ZERG Madness

[hecace]

Well, i believe game is becoming a "solo with somebody else" to complete quests.

I was absent for the game for a while, quite a long while. Last time i logged before this last month the level cap was 20. In this last month, I see a lot of people power running quests (In heroic and epic levels). Most build are solo oriented with enough self healing and plenty of zerging with barely any space for a full fighter or healer. I could sense that a build with no evasion is almost crazy for survivability because even thou many people have rogue evasion and skills, not many are interested on disable traps.
Anyway, i'm just throwing ideas here on how i see game this days. I sense that a pure barb o even monk build is rare but there are MANY monk slash.

I just will like to know if people see this power running in quests for BB. (Which as i have experienced, scares new (or not so new) players who still don't understand the game as well or just don't know how quests goes).
Personally, i enjoy playing with a group where quest can be completed (with optionals) white chating with people.
Maybe the game or quests need to become harder to complete (at least on elite difficulties) and possibly, the ETR could use a nerf.

Anyway As i said, i'm just trowing ideas. If you agree or disagree, id love to discuss but no to argue.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Or you could learn how to zerg, that works to.

[janave]

Evasion is no longer a must have, Magic Resistance is really good in heavy armor and heavy shields. Add in feats and you can do most traps if you self heal without good manual reflexes.

People Zerged since i joined, not sure how it was before.

/minute runs is the normal way, but for new players.

[kilpanic]

Or you could learn how to zerg, that works to.

It works to what?

[hecace]

Or you could learn how to zerg, that works to.

Indeed, but i don't think you got my point.

Why a party when you can just solo everything? Why a strategy when you can just kill everything on you own?
I may i put this like this for over 18 players only :p but why sex if you can always **********?

[Bridge_Dweller]

Indeed, but i don't think you got my point.

Why a party when you can just solo everything? Why a strategy when you can just kill everything on you own?
I may i put this like this for over 18 players only :p but why sex if you can always **********?

The point is you want people to adapt to your playstyle. Why should we?

[mudfud]

Everyone has there own play style. Sure most quests can be zerged alone. But why zerg alone when you can do it with a group possibly faster, saving you from using more resources.

Make an lfm, put how you want the group to play. Enjoy your own play style.

[hecace]

The point is you want people to adapt to your playstyle. Why should we?

I can see what you mean. Surely this is the best way to grind XP and gear. But i'm not sure about how good this makes to gaming experience for other players or if it could bring down your own after a while of just power zerging quest.
As i see this, people refuse more to create groups or just post BYOH attracting mostly TRed players for whom game gets easier with each new life (better stats, saves, dmg) and pretty much limiting community growth.

[Bridge_Dweller]

I can see what you mean. Surely this is the best way to grind XP and gear. But i'm not sure about how good this makes to gaming experience for other players or if it could bring down your own after a while of just power zerging quest.
As i see this, people refuse more to create groups or just post BYOH attracting mostly TRed players for whom game gets easier with each new life (better stats, saves, dmg) and pretty much limiting community growth.

Other player's fun is not my concern, neither is Community growth to be quite honest. There's so many thing Turbine could/should do for that.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't care. The amount of work required to advance my toons is so insane that this point that expecting anyone to slowdown isn't going to happen.

Turbine's created a game where the best practice is to be a sociopath when it comes to grinding out XP. We're just playing the game as intended.

[FestusHood]

Other player's fun is not my concern, neither is Community growth to be quite honest. There's so many thing Turbine could/should do for that.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't care. The amount of work required to advance my toons is so insane that this point that expecting anyone to slowdown isn't going to happen.

Turbine's created a game where the best practice is to be a sociopath when it comes to grinding out XP. We're just playing the game as intended.

This is because you are locked into the mentality that you need to finish an unfinishable game.

[mudfud]

This is because you are locked into the mentality that you need to finish an unfinishable game.

I completely disagree there. I think it's more he is locked into the mentality that he is having fun for himself, not for you and others. Worrying about how others play and what they do is the root of all problems like these.
Don't like people zerging -> Don't play with them.
Don't like that people put byoh in lfm -> Create your own lfm.

The list can go on and on about ways to avoid what others as players don't like or agree with.

[BigErkyKid]

This is because you are locked into the mentality that you need to finish an unfinishable game.

Its finishable, someone got all the PLs possible already. And some people have already their desired loot.

I think that one should not try to force with "moral" arguments people to group.

The whole point of grouping and playing strategically and more in accordance to "roles" in parties should be endogenously created as a best strategy response to the game.

But as some people pointed out before me, the game does not encourage that in the least. So asking people to do it is actually asking them to be worse at playing the game.

Want parties, want strategies...create the need for them!

[HAL]

Well, i believe game is becoming a "solo with somebody else" to complete quests.

I was absent for the game for a while, quite a long while. Last time i logged before this last month the level cap was 20. In this last month, I see a lot of people power running quests (In heroic and epic levels). Most build are solo oriented with enough self healing and plenty of zerging with barely any space for a full fighter or healer. I could sense that a build with no evasion is almost crazy for survivability because even thou many people have rogue evasion and skills, not many are interested on disable traps.
Anyway, i'm just throwing ideas here on how i see game this days. I sense that a pure barb o even monk build is rare but there are MANY monk slash.

I just will like to know if people see this power running in quests for BB. (Which as i have experienced, scares new (or not so new) players who still don't understand the game as well or just don't know how quests goes).
Personally, i enjoy playing with a group where quest can be completed (with optionals) white chating with people.
Maybe the game or quests need to become harder to complete (at least on elite difficulties) and possibly, the ETR could use a nerf.

Anyway As i said, i'm just trowing ideas. If you agree or disagree, id love to discuss but no to argue.

If you exclusively PUG, you may have a difficult time finding a group that isn't zerging. You could start your own group and specify that you don't want to zerg. But I would bet that a lot (if not most) of the time you will get people joining and then zerging anyway.

I run mainly with static groups so I don't have to worry about zergers.

[FestusHood]

I completely disagree there. I think it's more he is locked into the mentality that he is having fun for himself, not for you and others. Worrying about how others play and what they do is the root of all problems like these.
Don't like people zerging -> Don't play with them.
Don't like that people put byoh in lfm -> Create your own lfm.

The list can go on and on about ways to avoid what others as players don't like or agree with.

Believe me, i have no problems avoiding playing with people i don't want to play with.

When someone proudly confesses to "sociopathic" behavior in a game, I don't personally feel any obligation to respect them for it.

[DakFrost]

I'm sure that if you looked, you would find other people who like to play at a slow pace, doing all the optionals, killing every monster, and finding all the traps/doors. Asking for the game to be altered to force people to play a certain way because it's the way you like to play will never work. Even if you think the way you play is the "right" way, you're wrong.

DDO's population is small and continually shrinking and finding people who share your play style may require more work then just checking the LFM panel. It will probably require building up a friends list, joining a like-minded guild, and finding channels.

[FestusHood]

Its finishable, someone got all the PLs possible already. And some people have already their desired loot.

I think that one should not try to force with "moral" arguments people to group.

The whole point of grouping and playing strategically and more in accordance to "roles" in parties should be endogenously created as a best strategy response to the game.

But as some people pointed out before me, the game does not encourage that in the least. So asking people to do it is actually asking them to be worse at playing the game.

Want parties, want strategies...create the need for them!

Someone accomplished all that with all of the alt slots available to be had, on every server?

I would not want to force anybody to group that didn't want to. On the contrary, i would prefer that people who don't play well with others never group.

[Xianio]

Want parties, want strategies...create the need for them!

E.g. Reduce the ridiculous power gained by small splashes. Monk 2/6 should take 9-10, Trapping should scale with level and skill points, and now paladin is being done so that splash is finally reduced, which is great.

Until splashing a 2-4 levels doesn't give insane bonuses solo'ing will always be the easiest method. Keep in mind, I'm not saying destroy multi-classing. I'm saying that 2-4 level splashes shouldn't be better than more levels. :)

That and give monsters better abilities to deal with kiting. If hooks and AoE, unavoidable slows entered the game LFM would start popping up all over the place :)

[Some_call_me_Tim]

Or you could learn how to zerg, that works to.


The point is you want people to adapt to your playstyle. Why should we?

So, you want him to adapt to YOUR playstyle?

I am definitely of the mindset of if you're having fun, you're playing it the right way--whatever way that might be.

I will say that I have noticed fewer groups looking for a particular class or role, such as healer or trapper, than in the past. BYOH is a forgone conclusion with all groups. I haven't got a random solicitation for my cleric to join a group in many months, when it used to be fairly common.

I do believe that more toons are becoming generic rather than class-based. Maybe generic is not the best word, but I see a trend to more self-reliant builds. Since PUGs aren't always balanced, people develop toons that don't need support from other party members.

I think there is room for either playstyle. Sometimes I just want to go solo some content and not have to try and find a perfect group to fit into. However, at other times I miss the community of finding a group of people who want to put together a group that works yet still has time to socialize.

[Alternative]

Group with like minded people instead of complaining that others are playing the game wrong aka differently that they way you want them to.

Also if you think "small splashes" are responsible for zerging you clearly haven't seen or understood much.

[Bridge_Dweller]

So, you want him to adapt to YOUR playstyle?


if he's going to join my group, absolutely.

Zerg is the default right now.

Didn't read the rest of your post, somebody tell me if it was worth reading.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Group with like minded people instead of complaining that others are playing the game wrong aka differently that they way you want them to.

Also if you think "small splashes" are responsible for zerging you clearly haven't seen or understood much.



DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

This game is best played with your peers, play with like-minded people who play at your speed. And stop trying to shove round-pegs in square-holes.

[Paleus]

Other player's fun is not my concern, neither is Community growth to be quite honest. There's so many thing Turbine could/should do for that.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't care. The amount of work required to advance my toons is so insane that this point that expecting anyone to slowdown isn't going to happen.

Turbine's created a game where the best practice is to be a sociopath when it comes to grinding out XP. We're just playing the game as intended.

I think this is what grade school economic theory teaches as the "tragedy of the commons." Playing the game rationally from the individual's standpoint is contrary to the long-term benefit of the game itself if it can't attract enough new players to offset those that stop paying.

I don't think the original poster's intent was to demand that players adapt to their playstyle. They just simply pointed out that since they last played (i.e. when level cap was 20) the game grouping environment and player mentality was different and they liked it better then. They wonder if other people like this new environment and if there is anything that would need to fundamentally change about the game to get back to that environment. It's a recongition of how the game's design influences player behavior. Basically, something that is well known.

Honestly, there's no going back. The dumbed down TR XP treadmill of solo builds is here to stay, and its been that way for a while. Though I'm not sure I would say the game is intended to be played that way. More appropriately I would say the sociopathic XP grinding you are accustomed to is intended to be paid away, and the solo heavy build flavor is to compensate for the decreased player populations that accompanied those changes.

[General_Gronker]

"solo with somebody else" . . . Words mean things.


white chating with people. I have no interest in chatting with people. Let alone people I dont' know.

As i said, i'm just trowing ideas. Well, no, you really aren't. You're complaining. That's not the same thing.

[Thrudh]

The point is you want people to adapt to your playstyle. Why should we?

You had more fun when we had to party... Remember end-game at 20 with raids, and tough epic quests? Maybe what you really miss is overcoming challenge with teamwork.

Pretty boring being in solo god-mode all the time.

[Bridge_Dweller]

You had more fun when we had to party... Remember end-game at 20 with raids, and tough epic quests? Maybe what you really miss is overcoming challenge with teamwork.

Pretty boring being in solo god-mode all the time.

You don't know me so keep your opinion on what I find fun to yourself.

Though their is a lot of fun in watching n00bs die horribly while they try to keep up, it's one of the reasons I never screen when I pug.

[dunklezhan]

I feel your pain, OP.

[Powskier]

Or you could learn how to zerg, that works to.

or treat people with respect...but that idea dosent fly with zerg-i'mthe onlyone- thatcounts -mentality....yea the game is getting way to tweaked with powergamers who dump on anyone who dosen't solo EE;but there are many friendly players still...maybe start labling lfms for non zerg...I get caught offguard smtimes by passing zergers when posting...sucks the fun right out of gameplay ....cluckers will start w/o the leader and start invisin,leaving huge mobs behind,nice teamwork icehole!...Since when is D&D supposed to be- a SKIP Everything Possible game?....Faster dosen't mean better ,or are you all so engrossed by zergin games,you're not familiar w ladies;)

[Knobull]

Though their is a lot of fun in watching n00bs die horribly while they try to keep up, it's one of the reasons I never screen when I pug.

Me, I really enjoy helping new players, patiently teaching them, and welcoming them to the game that I love and helping to build a healthy multiplayer community.

[AzB]

Turbine's created a game where the best practice is to be a sociopath when it comes to grinding out XP. We're just playing the game as intended.

So that's the best way? By whose standards?

And btw, you always have control over how you behave. Even if someone wants you to be a sociopath, you don't have to go along with it. That's one of the lamest cop outs I've ever heard for bad behaviour.

[HAL]

I can see what you mean. Surely this is the best way to grind XP and gear. But i'm not sure about how good this makes to gaming experience for other players or if it could bring down your own after a while of just power zerging quest.
As i see this, people refuse more to create groups or just post BYOH attracting mostly TRed players for whom game gets easier with each new life (better stats, saves, dmg) and pretty much limiting community growth.

Unfortunately the forums are mainly old, jaded guys who have played the game so long that they are completely wrapped up in their characters and their playstyle. Don't worry, forum posters are only a very small percentage of players.

There is a problem with grouping but I'm not sure what can be done about it.

[hecace]

Is interesting how some people feel like i'm complaining about Zerging. But i am not doing so, i do solo a lot or join zerging groups quite often. i am just just came here to see if people share thoughts with me. And i see there is plenty, which is nice to find.

As somebody pointed out, i am interested in game experience and also new player adaptability. Not because they affect me directly but because the community or player interactions are mainly why this is an online game, otherwise, the game just will be a grand theft auto that takes planes in this universe we all now as Eberron (or forgotten realms). And it will feel just like farming XP and loot for Final Fantasy games.

This makes yet another difference with the PnP game which probably, for some of us is something that brought us here. And there was no point at all, to play a zerging PnP quest.

Maybe, the game has this focus now because of some things like "Easy" elite quests, Overpowered multiclass splashes and the way ETR is runing. (And i believe each one of this have been debated in other topics, but individually)

[Singular]

Indeed, but i don't think you got my point.

Why a party when you can just solo everything? Why a strategy when you can just kill everything on you own?
I may i put this like this for over 18 players only :p but why sex if you can always **********?

You get in a party b/c if they're good players, you can zerg faster.

[Grace_ana]

Everyone has there own play style. Sure most quests can be zerged alone. But why zerg alone when you can do it with a group possibly faster, saving you from using more resources.

I'm going to quibble with this assumption. A good portion of the time, I will spend more resources and time on a pug than jut zerging it myself, especially if I'm running an elite streak. If I'm trying to level quickly and I don't have any friends around in level range, I'll either zerg-solo or pug and run, only dishing out enough resources and time that make it worthwhile. I really don't care if people die in my runs, deaths happen and no big deal. But there are some puggers out there that need a lot more babysitting/help. A struggling pug gives you way more scaling with less DPS, self-sufficiency, etc. to handle it. That means that if I want to complete sometime that day, I have to use up scrolls, mana pots, etc. to do it. Compared to zerg soloing it, it's not efficient.

Now mind you, that's not inherently a bad thing. Everyone started learning somewhere, and there are other times I have led people around, handed out advice and gear, etc. But it really is dependent on what my goals are that day, what mood I'm in, and how much time I have to devote to playing right then. If I know I want to blow through Sands flaggers that day and only have an hour or two, I'm not going to flower sniff no matter how much anyone else might want to.

True, not all pugs are bad. I decided to pug out Wiz King on my warchanter the other day, even though I could certainly have soloed it. I ended up with an excellent, efficient zerg group and blew through it and Chains in less time than soloing it would have taken. I got lucky and appreciated it. But it can very easily go the other way as well. My favorite (and by that I mean it's still a standing rage joke) was failing Cursed Crypt due to time because of a pugger that we tried to be nice to and was definitely not worth it.

[TheLegendOfAra]

The problem with complaining about people who zerg is everyone has a different idea of what that means.

The people I think zerg? They go through a quest, get the best XP/Min, and finish quest A.) in 3 minutes.
I'll go through quest A.), kill every mob, get all optionals, and get enough breakables for ransack and it will take me 10 minutes at a fast pace.

And then there are the people who do the same thing I do, but it takes them twice as long for no real apparent reason.
The only thing I can think of is that they either:

A - Have terrible DPS and it takes them ages to kill things compared to me.
B - Simply do not know the quests as well as I do, and therefore spend time trying to find their way around.
C - A combination of the two, and a generally different outlook on how to play the game.

I throw C in there because while I do get all the optionals and breakables, and I generally don't care about xp/min, I do care about pushing my builds to their limits and seeing what I can really do with them in any and all situations. And I can play rather recklessly, running through a part of a quest purposely getting red alert, just to see what happens. This causes me to play usually at a faster pace than most non-zergers.

But I don't consider myself to be a zerger in any way, even though I've been told by others that I am.

[MangLord]

When I play on my own, I always run for maximum xp per quest. I'll break all the boxes, dismantle all the traps and kill as many enemies as I can see. I like to play this way, and it may not be the most efficient, but I find it the most satisfying, even after 10 heroic TRs.

However, when I join a PUG, I usually expect a race to the finish. Some quests can't be done without it, so I see it as a compromise with what i like to do vs what I need to get done. I usually just keep my Voice on, since the quest will often finish suddenly and without warning.

I believe there is a large proportion of the player base that still likes to demolish a quest and kill every last foe, but it is increasingly difficult to find that group in LFM. When I post an LFM, I'm sure to add conq/ran in the comments, and I'll still get that one guy that's halfway done with the quest by the time the entire party makes their way through the wilderness to the entrance. Its annoying beyond measure, and I wish I could boot them and let them fend for themselves.

If only there was a foolproof codeword to use in a LFM that allowed likeminded players interested in trapping, bonuses and team play to only see other similar groupings. You can put all the caveats you want in your LFM, and its still likely that some impatient player will join just to get a completion on a quest that requires lever pullers and such. I basically gave up on Burning Heart optionals and other Necro quests, because the xp is good and I always get someone finishing the quest with no warning when I'm nowhere near the end fight.

[MangLord]

I should mention that I prefer to play on my own because I have a bizarre zerg/ransack style that bothers a lot of people. I flowersniff according to most speed players, but zerg according to most normal/casual players. I prefer to think of myself as efficient, and I know when to kill giants for MM bonuses and when to ignore renders that don't matter.

I will kill everything in quests that I know will pay out, but I will also invis through areas that are too much trouble, like Partycrashers. I will usually go for the optionals, but I don't want to fight respawns if I don't have to. They're really boring.

[MangLord]

I probably would have found another game to play a long time ago if I didn't meet my current circle of friends. My oldest friend I met through my old guild leader. He always liked heavy armor and shields, while I preferred archery, sneak attacks and trapping. My old guild leader is long gone from the game, but Red and I still group up for raids twice a week every Thursday and Sunday. Basically, I've found that the friends you make early on tend to form very strong bonds that stand the test of time, despite differences in class preference. If you make a couple pals and they all agree to open doors for extra loot, then you're probably in proper company.

[relenttless]

You don't know me so keep your opinion on what I find fun to yourself.

.

Lol.....hilarious... Given that for years we've had to put up with you telling us your opinion and what you find fun or not.

[Algreg]

OP, think of some hobby of yours you are engaging in for quite a while. One that furthers self-improvement on any level and which is somewhat complex. Now think back to the time when you picked up that activity. You started out with very simple aspects of the trade, things you now do almost without a thought. Imagine you would have to reengage in this "pretraining" now - utterly boring and pointless. You just cannot "renewb" yourself, not even in a computer game.

[Eth]

Try not to set any expectations when grouping through the LFM panel.
You may end up with like-minded people, but more likely you won't. No reason to get upset.

[Ermin_Sivarch]

Its been awhile since I grouped with someone who zergs. I remember this one group that I was part of that had a zerger join, so it was 5 of us who were use to running things and killing everything in a group and usually missions would take like 15 to 20 minutes. This zerger joined and we completed a mission in like 5 minutes. if you're with a zerger or a group of zergers the xp rolls in crazy fast. I've been with TR groups and its a little disconcerting because you join at say 10th level and leave at 14th, its like you did an otto's box or something. I run alot of alts and most of these are on their first life, that is why the xp levels me fast.

If you can group with a zerger, there is no real downside to getting the missions done as fast as possible. The faster the missions complete the faster you level.

[walkin_dude]

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't care. The amount of work required to advance my toons is so insane that this point that expecting anyone to slowdown isn't going to happen.

Wow, that post makes me sad.

But it seems like the real problem is the word that I bolded there.

[walkin_dude]

If you can group with a zerger, there is no real downside to getting the missions done as fast as possible. The faster the missions complete the faster you level.

If it isn't fun, that could be a downside.

[rehakp]

Zerging works and fniffing to flowers and chatting works too ... just not mutch mixed together.
I personally run alot of zerging (most of the time solo because you really dont need party for zerging) But i run also in parties slow moving, doing optionals and chatting. Depends on situation and on your preferences. It helps alot to say it straght in LFG because "no zerging" or "zerg run" says alot about how this party want to handle things.
But i dont see an issue here ... ppl will always do what they want to do

[Algreg]

Wow, that post makes me sad.

But it seems like the real problem is the word that I bolded there.

silly, work is also a synonym for effort and the like, not only "job work". Most fun activities require at least some amount of effort, even if its only leaving the sofa - but I guess even that is too much for quite a few people :)

Btw, even RL work can be fun if you care to get into something you enjoy.

[LightBear]

While I totally agree with the OP I must admit that I too like to zerg.
The thing that I don't like is that I'm kinda forced into a very narrow options list to be able to zerg.
That is, if you can call a "do this build or fail" any real options.

Granted, the latest update does give more options.
(All of a sudden I see a lot of Ghandalfs running around ;) )

[Bridge_Dweller]

Lol.....hilarious... Given that for years we've had to put up with you telling us your opinion and what you find fun or not.

You should just copy my opinion, you might like being right for a change.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Wow, that post makes me sad.

But it seems like the real problem is the word that I bolded there.

Deny reality if it makes you happy.

[Bridge_Dweller]

silly, work is also a synonym for effort and the like, not only "job work". Most fun activities require at least some amount of effort, even if its only leaving the sofa - but I guess even that is too much for quite a few people :)

Btw, even RL work can be fun if you care to get into something you enjoy.

This guy gets it, give him a cookie.

[Nahiz]

I think this is what grade school economic theory teaches as the "tragedy of the commons." Playing the game rationally from the individual's standpoint is contrary to the long-term benefit of the game itself if it can't attract enough new players to offset those that stop paying.

I don't think the original poster's intent was to demand that players adapt to their playstyle. They just simply pointed out that since they last played (i.e. when level cap was 20) the game grouping environment and player mentality was different and they liked it better then. They wonder if other people like this new environment and if there is anything that would need to fundamentally change about the game to get back to that environment. It's a recongition of how the game's design influences player behavior. Basically, something that is well known.

Honestly, there's no going back. The dumbed down TR XP treadmill of solo builds is here to stay, and its been that way for a while. Though I'm not sure I would say the game is intended to be played that way. More appropriately I would say the sociopathic XP grinding you are accustomed to is intended to be paid away, and the solo heavy build flavor is to compensate for the decreased player populations that accompanied those changes.

Well said. Grow a pair of nipples, Bridge Dweller.

Zerging is a huge entry barrier for new players: most newbies won´t stay long enough as to join a guild/channel if their first (and 2nd, and 3rd...) gaming experience is a zerging PUG. Yeah, I put up my own "no zerg" LFMs, but I play only 5 quests or so per week nowadays (and almost always someone zerges ahead none the less).

I don´t blame Bridge D or other zergers for this, but only Turbine (streak, xp grind, etc.). Hey, but they should acknowledge that only zerging LFMs are bad for DDO´s health. It´s not only a matter of playing DDO the way each one of us likes, but playing DDO past 2015.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Well said. Grow a pair of nipples, Bridge Dweller.

What are you implying? :cool:



Zerging is a huge entry barrier for new players: most newbies won´t stay long enough as to join a guild/channel if their first (and 2nd, and 3rd...) gaming experience is a zerging PUG. Yeah, I put up my own "no zerg" LFMs, but I play only 5 quests or so per week nowadays (and almost always someone zerges ahead none the less).

See, that's just not cool. If you join a "no zerg" LFM and then zerg you're the one being a jerk. You should respect the wishes of the party leader and if you can't not zerg don't hit the LFM.

With that said, zerg is the standard unless specified otherwise.



I don´t blame Bridge D or other zergers for this, but only Turbine (streak, xp grind, etc.). Hey, but they should acknowledge that only zerging LFMs are bad for DDO´s health. It´s not only a matter of playing DDO the way each one of us likes, but playing DDO past 2015.

Here we agree, don't hate the player hate the game.

[FranOhmsford]

If you can group with a zerger, there is no real downside to getting the missions done as fast as possible. The faster the missions complete the faster you level.

Actually that has a massive downside to it:

The "Zerger" runs Shadow Crypt & VoN 3 {+VoN 4 if you're lucky} 5 times each.

That now leaves the none zerger with Two Dozen quests in their compendium not done and no way to get those quests done other than Soloing as he/she is now past BB level!


I've avoided "Zerg" groups for as long as I've played DDO {4 years + now} but unfortunately there's only a few people out there who are polite enough to actually notify you beforehand {in the LFM} that they're gonna be zerging.

And there's been a couple of occasions when I've been accused of Zerging {No idea what those players were thinking!}.


Just this week I put up an LFM for Shadow Crypt E-BB 12 Gears Once and Done.
I went IP and someone joined - Half way through some-one else joined.
We completed and I'm sure you can guess what the next thing typed was...

Are we running it again?

Seriously!

READ THE LFG!

[Lonnbeimnech]

Actually that has a massive downside to it:

The "Zerger" runs Shadow Crypt & VoN 3 {+VoN 4 if you're lucky} 5 times each.

That now leaves the none zerger with Two Dozen quests in their compendium not done and no way to get those quests done other than Soloing as he/she is now past BB level!


I've avoided "Zerg" groups for as long as I've played DDO {4 years + now} but unfortunately there's only a few people out there who are polite enough to actually notify you beforehand {in the LFM} that they're gonna be zerging.

And there's been a couple of occasions when I've been accused of Zerging {No idea what those players were thinking!}.


Just this week I put up an LFM for Shadow Crypt E-BB 12 Gears Once and Done.
I went IP and someone joined - Half way through some-one else joined.
We completed and I'm sure you can guess what the next thing typed was...

Are we running it again?

Seriously!

READ THE LFG!

1. Joing group
2. enter quest
3. pike for 3 min while the zergers solos
4. get xp
5. drop group

You don't have to run it 5 time, just because they are running it 5 times.

[FranOhmsford]

1. Joing group
2. enter quest
3. pike for 3 min while the zergers solos
4. get xp
5. drop group

You don't have to run it 5 time, just because they are running it 5 times.

No you don't.

But doing the above too often is likely to get you blacklisted and then where will you be when you actually need a group later on?

[BigErkyKid]

No you don't.

But doing the above too often is likely to get you blacklisted and then where will you be when you actually need a group later on?

It is not a bad thing to be blacklisted by the people who are not compatible with you.

Furthermore, if someone wants to repeat the quest and you don't, it is as simple as dropping from the group.

I fail to see your problem.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Zerging works and fniffing to flowers and chatting works too ... just not mutch mixed together.
I personally run alot of zerging (most of the time solo because you really dont need party for zerging) But i run also in parties slow moving, doing optionals and chatting. Depends on situation and on your preferences. It helps alot to say it straght in LFG because "no zerging" or "zerg run" says alot about how this party want to handle things.
But i dont see an issue here ... ppl will always do what they want to do

Why do I keep seeing this idea that having fun, chatting with the people you're playing with, and zerging are mutually exclusive?
I'm a ember of 2 zerging channels, most of my in-game friends zerg like bats out of hell, and you know what?
I've had more fun chatting, mucking around, and generally just having a good time with them than anyone else in the game.
I've found it rather rare, at least on Argo, that you run into zergers who don't talk, don't enjoy a bit of mucking about and ridiculousness.
Within reason that is.

I just don't understand why on the forums zerging = not fun, and anti social. Especially when given my 5 years of experience in game tells me that it's actually the exact opposite.


While I totally agree with the OP I must admit that I too like to zerg.
The thing that I don't like is that I'm kinda forced into a very narrow options list to be able to zerg.
That is, if you can call a "do this build or fail" any real options.

Granted, the latest update does give more options.
(All of a sudden I see a lot of Ghandalfs running around ;) )

You can zerg with just about any build, no matter how bad.
Exceptions are granted, of course, but for the ost part it really doesn't matter what build you've got as long as it has DPS you're good.
And DPS is obscenely easy to come by with any class combination.

[Paleus]

I just don't understand why on the forums zerging = not fun, and anti social. Especially when given my 5 years of experience in game tells me that it's actually the exact opposite.

Zerging and communication (aka having fun shooting the breeze) are not mutually exclusive. That much is a given. However, zerging in channels is much more conducive to this experience than zerging in a random pug. Most new players on the forums that come to complain about zergs are usually those that joined a group of someone who's just posted an IP pug that doesn't care talk to joiners and by the time the pug catches up they've moved on to the next quest. This type of negative experience is more likely to produce a forum post than the positive experiences (it seems forums are made for complaining). It distorts the view of the overall game experience, but so to does having five years of experience and in-roads with channels.

I'm on Argo too and I can say that both types of experiences can be had there. Its just that on the forums we mainly get anecdotes of individual player experiences that some then try to generalize to the entire gaming population.

[Hendrik]

The point is you want people to adapt to your playstyle. Why should we?

Umm, cause you want him to do the same?


Or you could learn how to zerg, that works to.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Zerging and communication (aka having fun shooting the breeze) are not mutually exclusive. That much is a given. However, zerging in channels is much more conducive to this experience than zerging in a random pug. Most new players on the forums that come to complain about zergs are usually those that joined a group of someone who's just posted an IP pug that doesn't care talk to joiners and by the time the pug catches up they've moved on to the next quest. This type of negative experience is more likely to produce a forum post than the positive experiences (it seems forums are made for complaining). It distorts the view of the overall game experience, but so to does having five years of experience and in-roads with channels.

I'm on Argo too and I can say that both types of experiences can be had there. Its just that on the forums we mainly get anecdotes of individual player experiences that some then try to generalize to the entire gaming population.

I suppose you have a point, and it can be a bad experience for some newer players.

I guess with my experience when I started, I would join people on their low level tr trains and really have a good time.
Even when I was a newer player I never felt like I was shut out of playing/zerging/raiding etc. on Argo.
I really enjoyed playing with these people.

Star and Tink were running TRs and if they hadn't filled in a channel they had an lfm up for fun.
SMA had their guild hosted raids, AoK had their clusterf***ks of fun. Scoob always had something going on.

I never felt like I was not part of the community, I just played the game and eventually people started inviting me to things.
I think the biggest part of this was I actively took part in things. If someone was having a conversation in chat, I'd join in.
If there was a debate on what to do next, I'd throw my opinion in there. I'd crack jokes, and I'd try to be part of the group.

I know a lot of newer players who don't do these things. I assume either because a language barrier, or they might feel a bit intimidated.
And that creates a weird experience where you group, and no one talks, no one interacts. It's easily forgettable. I think that's a big [art of why I never had these problems with "elitists" or "zergers". I never felt even slightly intimidated by them.

[Chai]

Zerging is a huge entry barrier for new players: most newbies won´t stay long enough as to join a guild/channel if their first (and 2nd, and 3rd...) gaming experience is a zerging PUG. Yeah, I put up my own "no zerg" LFMs, but I play only 5 quests or so per week nowadays (and almost always someone zerges ahead none the less).

I dont see this being the case. Anyone with FPS experience understands killzone tactics. the minute I use the right terminology they got it and are right on board. Killing mobs while I pile up more, or piling up mobs at the end of a long run while I kill them.

[DakFrost]

Most new players on the forums that come to complain about zergs are usually those that joined a group of someone who's just posted an IP pug that doesn't care talk to joiners and by the time the pug catches up they've moved on to the next quest.

If someone joins an IP quest they shouldn't expect the group/person to wait for them. It's IP! That means you should be basically standing outside the quest ready to jump in.

If someone wants an LFM that waits for a full party before starting and wants to complete all aspects of a dungeon then they should probably post their own LFM and put those details in it.

Stop complaining about other peoples LFM's. DDO doesn't have a forced grouping mechanism.

Edit: fixed Quote

[Chai]

Group with like minded people instead of complaining that others are playing the game wrong aka differently that they way you want them to.

Also if you think "small splashes" are responsible for zerging you clearly haven't seen or understood much.

This.

Its basically an exercise in metagaming.

[arkonas]

Well, i believe game is becoming a "solo with somebody else" to complete quests.

I was absent for the game for a while, quite a long while. Last time i logged before this last month the level cap was 20. In this last month, I see a lot of people power running quests (In heroic and epic levels). Most build are solo oriented with enough self healing and plenty of zerging with barely any space for a full fighter or healer. I could sense that a build with no evasion is almost crazy for survivability because even thou many people have rogue evasion and skills, not many are interested on disable traps.
Anyway, i'm just throwing ideas here on how i see game this days. I sense that a pure barb o even monk build is rare but there are MANY monk slash.

I just will like to know if people see this power running in quests for BB. (Which as i have experienced, scares new (or not so new) players who still don't understand the game as well or just don't know how quests goes).
Personally, i enjoy playing with a group where quest can be completed (with optionals) white chating with people.
Maybe the game or quests need to become harder to complete (at least on elite difficulties) and possibly, the ETR could use a nerf.

Anyway As i said, i'm just trowing ideas. If you agree or disagree, id love to discuss but no to argue.


i can't agree with forcing anyone into a group they don't want to be in. as people as said what you can do. when i play sometimes i go fast sometimes slow, solo, group etc. so my mood changes sometimes and so does my style. i've always enjoyed being self sufficient in any game i play. i hate relying on other people to do stuff. when i first started i would be hurt or something and would even stand near a healer of some sort. i noticed not only did they not do anything, but they would just run off. So when i noticed that i said to myself i need to find ways to heal myself.

that is exactly what i did too. i can't force that divine or anyone else to heal me. it might not be their style. we have to understand when we come into any game that styles will clash. face it you either adapt or stomp your feet. you can leave anytime or at least finish it then leave. Sometimes i help new people out a lot while some days they frustrate the **** out of me as well. normally those type are clueless and don't listen. So since then i have my style i go with and will adapt to the party if i join one unless i host one myself.

before you say anything about me as well my guild is definitely the melting pot when it comes to styles. we have pretty much everything except permadeath and role playing. so pvp, zergers, flower sniffers, raiders, pure builds, multi class etc. we have a 143 active accounts. sure some of our players don't like certain styles and we do have talks about it as well but nothing bad. we run together as well. we still work as a guild different styles or not. we have a choice of how we play and should never force that style on anyone else. leave group is always there.

[Paleus]

If someone joins an IP quest they shouldn't expect the group/person to wait for them. It's IP! That means you should be basically standing outside the quest ready to jump in.

If someone wants an LFM that waits for a full party before starting and wants to complete all aspects of a dungeon then they should probably post their own LFM and put those details in it.

Stop complaining about other peoples LFM's. DDO doesn't have a forced grouping mechanism.

Edit: fixed Quote

I'm not sure if you were directing the request to stop complaining to me or just the generalized scenario I was putting forth. If the former, let me help clarify. I was explaining how reading too much into anecdotal posts of player experiences can give different impressions of the overall gaming environment. In this case, a typical story I see posted are people complaining about a zerg that follows that pattern. I then noted that other people's experiences differ, but given the tendency of the forums to be a place where people post complaints rather than positive experiences, this tends to distort the perception of the game. Its a note about how listening to the forums can provide an inaccurate picture. I think I've either misunderstood your post, or you've taken a small quote of mine and misinterpreted it to promote an argument you'd rather have.

Either way, both are a digression from the original forum post, which was not about addressing the choices individual players make in individual encounters, but how design decisions gave rise to different forms of grouping and primary gaming activity.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm not sure if you were directing the request to stop complaining to me or just the generalized scenario I was putting forth. If the former, let me help clarify. I was explaining how reading too much into anecdotal posts of player experiences can give different impressions of the overall gaming environment. In this case, a typical story I see posted are people complaining about a zerg that follows that pattern. I then noted that other people's experiences differ, but given the tendency of the forums to be a place where people post complaints rather than positive experiences, this tends to distort the perception of the game. Its a note about how listening to the forums can provide an inaccurate picture. I think I've either misunderstood your post, or you've taken a small quote of mine and misinterpreted it to promote an argument you'd rather have.

Either way, both are a digression from the original forum post, which was not about addressing the choices individual players make in individual encounters, but how design decisions gave rise to different forms of grouping and primary gaming activity.

My experience IG is that the vast majority of PUGs involve zerging. Depending on the experience level of the players, the zerg is more or less successful but the intention is almost always there.

From my perspective and being absolutely honest I don't think that the forums give the wrong impression in that sense.