What is most DPS - raising str or cha? (U23)

[Plex1975]

I have just returned to ddo after a 3 years break and TR'ed my outdated barbarian into a pure THF pally build using mostly KotC-enhancements. The re-learning of the game has just started for me and I am wondering, if I should raise str or cha when leveling - considering getting more DPS or higher saves?

I've noticed most pally builds suggest raising cha, because enhancements like Divine Might and Holy Retribution use the charisma modifier. Can someone explain me, why cha is often raised and not str and what other enhancements use the charisma modifier?

[mezzorco]

Enhancements that use CHA are Divine Might, Holy Retribution and Divine Righteousness from Sacred Defender.
Class abilities relying on CHA are Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, number of Turn Undead and the to hit portion of Smite Evil.
Worth having skills based on CHA are Use Magic Device and Intimidate for Intimitanks.

Strength increases your damage output more, giving you +1.5 average base damage per point of STR modifier (+2 STR).
Charisma only gives you +0.75 average base damage per point of modifier (+2 CHA), and only while Divine Might is active. However, it also gives you more Divine Might uses, higher saves, stronger heals.

Try to have them both high, balancing between them and CON on character creation. While leveling, probably raising CHA is your best bet.

[wahrheit]

I have just returned to ddo after a 3 years break and TR'ed my outdated barbarian into a pure THF pally build using mostly KotC-enhancements. The re-learning of the game has just started for me and I am wondering, if I should raise str or cha when leveling - considering getting more DPS or higher saves?

I've noticed most pally builds suggest raising cha, because enhancements like Divine Might and Holy Retribution use the charisma modifier. Can someone explain me, why cha is often raised and not str and what other enhancements use the charisma modifier?

Don't forget you could completely forgo any of this discussion and roll up a PDK based Pally and use Cha for to-hit and damage mods (for 5 APs and a +1 heart).

Just a thought.

[Fedora1]

Raising CHA to increase dps is a trap.

It's always easier to get STR bonuses for damage, and the payoff is better. You want enough CHA for LOH and the other things you mentioned, but if your question is one of dps, then by all means, STR is the way to go.

There are specialty builds that break this rule, but not for dps alone.

[unbongwah]

Prior to U23, you needed base STR 23 for Overwhelming Crit, which is part of why pallies went STR-based. U23 dropped that pre-req, so now you only need STR 13 for Power Atk and STR 17 for ITHF/GTHF. STR-based is still best for DPS, but CHA-based gets you better saves, moar healing from LoHS, better DCs on Holy Retribution. It also opens up some interesting Twists; in particular, I like the idea of a CHA-based pally with Sound Burst SLA for stunning mobs then Cleaving thru them - call it your "Righteous Scream" or something. :)

[Lonnbeimnech]

There is a very small difference. If you went str based, put all level ups in str, wore a str item, ate a str tome and all that, you would be 8 str higher than if you wore the same items, but put the level up points in cha. Then you activate divine might, and now the difference is 4 points, for a grand total of 3 less damage per swing if you are using a 2 handed weapon.

Level ups in str is more damage per swing, and if that's all you care about then that's your answer.

But putting points in cha gives you a few more options, like maybe twisting energy burst or using soundburst sla from exalted angel. Now someone will point out that those wont be effective on the highest difficulty setting of the hardest high level content. And if that's all you want to run, then it probably isn't worth it. If you just want to play through to cap and do an epic TR, it might be worth trying.

Either way it makes little difference, you don't really need the +3 to saves as a paladin, and the +3 to damage will mean you kill the mob in the same number of hits 99% of the time anyway.

[elg582]

I'm playing a CHA-based pure PDK Paladin, now, and there are a few things to consider:

1. PDKs get 1/3 CHA bonus to tactics feats if CHA is higher than STR; while DM'ing, my STR is exactly 1 point below my CHA, so for tripping & stunning, run DM, for bosses, don't bother. Weird, huh?

2. A fully-geared, end-game STR paladin will be better than a CHA build. Anything short of that, and the CHA build is, at most, 2 points of damage behind the STR build, and much more survivable.

3. Skills; Palis are skill-tight to begin with, and UMD is not a class skill, so more CHA = better UMD & intimidate, which brings us to...

4. Tanking; the DPS difference doesn't really matter, here, it's all about holding aggro, so threat %, intimidate, and survivability are more important.

5. Stat damage; this is why I have always liked the ability to use more than one stat, just in case your primary stat gets lowered. In this case, if I take a STR hit, it doesn't mean anything, and if I take a CHA hit, it just means that I fall back on STR, which again, is only 1 point behind.


The only thing aggravating me about this character is leveling up a new toon to useful level; oh, so I can solo the orchard quests on epic hard, but I'm not tough enough to actually go on the raid because I'm only level 22? Who comes up with nonsense like this?

[Wipey]

I went with 16 both and charisma levelups.
Getting Stunning Blow to work is quite futile endeavor ( I have Improved Deception, Balanced attacks or Censure for cc ) so I think trading 3-5 damage for better saves, better Umd and Intim, more DMs and better Lohs ( 1.5k Loh is pretty nifty ) is good.

Even better for PDKs if you can stand playing Quasimodos with depressed faces.

[Kingault]

The only thing aggravating me about this character is leveling up a new toon to useful level; oh, so I can solo the orchard quests on epic hard, but I'm not tough enough to actually go on the raid because I'm only level 22? Who comes up with nonsense like this?
The bane of my existence.
Bah, now I want to try PDK to do a CHA build, but I still haven't gotten a decent amount of use from BF due to quitting for a while.


Keeping note of this stuff, though...

[Chimeran1]

Don't forget you could completely forgo any of this discussion and roll up a PDK based Pally and use Cha for to-hit and damage mods (for 5 APs and a +1 heart).

Just a thought.

Sure if you want to do half the damage a strength build with max Charisma using divine might will have.
A new toon with gear can get to 46-50 stat in strength and Charisma, with divine might that will put the strength into the 70's, and with Titan gloves, that will be 76+ strength Vs your 46 Charisma......

Dps build = Divine Strength if you are wanting maximum dps output. Anything else is " Hello Kitty Island "

[Chimeran1]

Y
I'm playing a CHA-based pure PDK Paladin, now, and there are a few things to consider:

1. PDKs get 1/3 CHA bonus to tactics feats if CHA is higher than STR; while DM'ing, my STR is exactly 1 point below my CHA, so for tripping & stunning, run DM, for bosses, don't bother. Weird, huh?

2. A fully-geared, end-game STR paladin will be better than a CHA build. Anything short of that, and the CHA build is, at most, 2 points of damage behind the STR build, and much more survivable.

3. Skills; Palis are skill-tight to begin with, and UMD is not a class skill, so more CHA = better UMD & intimidate, which brings us to...

4. Tanking; the DPS difference doesn't really matter, here, it's all about holding aggro, so threat %, intimidate, and survivability are more important.

5. Stat damage; this is why I have always liked the ability to use more than one stat, just in case your primary stat gets lowered. In this case, if I take a STR hit, it doesn't mean anything, and if I take a CHA hit, it just means that I fall back on STR, which again, is only 1 point behind.


The only thing aggravating me about this character is leveling up a new toon to useful level; oh, so I can solo the orchard quests on epic hard, but I'm not tough enough to actually go on the raid because I'm only level 22? Who comes up with nonsense like this?


The above is a good example of using PDK advantage, but be warned, the dps will be low end compared to a high strength + divine might build.
You have Charisma only one point higher than strength with divine might... Why would you do that? That be crazy talk.

I would rather have a 76 strength, than a 46
You have gimped yourself big time just to gain a few tactics points?
Saves vs knockdown... /fail
Stunning blow on EE in U23 ..../fail
Stat damage? Um... This can be cured instantly and never an issue.
Tanking? That's a completely different enhance line, the OP is wanting maximum DPS.

Your tactics bonus won't even come anywhere near my DC for stun so I see absolutely no advantage to going Charisma and minimal Strength for melee.
With gear, both Strength and Charisma will be in the high 40's but strength can always go higher with clickies, again another reason not to gimp on Strength for DPS.
Divine might adds to Strength stat, again another reason not to gimp on strength.

A good build is about utilising the classes strengths.
For DPS it is High Strength with a High Charisma using divine might, numbers do not lie, it is not rocket surgery :)

I play a PDK strength build 16/4
18 start Strength
16 Constitution
16 Charisma ~ all level ups in Charisma to take advantage of huge strength gains 76+
As a Bastard sword and orb SWF it is a very potent build.

[Chimeran1]

I went with 16 both and charisma levelups.
Getting Stunning Blow to work is quite futile endeavor ( I have Improved Deception, Balanced attacks or Censure for cc ) so I think trading 3-5 damage for better saves, better Umd and Intim, more DMs and better Lohs ( 1.5k Loh is pretty nifty ) is good.

Even better for PDKs if you can stand playing Quasimodos with depressed faces.

Yes the stunning blow mechanics require high Strength and stun gear bonuses.
@ level 28 you can get access easily to:
+12 stun item ( new orchard gear )
+ 5 combat mastery
+ 6 combat tactics ( epic twist )

70+ strength ( Titans grip, divine might etc )

[Kingault]

Yes the stunning blow mechanics require high Strength and stun gear bonuses.
@ level 28 you can get access easily to:
+12 stun item ( new orchard gear )
+ 5 combat mastery
+ 6 combat tactics ( epic twist )

70+ strength ( Titans grip, divine might etc )

How big of a boost would 2 Fighter past lives(+2 to the DC) be?

[Zoda]

How big of a boost would 2 Fighter past lives(+2 to the DC) be?

Plus two.

[Kingault]

Plus two.

I meant more as in... would it be essential in getting the DC needed for EE, or would it just be helpful but replaceable without much trouble if you don't have it?

[elg582]

Y
You have Charisma only one point higher than strength with divine might... Why would you do that? That be crazy talk.



Because that is how it worked out with my stat distribution and **** gear. I never said that I was going to leave it that way.

Yes, fully geared, STR is the way to go; on the way there...

[Fallout_Zero]

On my pure pally get over 22 users of divine might which is 44 mins of sustainable str per shrine. That's 60+ str for 44 mins of continuos use. Plus other benifiets of high char. If you are doing str on a pally you are not taking advantage of a pallies strength.

PDK is nice only if you use certain weapons. Their char bonus applies to swords only. I didn't like the restriction so went pure human and bladeforge.

[Fedora1]

Again - for pure DPS (and even for combat feats like trip and stunning blow) max your STR.

Maxing CHA instead of STR will benefit other areas but DPS will be lower.

Maxing CHA for DM is only half the benefit of maxing STR. Every 2 points of charisma will add +1 to your STR (on a timer and clickies) so you get +1 hit/damage for every 4 points of CHA, vs +1 hit/damage every 2 points of STR which is permanent, not on a clicky or timer.

So don't neglect CHA, but it is a secondary stat for paladins looking for DPS.

[Wipey]

I wrote that I went Charisma for twf and rely on other forms of cc.
Would like to add that Strength is probably the way to go on Vanguard.
Three Fighter lives, twisted tactics and dual Dun Robars for both 10 Stun and 5 Mastery - my Vanguard has ridiculous 80 Bash and ~ 67 ish auto Bash at level 21. That can easily be 5 DCs higher.

Must be even more murderous if you have 4 th twist for Sense Weakness or run in LD.

Stun Blow still sucks most likely since it's 10 DC lower.

[goodspeed]

Bah just make a self healing robot on the cheap and stack str. Balance out cha to be even at the end.