The Lord of Blades & His Lore as it Affects Characters

[Banegrivm]

I know the Lord of Blades is Lawful Evil. I'm trying to figure out how in the hell or more to the point WHY did Turbine allow for a lawful evil entity to have paladins? It doesn't make any sense at all. I'm thinking about playing a favored soul that's a warforged but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. It's just not making any sense to me.

[Seikojin]

They should be blackguards or deathknights. Meh.

[Scrabbler]

I know the Lord of Blades is Lawful Evil.
You know he's Lawful Evil, but everyone else doesn't. If you walk up to him and ask he'll say he's Good, and there's no Know Alignment spell in this game, so...

It is pretty weak writing that the "iconic" (and most overpowered) Paladin race belongs to Lobster though!

[Banegrivm]

That's just it. Evil gods don't actually have paladins. Paladins have to follow a lawful good God. That's why I'm wondering what the deal is here. It just doesn't make any sense at all. The devs said way back in the day that they didn't want us to be able to play evil characters, hence why their are none in the game, so now what is this? It makes zero sense at all and seems to break their own lore.

[dunklezhan]

That's just it. Evil gods don't actually have paladins. Paladins have to follow a lawful good God. That's why I'm wondering what the deal is here. It just doesn't make any sense at all. The devs said way back in the day that they didn't want us to be able to play evil characters, hence why their are none in the game, so now what is this? It makes zero sense at all and seems to break their own lore.

You're right for every edition except 4th... which other than being yet another footnote in the 'how wrong can we get DnD' horror that was 4th Ed (YVMV), is probably where the Devs had moved for reference material by the time they introduced the Lord of Blades, and certainly by the time of Bladeforged iconics.

I agree with you.

[CThruTheEgo]

That's just it. Evil gods don't actually have paladins. Paladins have to follow a lawful good God. That's why I'm wondering what the deal is here. It just doesn't make any sense at all. The devs said way back in the day that they didn't want us to be able to play evil characters, hence why their are none in the game, so now what is this? It makes zero sense at all and seems to break their own lore.

Well the Knights of Takhisis from the Dragonlance setting would be an example of an order of evil paladins. Unless I have my lore wrong (which is a possibility since it's been a long time), they served a deity, were granted spell casting ability by that deity, and operated under a strict code of honor and loyalty. That sure sounds like a paladin to me. So the concept of an evil paladin is not without precedent.

The Lord of Blades is the deity associated with the warforged faith, chosen by warforged clerics, favored souls, and paladins. The bladeforged are created by the Lord of Blades and, being a warrior deity, I can't imagine he'd be creating an army of clerics or favored souls, so he creates an army of paladins. That's the best explanation I can offer anyway. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge of Eberron lore could provide a better one.

[Banegrivm]

Only that STILL doesn't make sense. Paladins are lawful good, pure of heart, and their deity gives them their abilities as they have proven that they are worthy of them through their good heart and deeds. An evil deity would never do that since they are evil. I'm wondering if the devs are just throwing out their lore because "hey WE think this is cool". I really want to play a favored soul but as someone that doesn't like playing evil characters I just can't get into it. A dev response would be awesome to explain this. Oh and as far as what you said about Takhisis, she was lawful evil which would explain why the knights were honorable. Their are lots of lawful evil characters and arch types that believed in order and even honor, but a paladin that isn't.

[CThruTheEgo]

I just looked up the Knights of Takhisis and they were not technically paladins. There were 3 orders in the knighthood, one of which were warriors (fighter class I assume), another was multiclassed with cleric, and the third was multiclassed with sorc or wiz. So not technically paladins, although the first order was granted some special (i.e. divine) abilities by Takhisis.


Only that STILL doesn't make sense. Paladins are lawful good, pure of heart, and their deity gives them their abilities as they have proven that they are worthy of them through their good heart and deeds. An evil deity would never do that since they are evil.

Why not? Why wouldn't an evil deity grant abilities to a loyal follower who has proven worthy of them through their evil heart and deeds, assuming those deeds serve to further the deity's own evil ends?

My biggest problem with bladeforged (and all other iconics) is starting at level 15 and having to go do lower level quests to get the favor for your bank and inventory slots. :D

[Banegrivm]

Because that isn't what a paladin is by definition. Paladins were holy warriors that were pure in heart, thought and deed, and the fact that they were pure and good is what made them paladins in the first place. Back on topic, I'd still love to hear Turbine's reasoning for what they've done here. It makes no sense at all whatsoever.

[Alternative]

how about this (humor post):

The Lord of Blades created an army of Bladeforged warriors. He uses a spear, but he read in the manual that his favored weapon is a greatsword, so he gave his warriors greatswords, and unleashed them upon Eberron. The ignorant peasant folk of Eberron first saw an army of Bladeforged warriors wielding greatswords and divine magic of their god, the Lord of Blades, and called them his paladins. The name stayed.

On a serious note, I agree it kinda silly that all created paladins of an evil god have to be lawful good. But there you go, 3 out of 4 iconic races have mismatched starting class (evil paladins, int based clerics, and cha focused fighters)

[Holybird]

So drow paladins worshipping Vulkoor is O.K? *Cause I bet that Vulkoor ain't Lawful Good

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

It is all about perspective.
From the Lord of Blades perspective he is a lawful good deity. He and the entirety of the warforged race were wronged by house Cannith and everyone else that used them in the last war *pretty much everyone* They were wronged as they were treated as slaves, wronged as they were forced to fight and wronged that when they were granted their freedom, some nations made them into indentured servants. The Lord of Blades is simply doing what he see's as right just as the silver flame does. Silver Flame wipes out all outsiders and undead. The Lord of Blades wipes out all fleshbags. From his perspective he is doing the world a favor getting rid of these arrogant beastlike creatures that use everything for their own end. Followers of the Lord of Blades view his perspective as the correct one and thus feel as they are more aligned to be Lawful Good as well. The big line in the Ebberon Campaign Setting is,
"Alignments are relative gauges of a character or creature's
viewpoint, and not absolute barometers
of affiliation and action; nothing is exactly as it seems.
Alignments are blurred, so that it's possible to encounter an
evil silver dragon or a good vampire. Traditionally goodaligned
creatures may wind up opposed to the heroes, while
well-known agents of evil might provide assistance when
it's least expected."
Page 8.

[psykopeta]

It is all about perspective.
From the Lord of Blades perspective he is a lawful good deity. He and the entirety of the warforged race were wronged by house Cannith and everyone else that used them in the last war *pretty much everyone* They were wronged as they were treated as slaves, wronged as they were forced to fight and wronged that when they were granted their freedom, some nations made them into indentured servants. The Lord of Blades is simply doing what he see's as right just as the silver flame does. Silver Flame wipes out all outsiders and undead. The Lord of Blades wipes out all fleshbags. From his perspective he is doing the world a favor getting rid of these arrogant beastlike creatures that use everything for their own end. Followers of the Lord of Blades view his perspective as the correct one and thus feel as they are more aligned to be Lawful Good as well. The big line in the Ebberon Campaign Setting is,
"Alignments are relative gauges of a character or creature's
viewpoint, and not absolute barometers
of affiliation and action; nothing is exactly as it seems.
Alignments are blurred, so that it's possible to encounter an
evil silver dragon or a good vampire. Traditionally goodaligned
creatures may wind up opposed to the heroes, while
well-known agents of evil might provide assistance when
it's least expected."
Page 8.

if u look carefully, u will see it only affects to races

if you look at pally says something like once u are evil, u lose all ur pally stuff (unless u went certain pre, which i won't remember lol)

the main trouble with alignment in ddo is: it's static, only can be changed with the ddo store, doesn't matter if i kill the npc i was supposed to save in a quest, etc

also, me thinks u are confusing lawful with good, lawful is general perception of law/rules/society and his behaviour towards it
good is the personal perception of the previous

so u can be good while killing other cult's worshippers (silver flame telling u start a crusade, i mean kill emerald claw guys)

for being evil, the char must feel himself as evil, iirc it was a prereq

don't u remember that chaotic neutral was the most common allignment? cause players ignore the law and like killing/stealing/whatever to get loots, but they aren't aligned towards helping others or caring oneself

btw lawful evil was quite easy to mantain, too

[Nayus]

It is all about perspective.
From the Lord of Blades perspective he is a lawful good deity. He and the entirety of the warforged race were wronged by house Cannith and everyone else that used them in the last war *pretty much everyone* They were wronged as they were treated as slaves, wronged as they were forced to fight and wronged that when they were granted their freedom, some nations made them into indentured servants. The Lord of Blades is simply doing what he see's as right just as the silver flame does. Silver Flame wipes out all outsiders and undead. The Lord of Blades wipes out all fleshbags. From his perspective he is doing the world a favor getting rid of these arrogant beastlike creatures that use everything for their own end. Followers of the Lord of Blades view his perspective as the correct one and thus feel as they are more aligned to be Lawful Good as well. The big line in the Ebberon Campaign Setting is,
"Alignments are relative gauges of a character or creature's
viewpoint, and not absolute barometers
of affiliation and action; nothing is exactly as it seems.
Alignments are blurred, so that it's possible to encounter an
evil silver dragon or a good vampire. Traditionally goodaligned
creatures may wind up opposed to the heroes, while
well-known agents of evil might provide assistance when
it's least expected."
Page 8.

Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssss.

I don't understand who typed the Lord of Blades as "Lawful Evil", he clearly has a noble cause which he fully dedicates himself to and all his followers are ready to lay down their lives for their cause heartfeltly. The only way I could interpret the Lord of Blades as an evil character would be if he betrayed the warforged race but that's not what happens in the raid.

From the Warforged perspect, House Cannith Artificers are the Evil ones.
Similar to how Silver Flame Paladins have slain inumerous innocent people, due to religious differences.

[Fedora1]

Warforged should have been fighters, with some racial enhancements for repairing (self healing) reflecting their creation by a divine entity.

Purple Dragon Knights should have been Paladins, not fighters with high (useless) charisma.

[CThruTheEgo]

Warforged should have been fighters, with some racial enhancements for repairing (self healing) reflecting their creation by a divine entity.

Purple Dragon Knights should have been Paladins, not fighters with high (useless) charisma.

Totally agree with this. And why elven clerics are int based, I have no idea.

[Nayus]

Totally agree with this. And why elven clerics are int based, I have no idea.
They were thinking so hard about how to become wiser that they actually became starter.

[lyrecono]

I know the Lord of Blades is Lawful Evil. I'm trying to figure out how in the hell or more to the point WHY did Turbine allow for a lawful evil entity to have paladins? It doesn't make any sense at all. I'm thinking about playing a favored soul that's a warforged but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. It's just not making any sense to me.

WOW!
Your biggest mistake in the openings post, the lob is not a diety (lv 2 fighter, lv 3 arty, lv 5 jugernaut in the dragon mag and later books), he is merely revered as a god.
Same for lady Vol, thats not a god (ess) either but again is revered as one (the blood of vol cult)
No gods actively walks the material plane nor do they bestow/take away spells.
Divine spells come from believing in ones self/another, in eberron
set aside your biased look on things, maybe formed by dragonlance, forgoten realms etc? there were good reasons why some people loved the Eberron setting over others ones. alignment was just a minor one.
Also, alignments are blurred
Please (re)read the (superior 3,5) Eberron players handbook. especialy the opening, alignment and religion parts.

Keith Baker wisely blurred alignments for better story telling.
the alignment system has been a thorn in the sides for many dm's, too much of a childisch representation of morality, one man's good is the other man's evil.
by now you should have noticed that you got help of black and blue dragons, vampires, giants etc, creatures normaly deemed evil.

[Hobgoblin]

Because that isn't what a paladin is by definition. Paladins were holy warriors that were pure in heart, thought and deed, and the fact that they were pure and good is what made them paladins in the first place. Back on topic, I'd still love to hear Turbine's reasoning for what they've done here. It makes no sense at all whatsoever.

As dragon ball z told us - u just have to be pure. they don't define what pure is.....


i could see a disciplined, honorable warrior that is pure evil. it never says pure good.... :)

The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spellcaster.

so you could say you are a paladin of evil:

The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of evil and order, and is a divine spellcaster. If you disobey your gods commandments you can be stripped of all your powers untill you perform an act of atonement

hob

[Heinrich]

Only that STILL doesn't make sense. Paladins are lawful good, pure of heart, and their deity gives them their abilities as they have proven that they are worthy of them through their good heart and deeds. An evil deity would never do that since they are evil. I'm wondering if the devs are just throwing out their lore because "hey WE think this is cool". I really want to play a favored soul but as someone that doesn't like playing evil characters I just can't get into it. A dev response would be awesome to explain this. Oh and as far as what you said about Takhisis, she was lawful evil which would explain why the knights were honorable. Their are lots of lawful evil characters and arch types that believed in order and even honor, but a paladin that isn't.

Well lets look at pallys... they hate evil...law breakers... and murders beware right? Its the concept of lawful good doesnt mean lawful nice.... lord of blades wants to free wf from fleshlings oppression(many people hate warforged in this setting due to the fact they dont trust them or that they take jobs away from fleshy since they never sleep or get tired)...he deems humans and other flesh races as evil for their miss deeds...so in turbines eyes they are trying to put the concept of being lawful good in 1st person.... pallys dont see themself as evil...yes the lord of blades in many pnp groups is evil...but could that just be a general miss conception from most the races? I understand that many books and lore says they attack people that wander too close to them in the mournlands, could be hiding something rather than just killing for being fleshys...idk I guess its all up to you... in the long run pnp was never strickly black and white...unless your dm was a pally..(little joke there, since people sense of right and wrong differ greatly its hard to paint one as good or evil since it all comes from veiw points) one mans evil is another mans good.

[Xahtep]

The Church of the Silver Flame has a lawfull evil leader you can check that if you dont belive me, its in the 3.5 ed sourcebook. Might not be their god like in the LoB case, still their pallys follow their "pope" orders without questions believing that they are for the greater good.

They kill, destroy other churches temples. ( the quest from inquisitor Gnomon might not be a good example since he is trying to break it from the inside), they purged the land from shifters just because. AND their pallys still can use divine spellcasting despite doing evil stuff.

[Khatzhas]

Yep. As people have pointed out, clerics in Eberron are not restricted by their deities' alignments. As LeonAureo points out, one of the cardinals of the Silver Flame is Evil. He probably still believes in the basic ideals of the Flame: he is still a cleric able to draw on its power. But he is willing to go to extremes, and further himself using that power, which places him in the Evil alignment.

The Lycanthrope Purge that the Silver Flame carried out had pretty good reasons behind it, but there were zealots who went way too far with it (such as targetting Shifters). They believed in the Flame, they believed that they were doing Good, but they'd still go "Ping!" under a Detect Evil spell.

Look at the alignments of some of the leaders of Nations. The Good Queen of Aundair wants to restart the war, while the Evil leader of Karrnath is one of the staunchest proponents of peace. King Kaius is Evil because he is willing to kill, torture and other evil acts in order to protect Karrnath and the peace.

The Lord of Blades and Lady Vol are two examples of heads of religion that don't live up to the ideals of their worshippers. As a paladin of the LoB, a warforged would promote equality, further the interests of the WF race, and strive to be a shining example of the race's potential to others. All very LG stuff. The Lord of Blades himself is not the same as the ideal that is the centre of the religion. Eberron gods don't walk the world or dwell in a specific plane like the FR ones do.

In short, yes the devs do know the rules and the lore, apparently better than many of the people here. :p

[waryJerry]

Though I think a lot of what I've read about in the Eberron campaign is interesting, I still have a hard time taking the the question of Eberron "lore" seriously. However well they've done, the whole campaign was just something made up by another group of sweaty gamers. That is, it's an ad hoc campaign setting rather than even a fictional world. I just don't get how people can immerse themselves in the "lore" as opposed to the actual games we're playing.

[Khatzhas]

Though I think a lot of what I've read about in the Eberron campaign is interesting, I still have a hard time taking the the question of Eberron "lore" seriously. However well they've done, the whole campaign was just something made up by another group of sweaty gamers. That is, it's an ad hoc campaign setting rather than even a fictional world. I just don't get how people can immerse themselves in the "lore" as opposed to the actual games we're playing.
It was made up by someone who makes D&D content professionally. Just like Ed Greenwood, Gary Gygax etc. It simply managed to be chosen from many competing settings rather than getting grandfathered in due to history. I don't think that there are any D&D fictional worlds that weren't made up by gamers, so I'm not quite sure what your meaning was there.
Eberron has stayed quite true to its creator's vision, and he regularly posts about it. Its lore is generally consistent (although 4th ed D&D caused a few adjustments. :-). Its nowhere near as ad hoc as the Forgotten Realms for example, which due to its "all published material is canon" rule has been added to by everyone who wrote a novel set there as well as the official WotC products.

Having said that, it has quite a different take on many concepts, not all of which are well received. In FR, the Gods are Hellenic in nature, able to be assaulted by mortals, occasionally walking the world in manifest form, and humping author avatars. In Eberron, they are a matter of pure faith: most people believe the Devourer causes storms and Arawei good crops, but no one can prove it, talk to her in person, or visit her house.
Likewise alignment and motivations are less clear-cut in Eberron.

Generally people will have a preference for one world or the other. Particularly for roleplayers, immersing ourselves in the lore of the Realms or Eberron rather than just game mechanics can be as interesting. Different strokes for different folks.

[lyrecono]

Though I think a lot of what I've read about in the Eberron campaign is interesting, I still have a hard time taking the the question of Eberron "lore" seriously. However well they've done, the whole campaign was just something made up by another group of sweaty gamers. That is, it's an ad hoc campaign setting rather than even a fictional world. I just don't get how people can immerse themselves in the "lore" as opposed to the actual games we're playing.

is this thread still allive? fascinating.....
The lore is nothing more then a method of setting things in motion.
though i have to admit that due to the "blured" allignment system in eberon situations felt more mature and layered then most of the d&d settings i have played, though the gm might have something to do with that.
Eberon goes a little beyond: me pali, you scales not shinny, me smash conveniently collor coded dragon.
it might not have as many rulebooks, let allone all those godawefull fanfiction books that spawned a million xxXdrizzlecloneXxx in the harbor....
But it's still regarded by many as a lot beter written then the mary sue charracters in the vanilla realms.