Perfect Single Weapon Fighting

[Ykt]

My rogue has capped Shadowdancer, now enough XP to take lvl 26 and the first ED feat but PSWF is not in the list
http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destiny_Feats#Martial_sphere
Tactician, Pierce DR and Skill Focuses are, but that one is missing.
I don't have any of the new SWF feats.
It doesn't have any prerequisite (except having 1 Martial ED capped, like the others), this bug is not listed in the Known Issues (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/150534-Official-Known-Issues), so what am I missing?

http://i.imgur.com/HW9u0wN.png

[CThruTheEgo]

I'm not sure why it's not showing up for you. It did show up for my bard that does have all three SWF feats, so maybe they are a hidden pre-req.

Also, just a note of caution. The feat description specifically states that you gain the increased vorpal threat range while SWF, so I wouldn't expect it to work with any other fighting style (TWF, THF, or crossbow depending on what kind of rogue you are), unless of course the description is incorrect. I don't know if this has ever been tested or not.

[Saekee]

since it is only effective while swf, I can't imagine why someone would take it without the other 3 feats. Maybe it is blocked to protect players.
I assume your rigue is either Staff or TWF? Both would benefit from PTWF's doublestrike

[Ykt]

The release notes don't mention any SWF feat in the prerequisites, just like Perfect THF and Perfect TWF.

[Touriste]

Because it's a regular epic feat and not a destiny feat.

you can get it at level 21, 24 or 27

[Boombastic]

Because it's a regular epic feat and not a destiny feat.

you can get it at level 21, 24 or 27

http://ddowiki.com/page/Perfect_Single_Weapon_Fighting

DDO wiki disagrees and says its an epic destiny feat

[Vargouille]

It does require the first Single Weapon Fighting feat. There's no way to benefit from Perfect Single Weapon Fighting without it, since you wouldn't meet the requirement: "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..."

[Grailhawk]

It does require the first Single Weapon Fighting feat. There's no way to benefit from Perfect Single Weapon Fighting without it, since you wouldn't meet the requirement: "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..."

So why does PTWF not require TWF to get a benefit from, that needs to be corrected with how biased against TWF the current game is.

[Thar]

So why does PTWF not require TWF to get a benefit from, that needs to be corrected with how biased against TWF the current game is.

How is the game biased towards twf?

- requires double the inventory space for weapons
-crafting requires double the ingreadiants and time/raids
- damage output is less due to finessible weapons are approx half the base damage of THf.
- speed of attack for offhand is at most an extra attack per cycle, often less. THF easily out dps's this.
- instakill attacks are for all intents and purposes nerf's and not avaiable endgame with trash having 11,000 hps so off hand benefits from another attack are minimal.
- doesn't apply to feats like whirlwind, cleave, great cleave, etc.

Single weapon easily is just as good with the speed boost and by far surpasses it with bard enhancements with half the effort in obtaining gear for the same feats. THF is still king of DPS. TWF has no niche anymore. it's something you do because you get it for free as a ranger...

Who should be complaining is Sword and board... they can't use SWF and have no good option yet.

[ddorimble]

So why does PTWF not require TWF to get a benefit from, that needs to be corrected with how biased against TWF the current game is.


How is the game biased towards twf?

Someone's got a case of the Mondays.

[Saekee]

It does require the first Single Weapon Fighting feat. There's no way to benefit from Perfect Single Weapon Fighting without it, since you wouldn't meet the requirement: "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..."
Thx for the response!


So why does PTWF not require TWF to get a benefit from, that needs to be corrected with how biased against TWF the current game is.
PTWF adds doublestrike which other styles can use



Single weapon easily is just as good with the speed boost and by far surpasses it with bard enhancements with half the effort in obtaining gear for the same feats. THF is still king of DPS. TWF has no niche anymore. it's something you do because you get it for free as a ranger...

Who should be complaining is Sword and board... they can't use SWF and have no good option yet.

Hi thar, those are fair arguments but would derail the thread.

[Grailhawk]

PTWF adds doublestrike which other styles can use.

Other styles could use Vorpal effects on a 19 as well. If other styles can take PTWF and get a benefit why cant a TWF take PSWF and get the Vorpals on 19 benefit?

[Boombastic]

Other styles could use Vorpal effects on a 19 as well. If other styles can take PTWF and get a benefit why cant a TWF take PSWF and get the Vorpals on 19 benefit?

PSWF only works "when single weapon fighting" as per the feat's description :P thats why

[Saekee]

Other styles could use Vorpal effects on a 19 as well. If other styles can take PTWF and get a benefit why cant a TWF take PSWF and get the Vorpals on 19 benefit?

the vorpals on a 19 or 20 help SWF become balanced in relationship to TWF. I did some rough calculations for a kama-wielding monk with ninja capstone and the TWF comes out ahead, even with SWF getting the vorpal bonuses. The SB are the ones that take SWF to high levels, I think.

[EllisDee37]

So why does PTWF not require TWF to get a benefit from, that needs to be corrected with how biased against TWF the current game is.Just so I'm clear on what you're saying:

The game is biased AGAINST TWF, meaning TWF is treated poorly by the game.
Because of this negative bias, they should ADD a NEW prerequisite to the PTWF feat.

Is this what you're saying?

[ddorimble]

Just so I'm clear on what you're saying:

The game is biased AGAINST TWF, meaning TWF is treated poorly by the game.
Because of this negative bias, they should ADD a NEW prerequisite to the PTWF feat.

Is this what you're saying?

Yeah, he's saying PTWF should be a benefit to only TWF characters, rather than the other fighting styles being able to poach it for 5% Doublestrike. This could be enforced by it requiring TWF (which, as a legitimate TWF character, you will of course already possess). Limiting it to TWFers is somewhat of a relative buff to TWFing (removing 5% Doublestrike from everyone else).

Honestly, I'd rather they just all work only when you're fighting with the appropriate 'style'. I'd totally burn an extra Feat (on Feat-laden characters) on TWFing to be able to poach PTWF again.

[Grailhawk]

Just so I'm clear on what you're saying:

The game is biased AGAINST TWF, meaning TWF is treated poorly by the game.
Because of this negative bias, they should ADD a NEW prerequisite to the PTWF feat.

Is this what you're saying?

Basically yes, but not just because the game is bias. Since none of the other Perfect feat give a benefit to other styles neither should PTWF just to keep things consistent, or they could make it so that any of the fest boost any style they just need to be consistent.

[droid327]

It does require the first Single Weapon Fighting feat. There's no way to benefit from Perfect Single Weapon Fighting without it, since you wouldn't meet the requirement: "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..."

I'm loath to question you about your own game...but that just doesn't feel right. Every other weapon style still works even without the requisite feats. THF get glances. S&B can use defender stances. TWF can use primal avatar boosts. Are you sure SWF without the first great is just "fighting with one weapon" and not true SWF?

Though that being said, I don't know why anyone would take pswf and be in swf without taking the swf feats too, so it may be a moot or difficult to test point.

[Hamlin]

Help me out here. What is the benefit of having your vorpal range increased? I didn't have time to look at all destinies, but other than "vorpal" (which sucks basketballs through drinking straws), what other effects or abilities go off on a vorpal roll?

[Grailhawk]

Help me out here. What is the benefit of having your vorpal range increased? I didn't have time to look at all destinies, but other than "vorpal" (which sucks basketballs through drinking straws), what other effects or abilities go off on a vorpal roll?

There are a lot of on vorpal abilities, the one that jumps out to me as could be crazy good if PSWF works with TWF is Fury Eternal. That said there probably are SWF builds with enough DS that they attack just as fast as TWF meaning SWF gets more Adrenaline uses then TWF now.

[Thar]

So you want to nerf something because you can't have it. not nice.

[EllisDee37]

Basically yes, but not just because the game is bias. Since none of the other Perfect feat give a benefit to other styles neither should PTWF just to keep things consistent, or they could make it so that any of the fest boost any style they just need to be consistent.Perfect THF benefits SWF with a bastard sword or dwarven axe.

[Grailhawk]

So you want to nerf something because you can't have it. not nice.

No I want consistency especial when it comes to combat style.

[Grailhawk]

Perfect THF benefits SWF with a bastard sword or dwarven axe.

I'm ok with that up to a point (they should not be able to use both PSWF and PTHF at the same time) Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes have for a while been "bastard" THF weapons.

[EllisDee37]

I'm ok with that up to a point (they should not be able to use both PSWF and PTHF at the same time) Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes have for a while been "bastard" THF weapons.Yes, but your point is that "Since none of the other Perfect feat give a benefit to other styles neither should PTWF just to keep things consistent." That would not be consistent, because right now on live there is another Perfect feat that gives benefit to another style.

[Grailhawk]

Yes, but your point is that "Since none of the other Perfect feat give a benefit to other styles neither should PTWF just to keep things consistent." That would not be consistent, because right now on live there is another Perfect feat that gives benefit to another style.

So the inconsistency is that TWF can not benefit from 2 Perfect feat and all other styles can either way its inconsistent. I prefer that they make things consistent by only allowing one per style but they can go the other way or leave it as is doesn't change the fact that things are inconsistent.

Another way to see the inconsistency is to see what styles can use which Perfect feat.

PSWF = SWF only
PTHF = THF or S&B
PTWF = THF, SWF, S&B, TWF

who can use what feat is inconsistent.

[Ykt]

It does require the first Single Weapon Fighting feat. There's no way to benefit from Perfect Single Weapon Fighting without it, since you wouldn't meet the requirement: "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..."

http://ddowiki.com/page/Single_Weapon_Fighting


Prerequisite: 2 ranks of Balance

While Single-Weapon Fighting, you gain +10% Combat Style bonus to attack speed. Requires fighting with a single one-handed weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.

This is the base SWF feat and it also mentions "While Single Weapon Fighting, ...".

It seems "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..." means "Requires fighting with a single one-handed weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand."

Just like "Two Weapon Fighting" means "Fighting with two weapons or Handwraps" and "Two Handed Fighting" means "Fighting with a two handed weapon or a Dwarven Axe or a Bastard Sword".

:confused:

[Mernom]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Single_Weapon_Fighting


This is the base SWF feat and it also mentions "While Single Weapon Fighting, ...".

It seems "While Single Weapon Fighting, ..." means "Requires fighting with a single one-handed weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand."

Just like "Two Weapon Fighting" means "Fighting with two weapons or Handwraps" and "Two Handed Fighting" means "Fighting with a two handed weapon or a Dwarven Axe or a Bastard Sword".

:confused:

"Two Handed Fighting" means "Fighting with a two handed weapon or a Dwarven Axe or a Bastard Sword"(while not fighting with 2 weapons).

[EllisDee37]

So the inconsistency is that TWF can not benefit from 2 Perfect feat and all other styles can either way its inconsistent. I prefer that they make things consistent by only allowing one per style but they can go the other way or leave it as is doesn't change the fact that things are inconsistent.

Another way to see the inconsistency is to see what styles can use which Perfect feat.

PSWF = SWF only
PTHF = THF or S&B
PTWF = THF, SWF, S&B, TWF

who can use what feat is inconsistent.Actually, it's:

PSWF = SWF or S&B (swashbuckling bards using a buckler)
PTHF = THF, S&B or SWF (if SWFing with a bastard sword or dwarven axe)
PTWF = THF, SWF, S&B, TWF

All three can be used by multiple styles. Seems pretty consistent to me.

[dgtgtd]

Actually, it's:

PSWF = SWF or S&B (swashbuckling bards using a buckler)
PTHF = THF, S&B or SWF (if SWFing with a bastard sword or dwarven axe)
PTWF = THF, SWF, S&B, TWF

All three can be used by multiple styles. Seems pretty consistent to me.

The point being made, was that PTWF can be used by any fighting style, but those that TWF are only able to benefit from PTWF. This is the type of inconsistency that was being pointed out.

If those that TWF were somehow able to benefit from other styles, or if each "Perfect" style were limited to the fighting style it were named after, then it would be consistent.

[EllisDee37]

The point being made, was that PTWF can be used by any fighting style, but those that TWF are only able to benefit from PTWF. This is the type of inconsistency that was being pointed out.

If those that TWF were somehow able to benefit from other styles, or if each "Perfect" style were limited to the fighting style it were named after, then it would be consistent.Dusting off my memory of this 17-month-old discussion...

My reaction to that ultra-specific inconsistency ranges between "meh" and "good." TWF is also the only style that lets you swing two weapons, so it's probably intentionally designed to be the only style that can't benefit from multiple "Perfect" feats.

[Grailhawk]

Dusting off my memory of this 17-month-old discussion...

My reaction to that ultra-specific inconsistency ranges between "meh" and "good." TWF is also the only style that lets you swing two weapons, so it's probably intentionally designed to be the only style that can't benefit from multiple "Perfect" feats.

The only way that read to me is, you think imbalance is fine and are fine with TWF being weeker/having less options then the other styles. We will never see eye to eye on this issue. Balance in opportunity and power should be a goal in a game like this.

[EllisDee37]

The only way that read to me is, you think imbalance is fine and are fine with TWF being weeker/having less options...because it procs twice as many hits. If you think double the hits having the same power per hit as half the hits is "balanced", we will never see eye to eye on this issue.

You're also missing a pretty huge piece of the puzzle, in that other fighting styles don't get the full effect of PTWF. In fact, they only get a third of the effect. So in a very real sense, PTWF is stronger than two equivalent feats for TWF.

In other words, TWF gets two feats worth of power from PTWF. Imbalance! Nerf PTWF to only give 5% mainhand doublestrike and nothing else, because that's all the other styles get out of it. Balance!

Specifically, PTWF gives 5% doublestrike to other styles, but 15% doublestrike to TWF. (5% to mainhand, 10% to offhand.)

[Grailhawk]

...because it procs twice as many hits.

If you think double the hits having the same power per hit as half the hits is "balanced", we will never see eye to eye on this issue.

So you are saying you think TWF is double as good as the other styles?

If the style are not balanced that needs to be fixed also.

You know this but for most builds TWF is not double he hits, it's only 80 and those hits are for less damage ...

[EllisDee37]

So you are saying you think TWF is double as good as the other styles?

If the style are not balanced that needs to be fixed also.

You know this but for most builds TWF is not double he hits, it's only 80 and those hits are for less damage ...I disagree with the premise that most TWF builds only get 80% offhand. And it's not less damage at all for tier 5 tempests.

I read your argument as exactly equivalent to calling for a nerf to sneak damage because TWF gets twice as many procs. Should sneak attacks only apply to mainhand weapons in the name of balance? Why or why not?

[Grailhawk]

I disagree with the premise that most TWF builds only get 80% offhand. And it's not less damage at all for tier 5 tempests.

I read your argument as exactly equivalent to calling for a nerf to sneak damage because TWF gets twice as many procs. Should sneak attacks only apply to mainhand weapons in the name of balance? Why or why not?

I don't have time right now for more then quick reply from my phone, but if sa on TWF build was unbalanced yes. Given how Rogue are not seam as the 100% undisputed dps champs I don't think it's an issue in the current game but math and videos could convince me it needs to be done.

If the pthf and pswf feasts worse then +7.5% dps increases then they need a bump if there more then those style have more opertunity to boost there dps then TWF they should not have more opertunity that's a kind of imbalance. It's why classes with only 2 trees should have gotten there third tree before class with three trees got class passes.