Has anyone tried maces in epics?

[HastyPudding]

Seems to me it would be pretty beastly. I know it works in heroics, but how about in epics? With all the skeletons in end-game, it would be rather ideal for thunderholme slayers and the raids (and epic orchard is coming up soon, and it has no few numbers of skeletons).

- Swashbuckler adds +2 threat range and +1 critical multipliers for light maces.

- Legendary Dreadnaught has +1 critical multiplier on rolls of 19-20 with tier 5 Devastating Critical.

- Legendary Dreadnaught has +1 threat range with bludgeoning weapons with the tier 6 Pulverizer.

- You also have access to a +15% doublestrike-on-crit with Lightning Mace, also in Legendary Dreadnaught.

- Skullsmasher is a great bludgeoning weapon, with +1 critical muliplier and the ribcracker enhancement, and is compatible with swashbuckler since it's a light mace.

- The bard I want to use this on is also a morninglord, so I can get +4 to-hit/damage with light maces.

Excluding items and feats, that's a whooping +3 threat range and +2 critical multiplier (+3 with skullsmasher). Worthwhile, or are rapiers/short swords still better?

[Varinon]

Seems to me it would be pretty beastly. I know it works in heroics, but how about in epics? With all the skeletons in end-game, it would be rather ideal for thunderholme slayers and the raids (and epic orchard is coming up soon, and it has no few numbers of skeletons).

- Swashbuckler adds +2 threat range and +1 critical multipliers for light maces.

- Legendary Dreadnaught has +1 critical multiplier on rolls of 19-20 with tier 5 Devastating Critical.

- Legendary Dreadnaught has +1 threat range with bludgeoning weapons with the tier 6 Pulverizer.

- You also have access to a +15% doublestrike-on-crit with Lightning Mace, also in Legendary Dreadnaught.

- Skullsmasher is a great bludgeoning weapon, with +1 critical muliplier and the ribcracker enhancement, and is compatible with swashbuckler since it's a light mace.

- The bard I want to use this on is also a morninglord, so I can get +4 to-hit/damage with light maces.

Excluding items and feats, that's a whooping +3 threat range and +2 critical multiplier (+3 with skullsmasher). Worthwhile, or are rapiers/short swords still better?

It wouldn't be bad, but it wouldn't be the best. You're talking about making a light mace into a 17-20/x4 weapon. (+3 threat range, +2 multiplier).

Unfortunatly, using the same ideas the rapier Balizarde reaches (ignoring keen), 18-20/x4. This seems worse, but keen/imp crit is nicer to Balizarde.

With Improved Critical/Keen:
Skullsmasher: 20/x3 Base => 19-20/x3 +Keen => 17-20/x4 +Swashbuckling => 16-20/x4 +Pulverizer
Balizarde: 18-20/x3 Base => 15-20/x3 +Keen => 15-20/x4 +Swashbuckling

Additionally, Devastating Critical can be used with rapiers too, so it hardly counts as a bonus to light maces. Balizarde also has better other properties.

[autochthon]

It wouldn't be bad, but it wouldn't be the best. You're talking about making a light mace into a 17-20/x4 weapon. (+3 threat range, +2 multiplier).

Unfortunatly, using the same ideas the rapier Balizarde reaches (ignoring keen), 18-20/x4. This seems worse, but keen/imp crit is nicer to Balizarde.

With Improved Critical/Keen:
Skullsmasher: 20/x3 Base => 19-20/x3 +Keen => 17-20/x4 +Swashbuckling => 16-20/x4 +Pulverizer
Balizarde: 18-20/x3 Base => 15-20/x3 +Keen => 15-20/x4 +Swashbuckling

Additionally, Devastating Critical can be used with rapiers too, so it hardly counts as a bonus to light maces. Balizarde also has better other properties.


Ways to increase threat range

The Keen (slashing/piercing) or Impact (bludgeoning) weapon prefixes double the weapon's base threat range. A Kukri (base threat range 18-20) with Keen, for example, will have a threat range of 15-20. This does not stack with Improved Critical.
The Improved Critical feat doubles the base threat range for any equipped weapon in a specific category (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning/ranged/thrown). This does not stack with Keen/Impact.
Competence bonus to threat range can come from various sources. It affects weapon's base multiplier and thus the effect is doubled by Improved Critical feat or Keen enchantment. Multiple effects granting competence bonus don't stack.
Fighter's Keen Edge enhancement adds 1 to the threat range of a his/her selected weapon group.
Bard's Swashbuckling enhancement modifies the threat / multiplier as follows
Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat, +1 Multiplier
Light Mace, Light Hammer, Kama, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat, +1 Multiplier
Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
Handaxe: +2 Threat
Light Pick: +1 Threat
Staff Specialization, available for Rogues and Monks, add +1 to thread and multiplier for quarterstaves
Monk's Ninja Master enhancement modifies the threat as follows
Shortsword: +1 threat
Kama, Shuriken: +2 threat
Legendary Dreadnought's Pulverizer adds +1 threat for bludgeoning weapons. Find details and exceptions in the LD article.
Sacred bonus (?) to threat range is available to Divine Crusaders: +1 threat for all weapons (not handwraps/animal forms). The effect is doubled by Improved Critical feat or Keen enchantment.
Insight bonus to threat range is available from Bard's Exploit Weakness enhancement. Every time you don't crit, you get a +1. The effect is doubled by Improved Critical feat or Keen enchantment.
Barbarian's Critical Rage gives a stacking +2 threat while raging. This bonus is NOT doubled with Improved Critical/Keen. (Inconsistent, might be different for thrown weapons post)

Yah. That 17-20 base threat is better than 18-20, and even better after impact / improved critical. Now maybe the othe properties are awesome, I don't know off the top of my head, but the mace is gonna have better threat range as (insert build with 18-20 from competence here). Unfortunately SB bonus and LD bonus don't stat (both are internally competence)

Edit: Divine Crusader crit bonus is godly though as far as non-blitzing EDs go. With upcoming changes to dreadnought >.>

[Varinon]

Yah. That 17-20 base threat is better than 18-20, and even better after impact / improved critical. Now maybe the othe properties are awesome, I don't know off the top of my head, but the mace is gonna have better threat range as (insert build with 18-20 from competence here). Unfortunately SB bonus and LD bonus don't stat (both are internally competence)

Keen/Improved Crit are applied first, they do not multiply crit range bonuses (I wish they did though).
Also, you're right about Swashbuckling and Pulverizer not stacking--I just looked it up.
Even if it didn't, Mutineer's Blade has the same critical range and better properties than the Skullsmasher. (You can actually get 12-20/x3 crits with the Mutineer's Blade as a swashbuckler!)

Edit: Theoretically, if you were a barbarian/bard in Divine Crusader, you could get 10-20/x3 crits with the Mutineer's Blade. Interesting!

[Missing_Minds]

And yet, which will you have more fun with?

[autochthon]

Keen/Improved Crit are applied first, they do not multiply crit range bonuses (I wish they did though).
Also, you're right about Swashbuckling and Pulverizer not stacking--I just looked it up.
Even if it didn't, Mutineer's Blade has the same critical range and better properties than the Skullsmasher. (You can actually get 12-20/x3 crits with the Mutineer's Blade as a swashbuckler!)

Edit: Theoretically, if you were a barbarian/bard in Divine Crusader, you could get 10-20/x3 crits with the Mutineer's Blade. Interesting!

According to both the Wiki (which may be wrong) and the character sheet (which in some areas is wrong) Keen applies after other mods. I'll take the stacking listed in game thanks.

Edit: anecdotally my impact light mace crits far more than 5% more often than my non-keen rapier on my swashbuckler. Definitely closer to 30% than 20%.

[giftie]

Keen/Improved Crit are applied first, they do not multiply crit range bonuses (I wish they did though).

Incorrect. Keen/IC is applied after competence and feat type increases to crit range. I've tested this extensively.

But it is applied before Critical Rage, which is very disappointing.


Edit: Theoretically, if you were a barbarian/bard in Divine Crusader, you could get 10-20/x3 crits with the Mutineer's Blade. Interesting!

My Bardbarian is sitting on a 11-20 x4 melee crit range in heroics. At the end of the day, though, it's still a barb.

[gwonbush]

Skullsmasher is probably the best non-Thunderforged Swash weapon in the game as far as DPS goes. Between Ribcracker and its native Crit profile, it is an absolute monster, with a 48% chance to crit for 4x damage in Divine Crusader, with an additional 13d10 damage on crit. The only problem is that there are no other notable named items of its weapon type for a Swashbuckler.

[Chai]

Yep and the other best weapon, balizarde, already has keen, so spec for IC blunt. Skullsmasher is an awesome weapon for swash.

[Chimeran1]

At the end of the day, though, it's still a barb.

+1

[Chimeran1]

Seems to me it would be pretty beastly. I know it works in heroics, but how about in epics? With all the skeletons in end-game, it would be rather ideal for thunderholme slayers and the raids (and epic orchard is coming up soon, and it has no few numbers of skeletons).

- Swashbuckler adds +2 threat range and +1 critical multipliers for light maces.

- Legendary Dreadnaught has +1 critical multiplier on rolls of 19-20 with tier 5 Devastating Critical.

- Legendary Dreadnaught has +1 threat range with bludgeoning weapons with the tier 6 Pulverizer.

- You also have access to a +15% doublestrike-on-crit with Lightning Mace, also in Legendary Dreadnaught.

- Skullsmasher is a great bludgeoning weapon, with +1 critical muliplier and the ribcracker enhancement, and is compatible with swashbuckler since it's a light mace.

- The bard I want to use this on is also a morninglord, so I can get +4 to-hit/damage with light maces.

Excluding items and feats, that's a whooping +3 threat range and +2 critical multiplier (+3 with skullsmasher). Worthwhile, or are rapiers/short swords still better?

Cough..cough... Iconic Morninglord mace bonuses... Add a few more points here :)
+6% to hit
+ 4 damage
+ 4 to hit
Dex for damage bonus ( max dex 6 swashbuckler/12 fighter/2rogue? ) or 12 cleric/Fvs sounds like fun to me. ( lots of options here, strength or charisma builds )
+2 intel
Bonuses to rogue skills
Turn undead bonus + 6 levels
Free true seeing
Auto trap finding/ secret doors !( don't need search,more skill points to spend elsewhere )
Double strike bonus

The racials for a swashbuckler/rogue are quite impressive
Post a build, I will test it :)

Also, even if you don't go morninglord, there are some very tidy low level maces.
*Nice red slot level 10 named mace from tempest spine raid
*Wraith mace named, red slot low level
* Will work with SWF but not swash stance ( only light maces work )

[MangLord]

Looking at the swashbuckling bonuses, it seems that virtually all light weapons are pretty much equal in terms of adjusted threat range and multiplier. My personal preference is to take advantage of the +4 att/dam off drow tree for rapiers, shortswords and shuriken, coupling that with the swashbuckler boosts. Elf tree also offers a lot of bonuses for rapiers, stacking doublestrike and dodge, but you're locked in to rapiers exclusively, while drow offers more option with the feat synergy of short swords and racial/swashbuckler thrown weapon boost for shuriken. Drow opens up a few more options for what weapons I've saved on my travels, so I went with that. Between swash and the upcoming harper tree, alternative stat-for-damage doesn't seem to be an issue. I chose DEX as my main stat simply because it saves a precious feat when dealing with reflex saves over the Harper INT. Last but not least, I love being greeted by an attractive drow lady decked out in cool looking armor when I first log in for the day. PDK doesn't do it for me and I don't care what the benefits are. They look like half orcs.

The big issue I see with specializing in light maces is that you lock yourself into one single weapon that doesn't have a lot of named, special options. That's not to say that you can't find good lootgen epic gear. My last life was a TWF scimitar elf warpriest following the Undying Court. It took a little while, but I found nice sets of smiting/banishing/disruption weapons to supplement my standard Frostbite Blades quad stacked with ruby eyes. You'll likely want to invest in Improved Critical feat, and the only light option for bludgeoning is the light mace. In my opinion, Imp Crit and Precision pays dividends for a light weapon user in end game content that's heavy on undead and constructs, what with stacking fort bypass and a broad crit range. That's not to say that epic lootgen weapons can't do very well for you, but you may have to hunt and pay a premium in AH. I'll eat the bludgeoning or slashing DR on undead without worrying about it too much, assuming I'm using a disruption piercing weapon, and who isn't using the Mutineer's Blade in Thunderholme? I did briefly campaign for the Mutineer's Blade to be a light mace, but that didn't happen. I'm fine with a rapier, since every swash has Imp Crit Pierce, but a light mace would have provided an interesting wrench in the works or viability for alternative builds.

Given the range and ubiquity of rapiers and short swords, both named and lootgen, I really have to lean towards that path. Named and lootgen light maces are pretty dang rare, but a good one like the Gianthold light mace can last you a long time. I can gather a stable of epic level rapiers and short swords through the Eveningstar weapon vendor, questing and AH fairly quickly, but hunting down a good smiter, disruptor and banisher can be a challenge with unusual weapons like light maces and handaxes. Everyone plays differently, but when I'm working my way through Thunderholme and those raids, a disruption, banishing and smiting weapon is put in an easy to find place on my hotbars.

I'm all for flavor and trying something different. I think it would be kinda cool seeing a bard swinging something other than a thunderforged rapier while waiting for a raid to fill. Light maces are certainly viable and very cool whilst swashing, but may require a little more work in terms of gathering resources.

With the upcoming rollout of epic Orchard, a high level light mace seems to fit in perfectly, but this update appears to be devoid of weapons. DDO has has a tradition of churning out named versions of popular weapons, and most light weapons have been largely neglected aside from daggers and shortswords.
Here's hoping Anauroch will provide the huge variety of weapons and gear that Demon Sands did. It's a perfect opportunity to expand character builds based off great end game gear like back in the old days.

As far as Morninglord, I haven't run the maths, but I want to say that the racial and warpriest boosts to heavy maces might top light maces while dual wielding. The 20 roll proc rate is nice enough that carrying a set of disruption/smiting/banishing weapons is well worth it. The melee power buffs for THF and SWF may be better after the next update, but I don't play to min/max exclusively. The warpriest light damage is pretty minor at epics, but an extra racial/warpriest +9 is pretty good. If top tier Harper enhancements grant more, then I'll opt for that. Granted, regular elf tree offers the same bonuses for scimitars with the Undying Court with a much larger threat range. I ran an elf warpriest melee DPS build up to level 28 and didn't hate it, even with heavy armor and no evasion.