Paladin King of DPS..... I don't think so

[Chimeran1]

So yeah, TR'ed out of my very trusty Swashbuckler 8bard/10fghter/2fvs strength/charisma build using divine might into.....Paladin SWF+orb strength dps build.

Yes lots of fun, great survivability, feels like a Paladin, has all the annoying low timer clickies of a Paladin ( I know you love it ) and generally a good dps with sound off tank abilities ( remember I tried for dps build )

Now compared to my Swashbuckler, the Paladin was pulling same numbers base but....
Paladin seriously less critical hits Vs Swashbucklers crit crazy spamming.
Paladin no insta kill ( in epics, swash insta kill is incredibly useful )
Paladin double strike is nice, but it seemed on par with Swashbuckler. ( at time of test, orb was allowing dbl strike shield stacking bonuses )

I love Paladin for the wade into the thick of things swinging at evil, I can never die mentality, but as far as out right dps killing machines.... Sorry but divine Swashbuckler got you beat.

[bennyson]

Have you tried Holy Sword on either a tier 3 Thunderforged Scimitar or Khopesh in Divine Crusader?

[Toro12]

I dusted off my pally who was OK back in the day but stalled her at 17. She was reasonably equipped for the time +6 stat items , GfL , Minos , bloodstone ,pretty much standard late game fare when shroud and ToD were the in things.
Oh the other thing she had was a sword of shadows.
Try that on your pally with DM and holy sword and smites.

Went from getting out classes by pretty much every other toon in my stable when I last dusted her off to run VoN for Raiders box. My level 12 arti at the time was way , way better.

Now I treat her like I'm playing a caster run through swing sword till DA gets up there turn aroun use pally cleaves and watch everything die.

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Ran her in reavers refuge and just destroyed damaiassi and that frost giant in no time flat.
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Completely off point but Holy loot luck batman figured I was going to grind till my eyes bled to get 10&20% amp runes in the first run!!!!

[Qhualor]

king of dps? no. vastly improved and right where they should be in terms of dps? yes. definitely not OP and definitely not considered a weak dps class anymore. to me, feels just about right.

[Chimeran1]

Have you tried Holy Sword on either a tier 3 Thunderforged Scimitar or Khopesh in Divine Crusader?

Dwarf Divine Swashbuckler Thunder forged light pick and +20 damage from precision swash+racial . (That's comparable to +40 strength bonus )
Improved swash crit range, crusader improved crit range, crit range as low as 0-20 for Swashbucklers.

I think holy sword is great to up Paladins from what they were, but it still is not enough to out dps a Swashbuckler.
( SWF versions anyway..)

Swashbuckler still king melee dps for speed,attacks and landed crits.
Holy sword just brings Paladins more inline with where they should be.

Don't get me wrong, Paladin is great but just no where near as many crits rolling as a dps Swashbuckler build.

[Chimeran1]

king of dps? no. vastly improved and right where they should be in terms of dps? yes. definitely not OP and definitely not considered a weak dps class anymore. to me, feels just about right.

Yes agree.
Maybe I just got caught up in all the hype on the forums and expected " god mode " :)

[Scrabbler]

I think holy sword is great to up Paladins from what they were, but it still is not enough to out dps a Swashbuckler.
So Bard is more damaging than Paladin. That means Bard is also better than Fighter or Barbarian...

All three of those conditions are serious design errors.

[goodspeed]

Yes agree.
Maybe I just got caught up in all the hype on the forums and expected " god mode " :)

Ya pallys are no where near the godsend of dps. Pure or splashed. Their is however an actual reason to take them past lv 2 now.

As for swf vangaurds shiny and all, but swash does it a great deal better while still splashing for extra's.

And even with the pally lv fix a couple patches from now, I still think the robotic fading centered 2 handed death dealer is king. pfft as it is I dont think id even go fleshy on a pally. The goofy forged does it so much better and cheaper.

[Infiltraitor]

The main difference between Paladin and Bard dps can be summed up by

Holy Sword + Shield Mastery
vs
Swashbuckling + Single Weapon Fighting + Shield Mastery

On Light Picks 20/x4

Divine Crusader Pally gets
15-20/x5
2-14/x1
---------
215% dmg

Divine Crusader Bard gets
15-20/x4
2-14/x1
---------
185% dmg *130% Attack Speed +50% more ability score damage
1.85*1.3 = 240% dmg


Bard deals more damage for any value of strength higher than 0.

[Scrabbler]

185% dmg *130% Attack Speed +50% more ability score damage
1.85*1.3 = 240% dmg
What happened to the Paladin's 120% attack speed? Are you looking at a particular build which doesn't use it, for some reason?

And a Paladin has the option to be TWF, with two of those picks.

[Nayus]

The main difference between Paladin and Bard dps can be summed up by

By Coup de Grace.

Head into a group of 5 mobs. You already did 20% of ALL DPS and you haven't even started attacking yet.

[Qhualor]

I have yet to see a Swashbuckler use picks.

[brucelee82]

Can paladin use Deathnip with Holy Sword, how would that stack up. I'm pretty sure they are not limited to light weapons.

[Chimeran1]

Can paladin use Deathnip with Holy Sword, how would that stack up. I'm pretty sure they are not limited to light weapons.

Swashbucklers are limited to light weapons , not Paladin.

[Chimeran1]

I have yet to see a Swashbuckler use picks.

Weird because it does the highest damage crits for a swashbuckler.....
Perhaps it is just happening too fast for your eyes to notice?

[Chimeran1]

What happened to the Paladin's 120% attack speed? Are you looking at a particular build which doesn't use it, for some reason?

And a Paladin has the option to be TWF, with two of those picks.

Are we talking fighter attack boost?
Yes Swashbuckler build also gets it and damage boost/dbl strike cores, divine might, power of the forge ( if Bladeforged )

Paladin can be quick as a flash, it is the rate of crits.....low compared to a swashbuckler.
The TWF I ran as dual TF Khopesh but have not tried in U23 yet, only the SWF + orb build and THF.

[cru121]

So yeah, TR'ed out of my very trusty Swashbuckler 8bard/10fghter/2fvs strength/charisma build using divine might into.....Paladin SWF+orb strength dps build.

Yes lots of fun, great survivability, feels like a Paladin, has all the annoying low timer clickies of a Paladin ( I know you love it ) and generally a good dps with sound off tank abilities ( remember I tried for dps build )

Now compared to my Swashbuckler, the Paladin was pulling same numbers base but....
Paladin seriously less critical hits Vs Swashbucklers crit crazy spamming.
Paladin no insta kill ( in epics, swash insta kill is incredibly useful )
Paladin double strike is nice, but it seemed on par with Swashbuckler. ( at time of test, orb was allowing dbl strike shield stacking bonuses )

I love Paladin for the wade into the thick of things swinging at evil, I can never die mentality, but as far as out right dps killing machines.... Sorry but divine Swashbuckler got you beat.

Did you take into account the U23 SWF nerf?

[Chimeran1]

Ya pallys are no where near the godsend of dps. Pure or splashed. Their is however an actual reason to take them past lv 2 now.

As for swf vangaurds shiny and all, but swash does it a great deal better while still splashing for extra's.

And even with the pally lv fix a couple patches from now, I still think the robotic fading centered 2 handed death dealer is king. pfft as it is I dont think id even go fleshy on a pally. The goofy forged does it so much better and cheaper.

Yes loved that build before U23, have yet to try again with U23.
Love Bladeforged wrecking balls.

[Chimeran1]

Did you take into account the U23 SWF nerf?

Seemed to all be still working fine.
Maybe it never happened, double strike shield mastery still works, legendary still works as far as I know ( Dwarven Parody build guild member was chatting yesterday )

[giftie]

crit range as low as 0-20 for Swashbucklers.

1 is still a miss, but could you break that crit range down for us?


I think holy sword is great to up Paladins from what they were, but it still is not enough to out dps a Swashbuckler.
( SWF versions anyway..)

A DPS Paladin wouldn't go SWF.


Paladin can be quick as a flash, it is the rate of crits.....low compared to a swashbuckler.

Paladins get a better crit range than Swashbuckler, and like others have said are not limited to light weapons. TWF Paladin gets faster attack rate as well. While TWF Paladins don't get the attack speed and doublestike from Vanguard, they can still get 15 melee power from KotC.

[Infiltraitor]

What happened to the Paladin's 120% attack speed? Are you looking at a particular build which doesn't use it, for some reason?

And a Paladin has the option to be TWF, with two of those picks.

Paladins get 15% attack speed if you devote 31 points into Vanguard. Spending 39% of their action points.

However, Bards can devote 3 feats and get 30% attack speed from Single Weapon Fighting. Spending 30% of their feats. (Or less if they went human or took fighter)


More importantly, Action points are more valuable than feats.

Xendrik Weapons Training gives 2 damage for 4 action points.
Weapon Specialization Feat gives 2 damage for 1 feat.

2x Constitution gives 28 HP for 4 action points.
Toughness gives 30 HP for 1 feat.

Acrobatic gives 3 dodge for 3 action points.
Dodge gives 3 dodge for 1 feat.

Using those benchmarks, 1 feat is worth only 4 action points.

31 Action points is equivalent to spending 8 feats.

[depositbox]

Paladins get 15% attack speed if you devote 31 points into Vanguard. Spending 39% of their action points.

Why not swf with a paladin?

[Scrabbler]

Why not swf with a paladin?
Paladin certainly can try SWF. Before U23, one downside to SWF Paladins (compared to TWF) was that they'd miss out on the 80-90% chance for doubled Exalted Smite attacks. But now that Exalted Smite is nerfed, that's no longer a concern.

The disadvantage to SWF Paladin compared to SWF Bard is that the Bard can equip a buckler shield and use shield-required feats / EDs to get more Doublestrike. The only way an SWF Paladin can use those Doublestrike sources is by holding an Orb, which requires another feat to qualify and doesn't give the same melee-related benefits on the item itself.

[Chimeran1]

Paladin certainly can try SWF. Before U23, one downside to SWF Paladins (compared to TWF) was that they'd miss out on the 80-90% chance for doubled Exalted Smite attacks. But now that Exalted Smite is nerfed, that's no longer a concern.

The disadvantage to SWF Paladin compared to SWF Bard is that the Bard can equip a buckler shield and use shield-required feats / EDs to get more Doublestrike. The only way an SWF Paladin can use those Doublestrike sources is by holding an Orb, which requires another feat to qualify and doesn't give the same melee-related benefits on the item itself.

Orb seems to work without the required feat of magical training, it is giving the double strike bonuses ATM.
I went SWF + orb because it was the only Paladin build that came close to Swashbuckler dps......
Paladin lacks the crit range but gets the use of heavy armor bonuses that swash buckler will never get.
Different horses for different courses, unfortunately I have been spoilt with the killing machine madness that is Swashbuckler.
Paladin is a lot of fun and actually a lot less to worry about because the survivability is brilliant.
Swashbuckler requires you to be very attentive on your health bar, aggro and cool downs.
Paladin is more, ....

5 aggrod mobs, door bell rings,
afk.... Answer door, go to pay for pizza, short changed, go find some change, eat some pizza, sit down...
Hit keys 1 thru 6
Afk, go make coffee,
Sit down, hit divine might/power , then keys 1 thru 6
Everything's dead
Cast heal to replace the 6 damage you took while soloing EE .