Paladin becoming the master (melee) class

[A-O]

With the abbot returns update coming next, and the announced changes to Holy sword, we're very liekly going to see a surge of paladins. Not only because "they are finally getting good", but also because they will literally outshine both fighters and barbarians in melee. Damage, and survivability.

15 Paladin splits in particular, as that nets you Holy Sword (+1 multplier, +1 (2 with imp crit) range, +1(w), +2 enhancement bonus), zeal 10% double strike, and 3 dmg from divine favor for damage.

For comparison, 15 fighter gives you 4 damage from Greater weapon speci. That's it. Additionally, though, they gain 8 str from Kensai that 15 pal won't be able to get.

Importantly, the crit range and multiplier won't stack with enhancements, but that still leaves them one multiplier ahead so to speak. Kensai III nets you +1 range, but no multiplier. and FB nets you 3 crit multiplier 19-20, but no range.

Also, since HS doesn't stack with PRE crit factors, they will not necessarily have to spec so deep in PREs that do not give much besides crit range (e.g. kensai only gives what 4 dmg, (8 str if you're 12 fgt), and a bunch of to hit). This means you can go tier 5 in e.g. the new kotc for a free gcleave, or any other pre for utility (e.g. TA for a Qstaff build, or defender for a tank dps (Still *high* dps) spec.

In other words, highest damage (by quite a large margin) and a *lot* of options in pres. Plus sick sustain (loh, csw, SP class for coccon, etc.), and potentially good ac (we'll see how they nerf the mobs to hit on EE, if ac becomes good).

They'll lack the self-displacement that SBs get though, so that's a drawback, still, it's not like fgts get that eitehr, so.



Now, this is only considering what we know *now*, so things may change. Particularly, if epic orchard arrives, there's bound to be an epic Deathnip. The non-epic one gives a paladin build like this a crit profile of 15-20x5, with seeker 10 and heartseeker IV. Prett solid. An epic version will probably get Heartseeker V or VI, and seeker 15 maybe, along with +8/+10 base and more W damage.

Odds are, insanly strong. And no other class will be able to utalize the epic Deathnip like a paladin, as they get that extra multiplier that no other class gets.

I'll probably TR into a 16 pal, 2 mnk, 2 fgt. Plenty of feats for metamagics, evasion, insanity saves, solid HP, high to highest damage attainable melee, and great self healing. Possibly remarkable AC as well, depending on if 150ish will be worth it in EE with the next update.

Another possibility is a 14pal (skip holysword), 5 rogue (tier 5 acrobat), 1 mnk, with QS. Since criticals will be buffed in the next update (with melee power base dmg will be better than elemental dmg as it does not scale), a solid QS build with the Caught in the web QS will have sick crit profile and 25% doublestrike from TA, and 10% from zeal.

We'll have to see if they go through with Holy Sword as it stands now. But if they do, prepare to become the master class.

[TheGuyYouKnow]

ive got a 12pal/5rog/3monk acrobat that if changes go ahead as currently planned i will be tring into a 16/2/2 or 15/2/3, hopefully i can get my hands on sireth before then.

now if only i could make a pali bard

[the_one_dwarfforged]

they get all that, plus improve cleaves, and extra on hit dmg against undead.

with epic orchard coming out.

bow to the master class.

[mistalley]

The way to make paladin not so overpowered is easy. Just gives player two version of holy sword, one is +1 range, the other is +1 mutiplier. And player can choose either of them.
Problem solved.

[maddong]

Or the fighter 12 equiv is the base at level 14 and at 20 you gain the +1 crit mult.

[Alternative]

You all don't forget you need 19 levels of paladin to have all Holy Sword, Zeal, and CSW spells, else you give up part of dps or the sustained cure.

After the initial hype, at endgame paladin dps will be about as popular as kensai 3 is now. Paladin gets a few nice things but needing 15 or 19 levels of the class leaves very little versatility that other melee classes enjoy.

Though if I see serious lfms demanding paladins for dps slots I'll eat my shorts.

[A-O]

You all don't forget you need 19 levels of paladin to have all Holy Sword, Zeal, and CSW spells, else you give up part of dps or the sustained cure.

After the initial hype, at endgame paladin dps will be about as popular as kensai 3 is now. Paladin gets a few nice things but needing 15 or 19 levels of the class leaves very little versatility that other melee classes enjoy.

Though if I see serious lfms demanding paladins for dps slots I'll eat my shorts.

Go bladeforged, dump repair crit, survive with recon, repair serious and lower. Pick zeal + HS at 14/15 respectively. That's 15 levels pala.
Can go 14 pala and drop zeal and still come ahead a crit multiplier of every other class.

The initial surge of powergamers going Pala will be significant, I bet. I for one, won't hesitate to TR into a Paladin.

[Battlehawke]

Fierce

She is my Human DPS focused Paladin. She has phenomenal Survivability and Self Healing. Can't wait to see the DPS go up. 15 Paladin is all you really need......just not sure what Rgr or Ftr lvl 3 provides that's useful...



16Pal/2Rgr/2Ftr in Heavy Armor

16Pal/2Rgr/2Mnk in Light Armor (no robes..just evasion & 2 Feats)

1) Ftr - Pbs, Precise Shot, PA
2) Pal
3) Rgr - THF or TWF (Bow Str)
4-5) Pal
6) Pal - Quicken
7) Rgr - (Rapid Shot)
8) Pal
9) Pal - ITHF or ITWF
10-11) Pal
12) Pal - Manyshot
13) Pal
14) Ftr - GTHF or GTWF
15) Pal - IC, Slashing
16-17) Pal
18) Pal - IC, Ranged
19-20) Pal
21) OC
24) Empower Healing
26) Perfect THF
27) Epic DR
28) Perfect TWF

If going the light armor route then monk at lvl 1 and 2 and take THF at lvl two.
If going BF then lose Quicken and Empower Healing and grab Mithril or Admantine Body.

Be very careful of feat selections and make sure you are aware of requirements......there are many and this is a tight build....

...there should be no need for Cleave and Great Cleave with the new Paladin Cleave. ..

[A-O]

16Pal/2Rgr/2Ftr in Heavy Armor

16Pal/2Rgr/2Mnk in Light Armor (no robes..just evasion & 2 Feats)

1) Ftr - Pbs, Precise Shot, PA
2) Pal
3) Rgr - THF or TWF (Bow Str)
4-5) Pal
6) Pal - Quicken
7) Rgr - (Rapid Shot)
8) Pal
9) Pal - ITHF or ITWF
10-11) Pal
12) Pal - Manyshot
13) Pal
14) Ftr - GTHF or GTWF
15) Pal - IC, Slashing
16-17) Pal
18) Pal - IC, Ranged
19-20) Pal
21) OC
24) Empower Healing
26) Perfect THF
27) Epic DR
28) Perfect TWF

No point going TWF after the next patch, even now. THF or SWF. I'd argue for SWF (roughly 20% ahead of THF, but THF will gain 20 melee power, so they'll be about even, with SWF slightly ahead *probably*).
Other than that, your build suggestion looks solid, mnk 2 is probably better than the 2 fgt. Evasion, saves, and if AC by chance is useful when they nerf ee to hit, monk ac will be superior too.

I'm not a fan of your efeat choices, though.

[goodspeed]

The ranger is used to net a burst of manyshot and to fit all the feats in.

I used an older build and tweaked it a bit. went 15 pali, 3 rng, 2 rog. Horc.

The dudes survivable, and can take a blow in ee. Base dmg around 100 dmg a swing give or take 10 to 15 depending ED. Only thing is, another feat would be useful so human would be better. But **** it I like the way a horc looks holding that mammoth axe/sword.

Honestly I like him now, and im waiting with anticipation to see what they do.

[SealedInSong]

For changes to Holy Sword, etc? I just glanced around the forums and didn't see anything trending from recently.

Thanks!

[Battlehawke]

No point going TWF after the next patch, even now. THF or SWF. I'd argue for SWF (roughly 20% ahead of THF, but THF will gain 20 melee power, so they'll be about even, with SWF slightly ahead *probably*).
Other than that, your build suggestion looks solid, mnk 2 is probably better than the 2 fgt. Evasion, saves, and if AC by chance is useful when they nerf ee to hit, monk ac will be superior too.

I'm not a fan of your efeat choices, though.

1) True on the Evasion build in the current game. It doesn't look like an obtainable amount of PRR and MRR will high enough to out weigh dodge and evasion with the saves on this build even in the proposed changes.
2) It will be interesting if SWF has higher DPS after U23 than THF. With the "moving" glancing blows, I think THF will be better.
3) What efeats would you chose while staying focused on dps? My thoughts are more glancing damage and a higher chance for double strikes....

[Battlehawke]

I would think just a tad of loss in the Survivability with a gain in DPS on a THF version. Still very capable of solo'ing EE in LD.



The ranger is used to net a burst of manyshot and to fit all the feats in.

I used an older build and tweaked it a bit. went 15 pali, 3 rng, 2 rog. Horc.

The dudes survivable, and can take a blow in ee. Base dmg around 100 dmg a swing give or take 10 to 15 depending ED. Only thing is, another feat would be useful so human would be better. But **** it I like the way a horc looks holding that mammoth axe/sword.

Honestly I like him now, and im waiting with anticipation to see what they do.

[Xyfiel]

Still looking at 15Pal/4Ranger/1Ftr Bladeforged with 30DR shadow docent. Twf Khopeshes, manyshot and improved precise. May not be optimum but should be decent.

[goodspeed]

I would think just a tad of loss in the Survivability with a gain in DPS on a THF version. Still very capable of solo'ing EE in LD.

lol what can't solo with LD?

Well for now anyway. We'll see after the finished product if ld or multiple ed's still function after the upgrades.

[Ultimaetus]

I think people missed the point where you have to invest 14/15 levels just to get holy sword/zeal

[Alternative]

Go bladeforged, dump repair crit, survive with recon, repair serious and lower. Pick zeal + HS at 14/15 respectively. That's 15 levels pala.
Can go 14 pala and drop zeal and still come ahead a crit multiplier of every other class.

The initial surge of powergamers going Pala will be significant, I bet. I for one, won't hesitate to TR into a Paladin.

It still doesn't appeal to me enough to play it, but if you say it will encourage people to finally play the class then I suppose the mission of buffing paladins is accomplished? Calling it a "master melee class" is an exaggeration, if anything we'll have to see how the defense changes work in practice, as well as melee power.

[jalont]

It still doesn't appeal to me enough to play it, but if you say it will encourage people to finally play the class then I suppose the mission of buffing paladins is accomplished? Calling it a "master melee class" is an exaggeration, if anything we'll have to see how the defense changes work in practice, as well as melee power.

May I ask what your build goals are, as it doesn't seem to be to have an optimal build. If that's the case, then what about Paladin doesn't appeal to you?

[Saekee]

as mentioned in the above posts, the key difference is multiplier vs threat range. The monk ninja capstone and kensei Tier 5 only affect range. SB gets both as do the two tier 5 staff buffs (Henshin, Acrobat).
I think the Kensei and ninja capstones should increase the multiplier.

Right now a build with three levels of bard can wield a kama more powerfully than a capstoned ninja.

[Enoach]

Zeal's +10% Double strike is a tough choice to give up on melee
Holy Sword +1 Crit Multiplier and Extended Critical Range is also tough choice to give up.

For solo and high survivability two other spells rate high on my Deathward and Cure Serious Wounds (More so with SP regeneration) and to get the 3rd and 4th Spell Slot you need 19 and 20 Levels.

I think as a community we can all agree that the current Holy Sword spell has been out-of-date for a long time. I'm glad to see making this a weapon buff instead of a stand alone.

But to get 1 of these spells you need 14 levels, to get 2 spells you need 15 Levels.

The next thing I would like to point out is that with the next update is going to be full of undead and it does not matter how big the Crit range or Crit multiplier if you cannot bypass the Fortification.

While these changes look to be the right direction, it is the Defensive changes that I look forward to the most. it will be nice to see a melee be able to stand and take the hits from multiple targets.

[A-O]

1) True on the Evasion build in the current game. It doesn't look like an obtainable amount of PRR and MRR will high enough to out weigh dodge and evasion with the saves on this build even in the proposed changes.
2) It will be interesting if SWF has higher DPS after U23 than THF. With the "moving" glancing blows, I think THF will be better.
3) What efeats would you chose while staying focused on dps? My thoughts are more glancing damage and a higher chance for double strikes....

You are probably right about THF, with the added 20 melee power (roughly 15% dmg) and glancings while twitching THF should come out slightly ahead.

Glancing blow damage is negligible at best for DPS so I'd pick something that's actually useful instead, like epic reflexes or combat archery for when you're ranged, or even elusive target for another 5% dr.

[A-O]

It still doesn't appeal to me enough to play it, but if you say it will encourage people to finally play the class then I suppose the mission of buffing paladins is accomplished? Calling it a "master melee class" is an exaggeration, if anything we'll have to see how the defense changes work in practice, as well as melee power.

"Master melee class" in the sense that a 15 paladin split will net the highest melee damage along with the highest melee survivability. I'd call that a master class.

[Zachski]

as mentioned in the above posts, the key difference is multiplier vs threat range. The monk ninja capstone and kensei Tier 5 only affect range. SB gets both as do the two tier 5 staff buffs (Henshin, Acrobat).
I think the Kensei and ninja capstones should increase the multiplier.

Right now a build with three levels of bard can wield a kama more powerfully than a capstoned ninja.

Considering Bard can't even multiclass with Monk and thus has to take kama as a feat, that's saying something.

(I always did find it strange that Bard, a profession that required a lot of discipline in real life to be able to master music and memorize tales and poems, isn't even allowed to be lawful in D&D. I think Pathfinder 'fixed' this little oddity.)

So I'm guessing that after the update, there will still be little reason to take Paladin beyond level 15?

[goodspeed]

Zeal's +10% Double strike is a tough choice to give up on melee
Holy Sword +1 Crit Multiplier and Extended Critical Range is also tough choice to give up.

For solo and high survivability two other spells rate high on my Deathward and Cure Serious Wounds (More so with SP regeneration) and to get the 3rd and 4th Spell Slot you need 19 and 20 Levels.

I think as a community we can all agree that the current Holy Sword spell has been out-of-date for a long time. I'm glad to see making this a weapon buff instead of a stand alone.

But to get 1 of these spells you need 14 levels, to get 2 spells you need 15 Levels.

The next thing I would like to point out is that with the next update is going to be full of undead and it does not matter how big the Crit range or Crit multiplier if you cannot bypass the Fortification.

While these changes look to be the right direction, it is the Defensive changes that I look forward to the most. it will be nice to see a melee be able to stand and take the hits from multiple targets.

Can't you? I see a big number above a skelly all the time with multiple fort reductions. Of course im sure its broke but for now it's there.

Then again for that very reason the content could fail. I mean if the undead really act like undead then its always a melee's most annoyance. Meanwhile the fire savent nukes everything. They had better make some amazing loot and make it hard to get for that place to take off.

[SealedInSong]

Edit: found it in the "Armor up" thread. Awesome update to the spell that's long overdue...just difficult to find in a thread about armor!

[Xenaphon]

With addition of MRR, why would pally not go pure? Improvement to Armor and Shield with additional DPS makes pure Paladin enticing to say the least.

I think you either go couple of levels to get divine grace or go pure to get all the goodies.

I am looking forward to building one.

[mrunlimited]

So I have been working on a few things on lamia in the past couple days testing out the new pally changes. So far I have done a 2hander build and a twf build pure pally. Surprisingly enough, I found the twf with 2khopeshes does massive amounts of dps as compared to thf. You still kill trash a little quicker on ee as thf build but bosses go down so much faster with the twf khopesh build. I was running in divine crusader and even with consecrate, strike down and the 2 new pally cleaves, in EE LOD I would kill a red named faster than the trash around it. Two problems I have encountered thus far in testing these builds, a) there is an MRR bug that reduces healing coming in which I think may be causing the problem I am having with running out of spell power quickly. b) I have no crowd control and on ee several mobs on you even with the new armor changes is a little more than I can heal through currently at times.

To this end I still need to test out a sword and board and a single weapon fighting build. Im waiting on the vanguard tree to go live on lamia before doing s&b though. Im thinking about possibly trying 2 s&b builds, one pure and one 15 pally/5 wiz. Getting displacement alongside of the ek enhancements could have some nice synergy as well as additional spell points. With ek enhancements you can still make this a heavy armor build. Im guessing that adding a shield will help survivability alot.

Overall though the changes are fun and actually pretty dang good. I still feel like my evasion swashbuckler is a little more powerful but not by much.

[giftie]

With addition of MRR, why would pally not go pure? Improvement to Armor and Shield with additional DPS makes pure Paladin enticing to say the least.

I was thinking the same thing myself. If you're already Paladin 15, what's going to add more value than 4d6 light, 10 melee power, 4 level 4 spells, and so on. Well, okay, 5 Wiz if you're BF, but for fleshies - especially dragonmarked Elves - pure class looks very tempting.


Surprisingly enough, I found the twf with 2khopeshes does massive amounts of dps as compared to thf.

Weird... any idea why? I'd have thought TF procs, if that was the case, would favour TWF against trash rather than red-names. Is it the light and holy procs?

[Seikojin]

You do know fighter and Barb are getting love later, right?

[Chimeran1]

Overall though the changes are fun and actually pretty dang good. I still feel like my evasion swashbuckler is a little more powerful but not by much.

Swashbuckler is king melee dps ATM.
I just TR'ed out of my Bladeforged Swashbuckler into Paladin and was like ***.. Only build I ever did that came close to my BF Swash was a BF Cetus build using dual Khopesh and Grand Master of forms.
Swashbuckler such a great class, shame they are going to Bork it out of existence with the shield feat change.
I regret TR'ing out of it, but once I hit 28 I get bored very quickly.

[Chimeran1]

So any word about SWF being allowed to work with shields for Paladin in the same way Swashbucklers get to use it with Bucklers?

[Scrabbler]

So any word about SWF being allowed to work with shields for Paladin in the same way Swashbucklers get to use it with Bucklers?
The word on that was out months ago.

Here's the word.

"No"

As it happens, Paladins get +20% attack speed while holding a shield, which comes close to the +30% granted by GSWF; and without spending feats. (Their Vanguard shield-DPS tree still has some huge flaws, though)