Rogue and will saves

[Neomarica]

I'm currently a third life Dwarf Rogue level 14(Past lives wizard and sorcerer). My stats are 15/28/31/32/15/13 including ship buffs. With +6 resistance bonus and GH from planar gird, my total will save is +17(compared to fort 27 and reflex 31). I also have +2 to saves vs. spells(from being a dwarf) and slippery mind. I notice I'm failing a lot of saves against hold monster, fear effects, etc. Is there some easy way to boost my will saves? Should I just get a +wis item and possibly Iron Will and suck it up? Or will my will saves suck no matter what I do?

[Saekee]

will saves are a rogue's weak spot--do not waste a feat on iron will though--look into boosting it like you are doing (wisdom item is great idea, or even an augment since gear is so precious).

Consider specific wards against what is ailing you--the spell Protection from Evil will help A LOT--there is the trinket that drops in Church and Cult that gives it continuously.
Otherwise, work on aggro mgmt in groups or stealth when alone

[CThruTheEgo]

Or will my will saves suck no matter what I do?

Basically, yes.


slippery mind

Which is why this feat is pointless. If you are going to fail your will save no matter what you do, then having slippery mind just means you are going to fail it twice. For the rogue bonus feats, I'd take improved evasion, opportunist, and skill mastery x2. Skill mastery is only because the others don't really offer you anything.

As Saekee said, protection from evil is your best defense against will save spells in heroic levels. It was broken in epics and did nothing, but I don't know if that is still the case since I stopped using it a long time ago.

[HuneyMunster]

Like what was mentioned Prot from Evil will help especially against evil casters that use greater command. Scrolls and pots can be bought from vendors but only last a short time, but wands with higher caster level drops and might be found on auction. Dont work if the caster is not evil such as magefire cannons in epic 3bc.

If there is no caster that can give you freedom of movement for holds then you can swap in the privateer boots or kundrak delving boots for it as needed. Also Greater Heroism scrolls will make you immune to fear spells. A paladin can also cast lionheart for fear immunity.

[HuneyMunster]

As Saekee said, protection from evil is your best defense against will save spells in heroic levels. It was broken in epics and did nothing, but I don't know if that is still the case since I stopped using it a long time ago.

Ive never been commanded by priestesses in underdark on my sorc with prot from evil spell, but have without. I think the spell now works correctly, but I could be wrong. Wands were never broken from what I remember reading somewhere on forums some time ago.

[Livmo]

The Harbinger of Madness chain drops the Parasitic Breastplate (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Parasitic_Breastplate) (light armor). Upgrade it with Alien Mind at the Alter of Insanity (http://ddowiki.com/page/Altar_of_Insanity) in the 12. The Alien Mind upgrade will give you +10 to will saves.

[Lonnbeimnech]

protection from evil and magic circle against evil

The spells cast from clickies, wands, scrolls, blue bars, all give immunity to command and greater command.

Items such as http://ddowiki.com/page/Fragment_of_the_Silver_Flame or the ship buff do not give immunity to command and greater command.

I don't think epic/heroic has anything to do with it.

[Thalone]

Protection from Evil is bugged in that the immunity from command does not have a proper duration when from an item/pot. I lasted tested it here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441568-Help-needed-vs-Hold-Person?p=5330145&viewfull=1#post5330145). I'm unsure if it's possible to test the save boost given we can't roll evil characters, and the bonus is typed as Resistance, which shouldn't stack with a resistance item.

At level 14, it looks like your math is a little off: 4 (Rogue 14) + 6 (item) + 2 (Dwarf) + 2 (Wisdom mod) + 2 (Guild) + 4 (GH) [+ 1 vs. Enchantment (Guild)] = 19. Since you're a Rogue, you should be able to UMD GH scrolls if your Gird charge wears off, so you'll generally be able to eschew an antifear item unless it's a dispel-heavy quest (can be socketed in a yellow slot). Against holds or dances, you don't really have a lot of options at your level as the VoN boots are raid items and everything else is epic. You can Cannith-craft an +6 Enchantment Save item (this stacks with regular save items at last report) for additional saves against Enchantment. If you can find an item with a free augment slot, you can put in a Wisdom augment instead of devoting one slot specifically for the stat. Beyond that, your best bet is to play smart: let other people take the aggro, take out the casters first, use pulling tactics so you don't get overwhelmed, use terrain to break line of sight, carry Gust of Wind scrolls so you can clear away persistent disco balls.

[Lonnbeimnech]

one other option is to get http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Harper_Pin,_Greater

Though at level 14 it might be a tall order to finish all those quests, since I think the lowest one is lvl 17. But it's something to pick up in the not too distant future.

Theres also spell resistance. Now, many people will tell you that this is useless since it doesn't work in EE... Of course it does work in anything lower than that, so It might be worth finding an item with it.

[nokowi]

Basically, yes.



Which is why this feat is pointless. If you are going to fail your will save no matter what you do, then having slippery mind just means you are going to fail it twice. For the rogue bonus feats, I'd take improved evasion, opportunist, and skill mastery x2. Skill mastery is only because the others don't really offer you anything.

As Saekee said, protection from evil is your best defense against will save spells in heroic levels. It was broken in epics and did nothing, but I don't know if that is still the case since I stopped using it a long time ago.

This is absolutely false. I take the Slippery Mind ability because it is useful. I have no problem with will saves (heroic or endgame), and I don't even bother having protection from evil.
1. Always have the maximum resistance item for your level
2. Don't forget you can add +1 resistance to a jewelry item using the stone of change
3. Wis is not a dump stat. Think about putting 1-4 build points into Wis at character creation. Have the max Wis item your level allows. Add an exceptional Wis augment.
4. Look for a good insightful save item - random loot bracers or named gear (usually weapon).
5. Make sure you have a luck bonus item for saves.
6. Use GH (scrolls or planar gird)

See if you can get a pale lavender ioun stone. I only use mine for beholders, but they can prevent failed will saves if you don't have the stats. If you get one, only equip it for tough battles, or you will find its charges gone when you do need it.

+6 Wis item
+2 Luck
+1 stone of change

should add +6 to your current will saves (and +3 to Fort and Reflex).

[Wipey]

People would spend epic feat on Elusive Target which is < 5% of total avoidance benefit, but FREE feat for another 5 % chance to save ( 20 roll ) is bad. :)

Messing around with rogue on Lama last few weeks, pretty sure I was getting feared with Innocent boots or that 30 heal amp neck, does Fear Immunity even work on live ?

Anyway, all has been said, GH scrolls and perma Fom - like every other toon with weak saves.

[CThruTheEgo]

This is absolutely false. I take the Slippery Mind ability because it is useful. I have no problem with will saves (heroic or endgame)

Can you provide a full breakdown of your endgame EE viable will save? I don't see how to get there. I've asked others who make the same claim as you and have yet to see a full breakdown on a pure assassin.

[CThruTheEgo]

Messing around with rogue on Lama last few weeks, pretty sure I was getting feared with Innocent boots or that 30 heal amp neck, does Fear Immunity even work on live ?

I was wondering if the boots would protect against fear also. Note that it does not specifically mention fear immunity in the description, even though the effect is called greater heroism. The warchanter song of heroism also does not provide fear immunity, even though it also says it provides greater heroism.

Good to know that Shroud of the Ardent doesn't provide it either.

[Wipey]

I played with gear swaps back and forth ( Dark Diversion - Shroud of the Ardent, Masque - Muffled Veener - Deific Diadem ) so not 100 % sure about Shroud of the Ardent Sir. Had Innocent boots always on and was getting feared in Gianthold, at least that doesn't work.
Will see tomorrow anyway.

No idea about Fear Immunity on live, mutliple Planar Girds in heroics and every gimp of mine scrolls GH reliably. Yellow slots have better uses.

[nokowi]

Can you provide a full breakdown of your endgame EE viable will save? I don't see how to get there. I've asked others who make the same claim as you and have yet to see a full breakdown on a pure assassin.

Sure:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgjCKLGi8kMIzg2BtiojRfg

I go through all the save bonuses on the Nokowi Assassin video.
You can watch me solo 7 EE Quests.
I think I failed 1 Will save while soloing Foundation of Discord (the only failure in all 7 solo quests), but I had the Harper Pin.
I did not use Protection From Evil (I probably should but my save failure rate is so low I have never bothered)

I find ~54 to be the magic number for no fail Fort and ~50 for no fail Will.

[nokowi]

People would spend epic feat on Elusive Target which is < 5% of total avoidance benefit, but FREE feat for another 5 % chance to save ( 20 roll ) is bad. :)

Messing around with rogue on Lama last few weeks, pretty sure I was getting feared with Innocent boots or that 30 heal amp neck, does Fear Immunity even work on live ?

Anyway, all has been said, GH scrolls and perma Fom - like every other toon with weak saves.

Haha! That pretty much makes you cast GH anyway. ROFL

[CThruTheEgo]

Sure:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgjCKLGi8kMIzg2BtiojRfg

I go through all the save bonuses on the Nokowi Assassin video.
You can watch me solo 7 EE Quests.
I think I failed 1 Will save while soloing Foundation of Discord (the only failure in all 7 solo quests), but I had the Harper Pin.
I did not use Protection From Evil (I probably should but my save failure rate is so low I have never bothered)

I find ~54 to be the magic number for no fail Fort and ~50 for no fail Will.

That has not been my experience with a mid 40s will save. Santa's Little Slayer in my sig had a 45 will save and frequently failed.

[nokowi]

That has not been my experience with a mid 40s will save. Santa's Little Slayer in my sig had a 45 will save and frequently failed.

Get into the high 40's with slippery mind. You will see a big difference. I started with 8 Wis.

If you are suggesting a DC 45 will save is auto fail, then you are incorrect.

Lets say DC 45 fails frequently (say 40% of the time). Slippery Mind would still reduce your failure rate from 40% to 16%.

A DC 49 Will would fail 20% of the time, and only 4% of the time with Slippery Mind.

Go find that extra 3-4 Will Save. You got so close before giving up on slippery mind.

Yes, one might even sacrifice some build points to get rid of a rogues glaring weakness (Will Saves). If I have any build points beyond Int and Con, and Min Dex, they go into Wis. I had several lives where I started with 9-14 wis.

I may be the only one running Balizarde in the offhand, but there is a very good reason (saves).

My U23 build will get rid of Balizarde, increase DPS by 66%, and increase my saves by 2 more. (Will=50)

[Wipey]

No desire to play these days but looks like you like methodical testing Nokowi :)
Pretty sure you will get held / Dazed by Mirror Darkly boss, Cat boss in Cry, Symbol of Stun from Jibbers or YuanTi shamen in Garl's Tomb, Danced in Fot with 50 Will.
Just few from top of my head.
Disintegrate or Flesh to Stone from Mirror Beholder - you are safe around 65 - 68 ish Fort.

Horrid Wilting / Disintegrate or Hold from red named casters in Deathwyrm, it's pretty hard to test those things.

[CThruTheEgo]

If you are suggesting a DC 45 will save is auto fail, then you are incorrect.

Lets say DC 45 fails frequently (say 40% of the time). Slippery Mind would still reduce your failure rate from 40% to 16%.

I'm not suggesting a 45 will save is auto fail. I'd estimate it to be closer to 60+% fail though, not 40%.


You got so close before giving up on slippery mind.

You can't give up on what isn't available. The build I mentioned as having a 45 will save had no rogue levels.

[nokowi]

No desire to play these days but looks like you like methodical testing Nokowi :)
Pretty sure you will get held / Dazed by Mirror Darkly boss, Cat boss in Cry, Symbol of Stun from Jibbers or YuanTi shamen in Garl's Tomb, Danced in Fot with 50 Will.
Just few from top of my head.
Disintegrate or Flesh to Stone from Mirror Beholder - you are safe around 65 - 68 ish Fort.

Horrid Wilting / Disintegrate or Hold from red named casters in Deathwyrm, it's pretty hard to test those things.

Did you just volunteer me for more testing :)

I used Will = 54 as the the no-fail Will save for the prior calcs. Will = 45, success on (9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20) = 60% success rate, 40% failure rate.

I never said I have no fail. Make Will=58 no fail and the math says the same thing (Slippery Mind + Highest Possible Will Save = WIN!)

Will No Fail=58
Will Save=45, Failure 60%, 36% with slippery mind (not that useful)
Will Save=49, Failure 40%, 16% with slippery Mind

16% Failure is MUCH better than 60% Failure. If that means failure every 5 mins, you have a high enough Will Save.

If you fail only once every 5 mins, the Harper pin will let you run around as if you never fail.
You need to reduce your failures enough the you rarely get held past the use of the Harper pin.

Also note that an Int rogue should be running around in stealth, which means not that many attempts should be made on you. I may be biased towards thinking my Will Saves nearly auto-succeed because I use stealth to prevent failures. The math is still good (you have many times less failures with slippery mind, Will Save is very important).

If you go back to the main forums where I complained about U22 bugs, you will find some players telling me I was a "one trick pony" or that I didn't know how to play a rogue properly because I used stealth. Here is yet another example of why stealth is so important. The best rogues will use stealth because it is the most effective way to play this character.

Your rogue will NOT be tanking the boss, so it is unfair to compare the DC's needed for a proper tank. I believe we are all talking about pesky casters on the way to the end fight. Use that PL ioun stone if you need it for the boss.

I can say for certain that I don't perceive any problems with Will saves, with my play style, and Will = 48 (+ Slippery Mind + Greater Harper Pin). For U23, I Will have Will=50 with Wis=8 starting, and only a +8 Wis item.

If I perceive a problem in U23, I can drop Int or Con by 2 (or 1 each) and boost my will save by 3. U23 even has a +11 Wis/Int/Cha item. A Will Save as high as 55-56 is obtainable if you fit this item into your build and sacrifice 6 character build points.

[nokowi]

Did you just volunteer me for more testing :)

I used Will = 54 as the the no-fail Will save for the prior calcs. Will = 45, success on (9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20) = 60% success rate, 40% failure rate.

I never said I have no fail. Make Will=58 no fail and the math says the same thing (Slippery Mind + Highest Possible Will Save = WIN!)

Will No Fail=58
Will Save=45, Failure 60%, 36% with slippery mind (not that useful)
Will Save=49, Failure 40%, 16% with slippery Mind

16% Failure is MUCH better than 60% Failure. If that means failure every 5 mins, you have a high enough Will Save.

If you fail only once every 5 mins, the Harper pin will let you run around as if you never fail.
You need to reduce your failures enough the you rarely get held past the use of the Harper pin.

Also note that an Int rogue should be running around in stealth, which means not that many attempts should be made on you. I may be biased towards thinking my Will Saves nearly auto-succeed because I use stealth to prevent failures. The math is still good (you have many times less failures with slippery mind, Will Save is very important).

If you go back to the main forums where I complained about U22 bugs, you will find some players telling me I was a "one trick pony" or that I didn't know how to play a rogue properly because I used stealth. Here is yet another example of why stealth is so important. The best rogues will use stealth because it is the most effective way to play this character.

Your rogue will NOT be tanking the boss, so it is unfair to compare the DC's needed for a proper tank. I believe we are all talking about pesky casters on the way to the end fight. Use that PL ioun stone if you need it for the boss.

I can say for certain that I don't perceive any problems with Will saves, with my play style, and Will = 48 (+ Slippery Mind + Greater Harper Pin). For U23, I Will have Will=50 with Wis=8 starting, and only a +8 Wis item.

If I perceive a problem in U23, I can drop Int or Con by 2 (or 1 each) and boost my will save by 3. U23 even has a +11 Wis/Int/Cha item. A Will Save as high as 55-56 is obtainable if you fit this item into your build and sacrifice 6 character build points.


Some of you might have noticed that you are getting dazed ALOT in fleshmaker. The target Will DC seems to be in the 60's. I don't think there is a good way for a pure rogue to build to this high of a DC. Fortunately, equipping a pale lavendar ioun stone will absorb these spells with only 1 charge per spell.

Bring you PL ioun stone to fleshmaker!

[levy1964]

I'm currently a third life Dwarf Rogue level 14(Past lives wizard and sorcerer). My stats are 15/28/31/32/15/13 including ship buffs. With +6 resistance bonus and GH from planar gird, my total will save is +17(compared to fort 27 and reflex 31). I also have +2 to saves vs. spells(from being a dwarf) and slippery mind. I notice I'm failing a lot of saves against hold monster, fear effects, etc. Is there some easy way to boost my will saves? Should I just get a +wis item and possibly Iron Will and suck it up? Or will my will saves suck no matter what I do?

u can easy boost will, just craft item with Resistance (Enchantment) [+6] (lvl5) need 50arcane lvl or some1 who can craft unbound (99arcane), also can get PL from bard this give +6 will on Ench and illusion (3PL)

Enchntment spell spec. in CC

ps. if u look on ur death "ohh--Lag, mah !@$%ing hold again, greater command..." yes mostly death becouse ur will save suck, this is is real important save, much important then reflex. so boost it :D

http://ddowiki.com/page/Enchantment
http://ddowiki.com/page/Illusion_(school)

[nokowi]

u can easy boost will, just craft item with Resistance (Enchantment) [+6] (lvl5) need 50arcane lvl or some1 who can craft unbound (99arcane), also can get PL from bard this give +6 will on Ench and illusion (3PL)

Enchntment spell spec. in CC

ps. if u look on ur death "ohh--Lag, mah !@$%ing hold again, greater command..." yes mostly death becouse ur will save suck, this is is real important save, much important then reflex. so boost it :D

http://ddowiki.com/page/Enchantment
http://ddowiki.com/page/Illusion_(school)

I also have 3 Bard past lives. That could be why I am perceiving my will saves to be sufficient.