Radiant Bulwark

[Rull]

I'm about to play a cleric for a change.
However, I got a static leveling group and plan on having some fun raiding with him, so I was looking for a survivable EE capable healer without any focus on DC or Light damage. Due to changes like MP i feel this is getting less and less relevant, I'll let the DPSers dps again.
My plan is for him to never ever die.

My idea is for him to go 17 cleric 3 paladin for mass heal and sacred stance.
He will tier5 in radiant servant and will not lose much on the healing except for 3 caster levels on just the cures.
Defensive highlights will be 1815 HP, 196 PRR, saves 74+, 141 AC, and 20% healing amp from human
In addition, he can intimidate to magnet stray mobs, and stun every 30 secs.

When working out the enhancement points I found a nice balance at:
32 Radiant Servant (tier5 aura)
16 Sacred Defender (tier3 20% HP, +3 saves)
8 vanguard (mostly just for Stunning Shield)
12 human (20% amp)
12 Warpriest (for good value, PRR, some HP, divine might just because, some other bonusus)

feats:
-quicken
-empower heal
-maximize
-empower
-toughness
-tower shield proficiency
-shield mastery
-improved shield mastery
*eToughness
*bulwark of defense (lol. make this Completionist if you have it)
*epic damage reduction

Stats would be:
12 STR
8 DEX
18 CON + 7 lvlup
8 INT (enough to max out heal, intimidate and balance with a +2 int tome)
8 WIS (+4 tome and +7 item is enough to cast lvl9 spells)
18 CHA

Destiny will be Unyielding Sentinel.

Twist:
4 Energy Burst
1 Cocoon
1 Healing Power (30 devotion)


PRR breakdown:
45 heavy armor
21 from BAB(15)
15 tower shield
10 shield mastery
5 improved shield mastery
10 epic damage reduction
10 wall of steel (warpriest)
10 base sacred stance
15 improved sacred stance
30 item
10 heed no pain
15 legendary shield mastery
(probably forgot some stuff)
---
196

As for MRR, I don't know how much of these also count, but I figure it'll be pretty good


HP breakdown:
560 Constitution: 50 (18+7 levelup + 5 tome + 1 human + 11 item + 4 insight item + 1 exceptional item + 1 unyieding sentinel + 2 shipbuff)
10 Draconic Vitality
25 Heroic Durability
15 Improved Heroic Durability
30 Paladin Levels
136 Cleric Levels
80 Epic Levels
30 Toughness
50 Epic Toughness
10 Warpriest Toughness Enhancement
16 Sacred Defender grants 1 per point spent
100 Unyielding Sentinel
100 Vigor of Battle
50 False Life item
40 Vitality item
25 Green Steel (HP/HP/SP item for +6 intim)
20 Guild Bonus
20% Tenacious Defense
20% Strength of Vitality
--------
1815 HP


Reflex breakdown:
5 cleric lvl17
1 paladin lvl3
4 epic lvl8
10 DEX: 30
15 CHA: 40
2 Bulwark of Defense
1 aura base
3 aura upgrade
3 resilient defense
1 sentinel core6
2 brace for impact
11 resistance item
4 insight item
2 luck
1 alchemical item
4 GH
4 Shipbuffs
1 haste
---
Reflex: 74
Fort: 90
Will: 78
(82/98/86 when shieldblocking due to orb-bonus from purple dragon towershield)


AC breakdown:
10 Base Armor
4 Bulwark of Defense
1 Aura base
4 warpriest core 1 & 2
2 Sacred Armor Mastery
15 Hardened
36 Armor Bonus
2 maxdex
20 Shield Bonus
2 Vanguard Shield Bonus
11 Unyielding Sentinel: Shield Prowess (+50%)
10 Protection
10 Natural Armor
4 Insight
2 luck
1 alchemical armor ritual
1 alchemical shield ritual
6 shipbuff
---
141 (more when shieldblocking)

DR: 30/-; 60/- when below 1360 HP
Fortification 185% (130% armor, 40% brace for impact, 15% shipbuff)

To make him a bit more useful on the battlefield there's the stunning shield addition from vanguard. With a DC of 10 + 28 + 20 (con mod) + 12 (item) it will be at 70 at least, but easily improved with insight item, enhancement shift or twists.
He can grab aggro with intim (although there is no good way to hold it)
He can energy burst to actually deal some OK damage (and hold aggro after intim just a bit longer)

But most importantly, he is the healer and he won't die.

[Lonnbeimnech]

15 CHA: 40

Divine grace was changed to have a cap of 2+(3*paladin level). So with 3 paladin levels it will have a cap of 11. So you won't need more than 32 cha, which you can hit by starting at 10.

[Rull]

Divine grace was changed to have a cap of 2+(3*paladin level). So with 3 paladin levels it will have a cap of 11. So you won't need more than 32 cha, which you can hit by starting at 10.

As far as I know, that is not in the current build (U23) but just a plan they announced for the future.
I will adept when and if they carry through with it. Probably by swapping 4 cha for 6 dex, 2 str and 2 int ir wis. Stat will then be
18 con, 14 cha, 14 str, 14 dex, 10 int, 8 wis

[axel15810]

I think this concept will be fine for what it does. If you want this for flavor - ignore me.

However, I don't think it's necessary to completely gimp your DPS like this. In today's DDO, this build is largely outdated. If you really want a healbot just to run with friends or guildies that's fine. But I think you are going way overboard on your defensive investment if you're looking to PUG this character. You could put some of this into either casting or melee and still have an extremely survivable party healer - but one that can kill stuff well too. And 90% or more of the time your party members will need you to help kill stuff - they'll have their own healing covered themselves.

At the minimum, invest some in Divine Disciple for useful SLAs since you're taking all the metamagics to boost them. You'll have something to contribute other than healing. You can probably invest in this tree instead of Human (more heal amp won't be necessary as your pos spell power will be so high) or perhaps Warpriest (unless you want to go melee route for DPS instead of casting). But yes as you mentioned twist energy burst as well for some helpful DPS.

18 CHA is really high. As said before divine grace is being changed so you likely won't need this much. Throw the points in other areas. For what you want, probably WIS.
or STR.

[Zachski]

I'm just gonna point out that due to PRR and MRR changes, simply wearing heavy armor and having a large shield with shield mastery will make you plenty tanky as it is.

You won't be as tanky as a Paladin, but you don't need to be, that's not your job.

[Panzermeyer]

I have nothing against a pure healing cleric, miss the days when you wouldn't start a quest without a heal as everyone would die. So good on ya mate.

If you are not going melee at, I would not see any reason to both with the warpriest tree for divine might, some of the other PRR and Hit Points, could be useful. I would recommend going more in the human for GH and 30% heal amp, or drop the heal amp to 10% and go into the divine disciple tree. Having some cheap damage spells would make you situationally useful outside just staying alive and healing. Making yourself too one dimensional will likely decrease your full enjoyment of the toon.

Another option you might consider is Dwarf for the boosts in AC and Shield use, as well as HP, for the Uber healing Tank.

Also you might consider swapping a feat for Enlarge to have some long range healing spells for those players that have gotten out of your normal reach.

[Rull]

Thanks for your input. I will try to explain my philosophy by argueing against it but I appreciate the feedback.


However, I don't think it's necessary to completely gimp your DPS like this. In today's DDO, this build is largely outdated.
...
At the minimum, invest some in Divine Disciple for useful SLAs since you're taking all the metamagics to boost them. You'll have something to contribute other than healing

In the recent past I'd have agreed with you, but I am starting to think that way of thinking is getting outdated.

I know (and have) melee and ranged characters that averages 150.000 damage in a minute.
What does a healer/caster add to this? Around 20.000 with light damage, in this same window? It just doesn't feel very impressive.

While ~300 dps was noticable years ago, with mortal fears, furyshots and the new crit ranges and melee power taken into account, it just didn't scale well.

Now I'm not 100% sure about this and I may change my mind about this all... but I got the feeling I'd rather ignore the relatively 'negligible' danage alltogether and allow a dps to crank his 150.000 up to 175.000 by better babysitting (and the occasional stun for helpless)

I have (slightly) more faith in melee DPSing with a DM-powered tier3 thunderforged, that's why the little offensive investment I did make is more centered on doublestriking.


18 CHA is really high. As said before divine grace is being changed so you likely won't need this much. Throw the points in other areas. For what you want, probably WIS.
or STR.

At least CHA adds channels for bursts which don't share a cooldown with other heals and afaik can be used when heal spells cannot (beholder, quell).
Whereas wis does nothing but gain a few SP that pots can also get you if you need them.
As long as CHA adds saves, channels and ½STR at the same time, it is worth it even at a 1:3 ratio.

[Rull]

I have nothing against a pure healing cleric, miss the days when you wouldn't start a quest without a heal as everyone would die. So good on ya mate.

If you are not going melee at, I would not see any reason to both with the warpriest tree for divine might, some of the other PRR and Hit Points, could be useful. I would recommend going more in the human for GH and 30% heal amp, or drop the heal amp to 10% and go into the divine disciple tree. Having some cheap damage spells would make you situationally useful outside just staying alive and healing. Making yourself too one dimensional will likely decrease your full enjoyment of the toon.

Another option you might consider is Dwarf for the boosts in AC and Shield use, as well as HP, for the Uber healing Tank.

Also you might consider swapping a feat for Enlarge to have some long range healing spells for those players that have gotten out of your normal reach.

Oh yeah, i completely forgot about enlarge, thanks. (Another thing I may look at is dragonmark of chestbuffing)

I could give dwarf a look and see how the extra AC/HP trades off against losing the hamp (sure you have enough spellpower that any spell overheals you anyway, but it is always good to have the aura tick you for more). Unfortunately I am not so familiar with the worth of AC anymore.

[Rull]

I'm just gonna point out that due to PRR and MRR changes, simply wearing heavy armor and having a large shield with shield mastery will make you plenty tanky as it is.

You won't be as tanky as a Paladin, but you don't need to be, that's not your job.

3 Paladin gives you 25 PRR, 25 MRR, +21 reflex save, +21 fort save, +21 will save (+16's if they change Grace) and +250 HP.

No, you don't need that. But do you need whatever it is that 3 cleric gives you? It's not about what you need but about what is best to get, relative to the other options you have. Only thing I know is I sure as hell don't need +2 WIS from capstone.

[axel15810]

Thanks for your input. I will try to explain my philosophy by argueing against it but I appreciate the feedback.



In the recent past I'd have agreed with you, but I am starting to think that way of thinking is getting outdated.

I know (and have) melee and ranged characters that averages 150.000 damage in a minute.
What does a healer/caster add to this? Around 20.000 with light damage, in this same window? It just doesn't feel very impressive.

While ~300 dps was noticable years ago, with mortal fears, furyshots and the new crit ranges and melee power taken into account, it just didn't scale well.

Now I'm not 100% sure about this and I may change my mind about this all... but I got the feeling I'd rather ignore the relatively 'negligible' danage alltogether and allow a dps to crank his 150.000 up to 175.000 by better babysitting (and the occasional stun for helpless)

I have (slightly) more faith in melee DPSing with a DM-powered tier3 thunderforged, that's why the little offensive investment I did make is more centered on doublestriking.




I think you may be overestimating the importance of class when it comes to DPS your character is capable of. I can't say much for casting as my clerics are almost always melee focused, but class isn't anywhere close to being the biggest factor in determining melee DPS you can put out.

Epic Destinies are easily the most important when it comes to melee DPS, they override actual classes. A good build and good gear are probably #2 and #3. So when determining melee DPS, missing out on a really high levl melee abilities in real melee class hurts, but only some. You can still do comparable DPS on a cleric, as being in a melee destiny in large part overrides the fact that you don't have many levels in a "real" melee class.

My last life my cleric was a well geared THF horc cleric with STR in the high 70's. He was capable of some huge melee numbers. And he still was a fully capable raid healer as he had 32 points in radiant servant and all necessary healing feats. He was 17 cleric so he had full cleric spells as well. I could use Sentinel and swap him into healbot mode when I wanted to raid heal or be a devoted party healer and he'd have ~1200 HP so he was very survivable. But I also had the option of swapping him into Crusader or Dreadnaught to help the party with good DPS the 90%+ of the time when only spot healing was needed by the party.

So all in all my point is that it is possible to be both a cleric that can kill stuff well, be survivable and be a fully capable party healer. You don't have to ignore the DPS potential of your character to do well in the areas of survivability and healing.

But whatever you choose good luck with your build, these are just my opinions and you should always build the build you want and the one you'll have the most fun with.

[Panzermeyer]

Oh yeah, i completely forgot about enlarge, thanks. (Another thing I may look at is dragonmark of chestbuffing)

I could give dwarf a look and see how the extra AC/HP trades off against losing the hamp (sure you have enough spellpower that any spell overheals you anyway, but it is always good to have the aura tick you for more). Unfortunately I am not so familiar with the worth of AC anymore.

I am not a total numbers guy so from that perspective my opinion doesn't count for much.

That being said, my main toon is a quasi-tank druid caster build. I sat at a 141AC and 165 PRR (after the update) before the update it was something like 120 PRR. I ran in Unyielding with a shield.

I can tell you the only think that would ever one shot me would be the buffed dragons in the fire dragon raid. Other than that, I was never worried about what little hits I received or the minimal damage. So I certainly think that AC counts for something, though I do know it drops off at some point.

[Panzermeyer]

My last life my cleric was a well geared THF horc cleric with STR in the high 70's. He was capable of some huge melee numbers. And he still was a fully capable raid healer as he had 32 points in radiant servant and all necessary healing feats. He was 17 cleric so he had full cleric spells as well. I could use Sentinel and swap him into healbot mode when I wanted to raid heal or be a devoted party healer and he'd have ~1200 HP so he was very survivable. But I also had the option of swapping him into Crusader or Dreadnaught to help the party with good DPS the 90%+ of the time when only spot healing was needed by the party.

Hey Axel,

You have a build guide for this cleric? I am looking at options for a new build.

[Lonnbeimnech]

3 Paladin gives you 25 PRR, 25 MRR, +21 reflex save, +21 fort save, +21 will save (+16's if they change Grace) and +250 HP.

No, you don't need that. But do you need whatever it is that 3 cleric gives you? It's not about what you need but about what is best to get, relative to the other options you have. Only thing I know is I sure as hell don't need +2 WIS from capstone.

One good thing about having high cha is energy burst, but also divine wrath from EA has a cha based DC which isnt as powerful, but it does have a shorted cooldown and heals the party at the same time.

maybe, could even pick up hellball.

[Rull]

One good thing about having high cha is energy burst, but also divine wrath from EA has a cha based DC which isnt as powerful, but it does have a shorted cooldown and heals the party at the same time.

maybe, could even pick up hellball.

Heh, I like that way of thinking.
I'm not sure about destiny feats yet, 20 positive spellpower and 5% 'dodge' would be the contenders I guess.

[axel15810]

Hey Axel,

You have a build guide for this cleric? I am looking at options for a new build.


Split was 17 cleric / 2 fighter / 1 wizard

I didn't keep one, but off the top of my head his feats were something along the lines of -

Empower heal
Maximize
Quicken

Power attack
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Improved Crit: Slash
Stunning Blow
Cleave
G Cleave

Overwhelming Crit
Blinding Speed
Perfect THF
Perfect TWF

Character was fun but nowadays I'd build him differently. He bulldozed EH, and I could solo some EE with him. This was before the armor up changes so definitely could solo more EE if I still had him now. The only problem with the build as far as EE goes is his saves, which without divine grace were pretty much impossible to get up to proper EE standards - which is why I am now running a build with pally levels.

[Rull]

If you want a DPS cleric, try:

17 cleric 3 paladin
- Quicken
- Empower heal
- Maximize
- SWF
- iSWF
- gSWF
- Power Attack
- Khopesh
- Improved Crit Slashing
- Overwhelming Critical
- Stunning Blow (really no need for blinding speed with boots of the innocent as best boots by far)

32 Radiant Servant
13 Sacred Defender (+6 STR)
3 Human
4 Warpriest
26 Knight of the Chalice
2 ?

Using Divine Crusader as your destiny and having Exalted Cleave and Strike Down as your cleaves.

Until the 200% STRbonus on SWF gets nerfed, it'll beat the THF variant (which can take cleave + great cleave instead of proficiency: khopesh and mediocre stunning blow).

But I think a build like this is way behind in DPS compared to, say, a 15druid wolf who has almost as good healing.

[axel15810]

Using Divine Crusader as your destiny and having Exalted Cleave and Strike Down as your cleaves.

Until the 200% STRbonus on SWF gets nerfed, it'll beat the THF variant (which can take cleave + great cleave instead of proficiency: khopesh and mediocre stunning blow).



I've never run the numbers so let me know if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure THF still comes ahead when it comes to fighting against multiple targets because of glancing blows - not only does THF get glancing blows but if you're a cleave spammer like myself - the THF line also increases the damage of your cleaves. Because I'm always mashing exalted cleave / g cleave / strike down I'm inclined to think THF is still the best DPS for my play style - it's rare you're not fighting multiple targets. Also glancing blows were buffed in Update 23 to work again while moving.

Stunning blow is fun and super useful in EH and lower EEs - but yeah not for players that are interested in top end EE builds. Very hard to get a high enough DC for it to be useful in that content. I dropped it this life for that reason. However, it's a super useful feat if you're running mostly epic hard to grind out epic past lives. Also yep depending on how much one spams great cleave could be dropped as well as blinding speed if you have goatskin boots or epic boots of the innocent.

I'd just warn against dropping great cleave if you want to run in Dreadnaught and use momentum swing - momentum swing will lose lots of its effectiveness if you don't have both cleave and great cleave constantly reseting its cooldown. Heck, on the other hand momentum swing is still bugged and master's blitz is now much tougher to build up so if you're like me you're just staying in Crusader until something changes.

[unbongwah]

Just thinking out loud here: CHA-based cleric 15 / pal 4 / ftr or wiz 1. You lose lvl 9 spells, but gain access to T4 pally enhs like Swift Defense (and higher saves when DG nerf goes in) and an extra feat. Going CHA-based means lower melee DPS, but not too significant thanks to Div Might; and the upside is higher DCs for Energy Burst and everything in Exalted Angel. Use US for max tanking / survivability, DC for focusing on melee DPS & AoE heals (burst, aura, Consecration), EA for a support / DPS caster role.

Does Cormyrian Knight Training apply to Vanguard DCs? [It ought to, but not everything in DDO is WAI, hard as that is to believe.] If so, then it opens up some interesting possibilities.

Feats (12 total): Shield Mastery & ISM, Power Atk, IC:Blunt (was thinking Mornh), Overwhelming Crit, Quik/Max/Emp Heal - I think that covers the basics. Toughness+eToughness if you really want them; perhaps Imp Shield Bash as well? Or squeeze in the Cleaves somewhere?

[axel15810]

Just thinking out loud here: CHA-based cleric 15 / pal 4 / ftr or wiz 1. You lose lvl 9 spells, but gain access to T4 pally enhs like Swift Defense (and higher saves when DG nerf goes in) and an extra feat.

I agree, I think 15 cleric is the way to go now - mass heal in my opinion is almost a dead spell at the moment and you can get so much by splashing 3 or 4 pally. Original poster wants mass heal though I believe. I personally don't recommend going below 15 cleric as you'd lose level 8 spells - symbol of death is so darn useful when kiting mobs in EE, especially when combined with blade barrier.

I'm running a 15 cleric / 3 pally / 2 monk at the moment. Not at cap yet, but when I get there I'll reevaluate my saves - may add a 4th pally level eventually.

[Rull]

if you're a cleave spammer like myself - the THF line also increases the damage of your cleaves. Because I'm always mashing exalted cleave / g cleave / strike down I'm inclined to think THF is still the best DPS for my play style

uhm no, cleaving favors SWF.

You must be confused with the THF/TWF debate, cleave is better on THF than it is on TWF... but it is even better on SWF.
Just look at the per-swing damage (currently).

So if you often stand in a group of mobs WITHOUT cleaving, a point could be made for THF.
I'm not saying THF is bad, but cleave is a counterargument.

[axel15810]

uhm no, cleaving favors SWF.

You must be confused with the THF/TWF debate, cleave is better on THF than it is on TWF... but it is even better on SWF.
Just look at the per-swing damage (currently).

So if you often stand in a group of mobs WITHOUT cleaving, a point could be made for THF.
I'm not saying THF is bad, but cleave is a counterargument.

hmm OK as I said I've not run the numbers, especially for SWF. I'll look more into this.

Do you have a link to a post/source that shows the math breakdown?

[unbongwah]

uhm no, cleaving favors SWF.
How so?

With the nerf to SWF, both SWF & THF builds get the same +150% stat-to-dmg bonus; and GTHF and GSWF get the same +10 bonus to Melee Power. 2H weapons have higher base dmg, so they benefit more from the +[W] modifiers from Cleave atks. 2H weapons gets +10 dmg from Power Atk (more w/Imp PA enhs) vs +5 dmg to SWF. And glancing blows now proc on Cleaves, which THF builds get more of than SWF does. Plus 2H weapons have a larger reach than 1H weapons, so in theory you can hit more targets at once.

Basically, it looks to me like THF builds have higher AoE DPS than SWF builds; whereas SWF has higher single-target DPS thanks to the +30% atk speed bonus. [Which is how it should be, IMHO.] Am I missing something?

[Rull]

How so?

With the nerf to SWF, both SWF & THF builds get the same +150% stat-to-dmg bonus; and GTHF and GSWF get the same +10 bonus to Melee Power. 2H weapons have higher base dmg, so they benefit more from the +[W] modifiers from Cleave atks. 2H weapons gets +10 dmg from Power Atk (more w/Imp PA enhs) vs +5 dmg to SWF. And glancing blows now proc on Cleaves, which THF builds get more of than SWF does. Plus 2H weapons have a larger reach than 1H weapons, so in theory you can hit more targets at once.

Basically, it looks to me like THF builds have higher AoE DPS than SWF builds; whereas SWF has higher single-target DPS thanks to the +30% atk speed bonus. [Which is how it should be, IMHO.] Am I missing something?

To my knowledge that change never happened, SWF still has +200% stat-to-damage. Otherwise you would be correct.

Way I thought it was:

khopesh: 6.5[1d8] + 80 (str) + 5 (PA) + 20 (misc) = 134dmg
crit 15/x3 (for 448dmg), average 228 dmg (before multipliers)

greataxe: 6.5[2d6] + 60 (str) + 10 (PA) + 20 (misc) = 135,5dmg
crit 17/x3 (for 451,5dmg), average 197,5 dmg (before multipliers)

falchion: 6.5[2d4] + 60 (str) + 10 (PA) + 20 (misc) = 122,5dmg
crit 13/x2 (for 275 dmg), average 183,5 dmg (before multipliers)

But it's hard to tell with the slippery rules of DDO

[unbongwah]

To my knowledge that change never happened, SWF still has +200% stat-to-damage.
From U23 release notes (https://www.ddo.com/en/update-23-release-notes): "Greater Single Weapon Fighting: Your Single-Weapon Fighting bonus is increased to a +30% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and an additional +4 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power, for a total of +10 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. You now apply 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage." It used to say "100% more" in U22; so unless the notes are wrong, the nerf is in.

[Rull]

From U23 release notes (https://www.ddo.com/en/update-23-release-notes): "Greater Single Weapon Fighting: Your Single-Weapon Fighting bonus is increased to a +30% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and an additional +4 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power, for a total of +10 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. You now apply 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage." It used to say "100% more" in U22; so unless the notes are wrong, the nerf is in.

the notes are wrong

funny thing is, the ingame description IS changed to say 150%

reality, however, is 200%

[unbongwah]

Not to be too pedantic, but: how can you tell? Does the combat log or inventory screen show how much your dmg bonus is? Or are you just inferring it from your dmg numbers?

I will certainly be pleased if this nerf hasn't gone live (yet), but I'd like to know if there's a way to verify that.

[Rull]

Not to be too pedantic, but: how can you tell? Does the combat log or inventory screen show how much your dmg bonus is? Or are you just inferring it from your dmg numbers?

I will certainly be pleased if this nerf hasn't gone live (yet), but I'd like to know if there's a way to verify that.

So would I.

From character sheet, and my damage on the training dummy didn't disprove this.

Although I would not call the testing statiscally sufficient by itself.

And of course those floaty numbers and combat log numbers could be inaccurate also. There is really no guarantee that either of them are the real number that is substracted from the HP.

Sigh. Why do I even play this game?

[Lonnbeimnech]

nvm