U23 Divine Grace

[Corino]

On the Livestream U23 Preview today, Devs confirmed that Divine Grace will not be changed in U23, but is slotted for some type of change in U24 or U25.

[Silverleafeon]

Don't get used to it being around, its on its way out...
(2 + (3 * pally level)) will be the new version last time I checked.

[Corino]

That was proposed, but there was never a final decision to my knowledge.

[cru121]

I've listened to the vid as well. As I understood it, they won't make it for U23 (planned for next week), but it should be ready for one of the minor U23.x updates.

[slarden]

The proposed formula is non-sensical as it effectively ignores charisma in splashes and doesn't scale as the level cap increases, but it sounds like the decision is final.

As I understand it - it will be available in the next patch or two - so before U24 most likely.

[slarden]

That was proposed, but there was never a final decision to my knowledge.

It's final.

[Silverleafeon]

I can confirm that it is still coming.
Expect it in one of the patches for update 23.
They ran out of coding time, and perhaps wanted everyone to have a bit more time to prepare for it.

Don't make any new lives depending upon this, it is just a matter of time.

If you want big Divine Grace Saves, you can always take a half a dozen Pally levels, it scales dramatically thanks to the Player's Council feedback about the formula. I interviewed various people about potential Pally Cha scores, trying to make sure that a mostly Pally build would not be hindered by it. Sev was very willing to adjust the numbers upward.


Pally 2 ~ 8 {allowing up to a score of 26 Cha to count}
Pally 3 ~ 11 {allowing up to a score of 32 Cha to count}
Pally 4 ~ 14 {allowing up to a score of 38 Cha to count}
Pally 5 ~ 17 {allowing up to a score of 44 Cha to count}
Pally 6 ~ 20 {allowing up to a score of 50 Cha to count}
Pally 7 ~ 23 {allowing up to a score of 56 Cha to count}
Pally 8 ~ 26 {allowing up to a score of 62 Cha to count}
Pally 9 ~ 29 {allowing up to a score of 68 Cha to count}
Pally 10 ~ 32 {allowing up to a score of 74 Cha to count}
Pally 20 ~ 62 {allowing up to a score of 134 Cha to count}

[TPICKRELL]

I can confirm that it is still coming.
Expect it in one of the patches for update 23.
They ran out of coding time, and perhaps wanted everyone to have a bit more time to prepare for it.

Don't make any new lives depending upon this, it is just a matter of time.

If you want big Divine Grace Saves, you can always take a half a dozen Pally levels, it scales dramatically thanks to the Player's Council feedback about the formula. I interviewed various people about potential Pally Cha scores, trying to make sure that a mostly Pally build would not be hindered by it. Sev was very willing to adjust the numbers upward.


Pally 2 ~ 8
Pally 3 ~ 11
Pally 4 ~ 15
Pally 5 ~ 19
Pally 6 ~ 23
Pally 7 ~ 27
Pally 8 ~ 31
Pally 9 ~ 35
Pally 10 ~ 39 {allowing up to a score of 88 Cha to count}

It scales, but your numbers look a little off unless they changed the formula from 2+3*Pally Level:



Charisma

Save Max



1
5



2
8


3
11


4
14


5
17


6
20


7
23


8
26


9
29


10
32


11
35


12
38


13
41


14
44


15
47


16
50


17
53


18
56


19
59


20
62

[Enoach]

This is too bad, I was hoping to have some time on Live to show why I consider the DG change the wrong direction utilizing both my /2 and 20 Paladin. I was hoping to show with real numbers why it would be better to scale back the DCs of Mobs as well as Gear Alternatives and make DG an option of about the same level as Toughness instead of a requirement for specific builds.

Well I'm still looking forward to U23 and I will adapt for the changes to DG. Which is not my only reason to have /2 Pal since I barely break 30 charisma at the moment but he is only a 2nd Lifer and not geared to the teeth.

[Silverleafeon]

It scales, but your numbers look a little off unless they changed the formula from 2+3*Pally Level:

The numbers have not changed to my knowledge, so if the math is off, I do apologize.
LOL, opsay, I added 4 instead of 3, my bad, listening to DDO preview while I typed.
will edit now


Divine Grace
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Paladin Level 2

Description At 2nd level, a Paladin gains a bonus equal to his or her Charisma modifier (if not negative) on all saving throws.

The cap should be {2 + (3*pally level)} = max Charisma modifier bonus allowed.

[slarden]

I can confirm that it is still coming.
Expect it in one of the patches for update 23.
They ran out of coding time, and perhaps wanted everyone to have a bit more time to prepare for it.

Don't make any new lives depending upon this, it is just a matter of time.

If you want big Divine Grace Saves, you can always take a half a dozen Pally levels, it scales dramatically thanks to the Player's Council feedback about the formula. I interviewed various people about potential Pally Cha scores, trying to make sure that a mostly Pally build would not be hindered by it. Sev was very willing to adjust the numbers upward.


Pally 2 ~ 8 {allowing up to a score of 26 Cha to count}
Pally 3 ~ 11 {allowing up to a score of 32 Cha to count}
Pally 4 ~ 14 {allowing up to a score of 38 Cha to count}
Pally 5 ~ 17 {allowing up to a score of 44 Cha to count}
Pally 6 ~ 20 {allowing up to a score of 50 Cha to count}
Pally 7 ~ 23 {allowing up to a score of 56 Cha to count}
Pally 8 ~ 26 {allowing up to a score of 62 Cha to count}
Pally 9 ~ 29 {allowing up to a score of 68 Cha to count}
Pally 10 ~ 32 {allowing up to a score of 74 Cha to count}
Pally 20 ~ 62 {allowing up to a score of 134 Cha to count}

It scales off of level only and not charisma which is why it is a really bad design.

A 26 charisma is obtainable with a starting score of 8, +6 tome, pirate hat (+8 char and +3 insightful), +1 exceptional and ship buffs. A person with a 26 charisma shouldn't get the same bonus as someone with a 60 charisma. It doesn't scale at all with level cap increases which is another failure.

I rerolled but have a friend that said he is quitting if this goes live which may cause me to take a break from the game as well. I don't think anyone should think otherwise - it's definitely going live - the decision is final.

[Zachski]

No, Divine Grace still scales off of Charisma.

It's just that now, only a character with a strong majority of their levels in Paladin can take full advantage of the ability.

Also, if your friend is quitting over a Paladin buff, then your friend really needs to readjust his priorities, as should you.

[slarden]

No, Divine Grace still scales off of Charisma.

It's just that now, only a character with a strong majority of their levels in Paladin can take full advantage of the ability.

Also, if your friend is quitting over a Paladin buff, then your friend really needs to readjust his priorities, as should you.

He did re-adjust his priorities because he didn't want to TR again so he is quitting the game.

You are wrong. A person with a 28 charisma and another person with a 60 charisma get the exact same bonus with 2 level of paladin. This isn't scaling with Charisma - it's capped based on level. The design is awful. If they want to nerf it they should at least nerf it right.

[Zachski]

He did re-adjust his priorities because he didn't want to TR again so he is quitting the game.

You are wrong. A person with a 28 charisma and another person with a 60 charisma get the exact same bonus with 2 level of paladin. This isn't scaling with Charisma - it's capped based on level. The design is awful. If they want to nerf it they should at least nerf it right.

If the charisma cap scaled with charisma, that would defeat the point of the charisma cap.

And, yeah, that's kinda the point of the cap - to make sure that only having 2 levels of paladin doesn't make you as powerful, save-wise, as having 20 levels of paladin.

Because a level 20 paladin with 28 charisma is going to have a LOT less saves than a level 20 paladin with 60 charisma. Ergo, your argument is flawed. It doesn't "entirely" scale with Charisma. It scales with charisma, and is capped by your paladin level. That's the fact.

Imagine taking 2 levels of wizard, but being able to cast those spells at caster level 20.

Or taking 2 levels of rogue and getting the full sneak attack range.

Or taking 2 levels of Bard and getting the max inspire courage.

Or so forth.

Divine Grace is one of the Paladin's greatest strengths, but without the charisma cap, it becomes an easy splash for everyone else.

[grandeibra]

He did re-adjust his priorities because he didn't want to TR again so he is quitting the game. And ah now I realize why you're so strongly against it - it has a real effect on you personally since you're friend has chose to use it as a reason/excuse to leave. Sorry about that, happens every time something is changed/nerfed. Doesn't make a specific nerfix right or wrong



You are wrong. A person with a 28 charisma and another person with a 60 charisma get the exact same bonus with 2 level of paladin.Sure and

A person with a 2 levels of pally and another person with a 9 levels of pally get the exact same bonus with 26 charisma.


This isn't scaling with Charisma - it's capped based on level. The design is awful. If they want to nerf it they should at least nerf it right.Errm he is not wrong. The saves will scale off of both cha and pally levels and both will cap it. That is the whole point and the objective.



Imagine taking 2 levels of wizard, but being able to cast those spells at caster level 20.

Or taking 2 levels of rogue and getting the full sneak attack range.

Or taking 2 levels of Bard and getting the max inspire courage.

Or so forth.

Divine Grace is one of the Paladin's greatest strengths, but without the charisma cap, it becomes an easy splash for everyone else. +1. Exactly that. Very simple.

[slarden]

If the charisma cap scaled with charisma, that would defeat the point of the charisma cap.

And, yeah, that's kinda the point of the cap - to make sure that only having 2 levels of paladin doesn't make you as powerful, save-wise, as having 20 levels of paladin.

Because a level 20 paladin with 28 charisma is going to have a LOT less saves than a level 20 paladin with 60 charisma. Ergo, your argument is flawed. It doesn't "entirely" scale with Charisma. It scales with charisma, and is capped by your paladin level. That's the fact.

Imagine taking 2 levels of wizard, but being able to cast those spells at caster level 20.

Or taking 2 levels of rogue and getting the full sneak attack range.

Or taking 2 levels of Bard and getting the max inspire courage.

Or so forth.

Divine Grace is one of the Paladin's greatest strengths, but without the charisma cap, it becomes an easy splash for everyone else.

Divine grace is given at level 2 per the D&D rules. It was intended as an easy splash.

The argument isn't flawed at all you are just having a difficult time grasping the math. The poorly designed new approach to DG doesn't account for charisma properly. Someone with a 60 charisma shouldn't get the same bonus as someone with a 28 charisma whether it is 2 levels of paladin or 20. Charisma should be part of the formula.

If they wanted to nerf DG they should provide a percentage of the charisma bonus based on level instead of a hard cap that doesn't scale as the level cap increases. It's a bad design.

[slarden]

And ah now I realize why you're so strongly against it - it has a real effect on you personally since you're friend has chose to use it as a reason/excuse to leave. Sorry about that, happens every time something is changed/nerfed. Doesn't make a specific nerfix right or wrong
.

I am against it because the strongest builds in the game don't use 2 paladin so this does nothing to fix balance. The implementation of the nerf is poorly designed. I already TR'd out of the build so it has no impact on me.

[depositbox]

or taking 2 levels of rogue and getting evasion and full trap skills.



ftfy

[Impaqt]

Divine grace is given at level 2 per the D&D rules. It was intended as an easy splash.



And the rules also say that once you multiclass out of paladin you can NEVER go back... and they also say if you willfully commit an evil act, or grossly violate the code of conduct, you lose all paladin spells and abilities.
This happens dozens of times in every quest.

So if you really want to go by PnP... Theres no such thing as the Paladin class in DDO.

[Zachski]

ftfy

Evasion doesn't boost your saves to obscene amounts though.

Also, slarden, it's you who doesn't understand the math.

If a level 2 Paladin has 20 Charisma, they will have the same bonus to saves as a level 20 paladin with 20 charisma.

Now, tell me how that's "entirely level dependent".

Because it isn't.

That's the fact.

Also, fairly certain that Divine Grace wasn't intended as an easy splash, but rather, as an early ability to make Paladins good. Considering the fact that Paladins get the very harsh penalty of "Never being able to take another level in Paladin again" if they multiclass, it's clear that Paladin was never meant to be thrown into a multiclass build. To compensate, it was **** powerful on its own right. Still not as powerful as a Druid or Cleric, but still.

Believe it or not, they didn't build 3.5 around multiclassing. They just gave you the option.

I swear, what is it that gets in some people's heads when they look at an ability gained in the first two levels and automatically think, "Oh, that ability is meant for multiclassing," instead of, "Oh, that ability is to make the class it belongs to more useful early on"?

[depositbox]

Evasion doesn't boost your saves to obscene amounts though.


Neither did any of those silly comparisons you listed, so.

[grandeibra]

Divine grace is given at level 2 per the D&D rules. It was intended as an easy splash.[Yup and it was intended to yield +1 - to +5 or so


The argument isn't flawed at all you are just having a difficult time grasping the math. The poorly designed new approach to DG doesn't account for charisma properly. Someone with a 60 charisma shouldn't get the same bonus as someone with a 28 charisma whether it is 2 levels of paladin or 20. Charisma should be part of the formula.Charisma is part of the formula. Just like pally levels are. You are just just having a diffuclt time grasping the math. BOTH charisma and pally levels increase your bonus and BOTH cap your bouns. Very simple. And very reasonable. You sound bitter for no reason.


If they wanted to nerf DG they should provide a percentage of the charisma bonus based on level instead of a hard cap that doesn't scale as the level cap increases. It's a bad design.Nope. It'just seems a purely selfish (nothing wrong with that) assumptions by you. It's obvious you are upset that superhi charisma toons don't get the full bonus. Wrong assumption. The point of the splash is to get a "minor/decent" benefit - not a superduper hi one. That's why they cap the level and the cha - both. Both increase the bonus and BOTH cap the bonus. If they let it scale with lvl cap the main problem (too big a range of saves for the say mid-90% of all toons) would still exist. Byt capping BOTH by cha and by pally lvl they lessen that range and hence accomplish their intent!

[Zachski]

Neither did any of those silly comparisons you listed, so.

Mmm, fair point.

But then those comparisons were more equivalent to Divine Grace than Evasion and Trap Skills, so my point is still standing.

Not to mention, Evasion doesn't work with anything heavier than light armor (and soon anything heavier than light shields) so you still have to jump through hoops to qualify for it and make it useful.

Current Divine Grace, all you need is high charisma to boost your saves. No restrictions.

The funny thing is, even with the new Divine Grace, unless you're a Sorcerer (bards don't qualify because they can't be Lawful), you'll still gain a lot of benefit out of it - slapping on a charisma item to boost your saves will still be useful.

Non-Paladins who aren't Sorcerers are still going to see some good use out of Divine Grace, as even getting 20 charisma is gonna be an accomplishment, and I've seen people work at getting far less than a +8 additional bonus to their saves.

And even if you are a Sorcerer, +8 to saves is pretty **** good. Maybe not "Loss of two Sorcerer levels" good, but then, I hate splashing on a caster anyways.

Really, for the longest time, people believed that only two levels of Paladin was all you ever needed from the class. This change, combined with all of the other changes Paladin is undergoing, is changing that for the better.

[depositbox]

Mmm, fair point.

But then those comparisons were more equivalent to Divine Grace than Evasion and Trap Skills, so my point is still standing.


Sort of. But Divine Grace gets you full saves from a class feature without needing to take more than 2 levels. The same could be said of rogues, trap skills and evasion. Not much needed for evasion either. Stat, AP, buffs and it becomes useful, adding in past lives and top tier gear makes it more than useful.

[Thrudh]

He did re-adjust his priorities because he didn't want to TR again so he is quitting the game.

You are wrong. A person with a 28 charisma and another person with a 60 charisma get the exact same bonus with 2 level of paladin. This isn't scaling with Charisma - it's capped based on level. The design is awful. If they want to nerf it they should at least nerf it right.

How would you nerf it then? And your friend doesn't HAVE to TR... His DPS is going up 100% and his saves are going down 10%. EVERY MMO has fairly big class changes every year or so, DDO included... if you or he have been here for more than a year, you should know this... Be happy Turbine is wrapping this small nerf near the same update where melee (and paladins in particular) get a huge buff. Most times, in most MMOs, nerfs are just nerfs.

But good luck to your friend if he wants to quit over his melee character getting STRONGER. And good luck to you if you quit because you don't like MMOs making changes... Even though every MMO makes changes. All the time. Sorry you wasted so much time playing a MMO before you figured that out.

The rest of us will adjust easily.

[slarden]

[Yup and it was intended to yield +1 - to +5 or so

Charisma is part of the formula. Just like pally levels are. You are just just having a diffuclt time grasping the math. BOTH charisma and pally levels increase your bonus and BOTH cap your bouns. Very simple. And very reasonable. You sound bitter for no reason.



You are just attempting to label emotion where there is none by using words like "bitter" because your argument isn't sound. I've already rerolled my character so it has no impact on me. I just see this as a bad decision on Turbine's part.

For one thing the +1 to +5 argument again shows lack of basic math because DG went up but so did DCs. DG scaled somewhat effectively with enemy DCs, but enemy and trap DCS have risen slightly faster than Charisma. It's no different than a dex build or int/insightful reflex build that can a high save that scaled with DCs.

Prior to U14 I could get a no-fail save with Divine Grace easily. On live getting a no fail save with DG requires max charisma and a significant investment in gear and Epic Destiny twists. Generally it's not worth it so the only time I would bother is going into the U21 EE raids with my healer that had to do alot of running around the map. My caster without DG could also achieve a no fail save there, but I don't bother sacrificing the DPS twists because positioning works fine and I can control my movements more rather than responding to party needs.

Getting to a no-fail save was never a crutch for my healer, it simply allowed me to respond quicker without worrying about missing a save. I re-rolled out of my healer build so that is no longer an issue.

The new formula is a failure because someone with a 28 charisma and 2 levels of paladin gets the exact same bonus as someone with a 60 charisma and 2 levels of paladin. The new formula is a cap based on level and not something based on the combination of charisma and level as it should be. Someone with a 60 charisma should get a higher bonus from DG with levels of paladin than someone with a 28 charisma.

[slarden]

How would you nerf it then?

roundup (min (1, (2 + pal level)/8) * Charisma modifier)

This formula rewards more than a min investment in charisma and paladin levels and scales effectively as the level cap is increased. By level 6 it provides the full benefit of DG.

[slarden]

And your friend doesn't HAVE to TR... His DPS is going up 100% and his saves are going down 10%. EVERY MMO has fairly big class changes every year or so, DDO included... if you or he have been here for more than a year, you should know this... Be happy Turbine is wrapping this small nerf near the same update where melee (and paladins in particular) get a huge buff. Most times, in most MMOs, nerfs are just nerfs.

.

He is a sorc bladeforged 16 sorc / 2 pal/ 2 monk. He spent money on bladeforged and a +1 heart so he could take a useful feat at level 1 and then the rules were changed on him.

I rerolled, but I get why he is frustrated by this. I wouldn't quit the game over it myself, but without the saves from DG this build is sacrificing DPS and isn't getting the intended benefit.

[Zachski]

The new formula is a failure because someone with a 28 charisma and 2 levels of paladin gets the exact same bonus as someone with a 60 charisma and 2 levels of paladin. The new formula is a cap based on level and not something based on the combination of charisma and level as it should be. Someone with a 60 charisma should get a higher bonus from DG with levels of paladin than someone with a 28 charisma.

And someone with 28 charisma and 2 levels of Paladin gets the exact same bonus as someone with 28 charisma and 20 levels of paladin.

You keep saying that it is a failure, but it is working exactly as intended.

Believe it or not, you aren't supposed to no-fail all saves everywhere unless you work hard for it.

And in this case, part of working hard for it involves taking more levels of paladin, or even better, being a complete Paladin.

People keep talking about how a Paladin's advantage should be survivability and not damage, but when it comes down to the brass tacks, they object to anything that gives Paladin the sole advantage in survivability.

If you want DG to be good, roll full paladin. Otherwise, deal with it like all of the characters that don't have DG.

Also, your friend was bladeforged. He has no business quitting over a nerf to DG when he's still the most overpowered race in the entire game. That is the behavior of a spoiled child.

[slarden]

And someone with 28 charisma and 2 levels of Paladin gets the exact same bonus as someone with 28 charisma and 20 levels of paladin.

You keep saying that it is a failure, but it is working exactly as intended.

Believe it or not, you aren't supposed to no-fail all saves everywhere unless you work hard for it.

And in this case, part of working hard for it involves taking more levels of paladin, or even better, being a complete Paladin.

People keep talking about how a Paladin's advantage should be survivability and not damage, but when it comes down to the brass tacks, they object to anything that gives Paladin the sole advantage in survivability.

If you want DG to be good, roll full paladin. Otherwise, deal with it like all of the characters that don't have DG.

Also, your friend was bladeforged. He has no business quitting over a nerf to DG when he's still the most overpowered race in the entire game. That is the behavior of a spoiled child.

Being insulting doesn't make your point any more correct - it just gives us insight into your character.

Your response is ridiculous. He paid for bladeforged and paid for a +1 heart and now the rules were changed on him and it does nothing to fix game balance at all. His complaint is legitimate.

As for the formula for the DG nerf, it can be easily corrected and I showed an example formula how it can be done. 2 levels of paladin shouldn't be an easy button for someone with a min charisma. DG should scale based on paladin levels and charisma. This also fixes the problem that it doesn't scale correctly when the level cap is increased.

It is very easy for Turibine to fix the formula so it factors both paladin levels and charisma.

[Stoner81]

Pally 2 ~ 8 {allowing up to a score of 26 Cha to count}
Pally 3 ~ 11 {allowing up to a score of 32 Cha to count}
Pally 4 ~ 14 {allowing up to a score of 38 Cha to count}
Pally 5 ~ 17 {allowing up to a score of 44 Cha to count}
Pally 6 ~ 20 {allowing up to a score of 50 Cha to count}
Pally 7 ~ 23 {allowing up to a score of 56 Cha to count}
Pally 8 ~ 26 {allowing up to a score of 62 Cha to count}
Pally 9 ~ 29 {allowing up to a score of 68 Cha to count}
Pally 10 ~ 32 {allowing up to a score of 74 Cha to count}
Pally 20 ~ 62 {allowing up to a score of 134 Cha to count}

Assuming my maths is right then my FvS is going to lose at least +3 from saves and that is not counting ship buffs, store pots, Yugo pots etc. I would have to lose another 2 FvS levels to get those saves back which would cost me some heavy duty spells... it's beyond a stupid idea this, the DEVS made the **** content which requires high saves and now they are nerfing the main thing which allows us to boost saves! Utter stupidity devs seriously!

Stoner81.

[Xianio]

Your response is ridiculous. He paid for bladeforged and paid for a +1 heart and now the rules were changed on him and it does nothing to fix game balance at all. His complaint is legitimate.

This is never a valid complaint in an MMO. Changes, ones you agree with or don't agree with happen all the time. It's part of the very nature of MMO's. If your friend cannot deal with the fact that something could change at any time with no warning in an MMO then he shouldn't be playing them. There are an entire catalog of games designed for people who like to pay for something then have it remain 100% the same - single player games. He should stick to those.

Further, it really doesn't matter if you don't see how this helps improve the health of the game in the immediate sense. The ability to provide sky-high saves to a huge number of class combinations is distinctly harmful to game design. If the difference between saves of a non-Paladin and a Paladin splash is between 15-20 then balancing encounters around both cases is nearly impossible -- this is particularly true when Evasion is added to the mix.

All told, 'generally' reducing saves across the board makes it much easier to create encounters that allow for both paladin splashes and non-paladin splashes to have a fighting chance at making saves. This increases the viability and variety of class combinations that can be effective in high-difficulty scenarios.

It's better for game health, so it should stay. Even if that means your friend's munchkin toon isn't as dominate as it once was.

PS: If the difference between being viable in the hardest content and not being viable in the hardest content is determined -3 to saves imagine trying to balance that so that characters who aren't getting an enormous +cha to saves can participate. It just doesn't make a lick of sense to try and balance a game that way.

[slarden]

This is never a valid complaint in an MMO. Changes, ones you agree with or don't agree with happen all the time. It's part of the very nature of MMO's. If your friend cannot deal with the fact that something could change at any time with no warning in an MMO then he shouldn't be playing them. There are an entire catalog of games designed for people who like to pay for something then have it remain 100% the same - single player games. He should stick to those.

Further, it really doesn't matter if you don't see how this helps improve the health of the game in the immediate sense. The ability to provide sky-high saves to a huge number of class combinations is distinctly harmful to game design. If the difference between saves of a non-Paladin and a Paladin splash is between 15-20 then balancing encounters around both cases is nearly impossible -- this is particularly true when Evasion is added to the mix.

All told, 'generally' reducing saves across the board makes it much easier to create encounters that allow for both paladin splashes and non-paladin splashes to have a fighting chance at making saves. This increases the viability and variety of class combinations that can be effective in high-difficulty scenarios.

It's better for game health, so it should stay. Even if that means your friend's munchkin toon isn't as dominate as it once was.

PS: If the difference between being viable in the hardest content and not being viable in the hardest content is determined -3 to saves imagine trying to balance that so that characters who aren't getting an enormous +cha to saves can participate. It just doesn't make a lick of sense to try and balance a game that way.

Now responding with your sock puppet account...

His toon was never really dominant - Sorc 16/2/2 was dominant before the enhancement pass (before bladeforged could TR) and since then has been a build that performs well in EE, but is not dominant. None of the dominant builds today are max charisma builds using 2 pal.

My point isn't so much that DG is nerfed, it's that this particular way of nerfing it is bad because it doesn't use charisma in the formula. The proposed formula gives +8 saves for 28 charisma and +8 saves for 60 charisma. The formula should apply a percentage of the charisma modifier based on paladin levels rather than cap it.

[DarthCaedus]

I am not in favor of the changes that will be made to Divine Grace. What is the point in making Paladins super beings and weakening people that splash paladin

Yuck.

[grandeibra]

Your response is ridiculous. He paid for bladeforged and paid for a +1 heart and now the rules were changed on him and it does nothing to fix game balance at all. His complaint is legitimate. For the umpteenth time it DOES help game balance. It makes a greater portion of the toons have saves closer together. That is the objective and the solution works for that.


As for the formula for the DG nerf, it can be easily corrected and I showed an example formula how it can be done. No. Your solution would work less well for the purpose of reducing saves for hi save/low inv builds. The whole point is to cap it by EACH/BOTH cha and pally and make EACH increase saves only up to that cap.

Yours doesn't. It's not capped by cha and hence there is theoretically no upper limit.


2 levels of paladin shouldn't be an easy button for someone with a min charisma. Agreed. And Turbine's solution fixes this as well as ez button for toons who have "max" cha for/from their primary class as well.


DG should scale based on paladin levels and charisma. Turbine's solution does this.


This also fixes the problem that it doesn't scale correctly when the level cap is increased.Turbine's solution does this perfectly since the whole point is less extra saves for low investment. Whether the toon is lvl 22 or 30 shouldn't matter.


It is very easy for Turibine to fix the formula so it factors both paladin levels and charisma.Yup. Again. That's why they chose the solution they did since it does exactly that. Both increase the saves, both cap saves when "too" low. You need to invest in BOTH to get the huge reward.

You seem to be trying to fix something else and since you keep making false claims (as pointed out in this very post) I really don't see what you are after apart from keeping your friend in the game (THAT reason I can respect btw).

[slarden]

For the umpteenth time it DOES help game balance. It makes a greater portion of the toons have saves closer together. That is the objective and the solution works for that.

No. Your solution would work less well for the purpose of reducing saves for hi save/low inv builds. The whole point is to cap it by EACH/BOTH cha and pally and make EACH increase saves only up to that cap.

Yours doesn't. It's not capped by cha and hence there is theoretically no upper limit.

Agreed. And Turbine's solution fixes this as well as ez button for toons who have "max" cha for/from their primary class as well.

Turbine's solution does this.

Turbine's solution does this perfectly since the whole point is less extra saves for low investment. Whether the toon is lvl 22 or 30 shouldn't matter.

Yup. Again. That's why they chose the solution they did since it does exactly that. Both increase the saves, both cap saves when "too" low. You need to invest in BOTH to get the huge reward.

You seem to be trying to fix something else and since you keep making false claims (as pointed out in this very post) I really don't see what you are after apart from keeping your friend in the game (THAT reason I can respect btw).

Nope that is wrong.

If they want to nerf DG based on paladin levels it should do so based on a percentage of the DG bonus rather than a cap by level.

The proposed formula allows someone starting with an 8 charisma to get the +8 bonus easily (gear tomes and ship buffs) while someone with a 60 charisma ends up with the same exact bonus. A fix to the formula is in order and I hope the devs adjust it.

The other problem is that when the level cap increases enemy DCs go up - but DG stays the same. Having DG tied to charisma eliminates this problem and still provides the beneift reduction for splashes the devs want.

[Zachski]

Except DG does scale with and is capped by Charisma.

A level 2 Paladin with 20 Charisma has the same DG bonus as a level 20 Paladin with 20 charisma.

[grandeibra]

Nope that is wrong.

If they want to nerf DG based on paladin levels it should do so based on a percentage of the DG bonus rather than a cap by level.

The proposed formula allows someone starting with an 8 charisma to get the +8 bonus easily (gear tomes and ship buffs) while someone with a 60 charisma ends up with the same exact bonus. A fix to the formula is in order and I hope the devs adjust it.Once again: wrong for what? They want to nerf DG based on pally levels AND charisma. And their formula does. Yours doesn't.

Yes someone with 60 cha vs 26 cha gets the same +8 bonus with only 2 pally levels.
And someone with 20 lvls vs 2 lvls of pally gets the same +8 bonus with only 26 cha

This BY DESIGN and the whole purpose. Scale it AND cap it for both in the same way. Do you still not see this? You keep arguing for cha to not cap when the whole purpose is to cap BOTH cha and pally lvls. One needs to invest heavily in both to get the superb saves bonus. By design. So why would they adjust it to anything close to your formula that does not accomplish what they intend for?


The other problem is that when the level cap increases enemy DCs go up - but DG stays the same. Having DG tied to charisma eliminates this problem and still provides the beneift reduction for splashes the devs want.Again. This is not a problem but the whole design. As level cap increases enemy DCs go up AND toons' saves go up naturally every other level plus more/powerful gear/feats/EDs etc.

If the pallycha combo is not capped once again those splash toons will move further ahead of other toons the more levels we get, which is exactly what Turbine is trying to fix. That is in fact the whole problem and the reason for the fix. At lvl 10 noone had astronomical extras from chapally splash so it was ok. Level cap is what forced this change/nerfix. Again: to move all but the most extreme (read heavy inv in pally AND in cha) toons closer together for saves.

[Inoukchuk]

roundup (min (1, (2 + pal level)/8) * Charisma modifier)

This formula rewards more than a min investment in charisma and paladin levels and scales effectively as the level cap is increased. By level 6 it provides the full benefit of DG.

So, assuming +20 char, the Turbine formula gives -/8/11/14/17/20 (caps at cha bonus of +20) and your formula provides -/10/13/15/18/20. And with only +10 bonus the comparison is -/8/10/10/10/10 vs -/5/7/8/9/10, so your formula hurts the player unless you have a very high charisma, and is guaranteed to hurt low level characters, particularly pure paladins. Furthermore, a paladin splash suffers from a permanent penalty of only getting half their charisma bonus, even if it's only a small bonus. I think your solution would anger a lot more people than Turbines.

And really, you seem to be missing the point. The point is to provide a barrier to the most egregious abuses of a 2 (up to 6) paladin splash, like say people that get a +20 to saves. I honestly think their solution is pretty fair, especially when coupled with changes that introduced MRR and rewards heavier armors. Sure, your friend might want to TR/LR now, but that is probably a good idea with new rules out anyway. I know my reaction, having JUST TR'd an 18/2 sorc. was "well, I may not splash sorc again if I play one... that's cool too!"

[slarden]

So, assuming +20 char, the Turbine formula gives -/8/11/14/17/20 (caps at cha bonus of +20) and your formula provides -/10/13/15/18/20. And with only +10 bonus the comparison is -/8/10/10/10/10 vs -/5/7/8/9/10, so your formula hurts the player unless you have a very high charisma, and is guaranteed to hurt low level characters, particularly pure paladins. Furthermore, a paladin splash suffers from a permanent penalty of only getting half their charisma bonus, even if it's only a small bonus. I think your solution would anger a lot more people than Turbines.

And really, you seem to be missing the point. The point is to provide a barrier to the most egregious abuses of a 2 (up to 6) paladin splash, like say people that get a +20 to saves. I honestly think their solution is pretty fair, especially when coupled with changes that introduced MRR and rewards heavier armors. Sure, your friend might want to TR/LR now, but that is probably a good idea with new rules out anyway. I know my reaction, having JUST TR'd an 18/2 sorc. was "well, I may not splash sorc again if I play one... that's cool too!"

All they did was remove a few build options from the game that weren't overpowered or broken.

It's not cool, I have a friend that already stopped playing the game because the decision is now final. I will be playing less as a side effect.

You pointed out the problem precisely - cha dumping toons will still get the same exact bonus with 2 levels of paladin and those with a high charisma get a massive nerf - for a feat based on charisma.

Turbine is going to do what Turbine is going to do - it's their game - their consequences. The only real impact for me is I will be playing a less and spending less because it drove a friend away. No big deal, I will find other ways to spend the money and have just as much fun.

[Zachski]

You pointed out the problem precisely - cha dumping toons will still get the same exact bonus with 2 levels of paladin and those with a high charisma get a massive nerf - for a feat based on charisma.


It is literally no more of a problem than the fact that a level 20 paladin will have the same bonus as a level 2 Paladin if they both have 28 charisma.

Which is to say...

It is not a problem in the least.

You want a better Divine Grace? Take more levels of Paladin AND increase your Charisma. Simple as that.

Believe me, you don't need it. A +8 bonus is more than a toon without 2 levels of Paladin is going to get!

Might as well start complaining that none of the other classes get a Monk's excellent save growth just by taking two levels of Monk.

[slarden]

It is literally no more of a problem than the fact that a level 20 paladin will have the same bonus as a level 2 Paladin if they both have 28 charisma.

Which is to say...

It is not a problem in the least.

You want a better Divine Grace? Take more levels of Paladin AND increase your Charisma. Simple as that.

Believe me, you don't need it. A +8 bonus is more than a toon without 2 levels of Paladin is going to get!

Might as well start complaining that none of the other classes get a Monk's excellent save growth just by taking two levels of Monk.

A high charisma 20 pal and low charisma 20 pal have very different saves as it should be - divine grace is a feat based on charisma

I have no skin in the game - I already TRd out of my 2 pal splash long ago. Others will do the same or leave the game. It's just an absolutely ridiculous nerf considering this does nothing to improve game balance.

The most powerful bullds don't use 2 pal. The builds that are high-char with 2 pal aren't overpowered builds.

So this effectively accomplishes nothing except to drive away players. It's a bad decision, but not the first or the worst Turbine's made.

[grandeibra]

All they did was remove a few build options from the game that weren't overpowered or broken.

It's not cool, I have a friend that already stopped playing the game because the decision is now final. I will be playing less as a side effect.

You pointed out the problem precisely - cha dumping toons will still get the same exact bonus with 2 levels of paladin and those with a high charisma get a massive nerf - for a feat based on charisma.

Turbine is going to do what Turbine is going to do - it's their game - their consequences. The only real impact for me is I will be playing a less and spending less because it drove a friend away. No big deal, I will find other ways to spend the money and have just as much fun.haha you're like a broken record and still refuse to acknowledge all the real reasons for why they made the change

They did a whole lot more than affect a few non-OP builds. They narrowed the active range for saves for the mid-90% of all toons. Something that greatly affects their ability to make quests interesting/challenging for all of us and not deadly/cakewalk for too many

And for I think the 7th time (me and several others have pointed it out...) in this thread: Yes a toon with medium cha gets same bonus as a 70cha toon with 2 lvls of pally. And a lowly 2 lvls of pally gets a toon the same bonus as a 20 lvl pally if both have 26 cha. That's the whole point. Scale and cap by both cha/pally lvls independently to make a smaller range of saves for most toons.

And yes we've heard of your friend already. Each and every nerfix makes some people leave, and others happy. Part of MMO. I've known literally 100s of players who have left. I feel your friend's pain but So what? And tbh unless he was close to leaving anyway he will find a new way to make his toon fun/powerful. Most of us always do

It's not the nerfix that is a bad; it is your understanding of the reasons behind the decision that is bad.

[Impaqt]

I just cant understand how someone can say its not that powerful and its not that big of a deal....

and then continue to say how everyone is going to quit because it is getting changed.

o.O

[grandeibra]

I just cant understand how someone can say its not that powerful and its not that big of a deal....

and then continue to say how everyone is going to quit because it is getting changed.

o.Oexactly impact. It's just a childish temper tantrum imho :)

Now if someone were to show that the change is actually detrimental to DDO and supply ample evidence of it I would be all ears.

[Vellrad]

If they really have to cap it it should be 2+paladin level*3+epic level+1.25.
So there's increase at epic levels.

[Raiderone]

Now responding with your sock puppet account...

His toon was never really dominant - Sorc 16/2/2 was dominant before the enhancement pass (before bladeforged could TR) and since then has been a build that performs well in EE, but is not dominant. None of the dominant builds today are max charisma builds using 2 pal.

My point isn't so much that DG is nerfed, it's that this particular way of nerfing it is bad because it doesn't use charisma in the formula. The proposed formula gives +8 saves for 28 charisma and +8 saves for 60 charisma. The formula should apply a percentage of the charisma modifier based on paladin levels rather than cap it.

What you want is for the formula to hurt more for lower charisma modifier, which would then hurt more players. Basically It's go ahead and nerf DG but put in a formula that helps my toon (or friends toon).
When the change is to compensate for the ridiculous amount of saves on pure Charisma based toons with only 2 levels Pally.

How about this change for DG, no Epic levels of Charisma can increase DG. Only Heroic Levels apply including items and all bonuses. Maybe max 38 Charisma.
My point is that DG was fine during Heroic levels but Epic Destiny's and Charisma increases in tomes, enhancements and such have made DG overpowered.

Like others have mentioned nerfs happen in MMO's get over it. i have three or four toons which will be impacted by DG... Getting +3 Hearts would be nice....

[Impaqt]

If they really have to cap it it should be 2+paladin level*3+epic level+1.25.
So there's increase at epic levels.


Well, no.. Because Epic levels are NOT paladin levels...

However, if you are in a Divine Destiny Sphere, those levels should count as Paladin levels for Divine Grace.

[slarden]

What you want is for the formula to hurt more for lower charisma modifier, which would then hurt more players. Basically It's go ahead and nerf DG but put in a formula that helps my toon (or friends toon).
When the change is to compensate for the ridiculous amount of saves on pure Charisma based toons with only 2 levels Pally.

How about this change for DG, no Epic levels of Charisma can increase DG. Only Heroic Levels apply including items and all bonuses. Maybe max 38 Charisma.
My point is that DG was fine during Heroic levels but Epic Destiny's and Charisma increases in tomes, enhancements and such have made DG overpowered.

Like others have mentioned nerfs happen in MMO's get over it. i have three or four toons which will be impacted by DG... Getting +3 Hearts would be nice....

The nerf doesn't hurt me because I already TRd out of 2 pal build over a month ago. It only hurts me in the sense that my friend and likely others will leave, but honestly spending less time and money on an mmo probably isn't a bad thing.

I don't like the nerf because it only hurts a few builds - builds that aren't overpowered - so it seems pointless to break builds.

I have nothing to get over other than voice my opinion with my time and spending patterns. I am disappointed to lose someone that I quest with over a stupid nerf - and it simply proves to me once and for all that Turbine doesn't get the balance issues at all. I don't have a problem with nerf, but turbine is nerfing legit builds that aren't overpowered while allowing exploit after exploit to continue.

I don't agree dg was fine previously and is somehow broken now. It is the opposite. Prior to U14 a max char and 2 pal levels easily gave me a no fail save (fail only on a 1). That is not the case now - I need a significant epic destiny and max gear options to get there now.

[slarden]

Well, no.. Because Epic levels are NOT paladin levels...

However, if you are in a Divine Destiny Sphere, those levels should count as Paladin levels for Divine Grace.

To me this would be a great solution.

[elg582]

Not that I have a dog in this fight (my only paladin is pure); I see the cons to the change (however minor), but I don't see the pros.

That is to say, I see how this change hurts some players, but I don't see how it benefits anyone, and that seems like the hallmark of a Bad Idea.

For example, my pure paladin can have an insanely high CHA before hitting the cap. So high, in fact, that it is not technically possible given the current state of the game, or in any conceivable near-future update. I get no benefit from this.

A couple of guildies, who run 18 sorc/2 pali builds, will be radically affected, to the extent that the entire purpose of those characters is cast aside.

And yes, I've been through changes that ruined characters, too, but unlike some people here who seem to get some satisfaction out of it happening to someone else, I empathize and think that there should be more justification than, "the 10 pali splashes are jealous that the 2 pali splashes get just as much effect out of one pali ability, even though they miss out on several other pali abilities."

So all they are doing is limiting the effectiveness of certain builds; do they wonder why no one plays paladin-dilettante helfs?