THF Paladin Fighter splash or no?

[Tres_Tacos]

I'm currently leveling a human thf pally, wondering splashing a couple fighter levels for haste boost and extra action boosts are worth giving up the capstone? Seems like after I get what I want from the racial and kotc tree, there's not much else in the other trees for a thf.

[Enoach]

So the question is Fighter levels vs Capstone

1 Fighter Level
+1 Fighter Bonus Feat
Tower Shield Proficiency
Kensei Focus <- Pick weapon type to specialize in
Access to Extra Action Boosts 1/2/3
Access to Haste Boosts +10/20/30%
3 to 7 AP needed for benefits

2 Fighter Level
+1 Fighter Bonus Feat
Access to Extra Action Boosts 1/2/3
Access to Haste Boosts +10/20/30%
3 to 7 AP needed for benefits

Levels 19 Paladin
+1 Level 2 Spell
+2 Level 3 Spells
+1 Level 4 Spell (Cure or Deathward are options)

Levels 20 Paladin
+1 Level 4 Spell (Cure or Deathward are options)
+1 Smite Evil per rest
+4 Charisma - +2 Saves, Effects LoH, and Divine Might = +2 Strength
+10 MP
+4d6 Light damage
Aligned Weapons - Good


admittedly this is a much tougher call with U23 then before U23. Going 20 Paladin you can still pick up Haste Boost and Extra Boosts if willing to use 2 Twists. The advantage of the extra melee power and being able to have both the cure and deathward spell is invaluable but also replaceable depending on your group play/hireling usage so it becomes more a convenience (Mind you a good convenience).

For me it would come down to if the 2 extra feats from Fighter and if I had 7+ AP open to spend in the tree.

I would lean towards the 20 Paladin, but again if the build could truly get significant benefits from the 2 additional fighter Feats then I just might be tempted to go that route

[Lonnbeimnech]

Seems like after I get what I want from the racial and kotc tree, there's not much else in the other trees for a thf.

Defender no longer requires a shield, so with 24 or so points in there you can get +3 saves, +20% hp and either +6 to str or +6 to con, and swift defense which imo is required. and a few points of prr mrr.

I could see taking 2 fighter on a tower shield bastardsword build to fit in shield mastery and gthf. But a real thf, I would probably go pure, and get haste boost from dreadnaught.

[Tres_Tacos]

Thanks for the replies, sounds like pure is the way to go on this guy.

[unbongwah]

Is this just an HTR life or are you planning on spending plenty of time in epics? If it's just an HTR, then a ftr splash for extra feat + Haste Boost + extra action boost makes a lot of sense, since you won't be spending much time at lvl 20+ and thus won't reap the benefits of staying pure for long. OTOH, if you're planning on spending a lot of time in epics - and either make LD your primary ED or are willing to Twist Haste Boost - then the benefits of staying pure become stronger.

On a pure DPS pally, I would recommend 41 APs into KotC (T5s + capstone), 25 APs into SD (Swift Defense & Gtr Defensive Stance), leaving 14 APs to spread between human (dmg boost, +1 STR, heal amp) and Harper (Versatile Adept for extra Melee Power).

[Chimeran1]

I'm currently leveling a human thf pally, wondering splashing a couple fighter levels for haste boost and extra action boosts are worth giving up the capstone? Seems like after I get what I want from the racial and kotc tree, there's not much else in the other trees for a thf.

The 15/5 SWF + Orb is a very strong build
Thunderforged Dwarven axe + Libram of Silver Magic ( +11 Charisma ) or TF

Start stats
Max Strength
16 constitution
16 Charisma ~ all level ups in Charisma
Orb will allow shield mastery doubl strike bonuses without the need for magical training. ( take both feats )
Twist in Legendary Shield Mastery

This toon was doing 2K crits before reaching level 20.
Has exceptional survivability and very good DPS almost on par with a divine Swashbuckler

[unbongwah]

Orb will allow shield mastery doubl strike bonuses without the need for magical training. ( take both feats )
Twist in Legendary Shield Mastery
My hunch is that this is a bug, since orbs don't receive any other shield benefits; although I've not seen a dev post confirming that. Nevertheless, I'm reluctant to recommend anything which feels like it's due for a nerf for being not WAI. Still, enjoy it while it lasts. :)

[Chimeran1]

My hunch is that this is a bug, since orbs don't receive any other shield benefits; although I've not seen a dev post confirming that. Nevertheless, I'm reluctant to recommend anything which feels like it's due for a nerf for being not WAI. Still, enjoy it while it lasts. :)

Orbs are a magical shield/device but much smaller and less bulky than a conventional shield/buckler which is why it works with SWF
Swashbucklers are able to use bucklers which are bigger than orbs and maintain SWF and a Swashbuckling stance.

Orbs have special save bonuses when used as an active shield ( shift key )
When used like that, shield animations come up
Orbs also have all the procs of a bashing shield when used with attack
Improved shield bash works with orbs
Orbs have augment slots as per shields ( red slot for bashing procs )
Orbs are defensive devices for casting spells/healing etc

In all purposes, Orbs are shields without the AC bonuses and the bulk, those missing AC bonuses are replaced with other bonuses and the ability to allow the user to still maintain SWF
I would say its WAI

This game needs candy, without it people will leave.
Cracks me up how Cetus can cry foul of Swashbucklers and have them nerfed with a 50% damage reduction, while a FvS build can pull out 25K crits from a single Blade Barrier or a Sorc can blast over 80K of damage without being touched due to range benefits that a melee does not have the luxury of.
Turbines answer:
Swashbuckler or other high dps build is nerfed into oblivion for doing a 2k crit .... Makes no sense to me.

[Zer0AcmE]

Orbs are a magical shield/device but much smaller and less bulky than a conventional shield/buckler which is why it works with SWF
Swashbucklers are able to use bucklers which are bigger than orbs and maintain SWF and a Swashbuckling stance.

Orbs have special save bonuses when used as an active shield ( shift key )
When used like that, shield animations come up
Orbs also have all the procs of a bashing shield when used with attack
Improved shield bash works with orbs
Orbs have augment slots as per shields ( red slot for bashing procs )
Orbs are defensive devices for casting spells/healing etc

In all purposes, Orbs are shields without the AC bonuses, those bonuses are replaced with other bonuses.
I would say its WAI

OK you actually just proved yourself wrong, if an Orb is a shield how can it work with SWF, how is that WAI?

[unbongwah]

In all purposes, Orbs are shields without the AC bonuses and the bulk, those missing AC bonuses are replaced with other bonuses and the ability to allow the user to still maintain SWF
I would say its WAI
I disagree, because you're ignoring the differences between shields & orbs, like the fact SWF natively works with orbs but not shields w/out Swashbuckling. Why would Turbine provide this backdoor? I'm also not convinced shield bashing is supposed to work with orbs either; but again, I also haven't seen dev confirmation if that's WAI either. The problem is Turbine has this annoying habit of not confirming some bugs it (probably) considers exploits before stealth-fixing / nerfing them. [E.g., stat tomes applying retroactively to half-elf dilettante pre-reqs if you did a feat swap; IIRC, Turbine never acknowledged this was a bug, they just patched it one day and POOF!] This feels like one of those, but that's just my gut instinct.

There have also been posts from Sev suggesting that SWF and Shield Mastery are going to become mutually exclusive feats; if that happens, then whether or not orbs are supposed to be shields becomes a moot point.

[justagame]

I disagree, because you're ignoring the differences between shields & orbs, like the fact SWF natively works with orbs but not shields w/out Swashbuckling. Why would Turbine provide this backdoor? I'm also not convinced shield bashing is supposed to work with orbs either; but again, I also haven't seen dev confirmation if that's WAI either. The problem is Turbine has this annoying habit of not confirming some bugs it considers exploits before stealth-fixing / nerfing them. [E.g., stat tomes applying retroactively to half-elf dilettante pre-reqs if you did a feat swap; IIRC, Turbine never acknowledged this was a bug, they just patched it one day and POOF!] This feels like one of those, but that's just my gut instinct.

There have also been posts from Sev suggesting that SWF and Shield Mastery are going to become mutually exclusive feats; if that happens, then whether or not orbs are supposed to be shields becomes a moot point.

Why would they give orbs damage dice, crit, and attack/damage stat listings if bashing was unintended?

Making sure the melee power bonus from swf and sm doesn't stack makes sense. But making them completely exclusive seems excessive. It's a tradeoff -- you get better defenses while wielding the shield, and better dps with the orb. But I don't really see the logic in taking away the doublestrike with the orb, as it has many shield-like properties, and occupies the shield slot.



To answer the OP:

For me, the fighter splash depends on how many feats I need. In one of my current builds, in addition to THF, I'm working in a little bit of ranged capability (enough to get manyshot), so the fighter splash is well worth it. The Haste boost and extra action boosts are a nice plus.

[Chimeran1]

OK you actually just proved yourself wrong, if an Orb is a shield how can it work with SWF, how is that WAI?


Read it again before you write something else stupid.

[Cetus]

Cracks me up how Cetus can cry foul of Swashbucklers and have them nerfed with a 50% damage reduction,

Hey, all I did was construct an argument, from the vantage point of a THF'er, based on a non-trivial amount of time spent on actual demonstrations. THF was kicked to the curb with the release of this style - and I think the 50% damage "reduction" (its only a reduction with respect to the initial implementation, it should never have been 200% to begin with) was warranted.

Furthermore, I doubt I was solely responsible for this. I'm sure the devs had alternate sources of supportive data. If not, whatever - I'll take responsibility :p

[Chimeran1]

Hey, all I did was construct an argument, from the vantage point of a THF'er, based on a non-trivial amount of time spent on actual demonstrations. THF was kicked to the curb with the release of this style - and I think the 50% damage "reduction" (its only a reduction with respect to the initial implementation, it should never have been 200% to begin with) was warranted.

Furthermore, I doubt I was solely responsible for this. I'm sure the devs had alternate sources of supportive data. If not, whatever - I'll take responsibility :p

IMO your time could be much better spent on creating the ultimate Tornado pot thrower build.
Though, from now on I will be using the keyword " Cetus " in every post I write , so that you must spend precious time reading all that is good wholesome and cookie flavoured.

[Cetus]

IMO your time could be much better spent on creating the ultimate Tornado pot thrower build.
Though, from now on I will be using the keyword " Cetus " in every post I write , so that you must spend precious time reading all that is good wholesome and cookie flavoured.

You lost me...