Knight of the Sword- WSS Paladin/monk/Fighter

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Getting ready to reincarnate and was thinking it's time for a paladin life for the 1.05% healing amp, as well as to test out the new changes to the enhancement trees.

Currently, the plan is a 15/3/2 paladin/monk/fighter
15 Paladin provides zeal and holy sword. I'll miss out on the lvl 9 spells, but so be it for now.
3 monk provides 2 feats, fists of light, and access to grandmaster stances (haste +10% doublestrike)
2 fighter provides 2 more feats.

Reason to go WSS and not unarmed is that in it's current build, Holy sword doesn't effect the crit range/

stats: +5 supreme tome
16-> level ups here
14
16
10
10
14

feats:
1F) PA, wf:slash, stunning blow-will switch to dodge@20
3) twf
5M) WSS
6) Adept of Forms
9) Imp. Crit Piercing
12F) Master of forms, Imp. TWF
14M) Stunning fist-will switch to deflect arrows @ 20
15M) Fists of Light, Greater TWF
18) Grandmaster of forms
21) Overwhelming critical
24) emp. healing
26) Perfect TWF
27) ? not sure
28) ? not sure


Enhancements:
KotC- ~40pts, the revamp eliminates the need for cleave feats!, so in here we'll be grabbing, cleaves, exalted smite, divine might, 30% healing amp, Divine sacrifice, 1 rank holy retribution(for smite recharge), sealed life(maybe)
Human: 17 pts, 30% healing amp, stats, damage boost
Sacred Defender- 8 pts, stance + 15PRR/MRR(total 25PRR/MRR), 3 lay of hands(great emergency heal)
Shintao: 8 pts, 10% offhand strike, 10% healing amp.

This leaves ~7 points to play around with. maybe +3 saves in SD, or earth strike from shintao, +3 dodge... Wait and see what vanguard has to offer for non SB toons too.

by the time I hit 20, this toon should have:
33% sustainable double strike(10% windstance, 10% zeal, 10% Divine crusader, 3% past life)
Dual wielding Oathblades at first, a +8 5[1d10] 11-20x3 weapon
321% healing amp(1.3 human, 1.3 paladin, 1.1 monk, 1.1 item, 1.3 item, 1.1 ED)
~135 positive spell power. 8AP+22heal+90 item+15 guild

Epic Destinies:
Since this build is an Iconic PL, which destiny I'm in won't affect my karma for ER, so I've got a lot more freedom to test out the other ED's, though I plan to spend 26 and up in Divine Crusader, as well as max out Unyielding sentinel.
For Twists of fate, I'll have 4/2/1.
Dance of flowers is an automatic twist
Energy burst:Fire will be probably be used when in Divine crusader for soloing:
Endless smiting will be twisted occasionally
Cocoon will be twisted when I need more self healing

Could use some recommendations on what twists are best, but I think most of the time Dance of flowers+Energy burst+endless smiting will be sufficient.

[unbongwah]

You realize it could be weeks if not months before U23 changes go live, right? You might be putting the cart before the horse here... :)

I still don't think WSS is worth the two-feat cost, largely because there are no worthy epic longswords after Oathblades, IMHO. I would stick with short swords.

How important is Fists of Light to this build? You may wish to consider pal 15 / rgr 3 / monk 2: the rgr gets you three free feats and access to +10% offhand from Tempest (100% total w/GTWF+Deft Strikes). Pick up PBS+Manyshot+Zen Archery for a decent ranged DPS option. Your 7 remaining heroic feats can go towards Power Atk or Precision, Adept & Master of Forms, ITWF, GTWF, IC:Pierce, and Emp Heal. Not sure how to get the feat progression to work out right, though.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

You realize it could be weeks if not months before U23 changes go live, right? You might be putting the cart before the horse here... :)

I still don't think WSS is worth the two-feat cost, largely because there are no worthy epic longswords after Oathblades, IMHO. I would stick with short swords.

How important is Fists of Light to this build? You may wish to consider pal 15 / rgr 3 / monk 2: the rgr gets you three free feats and access to +10% offhand from Tempest (100% total w/GTWF+Deft Strikes). Pick up PBS+Manyshot+Zen Archery for a decent ranged DPS option. Your 7 remaining heroic feats can go towards Power Atk or Precision, Adept & Master of Forms, ITWF, GTWF, IC:Pierce, and Emp Heal. Not sure how to get the feat progression to work out right, though.

Yeah, I know it's a bit early to be making builds based on U23, but Paladins have been one of my favorite classes in every game I've played(second only to druid)- I'm really excited for them to be viable again.

Fists of light isn't that important for the build, (though healing 3-6/hit will be nice). As for why no ranger, this is a PDK iconic and I really don't feel like spending 1200 TP on this. If I ever do the build as a non-iconic(which I probably will), I'll definitely consider ranger the ranger route you suggested. Would also be a lot easier to level 1-20 than this build.

You have a good point about long swords. It might be worthwhile to switch to short swords(though I'll probably play with long swords first and swap the feats out ~24. Need something to use my feat tokens on. I should hopefully have 2 epic envenomed blades by then as well.

[Caprice]

Meh, there's a long tradition of jumping the gun on these types of builds. I seem to recall at least one giant thread of multiple build ideas forming up at least a month before the big U19 enhancement pass went live. For me the main reason to hold off a bit on Paladin/Monk combinations is to see if & how they retune the armor mitigations. Right now it sounds like heavy/shield mitigation is so strong on Lama that it trivializes most content. If it stays that good then it may make Monk splashes obsolete on any build that isn't otherwise penalized by wearing heavy armor.

I agree that WSS isn't a great investment in the long run (semi-pun semi-intended) but with KotC Paladins being able to bypass the 2 Cleave feats I think it is a lot easier to justify than it used to be. The +3 attack & +2 damage for using one's deity weapon is an okay perk too, although I think it's a pity that Paladins do not get better bonuses specific to their deity weapons (e.g. like in Cleric/FvS Warpriest) that would make WSS more interesting (e.g. via KotC enhancements, or maybe something extra baked into Holy Sword).

IMO the Oathblade long sword is arguably as good as most of the epic short swords and it does not take a lot of effort to acquire. Sure it's no Celestia, but most of us don't have 2 of those laying around ;-). However Oathblade has Keen on it so you could take IC:Piercing rather than Slashing and drop 1 AP into Ninja Spy to allow you to be Centered with short swords and you would have the ability to swap freely between the two as needed or as your gear improves. You would lose crit potential while using other slashing weapons (e.g. Forester's Brush Hook (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Forester%27s_Brush_Hook)s for DR bypass) but the flexibility may be worth it. Since it sounds like you are planning to ER a few times while in this build, you can always start with WSS & Oathblades in the first/early epic leveling life and then drop them on the LR that's included in all ERs if you get better short swords.

Magical Training is okay but you get a lot of healing potential out of Fists of Light, Lay on Hands, and Unyielding Sovereignty and you can conserbe SP by using Cure Wands to top up outside of combat, so unless you are throwing out a lot of emergency in-combat Cures on your group you should be able to make your SP last. I would suggest skipping MT, and if you find yourself having SP issues than you can again try it out on a later ER. If you do take it then you can twist in Endless Faith from Exalted Angel and then the increased Echoes will allow you to recast just about any Paladin spell other than the Rezzes granted by Sacred Defender, but you are a bit cramped on twists already.

I am not convinced that Shuriken Expertise will help that much since DEX is not a major focus on this build, and you are already spread out on Enhancements and may do not want to invest 6 AP into Ninja Spy to get the second DEX% chance for another shuriken throw. If you did want to give yourself a "gimp but not as gimp" ranged option then you could take Shuriken Expertise + Quick Draw + Ninja Spy Core 2 as a "poor Monk's" alternative to a Ranger version's Bow Strength + PBS + Many Shot + Zen Archery. In a side discussion with Unbongwah not long ago I seem to have talked him out of using that feat combination on some other build he had, but I recently included it on a new build idea of my own, so apparently I am a bit on the fence about it.

You might also consider Stunning Blow, although you may have trouble getting it to land on harder content since you do not have a lot of sources of extra DC for it. Since you have Fighter 2 you could eke out a slightly higher DC by investing into Kensei Tactics, but that may not be enough.

So ultimately I would suggest taking Dodge rather than Magical Training @1, and Deflect Arrows rather than Shuriken Expertise @14, but I think that any choice out of Dodge & Mobility, Quick Draw & Shuriken Expertise, or any two of Dodge, Deflect Arrows, and Magical Training should work out decently.

P.S. I tried to tweak your level order to move up ITWF and frontload more of the Monk levels but then I realized that (1) your DEX doesn't get high enough until level 12 due to needing a +3 tome, and (2) this is an Iconic build so the order of everything prior to level 15 is unimportant other than satisfying feat pre-reqs. Silly me.

[Panzermeyer]

I would see this build as not at all dissimilar from this build.

Shoikan-A-Divine-Crusader-Warpriest (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/440115-Shoikan-A-Divine-Crusader-Warpriest)

Which I am having fun running to get through some caster ED and Heroic lives.

Though from the sound of things would definitely work better with U23. Personally I would try and fit in the 2nd Monk level sooner to get Evasion. I would probably try Monk at 3 and take TWF with it and the second at 5th to get WSS. I would be inclined to take the dodge line as well. I personally probably would take Empower Healing earlier.

[Caprice]

Since this is an Iconic build, the order of classes and feats prior to level 15 does not matter. I completely agree that the class order isn't great if you start at level 1 (/4/7) and agree with your general suggestion, although Monk should be the first class due to its having the most skillpoints of the 3 classes here.

Shoikan is a fantastic build and has a similar form but will be very different in its end capabilities because FvS15 and Pld15 are quite different.

[goodspeed]

Yeah, I know it's a bit early to be making builds based on U23, but Paladins have been one of my favorite classes in every game I've played(second only to druid)- I'm really excited for them to be viable again.

Fists of light isn't that important for the build, (though healing 3-6/hit will be nice). As for why no ranger, this is a PDK iconic and I really don't feel like spending 1200 TP on this. If I ever do the build as a non-iconic(which I probably will), I'll definitely consider ranger the ranger route you suggested. Would also be a lot easier to level 1-20 than this build.

You have a good point about long swords. It might be worthwhile to switch to short swords(though I'll probably play with long swords first and swap the feats out ~24. Need something to use my feat tokens on. I should hopefully have 2 epic envenomed blades by then as well.

The build mentioned before is quire viable. Its one of the old phiarn? builds? idk I remember a p name. Of course while the ranged will certainly take a hit with the changes coming, it's still a great way to pump out thousands of dmg in 20 seconds adren or no.

Only thing is I made mine a horc jus cause. But in hindsight id say a human would help quite a bit more with the feat. However if everything works out in changes what with prerequ's and whatnot, feats could loosen up a bit later on. Bladeforged could be a useful choice as well. Anyway, main thing is, the dude can take a blow, and dish it out with a 2hander. 2 weapons shouldn't be a problem especially with rng. Would probably increate the jacked doublestrike even more.

[tsteigner]

I would see this build as not at all dissimilar from this build.

Shoikan-A-Divine-Crusader-Warpriest (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/440115-Shoikan-A-Divine-Crusader-Warpriest)

Which I am having fun running to get through some caster ED and Heroic lives.

Though from the sound of things would definitely work better with U23. Personally I would try and fit in the 2nd Monk level sooner to get Evasion. I would probably try Monk at 3 and take TWF with it and the second at 5th to get WSS. I would be inclined to take the dodge line as well. I personally probably would take Empower Healing earlier.

the build i'm currently running with in following, i also got inspired by the Shoikan build and tryed to come up with a Paladin based one :)
it's quite capable already, and will be even stronger when u23 hits, probaly Change 1 lvl of FvS then to Paladin so you can get 2 lvl 4 Paladin spells and of course Need to Change the enhancements for the new Paladin ones

The ED i will be running in will be DCrusader, but not up to epic again so not able to say how it Plays at higher end, but having fun with it atm :)


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 Lawful Good Drow Female
(14 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 4 Favored Soul \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 397
Spell Points: 724
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 21
Will: 17

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(30 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 30
Dexterity 15 18
Constitution 13 16
Intelligence 11 14
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 16 20

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 2
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 2
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 2
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 2
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 2
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 2
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 6
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 6
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 6
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 6
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 6
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 10
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 10
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 10
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 10
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 10
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 2 17
Bluff 3 13
Concentration 1 34
Diplomacy 3 13
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 13
Heal -1 31
Hide 2 12
Intimidate 3 13
Jump 7 22
Listen -1 10
Move Silently 2 12
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 10
Search 0 12
Spellcraft 4 26
Spot -1 10
Swim 3 18
Tumble n/a 13
Use Magic Device n/a 16

Level 1 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Spellcraft (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Deity) Follower of Vulkoor
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Spell (1): Nightshield
Spell (1): Summon Monster I


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Eagle Claw Attack (Rank 1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Spell (1): Bless
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Spell (1): Lesser Restoration
Spell (1): Lionheart
Spell (1): Protection from Evil
Spell (1): Resistance
Spell (1): Seek Eternal Rest
Spell (1): Virtue
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Sacrifice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Sacrifice (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Sacrifice (Rank 3)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Toughness (Rank 2)


Level 11 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Spellcraft (+4)
Spell (1): Obscuring Mist
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)


Level 12 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Spellcraft (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Spell (1): Shield of Faith
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)


Level 13 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Spellcraft (+4)
Spell (2): Aid
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Burden of Sin (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Burden of Sin (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Strength (Rank 1)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (2): Angelskin
Spell (2): Eagle's Splendor
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (2): Remove Paralysis
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Smite Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Burden of Sin (Rank 3)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Adept of Forms
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Strength (Rank 1)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Sealed Life (Rank 1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Enhancement: Drow - Spell Resistance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Drow - Drow Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Improved Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Epic Spell Power: Fire

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Since this is an Iconic build, the order of classes and feats prior to level 15 does not matter. I completely agree that the class order isn't great if you start at level 1 (/4/7) and agree with your general suggestion, although Monk should be the first class due to its having the most skillpoints of the 3 classes here.

Shoikan is a fantastic build and has a similar form but will be very different in its end capabilities because FvS15 and Pld15 are quite different.

Build order does matter. I have to take lvl1 fighter. In order to take all relevant feats by 18, I need to take Imp. Crit by 9. Which means I need BAB 8 by lvl 9.

Updated OP w/ imp. crit piercing, stunning fist->deflect arrows@20, stunning blow->dodge@20. I really don't think stunning blow will be worth it in epics, and I realized that handrwaps will be better until I get my oathblades/epic envenomed blades

About to TR into this and start leveling it for U23. Thanks for all the help!

[Caprice]

I was referring to Panzermeyer's suggestion to alter the leveling order to get Evasion sooner, which won't matter here because the character is not played at any level below 15. So the leveling order does not matter for playability, just for optimal feat selection, as you suggest.

[Saekee]

Build order does matter. I have to take lvl1 fighter. In order to take all relevant feats by 18, I need to take Imp. Crit by 9. Which means I need BAB 8 by lvl 9.

Updated OP w/ imp. crit piercing, stunning fist->deflect arrows@20, stunning blow->dodge@20. I really don't think stunning blow will be worth it in epics, and I realized that handrwaps will be better until I get my oathblades/epic envenomed blades

About to TR into this and start leveling it for U23. Thanks for all the help!

If you use Celestia in the offhand, its Sunburst and fiery detonation will also proc on the mainhand. Great way to buff your attacks for CC.

The epic mournlode blades are an easy way to put together a weapon with a red and colorless slot if you need it (since the Oathblades do not have augment slots). I have an epic mournlode short sword slotted with devotion and heal (+11, I think) which I use for cocoon. There are better weapons out there, just saying if you need something easy to get. If you have the envenomed blade the red slot is there, but you will probably want the life stealing augment in that specific weapon given its orientation already towards enervation and armor piercing.