Multi Class is awesome, IMHO.... What classes is Gandalf?

[firemedium_jt]

He swung a sword a lot.

He also used his staff one handed.

Gygax is not the founding father. Gygax got his from Tolkien.

[walkin_dude]

Gandalf is an iconic hero! :D

He's called a wizard in the writings. Racially, he is of the Maiar.

[Wh070aa]

I assume Grandalf is wizard in Exalted Angel prestige?(Divine Crusader twists?). Possibly rogue or monk splashes. You can actually melee pretty good on a pure wizard, just that spell casting is better. With good weapon, tensers, and stuff you can sword up. As for 1 handed staff, he was probably in zombie form.

Alternatively sorcerer/favored soul.

[BigErkyKid]

I actually tried to think of a Gandfish build (in my case Elminster).

There is not a good synergy betwen classes in end game if you do want to feel like you can both melee and blast.

Pity!

[Dandonk]

Must have dabbled into paladin - Doorstop paladin, anyway. You shall not pass!

[droid327]

Gandalf was a Maiar. That's all you can really say. He doesn't even fit into a class in LOTRO, let alone in DDO. The "magic" he used in the low-fantasy setting of LOTR, and what that meant in-universe, doesn't really translate into the high-fantasy setting of DDO. Think about what he actually does in the game that would qualify as "casting a spell" in DDO: he makes magic fireworks and smoke rings. He makes some burning embers explode to ward off Wargs. He makes a light in Moria (which could just be an enchanted item). That's about it. I think if he had Feather Fall, his imprisonment on top of Orthanc wouldn't have been so easy...

I guess you could call him a Good Outsider, in DDO terms, too.

[Sisma]

I would say Sorc18/Pally2... must have rocket-high saves to have survived what he stumbled into (Balrog first)... But no evasion, or he would have survived BETTER...
Obviously some EK ench going on...
Not sure what ED he's on, tho... Maybe EA, but I can recognize something of Unyelding, or Crusader...

[Oxarhamar]

He swung a sword a lot.

He also used his staff one handed.

Gygax is not the founding father. Gygax got his from Tolkien.

Gygax Tolkien... Meh

The lot of it is borrowed from ancient myth is and expanded from there.

Gandalf resembled Odin in features minus the eye patch. Odin was a warrior type god who dabble in magics.

I'd imagine Gandalf as a god of some kind guiding the mortals to their destinies. As a god he would transcend class limitations.

[Wh070aa]

Gandalf was a Maiar. That's all you can really say. He doesn't even fit into a class in LOTRO, let alone in DDO. The "magic" he used in the low-fantasy setting of LOTR, and what that meant in-universe, doesn't really translate into the high-fantasy setting of DDO. Think about what he actually does in the game that would qualify as "casting a spell" in DDO: he makes magic fireworks and smoke rings. He makes some burning embers explode to ward off Wargs. He makes a light in Moria (which could just be an enchanted item). That's about it. I think if he had Feather Fall, his imprisonment on top of Orthanc wouldn't have been so easy...

I guess you could call him a Good Outsider, in DDO terms, too.

Maiar is a race (well about same extent Liches are race).

[droid327]

Maiar is a race (well about same extent Liches are race).

Yeah but what class is Tiamat? What class is Shar? What class is the Spinner of Shadows?

Immortals and primordial higher beings don't really have a class. They just are what they are, their powers and abilities are wholly innate and not "learned" like class levels.

[stoerm]

Gandalf was a Maiar. That's all you can really say. He doesn't even fit into a class in LOTRO, let alone in DDO. The "magic" he used in the low-fantasy setting of LOTR, and what that meant in-universe, doesn't really translate into the high-fantasy setting of DDO. Think about what he actually does in the game that would qualify as "casting a spell" in DDO: he makes magic fireworks and smoke rings. He makes some burning embers explode to ward off Wargs. He makes a light in Moria (which could just be an enchanted item). That's about it. I think if he had Feather Fall, his imprisonment on top of Orthanc wouldn't have been so easy...

I guess you could call him a Good Outsider, in DDO terms, too.

There are quite a few magical abilities he used, including counterspell, shield of the Istari and destructive blast, and almost was able to match the (albeit not-quite-ready) Sauron himself in Dol Guldur. See bottom of this page for a list of spells: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gandalf

I have always thought of him as a neutral good outsider, preferring others to make history and just nudge things along instead of taking a central role, which partly explains why he used his powers only when absolutely necessary. On top of Orthanc he was pretty much OOM (so to speak) and/or stripped of casting ability by Saruman. Calling Gwaihir wasn't as much casting as pseudo-Druidic ability or echoes of power in action. :)

[Maldorin]

The "magic" he used in the low-fantasy setting of LOTR, and what that meant in-universe, doesn't really translate into the high-fantasy setting of DDO.

Conan is low fantasy. LOTR is quintessential high fantasy.

[firemedium_jt]

No magic by Gandalf??

I saw some force spells by him. He likes to break bridges and crack rocks to let the sun in along with an area affect force knockdown against the Goblins. There was also a lot more running away to fight another day.

A few globes of invenerability in the movies too.

It is just concentration is a joke in ddo. If being hit negated every spell most casters would have some melee, but what fun would that be.



This OP is mainly to dispute another thread against multi classing in this fantasy world and that it is against some sorta theme.

[droid327]

See bottom of this page for a list of spells: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gandalf


You mean the list of "Non-Canonical Magical Abilities"? :)

Even Sauron and Saruman weren't overtly magical in a DDO sense. Saruman's power came from his knowledge, as a Maiar under the "God of Crafts", so to say. That's how he had knowledge of breeding Uruk-hai, for example. The only expressly magical thing he does is call a storm over Caradhras.

Sauron's power was one of corruption and enthrallment. Again, he was never out there slinging magical fireballs or orbs of pure force power against Isildur and his armies. Voldemort casts more spells by the end of the first Harry Potter book than Sauron does in all three LOTR, plus the Hobbit and Silmarillion (and crafts six more Horcruxes than Sauron did).

Really, the most overtly magical we see in the whole books is from Elrond, who calls a flood at the Fords of Bruinen. The great preponderance of "magic" we see is used to bring knowledge, to inspire or corrupt, or to strengthen and enhance that which already is.

[Powskier]

Gandolf is a Middle Earth character...that game has its own system that is not completely d&d compatible...Middle Earth R P has a real decent crit table to use in table dice games.

[firemedium_jt]

Sarumon casted Fireball from top the Tower.

Gandalf called familar to get help from the Eagles.

Many races have weapon prof built in.

[Powskier]

someone must have the Gandolf sheet from MERP..I looked in the Merp compendium, but no luck...pretty sure they wrote him up.I was a % based roll play ,you could pick any abilities,power depended on stackin the same class abilities usually.

[firemedium_jt]

Divine Power items are alot cheaper to use to melee with a caster than the spell or even Teserrs Transformation.

[stoerm]

someone must have the Gandolf sheet from MERP..I looked in the Merp compendium, but no luck...pretty sure they wrote him up.I was a % based roll play ,you could pick any abilities,power depended on stackin the same class abilities usually.

Ah MERP, good times waaay back. IIRC it was based on Rolemaster, one more system our DM put us through at some point or other.

[Alfhild]

Gandalf was a Maia.
Quenya grammar Nazi ftw!

[Rykka]

Gandalf was a Maiar. That's all you can really say. He doesn't even fit into a class in LOTRO, let alone in DDO. The "magic" he used in the low-fantasy setting of LOTR, and what that meant in-universe, doesn't really translate into the high-fantasy setting of DDO. Think about what he actually does in the game that would qualify as "casting a spell" in DDO: he makes magic fireworks and smoke rings. He makes some burning embers explode to ward off Wargs. He makes a light in Moria (which could just be an enchanted item). That's about it. I think if he had Feather Fall, his imprisonment on top of Orthanc wouldn't have been so easy...

I guess you could call him a Good Outsider, in DDO terms, too.

This. Maia were kinda like angels or demigods. Also Elrond Halfelven was actually like 1/4 Maia.

Though he didn't simply fence with the Balrog and got about 6 million XP when he soloed it, to come back as Gandalf the White. Lol.

In DDO I'd be tempted to build him as a bard SWF with a Bastard Sword.

[Rykka]

Actually I think the idea of "Arcane", as a non-divine source of supernatural power is pretty recent. Like Dr. Strange comic books recent. Pretty much anything before that had supernatural power being linked to channeling a power from a divine or diabolic source.

[Gremmlynn]

This. Maia were kinda like angels or demigods. Also Elrond Halfelven was actually like 1/4 Maia.

Though he didn't simply fence with the Balrog and got about 6 million XP when he soloed it, to come back as Gandalf the White. Lol.

In DDO I'd be tempted to build him as a bard SWF with a Bastard Sword.He mostly didn't survive the fight with the Balrog. Just enough of him did to, basically, "TR" himself into Gandalf the White.

As far as magic goes. Gandalf and Elrond, as well as Galadriel, could have drawn their magic from the three rings of the elves as they were the bearers of those.

[sifubob]

someone must have the Gandolf sheet from MERP..I looked in the Merp compendium, but no luck...pretty sure they wrote him up.I was a % based roll play ,you could pick any abilities,power depended on stackin the same class abilities usually.

I used to have it, not anymore though. They did indeed stat him up, but the stats they had for him were terrible, and didn't really represent him well IMHO. For example, if he used his Shield spell (the bubble thing he faced down the Balrog with) a Balrog had a 99% chance of shattering it with its first attack, and one-shotting Gandalf with any subsequent attacks...

[droid327]

He mostly didn't survive the fight with the Balrog. Just enough of him did to, basically, "TR" himself into Gandalf the White.


No, he *entirely* didn't survive the fight with the Balrog. He straight up died.

Ea (ie God in the monotheistic sense, keeping in mind that Middle Earth is largely an analogue of Medieval Catholic Europe) sent him back. One of the few times Tolkien used direct divine intervention.

[goodspeed]

he's an 18/2 sorc paladin. With triple down past lives all around.

[Powskier]

in ddo terms he prob is a monk/ftr/mage ,runnnin in kensai,as he always is meleein....with some unique epic destiny,he is the unique weilder of the sacred flame

[janave]

I think he would actually be a very low mage splash in DDO, paired with melee Favored Soul.

DnD and DDO, is not very good with mage/divine splashes, at least not in an MMO environment. With that said, a well equipped TR character could possibly do most heroic quests on elite with such character. And probably most quests up to Epic Hard.

Properly equipped, mostly meleeing in Crusader, Fury, or LD.

I think this could be a playable character:
12FVS - 6Sorc - 2Pal
AoV + Warpriest + EK + Defender

[lethargos]

I think 18/2 wiz/pal
A dogooder with a wizard hat

[MacRighteous]

This thread...

LOL


Stick to crunching maths

[Flavilandile]

someone must have the Gandolf sheet from MERP..I looked in the Merp compendium, but no luck...pretty sure they wrote him up.I was a % based roll play ,you could pick any abilities,power depended on stackin the same class abilities usually.

I have all the Lords of Middle Earth Volumes... I don't have them at work though... From memory depends if it's Gandalf The Grey or Gandalf The White... and IIRC it's LVL 120/360 and LVL 160/360 respectively ( in MERP/Rolemaster terms )... and he was multiclassed.

I'll try to remember to check it once I'm back at home tonight.

[luvirini]

I have all the Lords of Middle Earth Volumes... I don't have them at work though... From memory depends if it's Gandalf The Grey or Gandalf The White... and IIRC it's LVL 120/360 and LVL 160/360 respectively ( in MERP/Rolemaster terms )... and he was multiclassed.

I'll try to remember to check it once I'm back at home tonight.

bad memory.. :)

Gandalf the grey is listed as level 35/40 attack,level 70/80 other things on Middle Earth and level 240 in Aman.

Gandalf the white is level 50 attack 120 other things on Middle Earth and level 360 in Aman.

Those are Merp/Rolemaster levels. (Direct correspondance is hard, but about 1.5 rolemaster levels is a d&d level)

Me is a pure magician with real munchin stats

He has some sweet items, including a ring that among its abilities allows unlimited spell casting from two spell lists..

[zwiebelring]

Based on the actions I saw him doing in the movies I'd say he used:

Lightning Bolt + Force Field/Cage on the Balrog

Daylight against Nazgul

Teleport + Fireshield + Deflect Arrows + Quickened Heat Metal (porting to Aragorn's/Gimli's/William Turner....I mean Legolas' location in Fangorn)

Detect Thoughts constantly on Hobbits

Diplomacy + Sense Motive checks everywhere

Tenser's Transformation (since he mostly fought and almost to never cast a real spell)

The cure spell he used when Pippin(?) looked into the Palantir I dunno, must have been more of a mental cure, maybe Remove Curse, Heal's add. effects?

Exorcism ability or Break Enchantment on Theoden

Speak With Animals (silly white Fury copy when calling the horse + Moth messenger)

All in all not too many high level spells, but since he was an emissary being in some kind and very very old he could have 20 levels of classes in every DnD class (except Druid maybe, since Radagast seemed to have a reason for being in Middle Earth as well). And that's just assuming core classes without any epic levels.

For his actions, though, he has been a Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Ftr, Evangelist, arcane caster, Cleric all at once. So, the least amount of levels he had:

5 to 11 lvl.s of Clr

13 lvl.s of Wiz

1 lvl. of Ftr

10 lvl.s of Bladesinger and/or Spellsword (charging Lightning Bolt into Glamdring, then attacking the Balrog, I think channel spell is a Bladesinger feature)

10 lvl.s of Eldritch Knight (those melee skills suggest full BAB along with almost if not full CL)

[Flavilandile]

bad memory.. :)

Well since the book has been sitting on a shelf taking dust for the last 15 years.... bad memory indeed. ;)

[MadCookieQueen]

Gandalf is Elminster or Elminster is Gandalf:

Source 3.5 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting

Male Human (Chosen of Mystra) Ftr1/Rog/2/Clr3/Wiz24/Acm5

humanoid; HD 1d10+7 plus 2d6+14 plus 3d8+21 plus 24d4+168 plus 5d4+35; hp 369 (327); Init +10; Spd 30 ft; AC 31 (touch 19, flat-footed 27); Atk +25/+20/+15 melee (1d8+6/19-20, +5 thundering longsword) or +23 ranged touch (by spell); SA Sneak attack +1d6, turn undead 6/day; SQ arcane fire, arcane reach, mastery of counterspelling, mastery of elements, spell power, chosen immunities, chosen spell-like abilities, detect magic, enhanced Constitution, enhanced Intelligence, evasion, silver fire;

SR 21; AL CG; SV Fort +29, Ref +25, Will +29; Str 13, Dex 18, Con 24, Int 33, Wis 18, Cha 17; Height 6 feet 2 inches.


Skills and Feats: Balance +6, Climb +5, Concentration +39, Craft (alchemy) +31, Decipher Script +13, Diplomacy +6, Handle Animal +4, Heal +8, Hide +7, Intimidate +9, Intuit Direction +6, Jump +5, Knowledge (aracna) +21, Knowledge (local) +18, Knowledge (nature) +18, Knowledge (nobility) +18, Knowledge (the planes) +23, Knowledge (religion) +16, Listen +12, Move Silently +7, Open Lock +6, Perform (dance) +6, Ride +8, Search +13, Sense Motive +9, Spellcraft +51, Spot +10, Swim +5, Tumble +5;

Blooded, Combat Expertise, Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Delay Spell, Forge Ring, Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Luck of Heroes, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (spellcraft), Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Penetration, Twin Spell; Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Enhance Spell, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity.


Archmage High Arcana: arcane fire, arcane reach, mastery of counterspelling, mastery of elements, spell power.


Chosen Immunities: detect thoughts, disintegrate, Evard’s black tentacles, feeblemind, finger of death, fireball, magic missile, sunburst, imprisonment.


Chosen Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—dispel magic, lesser ironguard, see invisibility, shapechange, Simbul’s synostodweomer, spider climb, greater teleport, thunderlance, true seeing.
Detect Magic (Su): At will—line of sight.


Silver Fire (Su): see chapter 2 FRCS for details


Cleric Spells per Day (4/4/3 base DC = 14 + spell level, 15 + spell level for Evocation and Enchantment spells, Caster level 3rd.): 0 level—guidance, create water, purify food and drink; 1st level—wieldskill, faith healing, bless, command; 2nd level—silence, hand of divinity, aura against flame;


Wizard Spells per Day (4/7/7/7/6/5/5/4/4/4/3 base DC = 21 + spell level, 22 + spell level for Evocation and Enchantment spells. Caster level 30th.): 0 level—prestidigitation (2), daze, ghost sound; 1st level—identify, charm person, know protections, shield, grease, alarm, feather fall; 2nd level—nondetection, fog cloud, scorching ray, glitterdust, mirror image, Tasha’s hideous laughter, web; 3rd level—flashburst, fireball, blindsight, hold person, displacement, halt undead, Khelben’s suspended silence; 4th level—Evard’s black tentacles, zone of respite, fire shield, charm monster, solid fog, spell enhancer; 5th level—contact other plane, twin cloud of bewilderment, improved blink, feeblemind, Simbul’s spell matrix; 6th level—disintegrate, greater dispel magic, repulsion, Otiluke’s freezing sphere, mislead, flesh to stone; 7th level—translocation trick, forcecage, plane shift, Simbul’s spell sequencer; 8th level—Nybor’s wrathful castigation, maze, horrid wilting, power word blind; 9th level—meteor swarm, imprisonment, Elminster’s effulgent epuration, Simbul’s spell trigger; 10th level—twin delayed blast fireball, maximized twin ball lightning, twin mass hold person.
—Simbul’s spell trigger (flesh to stone, mislead, translocation trick, plane shift)


—Simbul’s spell sequencer (enervation, zone of respite, charm monster, improved blink)


—Simbul’s spell matrix (flashburst, Khelben’s suspended silence, hold person, displacement)


Spell Protections (always active): arcane sight (permanent), blindsight, chain contingency (ghostform, stoneskin - if physically attacked), contingency (antimagic field if someone else tries to cast Mordenkainen's disjunction), Elmisnter’s evasion (heal, regenerate if the "worst" should happen), eternal freedom (cast by the Simbul), freedom of movement (item), gemjump (2 gems, one to the Simbul & one to his keep), mind blank (item), nondetection, programmed image (of himself), safe time (cast by the Simbul), Simbul’s spell matrix, Simbul’s spell sequencer, Simbul’s spell trigger, spell turning (item), stasis clone.


Signature Possessions: ring of protection +5 (slotless), ring of spell turning, amulet of natural armor +5, bracers of armor +7, mantle of spell resistance plus +5 resistance, +5 thundering longsword, Elminster’s eversmoking pipe (epic), ring of spell storing (time stop, disguise self), necklace of fireballs (type VII), gloves of storing (2) [greater rod of metamagic (delay), greater rod of metamagic (maximize)], cowl of warding (hat), headband of intellect +6 (slotless), scarab of protection, 4 Baccob’s blessed books, portable hole [greater rod of metamagic (extend), rod of negation, scroll of Alamanther’s return, scroll of limited wish, scroll of Mordenkainen’s disjunction, ring of three wishes, As a very powerful wizard, Elminster has access to incredible resources and can acquire or make almost any nonartifact item he might need given time.]

[Uska]

Sarumon casted Fireball from top the Tower.

Gandalf called familar to get help from the Eagles.

Many races have weapon prof built in.

I wouldn't say it was a familiar it was more like summon Planar or Nature's ally

[MacRighteous]

Gandalf is Elminster or Elminster is Gandalf:
<snip>


Gandalf isn't human or humanoid and certainly is not Elminster (although Elminster is no doubt inspired by Gandalf - who was in turn inspired by Odin the Wanderer) Gandalf is Istari, or what Men and Elfs came to call a Wizard - but beyond that (because indeed Istari is just sort of a class-like title similar to Sheriff or Knight) he is Maia. Summoned from the shattered light at creation and empowered by the sacred flame during the Song of Iluvatar and was there called Olórin. He is undying and can not be unmade, although the mortal form that he inhabits to walk among the free people of Middle-earth can be cast to ruin (as in his fight with the Balrog) but as we have seen and by Gandalfs own words "My Spirit endures and now I return to you at the turn of the tide as Saruman the White, or as Saruman should have been. I am Gandalf the White" His powers are beyond the simple magic of Men and Elfs and works at a much higher and subtler level. Wisdom, Courage, Pity, Endurance, Strength and most of all Hope is his power base and he works tirelessly to imbue all the people he meets with these qualities to keep the darkness at bay. He is the Sheppard of Middle-earth and tasked to assist the free-peoples in the fight against the dominion of evil. Even Sauron would not dare to face Gandalf uncloaked without the ring on his finger - because when the chips are down - Gandalf can down right pwn all east of Valinor - but by his nature, would not do such a thing if it could be avoided.

Putting stats on Gandalf is like putting Stats on Metatron, an Arch Angel or Jesus... Much of their power is beyond our comprehension and is intangible for us to conceive of.

EDIT: It is a pet peeve of mine that the movies (especially the Hobbit) try to make it seem like Gandalf is supplicant to Galadriel and Elrond (who are not even the most powerful of their kin.) When in fact they are mere brats and whelps rolling at the feet of the Maia and Valar.

[Memnir]

http://i.imgur.com/TdEZZbU.jpg

[Seikojin]

http://i.imgur.com/TdEZZbU.jpg

Nice!

My question becomes, why Gandalf? Why not ask about Elm, since, you know, DnD.

[MacRighteous]

My question becomes, why Gandalf? Why not ask about Elm, since, you know, DnD.

Because the OP was trolling.

[MadCookieQueen]

Nice!

My question becomes, why Gandalf? Why not ask about Elm, since, you know, DnD.


Well because odds are more people are aware of Gandalf than are aware of Elminster...

That's all I got. <shrug>

[Nestroy]

Nice!

My question becomes, why Gandalf? Why not ask about Elm, since, you know, DnD.

Elminster is already set into D&D rules, more times over (for every ed. at least once, I would say). Gandalf on the other hand is hard to measure and settle into classes.

On the other hand - what good is Elminster to know his classes about when you are not allowed to kill that bloody piker for all the trouble he causes? After sending Ana into the Demonweb, after coming to claim victory after we retrieved her, comming after we killed the Glab at the end of the Netherscroll quests... I have many reasons to kill that Legendary Piker, but the game does not allow me, alas.

Give me the possibility to kill Elminster, Legendary Piker of Eveningstar, and I would care about CR and classes for that piece of ****. Gandalf on the other hand - we all love the mysteries surrounding that hlaf-god of legends. All I can say is that Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Must be at least part Druid. Has the animal empathy, uses some melee weapons. Maybe wizard/druid.

[Uska]

http://i.imgur.com/TdEZZbU.jpg

reminds me of Bored Flak

[bsquishwizzy]

Gandalf was HUGELY successful in the series.

Ergo...he splashed monk...

[Algreg]

Because the OP was trolling.

nah, I don´t think so, more like internet misguided in a "who would win in a battle between Superman and the Hulk???!!!" kind of way.

[dunklezhan]

EDIT: It is a pet peeve of mine that the movies (especially the Hobbit) try to make it seem like Gandalf is supplicant to Galadriel and Elrond (who are not even the most powerful of their kin.) When in fact they are mere brats and whelps rolling at the feet of the Maia and Valar.

The Istari were sent to middle earth for reasons of guiding the children of the Valar, in particular the younger races (which is why the istari appear human). They were not there to lead. In truth, they more or less are supplicant in terms of how they have to behave because they're there to try to convince folk to listen to their advice and they know the elves in Middle Earth in particular have a tendency to leap the other way when they feel like they're being told. I mean, that's why there's Elves in Middle Earth in the first place, right? So if they want their advice listened to, they have to be careful to acquiesce on 'minor' things so they can get away with putting their foot down over big stuff. That's my take on it anyway, even in the books. Plus, in the hobbit Gandalf is subservient -officially so - to Saruman, who is actually the one shooting him down with his weasel honeyed words (which is Saruman's main literally 'magic' power) - he convinces the elves not to listen. Galadriel is all for giving Gandalf the benefit of the doubt in that scene and Elrond is the same old head in the sand fella he's been since that idiot talking monkey failed to destroy The Ring, so it doesn't take much pushing for him to say 'nah, worrying over nothing', and, well, it's Elrond's house :)

The scene is also entirely made up for the film, but that they took it that way shows to me a subtler understanding.

However, Sauron appearing like a dirty great eye and revealing himself like that... that's kinda drama queeny for the Great Deceiver.

[painkiller3]

nah, I don´t think so, more like internet misguided in a "who would win in a battle between Superman and the Hulk???!!!" kind of way.

well that's easy...i like the hulk, but come on...superman.

[Missing_Minds]

well that's easy...i like the hulk, but come on...superman.

Depends really, but overall superman. But I have to agree with Algreg.

The real answer would be to keep it simple. Gandalf is a high level wizard that decided to blow a feat to be proficient with long swords. Why can he look like such a BA? High level, duh. The rest of the fellowship was probably about lvl 10 to 12 max. (Arragorn maybe was in the mid teens) Gandalf was the GMPC. Why else have him flit in and flirt out so much?

Besides the Balrog or some other Uber boss, what did you see Gandalf fight against? Low level grunts. Even in DDO when the cap was lvl 10 I could the same thing with my wizard. Heck, one event I had to because magic wasn't allowed in non quest zones at that time.

edit: just because.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MW9Nrg_kZU

[dunklezhan]

well that's easy...i like the hulk, but come on...superman.

Superman's an idiot. Hulk yells "Hulk feel stronger since eating Kryptonite sandwich!" and Superman takes one look at him, decides if it's green it might be dangerous, and flees. Hulk wins by default, but is sad because he didn't get to stomp on the walking Deus Ex Machina. Pff. Superman.

[PookaWitch]

Yeah but what class is Tiamat? What class is Shar? What class is the Spinner of Shadows?

Immortals and primordial higher beings don't really have a class. They just are what they are, their powers and abilities are wholly innate and not "learned" like class levels.

According to Faiths and Panthenons, Shar is...

Rogue 10 / Shadowdancer 10 / Assassin 10 / Sorcerer 9 / Shadow Adept 10 (with divine rank 18 and a huge plethora of god powers on top of that)

Tiamat, I don't have a 3rd ed version of her classes on hand, but they may have been around in 1rst ed when gods had stats/levels and were killable. (In 2nd ed I don't think that they were typically killable or had stats... but their avatars did.) If I recall, in 1rst ed Tiamat (and Bahamut) weren't even gods, just the heads of the dragons and had their stats in the monster manual.
The first adventure where Lolth was introduced had stats for her and the characters were supposed to fight her.... but I have no idea what the classs/levels for the Spinner of Shadows would be, that is unless you want to see Lolth's levels from varying additions.

Not trolling here at all, I personally have no stake in this argument... it's more the 'OMG! I'm such a geek and actually have Shar's classes and levels at hand'. lol

[Varinon]

Lets break down Gandalf's classes.

For the sake of this arguement, we'll assume that Gandalf can only be one (or more) of the classes here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Classes

What do we know about Gandalf? I've only watched the movies so any book references are lost to me. From the movies I get that he is able to:

1: Dual wield a staff and a longsword (Many scenes)
2: Have decent riding skills (Many scenes)
3: Cast light-based spells (I forget where I saw this)
4: Cast invisible force-like spells (Fight with Saruman)
5: Have both good diplomacy skills and high charisma. (Convince people to go on adventure, convince the entire fellowship to go on a suicide mission, people tend to like him)
6: Can cast dispelling spells (Breaks Saruman's control over Rohan)
7: Can either cast lightning spells, or magically redirect lightning (both equally impressive, fight with the Balrog)
8: Either has slow fall or can cast Feather Falling or has a feather falling item (Fall in moria)
9: Is resistant to fire

In D&D, to dual-weild a quarterstaff and a longsword, you need to have the monkey grip feat, or have a small staff/longsword. Since his weapons seem normal sized, we'll assume he has Monkey Grip. Monkey Grip requires +1 BAB and nothing else, which doesn't help us pick a class.

Skill-wise, Gandalf actually doesn't display many skills. He seems very wise, but I am going to assume he has a moderate intelligence (likely 10 or 12). This means he doesn't have very many skill points to spread between his ride skill and his diplomacy skill.

Because of his spellcasting we know that he must be able to cast: Light, Lightning and Dispelling spells. Sorcerer would fit this with it's high charisma. But Sorcerers are poor at fighting, instead I am going to advocate his casting coming from Druid. I advocate that because he seems wise (wisdom for druid casting), and tends to have an affinity for nature, and druid fills all his spellcasting needs. He never shapechanges, but as soon as level 7 Druid he would be able to cast Daylight, Lesser Dispel Magic, Gust of Wind, Resist Energy and Call Lightning. This would suffice for his spellcasting needs (though it's argueable that his force-like spells aren't wind. I don't see any reason they can't be). Additionally, Gandalf says "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn.". Now lotr-experts will know what this means. I don't, but I do know that druids are a secret order. Maybe that helps the druid cause! Druids also recieve the Ride skill, and his animal companion very well could be Shadowfax. As for feather falling, he never actually crashes into the underground lake on-screen. No reason he couldn't transform into a bird and fly off. But if he could shapechange, why didn't he fly off Saruman's tower? He could of used up all his wildshape charges, but that's a stretch. Who knows? Maybe he was afraid he'd get shot out of the sky as a flimsy sparrow?

The only things this leaves is, why is he charismatic, and why can he wield a longsword (which is very anti-druidic). The longsword we'll not worry about. We don't know it's actually made of metal, it could be Crystal or some other fancy material that looks like metal. I propose that his second class is Horizon Walker. He certainly wanders a lot, so lore-wise the class fits him. It has the diplomacy skill, so that handles his charismatic personality. The downside is it does not grant proficiency with longswords. To acquire that he would have to have a different class. This could easily be accomplished with one ranger level, which fits his personality. I additionally support Ranger as ranger 3 qualifies him for the Horizon Walker class (feat-wise) and gives him some innate dual-weilding potential.

Balors are the D&D monster based on Balrogs. A Balor is CR 20, meaning it is intended to be fought as a regular encounter by 4 level 20 characters. Gandalf solos it, but it is a very difficult encounter. We'll assume that this means that Gandalf is level 20, or at least close to it. This is my proposed class split for Gandalf:

(Druid 7/Horizon Walker 10/Ranger 3)
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 22
Cha: 12
Noteable Skills: Diplomacy, Ride
Noteable Feats: Monkey Grip, Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranger auto-granted)

Now the book-readers will come in and tell me I'm all wrong. Oh well.

[Missing_Minds]

In D&D, to dual-weild a quarterstaff and a longsword, you need to have the monkey grip feat, or have a small staff/longsword. Since his weapons seem normal sized, we'll assume he has Monkey Grip. Monkey Grip requires +1 BAB and nothing else, which doesn't help us pick a class.

OR.... the player says "I'm going to fight. Quarterstaff in my left hand and a sword in my right"
DM: But.. but.. the penalties...
player: Screw'm. I'm what level? I'll look freaking badass against the pud. Sides not like I can't buff my abilities before fighting. I mean seriously. They are announcing their arrival. I've got several rounds I can prep myself.


I've got to give you credit though. I never thought druid because of the 'wizard' comments in the books. But in truth in so far as tolkin goes might as well be magic is magic. Also when you consider... who was it. Raderdast? I think it was the Brown one. There was one "wizard" that surrounded himself with animals that he'd talk to. At least in Lotro.

[Varinon]

OR.... the player says "I'm going to fight. Quarterstaff in my left hand and a sword in my right"
DM: But.. but.. the penalties...
player: Screw'm. I'm what level? I'll look freaking badass against the pud. Sides not like I can't buff my abilities before fighting. I mean seriously. They are announcing their arrival. I've got several rounds I can prep myself.


I've got to give you credit though. I never thought druid because of the 'wizard' comments in the books. But in truth in so far as tolkin goes might as well be magic is magic. Also when you consider... who was it. Raderdast? I think it was the Brown one. There was one "wizard" that surrounded himself with animals that he'd talk to. At least in Lotro.

To be honest, the only tolkin wizard that actually struck me as an arcane caster was Saruman, and even he seemed more like a LE Sorcerer than a wizard.

[Bernaise]

There is an old Dragon Magazine article that argued Gandolf was only a 5th Level Wizard.

Linked page reprints the text from that issue of Dragon Magazine
http://z13.invisionfree.com/AshesOfTheIvoryForge/ar/t3.htm

[Chai]

According to Faiths and Panthenons, Shar is...

Rogue 10 / Shadowdancer 10 / Assassin 10 / Sorcerer 9 / Shadow Adept 10 (with divine rank 18 and a huge plethora of god powers on top of that)

Tiamat, I don't have a 3rd ed version of her classes on hand, but they may have been around in 1rst ed when gods had stats/levels and were killable. (In 2nd ed I don't think that they were typically killable or had stats... but their avatars did.) If I recall, in 1rst ed Tiamat (and Bahamut) weren't even gods, just the heads of the dragons and had their stats in the monster manual.
The first adventure where Lolth was introduced had stats for her and the characters were supposed to fight her.... but I have no idea what the classs/levels for the Spinner of Shadows would be, that is unless you want to see Lolth's levels from varying additions.

Not trolling here at all, I personally have no stake in this argument... it's more the 'OMG! I'm such a geek and actually have Shar's classes and levels at hand'. lol

The first stats I saw for Llolth in MM1 she had 66 HP. This was back when the breath weapon for a white dragon was 3D6 damage, save for half.

[Missing_Minds]

The first stats I saw for Llolth in MM1 she had 66 HP. This was back when the breath weapon for a white dragon was 3D6 damage, save for half.
Lolth was also no major deity back then. Heck, even a group of teens and one grade schooler were able to send her down a pit back then. (ah, the old DnD cartoon.)

[brian14]

The first stats I saw for Llolth in MM1 she had 66 HP. This was back when the breath weapon for a white dragon was 3D6 damage, save for half.
It wasn't quite THAT bad :) (Unless you are talking about white dragons in a boxed set before the "A" in "AD&D".) Breath weapon of 1st ed AD&D dragons was not rolled -- it was fixed, and equal to that particular dragon's full hit points; and yes, save for half. Of course, a white dragon back then had at most 56 hit points...

The single biggest difference between 1st and 2nd editions of AD&D was dragons. They were made about 10 times more dangerous -- and quite appropriately.

[FranOhmsford]

If I remember correctly Gandalf was what D&D would term a Demigod!

But using 2nd Ed. {as that's the system I know!} I'd say:

Wizard 31
Druid 18 {Hierophant}
Fighter 17

Dual Classed of course.

Radagast would be:

Druid 31 {Hierophant of course!}.
Wizard 20

Saruman:

Wizard 32

No Sorcerers in 2nd Ed.!