More Layoffs at Turbine

[DarthCaedus]

That can't be good or can it?

Rumor is that Turbine is focusing more on mobile games. LOTRO 2 for the iphone?

How does this impact the future of DDO? Is the game unofficially in maintenance mode now?

[dredre9987]

This is a very common thing in the industry. Remember they just got Infinite Crisis up recently. Usually they will hire more for the start of a game and once it is stable lay off.

[Chai]

Not to those numbers however.

They claim to be realigning their company to create and market mobile apps and games.

[dredre9987]

Not to those numbers however.

They claim to be realigning their company to create and market mobile apps and games.


Link for that please?

[Qhualor]

LOTRO 2 on the iPhone? no thnx. mobile games like Candy Crush are good time wasters when you are waiting to board your plane, get a haircut or praying to the commode gods but I would never play an actual game like DDO on my phone. I know theres a lot of money with mobile games but its not the same as playing on a computer. too much immersion lost.

[cdbd3rd]

Link for that please?

Not sure if this is the same as OP is looking at, but here's one:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/10/15/rumor-turbine-going-through-more-layoffs/

[Violith]

http://www.joystiq.com/2014/10/15/layoffs-hit-infinite-crisis-developer-turbine/

also here states that as many as 80 people may have been laid off
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/227842/More_layoffs_strike_Lord_of_the_Rings_Online_studi o_Turbine.php

[dredre9987]

Nothing about mobile whatsoever....and numbers for layoffs so far are simply rumors

[cdbd3rd]

Nothing about mobile whatsoever....

Numbers are irrelevant, layoffs are not good for the people getting sacked just before the holidays (again). :( :mad:


As for Mobile or not... *shrug*. Whatever they mean by "growth areas" still cost people jobs.

[mudfud]

Nothing about mobile whatsoever....and numbers for layoffs so far are simply rumors

The comment about going mobile was from a person commenting about it who claims he was a ddo dev who supposedly created weapons/items here who got laid off. Guess he didn't care to let office secrets out since he has been gone for awhile now and established at another gaming company in cali.

[DarthCaedus]

Can't link it because I don't know if links are allowed to the site, this is from a former developer that posts on that site from time to time.

"The layoffs were companywide, as they usually are. LotRO, DDO, and IC were all affected, as were QA and customer service.?*

Turbine's being realigned to be a mobile game studio. DDO and LotRO don't really need many people to maintain operations.

With luck, I'll be getting some of the friends who were laid off today out here with me in California. =)

-former DDO dev, left for greener pastures earlier this year."

[dredre9987]

Can't link it because I don't know if links are allowed to the site, this is from a former developer that posts on that site from time to time.

"The layoffs were companywide, as they usually are. LotRO, DDO, and IC were all affected, as were QA and customer service.?*

Turbine's being realigned to be a mobile game studio. DDO and LotRO don't really need many people to maintain operations.

With luck, I'll be getting some of the friends who were laid off today out here with me in California. =)

-former DDO dev, left for greener pastures earlier this year."


I know the person you speak of. Tell me how he would know what Turbine's plans are though...Since he was gone a while ago. I also know why he is no longer at Turbine. He isn't the most trustworthy of sources either.

[mudfud]

Tell me how he would know what Turbine's plans are though...Since he was gone a while ago.

Things are planned far in advance. This could be something that was planned near the beginning of the year when he was still here.
Mobile does seem a good way to go, but not for someone already established as turbine.

[waryJerry]

Firing a bunch of people whenever a product is "done" is business as usual in a fairly scummy business. Some people, though, seem to be saying this is normal and nothing to worry about. If you think all is honky dory here in Turbineland you may in fact have your head up your backside--because you don't seem to be paying attention. For all I know DDO may limp along for another ten years but make no mistake that it's in the process of dying.

[dredre9987]

Firing a bunch of people whenever a product is "done" is business as usual in a fairly scummy business. Some people, though, seem to be saying this is normal and nothing to worry about. If you think all is honky dory here in Turbineland you may in fact have your head up your backside--because you don't seem to be paying attention. For all I know DDO may limp along for another ten years but make no mistake that it's in the process of dying.

Lmao. This has been said for over 8 years now.

[Chai]

Link for that please?

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/lord-rings-online-dead-layoffs-turbine-seem-point-new-direction-studio-390442

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/227842/More_layoffs_strike_Lord_of_the_Rings_Online_studi o_Turbine.php

[Thayion516]

Can't link it because I don't know if links are allowed to the site, this is from a former developer that posts on that site from time to time.

"The layoffs were companywide, as they usually are. LotRO, DDO, and IC were all affected, as were QA and customer service.?*

Turbine's being realigned to be a mobile game studio. DDO and LotRO don't really need many people to maintain operations.

With luck, I'll be getting some of the friends who were laid off today out here with me in California. =)

-former DDO dev, left for greener pastures earlier this year."


This is what is interesting to me. So its like 10 peeps running DDO? No wonder they are slow as snails. Prolly a real PITA to be overworked and under paid (never seen a company overpay and lay off). Prolly doing them a favor by letting them go....

As far as the Mobile Industry goes, it's the future, like it or not. Instantaneous accessibility and data will be the steps forward in all electronic industries. The Millennial generation will be coming into their prime within the next 10 years and that is all they know and demand. My children will be raised on Google Glass and touchscreen everything with kinetic interfaces.

[DakFrost]

Lmao. This has been said for over 8 years now.

I'm not sure what you consider to be an "alive' game, but DDO hasn't released any new content in awhile (recycled old content isn't new), have servers that are ghost towns, and just reduced it's already lean staff.

For all practical purposes, DDO is in intensive care and only a completely oblivious person thinks all is well.

[Oliphant]

Lmao. This has been said for over 8 years now.

Must be miserable to be on a low population server for 8 years having folks tell you your problem doesn't exist. Ghallanda was supposed to be one of the higher pop servers but it's too dead for my taste now. I'd say doom but that would imply something ominous about the future when the problem is happening right now.

[DarthCaedus]

I know the person you speak of. Tell me how he would know what Turbine's plans are though...Since he was gone a while ago. I also know why he is no longer at Turbine. He isn't the most trustworthy of sources either.

The same way I know the inner workings of a company I used to work for - friends.

It's the best information I've heard to date and it actually makes sense to me.

[ToastyFred]

Link for that please?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/10/15/rumor-turbine-going-through-more-layoffs/

[dredre9987]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/10/15/rumor-turbine-going-through-more-layoffs/

Again nothing about the mobile...

[dredre9987]

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/lord-rings-online-dead-layoffs-turbine-seem-point-new-direction-studio-390442

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/227842/More_layoffs_strike_Lord_of_the_Rings_Online_studi o_Turbine.php


Hmmm. The one listing things about mobile are sites that never disclose any sources whatsoever. Kind of not reliable. I don't doubt the lay offs but I do doubt that Turbine is going to focus on mobile.

[DarthCaedus]

Hmmm. The one listing things about mobile are sites that never disclose any sources whatsoever. Kind of not reliable. I don't doubt the lay offs but I do doubt that Turbine is going to focus on mobile.

Feel free to ignore Turbine's linked-in entry as unreliable also:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/turbine

"Turbine Turbine is seeking an experienced Art Director to work with our awesome team on developing our newest mobile title! If you know a talented leader who fits the bill, send them our way!
Job details
careers.timewarner.com
SUMMARY OF POSITION Turbine is seeking an Art Director to work with internal and external artists to produce industry-leading concepts, models, textures, user interfaces, VFX, and animations for our newest Mobile Title. The role of the Art..."

"Turbine is hiring: Senior Mobile Release Engineer
Careers at TurbineSee more jobs
8 days ago"

It seems fairly easy to verify the mobile direction is plausable.

[waryJerry]

So until the suits at Time Warner show up at Dredre's house in their BMWs and Lexuses and personally disclose to him (or her) their business plan at Turbine, let's all consider things honky dory here in Turbineland and plan out our 312th life for our beloved characters.

[dredre9987]

Feel free to ignore Turbine's linked-in entry as unreliable also:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/turbine

"Turbine Turbine is seeking an experienced Art Director to work with our awesome team on developing our newest mobile title! If you know a talented leader who fits the bill, send them our way!
Job details
careers.timewarner.com
SUMMARY OF POSITION Turbine is seeking an Art Director to work with internal and external artists to produce industry-leading concepts, models, textures, user interfaces, VFX, and animations for our newest Mobile Title. The role of the Art..."

"Turbine is hiring: Senior Mobile Release Engineer
Careers at TurbineSee more jobs
8 days ago"

It seems fairly easy to verify the mobile direction is plausable.


Now that is reliable and thank you.

[dredre9987]

So until the suits at Time Warner show up at Dredre's house in their BMWs and Lexuses and personally disclose to him (or her) their business plan at Turbine, let's all consider things honky dory here in Turbineland and plan out our 312th life for our beloved characters.


Sorry I don't believe everything anyone with a computer posts on the internet. Especially a site known for misinformation. A site that refuses to list any sources as well ;)

[Thayion516]

Feel free to ignore Turbine's linked-in entry as unreliable also:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/turbine

"Turbine Turbine is seeking an experienced Art Director to work with our awesome team on developing our newest mobile title! If you know a talented leader who fits the bill, send them our way!
Job details
careers.timewarner.com
SUMMARY OF POSITION Turbine is seeking an Art Director to work with internal and external artists to produce industry-leading concepts, models, textures, user interfaces, VFX, and animations for our newest Mobile Title. The role of the Art..."

"Turbine is hiring: Senior Mobile Release Engineer
Careers at TurbineSee more jobs
8 days ago"

It seems fairly easy to verify the mobile direction is plausible.

Yup .. That's concrete stuff. You don't post a position like that without plans. It also refers to a whole Team of mobile designers.

Hello MicroHDMI Output from my Note3 going to a monitor with a bluetooth keyboard/mouse. The next Gen of top mobile devices will pack the same punch as my PC. And honestly, unless you are looking for that top 5% of extreme performance in a video game, a mobile device can deliver comparable image quality and frame rate. Example, the Note4 is a beast on spec outputs.

[waryJerry]

The sky is not falling, DreDre announces through his bullhorn to the panicking mob, until I say it is. I am the only reliable chicken little on the internet--the rest are unreliable. So stop panicking and get back to planning out the 313th life of your beloved monk character.

[BigErkyKid]

This is a typical case of mind your own business.

[Oliphant]

I feel bad for all the devs working with no job security and of course the folks laid off already. I like this game and I'm willing to spend significant money to enjoy and support it but you could give corporate america all the money in the world and it would generate not one scintilla of loyalty, that's the real bottom line and problem. Terrible news...

Regarding our role in this, I see lots of posts where folks argue endlessly with other folks that they're not being positive enough but I don't see as many posts of the folks just being positive, generating positive content in the first place. Not saying we're all intentionally mucking it up but I think we share blame for putting a negative spin on how we really feel about the game. By that I mean, I think we generally love this game but discussion often comes off like everything sucks vs it doesn't suck THAT bad. What do we expect folks in the business wing to think?

[DakFrost]

Sorry I don't believe everything anyone with a computer posts on the internet. Especially a site known for misinformation. A site that refuses to list any sources as well ;)

The fanboi is strong in you.

Denying the obvious takes a special effort.

[Hendrik]

Firing a bunch of people whenever a product is "done" is business as usual in a fairly scummy business. Some people, though, seem to be saying this is normal and nothing to worry about. If you think all is honky dory here in Turbineland you may in fact have your head up your backside--because you don't seem to be paying attention. For all I know DDO may limp along for another ten years but make no mistake that it's in the process of dying.

Get a basic understand of how contract development works then come back to the discussion.

[ToastyFred]

I wonder how the DDO Brand Manager made out? Does Turbine still have one or is Cordo going to be doing that too?

[Indianwiz]

I would love that producer vvayne chick come tell us that DDO is done and dusted. Just plain accept game is closer to maintenance mode (probably by 2016). Why play hide and seek when you know it is all over.

I hate producers/top management who do not have balls.

[waryJerry]

To Hendrik: you people with your frigging worthless business degrees are the problem here: don't tell me what kind of education to get.

[JOTMON]

Sorry I don't believe everything anyone with a computer posts on the internet. Especially a site known for misinformation. A site that refuses to list any sources as well ;)

What are you saying?
Everything on the internet is absolutely true otherwise it wouldn't be on the internet.

[Thayion516]

To Hendrik: you people with your frigging worthless business degrees are the problem here: don't tell me what kind of education to get.

that made me LOL!

[HAL]

Firing a bunch of people whenever a product is "done" is business as usual in a fairly scummy business. Some people, though, seem to be saying this is normal and nothing to worry about. If you think all is honky dory here in Turbineland you may in fact have your head up your backside--because you don't seem to be paying attention. For all I know DDO may limp along for another ten years but make no mistake that it's in the process of dying.

Every MMO that was ever made was "in the process of dying" the day it was released. Just like your new car starts devaluing the day you buy it. The question is how long it will take to die. DDO is in a very individual niche so I'm not looking for it to shut down any time soon.

[Bingobong]

This is what is interesting to me. So its like 10 peeps running DDO? No wonder they are slow as snails.

I don't know how many are working on DDO right now, but Turbine is (or maybe I should say was) a pretty big company. They've had 3 rounds of layoffs over the past 2 years, with the first round happening almost exactly 2 years ago (Oct 2012). At that time it was reported they had over 400 employees. That's fairly big, over twice the size of Cryptic. The estimates I've seen for each round of layoffs are around 50-80, so that would put them at around 200 now (just a guess, could be way off).

I don't think its a matter of if they have enough people/resources; it's a matter of whether they're willing to put their resources into DDO. They seem to always be putting their resources elsewhere instead of investing in their existing games to make it better. I think this is why Blizzard does so well with WoW, they're willing to invest in it and it shows. With Turbine, its always something else.

Recent new game : http://www.mmorpg.com/newsroom.cfm/read/27150/General-Turbine-Announces-Infinite-Crisis.html

[tralfaz81]

Get a basic understand of how contract development works then come back to the discussion.

This.

[G_Lich]

Get a basic understand of how contract development works then come back to the discussion.

I guess I understand the theme of this, but contract development is not generally considered a layoff, it's the end of predetermined contracts. Layoffs generally mean that employees were exempt from hourly pay on a for-hire basis and their full time positions were eliminated entirely.

Sucks in general though.

God speed on your next venture if any curious DDO crew got the sharp end of the stick.

[waryJerry]

I don't even know what "contract development" is supposed to mean. Is that some euphemism for temporary employment, a euphemism which obscures what it is--just another scummy business practice that some idiot is going to tell you not to talk about unless you also went to business school?

[tralfaz81]

I don't even know what "contract development" is supposed to mean. Is that some euphemism for temporary employment, a euphemism which obscures what it is--just another scummy business practice that some idiot is going to tell you not to talk about unless you also went to business school?

If you're a coder, its a way of making 2 to 3 times what a salaried worker makes - but you lose out on job security and benefits. If you have a large enough project, you bump up your staff with contract developers, nothing scummy about it. It's only scummy if you misrepresent your intentions, allow people to take the job thinking there's security when the company knows its only a temp job.

[Deadlock]

I don't even know what "contract development" is supposed to mean. Is that some euphemism for temporary employment, a euphemism which obscures what it is--just another scummy business practice that some idiot is going to tell you not to talk about unless you also went to business school?

Having read every post you've made in this thread, it's refreshing to meet someone with such an awesome degree of ignorance about how business works and isn't afraid to let everyone know. Good for you.

Turbine isn't a 3 man band working out of a parent's basement. They will have multiple titles in development at any point in time. Some will see the light of day, some will get pulled. Development teams will be pulled together for the creation of major projects like Infinite Crisis and these teams will be downsized when they have served their purpose.

As to your disparaging comments about DDO, if you don't like it then nobody is forcing you to play.

[G_Lich]

http://kotaku.com/why-game-developers-keep-getting-laid-off-1583192249

Whether it makes good business sense in the quarterly reports or not matters **** if it's not sustainable, layoffs are getting more common and more frequent in gaming. Big company layoffs = indie boom. Pretty soon we'll see 5 indie games for $0.99 Apps, and Turbines free-to-pay game won't get traction because hey! 5 for 1! Little guys have delivery channels to replace the big man. We are seeing the results of this in reverse. The whale companies have to compete with significantly lower cost operations, so they cut heads... and those heads spawn mini projects all over the place that are easy to produce and distribute to a big casual market. If it is not a fair work for fair pay situation (pay also including security) developers will go elsewhere, quality suffers because instead of hiring out of the deep pool of talent they're hiring out of the massive lake of mediocrity that will do the work for less pay/security poorly.

Hopefully that hydra eats the layoff cycle process so the big studios can grow some balls and stick to big budget projects so we can have security.

Example: I have a degree and a decent portfolio in design, I have all the technical qualifications for an entry level position in 3D art asset production. I have not applied to more than 3 studios because I have seen layoff after layoff at all of these studios. I would like to think that I have a significant talent to contribute to an awesome product... but I have purposefully stayed in Insurance because it's a fair job with a good paycheck, it's the safe option and it's the right choice for my family. I would much rather be doing what I love and not merely what I can tolerate but I'm not about to jump ship until I can see the waters are calm. Until then, I'm just doing freelance stuff in my free time for smaller indie projects. Funny how that works.

[DarthCaedus]

I don't know how many are working on DDO right now, but Turbine is (or maybe I should say was) a pretty big company. They've had 3 rounds of layoffs over the past 2 years, with the first round happening almost exactly 2 years ago (Oct 2012). At that time it was reported they had over 400 employees. That's fairly big, over twice the size of Cryptic. The estimates I've seen for each round of layoffs are around 50-80, so that would put them at around 200 now (just a guess, could be way off).

I don't think its a matter of if they have enough people/resources; it's a matter of whether they're willing to put their resources into DDO. They seem to always be putting their resources elsewhere instead of investing in their existing games to make it better. I think this is why Blizzard does so well with WoW, they're willing to invest in it and it shows. With Turbine, its always something else.

Recent new game : http://www.mmorpg.com/newsroom.cfm/read/27150/General-Turbine-Announces-Infinite-Crisis.html

It seems to me that DDO and LOTRO are cash cows now which basically means they've given up on growth and are focused only on maximizing net profit to fund other games with more potential. This doesn't mean the game will end any time soon, but it will once the net profits are close to approaching 0. They will shut down when/if they can't make a reasonable profit. DDO is at risk because it relies on a licensing agreement with a third-party and that cost won't necessarily get smaller for a game that shrinks because it's unofficially in maintenance mode. You can only squeeze margin out of ddo by cutting staff a few times.

So things like the harper tree make perfect sense to me. That is likely cheaper to develop than a pack and yet is priced about the same.

I don't think it's bad - it's just reality. At some point we will see a post like "Unfortunately we were unable to agree on a license extension with Wizards of the Coast so we are forced to shut down DDO as of xx/xx/xxxx" which will mean they weren't able to negotiate a smaller license fee to keep the game profitable and they aren't willing to pay the same fee. Hopefully that will be several years from now.

[dunklezhan]

Big company layoffs = indie boom.

I really truly hope this is the case both for us as players and most especially for the people who are losing their jobs.

But it sounds awfully close to 'trickle down economics' to me.

[waryJerry]

I'm old enough to have a lot of regrets but not majoring in business or being a cheerleader for a scumbag economy isn't one of them. Call me ignorant if it makes you feel better but most of my criticisms in these Turbine layoffs threads haven't been for the game or even for Turbine but for the parasitical and, yes I say it again, scummy economic system which says it's perfectly okay to thrive on the labor of temporary workers and then lay them off because as temps they deserve to be the ones getting screwed. If you're a cheerleader for that system, you're a scumbag too, thank you very much. I'd rather be ignorant than a scumbag cheerleader.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I'm old enough to have a lot of regrets but not majoring in business or being a cheerleader for a scumbag economy isn't one of them. Call me ignorant if it makes you feel better but most of my criticisms in these Turbine layoffs threads haven't been for the game or even for Turbine but for the parasitical and, yes I say it again, scummy economic system which says it's perfectly okay to thrive on the labor of temporary workers and then lay them off because as temps they deserve to be the ones getting screwed. If you're a cheerleader for that system, you're a scumbag too, thank you very much. I'd rather be ignorant than a scumbag cheerleader.

i dig the corporate hate, but if its just because you dislike short term jobs...i think there are better aspects of this issue to rage at. unless youre a disgruntled temporary worker. in which case, i have become bored of your posts.

[Thayion516]

I'm old enough to have a lot of regrets but not majoring in business or being a cheerleader for a scumbag economy isn't one of them. Call me ignorant if it makes you feel better but most of my criticisms in these Turbine layoffs threads haven't been for the game or even for Turbine but for the parasitical and, yes I say it again, scummy economic system which says it's perfectly okay to thrive on the labor of temporary workers and then lay them off because as temps they deserve to be the ones getting screwed. If you're a cheerleader for that system, you're a scumbag too, thank you very much. I'd rather be ignorant than a scumbag cheerleader.


LoL.. Amazing! I don't even know where to began to unpack that!

[DarthCaedus]

i dig the corporate hate, but if its just because you dislike short term jobs...i think there are better aspects of this issue to rage at. unless youre a disgruntled temporary worker. in which case, i have become bored of your posts.

Employees are not considered temporary workers. These were layoffs. Companies don't announce when they release temporary labor.

Turbine is shifting their labor pool to work on mobile games. If the previous workers don't have the right skill set the position is eliminated and the employee is let go.

It really isn't a harsh action by Turbine - it's necessary. If they fail to adapt to changing trends they put all of their employees at risk which impacts more people negatively.

Let's face it, PC gamers are a declining market and that will not change. Turbine is making the right decision even if we are negatively impacted.

[cdbd3rd]

...

Let's face it, PC gamers are a declining market and that will not change. ....

This gives us a sad - cuz we see the truth behind the words. When it started becoming socially acceptable to sit in a social setting and stare at your phone/tablet/ipod instead of interacting with the people one is sitting with... Yeah. What was once considered the height of rudeness is now the norm. :(

*rant truncated due to lack of topic worthiness*

[Chai]

I guess I understand the theme of this, but contract development is not generally considered a layoff, it's the end of predetermined contracts. Layoffs generally mean that employees were exempt from hourly pay on a for-hire basis and their full time positions were eliminated entirely.

Sucks in general though.

God speed on your next venture if any curious DDO crew got the sharp end of the stick.

This.

[HAL]

I don't know how many are working on DDO right now, but Turbine is (or maybe I should say was) a pretty big company. They've had 3 rounds of layoffs over the past 2 years, with the first round happening almost exactly 2 years ago (Oct 2012). At that time it was reported they had over 400 employees. That's fairly big, over twice the size of Cryptic. The estimates I've seen for each round of layoffs are around 50-80, so that would put them at around 200 now (just a guess, could be way off).

Assuming they haven't hired anyone in the last 2 years. They may well have hired mobile developers if that is, in fact, where they are turning. Or other specialized people for Infinite Crisis.


I don't think its a matter of if they have enough people/resources; it's a matter of whether they're willing to put their resources into DDO. They seem to always be putting their resources elsewhere instead of investing in their existing games to make it better. I think this is why Blizzard does so well with WoW, they're willing to invest in it and it shows. With Turbine, its always something else.

Recent new game : http://www.mmorpg.com/newsroom.cfm/read/27150/General-Turbine-Announces-Infinite-Crisis.html

I know, Turbine just hasn't added ANY new content to DDO in the last 2 years... O.o

I mean, only 8 updates...

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Firing a bunch of people whenever a product is "done" is business as usual in a fairly scummy business. Some people, though, seem to be saying this is normal and nothing to worry about. If you think all is honky dory here in Turbineland you may in fact have your head up your backside--because you don't seem to be paying attention. For all I know DDO may limp along for another ten years but make no mistake that it's in the process of dying.



Every single living human is currently in the process of dying. We may limp along for another 10, 20, 40, 80 years, but we're still in the process of dying.

[Angelic-council]

Every single living human is currently in the process of dying. We may limp along for another 10, 20, 40, 80 years, but we're still in the process of dying.

Yes, and in everything there is a reason.

[Bingobong]

Assuming they haven't hired anyone in the last 2 years. They may well have hired mobile developers if that is, in fact, where they are turning. Or other specialized people for Infinite Crisis.


I was pointing out that Turbine is a fairly large company. Including new hires would only reinforce my point.



I know, Turbine just hasn't added ANY new content to DDO in the last 2 years... O.o

I mean, only 8 updates...

The point is not that DDO doesn't add ANY content, since obviously they do. I was responding to someone commenting on them being as slow as snails. My point is that if they focused their resources on their existing games instead of new projects like Infintie Crisis and now mobile apps, they wouldn't be so slow.

The problem is not that Turbine lack employees/resources, its just that they choose not to focus their resources on DOO.

To put some prespective on things, ArenaNet has 300 employees and here is their content rollout :
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/

I don't expect weekly updates like GW2 from Turbine, but even split between LOTRO and DDO, they could prob do monthly or bi-monthly updates. It's their company and they can do whatever they please. but they do appear to have the resources if they wanted to.

[Grosbeak07]

I was pointing out that Turbine is a fairly large company. Including new hires would only reinforce my point.



The point is not that DDO doesn't add ANY content, since obviously they do. I was responding to someone commenting on them being as slow as snails. My point is that if they focused their resources on their existing games instead of new projects like Infintie Crisis and now mobile apps, they wouldn't be so slow.

The problem is not that Turbine lack employees/resources, its just that they choose not to focus their resources on DOO.

To put some prespective on things, ArenaNet has 300 employees and here is their content rollout :
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/

I don't expect weekly updates like GW2 from Turbine, but even split between LOTRO and DDO, they could prob do monthly or bi-monthly updates. It's their company and they can do whatever they please. but they do appear to have the resources if they wanted to.

Arena net may have many more employees, but they don't put out a lot of content. Most of it is pretty small and boring cosmetics. People complain about the same things over there.

Market is changing again. MMO's which 5-10 years ago were all the rage is now a saturated market. Turbine/WB was late with the Infinite Crisis MOBA and it failed. Lotro has been in steady decline for the last few years, which is why they moved some of their better people (Rowan, Maj Mal) over there to do some CPR. DDO its hard to believe is likely the healthiest of all Turbine games, but that's like being the least sick person in a hospital.

Contract employment stinks. I won't do it personally, but I don't begrudge anyone who does. However companies need to learn that mercenaries don't always care about a product, they are only hired to do a job and that's it. Perhaps if these companies invested in people, the ability of these workers to care will show more and the products are just a little bit better. When people take pride in their work it shows.

[Bingobong]

Arena net may have many more employees, but they don't put out a lot of content.

You should look at the link I provided listing the weekly content updates (episodes) : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/

If only DDO don't put out a lot of content like GW2, lol.

As for the many more employees comment, I was not trying to say ArenaNet had more. In fact, 2 years ago Turbine had more (over 400 employees) although it's unsure what their current employee count is now after 3 rounds of layoffs,

As for the rest of your post, it didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about, so I won't comment on it.

[Qhualor]

its not the size that maters, its how you use what you have.

or that's what some are told.

[Bingobong]

its not the size that maters, its how you use what you have.

or that's what some are told.

In a sense its also what I'm saying. :)

[Saekee]

Ironic that the latest release was named Infinite Crisis

[HAL]

I was pointing out that Turbine is a fairly large company. Including new hires would only reinforce my point.



The point is not that DDO doesn't add ANY content, since obviously they do. I was responding to someone commenting on them being as slow as snails. My point is that if they focused their resources on their existing games instead of new projects like Infintie Crisis and now mobile apps, they wouldn't be so slow.

The problem is not that Turbine lack employees/resources, its just that they choose not to focus their resources on DOO.

To put some prespective on things, ArenaNet has 300 employees and here is their content rollout :
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/

I don't expect weekly updates like GW2 from Turbine, but even split between LOTRO and DDO, they could prob do monthly or bi-monthly updates. It's their company and they can do whatever they please. but they do appear to have the resources if they wanted to.

GW2 is a relatively new game. Thus it is only reasonable that Anet focuses their resources on that game vs GW.

DDO and LotRO are both very old games, therefore it is not reasonable to expect that Turbine will focus their resources on those games vs. newer properties.

[Bingobong]

GW2 is a relatively new game. Thus it is only reasonable that Anet focuses their resources on that game vs GW.

DDO and LotRO are both very old games, therefore it is not reasonable to expect that Turbine will focus their resources on those games vs. newer properties.

Gee I guess Blizzard can't focus on WoW either cause it's so old. Your line of logic is what I think got Turbine into the current situation of layoffs after layoffs. If you believe in your game, then you would invest in it. Like I said, they had plenty of resources and COULD have focused their resources into making their existing games better, but they chose not to.

I guess I believed in DDO more than you or Turbine.

[Tinari]

I'm old enough to have a lot of regrets but not majoring in business or being a cheerleader for a scumbag economy isn't one of them. Call me ignorant if it makes you feel better but most of my criticisms in these Turbine layoffs threads haven't been for the game or even for Turbine but for the parasitical and, yes I say it again, scummy economic system which says it's perfectly okay to thrive on the labor of temporary workers and then lay them off because as temps they deserve to be the ones getting screwed. If you're a cheerleader for that system, you're a scumbag too, thank you very much. I'd rather be ignorant than a scumbag cheerleader.

Dunno about you, but I am content making about 3-4x what my full-time coworkers make, knowing my job will be terminated in 18 months. Don't hate **** if you haven't done it. Once my contract expires I can sit around scratching my ass for a year on my savings or contract out to another company making more than all their salaried chaps. What's wrong with me having this choice?

[Tinari]

Gee I guess Blizzard can't focus on WoW either cause it's so old. Your line of logic is what I think got Turbine into the current situation of layoffs after layoffs. If you believe in your game, then you would invest in it. Like I said, they had plenty of resources and COULD have focused their resources into making their existing games better, but they chose not to.

I guess I believed in DDO more than you or Turbine.

If your comparing it to WoW then yes, you did ignorantly believe in it more than most. There has been no MMO in current human history to even reach one THIRD of WoW's peak at their own peak. WoW is down closer to half their peak and still millions of subscribers better off than second place ever reached.

Stop comparing to WoW. It dilutes any points you may have.

[Bingobong]

If your comparing it to WoW then yes, you did ignorantly believe in it more than most. There has been no MMO in current human history to even reach one THIRD of WoW's peak at their own peak. WoW is down closer to half their peak and still millions of subscribers better off than second place ever reached.

Stop comparing to WoW. It dilutes any points you may have.

No, you thought I was comparing DDO to WoW. I was not. I used WoW only as an example of companies focusing resources in an old game. Stop pretending this is about comparing DDO to WoW. It dilutes any points you may have.

I believed in DDO in the sense that I think it was a game worth focusing their resources on.

[Hendrik]

Ironic that the latest release was named Infinite Crisis

I was invited to test it, being a Turbine fan, and gave it a fair shake.

Not big into MOABs, but gave it the benefit of the doubt being a superhero nerd.

After a week saw what the game devolved into and left immediately.

Felt bad for the game as one of my favorite DDO DEVs was working on it but just not my type of game nor the playstyle I witnessed as the norm.

[Xianio]

No, you thought I was comparing DDO to WoW. I was not. I used WoW only as an example of companies focusing resources in an old game. Stop pretending this is about comparing DDO to WoW. It dilutes any points you may have.

I believed in DDO in the sense that I think it was a game worth focusing their resources on.

You're point is reliant upon WoW being a meaningful comparison. It's totally meaningless to say "look at WoW" when referencing anything about DDO. It's like trying to apply formula one driving tips/strategies to a grocery store trip.

If you want to use an 'old' game as an example of a company that still believes in its game then you need to look for something other than WoW. WoW makes its own rules that only it can play by. DDO can't, and shouldn't compare itself to WoW, at all -- even as an example.

[Knobull]

... I can sit around scratching my ass for a year ...

If it's that itchy, you might want to see a doctor, or somethin...

[Thayion516]

You're point is reliant upon WoW being a meaningful comparison. It's totally meaningless to say "look at WoW" when referencing anything about DDO. It's like trying to apply formula one driving tips/strategies to a grocery store trip.

If you want to use an 'old' game as an example of a company that still believes in its game then you need to look for something other than WoW. WoW makes its own rules that only it can play by. DDO can't, and shouldn't compare itself to WoW, at all -- even as an example.

Benchmarking industry leaders is a valid and very accepted business practice in every industry world wide. Also, process/operational theory comparisons are likewise norms within business comparisons.

The different ways businesses approach all aspects of its industry is what leads to Forbes 500 companies and ones that goes bankrupt. If you view any business in a vacuum, it is doomed to failure.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Firing a bunch of people whenever a product is "done" is business as usual in a fairly scummy business. Some people, though, seem to be saying this is normal and nothing to worry about. If you think all is honky dory here in Turbineland you may in fact have your head up your backside--because you don't seem to be paying attention. For all I know DDO may limp along for another ten years but make no mistake that it's in the process of dying.


I'm old enough to have a lot of regrets but not majoring in business or being a cheerleader for a scumbag economy isn't one of them. Call me ignorant if it makes you feel better but most of my criticisms in these Turbine layoffs threads haven't been for the game or even for Turbine but for the parasitical and, yes I say it again, scummy economic system which says it's perfectly okay to thrive on the labor of temporary workers and then lay them off because as temps they deserve to be the ones getting screwed. If you're a cheerleader for that system, you're a scumbag too, thank you very much. I'd rather be ignorant than a scumbag cheerleader.

Let's say you want your house painted, but for whatever reason decide to get a guy in rather than do it yourself. You hire him, he does 2 days work, then you pay him and lay him off because the job is done.

Is that parasitical, scumbag behavior?
Or is that just normal?

[DarthCaedus]

Let's say you want your house painted, but for whatever reason decide to get a guy in rather than do it yourself. You hire him, he does 2 days work, then you pay him and lay him off because the job is done.

Is that parasitical, scumbag behavior?
Or is that just normal?

Why do people insist on referring to employee layoffs as letting go some temporary workers?

Warner Brothers wouldn't make any announcements if this was done - expected or unexpected. They made the announcement because they laid off employees and are shifting strategy.

I don't agree there is anything wrong with employee layoffs - it's just part of the business cycle in a free economy.

[Bingobong]

You're point is reliant upon WoW being a meaningful comparison. It's totally meaningless to say "look at WoW" when referencing anything about DDO. It's like trying to apply formula one driving tips/strategies to a grocery store trip.

If you want to use an 'old' game as an example of a company that still believes in its game then you need to look for something other than WoW. WoW makes its own rules that only it can play by. DDO can't, and shouldn't compare itself to WoW, at all -- even as an example.

No. I was referring to WoW only as an example of another company that focused their resource on an older game. If Blizzard had not focused their resources on WoW, it would not be the success story it is today. You want to have a success story, you need to focus your resources on it. This is true with any business.

Like I said, I believe DDO is a game worthy of focusing their resources on.

[EllisDee37]

DarthCaedus has a point. If this really is just not renewing temporary contracts, why have we heard about it? That type of thing wouldn't be noteworthy at all, would it?

[MightyMe]

If your comparing it to WoW then yes, you did ignorantly believe in it more than most.

If you thought he was comparing it to WoW then yes, you did ignorantly misinterpret that.

[MightyMe]

DarthCaedus has a point. If this really is just not renewing temporary contracts, why have we heard about it? That type of thing wouldn't be noteworthy at all, would it?

Layoffs generally refer to regular employees and not contract workers.

[Bridge_Dweller]

DDO and LotRO are both very old games, therefore it is not reasonable to expect that Turbine will focus their resources on those games vs. newer properties.

Like they have anything else to focus on besides a pre-failed MOBA?

[Cathimon]

Do you see any ads or something? You can't expect a game to last forever without publicity. I still remember the Brocolli vs beholder add when the game became F2P. There was some for the *expensions* but generally speaking DDO is not as proeminent as it was.

[Hendrik]

Layoffs generally refer to regular employees and not contract workers.

Using the term 'layoff' and stating it as such grants the employee certain benefits.

[MightyMe]

Using the term 'layoff' and stating it as such grants the employee certain benefits.

Contractors generally do not get regular employee benefits. Their compensation is based solely on whatever is in the contract they signed. In my company, contract workers are never included in layoff numbers.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Contractors generally do not get regular employee benefits. Their compensation is based solely on whatever is in the contract they signed. In my company, contract workers are never included in layoff numbers.

What did they call it then, a furlough? a downsizing? The folks at the unemployment office don't distinguish between them.

[Thayion516]

What did they call it then, a furlough? a downsizing? The folks at the unemployment office don't distinguish between them.

How about "End of a contract"? ... Which it is. you seem to think that "Employed" and "Contracted" is the same thing.. Its Not.

[MightyMe]

What did they call it then, a furlough? a downsizing? The folks at the unemployment office don't distinguish between them.

I've never been unemployed so I can't answer that. But layoffs generally refer to regular employees, not contractors.

[Xianio]

Benchmarking industry leaders is a valid and very accepted business practice in every industry world wide. Also, process/operational theory comparisons are likewise norms within business comparisons.

The different ways businesses approach all aspects of its industry is what leads to Forbes 500 companies and ones that goes bankrupt. If you view any business in a vacuum, it is doomed to failure.

Of course, but 'industry leaders' is a misleading term in this case. When identifying the leaders you're attempting to benchmark you need to keep scope in mind. Comparing processes/operations of a 10 million subscriber game to a 100,000 subscriber game can do more harm than good. For example, Amazon uses robots to retrieve orders for packaging. They do this because it's highly efficient and reduces labour costs. If a small business that does less than a 10th of their sales/deliveries tried to adopted a similar practice the overhead and expertise required to get, code and maintain said robots would never result in reduced costs, rather significantly increased ones.

All I'm really saying is that comparing a niche game to an non-niche game with over 10x the audience may not produce the results you expect. Instead, it would be better to evaluate the proposed strategy (invest resources in an aged game) to other niche games. If they managed to do so successfully then you have a case.

Otherwise you're lumping every MMO in together, which I believe is an error.

[MightyMe]

Of course, but 'industry leaders' is a misleading term in this case. When identifying the leaders you're attempting to benchmark you need to keep scope in mind. Comparing processes/operations of a 10 million subscriber game to a 100,000 subscriber game can do more harm than good. For example, Amazon uses robots to retrieve orders for packaging. They do this because it's highly efficient and reduces labour costs. If a small business that does less than a 10th of their sales/deliveries tried to adopted a similar practice the overhead and expertise required to get, code and maintain said robots would never result in reduced costs, rather significantly increased ones.

All I'm really saying is that comparing a niche game to an non-niche game with over 10x the audience may not produce the results you expect. Instead, it would be better to evaluate the proposed strategy (invest resources in an aged game) to other niche games. If they managed to do so successfully then you have a case.

Otherwise you're lumping every MMO in together, which I believe is an error.

He wasn't trying to compare DDO to WoW and even if you thought he did, he made it clear he wasn't trying to do that. At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Erdrique]

This is very disappointing to hear. I hope these layoffs don't have an impact on DDO. Probably way to early to tell though.

[Chai]

Hmmm. The one listing things about mobile are sites that never disclose any sources whatsoever. Kind of not reliable. I don't doubt the lay offs but I do doubt that Turbine is going to focus on mobile.

Please.

You ask for sources, then ask for sources of sources. dismissal =/= refutation.

Its what they are claiming, on multiple sites now - that they are realigning the company to focus on the current market, and the current market is mobile apps and games.

[Angelic-council]

Contractors generally do not get regular employee benefits. Their compensation is based solely on whatever is in the contract they signed. In my company, contract workers are never included in layoff numbers.

Yeah, you are right, it also depends on your position. Well, this layoff happened twice for turbine. It's always painful to see good people leaving the company. I hope it doesn't affect DDO.. will see.

[moomooprincess]

Also discussed here on October 15, 2014.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450171-Puzzled

[Hendrik]

Contractors generally do not get regular employee benefits. Their compensation is based solely on whatever is in the contract they signed. In my company, contract workers are never included in layoff numbers.

By labeling them as layoff, they are entitled to end of work benefits, such as unemployment and insurance - that is what I was talking about, maybe I was not clear.

You might not have counted them as layoffs by your company, but they fall into that bracket. Looks good for your earnings reports and shareholders, if you have them, but for the people it matters to, it's a layoff.

Hope this makes it a bit more clear.

[Rykka]

This is a very common thing in the industry. Remember they just got Infinite Crisis up recently. Usually they will hire more for the start of a game and once it is stable lay off.

What's Infinite Crisis? Some new managerial process system?

[PermaBanned]

What's Infinite Crisis? Some new managerial process system?

I thought it was the nickname for their exploit/bug fixing department ;)

[Drus-the-Axe]

Thread went this long without? What are the forum trolls coming to?

[Dorian]

I hope we get some kind of official response from the producer on how this will affect DDO.

Do we even have a producer now?

[bsquishwizzy]

Guys, first and foremost, the term “layoff” has traditionally meant that an employer is shedding a portion of its workforce for the current term, with the potential for bringing them back in the future. That’s how the term started. Now, the definition has changed somewhat. However, being a contract employee does not mean that when you are laid off you are afforded certain benefits because of the term being used to describe how you are being offloaded.

Secondly, contractors generally don’t have contracts as most people understand them. Often times, a company will take on software people “on contract” by getting them from a contract house. The contract house is the one who has the agreement with the employee, and they often pay them hourly. When the employer (not the contract house) decides the employee is no longer needed, it is the job of the contract house to determine whether they need to be shifted to a new company or placed somewhere else in the same organization. But when the “employer” decides the position is no longer needed, that job ends in the blink of an eye.

A lot of large companies have their grunt work done via contract houses. That’s just the way it is done nowadays. This is because they’ve elevated full-time employment to a different level, and afford benefits to these employees. It is more of a qu8asi-European model where when you are brought on, you’re basically there for “life”…or until they are in such bad shape they they’ve also got to get rid of you. In these instances, there is generally a severance package that you’d receive, which a contractor would rarely ever see.

The generally consider contractors as “employees.” Thus when they are let go, it is considered a layoff. In times of plenty, they would generally just keep paying to keep a contractor on. But we’re not living in times of plenty these days…

I personally dislike all of this, which is one of the reasons why I never work contract unless I absolutely have to. Smaller companies tend to hire less, and retain talent longer. They also tend to pay better too. Honestly, I don’t need a free massage at my desk. I do, however, need to feed my family and pay my mortgage.

There are people who like contract. It does pay well for many (nor so much for guys like me), and you definitely get a lot of variety. Likewise, if you are good, you’ll always have work. Then again, this is the case in most types of employment.

Now, I’m not 100% sure what Turbine does internally, but my bet is that they tend to hire a lot of contractors, and farm-out the work. So when the word “layoff” rolls around, very well may mean that they are getting rid of a bunch of contractors after the end of a large development project.

So, I wouldn’t read too much into the term “layoff.”

[DarthCaedus]

I hope we get some kind of official response from the producer on how this will affect DDO.

Do we even have a producer now?

They likely aren't allowed to discuss any specifics - at best they can confirm the report is true and indicate how DDO will be impacted. Typically they will state DDO will not be impacted.

Of course if they have nothing good to say it's certainly better to say nothing. That might be advisable in this case since it's clear DDO and LOTRO are no longer strategic. They are unofficially in maintenance mode.

[Cordovan]

We can confirm that a number of people were laid off across Turbine last week. We are not able to provide further detail, sorry. We can say that our plans for DDO remain unchanged.

[BigErkyKid]

They likely aren't allowed to discuss any specifics - at best they can confirm the report is true and indicate how DDO will be impacted. Typically they will state DDO will not be impacted.

Of course if they have nothing good to say it's certainly better to say nothing. That might be advisable in this case since it's clear DDO and LOTRO are no longer strategic. They are unofficially in maintenance mode.

You guessed right ;)

I also feel the same about maintenance. But after years of effort in DDO (and the failed expansions) one cannot blame turbine.

Despite holding the DnD franchise they seem unable to create a game that appeals to a large audience.

In that sense, no wonder they keep moving talent to LOTRO. It is far more successful.

Pity for us who like DnD.

[Braegan]

We can confirm that a number of people were laid off across Turbine last week. We are not able to provide further detail, sorry. We can say that our plans for DDO remain unchanged.

That sucks for folks laid off. Hope they bounce back and find something soon.

Glad to hear DDO isn't going to change its plans.

[Oliphant]

Pity for us who like DnD.

Folks don't seem to like DnD on DDO much, per se. They like only Greyhawk, or only Eberron, or only the Realms, but definitely not e3.5, etc...

[UurlockYgmeov]

We can confirm that a number of people were laid off across Turbine last week. We are not able to provide further detail, sorry. We can say that our plans for DDO remain unchanged.

Thank you Cordovan for the update. I can say that my plans to play DDO remain unchanged. :D

[waryJerry]

Is there still going to be a final update this year? What are your plans about the promised then delayed level cap of 30? Some players have suggested that ought to be scrapped and if there is indeed to be very little new content isn't that a good idea?

[Qhualor]

We can confirm that a number of people were laid off across Turbine last week. We are not able to provide further detail, sorry. We can say that our plans for DDO remain unchanged.

;(

AFAIK, nothing is planned post 2015.

[patang01]

You guessed right ;)

I also feel the same about maintenance. But after years of effort in DDO (and the failed expansions) one cannot blame turbine.

Despite holding the DnD franchise they seem unable to create a game that appeals to a large audience.

In that sense, no wonder they keep moving talent to LOTRO. It is far more successful.

Pity for us who like DnD.

As a player of many MMOs and genres of games I can state with certainty that the only reason why people might not pivot to DDO is that it's not being promoted. Sure, it has a dated look and it's in need of a much better introduction to new players, but it is by far one of the better systems out there. By far. But in order for it to be viable they need to release a DDO2 with an updated engine and perhaps some form of PVP for people who like to clonk each others (more then what it has now - I personally don't care for it but it's a main draw for a portion of players).

That's of course the type of investment they're not willing to make. I guess everything is Arena games now.

[Cordovan]

Is there still going to be a final update this year? What are your plans about the promised then delayed level cap of 30? Some players have suggested that ought to be scrapped and if there is indeed to be very little new content isn't that a good idea?

Yes, the time frame for Update 24 remains unchanged. We are also working on another patch for Update 23, exact date TBA. We'll talk more about our plans for the level cap as we get closer to that happening.

[Tyrande]

As a player of many MMOs and genres of games I can state with certainty that the only reason why people might not pivot to DDO is that it's not being promoted. Sure, it has a dated look and it's in need of a much better introduction to new players, but it is by far one of the better systems out there. By far.

/agree


But in order for it to be viable they need to release a DDO2 with an updated engine and perhaps some form of PVP for people who like to clonk each others (more then what it has now - I personally don't care for it but it's a main draw for a portion of players).

[...]

Not for me. I dislike PvP and all forms of it. I played Guild Wars and Guild Wars II and dislike the PvP aspects of it even though it is more of a team competition or WvW there...
It sorts off segregated players with "the haves and have nots"; or whoever spent more time or more money into it...

Although I cannot disagree that a huge population of the MMO players out there want to do the "My crystal is bigger than your crystal" thing because they "want to show people their crystals".

Will DDO 2 be a good thing? Are people willing to give up their tons of DDO loot and characters and migrate to DDO 2? Will DDO 2 playable on iPad? You tell me...

[patang01]

/agree



Not for me. I dislike PvP and all forms of it. I played Guild Wars and Guild Wars II and dislike the PvP aspects of it even though it is more of a team competition or WvW there...
It sorts off segregated players with "the haves and have nots"; or whoever spent more time or more money into it...

Although I cannot disagree that a huge population of the MMO players out there want to do the "My crystal is bigger than your crystal" thing because they "want to show people their crystals".

Will DDO 2 be a good thing? Are people willing to give up their tons of DDO loot and characters and migrate to DDO 2? Will DDO 2 playable on iPad? You tell me...

A DDO2 could add a little bit more dimension to the current game even if the foundation is still the same quests. We know that the current engine has many limitations so I'm not just talking about better graphics. And I don't see why things cannot migrate over to DDO2. Support to Ipad or other pads? Why not. Sounds like a great idea, with some kind of interface that let you do inventory management and such on a smart phone. The best idea I could think for an ipad however would be a map or inventory screen to go with main game. I think it would be so cool to simultaneously have the extended map up on my ipad while playing the game. Or just have the inventory up while playing. Or heck, have the ability to check other mules and toons for stuff while remaining logged in into the main.

As for PvP, there are ways to make it less main game while expanding it. Like a dedicated PvP server or specific PvP questions. Like larger quests on larger maps where people are free to battle each others and/or the enemy without being forced to pick alliances or anything. Imagine if you like a larger map where up to 4 people can join in, start recruiting enemy critters and then fight against each other in a battle for king of the hill type play.

[Failedlegend]

They are unofficially in maintenance mode.

Where do you get that idea?

Turbine has been doing ALOT to update and revamp systems as well as introducing new ones...maintenance mode means they do just enough to keep the servers running.

So no their NOT in "maintenance mode" if anything their the most active they have ever been.

[ThomasHunter]

So no their NOT in "maintenance mode" if anything their the most active they have ever been.

This I like. No doubt this continues to be my favorite game and where I now spend not only the vast majority of my gaming time, but my gaming budget as well.:cool:

[DarthCaedus]

Where do you get that idea?

Turbine has been doing ALOT to update and revamp systems as well as introducing new ones...maintenance mode means they do just enough to keep the servers running.

So no their NOT in "maintenance mode" if anything their the most active they have ever been.

They have been cutting staff and growing revenue by adding things like otto's boxes, bypass timers, etc. to increase revenue/player rather than increasing # of players.

It's obvious they are focusing on maximizing earnings vs. player growth. I don't think it's a bad thing, but DDO is basically a cash cow to fund projects with more potential. They already accepted the future is not DDO and not MMOs and are focusing on mobile - which makes perfect sense for a WB sub that has so much intellectual property to leverage.

[Thrudh]

They have been cutting staff and growing revenue by adding things like otto's boxes, bypass timers, etc. to increase revenue/player rather than increasing # of players.

It's obvious they are focusing on maximizing earnings vs. player growth. I don't think it's a bad thing, but DDO is basically a cash cow to fund projects with more potential. They already accepted the future is not DDO and not MMOs and are focusing on mobile - which makes perfect sense for a WB sub that has so much intellectual property to leverage.

You are completely blind. The enhancement pass, bard changes, paladin changes, heavy armor changes, upcoming barb changes, SWF, none of those are store items. The devs have done a ton of stuff to make the core systems better, they are obviously NOT just focusing on maximizing earnings...

[DarthCaedus]

You are completely blind. The enhancement pass, bard changes, paladin changes, heavy armor changes, upcoming barb changes, SWF, none of those are store items. The devs have done a ton of stuff to make the core systems better, they are obviously NOT just focusing on maximizing earnings...

I suspect Turbine makes money from all these. Anything that encourages people to re-roll and re-level ultimately generates revenue.

The devs are doing the best they can with the resources they have - no question about it. Warner Brothers and Turbine management want them to do the best they can and make their current customers happy to keep the revenue coming in.

Where is Turbine's spending more- mobile gaming. Where is Turbine spending less - MMOs. How can anyone disagree with this and where Turbine's focus is?

This doesn't mean doom, but it does point to a strategic shift within Turbine that is likely the right way to go.

[Chai]

You are completely blind. The enhancement pass, bard changes, paladin changes, heavy armor changes, upcoming barb changes, SWF, none of those are store items. The devs have done a ton of stuff to make the core systems better, they are obviously NOT just focusing on maximizing earnings...

As my previous statement referred to, they are limited to changing things that do not affect store items, not by any brick wall style absolute barrier, but by their own users who bought character power over the years.

Making the game more attractive is the right way to attempt to maximize earnings. If my bards are more awesome Im more likely to play them more and buy things for those characters. If I wasn't playing one before and I see people having fun playing them, theres a much higher chance I will TR a character into one and relevel it, or roll one up brand new, which I may want to TR a few times for the right synergies and add tomes to etc.

This is called seeding the market. The money comes in from upgrades and accessories.

[Deadlock]

As my previous statement referred to, they are limited to changing things that do not affect store items, not by any brick wall style absolute barrier, but by their own users who bought character power over the years.

Making the game more attractive is the right way to attempt to maximize earnings. If my bards are more awesome Im more likely to play them more and buy things for those characters. If I wasn't playing one before and I see people having fun playing them, theres a much higher chance I will TR a character into one and relevel it, or roll one up brand new, which I may want to TR a few times for the right synergies and add tomes to etc.

This is called seeding the market. The money comes in from upgrades and accessories.

Just so I'm clear. The devs are doing things to make the game more fun and more interesting, addressing historical deficencies, giving people more reason to play, either by TRing their characters or rolling up new characters to see for themselves the effect of the changes. I think we're agreed on that.

I continue to play, I keep my VIP subscription running and because I'm playing, there's the possibility that I might spend more in the store on whatever - where if I wasn't playing there is zero chance of me spending money in store and a good possibility I'll cancel my VIP subscription.

Are we agreed this is a good thing for the game? I'm just so used to tuning out when I read some convoluted argument about pay to win being introduced as a tangent into threads that I suspect this could a refreshing change to agree on a simple proposition for a change.

[Chai]

Just so I'm clear. The devs are doing things to make the game more fun and more interesting, addressing historical deficencies, giving people more reason to play, either by TRing their characters or rolling up new characters to see for themselves the effect of the changes. I think we're agreed on that.

I continue to play, I keep my VIP subscription running and because I'm playing, there's the possibility that I might spend more in the store on whatever - where if I wasn't playing there is zero chance of me spending money in store and a good possibility I'll cancel my VIP subscription.

Are we agreed this is a good thing for the game? I'm just so used to tuning out when I read some convoluted argument about pay to win being introduced as a tangent into threads that I suspect this could a refreshing change to agree on a simple proposition for a change.

Yes, out of the two ways to monetize we have seen recently, the better of the two is where the game is the product, and everything else is accessorizing - which is what we are seeing a push for currently.

The largest incorrect argument repeated about p2w is the idea that Turbine has to monetize the game by selling every possible way to progress or advance, or the game dies. When this is the belief of the company, this leads game design down a path where the game is no longer the product, and is merely the environment the real product (store items, purchased character power etc) is used in.

In the past few months we have seen many examples which show the game can still be the product people pay for, and making the game more enjoyable is what keeps people playing, and therefore paying. Turbine learned they can put work into things which are "free" which make the game more enjoyable as a strategy for player retention. For instance, loot was made BTA for two updates now. Loss of ASAH sales didn't cause the game to implode. Resources were put into making paladins and bards more relevant, and therefore more fun to play. A lot of older characters got dusted off and played by folks who might be taking a break otherwise, having pillaged the new raid for everything they want already on their mains.

This type of content focus and game focus is more favorable for long term player retention. Having more players = each having to pay less on average to meet bottom line goals.

While I believe this affects financial stability, I do not believe it affects the layoff decision, which was a realignment decision.

[barecm]

If this game makes it to 10 years (which is quite possible), it would be 9.5 years more than most gave it at launch. So, anything new and improved at this point in the game's life is like playing with house money.

[DakFrost]

Where do you get that idea?

Turbine has been doing ALOT to update and revamp systems as well as introducing new ones...maintenance mode means they do just enough to keep the servers running.

So no their NOT in "maintenance mode" if anything their the most active they have ever been.

I don't consider recycling old material to be new. There hasn't been any new content added in awhile now. "Fixing" old classes and making old content Epic isn't being active, it's being lazy.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I don't consider recycling old material to be new. There hasn't been any new content added in awhile now. "Fixing" old classes and making old content Epic isn't being active, it's being lazy.


That's malarkey.

They are obviously fine tuning the game so they can launch the next big thing, which is level 30, final cap for DDO. Now whether you like those changes or not, is not my point.

I prefer new material as well, but epic-ifying content at this point just makes sense.

As long as they are doing any of these things... is a good sign. The fact they are sticking to their plans for a year out shows grit, determination, and an ability to ALWAYS stay creative regardless what the challenges are or how bad a deck of cards they've been granted by the bean counters above them... formally Atari and currently Warner Brothers.

[Chauncey1]

Thank you Cordovan for the update. I can say that my plans to play DDO remain unchanged. :D

The only way I would change my plans to play DDO is to play even more DDO, but that's just not possible, seeing as I like to actually sleep from time to time.

[ToastyFred]

Has anyone figured out which DDO devs have been tossed to the pavement yet?

[FranOhmsford]

Will DDO 2 be a good thing? Are people willing to give up their tons of DDO loot and characters and migrate to DDO 2? Will DDO 2 playable on iPad? You tell me...

Remember Asheron's Call 2?

Of course not!

DDO2 would be a massive white elephant unless we were able to port our COMPLETE characters over!

[tralfaz81]

Remember Asheron's Call 2?

Of course not!

DDO2 would be a massive white elephant unless we were able to port our COMPLETE characters over!

It'll be easier for some than others ;)

[Missing_Minds]

The problem is not that Turbine lack employees/resources, its just that they choose not to focus their resources on DOO.

To put some prespective on things, ArenaNet has 300 employees and here is their content rollout :
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/

I don't expect weekly updates like GW2 from Turbine, but even split between LOTRO and DDO, they could prob do monthly or bi-monthly updates. It's their company and they can do whatever they please. but they do appear to have the resources if they wanted to.
I may be a bit late to this one, but this post reeks of "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
I give you instead of propaganda, their history.
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/updates

If you actually go through you'll find that biweekly is actually just fixes for the most part and seldom content. (really wish Turbine would at least do monthly fixes.)

Given how you responded to people previously, I doubt you'll believe me, so how about someone else.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/more-same-guild-wars-2
"In an article our own David brought up there is a serious lack of content to keep a player really engrossed in the game. This year, since I had been playing the game almost exclusively since launch, I had been hoping that we would final have more content for veteran players. There needs to be something more than the Living World to draw along a player who has done everything. There needs to be more than the zerg-fest that is World versus World to keep a player engrossed between updates.

All players have had is the Living World to stay in the game and, as David said, it has come to the point that nobody really plays Guild Wars 2 as their primary game anymore due to that. What is worse is that ArenaNet doesn’t seem to be aware of that, or they just don’t’ care. In the first season of the Living World, while players were still learning the game and trying to build a Legendary Weapon, there were twenty different episodes. These didn’t include the holiday events or “break” events that were still designed and catered to the Living World ideal."


You may think the grass is greener, but really... it is equally as dried out, just a different variety.

[Angelic-council]

The only way I would change my plans to play DDO is to play even more DDO, but that's just not possible, seeing as I like to actually sleep from time to time.

Yeah, wish I could play more... but real life calling me. Im just one step ahead from buying a lambo. Once I reach my goal, none can stop me from playing more :D

[Chai]

I may be a bit late to this one, but this post reeks of "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
I give you instead of propaganda, their history.
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/updates

If you actually go through you'll find that biweekly is actually just fixes for the most part and seldom content. (really wish Turbine would at least do monthly fixes.)

Given how you responded to people previously, I doubt you'll believe me, so how about someone else.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/more-same-guild-wars-2
"In an article our own David brought up there is a serious lack of content to keep a player really engrossed in the game. This year, since I had been playing the game almost exclusively since launch, I had been hoping that we would final have more content for veteran players. There needs to be something more than the Living World to draw along a player who has done everything. There needs to be more than the zerg-fest that is World versus World to keep a player engrossed between updates.

All players have had is the Living World to stay in the game and, as David said, it has come to the point that nobody really plays Guild Wars 2 as their primary game anymore due to that. What is worse is that ArenaNet doesn’t seem to be aware of that, or they just don’t’ care. In the first season of the Living World, while players were still learning the game and trying to build a Legendary Weapon, there were twenty different episodes. These didn’t include the holiday events or “break” events that were still designed and catered to the Living World ideal."


You may think the grass is greener, but really... it is equally as dried out, just a different variety.

Whoever wrote that there is a serious lack of content to keep a player really engrossed in gw2 doesnt know their MMOs. He is speaking from the perspective of someone who has played the game since day one, and talking in jaded vet speak. The game is 3 years old and is already handedly defeating the content list of most games twice its age.

You also have a dev quote in there admitting they want more for their players and acknowledging they want to be doing better, when they have already demonstrated better than most everyone else a good recipe for player retention.

As for no one playing the game as their main game - they still have over a million players who log in regularly. Are the servers of their main games patching that often? Doubtful.

[Bingobong]

I may be a bit late to this one, but this post reeks of "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
I give you instead of propaganda, their history.
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/updates

If you actually go through you'll find that biweekly is actually just fixes for the most part and seldom content. (really wish Turbine would at least do monthly fixes.)


So are you saying all the episodes and special events listed here under season 1 and season 2 are all fake and propaganda?
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/

I rate this attempt at distortion of facts 1 out of 10.

[Missing_Minds]

Whoever wrote that there is a serious lack of content to keep a player really engrossed in gw2 doesnt know their MMOs. He is speaking from the perspective of someone who has played the game since day one, and talking in jaded vet speak. The game is 3 years old and is already handedly defeating the content list of most games twice its age.

You also have a dev quote in there admitting they want more for their players and acknowledging they want to be doing better, when they have already demonstrated better than most everyone else a good recipe for player retention.

As for no one playing the game as their main game - they still have over a million players who log in regularly. Are the servers of their main games patching that often? Doubtful.

1st, try two years.

2nd. I did all there was for PvE in 4-5 months. WvW? Meh, it is all about who has the larger zerg group. It doesn't change. Fractals? Lots of elitests but once you learn it same every time. My current time there, about a year. So yeah, a person who has been playign for 2 years IS bored out of their skull. Their new content (ala living story) gets blasted through in about 2 hours. 4 if you are a flower sniffer taking lots of bathroom breaks.

3nd. They have change the game recently such that it has been bleeding players at an accelerated rate compared to previous bleeding. The majority of the forums are calling the NPE (new player experience) their version of NGE. So your "recipe" is now turned sour saddly. The writing is on the wall that it is really going to turn more to a pay based game.

4. half of the "content" doesn't stick around. It was 'events' that new players won't able able to go back and do. They have added only two new areas in two years. Each of them smaller than the other zones in the game. All living story does is make use of pre existing maps and puts a set "instance" in it. not a whole lot of "new" content there. Now the LS 2 is sticking around, but if you haven't logged in while it was active you have to pay for it. So it isn't free for those folks. (I'm not saying that is good or bad, just how it is.)
edit: I had to come back and change this one as I forgot that Fractals didn't exist at launch and there is the 2nd edge of the mist wvw map now as well. However, Fractals are more for the hard core players.

And my opinion. Turbine with DDO released more new content in 2 years than Anet has with GW2. However, I think there was more content by far with GW2's release than Turbine had with DDO.

[Thayion516]

Yes.


And this thread is done IMO. They laid off peeps and are focusing on mobile. So what, it will not effect my runs on GH tonight!

[stoerm]

Let's face it, PC gamers are a declining market and that will not change.

A quick online search on the matter will prove you wrong.

[slarden]

A quick online search on the matter will prove you wrong.

lol

I can understand many of the disagreements in this thread, but it's amazingly hard to understand how anyone can deny the trend from PCs to mobile devices.

[Certon]

We can confirm that a number of people were laid off across Turbine last week. We are not able to provide further detail, sorry. We can say that our plans for DDO remain unchanged.

They can't SAY who's been laid off, but you can watch the dev tracker and see activity. :D

[Mindos]

They can't SAY who's been laid off, but you can watch the dev tracker and see activity. :D

When someone leaves their Dev post, unfortannatly, their special message status is removed as well. This makes it much more difficult to find old dev posts, a shame really, as there are some awesome posts way in the past. They are still here, still on the forums, but you'd be hard pressed to find them. For example, some dev posts when making the Abbot raid, and redoing it, and tweaking it yet again (did you know tiles was really hard and random at one time?), are quite the read, but hard to come by...

[Singular]

I may be a bit late to this one, but this post reeks of "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
I give you instead of propaganda, their history.
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/updates

If you actually go through you'll find that biweekly is actually just fixes for the most part and seldom content. (really wish Turbine would at least do monthly fixes.)

Given how you responded to people previously, I doubt you'll believe me, so how about someone else.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/more-same-guild-wars-2
"In an article our own David brought up there is a serious lack of content to keep a player really engrossed in the game. This year, since I had been playing the game almost exclusively since launch, I had been hoping that we would final have more content for veteran players. There needs to be something more than the Living World to draw along a player who has done everything. There needs to be more than the zerg-fest that is World versus World to keep a player engrossed between updates.

All players have had is the Living World to stay in the game and, as David said, it has come to the point that nobody really plays Guild Wars 2 as their primary game anymore due to that. What is worse is that ArenaNet doesn’t seem to be aware of that, or they just don’t’ care. In the first season of the Living World, while players were still learning the game and trying to build a Legendary Weapon, there were twenty different episodes. These didn’t include the holiday events or “break” events that were still designed and catered to the Living World ideal."


You may think the grass is greener, but really... it is equally as dried out, just a different variety.

Ha!

I took a long break from DDO to try out two other games - yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwn. They were so boring. And the forum community angry, fighting and prophecies of doom. Unlike those forums, DDO's seems to have lots of people who genuinely care about the state of the game - you can see it in their very detailed suggestions and the current, massive alarm at the equally massive exploitation (duping).

[Chai]

1st, try two years.

2nd. I did all there was for PvE in 4-5 months. WvW? Meh, it is all about who has the larger zerg group. It doesn't change. Fractals? Lots of elitests but once you learn it same every time. My current time there, about a year. So yeah, a person who has been playign for 2 years IS bored out of their skull. Their new content (ala living story) gets blasted through in about 2 hours. 4 if you are a flower sniffer taking lots of bathroom breaks.

3nd. They have change the game recently such that it has been bleeding players at an accelerated rate compared to previous bleeding. The majority of the forums are calling the NPE (new player experience) their version of NGE. So your "recipe" is now turned sour saddly. The writing is on the wall that it is really going to turn more to a pay based game.

4. half of the "content" doesn't stick around. It was 'events' that new players won't able able to go back and do. They have added only two new areas in two years. Each of them smaller than the other zones in the game. All living story does is make use of pre existing maps and puts a set "instance" in it. not a whole lot of "new" content there. Now the LS 2 is sticking around, but if you haven't logged in while it was active you have to pay for it. So it isn't free for those folks. (I'm not saying that is good or bad, just how it is.)
edit: I had to come back and change this one as I forgot that Fractals didn't exist at launch and there is the 2nd edge of the mist wvw map now as well. However, Fractals are more for the hard core players.

And my opinion. Turbine with DDO released more new content in 2 years than Anet has with GW2. However, I think there was more content by far with GW2's release than Turbine had with DDO.
.

I would hardly call that a recipe turned sour. The players provided overwhelming negative feedback about a change and it was reversed in less than 24 hours. Part of the content plan being events is the kind of stuff that does keep players sticking around, because if they dont log in, they miss it.

It is also pretty common for people to get caught up with the available content very quickly in the first few years. You say DDO released more? To get to level 16 when it was cap (the first 2 years of DDO) was a few days zerg for anyone who had metagaming experience and some plat to support it, which wasn't hard.

Continuing on this path I don't think their content will be less than DDOs when they reach the same age.

[Missing_Minds]

I would hardly call that a recipe turned sour. The players provided overwhelming negative feedback about a change and it was reversed in less than 24 hours. Part of the content plan being events is the kind of stuff that does keep players sticking around, because if they dont log in, they miss it.
You are very wrong. They fixed a few bugs with its release but they have not changed at all.

[cdbd3rd]

We can confirm that a number of people were laid off across Turbine last week. We are not able to provide further detail, sorry. We can say that our plans for DDO remain unchanged.

(Late catching up)

Not debating the stand, but still curious if we lost anyone we would know by forum handle.


That said, I know just what this thread needs...



http://barbeerians.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/beercupcakes.jpg

[Chai]

You are very wrong. They fixed a few bugs with its release but they have not changed at all.

Hardly - they do patches roughly every two weeks. I understand the early joiners in that game are caught up to the content offerings and therefore are sounding like jaded vets when they provide feedback, but for anyone who started playing more recently, this game will entertain them for the next few years at least before they are caught up to the point where they start having the same jaded vet mindset.

The same could be said for this game if attraction and retention of newer players was the focus. It has a lot more to offer now than it did after the first two years, when all of it is considered new to someone who has not played it before.

[Missing_Minds]

Hardly - they do patches roughly every two weeks. I understand the early joiners in that game are caught up to the content offerings and therefore are sounding like jaded vets when they provide feedback, but for anyone who started playing more recently, this game will entertain them for the next few years at least before they are caught up to the point where they start having the same jaded vet mindset.

The same could be said for this game if attraction and retention of newer players was the focus. It has a lot more to offer now than it did after the first two years, when all of it is considered new to someone who has not played it before.

No Chai. You stated they reverted the New Player Experience. They have not.

Individual things they changed. Such as the trading post, how to buy gems, they made changes after rather bone headed design changes were made. (bone headed to players at least why remove useful functionality is beyond me, save in the case of the gem store change. I can actually see economic reasonings there.) but the NPE still stands. The only thing I consider them smart about doing is how they rolled it out. They called only one delivery it, but if you see all that has been changed just before and just after, no, I'd say the NPE was done in stages to not cause an utter uproar all at once.

[Postumus]

There hasn't been any new content added in awhile now.


By "a while" do you mean since March?

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I'm not sure what you consider to be an "alive' game, but DDO hasn't released any new content in awhile (recycled old content isn't new), have servers that are ghost towns, and just reduced it's already lean staff.

For all practical purposes, DDO is in intensive care and only a completely oblivious person thinks all is well.

Oh yes, it's been TWO WHOLE UPDATES since all-new content *gasp*

And ONE WHOLE UPDATE since a fair amount of new content *gasp* (Neither Precious Cargo nor the airship battle mechanics in e3BC are recycled, not to mention the "turn back the insult" aspect in eWorth. And also a new enhancement tree and fighting style and airships in general.)

And NOT EVEN A MONTH since two new enhancement trees and a bunch of other mechanic changes.

Yep, they've clearly abandoned the game. Yep.

[oradafu]

Oh yes, it's been TWO WHOLE UPDATES since all-new content *gasp*

And ONE WHOLE UPDATE since a fair amount of new content *gasp* (Neither Precious Cargo nor the airship battle mechanics in e3BC are recycled, not to mention the "turn back the insult" aspect in eWorth. And also a new enhancement tree and fighting style and airships in general.)

And NOT EVEN A MONTH since two new enhancement trees and a bunch of other mechanic changes.

Yep, they've clearly abandoned the game. Yep.

Well, they continue to not support many aspects of the game, so they game does look abandoned if you step back from it.

Unique Docents for WF have been lacking in the game forever. Since Update 1 about five years ago, there's been a total of 4 unique Docents. Of the 4 docents, one can be upgraded into an Epic version of a fleshy armor, one can only be used by Bladeforged and another originally didn't gain a set bonus that all other armors gained. On top of that, the only event that appears multiple times each year (the Cove) has no WF items and players have pointed this out repeatedly since the Cove first appeared over three years ago.

Druids, like WF, are limited on what Armors an Shields they can use. There hasn't been a large push to add more wood shields or non-metal armors for this class to use since they were introduced over two years ago.

The Monster Manual were introduced two years ago but they have discontinued for over a year. Players still cannot get the TP rewards for Mephits, WF and Halflings because there aren't enough unique versions of those monsters. This could be acceptable to a degree, until you realize that the mobs aren't being added purposely to the game. Devs included an unique Halfling mob that cannot be killed in the High Roads update but no other Halfling mobs in those quests so the kill count doesn't changed. In 3BC, there are several unique pirate mobs that are both Halfling and WF, yet the Devs claim that they are all common Pirate mobs and not unique, even if they have unique names. This is very unacceptable.

So yes, it does appear that the game isn't getting the support that it should.

[Chai]

No Chai. You stated they reverted the New Player Experience. They have not.

I stated nothing of the sort. What I stated is that new players will see all of their content as brand new - as they will not have plowed through it many times as the 2 year vets have.


Individual things they changed. Such as the trading post, how to buy gems, they made changes after rather bone headed design changes were made. (bone headed to players at least why remove useful functionality is beyond me, save in the case of the gem store change. I can actually see economic reasonings there.) but the NPE still stands. The only thing I consider them smart about doing is how they rolled it out. They called only one delivery it, but if you see all that has been changed just before and just after, no, I'd say the NPE was done in stages to not cause an utter uproar all at once.

So patching bug fixes every two weeks isn't smart? Adding new content and storylines once to twice a month isn't smart? There are few other MMOs keeping up with this kind of timetable.

Most of the negative feedback provided about that game is by jaded vets, most of whom are early adapters who have caught up to the content releases and claim they have nothing to do. As I outlined before this happens in EVERY GAME in the beginning, but new players will not have that issue for multiple years as all of the content is new.

TL;DR? New players don't have jaded vet syndrome. This is why Im surprised other companies (hint hint) aren't doing more to snag and retain new players.

[Chai]

Oh yes, it's been TWO WHOLE UPDATES since all-new content *gasp*

And ONE WHOLE UPDATE since a fair amount of new content *gasp* (Neither Precious Cargo nor the airship battle mechanics in e3BC are recycled, not to mention the "turn back the insult" aspect in eWorth. And also a new enhancement tree and fighting style and airships in general.)

And NOT EVEN A MONTH since two new enhancement trees and a bunch of other mechanic changes.

Yep, they've clearly abandoned the game. Yep.

Those more recent things are making me believe they haven't. The lack of content focus for ~18 months before that made it feel like they did for a while.

[DakFrost]

Oh yes, it's been TWO WHOLE UPDATES since all-new content *gasp*

And ONE WHOLE UPDATE since a fair amount of new content *gasp* (Neither Precious Cargo nor the airship battle mechanics in e3BC are recycled, not to mention the "turn back the insult" aspect in eWorth. And also a new enhancement tree and fighting style and airships in general.)

And NOT EVEN A MONTH since two new enhancement trees and a bunch of other mechanic changes.

Yep, they've clearly abandoned the game. Yep.

They may not have abandoned it yet, but a lot of players continue to do so.

http://ddoracle.com/images/serverLoadAllYears.big.png

Remind me again how all is well.

[Angelic-council]

They may not have abandoned it yet, but a lot of players continue to do so.

http://ddoracle.com/images/serverLoadAllYears.big.png

Remind me again how all is well.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tjJyuMCkOW4

Check that graph.. here we go.

[Missing_Minds]

I stated nothing of the sort. What I stated is that new players will see all of their content as brand new - as they will not have plowed through it many times as the 2 year vets have.

Yes, you did. And I see now you are trying to twist it to something else. again. Here, read again.

3nd. They have change the game recently such that it has been bleeding players at an accelerated rate compared to previous bleeding. The majority of the forums are calling the NPE (new player experience) their version of NGE. So your "recipe" is now turned sour saddly. The writing is on the wall that it is really going to turn more to a pay based game.


I would hardly call that a recipe turned sour. The players provided overwhelming negative feedback about a change and it was reversed in less than 24 hours. Part of the content plan being events is the kind of stuff that does keep players sticking around, because if they dont log in, they miss it.

So no, while players did provide overwhelming negative feedback, they have not revered the NPE at all.



So patching bug fixes every two weeks isn't smart?
Lacking reading again, huh.

If you actually go through you'll find that biweekly is actually just fixes for the most part and seldom content. (really wish Turbine would at least do monthly fixes.)

As for the rest of that part.

Adding new content and storylines once to twice a month isn't smart? There are few other MMOs keeping up with this kind of timetable.
Do you enjoy asking rhetorical questions?
So lets ask something more pertainante. Turbine had a similar schedule once years ago. They found they couldn't sustain it any longer. How long do you think Anet will be able to sustain such? I honestly don't know. But I do know if they keep making boneheaded changes like they have been; they'll lose more people than they'll get as new players.

[DarthCaedus]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tjJyuMCkOW4

Check that graph.. here we go.

I suspect Turbine's revenue graph would be upward sloping despite the player loss. While Turbine made some mistakes like all companies, I think most of the downward slope is due to changing demographics and the technology shift from PC to handheld devices.

The MMO market peaked prematurely due to rapid technology changes.

[Bingobong]

You seem to have a hard on for that link of game propaganda.
I counter posted with a link of when and what got updated in game.
It seems you have issues dealing when someone posts something by the same company only it is nothing but facts and not hype.

You never answered my question. How does your link negate my link? Are you really saying the content releases I linked from another company's official website is just propaganda?
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/

[Bingobong]

I suspect Turbine's revenue graph would be upward sloping despite the player loss.

If it was upward sloping, they probably wouldn't be having so many layoffs. Time Warner is publicly traded and owns Warner Brothers. Somebody with time on their hands can try to dig through their financial reports to see if they can get a number for Turbine. :)

[Chai]

Yes, you did. And I see now you are trying to twist it to something else. again. Here, read again.

Nope



So no, while players did provide overwhelming negative feedback, they have not revered the NPE at all.

I did not say NPE The reading fail is not mine, its yours.


Lacking reading again, huh.

Yes, you did roll a one on that. Please review again.


As for the rest of that part.

Do you enjoy asking rhetorical questions?
So lets ask something more pertainante. Turbine had a similar schedule once years ago. They found they couldn't sustain it any longer. How long do you think Anet will be able to sustain such? I honestly don't know. But I do know if they keep making boneheaded changes like they have been; they'll lose more people than they'll get as new players.

When did Turbine have a similar schedule? Not on this game. There was a time when content updates were released more quickly, but still not remotely close to gw2. And this game has had one major plot event, when the devils attacked the marketplace. The holiday stuff has been repeated each year. ANet is in year two and still sustaining just fine. Turbine at year two puts them in 2008, fondly referred to by vets as "the year of no content". Attempting to continue to compare the two and claim they had similar start ups, is hilarious.

[DarthCaedus]

If it was upward sloping, they probably wouldn't be having so many layoffs. Time Warner is publicly traded and owns Warner Brothers. Somebody with time on their hands can try to dig through their financial reports to see if they can get a number for Turbine. :)

they are laying off to maximize profits and get people with different skill sets - not to prevent losses.

[Indianwiz]

they are laying off to maximize profits and get people with different skill sets - not to prevent losses.

That is exactly why I am worried DDO is in its final stretch. Warner Bros, through Turbine, has its focus fixed on mobile games, not MMOs.

[MangLord]

The same could be said for this game if attraction and retention of newer players was the focus. It has a lot more to offer now than it did after the first two years, when all of it is considered new to someone who has not played it before.

If this were the case, not that it would be the worst thing, there would be even more endless whining that the endgame is too easy. It's fairly easy to ignore min/maxers whining that their forum killer build copy is annihilating EE, which was designed to challenge a competent party, not a Frankenstein monster or party thereof. Imagine a massive newbie player base buying iconics and flailing about at level 15 with no game experience. Imagine level 28 quests largely populated with people that had never bothered with heroic Orchard or Gianthold. I'm not going to go into the backwards logic behind all that, but I know power gamers would whine incessantly about concessions that would have to be made to make the game playable for inexperienced players determined that they should be able to do EE and threatening en masse to cancel subscriptions unless it's dumbed down. Given that power gamers are very vocal on the forums, any effort to make DDO more accessible to new players would be met with endless tantrums and subscription cancellation threats.

That being said, I think the draw of DDO vs every other MMO is the nearly endless level of customization. Most MMOs give you a basic character template that you work with through your entire career, while DDO, for better or worse, allows you to dig a hole to China in order to specialize in one specific aspect of the game if you so choose. It opens up a lot of possibilities, but allows you chase a rabbit down the hole, as well. The benefit to a more basic style of character building is that there's less to go wrong, and it works for most MMOs. DDO is unique in that it allows you to totally fail or succeed based on a variety of highly refined choices. That's why this game has a learning curves measured in years, and dedicated players tend to stick around for a long time. That may not be the best formula for mass appeal, but it certainly has kept many hardcore players interested.

It raises the question of the value of dumbing down the game to attract new players versus maintaining VIPs that have kept a subscription based on the uniqueness of DDO amongst other MMOs. I wonder if the harsher learning curve of DDO might actually attract bored gamers rather than put them off in the long term. It seems to have worked so far.

As far as brand new player experience, I still really enjoy HTRing into a new class and playing Korthos and Harbor quests from a new perspective, especially a class I'm largely unfamiliar with. They're really classic and basic quests, and I can get a good feel for my new class without worrying to much about healing and dying. If you don't enjoy those quests on your first or second time, I doubt you like DDO or DnD in the first place. I still like the Sacrifices quest after playing it probably 100 times.

[Chai]

If this were the case, not that it would be the worst thing, there would be even more endless whining that the endgame is too easy. It's fairly easy to ignore min/maxers whining that their forum killer build copy is annihilating EE, which was designed to challenge a competent party, not a Frankenstein monster or party thereof. Imagine a massive newbie player base buying iconics and flailing about at level 15 with no game experience. Imagine level 28 quests largely populated with people that had never bothered with heroic Orchard or Gianthold. I'm not going to go into the backwards logic behind all that, but I know power gamers would whine incessantly about concessions that would have to be made to make the game playable for inexperienced players determined that they should be able to do EE and threatening en masse to cancel subscriptions unless it's dumbed down. Given that power gamers are very vocal on the forums, any effort to make DDO more accessible to new players would be met with endless tantrums and subscription cancellation threats.

But with 4 difficulties they can challenge FOTM builders and new players alike. They would have to first kill off the "must always run elite for streak" stigma to do this.


That being said, I think the draw of DDO vs every other MMO is the nearly endless level of customization. Most MMOs give you a basic character template that you work with through your entire career, while DDO, for better or worse, allows you to dig a hole to China in order to specialize in one specific aspect of the game if you so choose. It opens up a lot of possibilities, but allows you chase a rabbit down the hole, as well. The benefit to a more basic style of character building is that there's less to go wrong, and it works for most MMOs. DDO is unique in that it allows you to totally fail or succeed based on a variety of highly refined choices. That's why this game has a learning curves measured in years, and dedicated players tend to stick around for a long time. That may not be the best formula for mass appeal, but it certainly has kept many hardcore players interested.

Character customization is where DDO trumps most other games, true. When people are done rolling that character the play through all the same content they did before. It does seem like the last few updates are trying to improve the end game, but before that there was a lack of focus on it for quite some time. I hope the current trend to focus on epic levels and cap continues and even accelerates.


It raises the question of the value of dumbing down the game to attract new players versus maintaining VIPs that have kept a subscription based on the uniqueness of DDO amongst other MMOs. I wonder if the harsher learning curve of DDO might actually attract bored gamers rather than put them off in the long term. It seems to have worked so far.

Yep. It also raises the question to what degree it needed to be dumbed down. The more they do that the more uniqueness it loses. This is why I like the difficulty system. Stuff that has DR for instance can have a meager amount of DR on normal that someone who isn't used to DR mechanics will still succeed in defeating even if it means hitting that skelly for 2 points of damage less per swing, where on elite, people have to pay attention to DR and resistances or their effectiveness will be scaled back far more. The game can cater to both demographics in this fashion.

[Chai]

No Chai, you've shown how when things aren't going your way within the context provided you must twist to a different aspect. Rather blatantly this time though.

Nope, you made an assumption of what I was taking about, and were incorrect.



Yes in this game. Now if your join date is to be believed then it was before your time.
As for 2008 to be considered the "year of no updates"... That is bad memory on their part then. Considering it was mostly 2009.
Module 8: Prisoners of Prophecy (October 29, 2008)
Module 9: The Plane of Battle (September 1, 2009)
So the end of October, lets give it a month to get stale, no? That leaves one month left in the year. (Two months if you really want to nit pick wanting another release just after that release.)

Been here since 2006. Arguing based on join dates isn't something I would put too much stake in.

This is the era people refer to as "the year of no content". I wouldn't call that a bad memory at all. Before that the previous update was Vale, in Jan 2008. 3 content updates spanning 18 months of time. Compare that to gw2 - a game of the same age......and continuing to draw the same conclusions after comparing the two is getting more and more hilarious.

[Bingobong]

they are laying off to maximize profits and get people with different skill sets - not to prevent losses.

That's just speculation on your part. Plus your original point to which I replied was that their revenue was sloping upwards, not whether they were profitable or not.

[DarthCaedus]

That's just speculation on your part. Plus your original point to which I replied was that their revenue was sloping upwards, not whether they were profitable or not.

Yes it is speculation, but it's based on the # of people I know using things like otto boxes, etc. that weren't even available a few years ago. I think they are increasing revenue, decreasing costs and the # of customers is going down.

Their actions indicate they are trying to increase the $spend/customer while cutting maintenance costs. Not everything can be measured by # of logins.

[Bingobong]

Yes it is speculation, but it's based on the # of people I know using things like otto boxes, etc. that weren't even available a few years ago. I think they are increasing revenue, decreasing costs and the # of customers is going down.

Their actions indicate they are trying to increase the $spend/customer while cutting maintenance costs. Not everything can be measured by # of logins.

Well yes they are trying to increase revenue while cutting cost. But usually companies don't go the layoff route of cost cutting if their revenues are already sloping upwards.

[DarthCaedus]

Well yes they are trying to increase revenue while cutting cost. But usually companies don't go the layoff route of cost cutting if their revenues are already sloping upwards.

Did you work at a fortune 500 company recently?

This happens all the time.

[Bingobong]

Did you work at a fortune 500 company recently?

This happens all the time.

I do in fact work for a fortune 500 company. Layoffs are taken vary seriously and usually as a last resort. It destroys company morale. In this case, it's 3 layoffs in 2 years.

[Missing_Minds]

Been here since 2006. Arguing based on join dates isn't something I would put too much stake in.
Agreed, that is why I stated "if".

This is the era people refer to as "the year of no content". I wouldn't call that a bad memory at all. Before that the previous update was Vale, in Jan 2008. 3 content updates spanning 18 months of time. Compare that to gw2 - a game of the same age......and continuing to draw the same conclusions after comparing the two is getting more and more hilarious.
Module 6: The Thirteenth Eclipse (January 30, 2008)
Module 6.1: Second Anniversary (February 28, 2008) (one month later)
Module 7: The Way of the Monk (June 3, 2008) (three months later)
Module 8: Prisoners of Prophecy (October 29, 2008) (five months later)
Module 9: The Plane of Battle (September 1, 2009) (ten months later)

Is Anet under any sort of lawsuit with a major company esp concerning finances? I'm not aware of any. Funny things how what lawsuits (both the building up, and then subsequent litigation) can do to a company, isn't it.
So yes, it is hilarious how green the grass is looking to you when you look at the full picture and not just fond memories.

edit: Now if what you are trying to say, after all your twists and turns, is that Anet at GW2's two year point is in a better position than Turbine was at DDO 2 year point... I'd say it is harder to compare and I don't know who was in the better position. Anet runs maybe 2 games? I say maybe because I don't know if GW1 will ever get another expansion. If not it means they are doing just server maintenance which would be minimal work. So really they'd be running just one game. Turbine, however, was updating AC, DDO, and Lotro by DDO's year 2 point.

[Hafeal]

Feel free to ignore Turbine's linked-in entry as unreliable also:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/turbine

"
It seems fairly easy to verify the mobile direction is plausable.

I agree but it does make me laugh - I remember when Turbine was in the midst of creating a console game. I guess they changed their mind on that. ;)

They may plan on mobile games - I mean the Ipad is only 4 years old and here to stay, along with phones the size of small televisions, but who knows what property and what forum they may try to capitalize on. And, it may shift quickly on the market. The proof is in what actually comes out.



If you believe in your game, then you would invest in it ...

I guess I believed in DDO more than you or Turbine.

I think Turbine believed in DDO - unfortunately the leadership at the time had a vision for the game and the market that, in retrospect, did not fully capitalize on the market, even after the avant garde move to f2p,ahead of the curve on the MMO market. It s a shame. To me, DDO's limited success hasn't been because of a lack of belief or investment - it simply has been a failure of leadership to get more butts playing the game.




Those more recent things are making me believe they haven't. The lack of content focus for ~18 months before that made it feel like they did for a while.

It has been 4 updates a year since 2011, 5 in 2010. We have 3 this year and 1 scheduled for the end of the year. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/434541-DDO-Peeps-Tracker

It seems to me, DDO is in the process of gearing up for 1 big update a year (i.e., new, fresh content) and the others focus on technical improvements or making old content "Epic." And even making Necro "Epic" did not result in a lot of "new" content to explore from a questing perspective. That being said, they have gone this year without a paid expansion. I will be curious to see if that holds true for 2015.

[Chai]

Agreed, that is why I stated "if".

Module 6: The Thirteenth Eclipse (January 30, 2008)
Module 6.1: Second Anniversary (February 28, 2008) (one month later) which content was released during this. This was an event, and if you want to compare quantities of in game events between the two, the result of that wont be close
Module 7: The Way of the Monk (June 3, 2008) (three months later) which content was released during this, hound, vod, and what else
Module 8: Prisoners of Prophecy (October 29, 2008) (five months later)
Module 9: The Plane of Battle (September 1, 2009) (ten months later)

yep, as I stated, after vale, reavers refuge, market raids, shavarath. 18 months, 3 content updates.

Is Anet under any sort of lawsuit with a major company esp concerning finances? I'm not aware of any. Funny things how what lawsuits (both the building up, and then subsequent litigation) can do to a company, isn't it.
So yes, it is hilarious how green the grass is looking to you when you look at the full picture and not just fond memories.

edit: Now if what you are trying to say, after all your twists and turns, is that Anet at GW2's two year point is in a better position than Turbine was at DDO 2 year point... I'd say it is harder to compare and I don't know who was in the better position. Anet runs maybe 2 games? I say maybe because I don't know if GW1 will ever get another expansion. If not it means they are doing just server maintenance which would be minimal work. So really they'd be running just one game. Turbine, however, was updating AC, DDO, and Lotro by DDO's year 2 point. The lawsuits and number of games are issues of who they chose to get in bed with to develop the game, and how they overextended their staffing, both decisions made by the company

Oh, and wheres your evidence that gw2 is bleeding players.

[Bingobong]

Anet runs maybe 2 games? I say maybe because I don't know if GW1 will ever get another expansion. If not it means they are doing just server maintenance which would be minimal work. So really they'd be running just one game. Turbine, however, was updating AC, DDO, and Lotro by DDO's year 2 point.

So you're basically saying that Anet had mainly GW2 to focus on while Turbine had more games to support, thus giving Anet the advantage since Turbine had to spread out their resources. That was the whole point of my post to which you originally replied. DDO would be a lot further ahead if Turbine had focused their resources on their existing games (DDO and LOTRO) instead of Infinite Crisis and now mobile apps! I referenced GW2's release page only to show how much content can be pumped out if a company focuses their resources on a game. But instead, you became focused on trying to discredit their release page as propaganda and accusing me of having "a hard on for that link of game propaganda".

[Bingobong]

I think Turbine believed in DDO - unfortunately the leadership at the time had a vision for the game and the market that, in retrospect, did not fully capitalize on the market, even after the avant garde move to f2p,ahead of the curve on the MMO market. It s a shame. To me, DDO's limited success hasn't been because of a lack of belief or investment - it simply has been a failure of leadership to get more butts playing the game.


I think they believed in DDO during the first couple of years of F2P, but started focusing their attention elsewhere soon after. Infinite Crisis was not built over night. This game has so much potential, it's sad to see how things have evolved.

[Llewndyn]

Having read every post you've made in this thread, it's refreshing to meet someone with such an awesome degree of ignorance about how business works and isn't afraid to let everyone know. Good for you. So now you need a business degree to even get on these forums and discuss anything? I've been doing it wrong. What are your business and coding credentials, by the way? I'm sure they'll be easily verifiable too :)


As to your disparaging comments about DDO, if you don't like it then nobody is forcing you to play. This actually applies to a lot of arguments in other threads lately, and it's never been met with happiness or understanding. What makes it apply here more? I'll assume those same people lambasting anyone saying this same thing in other threads will also respond in kind here.

[cdbd3rd]

Somehow feels apropos.





http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2012/11/elephant_sign.jpg

[Hafeal]

I think they believed in DDO during the first couple of years of F2P, but started focusing their attention elsewhere soon after. Infinite Crisis was not built over night. This game has so much potential, it's sad to see how things have evolved.

Their, that is leadership's, attention shifted because once WB had an MMO producer in its arsenal, they wanted to take advantage of other intellectual property under its umbrella. Let's face it - D&D has never had huge mainstream popularity. It has always been at the cult edge. That's what gives it a base but perhaps that is also what holds it back. That and the gazillion mimic games on the market now similar to D&D fantasy style of play - many of which are quality games as well.

Bottom line - names only go so far. Resources get stretched even at a megalith corp like WB. You pick and choose. Superheroes are where it is at right now.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'm going to buck the trend here, and suggest that DDO has a long and prosperous future. Now, I fully understand and agree with some forumites' main points at the changing landscape of DDO. Is the game in its home stretch? I actually do not believe so. Even with the dumbing down of the game, there are still so many customization options, so many things to do, and has such a team feel to it, that this game can be enjoyed for many years longer and I think it will do just that.

What I think is happening is WB is planning out a more profitable path for DDO for the coming years. Slimming down the payroll hours and re-arranging/eliminating positions that arent essential so they can focus on staying in the black. DDO has proven sustainability, and still is a cash cow. My money is on DDO in 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018. Maintenance mode will kick the game out even further.

That said, the reality on the ground is that there are many less guilds operating at capacity "of old". Guild leaders just need to realize that, and plan proactive means of recruitment. You cant just create a guild, and think you are gonna have a thriving guild. Heck even if you throw it up on the guild recruitment section you may never get any takers because the forum is so dead (thanks to WBs rancid insistence to downgrade the DDO forums into this corporate clone site).

Guilds need to get creative, get their message out and run content! They need to sound excited about the game and actually walk the walk in game. That means talking to guildies, beefing up the social aspects and interactions.

Luckily the DDO IN GAME community is far more positive about the game than the forum criers are. Don't let the forums or anyone whining about the game dictate their mantra in your guild. Set the bar, set the pace and have fun together!

[Bingobong]

Their, that is leadership's, attention shifted because once WB had an MMO producer in its arsenal, they wanted to take advantage of other intellectual property under its umbrella. Let's face it - D&D has never had huge mainstream popularity. It has always been at the cult edge. That's what gives it a base but perhaps that is also what holds it back. That and the gazillion mimic games on the market now similar to D&D fantasy style of play - many of which are quality games as well.

Bottom line - names only go so far. Resources get stretched even at a megalith corp like WB. You pick and choose. Superheroes are where it is at right now.

Yes it is leadership. When I speak of Turbine focusing resources, I'm obviously referring to the leadership of the company cause a foot soldier can hardly shift its focus. I also suspect that WB had a negative influence on it's focus as far as DDO is concerned, but that's just speculation. As for the Superhero thing, I don't really agree. Like I said, I think I have more faith in the game's potential than many of you here. I remember they announced they had a million players or accounts (forgot which) after the 1st year of going F2P. There was obviously lots of interest.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I think Turbine believed in DDO - unfortunately the leadership at the time had a vision for the game and the market that, in retrospect, did not fully capitalize on the market, even after the avant garde move to f2p,ahead of the curve on the MMO market. It s a shame. To me, DDO's limited success hasn't been because of a lack of belief or investment - it simply has been a failure of leadership to get more butts playing the game.

That being said, they have gone this year without a paid expansion. I will be curious to see if that holds true for 2015.

DDO has survived a staggering PR/advertizing failure under Atari. They categorically refused to follow through with their contractual agreement to promote and advertize the game. Atari should be ashamed how they mishandled this franchise.

WB also shows a complete lack of vision in this area and simply refuses to infuse Turbine with thecash it needs to launch a real advertising campaign.

That said, at least WB isnt ashamed of their gaming division, unlike Atari was. They simply wish to invest in mobile gaming which in just a few years will be more powerful than PC desktop gaming is today. Im hedging my bets that WB keeps Turbine with just enough dough to stay creative into 2018. I really cant see past that year for some reason :)

[Oliphant]

On the main point: layoffs, boooo! Many loud and sustained boos!