Dragon Phlogiston Droprate

[morkahn82]

On Khyber dragonraids are rarly run in PUG, and if so on EN difficulty. Droprate of Phlogiston is 50% (or lower) afaik on EN.

Do you really want me to run 60 raids to get those Phlogs to craft a single item? Or should tier3 thunderforged items only be for raid timer bypass abusers and dupers? Or is 20 run reward list offering 30 phlogs? So that we can get 1 item / 20 raids like in other raids?

The consequence is that i completely gave up running those raids for now.

[moo_cow]

On Khyber dragonraids are rarly run in PUG, and if so on EN difficulty. Droprate of Phlogiston is 50% (or lower) afaik on EN.

Do you really want me to run 60 raids to get those Phlogs to craft a single item? Or should tier3 thunderforged items only be for raid timer bypass abusers and dupers? Or is 20 run reward list offering 30 phlogs? So that we can get 1 item / 20 raids like in other raids?

The consequence is that i completely gave up running those raids for now.

This is why we want bypass timers to be nerfed/removed and drop rates to be increased. And of course for duping to be fixed.

[shores11]

Why not just ask for the DM's to come on and pass one to you. Or for that matter any loot you want. There needs to be a reason to play the game geez...

[AbyssalMage]

Why not just ask for the DM's to come on and pass one to you. Or for that matter any loot you want. There needs to be a reason to play the game geez...
And there needs to be a reason for you to troll.

[JOTMON]

On Khyber dragonraids are rarly run in PUG, and if so on EN difficulty. Droprate of Phlogiston is 50% (or lower) afaik on EN.

Do you really want me to run 60 raids to get those Phlogs to craft a single item? Or should tier3 thunderforged items only be for raid timer bypass abusers and dupers? Or is 20 run reward list offering 30 phlogs? So that we can get 1 item / 20 raids like in other raids?

The consequence is that i completely gave up running those raids for now.



Sounds like something the new generation of players seem to crusade behind..

boo hoo you have to run this more than once to be able to craft the best endgame items.
boo hoo only cheaters can get Phlogiston's because you cant find pug parties to take you along.

Get over it, so what if it takes 40+ runs to craft the third tier of items
You can craft tier 2 relatively quickly.
There is an option for 10 on the end reward list.

Make a choice, get people together and run it.. staring at the LFM for a PUG group to form and join is the lazy approach.
Put up your own LFM's.

Thundeforged is no different than Shroud when it was endgame, many many runs to get to be able to craft stuff.
This is a long term game, adapt and play it like a long term game.

Too many people are playing now expecting to get the best of the best stuff without having to grind for it.
Its this mentality that is killing the game. too many I want all the best stuff and I want it now..

So what if it takes 6 months to get it, deal with it.
So what if someone else has theirs crafted and you haven't.. its not a competition.
there's not a limited supply and it will run out before you get there.
You will get yours when you earn it.



This is why we want bypass timers to be nerfed/removed and drop rates to be increased. And of course for duping to be fixed.


These are valid issues.
Bypass timers should never have existed.

Drop rates should be relevant to the Quest/Raid.. I would generally expect to get at least 1 item i want in 20 runs.
Thunderforged crafted items drop rate should be a bit better. more like guaranteed 1 norm and better on EH/EE.. double each time.. so EN 1, EH 2, EE 4.
Duping/exploits.. and any other broken mechanics.. these should be fixed immediately upon discovery. or gap-fix measures to stop the damage as quickly as possible.

[BigErkyKid]

So what if it takes 6 months to get it, dal with it.
So what if someone else has theirs crafted and you haven't.. its not a competition.
there's not a limited supply and it will run out before you get there.
You will get yours when you earn it.

Well, there are several issues with that, but most importantly:

The longer you take, the more likely that something comes out that invalidates TF weapons.

Look at the history of the game with MOTU and post MOTU. So many items have been negated that having to plan for 6 months is a very risky bet, you may end up with something no longer useful.

[Krelar]

Drop rate on EN seems better than 50% to me. I've run 34 Deathwyrms all but 2 on EN and I have 27 phlogistons so more like 75%. Of course I've also only seen 3 named items drop out of the end chest in that time.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Transfer your character to argo. People actually pug this and put phlogs up for roll. No joke.

[JOTMON]

Well, there are several issues with that, but most importantly:

The longer you take, the more likely that something comes out that invalidates TF weapons.

Look at the history of the game with MOTU and post MOTU. So many items have been negated that having to plan for 6 months is a very risky bet, you may end up with something no longer useful.

This is the nature of the game, newer stuff is always on the horizon.

Like buying a new Computer, You can try and wait for the perfect one, but there is always a better one coming.

Do you get the best you can get now, or wait for the next one..

[ToastyFred]

And there needs to be a reason for you to troll.

No there doesn't.

[JOTMON]

Transfer your character to argo. People actually pug this and put phlogs up for roll. No joke.

Shush. These are not the pug runs you are looking for... move along...

[PermaBanned]

The longer you take, the more likely that something comes out that invalidates TF weapons.

Look at the history of the game with MOTU and post MOTU. So many items have been negated that having to plan for 6 months is a very risky bet, you may end up with something no longer useful.

Yeah, umm... It took how long for TForged to come along and surpass CitW weapons? And if you participate in the Epic/Iconic Reincarnation cycles, which of those two will be useful during a larger portion of play time?

[blerkington]

On Khyber dragonraids are rarly run in PUG, and if so on EN difficulty. Droprate of Phlogiston is 50% (or lower) afaik on EN.

Do you really want me to run 60 raids to get those Phlogs to craft a single item? Or should tier3 thunderforged items only be for raid timer bypass abusers and dupers? Or is 20 run reward list offering 30 phlogs? So that we can get 1 item / 20 raids like in other raids?

The consequence is that i completely gave up running those raids for now.

Hi,

The drop rate seems to be about 50% on EN, yes.

You only get 10 phlogs on your 20th reward list, and some of the other items are very tempting.

If you want to run these raids I'd be happy to help out. Let me know if you are planning them or send me a tell if you see me on.

Thanks.

[PermaBanned]

On Khyber dragonraids are rarly run in PUG, and if so on EN difficulty. Droprate of Phlogiston is 50% (or lower) afaik on EN.

Do you really want me to run 60 raids to get those Phlogs to craft a single item? Or should tier3 thunderforged items only be for raid timer bypass abusers and dupers? Or is 20 run reward list offering 30 phlogs? So that we can get 1 item / 20 raids like in other raids?

The consequence is that i completely gave up running those raids for now.

Two questions:

How many did you run before giving up?

How many were on diminished loot (no chance for Phlogs) from using timers?

[Blackheartox]

I did around 80 runs and gave up after finishing 2 t3s which also takes into account that i got many phlogs passed to me or i bought them off chest.

[DarthCaedus]

Drop rate on EN seems better than 50% to me. I've run 34 Deathwyrms all but 2 on EN and I have 27 phlogistons so more like 75%. Of course I've also only seen 3 named items drop out of the end chest in that time.

That sounds more like the EH drop rate. EN is definitely around 50% with many many runs as a basis point. EE is 100%. EH is around 75%.

[DarthCaedus]

I did around 80 runs and gave up after finishing 2 t3s which also takes into account that i got many phlogs passed to me or i bought them off chest.

Running EN you will get around 20 phlogs with 20 runs if you take the 10 phlog choice as your 20th reward. On Sarlona it was farmed alot. The new raid I rarely see pugged except in the early morning US hours.

[Blackheartox]

Running EN you will get around 20 phlogs with 20 runs if you take the 10 phlog choice as your 20th reward. On Sarlona it was farmed alot. The new raid I rarely see pugged except in the early morning US hours.

I wanted belt and bracers, took after that from list.. And i was still lacking.. My luck with that raid is horrible counting that most of my runs were eh some on ee and en later on.
Pulled a sos shard recently for a friend so game prolly refusing to give me phlogs ;)

[vengfarga]

Sounds like something the new generation of players seem to crusade behind..

boo hoo you have to run this more than once to be able to craft the best endgame items.
boo hoo only cheaters can get Phlogiston's because you cant find pug parties to take you along.

Get over it, so what if it takes 40+ runs to craft the third tier of items
You can craft tier 2 relatively quickly.
There is an option for 10 on the end reward list.

Make a choice, get people together and run it.. staring at the LFM for a PUG group to form and join is the lazy approach.
Put up your own LFM's.

Thundeforged is no different than Shroud when it was endgame, many many runs to get to be able to craft stuff.
This is a long term game, adapt and play it like a long term game.

Too many people are playing now expecting to get the best of the best stuff without having to grind for it.
Its this mentality that is killing the game. too many I want all the best stuff and I want it now..

So what if it takes 6 months to get it, deal with it.
So what if someone else has theirs crafted and you haven't.. its not a competition.
there's not a limited supply and it will run out before you get there.
You will get yours when you earn it.





These are valid issues.
Bypass timers should never have existed.

Drop rates should be relevant to the Quest/Raid.. I would generally expect to get at least 1 item i want in 20 runs.
Thunderforged crafted items drop rate should be a bit better. more like guaranteed 1 norm and better on EH/EE.. double each time.. so EN 1, EH 2, EE 4.
Duping/exploits.. and any other broken mechanics.. these should be fixed immediately upon discovery. or gap-fix measures to stop the damage as quickly as possible.


Ok, I'll bite.
Don't think OP was ... and I KNOW I'm not ... demanding sweet lootz without the effort. But for those of us in 'bunch of RL pals' guilds or playing at funny times (or both, like me) the LFM route to getting raid stuff is the only option. Back when end game was 20 then finding LFM shrouds was fairly easy (as long as you 'fast runs/no complete/know it'ed.) Now? Not been that long but trying to find a group to Phlog slog via LFM is a nightmare.

Sure bypasses are a part of this. But I think we all know why so many are not bothering - a 'feature' that was horribly over used by a few too many.
What it's ended up with is an even greater divide between the 'haves' and 'have nots' - but with more resentment.

Guys like you and your pals (I assume) who legitimately ran these raids hard as a team to get what you need should be something to admire. As it is, everyone I talk to who doesn't have their top tier TF gear and Epic Completionist just kinda assumes anyone they don't know personally who DOES, got there by nefarious means.

So, making some ways to re-level the playing field - even if it means giving casual players things others grinded hard - might not be a horrible idea. Or, anything else - new loot, special augments, whatever - but if the best loot comes out of end game raids ... a lot of players need end game raids to be running.

[morkahn82]

Running EN you will get around 20 phlogs with 20 runs if you take the 10 phlog choice as your 20th reward. On Sarlona it was farmed alot. The new raid I rarely see pugged except in the early morning US hours.

Well, at least it is good to know that 20th reward list offers 10 phlogs. It would actually help if they were bta, so you can make use of your other characters.

[Hendrik]

Why not just ask for the DM's to come on and pass one to you. Or for that matter any loot you want. There needs to be a reason to play the game geez...

Exactly!

Why play the game when I can go buy T2 Thunderforged weapons and only enter Thunderholm once to access the Forge.

[Hendrik]

Well, there are several issues with that, but most importantly:

The longer you take, the more likely that something comes out that invalidates TF weapons.

Look at the history of the game with MOTU and post MOTU. So many items have been negated that having to plan for 6 months is a very risky bet, you may end up with something no longer useful.

You mean just like every single update? This has been going on since MOD2 and should not surprise anyone that new updates bring new loot and new choices.

[JOTMON]

Ok, I'll bite.
Don't think OP was ... and I KNOW I'm not ... demanding sweet lootz without the effort. But for those of us in 'bunch of RL pals' guilds or playing at funny times (or both, like me) the LFM route to getting raid stuff is the only option. Back when end game was 20 then finding LFM shrouds was fairly easy (as long as you 'fast runs/no complete/know it'ed.) Now? Not been that long but trying to find a group to Phlog slog via LFM is a nightmare.

Sure bypasses are a part of this. But I think we all know why so many are not bothering - a 'feature' that was horribly over used by a few too many.
What it's ended up with is an even greater divide between the 'haves' and 'have nots' - but with more resentment.

Guys like you and your pals (I assume) who legitimately ran these raids hard as a team to get what you need should be something to admire. As it is, everyone I talk to who doesn't have their top tier TF gear and Epic Completionist just kinda assumes anyone they don't know personally who DOES, got there by nefarious means.

So, making some ways to re-level the playing field - even if it means giving casual players things others grinded hard - might not be a horrible idea. Or, anything else - new loot, special augments, whatever - but if the best loot comes out of end game raids ... a lot of players need end game raids to be running.


So because a bunch of people cheated DDO should just give everyone else stuff to even the playing field?.. I think not.. track down the exploiters and deal with them.

We run all Epic content every chance we get, generally in channels, and top up with pugs or shortman
I don't have top tier TF, only tier 2, gave most of mine to guildies to get them to T3,
I am playing a long term game, so I am not rushing to craft T3 ..just collecting to make sure what I craft is what I want.


In general I do see a smaller number of LFM's and a increase in closed channel runs.
If your play is up to par you will find your way into channels.

[Violith]

Well, at least it is good to know that 20th reward list offers 10 phlogs. It would actually help if they were bta, so you can make use of your other characters.

Thats the only thing I dont like.. its not the amount that you need, its that they are btc. 30+ runs (sure you maybe lucky and get it in 20 with the 20th rewards, but witht he drop rates most people take an item they want form that.) for each item for each character that could want one is abit much. I rarely run that many raids on a character

shroud, which was a popular and probably the most run raid in n the game preepic change, only required a character run it to get 3-4 btc items. the new model for rads to require more then 20 to get even a single item is rather annoying.

[lugoman]

You mean just like every single update? This has been going on since MOD2 and should not surprise anyone that new updates bring new loot and new choices.

No one is complaining about new loot in new updates replacing old loot. They are complaining about low drop rates and high ingredient cost of making Thunder-Forged weapons. Getting the phlogs/ingots for a complete tier 3 weapon takes way to long. By the time I make a tier 3 weapon for all my toons they will be obsolete. This is bad game design.

And no, I don't want a dev to spawn them in my inventory the day a raid is opened. I don't see how changing a 3% drop rate to a 6% drop rate is wanting everything handed to me.

[Hendrik]

No one is complaining about new loot in new updates replacing old loot. They are complaining about low drop rates and high ingredient cost of making Thunder-Forged weapons. Getting the phlogs/ingots for a complete tier 3 weapon takes way to long. By the time I make a tier 3 weapon for all my toons they will be obsolete. This is bad game design.

And no, I don't want a dev to spawn them in my inventory the day a raid is opened. I don't see how changing a 3% drop rate to a 6% drop rate is wanting everything handed to me.

ANYONE, right now with access to the Forge, can make a T2 weapon is less then 3 minutes without ever entering HH, Thuinderholm, or either Raids.

Not to be rude, but it is that line of thinking that the exploiters use to justify what they are doing - it's to hard, to difficult, takes to long.

If they made T3 weapons so easy to get, everyone would have one and they would complain that they have them and that the raids are dead.

If you want an increased drop rate, do high difficulty. Remember, people want challenge and high drop rates. They have the way to get them right now. But see, they do not want to do the harder difficulties for higher drops, they want higher drops for the lowest difficulty so they do not have to face the challenge or be faced with any difficulty.

We were given the choice higher drops for a higher challenge. Even with the numerous outcries that the game is to easy and people wanting higher drops, all they want is higher drops for the easiest difficulty.

There is a reason why we don't see EE specific loot, people want the loot but do not want to do the setting to get it, again, they want the easiest setting for the best loot. Boils down to wanting the best reward for little to no risk.

[lugoman]

ANYONE, right now with access to the Forge, can make a T2 weapon is less then 3 minutes without ever entering HH, Thuinderholm, or either Raids.

Not to be rude, but it is that line of thinking that the exploiters use to justify what they are doing - it's to hard, to difficult, takes to long.

If they made T3 weapons so easy to get, everyone would have one and they would complain that they have them and that the raids are dead.

If you want an increased drop rate, do high difficulty. Remember, people want challenge and high drop rates. They have the way to get them right now. But see, they do not want to do the harder difficulties for higher drops, they want higher drops for the lowest difficulty so they do not have to face the challenge or be faced with any difficulty.

We were given the choice higher drops for a higher challenge. Even with the numerous outcries that the game is to easy and people wanting higher drops, all they want is higher drops for the easiest difficulty.

There is a reason why we don't see EE specific loot, people want the loot but do not want to do the setting to get it, again, they want the easiest setting for the best loot. Boils down to wanting the best reward for little to no risk.

I like to earn my loot, it's what makes the game fun to me. I could easily buy some duped ingots/scales on the exchange and get my t2 weapon. That is boring to me. I agree t2 weapons are too easy to make, but t3 takes way to long.

I am in a small guild and rely on pugs to do the raid. I rarely see eh raid run and never see ee pugged, at least on Cannith.

[Eth]

I'd rather see them fix the ingot droprate.

[Loholt-UK]

This is why we want bypass timers to be nerfed/removed

We? Speak for yourself, don't assert that "we" want this at all.

[Oxarhamar]

Thats the only thing I dont like.. its not the amount that you need, its that they are btc. 30+ runs (sure you maybe lucky and get it in 20 with the 20th rewards, but witht he drop rates most people take an item they want form that.) for each item for each character that could want one is abit much. I rarely run that many raids on a character

shroud, which was a popular and probably the most run raid in n the game preepic change, only required a character run it to get 3-4 btc items. the new model for rads to require more then 20 to get even a single item is rather annoying.

It is actually more advantageous to take the Phlogistons in your first 20th reward list

here is why:

if you take an Item (bracers) and then (bracers) drop for you or go up for roll you've wasted your 20th list on and item you could have just pulled in one go.


Take the phlogiston first continue to raid while gathering more then take your item later. There is much more power in the tier3 weapons than the items anyways.

[Eth]

if you take an Item (bracers) and then (bracers) drop for you or go up for roll you've wasted your 20th list on and item you could have just pulled in one go.


Good luck with that. I had 1 named item in my name in 200 runs.

[Oxarhamar]

Good luck with that. I had 1 named item in my name in 200 runs.

I haven't run nearly that many and have seen many items go up for roll

why?

because, a good portion of players are taking the items in their first 20th list then are left with no option but, to let it rot in the chest, vendor it or put it for roll.

[Eth]

I haven't run nearly that many and have seen many items go up for roll

why?

because, a good portion of players are taking the items in their first 20th list then are left with no option but, to let it rot in the chest, vendor it or put it for roll.

Good for you.

[Oxarhamar]

Good for you.

Same thing is happening with Items in MOD players who took them on 20th are putting them up for roll when they drop.

hey, that's how I got a lot of my gear running with guild mates who all had it already back when I first started raiding and that is how my guild mates get their Phlogs now because, I have all mine and am willing to run the raids and roll the Phogs

[redoubt]

Two questions:

How many did you run before giving up?

How many were on diminished loot (no chance for Phlogs) from using timers?

I'm not upset with Perma and I believe he has a valid question to ask. The real problem has already been explained and it revolves around the current loot system and duping. Back when the shroud was king, my guild did 2 runs every day. We rotated our healers to always have enough (remember using healers?). You would get 6 runs every three days. All your characters got the shards to craft with, but you could pass ingredients to the ones you really wanted items on. You could trade ingredients with other players even after looting them. This system worked very well. It took a while to get really going with ingredients, but it felt like far more progress than the current system of do 20 and pick an item. At least the new one gives the whole list, unlike CITW. Anyway, to answer Perma's question...

I did 120 runs on my monk to get the chattering ring. Do the math, that took 360 days minimum. My other character that has it took 80 runs. I had a regular pug of sorts. People would log in every three days and watch for my LFM. I'd have the 6ish I needed to complete before I could get to the isles and teleport out. Often they would fill before the preraid was done.

I did 20 runs (in one life; more like 100 total) of CITW. Again, I led most of them, but filling was a different experience. I tried using bypass timers but I could not get people to join most nights. If I was lucky I could get one on Friday night and one on Saturday night.

I've run well over 20 of each of the new dragon raids. I tried to put one together today (a Sunday evening) to help a friend get a 20th. Noone would join. This is the same issue I had trying to hit the magic 20 in CITW. The raid is long, not great xp and the drop rate sucks. Between timer bypasses and the raiders boxes you can't pay people to run this.

Its happening now with thunder peaks and deathwrym.

The lesson is: if you want to get loot from a new raid. Run nothing but it when it first comes out. Use your trading cards, buy them in the store or buy them on the auction, but buy timers and run the snot out it before the powergamers stop running it. If you wait, then you will be down to casuals who only sorta want it anyway, but won't bother because the drop rate is low and you need to run 20 to get an item.

Loot Early... Loot Often.

Questions?

There is a slim possibility that people will continue to run Mark of Death for tapestry pieces as those do not drop if you are ransacked. But this hinges on people actually needing 2 slots on every piece of gear. If not, Mark will ghost town out like most of them do from the early overgrind. Am I doing it? Sadly yes, but I've come to realize that if I ever want to get an item from there, I have to get it now; if I try to run once every three days that's two months. The runs during the week will dry up before then and it will become more like 3-4 months. I've done that grind before (see 360+ days to get chattering ring above.) That was way too much investment for something that has been turned into junk. LELO

[DarthCaedus]

No one is complaining about new loot in new updates replacing old loot. They are complaining about low drop rates and high ingredient cost of making Thunder-Forged weapons. Getting the phlogs/ingots for a complete tier 3 weapon takes way to long. By the time I make a tier 3 weapon for all my toons they will be obsolete. This is bad game design.

And no, I don't want a dev to spawn them in my inventory the day a raid is opened. I don't see how changing a 3% drop rate to a 6% drop rate is wanting everything handed to me.

This seems like a smart approach. After the raid has been out for a while double the drop rates. This will encourage people to run it more.

When U21 came out I could easily run both raids 8x per week on my main characters. After a few months LFMs dry up and/or take much longer to fill or are run short-manned.

Right now 40 runs on EN will take 120 days without a bypass timer (not that it matters they aren't run much any more). 40 runs will get you 20 phlogs + 10 as an end reward + 1 named item as an end reward. Most likely no other named items dropped so for 120 days you get

1 named item
1 tier 3 thunderforged weapon

With your proposal that would take 60 days. Seems more than reasonable considering the # of people that had multiple tier 3s the first day by using other methods.

Do the devs not understand why the current drop rates drive away the honest players with other activities in their life?

[Thar]

BTA should have been the setup from the beginning. No reason for BTC when you only need one type for certain recipes. Did they expect people to build multiples and run the raids 100s of times for phlogs (and what about DI drop rates?)

[Hendrik]

I like to earn my loot, it's what makes the game fun to me. I could easily buy some duped ingots/scales on the exchange and get my t2 weapon. That is boring to me. I agree t2 weapons are too easy to make, but t3 takes way to long.

I am in a small guild and rely on pugs to do the raid. I rarely see eh raid run and never see ee pugged, at least on Cannith.

You don't see those run because people do not want that challenge - it too hard. Even with people claiming the game is to easy.

They want the cake walk Raid/Quest and want to be overly rewarded for it.

[axel15810]

I've given up on ever getting a tier 3 TF weapon. I don't use timer bypasses except on rare ocassions and it's just way too difficult to get regular groups together to run the raid every 3 days. Duping and Timer Bypasses ruined it. Everyone already has their weapons via duping or honestly grinding out the raid quickly via raid timer bypasses.

It's really sad, because the raid isn't THAT old. We should still see regular LFMs up, but instead the raid is dead. At this point I feel like the only way someone could get a T3 thunderforged is to dupe, because fiinding a regular full or next to full group to run them is extremely difficult.

And about the droprate, yes it's too low.

[slarden]

You don't see those run because people do not want that challenge - it too hard. Even with people claiming the game is to easy.

They want the cake walk Raid/Quest and want to be overly rewarded for it.

They were run plenty when the raids were new. However, forcing people to run the content beyond the point of boredom to get their gear is a really bad thing. Once people have what they need - they may never set foot in the raid again.

[MeliCat]

That the raids are not run as much is more a reflection of the raiding scene generally and the diminishing population I suspect.

I am in a sucky timezone. I need to pick my times to get groups together (either super early in the morning or Sat mid-morning). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I have been trying to get 20 runs for one character in now for about 3 months. She's at 15 runs. Some weeks I do not get any runs in as I can't get into a group or I can't get enough people to run a group.

Good thing is that people can now get into the raid from 20 instead of 26. So that opens up a larger group of people who can run it.

Bad thing - the raid xp *sucks*. So, no end game, people etr as nothing much to do for some, sucky xp is no incentive to jump in and get a raid done. I put up a von56 and I get people.

I would like to get in 20 wyrms, fires and marks before I TR her again. It's been like 3 months and I've got to 15 on fires and wyrms. It's been like... 2 weeks? (and a TON of timers bought on both the AH and the store - there goes ALL my plat) and I've got 15 marks.

I think the drop rate of phlogiston's is reasonable. Particularly now that the loot has mostly been surpassed at on 20 I'm intending to take the phlog rather than the items for wyrm. Fire I'm looking forward to the meridian fragment.

[vengfarga]

So because a bunch of people cheated DDO should just give everyone else stuff to even the playing field?.. I think not.. track down the exploiters and deal with them.

We run all Epic content every chance we get, generally in channels, and top up with pugs or shortman
I don't have top tier TF, only tier 2, gave most of mine to guildies to get them to T3,
I am playing a long term game, so I am not rushing to craft T3 ..just collecting to make sure what I craft is what I want.


In general I do see a smaller number of LFM's and a increase in closed channel runs.
If your play is up to par you will find your way into channels.

Hi,

Sorry - once I re-read what I wrote, I realised maybe it wasn't very clear. I didn't mean we should all be given free stuff! The Raider's Boxes proved that.
What I meant was that either end game top gear needs to be something that small groups of players can actually achieve without help ... OR something that requires the hardcore/serious players to continue playing ad infinitum - something like GS from Shroud as an example. I made my first full shroud item out of the same run others in the group made their 3rd, or 7th or 100th ... but it still ran ALL the time because everyone wanted to keeping making more stuff.
The recent 'unintended feature' killed off an awful lot of raid groups (shroud included) but if some NEW loot - augments, items, whatever - were added to them, maybe they'd run again and the rest of us could finish making what the pros (fairly) and the dupers (unfairly) already have. And OK, that gives us casuals the same chance to get the cool new loot as those who already ran these raids to death as well as getting the benefits of building our TF or GS or whatever - but I don't see that as such a terrible thing.