Thunder-forged comparsions

[Cloista]

I'm looking at starting to put together TF weapons for my TWF Ranger (keeping a fully upgraded Pinion for manyshot) and I'm trying to work out the best combinations going forward, as well as how they compare to what I'm wielding.

I currently have an un-upgraded Balizarde and a Frostbite blade (which will be first to go). I'm trying to work out which tier TF will then obsolete the Balizarde.


Option I'm looking at: base-Balizarde + T2 TF Scimitar (1st degree burns/dragons edge), or:T2 TF Scimitar (1st degree burns/dragons edge) + T1 TF Scimi (Touch of Flames) initially. Would the 2nd combo be better than the first? Mid term the T1 TF will have Wrath of Flames added as T2. Mortal fear for T3 for both is the longer term goal.

So, would the T2/T1 TF combo out damage the base-Balizarde/T2 combo? In the short-term would even 2 Tier 1 TF out damage a Balizarde/T1 combo?

If it makes a difference currently run mostly in FotW, but with the U23 changes also considering switching to Shadowdancer. DC is currently locked but I will unlock it eventually.

[JamesNiels]

I'm looking at starting to put together TF weapons for my TWF Ranger (keeping a fully upgraded Pinion for manyshot) and I'm trying to work out the best combinations going forward, as well as how they compare to what I'm wielding.

I currently have an un-upgraded Balizarde and a Frostbite blade (which will be first to go). I'm trying to work out which tier TF will then obsolete the Balizarde.


Option I'm looking at: base-Balizarde + T2 TF Scimitar (1st degree burns/dragons edge), or:T2 TF Scimitar (1st degree burns/dragons edge) + T1 TF Scimi (Touch of Flames) initially. Would the 2nd combo be better than the first? Mid term the T1 TF will have Wrath of Flames added as T2. Mortal fear for T3 for both is the longer term goal.

So, would the T2/T1 TF combo out damage the base-Balizarde/T2 combo? In the short-term would even 2 Tier 1 TF out damage a Balizarde/T1 combo?

If it makes a difference currently run mostly in FotW, but with the U23 changes also considering switching to Shadowdancer. DC is currently locked but I will unlock it eventually.

I did some calculations comparing the tier 1 TF with balizarde.
Assumptions: 0% fortification on target. U have IC: slashing. Ur dex (or str) is 50.

Balizarde: 2.5 (1d8) + 7 = 11.25 + 7. Adding dex mod (20) makes 38.25 on average. This damage occurs on 2-14. 13× 38.25 = 497.25.
Critting on 15-20 for 3x damage: 6 × 3 × 38.25 = 688.50
Bleed damage 2 - 16 averages at 9 per hit on 2-20. 19 × 9 = 171.
Add these 3 totals to get 1356.75 damage on average in 20 swings.

TF scimitar: 4 (1d6) + 10 makes 572 on 2-14.
Double damage on 15-20 makes 528.
Fire damage is 665.
Total average: 1765.

So this means that on targets that are vulnerable to bleeding and fire, the TF does 30% more damage. Note that the rapier gets more of its damage from crits over normal hits. While the TF damage on crits is about equal. This means that the rapier will perform more unwell on mobs with fortification compared to the TF.

The rapier may be better against devils and other mobs immune to fire, but in general the TF will do better, especially against undead, which is the most common enemy.

P.S. personally i would not take wrath of flames, its dps is quite bad even when mobs do not save, which they will do a lot since the dc is 'only' 50. Its also a reflex save and thus evadable. Note that u can get similar damage (aoe) from the meteoric rubies. They hit for around 500 on epics and have a chance of knocking enemies prone. The paralyze might be a better option for u, as melees can never have enough damage mitigation in EE's.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I think a couple of decisions to make are:

Boss beater or trash weapon?
Single target or AOE effects?

You can make a pretty versatile weapon, but specialising for a particular purpose might give better results..

First degree burns may not be the best choice for a weapon you are mainly using against trash, because it takes a while for a large amount of vulnerability to build up. If you are keen on a first degree burns weapon and are TWF, you probably only need one of them even for boss fights.

One thing I can recommend is making a bow which has AOE effects on it, like wrath of flames and an AOE damage augment. It's hugely effective against packs of trash mobs when using manyshot and IPS.

Anyway, if you are running the raids a lot you don't really have to worry too much about which lower tier weapons to get, because they are relatively inexpensive to make and don't require phlogistons. It's really only important that you have it just right for when you put tier 3 properties on them.

I hope this helps you work out what to do, good luck.

Thanks.

[Cloista-motu]

I did some calculations comparing the tier 1 TF with balizarde.
Assumptions: 0% fortification on target. U have IC: slashing. Ur dex (or str) is 50.

Balizarde: 2.5 (1d8) + 7 = 11.25 + 7. Adding dex mod (20) makes 38.25 on average. This damage occurs on 2-14. 13× 38.25 = 497.25.
Critting on 15-20 for 3x damage: 6 × 3 × 38.25 = 688.50
Bleed damage 2 - 16 averages at 9 per hit on 2-20. 19 × 9 = 171.
Add these 3 totals to get 1356.75 damage on average in 20 swings.

TF scimitar: 4 (1d6) + 10 makes 572 on 2-14.
Double damage on 15-20 makes 528.
Fire damage is 665.
Total average: 1765.

So this means that on targets that are vulnerable to bleeding and fire, the TF does 30% more damage. Note that the rapier gets more of its damage from crits over normal hits. While the TF damage on crits is about equal. This means that the rapier will perform more unwell on mobs with fortification compared to the TF.

The rapier may be better against devils and other mobs immune to fire, but in general the TF will do better, especially against undead, which is the most common enemy.

P.S. personally i would not take wrath of flames, its dps is quite bad even when mobs do not save, which they will do a lot since the dc is 'only' 50. Its also a reflex save and thus evadable. Note that u can get similar damage (aoe) from the meteoric rubies. They hit for around 500 on epics and have a chance of knocking enemies prone. The paralyze might be a better option for u, as melees can never have enough damage mitigation in EE's.


Are those numbers for just a Tier 1 Thunderforged?

Taking this info in hand, I'm considering, 3 weapons: a universal ToF/Dragon's Edge weapon, a 1stDB/WoF boss beater and a Blinding/Paralyzing Fear Trash weapon.

I'm not running the raids often enough as my guild raid nights don't meet my play times very well and there aren't a huge amount of pugs for them on Cannith either.

[SquidMaster]

Are those numbers for just a Tier 1 Thunderforged?

Taking this info in hand, I'm considering, 3 weapons: a universal ToF/Dragon's Edge weapon, a 1stDB/WoF boss beater and a Blinding/Paralyzing Fear Trash weapon.

I'm not running the raids often enough as my guild raid nights don't meet my play times very well and there aren't a huge amount of pugs for them on Cannith either.

For universal ToF is good, but consider blinding fear if you have any sneak attack. That will boost your dmg more and will give you some dmg avoidance (the down side is that you have to run after some mobs).

For boss beater WoF is, at best, meh. Try Dragon´s edge, it got On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding Damage (most ppl don´t realize that), and you can bypass some bosses fort.

I tryed paralyzing fear, it´s not that good (as any proc of 5% isn´t). Maybe your universal is your best choice for trash also.

Have fun

[Cloista]

For universal ToF is good, but consider blinding fear if you have any sneak attack. That will boost your dmg more and will give you some dmg avoidance (the down side is that you have to run after some mobs).

For boss beater WoF is, at best, meh. Try Dragon´s edge, it got On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding Damage (most ppl don´t realize that), and you can bypass some bosses fort.

I tryed paralyzing fear, it´s not that good (as any proc of 5% isn´t). Maybe your universal is your best choice for trash also.

Have fun

Is the on crit damage from Dragon's Edge better on it's own than WoF's damage? I'll have it atleast on one weapon for the fort bypass, it'sthe other hand that I'm thinking about. I'm considering then a 1DB/DE boss beater swap in, that ToF/DE universal, then a BF/DE trash beater for the blinding proc.

[Grailhawk]

I did some calculations comparing the tier 1 TF with balizarde.
Assumptions: 0% fortification on target. U have IC: slashing. Ur dex (or str) is 50.

Balizarde: 2.5 (1d8) + 7 = 11.25 + 7. Adding dex mod (20) makes 38.25 on average. This damage occurs on 2-14. 13× 38.25 = 497.25.
Critting on 15-20 for 3x damage: 6 × 3 × 38.25 = 688.50
Bleed damage 2 - 16 averages at 9 per hit on 2-20. 19 × 9 = 171.
Add these 3 totals to get 1356.75 damage on average in 20 swings.

TF scimitar: 4 (1d6) + 10 makes 572 on 2-14.
Double damage on 15-20 makes 528.
Fire damage is 665.
Total average: 1765.

So this means that on targets that are vulnerable to bleeding and fire, the TF does 30% more damage. Note that the rapier gets more of its damage from crits over normal hits. While the TF damage on crits is about equal. This means that the rapier will perform more unwell on mobs with fortification compared to the TF.

The rapier may be better against devils and other mobs immune to fire, but in general the TF will do better, especially against undead, which is the most common enemy.

P.S. personally i would not take wrath of flames, its dps is quite bad even when mobs do not save, which they will do a lot since the dc is 'only' 50. Its also a reflex save and thus evadable. Note that u can get similar damage (aoe) from the meteoric rubies. They hit for around 500 on epics and have a chance of knocking enemies prone. The paralyze might be a better option for u, as melees can never have enough damage mitigation in EE's.


So I agree with process but I thing your out come (though more then likely right) is biased. Balizarde has a better crit profile this means that as his damage goes up it will do better your example keeps damage very low IMO. My ranger runs around with a +44 to damage that does not come from stats so in your example my ranger would be doing 2.5[1d8] + 71



10 Deadly
02 Rams
08 FE
04 Tempest
05 Power Attack
04 Claw Set
01 Profaine
01 Ambidexterity
06 Fruy
02 Past Life: Monk
(U23 will add +13 from Epic Litany and Growing Strom the cool down will be short enough IMO to just count it)


Upgraded Balizarde beats Touch of Flames at +69, un upgraded Balizarde beats Touch of Flames at +89, Now this was done with out seeker factored in which also favors balizarde and lowers these numbers down a tad.

With seeker 6 you get +63 and +83, with seeker 10 you get +59 and +79, at seeker 21 (10 item 5 ex item 6 ship buff) +48, and +68

Note numbers don't count the weapons base pulse so when I say +69 Balizarde would be 2.5[1d8] + 77 on the details sheet.

[Krelar]

Is the on crit damage from Dragon's Edge better on it's own than WoF's damage? I'll have it atleast on one weapon for the fort bypass, it'sthe other hand that I'm thinking about. I'm considering then a 1DB/DE boss beater swap in, that ToF/DE universal, then a BF/DE trash beater for the blinding proc.

WoF is 5% chance of 228-380 damage. That works out to an average of 15.2 per hit.

Dragons edge is 33-105 per crit. So 69 damage per crit. So if your crit rate is better than 20% Dragon's edge will do more damage. (17.25 per hit with just a 25% crit rate)

[Grailhawk]

WoF is 5% chance of 228-380 damage. That works out to an average of 15.2 per hit.

Dragons edge is 33-105 per crit. So 69 damage per crit. So if your crit rate is better than 20% Dragon's edge will do more damage. (17.25 per hit with just a 25% crit rate)

Wrath o Flames also has a save for half damage if they save its only 7.6 per hit. So as long as you crit more then 19-20 you will be better of with Dragon's Edge.

[Wipey]

Citw rapier is kinda specific weapon with not such clear "answer" because saves, Good luck, Dodge and PRR on it are quite good.


So, would the T2/T1 TF combo out damage the base-Balizarde/T2 combo?

I would say no, unless you have Claw set.

In the short-term would even 2 Tier 1 TF out damage a Balizarde/T1 combo?
Nope, that + 4 Artifact from Prowess ( for both weapons ) pulls Balizarde combo slightly ahead.

I would stay with Balizarde main hand + Tier 1 > Tier 2 ( Touch of Flames/Dragon Edge ) + Balizarde off hand > Touch of Flames/Wrath of Flames + Touch of Flames/Dragon Edge.
Although Wrath of Flames versus Dragon Edge damage is not clear either. For the rapier, 23/hit for Dragon Edge, 15/hit for Wrath of Flames ( and it's aoe so usually would hit 2+mobs, 50 reflex is not that bad ).
Even purple for Meteoric Ruby ( that's something like ~ 20 damage / hit + aoe knockdown ).
In any case, have to have Dragon Edge on 1 weapon.

Mortal Fear on main hand eventually. Devotion in red ( off hand if possible, so you can have damage augment in main hand ) , Heal in colorless.

@Grail : What Fury 6 might be in your + dmg breakdown please ?

EDIT : Oh one more thing, if you have points in Elven tree by chance, going with same type of weapon might be better. Rapiers+Longbow.

[Grailhawk]

@Grail : What Fury 6 might be in your + dmg breakdown please ?

Fury of the Wild core give +1 damage per core. If you run LD you can replace it with +5 Advancing Blows.