times. just without doing the minigames.

Regardless... I've found U23 to be entertaining.
Content wise, I'd give it a "D". The 4 flagging quests are just rehashes with new mobs. no imagination went into the upgrades at all. The lack of LotD was a huge letdown as well as that was the highlight quest of od4 imo. the raid could of been a lot better as well.

that being said, Harper, PRR/MRR Changes and the loot overall make up for the bad content.

[Blackheartox]

Complaining abut drop rates for items in the newest raid after...what 2-3 weeks since it released?
Did you miss the grind to get ESOS? EThornlord? ERoSS? EE Ivy Wraps? The correct Dun'Robar seal? The correct Avithoul seal?
Have you never farmed the same quest hundreds of times to get a single item that just refuses to drop?
I have. There's noting wrong with the drop rates, we've just gotten spoiled with quick and easy loot for the last few updates.

Ransacked vol chest on ee 3 times /during 3 etrs and 5 bots for loot ransacked as well.
I have no issue whatsover to farm for a item, but i have a issue that people are reporting that they are getting it on eh/en more frequently.
I pulled so far only 2 non mythic gazes in how many loots? hmm 24 + 40 / 64 ee chest loots.
They got in around 1 ransack cycle aka 8-16 loots regulary on eh or en..
What i dont like is that really the further they go the less reason you have to do ee at all.

I got 3 sos shards so far during my ddo career, have eross, every dun ring i wanted, red dragon armors..
Im ok with farm, but im not ok with ee being utter waste of time.

I can bet all my years off ddo playing that they didnt change mythic chance drop on ee or eh, that its the same for all difficulties

[blerkington]

Are you kidding?

Hi,

Like I said, it's not a big deal.

But I would prefer being able to use fast travel to avoid combat in the wilderness area. If I want to fight, I'll run to the quest instead.

Thanks.

[Impaqt]

Hi,

Like I said, it's not a big deal.

But I would prefer being able to use fast travel to avoid combat in the wilderness area. If I want to fight, I'll run to the quest instead.

Thanks.

the Orchard teleporter dude absolutely puts you in a position where combat is NEVER required.

[blerkington]

the Orchard teleporter dude absolutely puts you in a position where combat is NEVER required.

Hi,

This is only true if your response to being attacked is to run to the quest entrance and go in without fighting your attackers.

As a little experiment, I just used the fast travel option in epic orchard.

At Ghosts of Perdition, I was immediately attacked by two doomspheres. More usually it's werewolves. Their leash is long enough that they can follow you up the hill and attack you right at the door.

At Vol, I was attacked by an Emerald Claw Scourge, an Elder Quell and a zombie. It was as soon as I loaded in, and hadn't moved yet. Fighting back can attract the attention of other creatures nearby, such as the usual spawn on the terrace level of the temple below the ramps.

At Inferno, there were two Nightshade Horror between me and the quest entrance. Due to the way they were facing, they didn't see me right away, but as I was tabbed out typing this they noticed me and attacked.

Fleshmaker's is the only quest where the spawns are normally far enough away not to notice you and attack.

Like I said in my first post, it's not a big deal. I just don't see why in the other areas where we have fast travel to quests we can usually avoid being attacked, but in the Epic Orchard we can't.

It's kind of a pain when you're waiting outside because not everyone arrives at the same time, and reduces the usefulness of the fast travel feature.

Thanks.

[bsquishwizzy]

Remember the day when running the Shroud for greensteel mats was "just the way you had to do it?"

Low-magic settings are looking more, and more attractive every day...

[Angelic-council]

Just wait for U24, new level cap with the big update.
New map: Anauroch? Most importantly, I wonder if they actually going to add high lvl spells into a spell book... Anyhow, U23 was ok.. I'm very disappointed that everyone can get awesome gear regardless of what difficulty they play, but U24 is the real concern here.

[Powskier]

so its the same as all the other updates? very rare drops for stuff u want...turbine shoots par!

[Seikojin]

OMG yes that darn right sigil frame from Inferno :D Multiple lives too!

True story, then I run with a group at level 28 on a whim and got the right frame last life. At L28 I went into the Litany part afterwards and got annoyed by the black dragon questions then he killed me with his bad breath :/

Annoyed I TR'ed the next day after a 1 and only 1 visit to the first part.

Now I'm back up to L19 and ran with some friends and got the right sigil again! First try too!

The funny part if over a year or more ago I lost the desire to try that silly raid due to the right sigil. I think it drops now for me, because I no longer want it : ) )

LOL, I hear ya there.

u23 doesn't disappoint me, just not having people to group with does.

[Krelar]

Just wait for U24, new level cap with the big update.
New map: Anauroch? Most importantly, I wonder if they actually going to add high lvl spells into a spell book... Anyhow, U23 was ok.. I'm very disappointed that everyone can get awesome gear regardless of what difficulty they play, but U24 is the real concern here.

Unless I missed a recent change U24 is not the level cap increase or Anaurach. It's the new event using mabar's items and some new quests that we haven't been told anything about yet.




Update 24 will round out the year with new quests, new Festivult cookies, and a new event that centers on something we can all agree on: looting chests!



We’ll be continuing our work on the Anauroch Desert (in the Forgotten Realms), planning for Sentient Weapons, and developing another Classic Dungeon like the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar. We expect these to be something you’ll see in the first half of 2015.



We’re pushing out the level cap for now to make sure we have plenty of questing to support your journey through the highest levels of DDO. Hitting level 30 will be a big milestone for DDO, and we want to put it out when the timing is right, and make sure its design keeps up with the way you, the players want to play DDO

[TheOnly_LightInDark]

Not even close to worse release ever which was and still is, the original Abbot raid, mod (not update) 5 release. It was broken and unplayable and yet released. That was the last release before they stopped production for like a year before free to play went live. It was augmented by the fact that it came on the heels of possibly the greatest release ever... Gianthold, Mod 4.

That's not true Mod 8 Way of the Monk was brought in before Free to play so at least 3 mods after 5

[Vanhooger]

I think that with Update 23 they went way to far for melee.

Just yesterday I was in vol ee with a friend.

I got red alert in a lvl 30 ee quest. Didn't had any issue while completely surrounded by like 20 + mob, and never got near death once.

Before melee where very hard to paly because of the damage spike especially if no evasion, but now is the opposite, they're god mode.

Also for Mythic elm, I already dropped 2 Mythic Emerald Gaze, and 1 Mythic Seraphim all of them on ee. Probably lot of luck this time.

[General_Gronker]

It should takes weeks - months to get good items,No, it shouldn't. That's both bad design and lazy thinking on the part of those who think it's appropriate.

[BigErkyKid]

No, it shouldn't. That's both bad design and lazy thinking on the part of those who think it's appropriate.

So exactly what replay value would there be in DDO without character progression via loot and PLs?

[Sarzor]

I think you are in rare company indeed. Most everyone I have talked to LOVES the update.
I sure do.

Most of the people I talk to have the following thoughts:
1) Non-raid loot is really easy to get. Mythic less so, but mythic really isn't so much better.
2) Raid loot is a 'wait to 20th' thing. No-one is happy with this.
3) Quests are fairly easy for their level.
4) Wilderness is very well done.
5) Quells suck. They really were beefed up to the point of overpowered.
6) Doomspheres were overpowered to the point of absolute stupidity. Heroic quest con-draining someone for 30 per shot? And getting several of those shots in a very short timeframe? Seriously?
7) I like the teleport thing. It's convenient.
8) Quests are basically exactly the same, with slightly changed mobs. Wow, instead of mephits we get incredibly annoying air elementals! Wow, such originality!

As far as other changes:
1) People like PRR, especially since it gives paladins god mode.
2) Noone uses blitz any more. If they were trying to make people use other EDs, they succeeded. If they were trying to balance, they did a terrible job of it.

[BigErkyKid]

Most of the people I talk to have the following thoughts:
1) Non-raid loot is really easy to get. Mythic less so, but mythic really isn't so much better.
2) Raid loot is a 'wait to 20th' thing. No-one is happy with this.
3) Quests are fairly easy for their level.
4) Wilderness is very well done.
5) Quells suck. They really were beefed up to the point of overpowered.
6) Doomspheres were overpowered to the point of absolute stupidity. Heroic quest con-draining someone for 30 per shot? And getting several of those shots in a very short timeframe? Seriously?
7) I like the teleport thing. It's convenient.
8) Quests are basically exactly the same, with slightly changed mobs. Wow, instead of mephits we get incredibly annoying air elementals! Wow, such originality!

As far as other changes:
1) People like PRR, especially since it gives paladins god mode.
2) Noone uses blitz any more. If they were trying to make people use other EDs, they succeeded. If they were trying to balance, they did a terrible job of it.

I think this summarizes consensus pretty well IMO.

Personally, PRR seems low hanging ATM and I don't bother using blitz aside from on bosses.

Content wise, I would rate this expansion as a failure. Quests are easy in general and the raid has already been mastered and enslaved. Runs last now so little that it is hard not to say it has been trivialized.

The loot is very good and people like it (with exceptions), but powerful loot is not really the key point of an expansion.

Yes, it drops fast in quests and almost never in the raid, but that is a different topic.

[arkonas]

No, it shouldn't. That's both bad design and lazy thinking on the part of those who think it's appropriate.

seriously? this is what is wrong with the people today who say give me give me. this isn't a one play type game. its not one of those games that has 9hrs of game play and you're done. sorry but you need to earn stuff not be given it on a silver platter.

[Paleus]

So exactly what replay value would there be in DDO without character progression via loot and PLs?

This is not a contradiction to what you are asking. But, for me personally, DDO replay value is found in playing as different types of characters. So I personally like the update specifically because the vanguard tree gave me a new character type to play around with. I haven't tried incorporating the Harper tree yet to a character, but I hear some good things.

I don't see how this is the worst release ever. I think the OP might be conflating game fatigue overall with the release though. One thing that I find about releases is if you don't like the new quests, then a release combined with an event is going to drain the number of players doing other things, which could make the release period feel less enjoyable as there are fewer people to run with doing things you do like. Since I'm not doing Cove and only really doing Necro on the weekends, my TR life this time around has made it feel like I'm more or less stalking about three or four players because they are the only ones on doing the things in the level ranges that I want to do and I'm basically a pure pugger these days. Though I'm not complaining, its been fun.

[axel15810]

I think that with Update 23 they went way to far for melee.

Just yesterday I was in vol ee with a friend.

I got red alert in a lvl 30 ee quest. Didn't had any issue while completely surrounded by like 20 + mob, and never got near death once.

Before melee where very hard to paly because of the damage spike especially if no evasion, but now is the opposite, they're god mode.




Na, the game is much much more balanced now.

Melees are still getting pounded on 24/7, have very low dodge cap and can't use evasion.

Ranged and casters rarely get touched if played right and can use evasion and dodge.

And lets not forget that while melees got a boost in survivability, their DPS was reduced as masters blitz got a heavy nerf. I think the playing field is pretty balanced now between melee and casters. Casters should play a lot smarter now - instead of just zerging and blowing everything up, there's now a good reason to let melee grab aggro first and then start ranging things. The change did do a lot to encourage group play.

[Therigar]

What items, why is the PRR change bad and why is it a chore to play epic necro?

Don't know about the first two but as to epic necro -- it wasn't exactly a hot spot for players before it became epic.

Turbine has a tendency to take wastelands from heroic content and turn them into epic content as if that will boost player interest in those quests.

I can honestly say that I avoid Three Barrel Cove. There isn't anything there that I feel the need to run and there isn't any loot there that I feel I must have. Making it epic did not change that.

I hardly ever run anything in the Red Fens. Same thing, there isn't anything there that I need or want. That the quests there have epic options doesn't change that for me.

The last time I ran quests in the Desert of Menechtarun it was The Chamber of Raiyum and it was part of an epic XP zerg. I see LFMs from time to time for the raid but I can't be bothered to even flag. Again, there is nothing from any of the quests that I want or need.

As for Necropolis, I usually do not run any of the chains -- not the first one, not the second, not the third and certainly not the fourth. In this case it isn't because there is no loot out there that i want -- it is because it is not solo friendly. It is possible that I have never run Litany of the Dead or Ascension Chamber -- and I've been playing DDO since '06.

These areas are not compelling stories, they do not offer reasonable access to must have loot, they are just retreads of old quests and not anything new.

I did not mention Gianthold because I have always enjoyed those quests. But the same thing hold true about the epic versions. They are just a tired retread of the heroic quests.

Now, I get it that some players like each of the areas that I don't like. That's great. But be honest, look at the complexity of the quests -- their length, difficulty, loot and XP -- and look at the favor rewards for completing them. There is no reason to run any of those areas.

To be really honest, I have a L28, two L26 and a L21 character and none of them has done any of the Underdark quests or more in Eveningstar than Wheloon, the King's Forest and/or the High Road.

When you are playing for XP -- which is my main focus -- you don't really need to hit any of those areas. And, when a quest line comes out that just takes a heroic area you don't play and turns it into an epic area -- well, you continue to not play there.

I do not agree with the assessment that U23 is a bad release. I quite like the changes that were made. But, the new adventure area -- I might never play those quests because they simply are not worth my time or effort to complete and they do not offer me anything compelling to draw me to them.

[Therigar]

Let me make one more point.

The last several releases from Turbine seem to focus on undead. I play characters that don't fare especially well against undead. I am big on melee and slashing/piercing weapons.

When the bulk of the mobs and bosses you will face are ones that you are not prepared to fight it takes all real interest in the area out of it for me.

I don't expect Turbine to change directions for me. But the question was asked about why epic Necro 4 is bad. Not solo friendly and filled with mobs that I don't do well against -- that is enough for me.

I'm not willing to switch to builds and classes that I don't like to play just to deal with the mobs. And that still doesn't address the retread of heroic content or lack of solo friendliness.

[Axeyu]

Not even close to worse release ever which was and still is, the original Abbot raid, mod (not update) 5 release. It was broken and unplayable and yet released. That was the last release before they stopped production for like a year before free to play went live. It was augmented by the fact that it came on the heels of possibly the greatest release ever... Gianthold, Mod 4.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Modules_and_updates

You forgot the vale, shroud, vision of destruction, hound of madness, devil assault, reavers refuge and the entire monk class.

[Therigar]

So exactly what replay value would there be in DDO without character progression via loot and PLs?

I've long held that the replay value should be minimal to start with. The idea of grinding for loot seems well established and accepted by gamers but I have to say that I really don't like it.

Neither do I like Monty Haul approaches. There should be a balance and I think that the balance should be connected to completions with loot being offered in end rewards as BtC. IMO every 10 completions should give at least a partial list of items and every 50 completions should give a near complete list. I don't care if people use raid timers to bypass wait times -- more money for Turbine and a chance the game keeps running longer.

As to past lives, IMO that is a good reason to replay since you are gaining XP in order to reincarnate. I've been playing since '06 and I really wish I'd put all my effort into 1 or 2 characters. Instead I've run a stable of characters -- 30+ at some points -- with multiple rolls and rerolls. While many players who have played much shorter time have 3 past lives in every class and epic completionist I am working with my first completionist and barely have a single past life in every class.

It isn't the loot that makes grinding worth grinding -- it is the XP as I eek out another past life. That is what makes replay worthwhile. The mindless grind for gear is just stupid.

[BigErkyKid]

I've long held that the replay value should be minimal to start with.

That killed me. Surely you did not mean that you don't want replay value in a game (replay value means that it is fun when you repeat content).



It isn't the loot that makes grinding worth grinding -- it is the XP as I eek out another past life. That is what makes replay worthwhile. The mindless grind for gear is just stupid.

Now, would you care to explain me what is the difference between getting a very exclusive item that gives +3 evocation DC or getting 3 sorc PLs?

Of course I have things in mind, but I'd like to know what is in yours.

Just to be clear, I am not hiding anything, the best replay value should come from the game being able to provide a constant stream of new content (not replay per se in terms of instances, but replay broadly understood as in replay DDO) AND having mechanisms to provide some novelty every time I re run a quest.

[janave]

U23 is fine, the hotfix is a wreck tho.

If they would want more staying power for eOrchard they could just add Litany spiced up with some cool hidden rooms HH style, add some extra optional minibosses on the way to the old flag bosses, etcetc.

That quest alone had so much potential really. They just have to swap some named mobs.

[Vellrad]

It isn't the loot that makes grinding worth grinding -- it is the XP as I eek out another past life. That is what makes replay worthwhile. The mindless grind for gear is just stupid.

So mindless grind for loot is bad, but even more mindless grind for XP is good?

[Therigar]

That killed me. Surely you did not mean that you don't want replay value in a game (replay value means that it is fun when you repeat content).

I use to run D&D as a DM and my players never repeated a single bit of content -- even the occasional bar fights were unique and one-off occurrences. Having run games for multiple years with a core of as many as a dozen players, I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of no replay whatsoever. In a perfect world I would prefer that zero replay was possible, even after reincarnation.

Of course, DDO doesn't have the flexibility of an actual creative mind making real time adjustments and spawning dungeons, encounters and revised story lines based on player actions. As a computer game it is forced (well, not really forced, but chooses) to rely on some replay. I would much prefer that replay to be restricted to repeat lives rather than be available to characters in their present life.


Now, would you care to explain me what is the difference between getting a very exclusive item that gives +3 evocation DC or getting 3 sorc PLs?

No.


Of course I have things in mind, but I'd like to know what is in yours.

You are not alone. Several people would like to know what is in my mind.


Just to be clear, I am not hiding anything, the best replay value should come from the game being able to provide a constant stream of new content (not replay per se in terms of instances, but replay broadly understood as in replay DDO) AND having mechanisms to provide some novelty every time I re run a quest.

Which puts us in a similar place. Replay just to grind for an item is stupid. Replay to relevel a new life is a defacto necessity. I really don't care about the novelty item. I think adjusting quest end rewards to offer them after a fixed number of completions handles that well enough.

[Oliphant]

Although I think players took a power quantum leap, which is sketchy for PvE balance, I think U23 is fantastic because it made armor mechanics rational again. Now we can have tanks and play trinity style in hard content if we want to. Now you have tradeoffs between uber evasion builds and heavy armor builds. In general, I think they've been making fantastic big picture changes to the game over the last few years. The latest update power increase is a bit scary though.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Though one big difference between video games and pen and paper; if you fight an orc, and he was wielding leather armor and a +1 vorpal sword, you get leather armor and a +1 vorpal sword as loot when he dies. There isn't a 5% chance that he will drop it, he just drops it.

[Therigar]

So mindless grind for loot is bad, but even more mindless grind for XP is good?

Yes. I said that already.

Look, there is an XP requirement at every level. You have to get that XP somehow. I've said in other threads that I'd prefer a no quest repeat mechanism -- a one and done. Recently I posted an idea that quests should have two modes -- solo and group. Underlying that idea is a basic belief that once run that players should move on -- maybe even have no choice but to move on -- to another quest.

Earlier in this thread I posted about the number of places I don't quest. Why should I? There is nothing to attract me to those areas and nothing to compel me to run those quests. There is no story line, no character progression, nothing to tie me to them.

I think that's a problem. I think that the story lines should be interrelated (they are in many cases, although you'd never know it) and that each life my character should need to step through most of the story in order to reach L28.

The loot is just part of the reward system. It isn't the goal. The goal is to reach level cap and along the way to save or destroy the world.

In the original D&D game a rare item was a mid-term objective that helped to further the total quest arc. That drew from mythology and heroic literature -- the search for the Holy Grail or the Golden Fleece. The Grail and Fleece were not the reason for the quest -- they were the object that somehow saved the world and saving the world was the goal of the quest.

So for me grinding for XP is the reason for the game. Grinding for loot is just stupid.

[Therigar]

Though one big difference between video games and pen and paper; if you fight an orc, and he was wielding leather armor and a +1 vorpal sword, you get leather armor and a +1 vorpal sword as loot when he dies. There isn't a 5% chance that he will drop it, he just drops it.

Unless it breaks, is ruined, has an alignment issue.... Can't count the number of times we bypassed dead orc loot because it was, well, dead orc loot. A 5% chance that we actually took note of the loot, figured out what it was and kept it to use, trade or sell -- probably about right.

[Therigar]

In general, I think they've been making fantastic big picture changes to the game over the last few years.

I agree.

[Paleus]

-snip-
I've said in other threads that I'd prefer a no quest repeat mechanism -- a one and done. Recently I posted an idea that quests should have two modes -- solo and group. Underlying that idea is a basic belief that once run that players should move on -- maybe even have no choice but to move on -- to another quest.
-snip-
So for me grinding for XP is the reason for the game. Grinding for loot is just stupid.

I have to say, this sounds like a very bad idea. I personally dont mindlessly repeat quests, but if I've already run a quest and a buddy who logs on hasn't run that quest, I'm going to want to be able to re-run it with them. Taking away that option would honestly kill the game because it would further separate the players. Giving players the choice to re-run a quest, and instead tweaking rewards (XP and loot) and leveling requirements so that they won't feel the need to re-run quests would be a much better way to achieve your goal.

For me, grinding XP and grinding for loot are two different ways of grinding for character power, but you're still grinding. The difference is that with TRing Turbine create a system whereby XP has more long-lasting rewards and is more reliable. With loot, Turbine has a habit of making the prior update's loot obsolete, and even without unnecessary obsolescence, each piece of loot is static and only gives the benefit while the player is using it. So whenever new levels let you equip new loot your old loot becomes meaningless for having unless you are going to TR. Additionally, loot is a chance based reward for full items. In contrast, the effects of XP persist at all levels and are not made obsolete by new releases. It is also something acquired at a steady, predictable, and guaranteed pace. Taking these together, I can see how some think grinding for loot is stupid.

But honestly, you're still grinding. The only reason it feels stupid to some is because Turbine designed a system of TRing that gives you an endless grind that provides guaranteed, but incremental character power versus a grind that provides character power on a chance basis and some people prefer that guarantee of increased power.

Also, side note, you sell loot in the store through raid bypasses, and you sell XP in the store through XP pots, hearts, stones, etc.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Unless it breaks, is ruined, has an alignment issue.... Can't count the number of times we bypassed dead orc loot because it was, well, dead orc loot. A 5% chance that we actually took note of the loot, figured out what it was and kept it to use, trade or sell -- probably about right.

Ok then. what if we are fighting a lich that's trying to become a god, he has the litany of the dead on one hand and the staff of the petitioner in the other. We kill him and he drops +5 healer kits and a heavy mace of plant bane... Doesn't make any sense. In pnp he would drop the staff and the litany and robe and what ever else the first and only time we kill him.

In other words if there was a lock out mechanic for quests, named loot would need a 100% drop rate.

[BigErkyKid]

Ok then. what if we are fighting a lich that's trying to become a god, he has the litany of the dead on one hand and the staff of the petitioner in the other. We kill him and he drops +5 healer kits and a heavy mace of plant bane... Doesn't make any sense. In pnp he would drop the staff and the litany and robe and what ever else the first and only time we kill him.

In other words if there was a lock out mechanic for quests, named loot would need a 100% drop rate.


But you would kill him once and why then kill him again?

DDO needs some replay value simply because content does not come fast enough and we don't have the usual sources of replay value (PVP, sandbox).

U23 provides little to non in the quests and after the initial rampage the raid. Items drop easily in the quests and I won;t re run them because they are just the very same old necro 4 quests changing some mobs. It is not fresh content to keep me engaged; it has been static content that has existed for how many years? The raid is very farmable (very quick runs with bypassers) so people will farm, get what they want and call it a day.

In terms of content, it is not engaging. Now in terms of mechanics, it has given a massive boost to PRR. It has come with very low hanging PRR too. Its a change in the mechanics, perhaps in the right direction (heavy armor viable), but resulting in the default for a lot of builds being that, heavy armor. Shielders are viable too after the update. This is good too. But then, with all these changes, EE has become easier. So the ultimate reason why anyone would grind (bragging rights in EE) has been removed to an extent from the game. So overall, very damaging changes in the mechanics.

That's why I am not happy with the update.

[Certon]

It hasn't changed one bit. I still don't want to play, and that makes me sad. I want so bad to WANT to play again. I've just been deflated so much by this release.

Oh well. Only time will tell. Maybe this weekend I will log in with my IRL friends and play lowbies or something.

[JOTMON]

I was indifferent to the release of U23: The Mark of Death, but I waited like everyone else, poring over the screenshots of interesting gear that would elevate some of my 28th level toons to the next tier power-wise.

Then it came out.

I was incredibly disappointed. Like REALLY let down. Everything about this release just aggravated me, from PRR changes, to the CON drain on the Doomspheres, to the absolute impossible rarity of some of the items that I'd love to have. Slogging through Epic Necropolis and the Orchard has been a chore.

This doesn't mean I'm quitting. Just, for the first time in a very long time, I have had NO desire to play at all. It's uncanny. The day before the release, I was still playing a lot and having fun. A few days after? Zip.

You guys really let me down. This release was a complete failure.

pft. The gear is awesome, and worth every minute of the grind.

The MoD raid is decently designed, and wayyy easier than Heroic Abbott.
The downside of this is that Heroic Abbott is now dead. there is no incentive whatsoever to run heroic after the release of this easy pack epic.
They should have made the items be upgradable from heroic to epic, instead of complete versions dropping in epic in a easy 20 or less runs on normal.
That way people would have to run heroic to get base items and upgrade them in the epic runs.

but hey, its an easy farm and will be run by all of my alts to get all these shineys.

[noble_pirate]

laughing at OP moaning ) moar cry, plz )) : popcorn :

you really spoiled by previous casual-style updates..

[Vellrad]

laughing at OP moaning ) moar cry, plz )) : popcorn :

you really spoiled by previous casual-style updates..

Lol, u23 is more casual stlye than previous updates.
Quests are easy, and gear is better that whatever we had until now.
You don't need to run mod to replace most, if not all, items on your character.

[Singular]

Let me make one more point.

The last several releases from Turbine seem to focus on undead. I play characters that don't fare especially well against undead. I am big on melee and slashing/piercing weapons.

When the bulk of the mobs and bosses you will face are ones that you are not prepared to fight it takes all real interest in the area out of it for me.

I don't expect Turbine to change directions for me. But the question was asked about why epic Necro 4 is bad. Not solo friendly and filled with mobs that I don't do well against -- that is enough for me.

I'm not willing to switch to builds and classes that I don't like to play just to deal with the mobs. And that still doesn't address the retread of heroic content or lack of solo friendliness.

Sorry, if you're unwilling to change your character to deal with the mobs you're facing, this is a "your problem thing" and not a "DDO content thing." If you're still playing the game, I guess you'll simply avoid epic Necro.

Your last sentence, however, is spot on. Yes, it's time for new content, not simply epifying old content - and doing so easier than the original content at level.

[Singular]

pft. The gear is awesome, and worth every minute of the grind.

The MoD raid is decently designed, and wayyy easier than Heroic Abbott.
The downside of this is that Heroic Abbott is now dead. there is no incentive whatsoever to run heroic after the release of this easy pack epic.
They should have made the items be upgradable from heroic to epic, instead of complete versions dropping in epic in a easy 20 or less runs on normal.
That way people would have to run heroic to get base items and upgrade them in the epic runs.

but hey, its an easy farm and will be run by all of my alts to get all these shineys.

What worries me is the long term replayability of the raid. If someone really wanted all the items from there on one character, it would take 180 runs of it. At that point, unless they need tapestry pieces, other than "just for fun" and "supporting my friends" there's no in-game incentive to run it. Fortunately it's a short run and there are lots of people who run raids for entertainment and not character building.

And no one is actually going to want all that stuff - probably at most 4 pieces. That's 80 runs - and some people have reached near that by now.

So, I guess, good for alts. But long term playability? Look at what happened to FoT and CitW - seldom run now.

[JOTMON]

What worries me is the long term replayability of the raid. If someone really wanted all the items from there on one character, it would take 180 runs of it. At that point, unless they need tapestry pieces, other than "just for fun" and "supporting my friends" there's no in-game incentive to run it. Fortunately it's a short run and there are lots of people who run raids for entertainment and not character building.

And no one is actually going to want all that stuff - probably at most 4 pieces. That's 80 runs - and some people have reached near that by now.

So, I guess, good for alts. But long term playability? Look at what happened to FoT and CitW - seldom run now.

That is the way these raids go.
Titan was run to death for chattering ring and 7 fingered gloves until people got them then they moved on.
I don't see 60ish runs/toon as being unreasonable life expectancy.

FOT is still run for items and commendations.
Gear slot items with augments are epic level range useful.

CiTW.. meh.. wasn't a fan of mana drain mechanics.. raiders boxes killed the raid for many players.
- loot didn't survive past the next updates.. nothing unique in here to encourage people to want to run it beyond its original release.

Shroud is the anomaly as far as raids go.. there is a lot of current/post life useful things in shroud that extend its life indefinitely.

MoD I see being run for quite some time, the items are excellent with 2 augment slots after upgrading.. and easy run.
Many will burn through and raid bypass to excess on their main toons, but the items in here will be desirable for every alt as well.
I have a lot of alts.. so I see myself spending a lot of time here...

[Robai]

U23 is not so bad since there are new decent BtA items. Not to mention that it's free for those who have the pack.
Each update should have had more bankable BtC space though.
Since it's unlikely that the old bank system will ever be fixed we need a new bank system, which would be sortable/searchable and expandable as much as you need (if you can afford that).

[Knight_slayer]

I have all the gear from MoD on my main toon and none on any alts but thats how I progress my account. I like to max out my main first and then I work on my alts.

I had my main waiting as 18 pally, 1 fighter, 1 ranger fot the armor-up update and MoD release. Awesome build for farming MoD FYI. I had a stash of raid bypasses and knocked out 100 completions. As a guess I'd say 50 run on hard, 40 normal and 10 elite. I was off ransack for 24 completions. I did not pull 1 peice of loot, that's not a complaint just saying. We ran on hard many times because of better drop rates and more taps.

This is the culture of this raid however, smash out completions on normal or hard for 20th lists. Its not fun but neither is running super hard content for no extra reward. That reward, or the hope of it, is what makes tough content enjoyable for the majority. EE TOR, people wanted that globe of blood so there were often groups going in for EE runs. That made it a fun pack for everyone. Not just the EE augments but the fact the loot was BOE makes it content that can be farmed by shard/plat farmers. Hell I still run the dragon chests today. Haunted halls is another good example of that. One item in particular, mystic eidolons still sells very well so you often see groups for it.

So once you have your 60-120 MoD's and the gear you want from the side quests, what then?

I'm not sure who the devs are taking advise from in the creation of end game content but the loot mechanic systems inplace for the U23 content isn't a system supported by any endgamer I know. This system is not healthy for the endgame because it ends in nothing to do!

[haulindonkey]

Hi,

This is only true if your response to being attacked is to run to the quest entrance and go in without fighting your attackers.

As a little experiment, I just used the fast travel option in epic orchard.

At Ghosts of Perdition, I was immediately attacked by two doomspheres. More usually it's werewolves. Their leash is long enough that they can follow you up the hill and attack you right at the door.

At Vol, I was attacked by an Emerald Claw Scourge, an Elder Quell and a zombie. It was as soon as I loaded in, and hadn't moved yet. Fighting back can attract the attention of other creatures nearby, such as the usual spawn on the terrace level of the temple below the ramps.

At Inferno, there were two Nightshade Horror between me and the quest entrance. Due to the way they were facing, they didn't see me right away, but as I was tabbed out typing this they noticed me and attacked.

Fleshmaker's is the only quest where the spawns are normally far enough away not to notice you and attack.

Like I said in my first post, it's not a big deal. I just don't see why in the other areas where we have fast travel to quests we can usually avoid being attacked, but in the Epic Orchard we can't.

It's kind of a pain when you're waiting outside because not everyone arrives at the same time, and reduces the usefulness of the fast travel feature.

Thanks.

I seriously think you have a persistent hate magnet on you left over from running Dr. Rushmore challenges...

[haulindonkey]

Just wait for U24, new level cap with the big update.
New map: Anauroch? Most importantly, I wonder if they actually going to add high lvl spells into a spell book... Anyhow, U23 was ok.. I'm very disappointed that everyone can get awesome gear regardless of what difficulty they play, but U24 is the real concern here.

Nope, no Anauroch indefinitely shelved. Need to check the forums more often.