Worthless Classes in DDO

[nokowi]

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?

[AbyssalMage]

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?
If you don't understand your product, things like this happen. It's the equivalent of sending a bunch of Ivy League Businessmen into Hospitals in the 80's so they could increase profits. Someone is always on the losing end.

Good news is maybe if you talk to the Players Council this may find its way onto the developers radar in the next 2-5 years. AI is completely borked right now and I have a feeling it is going to get much worse before it gets close to "better." Look at it this way, when they borked "hearing" on the NPC AI it only took like 9 updates(U15-U20, I think. Too lazy to look up the update thread) before it was fixed. So your assassin will be fixed around U26/27'ish assuming they don't keep laying off developers and switching leads (ok, I just had to have a private chuckle).

But don't despair, it will be fixed soon(tm).

[janave]

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?

You need to play the supported'tm classes, really. Switch now, and pray so your selected class is supported next. :D

I am sure the Devs have amazing coding skillz, and all, still I agree that the design choices are pretty horrible overall.
Everything is so obviously tinkered toward ceirtain'tm classes that its not funny.

In the meanwhile things that add to the gameplay diversity, are being removed.

[BDog77]

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone.

While I agree with you that the aggro mechanic really sucks now, I am playing a first life rogue TWF and I still get double and even sometimes triple kills.

[Nayus]

Playing a bard? =D

[PermaBanned]

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. When did Assassin become a class? What Prestige options does it offer?

[Yalinaa]

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?

What did you expect? After layoffs DDO is low on developers... Quality of life "issues", horrible lag problems, bugs bugs and more bugs... and of course those nasty expl.oits everyone is talking 'bout.... And what Turbine does? Hire a guy to work on... MELEE POWER!!!

They can't surprise me anymore.:)

[Wanesa]

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

Shewind is happy assassin, no problem. Only DC in EE is too high for me.



On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.


This is probably bug or mistake made in last update fixing ranges and i suggest to report it. Mobs around should notice something (their friend has been killed and he made a noise at least), but they still should make DC roll for spot / listen to determine, whether they are able to see you.



TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.


They only fixed the bug



Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.


Still very usefull in groups.

[AtomicMew]

Only DC in EE is too high for me.
and
Still very usefull in groups.

is literally equivalent to saying assassins are completely useless.

[Wipey]

I am a big fan of rogues, never really played one at high level ( five toons, less time and all that ) but always rooted for the "underdog".
There are like 5 people playing "classic" assassin.
The best geared assassin played by uber player is still much less effective than any newb on basically any fotm ranged build ( which is utterly sad and what's wrong with ddo now ).

Fort saves completely out of whack, if there is one class that has to "sacrifice" everything for their DC, it is the rogue.
Relevant raids are big kitefests, full of undead and red named.
Quests are played in the same manner, fps style pew pew pew ( Shiradi, Shuriken Tossers, Monkchers ) or uber DPS brute force Blitz.
CC is super rare.
No aoe at all ( this is a big one imho ).
Relatively weak / unreliable self healing.
Monster detection / aggro shenanigans.
Inherent squishiness. No saves at all.
Proxy nerfed trapping ability. Almost everybody plays some kind of Pally/monk/rogue Evasion or Improved evasion toon.
The biggest thing is not the class weakness itself but how the game changed. Assassin can be okay ish in somewhat "classic" party.

You have few options.
Switch to Shuriken Tosser - seems to be popular. Seen few former assassins that TRed into that.
Get Cleaves and Blitz, forget Assassinate. Some kind of staff build, like every other melee. Preferrably Bladeforged for uber cheese / easy mode.
Or you can play in Fury/Crusader for some improvement.
Or static play with somewhat tanky toon, they are able to withstand a LOT but have horrible single target dps.

I think current ddo is completely rogue unfriendly.

[FAQ]

The thing that really bothers me is the part that mobs see you no matter what after an assassinate attempt. As stated in a post above, they should definitely get a spot check, probably with a bonus, but not instantly see you. It really sucks the fun out of this build, for me at least.

[Chai]

Assassins need some love, but the hyperbole here claiming unplayable and literally useless is a major exaggeration. Most of the issues are in the content itself, and not the class/enhancements etc.

[Bridge_Dweller]

You you needed to become triple-completionist to make a bad toon?

[BDog77]

Mobs around should notice something (their friend has been killed and he made a noise at least),

No, see, I'm an assassin, k? Group of mobs around a campfire, Bob the Hob goes to take a whiz, bam, Bob's dead. I cover up in his cloak, come back to fire, grunt when asked something, pretend to sleep, next mob goes to pee, bam, same thing and so on. Since DDO can't really be this complex, I was glad they made the mechanic of assassinate not breaking stealth, to simulate this, until they didn't.

That said, I play my assassin in a static group, and yeah, he does pretty good....

[Bridge_Dweller]

Assassins need some love, but the hyperbole here claiming unplayable and literally useless is a major exaggeration. Most of the issues are in the content itself, and not the class/enhancements etc.

Can't lower the saves any more than they are already without pushing PMs straight to god-mode.

[grandeibra]

and

is literally equivalent to saying assassins are completely useless.No it's saying the ability "Assassinate" is useless. Several other features of the assassin enhancement tree still work great. Whether the max int 100% pure, oneshot rogue tactic works well on a maxxed toon I have no idea - not my personal playstyle.


never really played one at high level

The best geared assassin played by uber player is still much less effective than any newb on basically any fotm ranged build

I think current ddo is completely rogue unfriendly ... How do you know?

My rogue is Tier 5 Assassin, has almost max gear but is nowhere near a triple completionist and I deffo prefer it to "any newb on basically any fotm build". Both for surviving, killing, and helping others.

So disagree on rogue unfriendly - but when/if epic Orchard is released I will most likely agree with you.

[nokowi]

I am a big fan of rogues, never really played one at high level ( five toons, less time and all that ) but always rooted for the "underdog".
There are like 5 people playing "classic" assassin.
The best geared assassin played by uber player is still much less effective than any newb on basically any fotm ranged build ( which is utterly sad and what's wrong with ddo now ).

Fort saves completely out of whack, if there is one class that has to "sacrifice" everything for their DC, it is the rogue.
Relevant raids are big kitefests, full of undead and red named.
Quests are played in the same manner, fps style pew pew pew ( Shiradi, Shuriken Tossers, Monkchers ) or uber DPS brute force Blitz.
CC is super rare.
No aoe at all ( this is a big one imho ).
Relatively weak / unreliable self healing.
Monster detection / aggro shenanigans.
Inherent squishiness. No saves at all.
Proxy nerfed trapping ability. Almost everybody plays some kind of Pally/monk/rogue Evasion or Improved evasion toon.
The biggest thing is not the class weakness itself but how the game changed. Assassin can be okay ish in somewhat "classic" party.

You have few options.
Switch to Shuriken Tosser - seems to be popular. Seen few former assassins that TRed into that.
Get Cleaves and Blitz, forget Assassinate. Some kind of staff build, like every other melee. Preferrably Bladeforged for uber cheese / easy mode.
Or you can play in Fury/Crusader for some improvement.
Or static play with somewhat tanky toon, they are able to withstand a LOT but have horrible single target dps.

I think current ddo is completely rogue unfriendly.

Assassin WAS one of the most balanced and effective classes in DDO. If you think they can't contribute or are not effective, you never ran with someone who took the time and effort to make one work.
I wish I had screen shots of kill counts with well known players on Sarlona. Yes, you actually have to put effort into making this class work. That's why you don't see many assassins. To address your specific complaints, I will show that a good build can be effective:

Here are my saves:
Fort 52
Reflex 75
Will 45 (with 8 starting Wisdom)

With 2 chances at will saves, an assassin has saves that can handle any EE content.

Healing: I use cocoon and fast life healing almost exclusively. I have 300 hp heal scrolls, but I don't even need them. Yes this involves taking the effort to get decent PRR, blur/displacement items, and 25-30% dodge. I use scrolls to heal OTHER party members and to rez when things go bad. I rarely ever die.

Very few melee characters (except Druid/Monk melee) gets higher kill counts in a group than assassin for much DDO content. The exceptions to this are areas with lots of undead, and really open areas where kiting is employed (TWF range is so small that you can't effectively attack someone running by you, and assassins have slower movement).

It is true that most recent content has focused on undead (it seems like there are more undead dragons than dragons...). Hopefully new content will take a more balanced approach.

[janave]

Can't lower the saves any more than they are already without pushing PMs straight to god-mode.

Yeah PM is pretty broken, but they could do something similar they did to poison proof, add monsters ever CR5 additional save vs death effects, that might help with balancing them. A well played necro is super potent, just gotta use the debuffs, all a nerf to Pale Masters would do is less speed record efficiency, and more diverse playstyle than rotating FoD,CoD,Wail, and epic clickies.

[Chauncey1]

Totally haven't needed any of that in this game.

[nokowi]

Can't lower the saves any more than they are already without pushing PMs straight to god-mode.

Saves are fine. DC 72 (human max) is effective for almost all content (TWF 2 chances + doublestrike chance really helped here). I haven't tested Drow DC 74. Not sure if I can play this game with existing mechanics.

[nokowi]

You you needed to become triple-completionist to make a bad toon?

Why do you assume I have a bad toon? Have you ever ran with me? Please list your characters and server.

[nokowi]

Assassins need some love, but the hyperbole here claiming unplayable and literally useless is a major exaggeration. Most of the issues are in the content itself, and not the class/enhancements etc.

Absolutely wrong. There was no problem with assassin prior to the latest update (aggro changes). Content is wonderful and challenging.

[nokowi]

When did Assassin become a class? What Prestige options does it offer?

A prestige class became a class when they put the word class in it. Stop trolling.

[nokowi]

Shewind is happy assassin, no problem. Only DC in EE is too high for me.



This is probably bug or mistake made in last update fixing ranges and i suggest to report it. Mobs around should notice something (their friend has been killed and he made a noise at least), but they still should make DC roll for spot / listen to determine, whether they are able to see you.



They only fixed the bug



Still very usefull in groups.


Mobs already get spot and listen checks as you sneak around. The longer you remain nearby and the closer you get, the more likely they are to notice you. Any failed assassinate that hits will take you out of sneak. The mechanic was already there. Recent changes make you auto-spotted after your first attack. It is not a bug fix, but a poor attempt to fix how ranged aggro works.

If you want realistic mechanics, I hope you look forward to having your blur/displacement do nothing (without move silently) in future updates.

[Bridge_Dweller]

If you want realistic mechanics, I hope you look forward to having your blur/displacement do nothing (without move silently) in future updates.

Somebody might have just broken their NDA.

[kmoustakas]

I will answer directly to the op, didn't read the in between posts.

There is no such thing as a worthless class. There is a thing called not tier 1 build and it only concerns power level. This comes from a player who had a capped spellsinger for ages pre-enhancement pass and had such a wonderful time running epic elites. Obviously, now said spellsinger has sla's and a 3rd tree to put points in and is 10x more powerful but it's not more fun. It's the same amount of fun. Right now I'm trying an artificer, not a fury/needle artificer. I can still help in epic elites and greatly. What I can't do is carry 5 noobs in a epic elite quest. That's what a tier 1 build ran by a tier 1 player will do.

If you want to be Conan, be Conan. Don't be his noobie sidekick dreaming of waking up the next day and turning into Conan. Or be the sidekick, sharing the loot and fun :)

[Kawai]

/shrug
not finding single prob with Assassin atm.
just went & doubchckd EE as well. :/

would honestly question skills/attributes/gear --whtvr
but to each their own. :/
im no build preacher. thats for lemmings & their wranglers.

hope u find problem soon & fix it.

[droid327]

Why cant the OP simply break LOS and re-enter stealth? That mechanic was introduced when they gave Stealth a mini-overhaul and changed how mob aggro worked.

And that makes perfect sense....if you fail to assassinate your target, or you succeed and draw the attention of his compatriots, you're going to have to cheese it and lose them, then circle back around to finish them off one by one.

[Blackheartox]

You at least can scroll heal, sneak, got scroll mastery, and ability to insta kill, and massive sneak damage multiplied in blitz, evasion.
AS A CLASS ROGUE HAS MANY OPTIONS.

Compare to barbs...
Yea, i can see who is more on the need to be fixed list..
AS A PRESTIGE assasin is ok but the trade mark skill of the tree is weak for solo purpose after the spot change.
And honestly, assasin tree is still a dozen times better then mechanic tree, that one is utter garbage and beside the dshoot and scroll mastery there is apsolutely nothing in that tree.
Acrobat tree is good.

But before claiming its bad, you should first look at trees of palies currently, barb, arties and favored souls and realize there are worse things out there

[Kalimah]

A prestige class became a class when they put the word class in it. Stop trolling.

Hmm I thought they were prestige enhancements to be found in the enhancement tab?

[FAQ]

Why cant the OP simply break LOS and re-enter stealth? That mechanic was introduced when they gave Stealth a mini-overhaul and changed how mob aggro worked.

Yes, it does make sense and I use this tactic on my current Rogue Assassin life. But to me it was just more FUN the way it used to work before. C'est la vie.

[Enoach]

So with this change to spot have you thought about changing your tactic to work with the change?

Instead of trying to assassinate in front of everything else try using bluff or other pulling techniques to get Bob away from Joe, Frank and Ernest. Use corners and blind spots.

[nokowi]

I will answer directly to the op, didn't read the in between posts.

There is no such thing as a worthless class. There is a thing called not tier 1 build and it only concerns power level. This comes from a player who had a capped spellsinger for ages pre-enhancement pass and had such a wonderful time running epic elites. Obviously, now said spellsinger has sla's and a 3rd tree to put points in and is 10x more powerful but it's not more fun. It's the same amount of fun. Right now I'm trying an artificer, not a fury/needle artificer. I can still help in epic elites and greatly. What I can't do is carry 5 noobs in a epic elite quest. That's what a tier 1 build ran by a tier 1 player will do.

If you want to be Conan, be Conan. Don't be his noobie sidekick dreaming of waking up the next day and turning into Conan. Or be the sidekick, sharing the loot and fun :)

If you read the posts you would know that I am saying they broke assassin with recent aggro changes. It was my favorite class. It was never OP. It has severe limitations and takes skill and effort to play effectively.

I don't want to play a class with easy buttons. We have enough of these already. I DO want the signature ability of assassin to be usable and effective.

[Uska]

and

is literally equivalent to saying assassins are completely useless.

Only for solo players and I hate solo and wish it wasn't so possible

[nokowi]

So with this change to spot have you thought about changing your tactic to work with the change?

Instead of trying to assassinate in front of everything else try using bluff or other pulling techniques to get Bob away from Joe, Frank and Ernest. Use corners and blind spots.

Yes I can solo a quest in 12 hours this way. Been there done that (79th life). If there is a particularly difficult area (with pillar to hind behind), this is a great technique. It is not a playable technique through an entire quest by 99.99% of the ddo population, particularly when people are zerging through a quest with master's blitz. What you suggest should be an OPTION but not a REQUIREMENT. It just doesn't work in group play. Nobody is going to stop and wait 30 seconds for you to bluff and kill 1 mob.

[burningwind]

woot can't believe they done this... i mean after all most of the end game content atm are undead which are immune to assassinate...

p.s. sorry to say this, but am so glad i tr out my assassin rogue XD and am very sorry for your loss, totally agree to change em back. /signed

[IronClan]

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

So let me get this right, you body pull a mob or two around a corner and Assassinate one/two* (because yes double assassinate still works just fine) the others down the hall all run down and around the corner after you? Oh no wait you mean you can no longer assassinate mobs in the middle of other mobs in a way that should not be possible without alerting his buddies next to him?

Years ago you could not kill a mob without activating his buddies unless you pulled the mob(s) away from the pack sufficiently this was a viable "sneaky" playstyle (mostly solo oriented but it had great utility in harder content as well) Back when the VON3 boss fight was murder a good body puller could make that fight much more manageable, using a little skill and patience. This playstyle all but completely died because of the mechanic you're complaining about going away and Mob's being super extra stupid.

It may seem like more realism... in fact it's an opportunity to adjust and play a MUCH more interesting nuanced and more stealthy style. Which is exactly what they intended unless I miss my guess (they didn't bring it up with the PC but I think lots of us would have liked it, I know I would have, considering I had fun with a Shadowmage playtyle before the "extra stupid" monster's thing happened and made it completely pointless because I could just range or nuke the monsters and make them come to me one by one). IMO that aspect of the game is MUCH more compelling now. I've actually planned up a Shadowmage again which is now suddenly a viable playstyle once again (years ago it was viable then the Mobs lost their ability to activate based on their buddies taking damage and the whole point of being stealthy was lost. Yes it means you can't assassinate a mob in the middle of his buddies and expect them to stand there dumbly and await their own turn to develop a big red gash in their neck out of thin air, one by one, like target dummies..

One thing you notice over the years on the Forums, players will defend what they were able to do no matter how dumb it was to be able to do it in the first place, no matter how much of a joke it makes the game... Dungeon Alert free zerging up entire populations of monsters to be killed in a couple extended "crit firewalls"... Walking up to supposedly intelligent mobs and killing their buddy in front of them while remaining stealthed and un-aggroed ... some of the worst mechanics that ever plagued this game... Yes they were the fault of Turbine not anticipating the "Lowest common denominator meta game" that players often reduce a game to in their short sighted and self destructive need to marginalize all gameplay into a rote memorized chore... But this does not mean that fixing these dumb loopholes is a bad thing, it just means some stubborn and short sighted players who don't know whats best for their own long term enjoyment of the game have to adjust to "this new thing which is bad"

Just because players find ways to make the game play really stupid and dull and completely free of challenges does not mean when the Developers fix it complaining is merited... adapt, overcome... you'll find the game richer and more entertaining for it.

All that said I would like to see them add a few more tid bits for stealth playstyles and might try to throw some suggestions about that into the mix... It might be cool if Shadowdancer had an ability that was "Assassin god" flavored that allowed you to not alert other mobs in close proximity...

[Paleus]

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.


Ok, this may be a silly question, but isn't there a difference between being "unseen" and "not having aggro?" Sneak attacks/assassinate function off of not having aggro. If you've assassinated one mob and then every mob in the area is attempting to kill you then that could be due to any number of things. 1) You're soloing 2) You havent been able to blind anyone 3) You haven't used bluff/diplo 4) The AI aggro mechanic is whack in that it solely focuses on you. I'll see about testing out tonight to get a feel of the change.

I think the issue people are having is understanding what exactly changed in the normal mechanics. Here's an example of my playstyle, and I will start by saying I am by no means a top-end player. Previously, I could walk up to two mobs and have a good chance of landing an assassinate on both and still be in sneak mode. It sounds like now only one would go down. Next, I would usually expect other mobs in the area to be alerted to their friend's death and/or me wanting to speed things up would anticipate having my sneak broken before assassinate timer wore off. I would then fire off a blind beam (enhancement I think) and/or rely on celestia blinding mobs so I could SA them down quickly. When assassinate timer wore off I would either pick a blinded mob or bluff a mob with high health and then jump at the mob going into sneak mode mid-air to assassinate it. Does that sequence match up to what you used to do, or what about it has changed? It sounds like there was no shaking aggro or an expectation that you would be sneaking the entire quest without a mob noticing you between assassinates.

[Chai]

Can't lower the saves any more than they are already without pushing PMs straight to god-mode.

Its not about the saves at this point IMO. Sure assassin could get a bump to DC by about +3-5 or so but what really needs work is mobs that in no way shape or form would be able to see a rogue with ~100 hide/ms approaching all of a sudden have a red eye above their head and can see you. Stealth is borked and has been ever since they created this new detection system. This is probably the biggest issue right now concerning this topic.

[nokowi]

So let me get this right, you body pull a mob or two around a corner and Assassinate one/two* (because yes double assassinate still works just fine) the others down the hall all run down and around the corner after you? Oh no wait you mean you can no longer assassinate mobs in the middle of other mobs in a way that should not be possible without alerting his buddies next to him?

Years ago you could not kill a mob without activating his buddies unless you pulled the mob(s) away from the pack sufficiently this was a viable "sneaky" playstyle (mostly solo oriented but it had great utility in harder content as well) Back when the VON3 boss fight was murder a good body puller could make that fight much more manageable, using a little skill and patience. This playstyle all but completely died because of the mechanic you're complaining about going away and Mob's being super extra stupid.

It may seem like more realism... in fact it's an opportunity to adjust and play a MUCH more interesting nuanced and more stealthy style. Which is exactly what they intended unless I miss my guess (they didn't bring it up with the PC but I think lots of us would have liked it, I know I would have, considering I had fun with a Shadowmage playtyle before the "extra stupid" monster's thing happened and made it completely pointless because I could just range or nuke the monsters and make them come to me one by one). IMO that aspect of the game is MUCH more compelling now. I've actually planned up a Shadowmage again which is now suddenly a viable playstyle once again (years ago it was viable then the Mobs lost their ability to activate based on their buddies taking damage and the whole point of being stealthy was lost. Yes it means you can't assassinate a mob in the middle of his buddies and expect them to stand there dumbly and await their own turn to develop a big red gash in their neck out of thin air, one by one, like target dummies..

One thing you notice over the years on the Forums, players will defend what they were able to do no matter how dumb it was to be able to do it in the first place, no matter how much of a joke it makes the game... Dungeon Alert free zerging up entire populations of monsters to be killed in a couple extended "crit firewalls"... Walking up to supposedly intelligent mobs and killing their buddy in front of them while remaining stealthed and un-aggroed ... some of the worst mechanics that ever plagued this game... Yes they were the fault of Turbine not anticipating the "Lowest common denominator meta game" that players often reduce a game to in their short sighted and self destructive need to marginalize all gameplay into a rote memorized chore... But this does not mean that fixing these dumb loopholes is a bad thing, it just means some stubborn and short sighted players who don't know whats best for their own long term enjoyment of the game have to adjust to "this new thing which is bad"

Just because players find ways to make the game play really stupid and dull and completely free of challenges does not mean when the Developers fix it complaining is merited... adapt, overcome... you'll find the game richer and more entertaining for it.

All that said I would like to see them add a few more tid bits for stealth playstyles and might try to throw some suggestions about that into the mix... It might be cool if Shadowdancer had an ability that was "Assassin god" flavored that allowed you to not alert other mobs in close proximity...

It is funny that you speculate about my motives for saying something without knowing anything about me... It is a common tactic on the forums when you don't have a valid point to make.

Go to DnD and read about assassin/rogue. They have abilities like "hide in plain sight". That let them sneak attack and remain hidden.

Wow you think assassin was dull and free of challenges prior to this change? Show me the videos of player soloing EE content without being 1-2 steps away from constant death. Look at the completion time. Have you ever played one? Please provide me links where people think Assassin is OP. I will provide 20x as many that complain about the opposite.

Mobs did make a listen spot check when you assassinate. The mechanic was there.

[nokowi]

Its not about the saves at this point IMO. Sure assassin could get a bump to DC by about +3-5 or so but what really needs work is mobs that in no way shape or form would be able to see a rogue with ~100 hide/ms approaching all of a sudden have a red eye above their head and can see you. Stealth is borked and has been ever since they created this new detection system. This is probably the biggest issue right now concerning this topic.

Well said

[Holleyz]

Pure AA Ranger. Something is just not right with them at the moment. I cant figure out what it is yet but something is seriously wrong with them. Assassin Rogue. Cant sneak up on just one guy anymore unless you want the whole entire dungeon on your butt. I don't know anything bout the "mechanics" of the game because I just play for the fun of playing but something is seriously broken with both AA Ranger and Assassin Rogue. My toons on Cannith are Holleyz and Pandorai. Toons on Orien are Holleyz and Pandorai.

[Derana]

and

is literally equivalent to saying assassins are completely useless.

what I thought. No one gives **** about eh completion. People solo that out of boredom or to farm more saga tokens. It's not even worth mentioning..

Also, the Assassin changes are utterly bad. It makes no sense.

p.s. add healbots to the list of completely useless classes. There's no point of being "only a healer".

[nokowi]

what I thought. No one gives **** about eh completion. People solo that out of boredom or to farm more saga tokens. It's not even worth mentioning..

Also, the Assassin changes are utterly bad. It makes no sense.

p.s. add healbots to the list of completely useless classes. There's no point of being "only a healer".



I have mixed feeling on this one. On the one hand, when lfm's were thinning it sure was nice not to have to wait for a healer, and without excluding the squishier classes. I think the recent surge in undead quests/raids is probably to address this issue. Healers can tank/dot many of the undead bosses.

There still quests where healing is desirable (FTP raid, Von 6) but a well equipped or FOTM build party can get by without one for much of DDO.

I would put the healbot under the "unnecessary" category, rather than useless. If anyone's cleric is getting denied to raids, please speak up.

[Seikojin]

Can't lower the saves any more than they are already without pushing PMs straight to god-mode.

I have noticed that rebalance of enhancements tend to fix issues that are late coming type of things; like assassinate and quivering dc's. Hopefully they will add or change assassinate to be a tactical and allow dc boosting things to apply. Same with QP.

[nokowi]

I have noticed that rebalance of enhancements tend to fix issues that are late coming type of things; like assassinate and quivering dc's. Hopefully they will add or change assassinate to be a tactical and allow dc boosting things to apply. Same with QP.

They somewhat recently nerfed QP. I don't see what this would be in their plans.

The issue for assassin/arcane archer is not DC but aggro.

DC 74 assassinate is sufficient for current game content. It is balanced when compared the current necro DC's. No DC ability is balanced compared to bard CDG DC's however.

My argument for monk has always been for a usable DC on QP (with build sacrifices), but a timer on the 12-15 second range.

[grandeibra]

If you read the posts you would know that I am saying they broke assassin with recent aggro changes. It was my favorite class. It was never OP. It has severe limitations and takes skill and effort to play effectively.May be true for the way YOU personally want to play the class. True for many others as well. Doesn't mean the class, or the enhancement tree, is gimp/worthless. Perhaps just not suited to your playstyle or maybe requires even more 100% perfect gear than you may have. I dunno.

Personally I play it in Blitz for solo/6-man, often Fury in raids, love the dps and the stuff like imp evasion, maxed out defensive roll, extra dodge/saves from halfling, lethality, Killer, Execute, UMD etc. And currently with just 2 pally lvls 70+ 90+ 70+ saves in Fury. And many past lives still to go if I feel like it. Fun toon to play imho. Your mileage may vary.

So again - class not gimp. Enhancement tree not gimp. The specific Tier 5 Assassinate ability may be, I dunno.

[nokowi]

May be true for the way YOU personally want to play the class. True for many others as well. Doesn't mean the class, or the enhancement tree, is gimp/worthless. Perhaps just not suited to your playstyle or maybe requires even more 100% perfect gear than you may have. I dunno.

Personally I play it in Blitz for solo/6-man, often Fury in raids, love the dps and the stuff like imp evasion, maxed out defensive roll, extra dodge/saves from halfling, lethality, Killer, Execute, UMD etc. And currently with just 2 pally lvls 70+ 90+ 70+ saves in Fury. And many past lives still to go if I feel like it. Fun toon to play imho. Your mileage may vary.

So again - class not gimp. Enhancement tree not gimp. The specific Tier 5 Assassinate ability may be, I dunno.

I am talking about a character that focuses on the assassinate ability when I mention an assassin and discuss the assassinate ability exclusively in the thread. I have every gear in the game with a max build. DC is 74 on a drow. The tier 5 ability works fine. There is no gear fix to an aggro problem.

Your fury build plays almost exactly like every other fury build, just with different names for the buttons (run up smash buttons). I am glad you enjoy this style of play. You can call it an assassin, but I am talking about something completely different.

[IronClan]

It is funny that you speculate about my motives for saying something without knowing anything about me... It is a common tactic on the forums when you don't have a valid point to make.

Go to DnD and read about assassin/rogue. They have abilities like "hide in plain sight". That let them sneak attack and remain hidden.

Wow you think assassin was dull and free of challenges prior to this change? Show me the videos of player soloing EE content without being 1-2 steps away from constant death. Look at the completion time. Have you ever played one? Please provide me links where people think Assassin is OP. I will provide 20x as many that complain about the opposite.

Mobs did make a listen spot check when you assassinate. The mechanic was there.

HiPS does no such thing in any version of D&D and AD&D I've DM'ed it simply allows you to hide without anything near by but requires (usually) some sort of shadow nearby. (This every version except 4ed including before Assassinate or HiPS was even a thing if 4e Allows this (doubtful) then thats just one more knock on that version of D&D among many). I think you don't know what you're talking about and you're trying to appeal to "higher authority" hoping I was just as unknowledgeable. Furthermore while attempting to appeal to the rules on this one thing you seem to be conveniently forgetting/omitting aspects of the various Assassinate Classes/PrC's over the games history like needing to study the victim for example or early versions that required Surprise to even be able to attempt.

Baring magical means I've never seen a power or PrC or even splatbook variant class of Assassin that wasn't basically a Deity that could kill a monster among his fellows without some serious role playing to justify not alerting them (again without magic or deific powers).

[Indianwiz]

Can't lower the saves any more than they are already without pushing PMs straight to god-mode.

Utter BS. Go play a bard with CDG and Evasion. Stop posting nonsense about PMs and Wizards after that.

[Enoach]

I had always had the impression that the assassin play style was more a minimalistic in kills - Killing only what needs to be killed. Even the OPs example about Bob seemed to indicate killing outside the view of others, but their follow-up seemed to imply they want to be able to assassinate in the heat of battle.

Assassinate: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage from this attack.

So the requirements are:
Being in stealth mode
Target open for sneak attack

So the trick to assassinate in the open on group play is to have someone else have the agro. In solo play it appears the best technique is to avoid fights you don't need to win to complete.

So if anything we can use this as there is a need for a Tank character in a group, it helps the assassin assassinate in the open.

[bbcjoke]

Can't assassins, like, bluff an enemy away from the group and then assassinate him?
Isn't this closer to what they were supposed to do?

[FranOhmsford]

If you read the posts you would know that I am saying they broke assassin with recent aggro changes. It was my favorite class. It was never OP. It has severe limitations and takes skill and effort to play effectively.

I don't want to play a class with easy buttons. We have enough of these already. I DO want the signature ability of assassin to be usable and effective.

There was a time {a very long time} when if you played a Mech or Acrobat you were instantly a gimp!

It got to a point where the ONLY Rogue Pre was Assassin!

You saw Assassins everywhere and on these forums it was de riguer to state that Int was a Dump Stat as Assassinate worked fine no matter what your Int {and of course ANYONE with 1 Rogue level could "supposedly" do every trap in the game!}.


I'm personally extremely glad that we now get to see OTHER Rogues in-game BUT The current Acro-Monk Staff Build is NOT a Rogue {That's a Monk!} and most Rogue Mechs will have Arti levels!

The Devs seem to have decided that the only way to make those prestiges viable is to synergise them with other classes.
Assassin thanks to the DC requirement doesn't synergise - It is Pure or 18/2 required - which I'm guessing is why the Devs are having trouble with it.



P.S. A Pure Henshin Mystic OR A Pure Rogue Acrobat SHOULD be JUST as Powerful as a mix of the two if not stronger!

I can't see any way for Pure Rogue Mech to be equal to 13/7 Rogue/Arti or 13/6/1 Rogue/Arti/Fighter BUT considering the obvious synergy between the two Lore-Wise I would pretty much expect 90% of Eberron Rogue Mechs to be Artificers too!
This simply doesn't work for Acro-Monks - There is NO Synergy in Lore between the two! {Henshin Mystic and Rogue Acrobat just need to be BETTER Pure or splashed/multied with other classes than Mixed together!}.

[nokowi]

HiPS does no such thing in any version of D&D and AD&D I've DM'ed it simply allows you to hide without anything near by but requires (usually) some sort of shadow nearby. (This every version except 4ed including before Assassinate or HiPS was even a thing if 4e Allows this (doubtful) then thats just one more knock on that version of D&D among many). I think you don't know what you're talking about and you're trying to appeal to "higher authority" hoping I was just as unknowledgeable. Furthermore while attempting to appeal to the rules on this one thing you seem to be conveniently forgetting/omitting aspects of the various Assassinate Classes/PrC's over the games history like needing to study the victim for example or early versions that required Surprise to even be able to attempt.

Baring magical means I've never seen a power or PrC or even splatbook variant class of Assassin that wasn't basically a Deity that could kill a monster among his fellows without some serious role playing to justify not alerting them (again without magic or deific powers).

Let me help you out.

1. Assassinate (melee attack, standard action)
2. Hide in Plain Site (hide can be done as a free action, or as a move action after a ranged snipe)

Let me help you out some more
1. Greater Invisibility

There are many ways for an assassin to make a death attack and not be seen in D&D. There is even a ranged death attack.

"Measure the Foe" mimics studying the opponent because you wait while your DC increases.


If you have NEVER had an assassin get away clean from a kill, then there is something wrong with either the DM or the roleplayers.

[nokowi]

Can't assassins, like, bluff an enemy away from the group and then assassinate him?
Isn't this closer to what they were supposed to do?

Bluff is a separate ability from assassinate. It is not a requirement to assassinate.
If this was the only intended method, bluff would be a requirement.

So the answer is Yes and No.

[nokowi]

I had always had the impression that the assassin play style was more a minimalistic in kills - Killing only what needs to be killed. Even the OPs example about Bob seemed to indicate killing outside the view of others, but their follow-up seemed to imply they want to be able to assassinate in the heat of battle.

Assassinate: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage from this attack.

So the requirements are:
Being in stealth mode
Target open for sneak attack

So the trick to assassinate in the open on group play is to have someone else have the agro. In solo play it appears the best technique is to avoid fights you don't need to win to complete.

So if anything we can use this as there is a need for a Tank character in a group, it helps the assassin assassinate in the open.

All you have to do (in D&D) is study the target for 3 rounds while unobserved and make a successful sneak attack. There is no reason an assassin needs to minimize kills, other than roleplaying reasons (which would be shared by all party members).

"Being in stealth mode" is the problem with the new aggro system. There is no reason a mob should autospot.

[Chai]

HiPS does no such thing in any version of D&D and AD&D I've DM'ed it simply allows you to hide without anything near by but requires (usually) some sort of shadow nearby. (This every version except 4ed including before Assassinate or HiPS was even a thing if 4e Allows this (doubtful) then thats just one more knock on that version of D&D among many). I think you don't know what you're talking about and you're trying to appeal to "higher authority" hoping I was just as unknowledgeable. Furthermore while attempting to appeal to the rules on this one thing you seem to be conveniently forgetting/omitting aspects of the various Assassinate Classes/PrC's over the games history like needing to study the victim for example or early versions that required Surprise to even be able to attempt.

Baring magical means I've never seen a power or PrC or even splatbook variant class of Assassin that wasn't basically a Deity that could kill a monster among his fellows without some serious role playing to justify not alerting them (again without magic or deific powers).

Hiding in plain site follows all other hiding rules, except the player character can hide without having to break line of site of the entity they are hiding from first. I believe they use the wording "while being observed". Without this, the player character would have to go around a corner (breaking line of site) then hide, or something similar.

People abused the shinola out of this in NWN to the point of hilarity.

In DDO - we dont even need to be "hidden". The two requirements are being "in stealth" which is not the same as being hidden (the mob can still see you and assassinate can still work), and the attack has to be a sneak attack.

I can bluff the mob, or the mob can be blinded by radiance - and i can just hit stealth (mob still sees me/is aware of me) and hit assassinate, and kill it. I dont need to be in the "hidden state" - just stealth needs to be active.

This is the part that does not mimic all of the editions rules - the "has to be from stealth" part.

[Gizeh]

Can't assassins, like, bluff an enemy away from the group and then assassinate him?
Isn't this closer to what they were supposed to do?

No, because if you bluff a mob to pull him he becomes aware of your presence (even though he can't attack right away if he doesn't see you), and assassinate only works if the mob is unaware.

After trying it out a bit I have to say Turbine really effed assassinate up.

Mobs that have their backs turned to the assassin see him immediately after an assassination. As a matter of fact I had mobs seeing (not hearing, but seeing) my character AROUND A CORNER after an assassination.

I really hope that this will be fixed soon, as this is utterly ridiculous.

[Chauncey1]

There was a time {a very long time} when if you played a Mech or Acrobat you were instantly a gimp!

It got to a point where the ONLY Rogue Pre was Assassin!

You saw Assassins everywhere and on these forums it was de riguer to state that Int was a Dump Stat as Assassinate worked fine no matter what your Int {and of course ANYONE with 1 Rogue level could "supposedly" do every trap in the game!}.


I'm personally extremely glad that we now get to see OTHER Rogues in-game BUT The current Acro-Monk Staff Build is NOT a Rogue {That's a Monk!} and most Rogue Mechs will have Arti levels!

The Devs seem to have decided that the only way to make those prestiges viable is to synergise them with other classes.
Assassin thanks to the DC requirement doesn't synergise - It is Pure or 18/2 required - which I'm guessing is why the Devs are having trouble with it.



P.S. A Pure Henshin Mystic OR A Pure Rogue Acrobat SHOULD be JUST as Powerful as a mix of the two if not stronger!

I can't see any way for Pure Rogue Mech to be equal to 13/7 Rogue/Arti or 13/6/1 Rogue/Arti/Fighter BUT considering the obvious synergy between the two Lore-Wise I would pretty much expect 90% of Eberron Rogue Mechs to be Artificers too!
This simply doesn't work for Acro-Monks - There is NO Synergy in Lore between the two! {Henshin Mystic and Rogue Acrobat just need to be BETTER Pure or splashed/multied with other classes than Mixed together!}.

And for a time, he was gimp, but mainly because of very low hp's. His DPS was pretty ok for a wrench turner.

[nokowi]

Hiding in plain site follows all other hiding rules, except the player character can hide without having to break line of site of the entity they are hiding from first. I believe they use the wording "while being observed". Without this, the player character would have to go around a corner (breaking line of site) then hide, or something similar.

People abused the shinola out of this in NWN to the point of hilarity.

In DDO - we dont even need to be "hidden". The two requirements are being "in stealth" which is not the same as being hidden (the mob can still see you and assassinate can still work), and the attack has to be a sneak attack.

I can bluff the mob, or the mob can be blinded by radiance - and i can just hit stealth (mob still sees me/is aware of me) and hit assassinate, and kill it. I dont need to be in the "hidden state" - just stealth needs to be active.

This is the part that does not mimic all of the editions rules - the "has to be from stealth" part.

Blind is a condition that allows sneak attacks. That part is consistent with D&D (assassinate a blinded creature).

The key differences in DDO are the words "aggro" vs "unobserved"

1. The main thing NOT consistent with D&D is that DDO chose to implement "not having aggro" as a condition allowing sneak attacks rather than try to implement flanking/flat-footed rules.
2. The other detail that is different is that you WAIT for a 6 second timer to assassinate again rather than STUDY a specific opponent for a period of time.

Notice that the 2 key differences are for efficient calculation reasons

You do not just hit stealth standing in front of a guy and assassinate them. You can't get aggro (you can run over, sneak, and assassinate a creature someone else is attacking).

A rogue already has to spend the time to approach an enemy, so typically the "study an opponent" D&D condition would have been met. HIPS or invisibility or greater invisibility would allow you to do this tactic in D&D.


The DDO implementation is VERY GOOD! considering how different many other abilities are from D&D. (with the exception of the auto-aggro from last update).

The fix is so easy here. Revert back to the old aggro system until something is developed that works reasonably. (--> mobs around a corner not spotting you, etc)

[Sam1313]

what I thought. No one gives **** about eh completion. People solo that out of boredom or to farm more saga tokens. It's not even worth mentioning..

Also, the Assassin changes are utterly bad. It makes no sense.

p.s. add healbots to the list of completely useless classes. There's no point of being "only a healer".

I very much welcome "only a Healer" in my party when I am on my wizard. He is not a palemaster he is a human wizard who bleeds....a lot. I actually depend on anyone who has the cleric or favored soul symbol next to their name for heals. My wizard is on his 4th life as a wizard and is currently at level 9. I would very much like to take him to level 28 as a traditional caster (you know the old timey wizards who are NOT pale masters) But to do that I really do need "just a Healer" in the party to keep his bum alive. The problem I have ran into on his current life is that everyone expects you to be able to self heal. That's cool and all but house K potions only heal you for so much. I respect and welcome the healers that actually do heal, they are few and far between and that is a sad thing.

[PermaBanned]

{My Wizard} is not a palemaster he is a human wizard who bleeds....a lot. I actually depend on anyone who has the cleric or favored soul symbol next to their name for heals. <snip> ...I really do need "just a Healer" in the party to keep his bum alive. You are a brave soul to post such heresy on the DDO forums. I salute you (and run off to make some popcorn for what's to come).

[FranOhmsford]

You are a brave soul to post such heresy on the DDO forums. I salute you (and run off to make some popcorn for what's to come).

I'll never understand how fleshy archmages were allowed by Turbine to become persona non grata but it happened!

We've heard it all before - You can't self heal you're gimp, a dead caster is no use to anyone etc. etc.

BUT

The Huge advantages of WF and PM basically made Fleshy AMs into 3rd Class citizens!

Fleshy AMs were less wanted in high lvl groups than 200hp Rogue Mechs or Acrobats!
Less well liked than HotD Paladins or Deepwood Snipers!
More hated than FvSs who wouldn't heal anyone!


I salute anyone willing to play a Fleshy AM and join PuGs!

[BDog77]

Even the OPs example about Bob seemed to indicate killing outside the view of others, but their follow-up seemed to imply they want to be able to assassinate in the heat of battle.

Just to clarify, Bob was my example. I am not the OP.

I agree with the rest of your post. Assassinate in the heat of battle with a group is extremely easy (kinda make my buddies mad, actually).

[droid327]

He is not a palemaster he is a human wizard who bleeds....a lot. I actually depend on anyone who has the cleric or favored soul symbol next to their name for heals.

Just curious...why cant you spend the 7 points in PM just for Zombie Form (and +30 HP) and be able to DA/NEB between fights? That's not really "being a PM" as much as just taking advantage of an available way to self-heal.

Or heck, Wiz have the INT for UMD, even if its cross class...scroll Heal or Cure spells with WSM

[Rykka]

I very much welcome "only a Healer" in my party when I am on my wizard. He is not a palemaster he is a human wizard who bleeds....a lot. I actually depend on anyone who has the cleric or favored soul symbol next to their name for heals. My wizard is on his 4th life as a wizard and is currently at level 9. I would very much like to take him to level 28 as a traditional caster (you know the old timey wizards who are NOT pale masters) But to do that I really do need "just a Healer" in the party to keep his bum alive. The problem I have ran into on his current life is that everyone expects you to be able to self heal. That's cool and all but house K potions only heal you for so much. I respect and welcome the healers that actually do heal, they are few and far between and that is a sad thing.

I favor human, flesh and blood, for my D&D MagicUsers (actually for all characters). I sometimes wish DDO wizards could "Use Magical Devices" or had a healing spell. But, the fluff of wizards is that they don't heal flesh and blood and UMD isn't supposed to be their bailiwick either. My PnP wizards didn't have healing either and often didn't kowtow to the Cleric in the group preferring other, sometimes convoluted, means to stay alive. Can't do stuff like that in a video game tho...

In that spirit (it's a video game), I'm OK with using PM, even though I really don't care for the ability to simply toggle undeath on a non-evil character. At least I don't have to play a robot.

I would say that IF arcanes got self healing it would need to fit the fluff, like maybe a feat with a stiff level minimum (like 12) and prereq:Improved Spell Focus, that allowed them to heal (edit: a small percentage of the damage) from a specific damage type instead of pos, neg, or repair energy.

[FranOhmsford]

Just curious...why cant you spend the 7 points in PM just for Zombie Form (and +30 HP) and be able to DA/NEB between fights? That's not really "being a PM" as much as just taking advantage of an available way to self-heal.

How about "Because I don't want to be a Zombie!"

And why should every fleshy AM be forced into becoming a Zombie or accept significantly under-powered self healing and absolutely no chance of any healing from divines in party because of the "you're a wizard - you can self heal" attitude that's been prevalent in game for almost as long as I've been playing DDO!

[FranOhmsford]

I would say that IF arcanes got self healing it would need to fit the fluff, like maybe a feat with a stiff level minimum (like 12) and prereq:Improved Spell Focus, that allowed them to heal from a specific damage type instead of pos, neg, or repair energy.

From the AD&D Complete Book of Necromancers:

Empathic Wound Transfer (Necromancy)
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 1 round
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Saving Throw: None
By casting this spell, a wizard transfers some of the wounds of another creature to him- or herself, thereby
partially curing the recipient. Up to 2 hp per level of the caster may be transferred, so a 10th level necromancer
could cure an ally of a 20-hp wound (but the wizard will then take 20 hp in damage).
The hit point loss could have originally resulted from physical attacks, certain poisons, spell effects, diseases,
or curses (except those that cannot be removed by the remove curse spell). This spell cannot restore amputated
limbs, drained life levels, or lost life. It also cannot undo any continuously acting poison or disease. The spell
only temporarily reverses such harm, which will then continue to affect the victim.

Obviously changes would have to be made to suit DDO's HP Bloat compared to PnP BUT There were ways for Wizards to not only heal themselves but to heal other "LIVING" allies in PnP even way back in 2nd Ed.

BTW that was a 4th Lvl spell.

[Rykka]

Lest someone think I'd recommend a buff to arcanes, lol, no.

After the scheduled classes get their buffs Id like to see some revision to ranger on the upper levels of heroic.

[FranOhmsford]

Lest someone think I'd recommend a buff to arcanes, lol, no.

After the scheduled classes get their buffs Id like to see some revision to ranger on the upper levels of heroic.

It's not a buff to "arcanes" that's needed but specifically to Archmages!

You know...The Prestige that ONLY Warforged are allowed to take!


Oh and even if that spell does happen to be necromancy - It's not self healing! It's a way for a PM to help her less blessed {sorry - cursed} sister!

[Rykka]

From the AD&D Complete Book of Necromancers:

Empathic Wound Transfer (Necromancy)
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 1 round
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Saving Throw: None
By casting this spell, a wizard transfers some of the wounds of another creature to him- or herself, thereby
partially curing the recipient. Up to 2 hp per level of the caster may be transferred, so a 10th level necromancer
could cure an ally of a 20-hp wound (but the wizard will then take 20 hp in damage).
The hit point loss could have originally resulted from physical attacks, certain poisons, spell effects, diseases,
or curses (except those that cannot be removed by the remove curse spell). This spell cannot restore amputated
limbs, drained life levels, or lost life. It also cannot undo any continuously acting poison or disease. The spell
only temporarily reverses such harm, which will then continue to affect the victim.

Obviously changes would have to be made to suit DDO's HP Bloat compared to PnP BUT There were ways for Wizards to not only heal themselves but to heal other "LIVING" allies in PnP even way back in 2nd Ed.

BTW that was a 4th Lvl spell.

I like the idea of an arcane damage sympathy better, but I don't think arcanes deserve any help in the current system.

[FranOhmsford]

I like the idea of an arcane damage sympathy better, but I don't think arcanes deserve any help in the current system.

Arcanes as in Pale Masters or Warforged anything DON'T!

Arcanes as in Fleshy Archmages definitely DO!


And even if Turbine did create a Necromantic Self Heal that healed "Living Flesh" that would hardly be a buff to PMs who are never out of form anyway!

[Sam1313]

Just curious...why cant you spend the 7 points in PM just for Zombie Form (and +30 HP) and be able to DA/NEB between fights? That's not really "being a PM" as much as just taking advantage of an available way to self-heal.

Or heck, Wiz have the INT for UMD, even if its cross class...scroll Heal or Cure spells with WSM

Because so many people run pale masters now that hardly anyone runs a full fledge Human Archmage. Yes its a challenge. Yes Samjr dies a lot but that's part of the challenge and most of the fun is trying to stay alive lol. Besides that NOTHING can heal you like a full blown cleric or favored soul that knows what they are doing. What point is it to try to be an Human arch mage if your just going to spend points in the pale master tree? As for healing scrolls Samjr cannot use them because he is a Pure Wizard. The UMD is useless for him as well because he is a Pure Wizard. Yes I could multiclass him to be able to use scrolls or UMD but Why? Samjr is a wizard he nukes things. Clerics heal things, that's how its supposed to be. Its great that the game gives players the diversity to multiclass so they can self heal or what not so they can solo most of the quests, but sometimes I like to play the traditional D&D where everyone in the party has to contribute in order to achieve the end goal. If one person does not do their part then the quest is failed.
On Friday or Saturday nights when we all used to sit down at the kitchen table and order pizza and drink soda drinks and game on there was no one person who "soloed" the adventure. It took everyone in the party working together to get the adventure/quest/campaign done.

[nokowi]

Because so many people run pale masters now that hardly anyone runs a full fledge Human Archmage. Yes its a challenge. Yes Samjr dies a lot but that's part of the challenge and most of the fun is trying to stay alive lol. Besides that NOTHING can heal you like a full blown cleric or favored soul that knows what they are doing. What point is it to try to be an Human arch mage if your just going to spend points in the pale master tree? As for healing scrolls Samjr cannot use them because he is a Pure Wizard. The UMD is useless for him as well because he is a Pure Wizard. Yes I could multiclass him to be able to use scrolls or UMD but Why? Samjr is a wizard he nukes things. Clerics heal things, that's how its supposed to be. Its great that the game gives players the diversity to multiclass so they can self heal or what not so they can solo most of the quests, but sometimes I like to play the traditional D&D where everyone in the party has to contribute in order to achieve the end goal. If one person does not do their part then the quest is failed.
On Friday or Saturday nights when we all used to sit down at the kitchen table and order pizza and drink soda drinks and game on there was no one person who "soloed" the adventure. It took everyone in the party working together to get the adventure/quest/campaign done.

If you are going fleshy, you could consider 1/2 elf cleric dilettante. This lets you scroll self heal without UMD. I used this on several TR builds.
You can get enough UMD to self heal even if it is a cross-class skill (tome, UMD item, Cha score, past lives, GH, etc but it is quite a bit of work)
DDO has favored WF due to the ebberon setting.
You can also get Epic Past Life stance that will heal over time (works in heroics), along with the usual Rejuvination Cocoon at epic levels.

[Rykka]

It's not a buff to "arcanes" that's needed but specifically to Archmages!

You know...The Prestige that ONLY Warforged are allowed to take!


Oh and even if that spell does happen to be necromancy - It's not self healing! It's a way for a PM to help her less blessed {sorry - cursed} sister!

You could be right, but my first life 28pt humie is Archmage as his primary, PM as secondary and he isn't hurting at all. Well that is unless those invisible wight divines nail him with a light spell. lol

[Rykka]

Arcanes as in Pale Masters or Warforged anything DON'T!

Arcanes as in Fleshy Archmages definitely DO!


And even if Turbine did create a Necromantic Self Heal that healed "Living Flesh" that would hardly be a buff to PMs who are never out of form anyway!

It would be a disincentive to run PM, cause you'd just use human heal amp instead. Though it's theoretically possible that you could make it so human AMs were coequal with drow PMs and robots. That wouldn't suck.

[FranOhmsford]

It would be a disincentive to run PM, cause you'd just use human heal amp instead. Though it's theoretically possible that you could make it so human AMs were coequal with drow PMs and robots. That wouldn't suck.

Not just Human!

My 1st DDO Character was an Elf Wizard Archmage {with 2 Rogue Levels}.

He's currently on a Druid life but one day he'll be completionist Elf AM/EK with NOTHING in PM!

[9001]

I don't think the way most people play DDO is conductive to stealth mechanics, and because of that the actual stealther demographic is somewhat smaller than it could be. Assassination feels really out of place in ddo's fast paced kill run kill dynamic, and I don't think that is going to change any time soon (though I would welcome a fix for this, and really ANY bug/bad stuff that makes a style unplayable). About the only place to get a reliable group for stealthing would be (I would imagine) forming a static group, or not grouping at all (which is obviously not very good seeing how rogue sneak attack and assasin work in DDO. A shame, I would love to see DDO pick up again, would be nice to see some new life in the development of the game (though I AM very happy with the fact that they added the player council, I still feel like DDO will be severely limited by how much money the game can rake in.)

[Indianwiz]

I like the idea of an arcane damage sympathy better, but I don't think arcanes deserve any help in the current system.

It is exactly because of people like you that arcanes are running around in Shiradi ED casting Lvl 1 and 4 spells. And I am sure there is not a single person in PC advocating more spells, epic spells and other defensive abilities, hence the pathetic state of arcanes continues.

[Robbenklopper]

Every (.....) class is sacred.
Every class is great.
If a class is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

:D

[aylard82]

I still dont get the comparison between pnp d&d and DDO, they are different games based on different rulesets.

DDO "as-is" it's based on world of warcraft, not on d&d 3.5, stop pretending.

As for the assassin, why do you feel so useless? probably because you play with other people who just want to zerg? Get some friends and play for fun, not to beat some silly completion record.

[Silverleafeon]

Good news is maybe if you talk to the Players Council this may find its way onto the developers radar,,,

We do have a thread there asking the devs to work on Assasin DCs and I quote a lot of you and bumped the thread up.

[GreataxeUser]

This is my addition to the list and I played as one with my main and got him to level 22 and said forget it and was not pleased with it! A lot of things need to be changed in order for this class and race combination to be a fun, viable and playable meta and also help out, "the party".

Dwarf Barbarians with the, Throw your weight around enhancement:

Obviously it is the best strategy to take CON at every opportunity while leveling up and with gear and CON that goes with it and all increasing enhancements for CON at every possible chance it is offered! Having a lot of hitpoints and making it so the CON stat is used for damage as well as hitpoints is a fail atm and not worth the time to invest into playing this type of character and here is why:

1. They weigh as much as a human and are heavy yes, but it is mostly muscle and they get trapped in webs every time. LMAO Fail!
2. Same as number (1.)'s description but this time it is BEAR TRAPS and the annoyance of it all! Trapped in a bear trap(s) and cannot get out, period! They must wait for the timer of the bear trap to expire. Fail just because the enhancement, Throw you weight around turns CON into a form of Strength for a Dwarf. This is embarrassing for a Pure Dwarf Barbarian and makes no sense for the meta and stereo type for this class and race combo to fail every single Bear Trap they come into for the rest of their life! LOL!
3. They cannot interact with any npcs or items that have a list to choose from. For example: Slave collars and the like and items and runes that require high strength to overcome, etc. There is nothing a Dwarf Barbarian can interact because it simply was overlooked and made this class useless to the party in that regard.
4. It is a contradiction for a Dwarf to be considered stocky and strong, yet weak at the same time with a ton of hitpoints and a fortitude save that goes through the roof is proof positive they are healthy, but are weak for some reason. This just doesn't seem right.


This Class and Race combo is no fun to play even though it has the most Hitpoints in the game, big woop!

Thanks for reading.

Edit: Please see Reason for Editing, I also edited my first few sentences to be more clear and help with the clarity on what I mean.

[FranOhmsford]

This is my addition to the list and I played as one with my main and got him to level 22 and said forget it and was not pleased with it and some things need to be changed for this class and race combination to work.

Dwarf Barbarians with the, Throw your weight around enhancement:

Obviously it is the best strategy to take CON at every opportunity while leveling up and with gear and CON that goes with it and all increasing enhancements for CON at every possible chance it is offered! Having a lot of hitpoints and making it so the CON stat is used for damage as well as hitpoints is a fail atm and not worth the time to invest into playing this type of character and here is why:

1. They weigh as much as a human and are heavy yes, but it is mostly muscle and they get trapped in webs every time. LMAO Fail!
2. Same as number (1.)'s description but this time it is BEAR TRAPS and the annoyance of it all! Trapped in a bear trap(s) and cannot get out, period! They must wait for the timer of the bear trap to expire. Fail just because the enhancement, Throw you weight around turns CON into a form of Strength for a Dwarf. This is embarrassing for a Pure Dwarf Barbarian and makes no sense for the meta and stereo type for this class and race combo to fail every single Bear Trap they come into for the rest of their life! LOL!
3. They cannot interact with any npcs or items that have a list to choose from. For example: Slave collars and the like and items and runes that require high strength to overcome, etc. There is nothing a Dwarf Barbarian can interact because it simply was overlooked and made this class useless to the party in that regard.
4. It is a contradiction for a Dwarf to be considered stocky and strong, yet weak at the same time with a ton of hitpoints and a fortitude save that goes through the roof is proof positive they are healthy, but are weak for some reason. This just doesn't seem right.


This Class and Race combo is no fun to play even though it has the most Hitpoints in the game, big woop!

Thanks for reading.

The Stat and Skill Requirements in Forgotten Realms content are off the scale!

Basically if you're not maxed in that stat or skill you won't get it {Heroic High Road Slayer my Lvl 25 Monk with 39 Wis {in Leg Dread} couldn't get the Dia Depthcaria Opt till I changed to Ocean Stance and hit Touch the Void Dragon {taking me to 46.}

How exactly is a Lvl 18 character supposed to have Wis this high?

The only other stat option was Charisma - Again highly unlikely for a Heroic character to have 40+ Cha!

19 UMD wasn't enough either and I knew not to bother with Search with my score at 30!



I'm truly fed up of the Max your main stat or else dynamic in DDO - Every Stat and Skill requirement in FR Content needs to come down by 10 pts minimum!
EDIT: EXCEPT DISABLE!

[Rykka]

I still dont get the comparison between pnp d&d and DDO, they are different games based on different rulesets.

DDO "as-is" it's based on world of warcraft, not on d&d 3.5, stop pretending.

As for the assassin, why do you feel so useless? probably because you play with other people who just want to zerg? Get some friends and play for fun, not to beat some silly completion record.

No, WoW is based on Warhammer. DDO is based on D&D. Totally different. :)

[FranOhmsford]

No, WoW is based on Warhammer. DDO is based on D&D. Totally different. :)

WoW is NOT based on Warhammer otherwise there'd be Skaven running around!

WoW is World of Warcraft - Another beast entirely!

[cronusdeathspell]

WoW is NOT based on Warhammer otherwise there'd be Skaven running around!

WoW is World of Warcraft - Another beast entirely!


http://kotaku.com/5929161/how-warcraft-was-almost-a-warhammer-game-and-how-that-saved-wow

[FranOhmsford]

http://kotaku.com/5929161/how-warcraft-was-almost-a-warhammer-game-and-how-that-saved-wow

From said link:

"Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft, but a combination of factors, including a lack of traction on business terms and a fervent desire on the part of virtually everyone else on the development team (myself included) to control our own universe nixed any potential for a deal.

ART STYLE!

[nokowi]

Why cant the OP simply break LOS and re-enter stealth? That mechanic was introduced when they gave Stealth a mini-overhaul and changed how mob aggro worked.

And that makes perfect sense....if you fail to assassinate your target, or you succeed and draw the attention of his compatriots, you're going to have to cheese it and lose them, then circle back around to finish them off one by one.

Because one lag spike, you get bumped and you have aggro of 9 mobs. There is no breaking line of sight and re-entering. The problem is being penalized for not doing anything wrong. Check out my post of changes to aggro system if you want to see a fix.

[nokowi]

I still dont get the comparison between pnp d&d and DDO, they are different games based on different rulesets.

DDO "as-is" it's based on world of warcraft, not on d&d 3.5, stop pretending.

As for the assassin, why do you feel so useless? probably because you play with other people who just want to zerg? Get some friends and play for fun, not to beat some silly completion record.

Because the fun of assassin is controlling your environment through good decision making and intelligent play. Do I leave stealth and attack a mob, or wait in the shadows? Where do I move to next, who is the most threating mob to take out, etc. Should I heal, rez, etc. Having lag spikes take you out of aggro is the equivalent of fighting a dozen mobs in a red alert. It slows down your progress that much. And it is not based on any faulty gameplay of mine.

I would suggest every class lose all counters, reset all progress towards epic moments whenever they miss a target or accidentally bump a target due to lag. You would not enjoy it.

[nokowi]

I don't think the way most people play DDO is conductive to stealth mechanics, and because of that the actual stealther demographic is somewhat smaller than it could be. Assassination feels really out of place in ddo's fast paced kill run kill dynamic, and I don't think that is going to change any time soon (though I would welcome a fix for this, and really ANY bug/bad stuff that makes a style unplayable). About the only place to get a reliable group for stealthing would be (I would imagine) forming a static group, or not grouping at all (which is obviously not very good seeing how rogue sneak attack and assasin work in DDO. A shame, I would love to see DDO pick up again, would be nice to see some new life in the development of the game (though I AM very happy with the fact that they added the player council, I still feel like DDO will be severely limited by how much money the game can rake in.)

Assassin does have its unique challenges. Let me just say that it is very playable but it requires
1. DC based gear
2. understanding of mobs
3. understanding of what other players will do
4. PRR, displace, dodge to survive when you leave stealth
5. Realizing you are awesome at some things but have limitations (undead dps, self healing, etc)

Most players can't or don't want to deal with all of these, so assassin is a niche class.

The problem is that the current implementation is that the aggro system penalizes assassins even when they do nothing wrong. Right now I can walk up to a group of mobs close together and not even get an assassinate roll, without being spotted. This now happens about 10-20% of the time. It never happened prior to the aggro changes. If lag happens, you often find yourself with 9 mobs on you. In the past lag was annoying, but you generally only had to deal with the 1 mob that bumped you. You could kill them and re-enter stealth. Good luck hiding from 9 mobs at once.

Dev's have expressed a desire to make skills useful. You see this in spellpower for casters. My 117 hide score has NO effect on whether I am seen after an assassinate attempt. It should matter.

Basically the dev's created an aggro system for ranged toons that will cause some of the mobs to go after the archers/throwers, but this aggro system causes ALL mobs to go after an assassin. I assume the new system is distance based and the close proximity of assassins causes much more aggro than anyone else.

The ONLY method that works consistently right now is to wait for other players to get aggro, and to chase kited mobs at your slow sneak speed (slower than the players are running around). When you finally reach a mob, your limited TWF range causes you to miss much of the time. These have always been issues, but in the past, the assassin had the option to make the first move (position and kill a mob before the party gets aggro). In the past this let you be at the front of the party initially, call out traps, and to have a chance to keep caught up as the party progresses with your slow sneak speed. The front of the party is the WORST place to be now because 1. all the mobs run past you (good luck hitting that moving target with TWF) or 2. you get bumped and ALL the mobs aggro on you. Making the first strike is not an effective option anymore. Right now a FAILED assassinate attempt has the exact same effect as a successful one (all mobs aggro on you if the party has no aggro, or all mobs ignore you if the party does have aggro). This is not a good system.

Keep in mind that failed assassinate attempts, bumping mobs, etc have ALWAYS brought you out of sneak. Playing an assassin effectively is not simply running around without ever being attacked. It is (was) about making good risk vs reward decisions. A failed DC would aggro all mobs on you if you made the first strike. Now a successful attempt does the exact same thing. This is not fun.

[nokowi]

We do have a thread there asking the devs to work on Assasin DCs and I quote a lot of you and bumped the thread up.

Being the OP, I would suggest the council look at what aggro is doing to assassin instead of bumping DC's. DDO will be insanely boring if there a lots of classes running around with auto-success insta kills. At the least, this type of toon (DC insta kill) should require lots of build sacrifice so that insta-kill is not the only effective build in the game.

Stormhorn's DC's could be dropped by 1-3 and assassin DC's would be appropriate.

Level 30 gear should provide a DC bump with a corresponding increase in mob DC's for new quests.

The new cat-in-the-bag is having some players with ability based DC's and some with skill based DC's. Please have the players council think about if this is a good idea. (Skills increase 3x faster than ability DC's)

[nokowi]

I still dont get the comparison between pnp d&d and DDO, they are different games based on different rulesets.

DDO "as-is" it's based on world of warcraft, not on d&d 3.5, stop pretending.

As for the assassin, why do you feel so useless? probably because you play with other people who just want to zerg? Get some friends and play for fun, not to beat some silly completion record.

This is the fundamental problem with the forums. Dev's listen to people who don't understand a class rather than those that actually play it. The current system actually works when someone zergs ahead. So you are exactly wrong. In EN/EH runs, somebody zergs ahead and the mobs always have aggro. In this type of play, there is no penalty for a failed assassinate and hide and move silently are not needed.

The problem happens when people actually play in a group, when the party wants traps disabled etc. This typically happens in EE runs, but also in some EN & EH runs where people work as a team. Prior to U22, the ideal position for an assassin was just ahead of the party. They could take out a pesky caster assuming they made their hide/move silently and assassinate DC checks. They could get a trap disabled before the party had to stop and wait. Hide skill mattered, Move Silently skill mattered. Assassinate DC mattered. Assassin was most effective at the front of the party because mobs were standing still, and you didn't have to try and chase down moving mobs at slow speed with TWF (this SUCKS, you miss at least 1/2 the time). There used to be a high risk vs reward for having good skills and a good DC because any failure meant all mobs aggro'd on you.

With the current system (U22), being in the front of the party is the worst possible play to be. Hide/Move Silent don't matter because you are auto-spotted if you assassinate. Assassinate DC doesn't matter because you are spotted whether you succeed or whether you fail. If you are at the front of the party after U22, you watch all the mobs run past you, miss your assassinate attempt on moving targets, deal with lag as all of the caster shoot of their effects, etc. The only place you can be with the new system is at the BACK of the party. In the back of the party, you deal with the frustration of chasing down kited mobs at slow speed, missing kited mobs with TWF, and generally lagging behind the rest of the party. Traps are not done when the party gets to them.

I hear some of you saying that 2x assassinate still works. Yes if you sit at the back of the party and wait for aggro it does. For me, the fun of assassin was the high risk vs reward of being at the front of the party. Good decision making lead to increased success. Failure lead to possible death. U22 assassin is simply the process of chasing down kited mobs, or running up to a mob that is standing still and fighting, and hitting the assassinate button, with no penalty for missing. There is no danger. This plays exactly like every other melee toon (run up hit buttons), except chasing down kited mobs is even more difficult at slow speed, and your premier ability misses due to TWF use.

In U22 Solo-ability for assassin went from bad to mind numingly boring. The only option now for using assassinate solo-mode is bluffing opponents 1 at a time (when there is a corner to hide around). This takes about 30 seconds per opponent (get into position bluff, wait for them to run to you, etc) and takes 2-4x longer to complete a quest than pre U22.

U22
Remove risk
Remove reward
Plays like every other melee but with increased frustration due to slow speed and TWF.

Those of you saying the system still works never really knew how to play an assassin effectively pre-U22.

[Chai]

I still dont get the comparison between pnp d&d and DDO, they are different games based on different rulesets.

DDO "as-is" it's based on world of warcraft, not on d&d 3.5, stop pretending.

As for the assassin, why do you feel so useless? probably because you play with other people who just want to zerg? Get some friends and play for fun, not to beat some silly completion record.

Assassins work well when zerging. The assassinate conditions are "character in stealth" and "sneak attack". If its a killzone style zerg, Im assassinating anything that isn't aggroed on me at the killzone. If its running killing spree type zerg, I go after the casters, with their low fort saves, while the direct confrontation type melee are piling all the mobs that will follow them into their cleave radius.

[Chai]

In U22 Solo-ability for assassin went from bad to mind numingly boring. The only option now for using assassinate solo-mode is bluffing opponents 1 at a time (when there is a corner to hide around). This takes about 30 seconds per opponent (get into position bluff, wait for them to run to you, etc) and takes 2-4x longer to complete a quest than pre U22.

U22
Remove risk
Remove reward
Plays like every other melee but with increased frustration due to slow speed and TWF.

Those of you saying the system still works never really knew how to play an assassin effectively pre-U22.

Blindness works as well, and there are several ways to apply it. Traps being one, and radiance weapon being another. If you smack a mob with radiance a few times, then pop into stealth, then assassinate it, it works, because the blindness ensures the assassinate is a "sneak attack".

Also: If Im soloing a rogue, im not worried about time of completion. Killzone style soloing with a cleave based melee or persistent AOE caster is what Id play if time is a factor.

[nokowi]

Assassins work well when zerging. The assassinate conditions are "character in stealth" and "sneak attack". If its a killzone style zerg, Im assassinating anything that isn't aggroed on me at the killzone. If its running killing spree type zerg, I go after the casters, with their low fort saves, while the direct confrontation type melee are piling all the mobs that will follow them into their cleave radius.

This is correct. Please notice that you are doing exactly what any other melee class does (run up to mob hit button), alebit in slow motion, and that you don't need hide or move silently skill. There is no penalty for a failed assassinate attempt because someone else has aggro, and you likely won't steal it with ~80% threat reduction.

No risk/reward.

This is a much less fun play style than what was possible prior to U22.

All I'm asking for is for hide/move silently to determine if you are spotted after an assassinate for non-aggro'd mobs. It is a simple fix.

[nokowi]

Blindness works as well, and there are several ways to apply it. Traps being one, and radiance weapon being another. If you smack a mob with radiance a few times, then pop into stealth, then assassinate it, it works, because the blindness ensures the assassinate is a "sneak attack".

Also: If Im soloing a rogue, im not worried about time of completion. Killzone style soloing with a cleave based melee or persistent AOE caster is what Id play if time is a factor.

You assume someone else has aggro. This will not work solo or in front of the party because multiple mobs will be attacking you.

So instead of running a 40 minute quest (that could be zerged in 15 mins with a caster), you think 3 hours is not a problem? Go solo some quests... Rogue is never a zerg fest, but that does not mean time doesn't matter.

[Chai]

You assume someone else has aggro. This will not work solo or in front of the party because multiple mobs will be attacking you.

So instead of running a 40 minute quest (that could be zerged in 15 mins with a caster), you think 3 hours is not a problem? Go solo some quests... Rogue is never a zerg fest, but that does not mean time doesn't matter.

No one else has agro. The blindness ensures that the attack is an SA even if I have the agro. I do this when soloing. Its not hard to circle kite, jump, stealth, and assassinate the blind mob(s) before the other mobs attacking can close the distance. This games AI can be strangled with a cordless phone. Blindness also makes it easy to DPS kill mobs between assassinates, as its like having displacement on for every mob blinded.

Web traps are awesome.

It has never taken me three hours to solo a quest. Its about time and a half if I am stealthing AND killing all mobs. I get it done faster than most groups if I am not killing mobs, because I can stealth past most of the trash in many quests.

[Chai]

This is correct. Please notice that you are doing exactly what any other melee class does (run up to mob hit button), alebit in slow motion, and that you don't need hide or move silently skill. There is no penalty for a failed assassinate attempt because someone else has aggro, and you likely won't steal it with ~80% threat reduction.

No risk/reward.

This is a much less fun play style than what was possible prior to U22.

All I'm asking for is for hide/move silently to determine if you are spotted after an assassinate for non-aggro'd mobs. It is a simple fix.

Yes, this whole "eyeball pops above mobs head arbitrarily" thing needs to DIAF. Theres no way a mob who doesn't have spot/listen as a class skill would be able to detect my rogue with hide/MS > 100.

[Rykka]

No one else has agro. The blindness ensures that the attack is an SA even if I have the agro. I do this when soloing. Its not hard to circle kite, jump, stealth, and assassinate the blind mob(s) before the other mobs attacking can close the distance. This games AI can be strangled with a cordless phone. Blindness also makes it easy to DPS kill mobs between assassinates, as its like having displacement on for every mob blinded.

Web traps are awesome.

It has never taken me three hours to solo a quest. Its about time and a half if I am stealthing AND killing all mobs. I get it done faster than most groups if I am not killing mobs, because I can stealth past most of the trash in many quests.

Got my first quote. Lol.

[nokowi]

No one else has agro. The blindness ensures that the attack is an SA even if I have the agro. I do this when soloing. Its not hard to circle kite, jump, stealth, and assassinate the blind mob(s) before the other mobs attacking can close the distance. This games AI can be strangled with a cordless phone. Blindness also makes it easy to DPS kill mobs between assassinates, as its like having displacement on for every mob blinded.

Web traps are awesome.

It has never taken me three hours to solo a quest. Its about time and a half if I am stealthing AND killing all mobs. I get it done faster than most groups if I am not killing mobs, because I can stealth past most of the trash in many quests.

How are you blinding mobs?
Could you post a couple minute video of you on an EE quest using said tactics?
I would like to evaluate your tactics and make sure they apply on EE runs.

Do you agree that stealth is no longer important for the assassinate ability? You don't seem to use it. (but is useful for moving by mobs)

Also, What DC do your web traps have? Does this work in epic elites?

[bsquishwizzy]

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.


When did this happen? That last time I played my Assassin (still leveling) was about a month ago, and I've been able to regularly nail two mobs at once, and still remain undetected.

Or take out a mob when their backs are turned, and the other surrounding mobs don't notice.

Did this happen with the latest service release?

[bsquishwizzy]

How about "Because I don't want to be a Zombie!"

And why should every fleshy AM be forced into becoming a Zombie or accept significantly under-powered self healing and absolutely no chance of any healing from divines in party because of the "you're a wizard - you can self heal" attitude that's been prevalent in game for almost as long as I've been playing DDO!

Well, you could take the bump up to Vampire, and just avoid getting sizzled with light spells.

As an aside, I'm there with the people who are looking for some sort of decent healing for fleshy AMs. My first wizzy life on my main was fleshy AM. Running without a net forces you to analyze how you do stuff, how to avoid getting hit, and how to one-shot stuff before it sees you. Albeit,m you'll die more often than a fill-fledged PM, but not as often as people claim.

I truly hate the notion that you either go fleshy PM, or WF AM as being viable for pures. I hate stuff being boiled down to the lowest common denominator. It ends up making stuff boring as hell.

[nokowi]

When did this happen? That last time I played my Assassin (still leveling) was about a month ago, and I've been able to regularly nail two mobs at once, and still remain undetected.

Or take out a mob when their backs are turned, and the other surrounding mobs don't notice.

Did this happen with the latest service release?

With Update 22 (3bc). Most of the good assassins I know have retired their toons. It is that bad.

You are auto-spotted (by everyone!) after any assassinate to a non-aggro'd mob. In group play, this means 6-8 mobs charging you if you bump into someone or assassinate at the front of the party. It is now a game of Benny Hill Music, waiting for someone else to have agro and running around after kited mobs at slow speed, missing with TWF, etc.

You can try the old jump, hit stealth method, assassinate method to agro'd mobs, but this is most effective only for mobs standing still (or least not chasing after a kiting party member).

Chai has suggested web traps work awesome, that it is easy to blind one mob and assassinate them before any other mobs reach you, and that it is easy to solo any quest in an hour. I am skeptical that he is running EE quests but you can hold out for some hope that he might post something (say a EE Cabal For One, or EE Feast or Famine run). Sneaking at the front of the party is gone.

[Chai]

How are you blinding mobs?
Could you post a couple minute video of you on an EE quest using said tactics?
I would like to evaluate your tactics and make sure they apply on EE runs.

Do you agree that stealth is no longer important for the assassinate ability? You don't seem to use it. (but is useful for moving by mobs)

Also, What DC do your web traps have? Does this work in epic elites?

Radiance weapon, Blindness traps.

Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.

Also any helpless mob is auto SA. For instance, if your rogue is in FotW, uses an adrenaline to knock a mob down, its in "helpless" mode, so if you drop into stealth and hit assassinate, it works.

And yes, "stealth" as in sneaking up to the mobs, is FUBAR in DDO right now because apparently even with over 100 hide and move silently, a fighter type mob with no spot or listen as a class skill can just see right through it. Its like the game isn't even paying attention to D&D mechanics and is just rolling probability dice based on proximity.

The trick is to use things that put the mob into a state where your attacks are considered sneak attacks, regardless if the mob has agro, sees you, etc.

[Miahoo]

Totally agree.
After 4 years playing the same role I give up assassin and went acro.

[nokowi]

Radiance weapon, Blindness traps.

Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.

Also any helpless mob is auto SA. For instance, if your rogue is in FotW, uses an adrenaline to knock a mob down, its in "helpless" mode, so if you drop into stealth and hit assassinate, it works.

And yes, "stealth" as in sneaking up to the mobs, is FUBAR in DDO right now because apparently even with over 100 hide and move silently, a fighter type mob with no spot or listen as a class skill can just see right through it. Its like the game isn't even paying attention to D&D mechanics and is just rolling probability dice based on proximity.

The trick is to use things that put the mob into a state where your attacks are considered sneak attacks, regardless if the mob has agro, sees you, etc.

What is your DC? Please show use your methods work on EE. I can do my own testing and post, but I would prefer if you back up your own methods so that those reading can learn what DC"s they need to be effective on solo EE runs.

I can easily see these tactics working on EN or EH (no posted DC's needed). On EN/EH it is often faster to NOT use assassinate because dps is faster. Throwing down blind traps on EN/EH will likely be slower than just killing everything on EN/EH.

[Relem]

Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.



Actually, a very good point. That now makes the traps look very attractive and can make a PM eyes water. Traps are rarely used atm, especially in groups as they are slow to set up. However, the DCs on them for artis and especially rogue mechanics are pretty high.

A probably guess at the DC at lvl 28 for a rogue using the formula is 28+30+80=108 (And that is a very conservative guess). Traps are not limited to web either. Tried them once a long time ago, might be worth going back and taking another look at them. Although the bottle alchemical hand grenades are totally lame.

[Chai]

What is your DC? Please show use your methods work on EE. I can do my own testing and post, but I would prefer if you back up your own methods so that those reading can learn what DC"s they need to be effective on solo EE runs.

I can easily see these tactics working on EN or EH (no posted DC's needed). On EN/EH it is often faster to NOT use assassinate because dps is faster. Throwing down blind traps on EN/EH will likely be slower than just killing everything on EN/EH.

Slower, yes, but also less risky.

If you are worried about time, better to get a group. Soloing is always longer unless youre stealthing past the mobs, something a rogue can do better than any other class with invis.

Traps do work on EE, but the damage ones aren't even noticed. Better to go with web/blind, or dance. Radiance weapons are still awesome.

If you are trying to solo EE on a pure rogue, and are worried about the time factor, I recommend rolling another class that solos EE in far less time. It can be done on a pure rogue, if you are patient, but not being patient is what gets you killed. Its not a run in and swing weapon direct confrontation wade in and destroy class. If you could DPS with impunity and not worry about suffering a bout of SMDS (sudden melee death syndrome) then DPS would always be faster. Soloing EE on a pure rogue, this will not be the case.

Patience is the key. If worried about the time factor, roll a different class, like a sorc.

[Chai]

Actually, a very good point. That now makes the traps look very attractive and can make a PM eyes water. Traps are rarely used atm, especially in groups as they are slow to set up. However, the DCs on them for artis and especially rogue mechanics are pretty high.

A probably guess at the DC at lvl 28 for a rogue using the formula is 28+30+80=108 (And that is a very conservative guess). Traps are not limited to web either. Tried them once a long time ago, might be worth going back and taking another look at them. Although the bottle alchemical hand grenades are totally lame.

Yes. The damage traps aren't worth the parts. Make CC traps - they are awesome.

[nokowi]

Radiance weapon, Blindness traps.

Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.

Also any helpless mob is auto SA. For instance, if your rogue is in FotW, uses an adrenaline to knock a mob down, its in "helpless" mode, so if you drop into stealth and hit assassinate, it works.

And yes, "stealth" as in sneaking up to the mobs, is FUBAR in DDO right now because apparently even with over 100 hide and move silently, a fighter type mob with no spot or listen as a class skill can just see right through it. Its like the game isn't even paying attention to D&D mechanics and is just rolling probability dice based on proximity.

The trick is to use things that put the mob into a state where your attacks are considered sneak attacks, regardless if the mob has agro, sees you, etc.

1. I freely admit I have never really used traps other than sound traps for the "backpack" method in the Red Fens. That's why I am asking for input.

Here is what I see for magical Trap DC's online for magical traps (is this outdated?)

"These traps function similarly to mines, except that when they activate, the spell is cast. Since these spells are solely derived from the scrolls, the durations are very short in general, and the DC's very low."


Normal Rogue: 10 + Spell Level + Intelligence Modifier (magical trap DC)

Assuming you have about a 60 intelligence, this gives you a DC of less than 40. Does this really work on EE's?


2. After you lay your first trap, blind mobs and assassinate one of them, how do you blind the next mob? DO you lay out a string of 5-6 traps before you engage anyone? Are you setting a 2nd trap as 5 mobs chase you around the room? Your prior posts suggest mobs are chasing you as you continually blind mobs.

[Chai]

1. I freely admit I have never really used traps other than sound traps for the "backpack" method in the Red Fens. That's why I am asking for input.

Here is what I see for magical Trap DC's online for magical traps (is this outdated?)

"These traps function similarly to mines, except that when they activate, the spell is cast. Since these spells are solely derived from the scrolls, the durations are very short in general, and the DC's very low."


Normal Rogue: 10 + Spell Level + Intelligence Modifier (magical trap DC)

Assuming you have about a 60 intelligence, this gives you a DC of less than 40. Does this really work on EE's?

The Wikipedia article you quoted that from was written right after trap making came out and hasn't been modified correctly. It still refers to "mechanic I and mechanic II" enhancements.


2. After you lay your first trap, blind mobs and assassinate one of them, how do you blind the next mob? DO you lay out a string of 5-6 traps before you engage anyone? Are you setting a 2nd trap as 5 mobs chase you around the room? Your prior posts suggest mobs are chasing you as you continually blind mobs.

The traps aren't all single target. Also, radiance weapons rule for rogues, and most assassinate-able mobs will also be blind-able.

Heres a video of a player using traps to blind and web CR 62 shadar-kai assassins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tttts37mGVI

The first trap he puts down is a web, and he assassinates the shadar-kai while the mob is webbed. The second trap he puts down is blindness. It blinds most of the mobs in the room. The third trap he puts down is a hypno trap which stops both mobs chasing him.

This player also makes good use of contingencies, such as Improved Invisibility.

[nokowi]

The Wikipedia article you quoted that from was written right after trap making came out and hasn't been modified correctly. It still refers to "mechanic I and mechanic II" enhancements.



The traps aren't all single target. Also, radiance weapons rule for rogues, and most assassinate-able mobs will also be blind-able.

Heres a video of a player using traps to blind and web CR 62 shadar-kai assassins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tttts37mGVI

The first trap he puts down is a web, and he assassinates the shadar-kai while the mob is webbed. The second trap he puts down is blindness. It blinds most of the mobs in the room. The third trap he puts down is a hypno trap which stops both mobs chasing him.

This player also makes good use of contingencies, such as Improved Invisibility.

Thanks! I wasn't aware that trap DC's/time had been changed. Honestly I gave up on them a long time ago. I will do some play testing and report back to this thread.

DC's will be ridiculous if its Level+IntMod+Disable (~140 for me)

I am done TR'ing so most of my play is now helping others and raids. I may decide to skip groups entirely (it's not fun being at the back of the party) and instead just skulk around by myself (until they decide to make hide/move silently useful again).

The kill rate from this video seems to be about 1 mob per minute. If this is the new norm, I suggest that this already niche class will almost completely disappear. Judging by the damage taken in the 1 minute clip, I am skeptical that even this one room got cleared before death. Is this really a viable method for quest completion. Do people really complete an entire quest this way?

I will go complete a quest in the next day or two and report back...

[Chai]

Thanks! I wasn't aware that trap DC's/time had been changed. Honestly I gave up on them a long time ago. I will do some play testing and report back to this thread.

DC's will be ridiculous if its Level+IntMod+Disable (~140 for me)

I am done TR'ing so most of my play is now helping others and raids. I may decide to skip groups entirely (it's not fun being at the back of the party) and instead just skulk around by myself (until they decide to make hide/move silently useful again).

The kill rate from this video seems to be about 1 mob per minute. If this is the new norm, I suggest that this already niche class will almost completely disappear. Judging by the damage taken in the 1 minute clip, I am skeptical that even this one room got cleared before death. Is this really a viable method for quest completion. Do people really complete an entire quest this way?

I will go complete a quest in the next day or two and report back...

He was showing how traps work and that it can be done even in the higher end game. He was not focusing on rate of kills.

This does require patience however, and kill rate wont be optimal compared to the direct confrontation classes and kiting builds who can toss persistent AOE or CC and nuke.

[Strider1963]

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?




AMEN!!! My rogue assassin has been sitting on the sidelines since the nerf.....

[nokowi]

He was showing how traps work and that it can be done even in the higher end game. He was not focusing on rate of kills.

This does require patience however, and kill rate wont be optimal compared to the direct confrontation classes and kiting builds who can toss persistent AOE or CC and nuke.

Nobody who would play a rogue actually cares about this comparison (rogue vs caster). The question is not rogue vs some other build. It is about how rogues (particularly assassins) can succeed in the current environment (agro changes). It is whether trap use is an effective option when compared to other rogue abilities. So yes kill rate matters, as does survivability and completion time. You can care about all of these things and still play a rogue. It is about getting the most out of the class that you enjoy playing. Bluffing around the corner seems a much more effective (safety/time saved) option than the video you referenced.

I do appreciate the post and your contributions to this thread. I am still practicing with traps, so I am not making any judgement yet about trap effectiveness.

I did not have 100% trap DC success rate in the same quest on EE (Thrill of the Hunt). Of course I could be doing something wrong. Traps were made with lvl 28 toon, 68 int, 108 disable device score. I don't think the trap DC is char level+intmod+disable as this would have been DC 165 (28+29+108).

Is there an official post stating trap DC is level+IntMod+Disable?

Something like Spell Level + IntMod + Disable/2 (DC 3+29+54 = 86 for me) seems more likely to me.

[Deadlock]

What did you expect? After layoffs DDO is low on developers... Quality of life "issues", horrible lag problems, bugs bugs and more bugs... and of course those nasty expl.oits everyone is talking 'bout.... And what Turbine does? Hire a guy to work on... MELEE POWER!!!

They can't surprise me anymore.:)

You might be surprised to know that the number of DDO developers has increased with a couple of fresh faces from Asheron's Call coming onboard. Surprised by that?

[ishr]

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?

two of my guildies play sick ee assassins. they do it by cooperating and coordinating with other players. if youre saying soloing as an assassin is hard, i get that, but ive seen mean assassins work on ee, because they use skill. its not easy to do, and takes a lot of thinking, is that a bad thing?

[Kalimah]

AMEN!!! My rogue assassin has been sitting on the sidelines since the nerf.....

Heh I made mine my swasher build since he had all my hot finesse weapons anyway. I really hate the agro change...I like that it gives the pews something fun to do but its a drag on the assassin.

[Relem]

Something like Spell Level + IntMod + Disable/2 (DC 3+29+54 = 86 for me) seems more likely to me.

This is the actual formula unless you take the Improved Traps ability in the Mechanic tree which increase the DCs of magical traps and also increases the percentage of the Disable Device part of the equation for elemental traps. So for Chai's DCs to be as they are, then it would seem that the percentage increase is happening to all traps meaning that either the ability is not working as stated (kind of like Unbridled Fury recharging Fury on ranged attacks even though it states on melee) or the traps are not categorized properly.

[Chai]

Nobody who would play a rogue actually cares about this comparison (rogue vs caster). The question is not rogue vs some other build. It is about how rogues (particularly assassins) can succeed in the current environment (agro changes). It is whether trap use is an effective option when compared to other rogue abilities. So yes kill rate matters, as does survivability and completion time. You can care about all of these things and still play a rogue. It is about getting the most out of the class that you enjoy playing. Bluffing around the corner seems a much more effective (safety/time saved) option than the video you referenced.

Right, but you keep bringing up time of completion and stating it is not near optimal. What exactly are you comparing that to, if not the other classes that can complete more quickly.


I do appreciate the post and your contributions to this thread. I am still practicing with traps, so I am not making any judgement yet about trap effectiveness.

I did not have 100% trap DC success rate in the same quest on EE (Thrill of the Hunt). Of course I could be doing something wrong. Traps were made with lvl 28 toon, 68 int, 108 disable device score. I don't think the trap DC is char level+intmod+disable as this would have been DC 165 (28+29+108).

Is there an official post stating trap DC is level+IntMod+Disable?

Something like Spell Level + IntMod + Disable/2 (DC 3+29+54 = 86 for me) seems more likely to me.

I don't believe full disable is counted. More like half disable unless taking the mechanic enhancements. They still work in EE though, even if not 100%. I don't believe 100% success rate should ever be the measuring stick for viability however. This is one thing DDO min maxers have gotten too used to being the norm.

[Forzah]

I don't believe full disable is counted. More like half disable unless taking the mechanic enhancements. They still work in EE though, even if not 100%. I don't believe 100% success rate should ever be the measuring stick for viability however. This is one thing DDO min maxers have gotten too used to being the norm.

Well... with deadly unavoidable traps, that 100% success rate is a must in some quests. It's quite annoying not to be able to complete a quest because of failing a disable. You really don't want the success of a whole quest to depend on a single dice roll. Then I'd rather play a game of blackjack :)

[Chai]

Well... with deadly unavoidable traps, that 100% success rate is a must in some quests. It's quite annoying not to be able to complete a quest because of failing a disable. You really don't want the success of a whole quest to depend on a single dice roll. Then I'd rather play a game of blackjack :)

That's part of the issue. In D&D id roll one reflex save to avoid or take damage. I might have a 60% chance of success. In DDO some traps have you rolling high amounts of reflex saves, for super high damage on a fail, on a per occurrence basis. Its not unheard of to take damage 5+ times stepping into the same trap.

Im fine with it depending on getting through ONE trap with ONE reflex roll. Usually that can be geared to mitigate as well. If you didn't have evasion you could have 50 fire resist + 30% mitigate (boots) + 50% mitigate (fireshield cold version) + 120 protect. Youd probably make it if it were ONE save being rolled, even if you failed, if you were prepared.

[nokowi]

Right, but you keep bringing up time of completion and stating it is not near optimal. What exactly are you comparing that to, if not the other classes that can complete more quickly.



I don't believe full disable is counted. More like half disable unless taking the mechanic enhancements. They still work in EE though, even if not 100%. I don't believe 100% success rate should ever be the measuring stick for viability however. This is one thing DDO min maxers have gotten too used to being the norm.

I am comparing rogue tactics to rogue tactics. When playing a rogue, that's all you have control over. I am comparing assassin Pre update 22 to post update 22. You have suggested that soloing EE's is quite viable via trap use and radiance, and that time is no issue. You seem to be suggesting that the recent agro changes are not a problem, despite the number of people posting that they are no longer playing their assassins. How many assassins do you really think there were prior to this nerf? I am doubting your knowledge, based on what I know about other assassin tactics, while admitting where I lack knowledge in trap use while trying to get up to speed on trap use. People who understand assassins are saying that this nerf is a BIG problem.

Shadowdancer has an ability called Shadow Manipulation that is usable every 2 minutes. It has a very good success rate with high Intelligence (Will DC = 14 +28 + 29 = 71). This seems to me to be a much better option for getting agro'd mobs than what you suggest through trap use. Bluffing mobs 1 at a time around a corner seems to me to be a much better option than what you suggest for trap use. Waiting for radiance to proc in an EE quest with multiple mobs on you is NOT a good tactic to rely on. It may work on occasion but it will not keep you alive.

The video you provided relied on
1. Improved Invisibility (usable 30 sec out of every 4 minutes, maximum) 12.5% of the time
2. Having a corner to run around ?? 50% of the time

Trap use as shown would thus be useful less than 10% of the time. Is this really a solution to completing quests? Did you put any thought into how much time it would actually take to complete a quest this way?

Your stated solutions to assassin play (traps, radiance item) seem weak to me based on my experience. Your statement that time is not a problem seems weak to me. So when you tell us everything is fine, it lacks credibility (to me anyway).

[nokowi]

This is the actual formula unless you take the Improved Traps ability in the Mechanic tree which increase the DCs of magical traps and also increases the percentage of the Disable Device part of the equation for elemental traps. So for Chai's DCs to be as they are, then it would seem that the percentage increase is happening to all traps meaning that either the ability is not working as stated (kind of like Unbridled Fury recharging Fury on ranged attacks even though it states on melee) or the traps are not categorized properly.

Thanks! I am not sure if I can give up wand and scroll mastery for improved traps. While I rarely scroll heal myself, healing others with 240 pt heals + rejuvination cocoon has saved quite a few party wipes.

[Chai]

I am comparing rogue tactics to rogue tactics. When playing a rogue, that's all you have control over. I am comparing assassin Pre update 22 to post update 22. You have suggested that soloing EE's is quite viable via trap use and radiance, and that time is no issue. You seem to be suggesting that the recent agro changes are not a problem, despite the number of people posting that they are no longer playing their assassins. How many assassins do you really think there were prior to this nerf? I am doubting your knowledge, based on what I know about other assassin tactics, while admitting where I lack knowledge in trap use while trying to get up to speed on trap use. People who understand assassins are saying that this nerf is a BIG problem..

Not really. In fact ive made a few posts in this thread which outlines my position on the agro changes.


Shadowdancer has an ability called Shadow Manipulation that is usable every 2 minutes. It has a very good success rate with high Intelligence (Will DC = 14 +28 + 29 = 71). This seems to me to be a much better option for getting agro'd mobs than what you suggest through trap use. Bluffing mobs 1 at a time around a corner seems to me to be a much better option than what you suggest for trap use. Waiting for radiance to proc in an EE quest with multiple mobs on you is NOT a good tactic to rely on. It may work on occasion but it will not keep you alive.

This is in addition to, and not a replacement for, trap use, and all other tools available. Im not suggestion as an absolute that traps and radiance make EE doable where it wasn't before. Im suggesting adding them in if you have not, because they definitely work well in conjunction with the other tools available, both as offensive weapons, and contingencies for when you do get agro.


The video you provided relied on
1. Improved Invisibility (usable 30 sec out of every 4 minutes, maximum) 12.5% of the time
2. Having a corner to run around ?? 50% of the time

The playstyle does not rely on those completely. He used the contingencies available to him at the time he made the video. There is no absolute as a rogue that one can rely on in order to make this all happen. What there is, is an abundance of tools that can be used in conjunction with each other for offense, defense, and contingency based play.


Trap use as shown would thus be useful less than 10% of the time. Is this really a solution to completing quests? Did you put any thought into how much time it would actually take to complete a quest this way?

This is flat out false. Experiment with it more IN CONJUNCTION WITH your other tools rather than attempting to pigeonhole one or two abilities as the savior of rogue assassins.


Your stated solutions to assassin play (traps, radiance item) seem weak to me based on my experience. Your statement that time is not a problem seems weak to me. So when you tell us everything is fine, it lacks credibility (to me anyway) .

Your statements lack cred here because you fully admitted to not experimenting with traps, made claims sans that knowledge, linked old school wiki articles, and were completely shown to be wrong using solid video evidence about the DCs and viability of traps in high level EE quests. Now youre attempting to backpedal and label it weak in order to back up your previous and vastly incorrect position that rogues are worthless.

Because of this Im wondering what else you haven't tried or are not aware of as of yet.

Conclusion; L2P a rogue using patience, and stop worrying about time of completion. Also stop using "ability to solo the highest level EE quests quickly" as an absolute measuring stick. You are attempting to label something as garbage based on your (now proven false) assertion that it cant function in 1% of the available in game quests on the toughest difficulty.

Cant stop worrying about time of completion when soloing high level quests on EE? Soloing on a rogue may not be for you then. Roll a Sorc - or something that can kick the door in and blast, or smash away. Stealth soloing requires patience, cunning, and use of all contingencies available. Its not a playstyle for zergers or folks worried about completing quests faster than the next player. If you are on an XP/min kick, soloing a rogue using stealth in EE might not be the wisest choice. :p

If we continue to use "cant solo high level EE in short amount of time" as an absolute measuring stick for discussions, most class/race features and PRE are going to be labeled as garbage, and we will be left talking about the few FOTM builds that can blow through EE. This is a poor metric for judging what is good/viable/even optimal in this game and what is not, and calling other peoples play analysis of specific class features out as "lacking credibility" because of that measuring stick is hilarious, and has perpetuated quite a few myths on these forums that need debunking - the "assassins are garbage" myth being one of the worst offenders.

[Slymenstraa]

I am in the same guild as Noko and have run with him several times on my lvl 28 Rog. I know from firsthand experience he is a highly skilled player and knows exactly how to use everything available to him in a given quest. I agree with him and turned my rog into a flavor build because the aggro changes simply just killed any chance of sneaking around killing mobs.

[nokowi]

Not really. In fact ive made a few posts in this thread which outlines my position on the agro changes.



This is in addition to, and not a replacement for, trap use, and all other tools available. Im not suggestion as an absolute that traps and radiance make EE doable where it wasn't before. Im suggesting adding them in if you have not, because they definitely work well in conjunction with the other tools available, both as offensive weapons, and contingencies for when you do get agro.



The playstyle does not rely on those completely. He used the contingencies available to him at the time he made the video. There is no absolute as a rogue that one can rely on in order to make this all happen. What there is, is an abundance of tools that can be used in conjunction with each other for offense, defense, and contingency based play.



This is flat out false. Experiment with it more IN CONJUNCTION WITH your other tools rather than attempting to pigeonhole one or two abilities as the savior of rogue assassins.



Your statements lack cred here because you fully admitted to not experimenting with traps, made claims sans that knowledge, linked old school wiki articles, and were completely shown to be wrong using solid video evidence about the DCs and viability of traps in high level EE quests. Now youre attempting to backpedal and label it weak in order to back up your previous and vastly incorrect position that rogues are worthless.

Because of this Im wondering what else you haven't tried or are not aware of as of yet.

Conclusion; L2P a rogue using patience, and stop worrying about time of completion. Also stop using "ability to solo the highest level EE quests quickly" as an absolute measuring stick. You are attempting to label something as garbage based on your (now proven false) assertion that it cant function in 1% of the available in game quests on the toughest difficulty.

Cant stop worrying about time of completion when soloing high level quests on EE? Soloing on a rogue may not be for you then. Roll a Sorc - or something that can kick the door in and blast, or smash away. Stealth soloing requires patience, cunning, and use of all contingencies available. Its not a playstyle for zergers or folks worried about completing quests faster than the next player. If you are on an XP/min kick, soloing a rogue using stealth in EE might not be the wisest choice. :p

If we continue to use "cant solo high level EE in short amount of time" as an absolute measuring stick for discussions, most class/race features and PRE are going to be labeled as garbage, and we will be left talking about the few FOTM builds that can blow through EE. This is a poor metric for judging what is good/viable/even optimal in this game and what is not, and calling other peoples play analysis of specific class features out as "lacking credibility" because of that measuring stick is hilarious, and has perpetuated quite a few myths on these forums that need debunking - the "assassins are garbage" myth being one of the worst offenders.


I am not backpedaling, I am making clear statements. MANY players who were previously willing to deal with all of the issues rogues have (long completion times, many weaknesses (undead, squishy, etc), issues with lag on stealth/assassinate, low boss dps, etc) are NOT willing to put up with an agro system that automatically spots you when you assassinate, regardless of the success of the assassinate or your hide score. SO while they ENJOYED assassin enough pre U22 to put up with this assassin specific issues, the new system removes MUCH of the fun of playing an assassin. Players are shelving their assassins in droves.

When you post that time is not an issue, you lack all credibility. You don't understand that rogue palyers DO care about time, they just enjoyed playing their toon enough that it was OK if it took 3x as long to level. The new system is 1. less enjoyable to play and 2. takes more time to complete Add these two together and you see why players are shelving their rogues.

Telling people to go try other tactics as a solution tells those reading this thread that you don;t even recognize the real issue (reduced enjoyability of play such that people quit playing assassins).

When I start a thread saying assassins are worthless, I am letting those poor souls who are TR'ing other classes to make their rogue non-squishy know that the class they want to play is largely ruined. Those who were playing assassin have largely quit already.

[Relem]

When I start a thread saying assassins are worthless, I am letting those poor souls who are TR'ing other classes to make their rogue non-squishy know that the class they want to play is largely ruined. Those who were playing assassin have largely quit already.

Thank you for reminding me of my Lady of the Night assassin (you should hear what I call her over voice chat, she spends more time on her back then on her feet), I finally get the weapons I want on her and she's useless :'(

Still I heard that they are changing the animation of assassinate. Apparently, on a successful kill, brass band comes marching on, you get ticker tape blown all over the place, and a reporter from Fox News comes running over to ask you for a break down on how you performed such an amazing feat. That's on top of all your targets' mates coming over to give you a good pounding. Of course the source is not totally reliable (the voices, so many voices).

[Chai]

I am not backpedaling, I am making clear statements. MANY players who were previously willing to deal with all of the issues rogues have (long completion times, many weaknesses (undead, squishy, etc), issues with lag on stealth/assassinate, low boss dps, etc) are NOT willing to put up with an agro system that automatically spots you when you assassinate, regardless of the success of the assassinate or your hide score. SO while they ENJOYED assassin enough pre U22 to put up with this assassin specific issues, the new system removes MUCH of the fun of playing an assassin. Players are shelving their assassins in droves.

1. When you post that time is not an issue, you lack all credibility. You don't understand that rogue palyers DO care about time, they just enjoyed playing their toon enough that it was OK if it took 3x as long to level. The new system is 1. less enjoyable to play and 2. takes more time to complete Add these two together and you see why players are shelving their rogues.

2. Telling people to go try other tactics as a solution tells those reading this thread that you don;t even recognize the real issue (reduced enjoyability of play such that people quit playing assassins).

When I start a thread saying assassins are worthless, I am letting those poor souls who are TR'ing other classes to make their rogue non-squishy know that the class they want to play is largely ruined. Those who were playing assassin have largely quit already.

Bolded 1. Then rogues aren't for you. I don't lack credibility. You lack patience to play anything that doesn't complete quests quickly. You made claims that things couldn't be done, and I proved each of those claims incorrect.

Do you honestly think stealth soloing a quest should be fast?

Bolded 2. "reduced enjoy ability" is a matter of opinion, not a fact. I brought the facts here, and showed that playing a rogue can still be done effectively, when you claimed otherwise. Rogues have ALWAYS taken more time to stealth solo a quest than it took for direct confrontation

so..

Less enjoyable: matter of opinion
More time to complete. Refuted.

[PsychoBlonde]

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you.

And it never, ever, even remotely occurred to you to bluff pull individual mobs so you can kill them out of range of their compatriots and not trigger the entire group?

[Relem]

And it never, ever, even remotely occurred to you to bluff pull individual mobs so you can kill them out of range of their compatriots and not trigger the entire group?

Add in the point of rubber band (where the mob goes back to the spwan point), and it not as simple as it sounds. I'll test it later though.

[Chai]

I am not backpedaling, I am making clear statements..

No, you are backpedaling. The vague blanket statement that rogues are worthless, and denial of all evidence to the contrary, is not a clear statement. You demand evidence, then dismiss evidence when brought, and therefore will never be convinced on this issue, so..... this is how this discussion is going to end....

I am going to continue to play my rogue effectively in 2014 and complete quests at a reasonable rate doing so, understanding the strategies and contingencies needed to do so, and continue getting better as time passes. You are going to continue to attempt to play your rogue like its 2011, denying and refusing to use and learn the stuff that works in EE in 2014, then make blanket statement complaints on the forums further perpetuating the myth that rogues are worthless because they don't play like they did in 2011. You will do this even after you admittedly never even considered mechanics that work in 2014, after they are literally shown to you, and proven they work.

Poor measuring sticks for forum discussion include "it must work 100% of the time in the highest level EE quests and allow me to complete those quests quickly, or its garbage". Every time I see this level of pigeonholing, I see that the guilty party will likely never be satisfied, because their expectations of "no fail under the most challenging circumstances possible" is not what Turbine balances the game against.

[Ashlayna]

And it never, ever, even remotely occurred to you to bluff pull individual mobs so you can kill them out of range of their compatriots and not trigger the entire group?

Sshh, don't muddy the water with details.

I absolutely hate my assassin, against undead. That said, I have begun contemplating three Arti lives and then going back to it, I enjoy it so much against everything else. Not to mention that I can even disable traps that my FotM friends can't seem to get, to the point where one of them opined yesterday: "Gee, it's nice to have a real rogue in the party". So, useless? Not by a long shot. Is it harder, yeah, it actually requires you to think instead of zerg zerg zerg. But so far, I'm not feeling all that useless. No, I can't play it the way I play one of my melee FvSs, but then again, I can't play my rangers or artis that way either. But if I'm going in planning to stealth solo my way through a quest, my eye isn't on the clock.

[nokowi]

And it never, ever, even remotely occurred to you to bluff pull individual mobs so you can kill them out of range of their compatriots and not trigger the entire group?

All I can say is wow! (life #79). This is NOT a reliable group tactic. You would still be in the first room when the party completes the quest. It is also unnecessary in group play as someone else will have agro.

It is a viable solo tactic. I mention it in this thread. I mention Shadow Manipulation as a better tactic. I also mention it as a better tactic than those suggested by Chai.

Please read the thread before making wild assumptions about the OP.

[nokowi]

No, you are backpedaling. The vague blanket statement that rogues are worthless, and denial of all evidence to the contrary, is not a clear statement. You demand evidence, then dismiss evidence when brought, and therefore will never be convinced on this issue, so..... this is how this discussion is going to end....

I am going to continue to play my rogue effectively in 2014 and complete quests at a reasonable rate doing so, understanding the strategies and contingencies needed to do so, and continue getting better as time passes. You are going to continue to attempt to play your rogue like its 2011, denying and refusing to use and learn the stuff that works in EE in 2014, then make blanket statement complaints on the forums further perpetuating the myth that rogues are worthless because they don't play like they did in 2011. You will do this even after you admittedly never even considered mechanics that work in 2014, after they are literally shown to you, and proven they work.

Poor measuring sticks for forum discussion include "it must work 100% of the time in the highest level EE quests and allow me to complete those quests quickly, or its garbage". Every time I see this level of pigeonholing, I see that the guilty party will likely never be satisfied, because their expectations of "no fail under the most challenging circumstances possible" is not what Turbine balances the game against.

I said that there was a high risk vs reward to being at the front of the part, using stealth, and assassinating prior to U22. Did I say 0 risk? I said that skills like Hide/Move Silently and Assassinate DC were very important because of this risk vs reward structure. Pre U22 quests were not zerg fests for an assassin. Your credibility continues to drop as you make ridiculous claims. All I asked for was a reversion to pre U22 agro system, or at least a chance to hide after an assassinate attempt. A hide check is completely in line with D&D capabilities for an assassin. It follows the stated goals of the devs (having skills be useful).

I have argued against increasing assassinate DC's, and you accuse me of wanting things to work 100% of the time or its garbage? This coming from someone who defends 100+ insta kill DC's on bards? My arguments have been consistent throughout all of my postings. Stop making up false claims about me and stick to the thread.

Prior to this post, you have been doing a good job in this thread of sticking to discussion and refraining from personal attacks. Now you revert to personal accusations, and accuse me of poor forum discussion?

[nokowi]

Sshh, don't muddy the water with details.

I absolutely hate my assassin, against undead. That said, I have begun contemplating three Arti lives and then going back to it, I enjoy it so much against everything else. Not to mention that I can even disable traps that my FotM friends can't seem to get, to the point where one of them opined yesterday: "Gee, it's nice to have a real rogue in the party". So, useless? Not by a long shot. Is it harder, yeah, it actually requires you to think instead of zerg zerg zerg. But so far, I'm not feeling all that useless. No, I can't play it the way I play one of my melee FvSs, but then again, I can't play my rangers or artis that way either. But if I'm going in planning to stealth solo my way through a quest, my eye isn't on the clock.

Again, read the thread before you listen to some comment from Chai as truth. Assassin was NEVER a zerg fest. Asking for a fix to the agro system will not make it a zerg fest.

When you actually play your assassin and solo, you will find that there is now a 30 second procedure before you can use that assassinate button. If you enjoy it, more power to you. My complaints have more to do with group play and not being able to function at the front of the party as you could prior to U22. STEALTH is completely ruined in group play. It is unimportant. Assassin now plays like every other melee (run up hit button). Positioning, risk vs reward decisions, are largely eliminated.

I don;t want a mash button zerg fest. I want my assassin back where intelligent game play was vital to success and I was rewarded for good risk vs reward decisions.

[nokowi]

Add in the point of rubber band (where the mob goes back to the spwan point), and it not as simple as it sounds. I'll test it later though.

It is actually pretty easy assuming you don't get any lag as they approach. You have a short window to hit the assassinate button before they bump you and you have to fight outside of stealth.

This has been around forever. 2-3 years ago, you didn't even need to hide behind anything.

It is certainly an effective tactic if you are not strong enough to melee a mob in about 20 seconds, or if a group of mobs is too tough for you to kill otherwise.

[Chai]

I said that there was a high risk vs reward to being at the front of the part, using stealth, and assassinating prior to U22. Did I say 0 risk? I said that skills like Hide/Move Silently and Assassinate DC were very important because of this risk vs reward structure. Pre U22 quests were not zerg fests for an assassin. Your credibility continues to drop as you make ridiculous claims. All I asked for was a reversion to pre U22 agro system, or at least a chance to hide after an assassinate attempt. A hide check is completely in line with D&D capabilities for an assassin. It follows the stated goals of the devs (having skills be useful).

I have argued against increasing assassinate DC's, and you accuse me of wanting things to work 100% of the time or its garbage? This coming from someone who defends 100+ insta kill DC's on bards? My arguments have been consistent throughout all of my postings. Stop making up false claims about me and stick to the thread.

Prior to this post, you have been doing a good job in this thread of sticking to discussion and refraining from personal attacks. Now you revert to personal accusations, and accuse me of poor forum discussion?

It is as I suspected. You want to turn it into a personal discussion. Not interested. All of your claims regarding the PRE / class being worth less have been refuted, and any objective reader will see this, and enjoy playing their assassin in 2014, using methods that work in 2014.

As far as your comment regarding defending CDG working 100% of the time, this shows the same I pointed out in this thread. I clearly listed the weaknesses of CDG, and you promptly glossed over those, selectively read that, then make the claim that Im still for 100% success on an ability which is impossible to have 100% success with it.

conclusion: Learn to objectively analyze tactics brought up which you weren't even aware of previous to reading the post, before challenging the credibility of someone who is trying to do you a favor. Im having all kinds of fun playing my assassin, and if you are not, youre either not playing the class to its fullest potential, or the class isn't for you, as more patience is required than youre willing to have. Im voting both, because you weren't even aware of many of the mechanics that work in EE, and continue to carry on about needing optimal time of completion.

[Chai]

Again, read the thread before you listen to some comment from Chai as truth. Assassin was NEVER a zerg fest. Asking for a fix to the agro system will not make it a zerg fest.

When you actually play your assassin and solo, you will find that there is now a 30 second procedure before you can use that assassinate button. If you enjoy it, more power to you. My complaints have more to do with group play and not being able to function at the front of the party as you could prior to U22. STEALTH is completely ruined in group play. It is unimportant. Assassin now plays like every other melee (run up hit button). Positioning, risk vs reward decisions, are largely eliminated.

I don;t want a mash button zerg fest. I want my assassin back where intelligent game play was vital to success and I was rewarded for good risk vs reward decisions.

Bolded 1. False. It can be used far more quickly than this.

Bolded 2. False. Any objective reader will see that your measuring stick in this thread is being able to solo the highest level quests on EE in a small period of time.


I don;t want a mash button zerg fest. I want my assassin back where intelligent game play was vital to success and I was rewarded for good risk vs reward decisions.

Youre asking for the easy button back, where people could just stealth up to a mob and kill it and remain in stealth. The better risk -vs- reward is nowdays, where you know you can kill a specific mob, but you also know the risk of detection, so you have to play with contingency in mind, planned escape route, AOE traps to bait mobs that detected you through etc....rather than just killing 2 mobs every 12 seconds with impunity and NO RISK.

Refuted again. Continue to perpetuate these myths on the forums that the class is worthless, and ima show otherwise.

[nokowi]

False.

On average, how long does it take you to sneak in, place traps, wait for all mobs to be blinded?

Please give us a specific time so that you are adding something to the thread.

[Chai]

On average, how long does it take you to sneak in, place traps, wait for all mobs to be blinded?

Please give us a specific time so that you are adding something to the thread.

That's not the claim you made. You claimed 30 second process to use assassinate. Which is false.

Trap setting progress bar was shortened. Trap DC works with a significant success rate. Were you aware of this? You should be, as I pointed it out already.

Refuting the false claim that assassins are worthless adds to the thread, each time.

[nokowi]

Bolded 1. False. It can be used far more quickly than this.

Bolded 2. False. Any objective reader will see that your measuring stick in this thread is being able to solo the highest level quests on EE in a small period of time.

Actually quite a few objective readers agreed with all of my statements, and signed this thread saying so.

An objective reader would see that I talked about what I enjoyed in group play, and that this is now gone.

Any objective reader would see that the personal accusation about me (wanting a zerg fest, 100& success, etc) are BLATANTLY false by reading this and other threads I have posted.

[nokowi]

That's not the claim you made. You claimed 30 second process to use assassinate. Which is false.

Trap setting progress bar was shortened. Were you aware of this? You should be, as I pointed it out already.

So what is the time needed to do this? Back up your claim.

Please realize I am going to give you a quest and ask you to demonstrate for us just how successful and quick trap use is.

[Chai]

Actually quite a few objective readers agreed with all of my statements, and signed this thread saying so.

An objective reader would see that I talked about what I enjoyed in group play, and that this is now gone.

Any objective reader would see that the personal accusation about me (wanting a zerg fest, 100& success, etc) are BLATANTLY false by reading this and other threads I have posted.

They are agreeing that the way assassins USED TO PLAY -vs- THe WAY THEY PLAY NOW makes it less enjoyable. - a matter of opinion.

No one is agreeing with the ridiculous assertions of 3x time needed etc....and those are now refuted anyhow. So your facts are wrong, even if you have folks agreeing with your "less enjoyable" opinion.

In order to have a fruitful discussion on what needs to be changed to make the class competitive, we need to discuss facts. How it plays now -vs- how it can be changed to play better in the future. You have shown a few times now that youre not aware of how it plays currently. SO maybe if you learned to play it the way it was designed in 2014, you might enjoy it more......no wait, that would mean chai is right......darn.

[Ashlayna]

Again, read the thread before you listen to some comment from Chai as truth. Assassin was NEVER a zerg fest. Asking for a fix to the agro system will not make it a zerg fest.

When you actually play your assassin and solo, you will find that there is now a 30 second procedure before you can use that assassinate button. If you enjoy it, more power to you. My complaints have more to do with group play and not being able to function at the front of the party as you could prior to U22. STEALTH is completely ruined in group play. It is unimportant. Assassin now plays like every other melee (run up hit button). Positioning, risk vs reward decisions, are largely eliminated.

I don;t want a mash button zerg fest. I want my assassin back where intelligent game play was vital to success and I was rewarded for good risk vs reward decisions.

I play my assassin solo all the time. It's rare that I group her with anyone, and even then, it's short man guild runs of whatever the treat of the weekend is. Yes, the agro system is kind of borked right now, but it can be worked around. My response is aimed at your incessant desire to claim that rogues are worthless. They aren't. It doesn't matter how many past lives you have, if you can't play it, you can't play it, that doesn't mean the class is borked.

[nokowi]

They are agreeing that the way assassins USED TO PLAY -vs- THe WAY THEY PLAY NOW makes it less enjoyable. - a matter of opinion.

No one is agreeing with the ridiculous assertions of 3x time needed etc....and those are now refuted anyhow. So your facts are wrong, even if you have folks agreeing with your "less enjoyable" opinion.

In order to have a fruitful discussion on what needs to be changed to make the class competitive, we need to discuss facts. How it plays now -vs- how it can be changed to play better in the future. You have shown a few times now that youre not aware of how it plays currently. SO maybe if you learned to play it the way it was designed in 2014, you might enjoy it more......no wait, that would mean chai is right......darn.

3x may be an exaggeration. The POINT of the statement is that quests take longer now and that assassin is less fun. The POINT of mentioning a 30 second process for setting traps, waiting for them to go off, and affecting all mobs before assassinate is that it takes LONGER to use the premier ability of an assassin.

[nokowi]

I play my assassin solo all the time. It's rare that I group her with anyone, and even then, it's short man guild runs of whatever the treat of the weekend is. Yes, the agro system is kind of borked right now, but it can be worked around. My response is aimed at your incessant desire to claim that rogues are worthless. They aren't. It doesn't matter how many past lives you have, if you can't play it, you can't play it, that doesn't mean the class is borked.

I am sorry of my words upset you.

Maybe you can get past them and realize that I am arguing that the agro system can be fixed so that this prestige is enjoyable to play for the many players who have since retired their assassins. They are not zergers. They are not people who can't function in the current system. They are people who realize that this prestige is less fun to play.

Why exactly do you assume someone asking for a change can't play within the current system?

[Chai]

3x may be an exaggeration. The POINT of the statement is that quests take longer now and that assassin is less fun. The POINT of mentioning a 30 second process for setting traps, waiting for them to go off, and affecting all mobs before assassinate is that it takes LONGER to use the premier ability of an assassin.

Both claims are false, and have been proven so. The POINT of proving them false is to show people that while playing an assassin between 2011 and 2014 has change, the 2014 methods of playing an assassin have not rendered the class worthless.

It only takes longer if you are killing every mob. In stealth soloing killing every mob defeats the purpose of stealth soloing.

[nokowi]

Both claims are false, and have been proven so. The POINT of proving them false is to show people that while playing an assassin between 2011 and 2014 has change, the 2014 methods of playing an assassin have not rendered the class worthless.

It only takes longer if you are killing every mob. In stealth soloing killing every mob defeats the purpose of stealth soloing.

Congratulations on proving that quests don't take exactly 3x longer. +1 Chai (hear the sarcasm)

You have not proven that quests don't take ANY longer, nor is this the main topic of the thread. Agro changes to group play is the primary issue, despite your attempts to steer this thread in other directions.

Those of you who
1. only solo
2. enjoy trap use
3. don't care about extra time

likely will not care about the changes. The REST OF US DO!

I am guessing that DEV's didn't intend to nerf assassin, and that the new agro system accidentally caused changes for assassins. Nowhere on the forums did I hear cries that assassins were ZERGERS, that is was too easy to solo EE'S, that they were OP, etc. I have heard the opposite on the forums. The recent change is inconsistent with dev's stated goal to balance melee classes and to make skills useful. I started a thread to make sure people were aware of the issue, and to give people a chance to state that this change is harmful to the fun of assassin gameplay. Quite a few people have signed on to say this is the case, regardless of your obsession with trying to prove me wrong, to tell me how I should play my character, or to fabricate false motives about me.

Those people who's preferred game style's are unaffected seem happy to jump on the bandwagon in support of the changes. If trap DC's were cut in half, most of you would be on the forums crying bloody murder, and making a similar argument to what I am making right now. (What is the need for this nerf? It makes gameplay less fun, etc)

[Chai]

Congratulations on proving that quests don't take exactly 3x longer. +1 Chai (hear the sarcasm)

You have not proven that quests don't take ANY longer, nor is this the main topic of the thread. Agro changes to group play is the primary issue, despite your attempts to steer this thread in other directions.

Those of you who
1. only solo
2. enjoy trap use
3. don't care about extra time

likely will not care about the changes. The REST OF US DO!

And the rest of you should be playing a sorc if you want to wade in and kill, and beat the quest in the least amount of time possible.


Those people who's preferred game style's are unaffected seem happy to jump on the bandwagon in support of the changes. If trap DC's were cut in half, most of you would be on the forums crying bloody murder, and making a similar argument to what I am making right now. (What is the need for this nerf? It makes gameplay less fun, etc)

Its not the same, because different =/= nerf. Assassins can still be played effectively in all content, as I showed. The difference is if you play the PRE like its 2011, you wont gain the same results as you do if you play it using all options available in 2014. Instead of using those options (which means learning about them first) you come to the forums and declare the class worthless because it doesn't play like it did in 2011. Which is incorrect.

If you have any more myths that need debunking, let me know.

[nokowi]

And the rest of you should be playing a sorc if you want to wade in and kill, and beat the quest in the least amount of time possible.



Its not the same, because different =/= nerf. Assassins can still be played effectively in all content, as I showed. The difference is if you play the PRE like its 2011, you wont gain the same results as you do if you play it using all options available in 2014. Instead of using those options (which means learning about them first) you come to the forums and declare the class worthless because it doesn't play like it did in 2011. Which is incorrect.

If you have any more myths that need debunking, let me know.

Here is one myth: Why are you stuck in 2011? This change happened in 2014 in the last update.
Here is another: Anyone who played an assassin pre U22 and is upset with the agro changes should never have played assassin and should have rolled a sorc.

You lack credibility when you make statements like these.

[Chai]

Here is one myth: Why are you stuck in 2011? This change happened in 2014 in the last update.

No, it did not. Turbine has been off and on with what breaks stealth for a while now. This is the third time we have seen this change in DDO.


Here is another: Anyone who played an assassin pre U22 and is upset with the agro changes should never have played assassin and should have rolled a sorc.

Those are your words, not mine. My claim on that is if you are concerned with time of completion you should roll a sorc. Expecting stealth soloing to be as fast or faster than direct confrontation kill zone soloing is a poor expectation.


You lack credibility when you make statements like these.

Nope. The lack of cred is on you, when you have to be taught the entire history of the class/PRE and make statements about game mechanics which shows that lack of awareness of those things that now exist which help the player, then later on admit to not having known about them in the first place, then accuse others of lack of cred while having no answer for what they stated. Here again, you make another of those statements, that this wasn't a 2011 issue and U22 was when this happened. We dealt with it then, and we will deal with it now. Well, most of us will. Some will still want their easy button back.

Rogues are fine, people. They might benefit from some minor tweaking/adjustments to mob spotting mechanics, but the class is not worthless as claimed, not by a long shot. Stealth soloing is fun for those who are patient and willing to jump back in after a failure until they learn the mechanics, which contingencies work and when, etc.


So what is the time needed to do this? Back up your claim.

Please realize I am going to give you a quest and ask you to demonstrate for us just how successful and quick trap use is.

Instead of putting the onus 100% on the person who disagrees, and who already brought video evidence to the table showing you ways to make this work you weren't even aware of previously, you should be out learning the mechanics that allow you to play the rogue class in this fashion, to see what kind of mileage you can get out of it. The 100% burden of proof pushed to one side while the other flippantly challenges claims with impunity believing there is no onus on themselves to do the same is not only weak sauce, but it also a logical fallacy.

[G_Lich]

There are not many stealth options that can't simply be invised by scrollers, rogue mdps suffers because of squishiness (Fully geared rogues, at endgame will have difficulty soloing anything [anything can be solo'd with enough time on your hands, let's not get into the *Should they be able to solo?* discussion, other classes can, people come to expect it).

And the current theme of end game is "Throw as much trash at them as possible" which is fun, but extremely difficult for melee classes to handle and being chased by a pack until you can stealth again is annoying should you use your heavily invested enhancement ability. (Rogue being the squishiest of the bunch).

Back to the original point, assassinate aggro changes don't seem WAI (considering how assassinate WAS intentionally given the ability to ignore aggro). No need to get into how it was 4 years ago, 3, 2, who cares, we're just talking about the recent change, that's it.

I'm afraid I'm on the side of Assassin tree being useless (to anything other than SK who can jaunt out of aggro and re-stealth) - Even then, my 72DC SK Assassin has been rerolled to swash/ftr, Coup-de-grace has 20 more DC, the pendulum has swung and swung hard.

[Hoglum]

I started this thread on page 8.

Low and behold, I see Chai arguing with someone.

[nokowi]

There are not many stealth options that can't simply be invised by scrollers, rogue mdps suffers because of squishiness (Fully geared rogues, at endgame will have difficulty soloing anything [anything can be solo'd with enough time on your hands, let's not get into the *Should they be able to solo?* discussion, other classes can, people come to expect it).

And the current theme of end game is "Throw as much trash at them as possible" which is fun, but extremely difficult for melee classes to handle and being chased by a pack until you can stealth again is annoying should you use your heavily invested enhancement ability. (Rogue being the squishiest of the bunch).

Back to the original point, assassinate aggro changes don't seem WAI (considering how assassinate WAS intentionally given the ability to ignore aggro). No need to get into how it was 4 years ago, 3, 2, who cares, we're just talking about the recent change, that's it.

I'm afraid I'm on the side of Assassin tree being useless (to anything other than SK who can jaunt out of aggro and re-stealth) - Even then, my 72DC SK Assassin has been rerolled to swash/ftr, Coup-de-grace has 20 more DC, the pendulum has swung and swung hard.

The post U22 assassin play nothing like pre U22 assassin if you played at the front of the party in group settings. There is no danger to attacking agro'd mobs, and slowly chasing kited creatures. It is quite annoying. An assassin in a group now plays much more like other melee but in slow motion. Quite a few players have shelved their rogues for this reason (U22 agro changes). Quite a few also left when bard came out.

Assassin still works in a group but you can longer be at the front of the party in stealth. You have to wait for someone else to get agro, and then your hide/move silently skills no longer matter. I can still play my assassin effectively in a group, but it is just WAY less fun than it used to be. If you are one of those kill counters, I usually still beat bards and most other melee (for quests without large kiting areas or undead). So yes, assassin can be effective, it just lost most of the "shine" it had pre-U22.

You are going to be really upset if you return to the assassin class. And when you are upset with assassin don't listen to Chai and roll a sorc. Roll a bard.

FYI - I have sent a message asking dev's if this change is intentional/temporary. So far the DEV's have not communicated.

[Chai]

You are going to be really upset if you return to the assassin class. And when you are upset with assassin don't listen to Chai and roll a sorc. Roll a bard.

Just keep your assassin. All claims that the class no longer works are greatly exaggerated.

And have fun with it instead of flocking to the boards demanding easy buttons.

[Chai]

There are not many stealth options that can't simply be invised by scrollers, rogue mdps suffers because of squishiness (Fully geared rogues, at endgame will have difficulty soloing anything [anything can be solo'd with enough time on your hands, let's not get into the *Should they be able to solo?* discussion, other classes can, people come to expect it).

That's part of the problem, not part of the solution. Since there are a few FOTM builds that make short work of quests while soloing with minimal effort, this has become the measuring stick for success in all builds, classes, pre, etc. Its a poor expectation, poor measuring stick, and arguing based on this is what causes massive power creep, and a game with boss mobs that have 400k HP. Want to slow/stop stat/hp inflation in EE quest mobs. We need to stop embracing the "this thing I built needs to be as good or better as the best easy button currently in the game" mentality.

Its kind of ironic, that the OP has this obsession with bards being as powerful as they are, because its that very mentality where people demand everything to be raised up to the level of the current easy button that made them that powerful in the first place.

[nokowi]

Just keep your assassin. All claims that the class no longer works are greatly exaggerated.

And have fun with it instead of flocking to the boards demanding easy buttons.

Bard is the easy button right now, not assassin. You supported everything bard, so it is you demanding the easy button.

I am asking for a bug fix.

[nokowi]

That's part of the problem, not part of the solution. Since there are a few FOTM builds that make short work of quests while soloing with minimal effort, this has become the measuring stick for success in all builds, classes, pre, etc. Its a poor expectation, poor measuring stick, and arguing based on this is what causes massive power creep, and a game with boss mobs that have 400k HP. Want to slow/stop stat/hp inflation in EE quest mobs. We need to stop embracing the "this thing I built needs to be as good or better as the best easy button currently in the game" mentality.

Its kind of ironic, that the OP has this obsession with bards being as powerful as they are, because its that very mentality where people demand everything to be raised up to the level of the current easy button that made them that powerful in the first place.

I argued against the new bard implementation, You supported it. Go read your own posts.

[Chai]

Bard is the easy button right now, not assassin. You supported everything bard, so it is you demanding the easy button.


I argued against the new bard implementation, You supported it. Go read your own posts.

The screaming that bard was unplayable and worthless (like you are doing here) is what made Turbine respond and make it as powerful as the other current easy buttons.

Another history lesson. Turbines buffs and nerfs are fairly extreme. They are well known for nerfing what was optimal to the point where it is barely viable and also buffing what was viable to the land of OP. If given the choice between barely viable bards, or OP bards, Ill take OP bards. Its more fun to play and see other people playing it than it is to see a few niche people playing it while no one else wants to run one. So yes, I support it.

Its ironic that you provide such hyperbole laced feedback about how much rogues suck, because its that very type of feedback that Turbine responded to about bards when they made them very powerful.

So yeah, keep complaining that rogues suck and are worthless. Get a bandwagon going about it even. Ill be more than happy to play an OP rogue a few updates from now while you are on the forums complaining that the mechanics that make it OP aren't realistic, just as you did for bards. :p

[nokowi]

The screaming that bard was unplayable and worthless (like you are doing here) is what made Turbine respond and make it as powerful as the other current easy buttons.

Another history lesson. Turbines buffs and nerfs are fairly extreme. They are well known for nerfing what was optimal to the point where it is barely viable and also buffing what was viable to the land of OP. If given the choice between barely viable bards, or OP bards, Ill take OP bards. Its more fun to play and see other people playing it than it is to see a few niche people playing it while no one else wants to run one. So yes, I support it.

Its ironic that you provide such hyperbole laced feedback about how much rogues suck, because its that very type of feedback that Turbine responded to about bards when they made them very powerful.

So yeah, keep complaining that rogues suck and are worthless. Get a bandwagon going about it even. Ill be more than happy to play an OP rogue a few updates from now while you are on the forums complaining that the mechanics that make it OP aren't realistic, just as you did for bards. :p

I never made any post about bards needing a buff prior to the change. I argued against the changes made, while YOU supported them.

I did not ask for assassin to be buffed after bard was added. I asked for a bug fix.

I argued against an assassin DC increase.

Go hijack some other thread. Your claims about me crying for power increase are blatantly false. I have argued the exact opposite.

[Ashlayna]

I never made any post about bards needing a buff prior to the change. I argued against the changes made, while YOU supported them.

I did not ask for assassin to be buffed after bard was added. I asked for a bug fix.

I argued against an assassin DC increase.

Go hijack some other thread. Your claims about me crying for power increase are blatantly false. I have argued the exact opposite.

Then maybe you need to adjust your approach to the bug fix? Instead of coming here telling people they'd be better off playing a bard, since rogues have been nerfed to uselessness; a paraphrase of what you have actually posted in this thread since it's inception, you should have left out the emo complaints about how nerfed assassin is now due to the perceived bug with agro, and just commented on how borked the new agro system is. The former is counterproductive, and winds up with people reading you calling for buffs, just like the bard community has done for time out of mind, while the latter would have gotten a +1 from me, and no other responses. You instead chose to go over the top melodramatic about it, and now can't figure out why people are disagreeing with you.

Fact: The new agro system is borked for assassins.

Fallacy: Rogues are nerfed to uselessness by this bug.

You brought both of these to the table, and then complain when people comment about it, all the while continuing to throw it out there. So make up your mind, do you want to discuss the facts, or the fallacy? I'm with you 100% on the agro system needing attention, or some kind of acknowledgement that it's broken, or WAI, I really hope not.

[Relem]

It is actually pretty easy assuming you don't get any lag as they approach. You have a short window to hit the assassinate button before they bump you and you have to fight outside of stealth.

This has been around forever. 2-3 years ago, you didn't even need to hide behind anything.

It is certainly an effective tactic if you are not strong enough to melee a mob in about 20 seconds, or if a group of mobs is too tough for you to kill otherwise.

Actually, no I don't need to test it. There was another thread similar to this not long after the change. My activity log doesn't show it any more otherwise I would link it. But a brief summary.

Lvl 28 Shadar-Kai Assassin, with max Shadowdancer, in Stealthy Repossession at Elite level. 1st 2 levers pulled, not been spotted. At the 3rd lever, 1 sleeping kobold and nothing else in the room. No line of sight with any other kobold. These ARE the optimal conditions for an assassin. Kobold assassinated.

Now I'm not sure what happened next, maybe GCHQ or the NSA equivalent intercepted my internet traffic, spotted the assassination, then sent warning the kobolds in the adjourning room (who were also asleep at the time), because they came charging into the room AND CAME STRAIGHT TO ME!

I actually put a bit more thought into this. U22 was not long after the FIFA World Cup. Maybe the intention was for the assassin to run around the dungeon celebrating the beautiful kill that has increased the teams kill count, with the rest of the team chasing after him in order to congratulate the assassin. Heroic Team Kill Count 34, Evil Ugly Monsters Kill Count 1, the one coming from the assassin getting killed by 33 mobs who were also chasing the assassin around the dungeon whilst they were celebrating the kill. You have to admit, both look very similar.

[Nestroy]

... with the following observations...

Barbs - now the last class in the doghouse. Bug-ridden enhancements, no self healing to speak off and a ******** rage system that blocks ANY form of heal (even nobmagical means). Since Turbine is known to go from one extreme to the other I am sure Barbs will find themselfs on top of the self-healing DPS monstrosities soon(tm).

Sword&Board - not a class per se but a playing style - came into the doghouse after the SWF introduction. Not as good as two weapons, and much worse than SWF. Will get boosted rightfully with the new AC overhaul.

Heavy Armor - not a class either. Get´s buffed into orbit with the next update.

Ranged Rangers - only a hlaf-class since the ranger get´s good 2WF fighting skills too. Since the introduction of Monkchers and Bardchers and Shuricannons somewhat ******** to play. Will get nerfed with the next updatetoo, so our next dog house candidate.

[nokowi]

Then maybe you need to adjust your approach to the bug fix? Instead of coming here telling people they'd be better off playing a bard, since rogues have been nerfed to uselessness; a paraphrase of what you have actually posted in this thread since it's inception, you should have left out the emo complaints about how nerfed assassin is now due to the perceived bug with agro, and just commented on how borked the new agro system is. The former is counterproductive, and winds up with people reading you calling for buffs, just like the bard community has done for time out of mind, while the latter would have gotten a +1 from me, and no other responses. You instead chose to go over the top melodramatic about it, and now can't figure out why people are disagreeing with you.

Fact: The new agro system is borked for assassins.

Fallacy: Rogues are nerfed to uselessness by this bug.

You brought both of these to the table, and then complain when people comment about it, all the while continuing to throw it out there. So make up your mind, do you want to discuss the facts, or the fallacy? I'm with you 100% on the agro system needing attention, or some kind of acknowledgement that it's broken, or WAI, I really hope not.

My OP was complaining about the autospot. I am not sure where you see me complaining about other comments, other than Chai making blatantly false statements about me (asking for an easy button, asking for power creep, etc). If you have read my other posts I have argued against the power creep induced by the new bard, and against buffing assassins themselves. As I argued against the easy button of the new bard, Chai supported everything about it (100+ DC's, etc). I hope you can see why I might be annoyed by his accusations that I just want an easy button. They reflect his own statements much more than my own.

My own statements have said that assassin is still playable under 3 conditions:
1. solo content
2. you like trap use
3. you don't mind the extra time

The assassin class as I knew it does not exist in group play. This is what you see in the OP.

And yes I started a thread about the AGRO system with the purpose of including other classes that are also borked. I also contacted a DEV and got no response.

[nokowi]

Actually, no I don't need to test it. There was another thread similar to this not long after the change. My activity log doesn't show it any more otherwise I would link it. But a brief summary.

Lvl 28 Shadar-Kai Assassin, with max Shadowdancer, in Stealthy Repossession at Elite level. 1st 2 levers pulled, not been spotted. At the 3rd lever, 1 sleeping kobold and nothing else in the room. No line of sight with any other kobold. These ARE the optimal conditions for an assassin. Kobold assassinated.

Now I'm not sure what happened next, maybe GCHQ or the NSA equivalent intercepted my internet traffic, spotted the assassination, then sent warning the kobolds in the adjourning room (who were also asleep at the time), because they came charging into the room AND CAME STRAIGHT TO ME!

I actually put a bit more thought into this. U22 was not long after the FIFA World Cup. Maybe the intention was for the assassin to run around the dungeon celebrating the beautiful kill that has increased the teams kill count, with the rest of the team chasing after him in order to congratulate the assassin. Heroic Team Kill Count 34, Evil Ugly Monsters Kill Count 1, the one coming from the assassin getting killed by 33 mobs who were also chasing the assassin around the dungeon whilst they were celebrating the kill. You have to admit, both look very similar.

I read this thread, so I know what you are talking about. When you make your attack on a bluffed creature, you instantly become visible within xxx radius (even if you are in stealth). It is the exact same agro issue as becoming visible after assassinate, regardless of success. I have been able to bluff mobs 1 at a time if I stay far enough away from all but the bluffed creatures.

Bluffing mobs can still be an effective tactic, even with the messed up agro system. It at least works SOME of the time.

I am pretty sure none of this is intentional, although you would think when introducing a new agro system they would play test it. My hopes are for a bug fix. Every update introduces more and more bugs. I understand that mistakes happen, but I do not appreciate the lack of a response from the development team. A clear statement that this is a bug, and that it will be fixed would be a nice sign from the dev's.

[Chai]

I never made any post about bards needing a buff prior to the change. I argued against the changes made, while YOU supported them.

I did not ask for assassin to be buffed after bard was added. I asked for a bug fix.

I argued against an assassin DC increase.

Go hijack some other thread. Your claims about me crying for power increase are blatantly false. I have argued the exact opposite.

Bards were still buffed due to all the hyperbole laced feedback and your obsession with them being OP (which they are not) should have taught you the lesson to refrain from making hyperbole laced feedback that another class is worthless, lest they buff rogues to be OP.

I find it ironic that you are completely in support rogues having an easy button but then don't support bards having one. This shows an obvious biased agenda exists here.

[Angelic-council]

The screaming that bard was unplayable and worthless (like you are doing here) is what made Turbine respond and make it as powerful as the other current easy buttons.

He made a really good point actually. I don't want to say who said what, but whenever there is an issue and people start to argue over something, turbine has to response. It's not our fault that bards are powerful now. But, we are the part of it. It's not about who gets what ability, but why they get it for what reason. Every class should have their advantage and disadvantages, but instead, we are trying to make them all equal by asking turbine for buffs. It seems to me that, turbine is stuck in middle of this argument, that's why many bugs are not fixed yet.

[Gremmlynn]

I am pretty sure none of this is intentional, although you would think when introducing a new agro system they would play test it. My hopes are for a bug fix. Every update introduces more and more bugs. I understand that mistakes happen, but I do not appreciate the lack of a response from the development team. A clear statement that this is a bug, and that it will be fixed would be a nice sign from the dev's.I doubt they are going to make a clear statement that they simply don't know how to make their agro/AI code work perfectly in all situations until they actually figure out how to make it do so.

[Chai]

He made a really good point actually. I don't want to say who said what, but whenever there is an issue and people start to argue over something, turbine has to response. It's not our fault that bards are powerful now. But, we are the part of it. It's not about who gets what ability, but why they get it for what reason. Every class should have their advantage and disadvantages, but instead, we are trying to make them all equal by asking turbine for buffs. It seems to me that, turbine is stuck in middle of this argument, that's why many bugs are not fixed yet.

Historically agro after assassinate has changed a few times now, as has whether or not you keep stealth when performing specific functions like opening doors, chests, and casting.

The OP has quoted D&D rules religiously to argue that specific mechanics are not D&D esque, and I wonder why hes not doing so now. Could it be that its rule as written that attacks bring you out of stealth in D&D?

Conjecture that its a bug now is equal to the conjecture that it was a bug before, and that its fixed now. However the D&D rules on this one are not on the side of the OP, which is why hes not quoting them religiously like usual.

If hes attempting to gain a Turbine response, some objective feedback is in order. Labeling rogue a worthless class and summarily denying all other mechanics which have entered the game which assist in performing the role, and making accusations of lack of credibility against all who disagree, is why Turbine doesn't respond to these types of threads.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I think current ddo is completely rogue unfriendly.

I completely disagree with this. You want to assassinate, you just picked a prestige, a playstyle option. If you play with people who wont allow you to assassinate to your heart's desire, well then, its the people you are playing with that's the problem.

Not everyone plays with their blinders on one eye, and CTRL-Xing with the other eye. Assassins are not supposed to be an instant satisfaction playstyle. If you play every class the same, you cant expect class to perform the same way, it just wont ever happen.

Players cry for more balance and/or more ez buttons.... then complain when the game is too ez!

Assassins can assassinate. And dogs can bark. We good.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO.

Monk rage, Bard rage, and now Rogue rage!? Man you get around!



On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable

In combat, the Assassin is basically made for one thing: making the other guy die. Its control abilities are limited, and its survival stats aren't particularly reliable, but its damage output is very, very high. I expect the Assassin to be the one pouncing on disabled or otherwise engaged creatures and making them dead. They still can do this. So what... they can see you now. You killed someone -- they fell to the ground. They look kind of bloody, like someone just killed them. I'd call that more than a slight disturbance of the peace.


If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

Oops, I forgot to add Barbarian rage to your above list of rage fits...

In all seriousness, do you actually LIKE any of your builds???

[nokowi]

Bards were still buffed due to all the hyperbole laced feedback and your obsession with them being OP (which they are not) should have taught you the lesson to refrain from making hyperbole laced feedback that another class is worthless, lest they buff rogues to be OP.

I find it ironic that you are completely in support rogues having an easy button but then don't support bards having one. This shows an obvious biased agenda exists here.

I have stated that the current BUG in assassinate ruins the premier ability of assassins (assassinate). Many good players have quit playing their assassins. It is perfectly appropriate to discuss this on forums. Asking for a bug fix will not make rogues OP. They were not OP before the bug. Show me threads complaining about OP rogues prior to U22? They don't exist except in Chai's mind.

I find it ironic that you accuse me of being an agent of power creep. Who started a thread asking for a buff to THF? Who supported Bard DC 100 insta kills? (Chai)

Giving assassins the ability to reach a DC 74 (maximum possible) insta kill that actually works as intended is in no way OP, nor is it anything new.

[nokowi]

He made a really good point actually. I don't want to say who said what, but whenever there is an issue and people start to argue over something, turbine has to response. It's not our fault that bards are powerful now. But, we are the part of it. It's not about who gets what ability, but why they get it for what reason. Every class should have their advantage and disadvantages, but instead, we are trying to make them all equal by asking turbine for buffs. It seems to me that, turbine is stuck in middle of this argument, that's why many bugs are not fixed yet.

Who asked for an assassin buff? Not the OP. I asked for a bug fix. I am supporting the EXACT state assassin was in BEFORE bard was buffed. This request has nothing to do with bard. Did I ask for DC 100 with gear/build effort, and DC 80 without effort? Absolutely not. I Don't want assassin to be like bard.

[nokowi]

Monk rage, Bard rage, and now Rogue rage!? Man you get around!




In combat, the Assassin is basically made for one thing: making the other guy die. Its control abilities are limited, and its survival stats aren't particularly reliable, but its damage output is very, very high. I expect the Assassin to be the one pouncing on disabled or otherwise engaged creatures and making them dead. They still can do this. So what... they can see you now. You killed someone -- they fell to the ground. They look kind of bloody, like someone just killed them. I'd call that more than a slight disturbance of the peace.



Oops, I forgot to add Barbarian rage to your above list of rage fits...

In all seriousness, do you actually LIKE any of your builds???

Assassins can hide in plain sight, use improved invisibility, etc to do this in D&D. They could do this in DDO if they had high hide/move silently skills prior to U22. Thank you for sharing that you don't care about the new bug in U22 (auto spot regardless of skill or success). That doesn't invalidate the opinion of those people that do care.

[Gremmlynn]

I read this as someone's one trick ponies one trick no longer being universally applicable. Personally, I wish this happened more often as it might get players to fit their actions to the situation. Rather than always expecting the situation to fit their preferred action.

[nokowi]

I completely disagree with this. You want to assassinate, you just picked a prestige, a playstyle option. If you play with people who wont allow you to assassinate to your heart's desire, well then, its the people you are playing with that's the problem.

Not everyone plays with their blinders on one eye, and CTRL-Xing with the other eye. Assassins are not supposed to be an instant satisfaction playstyle. If you play every class the same, you cant expect class to perform the same way, it just wont ever happen.

Players cry for more balance and/or more ez buttons.... then complain when the game is too ez!

Assassins can assassinate. And dogs can bark. We good.

Assassins play more like other classes with the current bug. Every other class runs up to a mob and hits buttons. Assassins previously had some unique abilities IN COMBAT due to stealth. These are gone now. If you support less play options, or don't know how to play effectively at the front of the party, then yes you are good.

[nokowi]

I read this as someone's one trick ponies one trick no longer being universally applicable. Personally, I wish this happened more often as it might get players to fit their actions to the situation. Rather than always expecting the situation to fit their preferred action.

1. Let's put a major bug in the premier ability of your favorite class and see how you like it.
2. I have adapted. An assassin in GROUP play has 2 main options (for most groups). Work at the front of the party (risk vs reward) or work at the back (no risk but less reward) It's not difficult to stand at the back of the party and assassinate. That is the option that remains with this bug.

All of the other suggested options in this thread (bluff, shadow manipulation, traps) work well in solo play, but most groups are not going to wait for you to employ these. Assassins in group play now have 1 main option. It has no risk. The current system will not make players better, as you suggest.

[nokowi]

Monk rage, Bard rage, and now Rogue rage!? Man you get around!




In combat, the Assassin is basically made for one thing: making the other guy die. Its control abilities are limited, and its survival stats aren't particularly reliable, but its damage output is very, very high. I expect the Assassin to be the one pouncing on disabled or otherwise engaged creatures and making them dead. They still can do this. So what... they can see you now. You killed someone -- they fell to the ground. They look kind of bloody, like someone just killed them. I'd call that more than a slight disturbance of the peace.



Oops, I forgot to add Barbarian rage to your above list of rage fits...

In all seriousness, do you actually LIKE any of your builds???

I have posted on how much I enjoy playing a rogue. Search 'DDO Love Potion #9'

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

In combat, the Assassin is basically made for one thing: making the other guy die (unless the other guy is undead, plant, ooze... witch will turn the roles around for a straight 180 degrees). Its control abilities are none, and its survival stats aren't particularly reliable, but its damage output is situationally moderately high.

Fixed that for you.


I expect the Assassin to be the one pouncing on disabled or otherwise engaged creatures and making them dead.

Makes me sad reading this... And tells a lot about how you imagine assassins... support characters for the main stars - bards i guess.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I find it ironic that you are completely in support rogues having an easy button but then don't support bards having one.

Hm, let's see... Evasion, Uncunny dodge, Slippery mind, instant kill. Swash is such a rogue ripoff it's kinda sad. All that on a class that is actually free to multiclass but has no need necause it has everything...

Do you support rogues getting heals and fascinate?

[Gremmlynn]

1. Let's put a major bug in the premier ability of your favorite class and see how you like it.
2. I have adapted. An assassin in GROUP play has 2 main options (for most groups). Work at the front of the party (risk vs reward) or work at the back (no risk but less reward) It's not difficult to stand at the back of the party and assassinate. That is the option that remains with this bug.

All of the other suggested options in this thread (bluff, shadow manipulation, traps) work well in solo play, but most groups are not going to wait for you to employ these. Assassins in group play now have 1 main option. It has no risk. The current system will not make players better, as you suggest.I don't see it as a bug. I also wouldn't make a character who's "premier" ability is something that is situational at best.

Also, try waiting until agro is established before killing stuff, things likely will be to busy to notice then. It's silly to expect them not to when they have nothing else to distract them IMO.

[Chai]

Hm, let's see... Evasion, Uncunny dodge, Slippery mind, instant kill. Swash is such a rogue ripoff it's kinda sad. All that on a class that is actually free to multiclass but has no need necause it has everything...

Do you support rogues getting heals and fascinate?

Compared to what, rogue, tied for first for the most common splash in the game? Yeah, lets see indeed......

Bard is part rogue in D&D, and swashbuckler PRC is as well - you know, the rule set the OP cites religiously until it no longer back his case up. The only bards getting evasion are pure bards. Other wise they have to multi to get it. Its a pretty good trade off for a capstone. Bards evasion needs 20 levels. Rogue evasion needs 2 levels.

In the state DDO is in 2014 with the self healing situation, claiming healing is some kind of thing that can be balanced on is incorrect. Every other class in the game gets heals handed to them on a silver platter with minimal effort, including rogues. Barbarians are the last holdout, and only because they have to dismiss their class based DPS buff in order to do it.

[Chai]

Fixed that for you.

No you didn't. Situationally moderately high? -shows who is playing the class and actually using the available tools to succeed, and who isn't.



Makes me sad reading this... And tells a lot about how you imagine assassins... support characters for the main stars - bards i guess.

Because pigeonholing it into a "must kill on its own with 100% success and never be caught doing so with no help from others in the highest level EE quests" playstyle is the measuring stick for success on all classes?

Nope.

DDO has done enough to ensure people can solo to their hearts content.

[nokowi]

I don't see it as a bug. I also wouldn't make a character who's "premier" ability is something that is situational at best.

Also, try waiting until agro is established before killing stuff, things likely will be to busy to notice then. It's silly to expect them not to when they have nothing else to distract them IMO.

When poison attacks breaks stealth and they put it on a bug list, this clearly states that stealth should not be auto-broken by attacking. I am sorry if you can't understand this.

You can justify mobs facing other directions, around corners autospotting an assassin trained in stealth however you want. Hopefully D&D gameplay will trump your opinion, because you don't seem to understand that assassins are trained in stealth, and can kill without being seen in D&D.

Claiming an assassin should always seen has no more merit than saying they should never be seen. Having a hide skill check is the reasonable way to determine whether the assassin is spotted or not.

[nokowi]

Compared to what, rogue, tied for first for the most common splash in the game? Yeah, lets see indeed......

Bard is part rogue in D&D, and swashbuckler PRC is as well - you know, the rule set the OP cites religiously until it no longer back his case up. The only bards getting evasion are pure bards. Other wise they have to multi to get it. Its a pretty good trade off for a capstone. Bards evasion needs 20 levels. Rogue evasion needs 2 levels.

In the state DDO is in 2014 with the self healing situation, claiming healing is some kind of thing that can be balanced on is incorrect. Every other class in the game gets heals handed to them on a silver platter with minimal effort, including rogues. Barbarians are the last holdout, and only because they have to dismiss their class based DPS buff in order to do it.

If you think heals are on a silver platter for rogue, then we can assume all of your other statements are similarly ludicrous.

Bard was only part rogue in 1st and 2nd editions. DDO is based on ebberon which was not introduced until 3.5 edition of D&D. In 3rd edition (and in DDO), bard and rogue are separate classes. A bard is not part rogue in the eberron setting. DDO has none of the bard class requirements of D&D for 1st or 2nd edition. In first edition you had to take fighter, then rogue, then druid levels BEFORE becoming a bard. In 2nd edition you COULD NOT be both a bard and a rogue. We see none of this implementation in DDO.

A bard can take 2 levels of rogue in DDO and get evasion. They don't need 20 bard levels to get it. You can take 5 levels of bard and get an insta kill with much higher DC than you get out of 20 levels of rogue. Splashing other classes does not affect Bard insta kill DC. THIS IS UNLIKE ANY OTHER CLASS.

Stop calling assassin the EASY button, and wake up to the fact that Bard is the EASY button. Zergers are not playing assassins, they have switched to bard.

And stop insulting the remaining players that are good enough to succeed with assassin, and want a bug fix.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Fixed that for you.

LOL! No you broke it down so you can understand it, incorrectly of course, but I'll give you a cookie for trying. If you play your rogue with your blinders on, dont expect to do extraordinary damage.


Makes me sad reading this... And tells a lot about how you imagine assassins... support characters for the main stars - bards i guess.

You simply do not understand is all. I build and play all my toons with TEAMWORK in mind. Its how I play the game. DDO is not a solo sport for me. I've been playing this game over 8 years. I can solo on all my toons, many quests blindfolded probably after all these years.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Stop calling assassin the EASY button, and wake up to the fact that Bard is the EASY button. Zergers are not playing assassins, they have switched to bard.

And stop insulting the remaining players that are good enough to succeed with assassin, and want a bug fix.

Dude really? Zergers have ALWAYS played bard, and every other class. Insulting players??? What in the blue fuzzies are you talking about? Who cares what zergers or anyone else plays?? Is that supposed to mean something? It certainly doesn't to me. Find people you enjoy playing with, done, have a smoke.

[Gremmlynn]

When poison attacks breaks stealth and they put it on a bug list, this clearly states that stealth should not be auto-broken by attacking. I am sorry if you can't understand this.

You can justify mobs facing other directions, around corners autospotting an assassin trained in stealth however you want. Hopefully D&D gameplay will trump your opinion, because you don't seem to understand that assassins are trained in stealth, and can kill without being seen in D&D.

Claiming an assassin should always seen has no more merit than saying they should never be seen. Having a hide skill check is the reasonable way to determine whether the assassin is spotted or not.Being out of line of sight would. But if you play in my D&D game, the dude standing next to a monster falling over dead will generally will put them on alert somethings up. Being trained in stealth doesn't mean one can go down the line killing everything until that 5% auto-fail happens.

[nokowi]

Dude really? Zergers have ALWAYS played bard, and every other class. Insulting players??? What in the blue fuzzies are you talking about? Who cares what zergers or anyone else plays?? Is that supposed to mean something? It certainly doesn't to me. Find people you enjoy playing with, done, have a smoke.

Sorry, those remarks were intended towards Chai, who accused me (and all others) of playing a stealth assassin because he thinks only zergers play stealth assassins.
If you believe zergers play all classes, I hope you can see that Chai's statement about all stealth assassins being zergers who should play sorcs must be false.

The whole point of this thread is that there is currently a bug in stealth during an assassinate attack. The bug also severely affects the use of the bluff skill to draw single mobs without being seen. It should be easy for people to sign onto such a thread without being attack for being bad players, ruining the game, etc.

Chai also believes that auto-spot is not a bug, despite ddo bug posts that state the poison breaking stealth is a bug. If assassinate attacks were meant to break stealth the bug would have read 'non poison assassinate attacks currently fail to break stealth' . Any reasonable person can deduce that assassinate is not intendeded to auto break stealth in DDO. It is reasonable to come to the forums and ask for a bug fix.

Chai has accused me of
1. Being the agent for power creep in DDO (despite the fact that I asked for no power increase, and that he has in these forums (THF buff thread, support of bard DC thread, I'm sure there are more..))
2. Not knowing how to play my toon (because I take advantage of the unique ability of assassin to remain stealthed to its best advantage - seems like the characteristic of a good player to me)
3. Accused me (and all others who use stealth) to be zergers that should play sorcs
4. Insulted me and my gameplay repeatedly without ever seeing me play, and ignoring the testimonials of some good players that I know how to play my toon very effectively (79 lives to prove it - about 1/2 were rogue).
5. Falsely accused me of doing things that he does routinely (cites D&D rules in his threads while refuting use of any D&D rule in other threads because 'DDO is not D&D'. Chai cites D&D rules (incorrectly for the most part) when it convenient to him, and ignores them when it is inconvenient (usually a personal attack follow rather than a response to the current thread) I have consistently stated that I prefer the use of D&D rules whenever it translates to gameplay in an online environment, and that I support differences from D&D only when it is needed to improve the quality of online gameplay.

I apologize if my posts in this thread offend anyone, but it is difficult and frustrating for me to continue a thread with the sheer number of people that
1. Assign false statements to the OP without any knowledge of the OP (must be a bad player, wanting power creep, etc).
2. Don't understand D&D rules (stating that an assassin could never kill someone without being seen. There are skills like hide in plain site, spells like 'swift invisibility' that would allow you to be invisible after a death attack, and items like greater invisibility. A rogue can even make a death attack, turn invisible (swift) and move to a new location before others can act. I am not stating that I know every D&D rule. I am stating that I know enough about D&D that being able to remain hidden after assassinate is certainly a reasonable ability with adequate skills.

[Chai]

Sorry, those remarks were intended towards Chai, who accused me (and all others) of playing a stealth assassin because he thinks only zergers play stealth assassins.
If you believe zergers play all classes, I hope you can see that Chai's statement about all stealth assassins being zergers who should play sorcs must be false..

Lies.

Please quote where I stated this.


Chai also believes that auto-spot is not a bug, despite ddo bug posts that state the poison breaking stealth is a bug. If assassinate attacks were meant to break stealth the bug would have read 'non poison assassinate attacks currently fail to break stealth' . Any reasonable person can deduce that assassinate is not intendeded to auto break stealth in DDO. It is reasonable to come to the forums and ask for a bug fix.

Please quote where the devs stated this.

The fact that weapon effects apply first has been identified as a bug, and the intention of assassinate breaking stealth, are two different issues. If you disagree, quote where the devs stated otherwise.


Chai has accused me of
1. Being the agent for power creep in DDO (despite the fact that I asked for no power increase, and that he has in these forums (THF buff thread, support of bard DC thread, I'm sure there are more..))
2. Not knowing how to play my toon (because I take advantage of the unique ability of assassin to remain stealthed to its best advantage - seems like the characteristic of a good player to me)
3. Accused me (and all others who use stealth) to be zergers that should play sorcs
4. Insulted me and my gameplay repeatedly without ever seeing me play, and ignoring the testimonials of some good players that I know how to play my toon very effectively (79 lives to prove it - about 1/2 were rogue).
5. Falsely accused me of doing things that he does routinely (cites D&D rules in his threads while refuting use of any D&D rule in other threads because 'DDO is not D&D'. Chai cites D&D rules (incorrectly for the most part) when it convenient to him, and ignores them when it is inconvenient (usually a personal attack follow rather than a response to the current thread) I have consistently stated that I prefer the use of D&D rules whenever it translates to gameplay in an online environment, and that I support differences from D&D only when it is needed to improve the quality of online gameplay.

Nope.

What I really did point out you were....

1. Providing hyperbole laced feedback, which if acted on will result in power creep. I also provided examples of where this has occurred.
2. Not being willing to use mechanics that are available to play your toon (note how this is different than not knowing how to play) - you dismissed everything brought to the table including video evidence, then told us rogues are worthless.
3. Please quote where I stated people who use stealth are zergers. You cant because I stated the opposite. If you want to solo a stealth rogue, you cant be concerned with time of completion. Ive stated this multiple times in this thread and any objective reader will see this.
4. Nope. I refrained from turning it into a personal discussion until you began ranting about lacking credibility, then I posted video evidence you have yet to refute.
5. You have cited D&D rules religiously in the past few weeks, so this isn't a false accusation, its absolutely correct on multiple counts. I still don't see you citing D&D rules now however, because they don't support your agenda here.

Please also quote where I cited a D&D rule incorrectly. I have 30+ years playing through all of the editions and Ive been in test groups quite a few times for all editions save for 1E. Go ahead. Ill give you this one chance to quote where I claimed the things you are saying here, before I begin reporting every post where you accuse me of saying something I didn't. I would recommend refraining from this personal agenda of bringing my name up in your future posts as you have done in this thread in multiple posts here.

Balls in your court.



2. Don't understand D&D rules (stating that an assassin could never kill someone without being seen. There are skills like hide in plain site, spells like 'swift invisibility' that would allow you to be invisible after a death attack, and items like greater invisibility. A rogue can even make a death attack, turn invisible (swift) and move to a new location before others can act. I am not stating that I know every D&D rule. I am stating that I know enough about D&D that being able to remain hidden after assassinate is certainly a reasonable ability with adequate skills.

To claim they can use these with impunity and they always work would be wrong. Those skills and spells have limitations and can be countered quite easily. in P&P They do not allow for you to assassinate with impunity and have other entities on the board be completely unaware of your presence. Furthermore, intelligent epic mobs in D&D will see right through most of those, in many cases. If four people are standing close together in a group, you are not going to bump two of them off and have the other two stand there and do nothing like they do in DDO. They will be aware their buddies just took on wounds, keeled over and died, and be looking for you. In epic levels they will have spells/items/abilities they can use to detect you. They can also cast area spells that would prevent you from escaping.

There has to be some risk. In DDO building a ~120 hide/move silently character and expecting no mob in the game to see you kill off 1-2 of its friends that are right next to them, and further expect to continue to do this throughout the entire dungeon, is silly. Even with HIPS, to bounce back into stealth doesn't mean the mob is completely unaware of you. What it means is that it doesn't know what hex on the board to attack into. Some mass CC or mass dispel is in order at that point, or mass sleep, charm, etc...rogues will save is usually terribad.

You think you would have it BETTER or EASIER in PnP? Youd sneak in and kill 2 mobs, and the other two would be casting detect invis, AOE CC spells, mass dispel etc..., while contingency spells would go off for the mobs that just died, possibly frying you in the process, or dispelling and CCing you. No, you would NOT have it anywhere as easy in PnP as you do in DDO, because in DDO, the mob AI is not accounting for any of this, while in PnP you are playing against another person, and not a computer driven sack of hit points.


. A rogue can even make a death attack, turn invisible (swift) and move to a new location before others can act. I am not stating that I know every D&D rule. I am stating that I know enough about D&D that being able to remain hidden after assassinate is certainly a reasonable ability with adequate skills.

How? Describe it, line by line, round by round. Break it down for us.

Unless you are feated out the wazoo (on a feat starved rogue) you are not moving in, attacking, then moving back out. You can move in and deliver the one attack. It then has to succeed. Then mob has to fail save. Then you have an entire round before you get to move back out. Two other mobs just watched their friends take on wounds and die. You tell me how youd get away with this, and ill tell you how it could be countered. Want to back up those accusations about others not understanding D&D rules? Heres your chance to shine. Show us how youre getting out of that, on a round by round basis.

/punt.

[nokowi]

Being out of line of sight would. But if you play in my D&D game, the dude standing next to a monster falling over dead will generally will put them on alert somethings up. Being trained in stealth doesn't mean one can go down the line killing everything until that 5% auto-fail happens.

Correct. I didn't ask for auto success. Your NPC's/monsters would need to try and spot an invisible foe. They might swing wildly at squares. the assassin would have already moved away, so this would be difficult. The assassin would not be auto-spotted.

[nokowi]

Lies.

Please quote where I stated this.



Please quote where the devs stated this.

The fact that weapon effects apply first has been identified as a bug, and the intention of assassinate breaking stealth, are two different issues. If you disagree, quote where the devs stated otherwise.



Nope.

What I really did point out you were....

1. Providing hyperbole laced feedback, which if acted on will result in power creep. I also provided examples of where this has occurred.
2. Not being willing to use mechanics that are available to play your toon (note how this is different than not knowing how to play) - you dismissed everything brought to the table including video evidence, then told us rogues are worthless.
3. Please quote where I stated people who use stealth are zergers. You cant because I stated the opposite. If you want to solo a stealth rogue, you cant be concerned with time of completion. Ive stated this multiple times in this thread and any objective reader will see this.
4. Nope. I refrained from turning it into a personal discussion until you began ranting about lacking credibility, then I posted video evidence you have yet to refute.
5. You have cited D&D rules religiously in the past few weeks, so this isn't a false accusation, its absolutely correct on multiple counts. I still don't see you citing D&D rules now however, because they don't support your agenda here.

Please also quote where I cited a D&D rule incorrectly. I have 30+ years playing through all of the editions and Ive been in test groups quite a few times for all editions save for 1E. Go ahead. Ill give you this one chance to quote where I claimed the things you are saying here, before I begin reporting every post where you accuse me of saying something I didn't. I would recommend refraining from this personal agenda of bringing my name up in your future posts as you have done in this thread in multiple posts here.

Balls in your court.



To claim they can use these with impunity and they always work would be wrong. Those skills and spells have limitations and can be countered quite easily. in P&P They do not allow for you to assassinate with impunity and have other entities on the board be completely unaware of your presence. Furthermore, intelligent epic mobs in D&D will see right through most of those, in many cases. If four people are standing close together in a group, you are not going to bump two of them off and have the other two stand there and do nothing like they do in DDO. They will be aware their buddies just took on wounds, keeled over and died, and be looking for you. In epic levels they will have spells/items/abilities they can use to detect you. They can also cast area spells that would prevent you from escaping.

There has to be some risk. In DDO building a ~120 hide/move silently character and expecting no mob in the game to see you kill off 1-2 of its friends that are right next to them, and further expect to continue to do this throughout the entire dungeon, is silly. Even with HIPS, to bounce back into stealth doesn't mean the mob is completely unaware of you. What it means is that it doesn't know what hex on the board to attack into. Some mass CC or mass dispel is in order at that point, or mass sleep, charm, etc...rogues will save is usually terribad.

You think you would have it BETTER or EASIER in PnP? Youd sneak in and kill 2 mobs, and the other two would be casting detect invis, AOE CC spells, mass dispel etc..., while contingency spells would go off for the mobs that just died, possibly frying you in the process, or dispelling and CCing you. No, you would NOT have it anywhere as easy in PnP as you do in DDO, because in DDO, the mob AI is not accounting for any of this, while in PnP you are playing against another person, and not a computer driven sack of hit points.



How? Describe it, line by line, round by round. Break it down for us.

Unless you are feated out the wazoo (on a feat starved rogue) you are not moving in, attacking, then moving back out. You can move in and deliver the one attack. It then has to succeed. Then mob has to fail save. Then you have an entire round before you get to move back out. Two other mobs just watched their friends take on wounds and die. You tell me how youd get away with this, and ill tell you how it could be countered. Want to back up those accusations about others not understanding D&D rules? Heres your chance to shine. Show us how youre getting out of that, on a round by round basis.

/punt.



method 1:
Prior: study an opponent while unobserved but adjacent to the opponent. Make assassinate attack (standard action) - hide in plain site (move and hide as part of a move action) or cast invisibility swift

If you don't like standing next to the opponent you are going to kill,

method 2: study an opponent from further away, while unobserved. Make a spring attack, and either hide in plain sight, or cast invisibility (swift) after you attack.

There should be plenty of other ways to accomplish this in D&D. Greater invisibility is a nice choice as well.


Now as to d&d rules: You support bards being able to CDG a fascinated creature (doesn't happen in D&D). You support only bards being able to CDG (doesn't happen in D&D). You support auto success of CDG (80-100 DC's), and yet you cant support the idea of an assassin (trained in stealth) not being auto spotted. And somehow you hold me to entirely different standards than yourself (I must prove everything happens in D&D while you can ignore what happens in D&D).


It is a weak argument to say that if it hide should not auto-success, it must be auto fail (autospot). There is a middle ground (some sort of check to see if the assassin is spotted). You have no problem with auto-success when it comes to bards. Why the different treatment for assassins, who actually work to get gear/builds needed for effective DC's? I can take my int based assassin build with no gear changes, and adding 23 skill points into perform, get a DC 79 CDG. This is with no effort at all, no twists, no destiny, nothing but GH. This is with a 28 Cha. Thats right, a completely Str based 5 level bard has a higher insta-kill DC than a level 20 assassin with every resource put into assassinate DC.

Add a similar level of effort (Cha=68, +6 perform twist, +3 feat) and you are already at DC 103. Add bard skill songs, exceptional perform item, etc and the sky is the limit for bard.

[nokowi]

Lies.

Please quote where I stated this.



Please quote where the devs stated this.

The fact that weapon effects apply first has been identified as a bug, and the intention of assassinate breaking stealth, are two different issues. If you disagree, quote where the devs stated otherwise.



Nope.

What I really did point out you were....

1. Providing hyperbole laced feedback, which if acted on will result in power creep. I also provided examples of where this has occurred.
2. Not being willing to use mechanics that are available to play your toon (note how this is different than not knowing how to play) - you dismissed everything brought to the table including video evidence, then told us rogues are worthless.
3. Please quote where I stated people who use stealth are zergers. You cant because I stated the opposite. If you want to solo a stealth rogue, you cant be concerned with time of completion. Ive stated this multiple times in this thread and any objective reader will see this.
4. Nope. I refrained from turning it into a personal discussion until you began ranting about lacking credibility, then I posted video evidence you have yet to refute.
5. You have cited D&D rules religiously in the past few weeks, so this isn't a false accusation, its absolutely correct on multiple counts. I still don't see you citing D&D rules now however, because they don't support your agenda here.

Please also quote where I cited a D&D rule incorrectly. I have 30+ years playing through all of the editions and Ive been in test groups quite a few times for all editions save for 1E. Go ahead. Ill give you this one chance to quote where I claimed the things you are saying here, before I begin reporting every post where you accuse me of saying something I didn't. I would recommend refraining from this personal agenda of bringing my name up in your future posts as you have done in this thread in multiple posts here.

Balls in your court.



To claim they can use these with impunity and they always work would be wrong. Those skills and spells have limitations and can be countered quite easily. in P&P They do not allow for you to assassinate with impunity and have other entities on the board be completely unaware of your presence. Furthermore, intelligent epic mobs in D&D will see right through most of those, in many cases. If four people are standing close together in a group, you are not going to bump two of them off and have the other two stand there and do nothing like they do in DDO. They will be aware their buddies just took on wounds, keeled over and died, and be looking for you. In epic levels they will have spells/items/abilities they can use to detect you. They can also cast area spells that would prevent you from escaping.

There has to be some risk. In DDO building a ~120 hide/move silently character and expecting no mob in the game to see you kill off 1-2 of its friends that are right next to them, and further expect to continue to do this throughout the entire dungeon, is silly. Even with HIPS, to bounce back into stealth doesn't mean the mob is completely unaware of you. What it means is that it doesn't know what hex on the board to attack into. Some mass CC or mass dispel is in order at that point, or mass sleep, charm, etc...rogues will save is usually terribad.

You think you would have it BETTER or EASIER in PnP? Youd sneak in and kill 2 mobs, and the other two would be casting detect invis, AOE CC spells, mass dispel etc..., while contingency spells would go off for the mobs that just died, possibly frying you in the process, or dispelling and CCing you. No, you would NOT have it anywhere as easy in PnP as you do in DDO, because in DDO, the mob AI is not accounting for any of this, while in PnP you are playing against another person, and not a computer driven sack of hit points.



How? Describe it, line by line, round by round. Break it down for us.

Unless you are feated out the wazoo (on a feat starved rogue) you are not moving in, attacking, then moving back out. You can move in and deliver the one attack. It then has to succeed. Then mob has to fail save. Then you have an entire round before you get to move back out. Two other mobs just watched their friends take on wounds and die. You tell me how youd get away with this, and ill tell you how it could be countered. Want to back up those accusations about others not understanding D&D rules? Heres your chance to shine. Show us how youre getting out of that, on a round by round basis.

/punt.


OK Ill play YOUR game. Show me where the dev's said that assassinate SHOULD break stealth.

[Ashlayna]

Sorry, those remarks were intended towards Chai, who accused me (and all others) of playing a stealth assassin because he thinks only zergers play stealth assassins.
If you believe zergers play all classes, I hope you can see that Chai's statement about all stealth assassins being zergers who should play sorcs must be false.

The whole point of this thread is that there is currently a bug in stealth during an assassinate attack. The bug also severely affects the use of the bluff skill to draw single mobs without being seen. It should be easy for people to sign onto such a thread without being attack for being bad players, ruining the game, etc.

Chai also believes that auto-spot is not a bug, despite ddo bug posts that state the poison breaking stealth is a bug. If assassinate attacks were meant to break stealth the bug would have read 'non poison assassinate attacks currently fail to break stealth' . Any reasonable person can deduce that assassinate is not intendeded to auto break stealth in DDO. It is reasonable to come to the forums and ask for a bug fix.

Chai has accused me of
1. Being the agent for power creep in DDO (despite the fact that I asked for no power increase, and that he has in these forums (THF buff thread, support of bard DC thread, I'm sure there are more..))
2. Not knowing how to play my toon (because I take advantage of the unique ability of assassin to remain stealthed to its best advantage - seems like the characteristic of a good player to me)
3. Accused me (and all others who use stealth) to be zergers that should play sorcs
4. Insulted me and my gameplay repeatedly without ever seeing me play, and ignoring the testimonials of some good players that I know how to play my toon very effectively (79 lives to prove it - about 1/2 were rogue).
5. Falsely accused me of doing things that he does routinely (cites D&D rules in his threads while refuting use of any D&D rule in other threads because 'DDO is not D&D'. Chai cites D&D rules (incorrectly for the most part) when it convenient to him, and ignores them when it is inconvenient (usually a personal attack follow rather than a response to the current thread) I have consistently stated that I prefer the use of D&D rules whenever it translates to gameplay in an online environment, and that I support differences from D&D only when it is needed to improve the quality of online gameplay.

I apologize if my posts in this thread offend anyone, but it is difficult and frustrating for me to continue a thread with the sheer number of people that
1. Assign false statements to the OP without any knowledge of the OP (must be a bad player, wanting power creep, etc).
2. Don't understand D&D rules (stating that an assassin could never kill someone without being seen. There are skills like hide in plain site, spells like 'swift invisibility' that would allow you to be invisible after a death attack, and items like greater invisibility. A rogue can even make a death attack, turn invisible (swift) and move to a new location before others can act. I am not stating that I know every D&D rule. I am stating that I know enough about D&D that being able to remain hidden after assassinate is certainly a reasonable ability with adequate skills.

Looks at title of thread.

Looks at OP.


Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?

Disregards wall of text.

The thing is, as you can see from this copy/pasted quote of the OP, you are claiming that the class is broken. You aren't focusing on the apparent bug with agro, you are focusing on how the PRE is unplayable, in fact, as you can see from the bolded/italicized first line of your op. Of course, this is after you started off this rant with the thread title: Worthless classes in DDO. Again, here you are, perpetuating a fallacy that you claim you're not perpetuating. So make up your mind, are you wanting to discuss how the agro system is apparently broken in regard to Assassination, or how the class is worthless? You're waffling all over the place here, it's hard to take you anything like seriously.

[Angelic-council]

It seems like there is misconception. "Worthless classes in DDO" is little too much for a thread about strictly assassins. But, I'm sure that is coming from an anger.
If something was broken in the last update, and that is not a change. It has to be fixed no matter how differently you can play from now on. It's much like Implosion, I worked my way hard to achieve highest DC possible to just see, this spell is not working as indented. I received a lot of advices such as, "just solo" or "don't get near friendly allies" even "you are just a noob".. It doesn't solve anything, and because there is people like that, turbine is getting away with this. It's nearly 2 years since this is broken. And, if something is OP, I'm sure we can talk about it in another thread...

[nokowi]

Looks at title of thread.

Looks at OP.



Disregards wall of text.

The thing is, as you can see from this copy/pasted quote of the OP, you are claiming that the class is broken. You aren't focusing on the apparent bug with agro, you are focusing on how the PRE is unplayable, in fact, as you can see from the bolded/italicized first line of your op. Of course, this is after you started off this rant with the thread title: Worthless classes in DDO. Again, here you are, perpetuating a fallacy that you claim you're not perpetuating. So make up your mind, are you wanting to discuss how the agro system is apparently broken in regard to Assassination, or how the class is worthless? You're waffling all over the place here, it's hard to take you anything like seriously.

The title does not accurately reflect my statements in the thread. I was VERY upset to spend 4 years getting 3x completionist, 12 iconic, 36 epic lives solely for the purpose of returning to assassin, and to come back to a bugged assassin. I have been very specific to state exactly under what conditions the agro system causes problems. I have stated under what conditions assassin is playable. Please get past the title and read the posts, or move on to some other thread.

I have also found a bug that causes assassinate to not work properly. Check out my 'If found the bug' thread. When players describe the current state of assassin as 'bugged' they are quite correct. I am unsure how those of you not using stealth, who are telling me I need to learn how to play my toon, have been unable to detect this bug in your gameplay. It took me (and several other gameplayers only a small amount of time to realize the U22 system was screwed up.

1. SA bonus to hit is not applying to blinded (and I believe non-agro'd) creatures. This results in 'grazing blows' on low to hit rolls in EE content. Grazing blows (on low rolls) do not allow sneak attack or assassinate
2. I have combat log where a successful assassinate was made, the enemy was killed, and I got the 'killer' bonus. The mob did not die or take any damage.

How can anyone on this thread play assassin and not notice there is a problem? The answer is simple, you are not playing EE content, so you don't see the bug. That in and of itself is fine. Coming to my thread and telling me their is not a problem, and that I don't know how to play is not OK.

[nokowi]

Radiance weapon, Blindness traps.

Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.

Also any helpless mob is auto SA. For instance, if your rogue is in FotW, uses an adrenaline to knock a mob down, its in "helpless" mode, so if you drop into stealth and hit assassinate, it works.

And yes, "stealth" as in sneaking up to the mobs, is FUBAR in DDO right now because apparently even with over 100 hide and move silently, a fighter type mob with no spot or listen as a class skill can just see right through it. Its like the game isn't even paying attention to D&D mechanics and is just rolling probability dice based on proximity.

The trick is to use things that put the mob into a state where your attacks are considered sneak attacks, regardless if the mob has agro, sees you, etc.

Traps are now listed as being either 1/2 disable, (65% disable +1), (80% disable +2), or (100% disable device skill +3) under the Improved Traps of the Mechanic Tree. Int Mod is already in the disable device skill and is not added a second time. End game disable device should be in the 100-115 range, so this corresponds roughly to DC 55, 70, 85, and DC 110 traps for an Int build.

I would guess at least 2 points need to be put into Improved Traps to be effective on EE content (~DC 85).

I am unsure if the DC is based on when the trap was made, or the disable device score at the time of use.

[Chai]

method 1:
Prior: study an opponent while unobserved but adjacent to the opponent. Make assassinate attack (standard action) - hide in plain site (move and hide as part of a move action) or cast invisibility swift

If you don't like standing next to the opponent you are going to kill,

method 2: study an opponent from further away, while unobserved. Make a spring attack, and either hide in plain sight, or cast invisibility (swift) after you attack.

There should be plenty of other ways to accomplish this in D&D. Greater invisibility is a nice choice as well.


Now as to d&d rules: You support bards being able to CDG a fascinated creature (doesn't happen in D&D). You support only bards being able to CDG (doesn't happen in D&D). You support auto success of CDG (80-100 DC's), and yet you cant support the idea of an assassin (trained in stealth) not being auto spotted. And somehow you hold me to entirely different standards than yourself (I must prove everything happens in D&D while you can ignore what happens in D&D).


It is a weak argument to say that if it hide should not auto-success, it must be auto fail (autospot). There is a middle ground (some sort of check to see if the assassin is spotted). You have no problem with auto-success when it comes to bards. Why the different treatment for assassins, who actually work to get gear/builds needed for effective DC's? I can take my int based assassin build with no gear changes, and adding 23 skill points into perform, get a DC 79 CDG. This is with no effort at all, no twists, no destiny, nothing but GH. This is with a 28 Cha. Thats right, a completely Str based 5 level bard has a higher insta-kill DC than a level 20 assassin with every resource put into assassinate DC.

Add a similar level of effort (Cha=68, +6 perform twist, +3 feat) and you are already at DC 103. Add bard skill songs, exceptional perform item, etc and the sky is the limit for bard.

In DDO in epics you fight the same mobs you fight in heroics. Not so in PnP. The simple explanation you just provided can be countered in so many ways by a true epic mob (what youd be fighting in D&D) I don't even know where to begin. When you are studying the mob, what is the mob doing? Do you think epic mobs wont detect you? How are you getting through the fort most epic level mobs will have? How are you avoiding the multitude of contingency spells they will have readied?

As for bards, I already explained by position on them twice, the last two times you attempting to call me out on bards, right here in this thread. Theres no reason to repeatedly do the circle dance asking for a reason acting like one wasn't provided, when it was provided both times.

You are only comparing the DC for bards with the DC for assassinate, while ignoring all of the other things brought to the table, both in writing and video evidence, many of which bards do not have. Why? Because all of the stuff you don't want ot discuss, which you are glossing over, doesn't support your premise that the class is worthless. In order to discuss bards and compare them to rogues, you must discuss the entire class, and not just the one aspect.

[Chai]

How can anyone on this thread play assassin and not notice there is a problem? The answer is simple, you are not playing EE content, so you don't see the bug. That in and of itself is fine. Coming to my thread and telling me their is not a problem, and that I don't know how to play is not OK.

No one is saying there isn't a problem. They are just not providing hyperbole laced feedback, like calling an entire class worthless due to a few issues.

[nokowi]

No one is saying there isn't a problem. They are just not providing hyperbole laced feedback, like calling an entire class worthless due to a few issues.


Actually some people said exactly that. Others suggested that I should go try another class because rassassin wasn't for me, and that I didn't know how to play.

Some people suggested assassinating without being seen was impossible, and asked for examples of that happening in D&D. I gave them. I can give more examples if needed.

Some people suggested I just wanted an easy button (having the ability to hide after assassinate), while supporting much bigger easy buttons (auto-success CDG for bard).

Again, get past the thread title and read the content of the thread. You are beating a dead horse if you think I am saying the entire assassin class is worthless. Stop this argument with yourself. I have said exactly where assassin does and does not work in this thread.

This was a thread started to address the problems with assassin. Instead of investigating the issue/solution, some have decided to attack me as a player. You can read the thread and see who they are. Once assassin gets fixed, I will disappear forever from the forums. You of all people should support this effort, instead of attacking me as a person and as a player.

[Chai]

Actually some people said exactly that. Others suggested that I should go try another class because rassassin wasn't for me, and that I didn't know how to play.

Some people suggested assassinating without being seen was impossible, and asked for examples of that happening in D&D. I gave them. I can give more examples if needed.

Some people suggested I just wanted an easy button (having the ability to hide after assassinate), while supporting much bigger easy buttons (auto-success CDG for bard).

Again, get past the thread title and read the content of the thread. You are beating a dead horse if you think I am saying the entire assassin class is worthless. Stop this argument with yourself. I have said exactly where assassin does and does not work in this thread.

This was a thread started to address the problems with assassin. Instead of investigating the issue/solution, some have decided to attack me as a player. You can read the thread and see who they are. Once assassin gets fixed, I will disappear forever from the forums. You of all people should support this effort, instead of attacking me as a person and as a player.

That was all after you dismissed everything brought to the table whish showed the class can be played well in EE in favor is making accusations of lacking cred. This thread did no such thing as addressing problems with assassin. Starting with the very title of the thread itself, it was hyperbole laced feedback, and then moving on to dismissing everything that was brought to the table that showed rogues weren't indeed worthless as claimed, we can see that no fruitful discussion on the class can be had under those conditions. All we can do at this point is debunk the myth being perpetuated here about a supposedly worthless class, and show objective readers that they can indeed play it, even in the most difficult quests, as long as they have realistic expectations, and are willing to use the tools provided, rather than dismissing them out of hand.

[Thar]

play a pally tank... enough said... then you have reason to complain.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Compared to what, rogue, tied for first for the most common splash in the game? Yeah, lets see indeed......

Jeez chai, is there a limit to what you would do to pull of an argument? Even quoting some silly ddooracle or whatever info you pulled out that has no basis in real game atm?

But yes i do beleive rogue splashes got a boost recently. Not because of rogue class. The increase in rogue splashes can be credited to bard and an inability to multiclass with monk. Something you know full well.


Bard is part rogue in D&D, and swashbuckler PRC is as well - you know, the rule set the OP cites religiously until it no longer back his case up.

You seam to follow the same pattern aparently.


The only bards getting evasion are pure bards. Other wise they have to multi to get it. Its a pretty good trade off for a capstone. Bards evasion needs 20 levels. Rogue evasion needs 2 levels.

In the state DDO is in 2014 with the self healing situation, claiming healing is some kind of thing that can be balanced on is incorrect. Every other class in the game gets heals handed to them on a silver platter with minimal effort, including rogues.

So 2/20 class levels for evasion is a problem but using 1/3(4) twists is minimal effort? Interesting. Even more interesting if we consider how frontloaded the classes are in this point of the game.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

No you didn't. Situationally moderately high? -shows who is playing the class and actually using the available tools to succeed, and who isn't.

Shows who like to twist and turn. In order to quote a high DC that should work in high end EE's you'll consider Shadowdancer. When we are talking dps you'll consider a str based blitzer i guess.

Rogues sneak attack did not change much since pre motu, shadowdancers 6d6 is weak in todays standards. On the other hand, increased crit profiles, all the helpless dmg boosters did benefit every other class. So no, rogues dps is no longer top-notch dps. And as always above all else it's situational and very much so especially in the newer content.


You simply do not understand is all. I build and play all my toons with TEAMWORK in mind. Its how I play the game. DDO is not a solo sport for me. I've been playing this game over 8 years. I can solo on all my toons, many quests blindfolded probably after all these years.

TEAMWORK does not make balance of classes any less important, weak argument.


You are only comparing the DC for bards with the DC for assassinate, while ignoring all of the other things brought to the table, both in writing and video evidence, many of which bards do not have. Why? Because all of the stuff you don't want ot discuss, which you are glossing over, doesn't support your premise that the class is worthless. In order to discuss bards and compare them to rogues, you must discuss the entire class, and not just the one aspect.

No, please do a comparission of bards vs rogues class abilites, i think that should be interesting.

[nokowi]

That was all after you dismissed everything brought to the table whish showed the class can be played well in EE in favor is making accusations of lacking cred. This thread did no such thing as addressing problems with assassin. Starting with the very title of the thread itself, it was hyperbole laced feedback, and then moving on to dismissing everything that was brought to the table that showed rogues weren't indeed worthless as claimed, we can see that no fruitful discussion on the class can be had under those conditions. All we can do at this point is debunk the myth being perpetuated here about a supposedly worthless class, and show objective readers that they can indeed play it, even in the most difficult quests, as long as they have realistic expectations, and are willing to use the tools provided, rather than dismissing them out of hand.

Objective readers can see that I was trying to address the issues with assassin right now. Yes the Title of the OP was an overstatement. I can't express how upset I am that the dev's are unable to create and implement a new agro system without actually testing it. There was no reason not to leave this on lamania until it actually worked correctly. You can see my frustration in the OP.

Objectives readers can also see that, instead of focusing on assassin issues, you have decided to attack the OP. If I am off topic and addressing other things, it is because people like you are spouting nonsense (hide attempt after assassinate could NEVER happen in D&D). Objective readers can see that you have an ALL OR NONE philosophy, and as such have very little credibility on these forums.
Chai statements:
1. If you care about time, you cant play a rogue (play a sorc).
2. If you cant prove dev's intended stealth to be broken on assassinate, then Chai's position (WAI) MUST be true
3. Rogue assassinate (DC 74 max) is the EASY button while Swashbuckler DC 100 with a similar build effort is not.

You continually ask others to prove things, while offering little evidence yourself. If others can't prove things to your satisfaction, your belief is that the opposite must be true. This is a flawed logic system.

You make a big stink about hide attempt being impossible in D&D, and then when i do prove it, .... NO COMMENT - change topic - personal attack - etc. You are not having a discussion if you can't concede a point to other poster's.

In Chai's all or none world, if you want a fast car you MUST buy the fastest car, otherwise you don't care about speed. Now in the real world, people make decisions based on MANY factors. A person can look at price, styling, speed, reliability, etc and make an informed decision. Now back to DDO, a person CAN play a rogue and care about reasonable completion times, despite Chai's statement to the contrary.

Arguing that Rogue is more OP than Bard is a lost cause. Rogues have severe limitations. The U22 bard has none. It is the new EASY button. A new player can jump into EE's with bard. People are recommending this over Shiradi. A new player can't jump into EE's with assassin.

What exactly did I dismiss? The only fact you have added to this thread is letting me know that Trap DC's have changed. I went and tried some quests using the trap DC formula you posted. I hope you can excuse me for assuming that you knew what you were talking about. I found that traps did not work well in EE's. Why? Because you quoted an incorrect formula. Someone adding value to this thread would be able to mention exactly what gear, trap DC's are needed to be effective in EE's. It seems ot be beneath you to contribute actual content. You want others to do this work for you. I added that value to this thread (the real trap DC formula), not you. So while you accuse me of dismissing things, I AM addressing them, despite the pain and frustration involved with trying to have a discussion with you.

While you may or may not like my tone (I am frustrated with the lack of logic shown by Chai), I am willing to have a discussion.

I have stated in clear words that I will leave the forums forever once assassin is fixed.

As an objective reader, does this sound like someone wanting to address the problems with assassin?

Either
1. I am a liar
2. Chai has assigned incorrect motives to someone he has never met before

An objective reader should be able to figure out which is more likely

[nokowi]

Being out of line of sight would. But if you play in my D&D game, the dude standing next to a monster falling over dead will generally will put them on alert somethings up. Being trained in stealth doesn't mean one can go down the line killing everything until that 5% auto-fail happens.

Responding to your prior post, I have submitted a bug report for SA bonus to-hit not being applied on assassinate for blinded or non agrod mobs. This results in grazing hits for low attack rolls on EE content. Grazing hits do not allow SA or assassinate. Assassin is bugged. Now as to stealth breaking, we have a history since I've been playing (since 2010) of having the ability to remain undetected after assassinate. Prior to U22, this did involve checks for nearby mobs. You may believe there was a bug for 4+ years that was never mentioned. That is your right. I find this highly unlikely. It seems much more likely that there are some bugs with U22.

Responding to this post,

I guess HIPS and improved invisibility don't exist in your D&D game.
Yes it would be more likely for an assassin to use a ranged death attack. They would also get a hide check after this.
In D&D assassins of sufficient skill DO have the ability to assassinate and not be seen.

I will paint a third scenario, because we seem to have a lot of D&D players with either little creativity, or little understanding of D&D rules.

"A diplomatic official walks through the market to meet with a merchant. He is accompanied by 2 guards. Moving through the market, the diplomat notices a beggar with a long, bulbous nose. There is something familiar about this beggar... The diplomat approaches the beggar to question him. A passerby bumps into the diplomat. All of a sudden the diplomat drops to the ground. The guards turn their attention to the passerby, who is a young man who will later be identified as a local assassin (The guards got a brief glimpse of the assailant). The beggar reaches over and touches the assassin, and both the assassin and the beggar disappear."

Now in this scenario, the assassin was working with a mage to kill and safely dimdoor/teleport away. Being a very clever group of adventurers, the assassin has disguised himself as that of one of his rivals, and his mage counterpart has been made to look like this other assassins mage assistant in disguise. Not only has this group of adventurers gotten away with the assassination, they have pinned the entire affair on a rival faction.

Now this third scenario does involve a group of adventurers. The point is that assassins train/plan to do exactly what you say they should never be able to do (kill and get away unseen), and that it is certainly plausible for a skilled assassin to be able to do this. In the above scenario, the assassin could have used HIPS, or invisibility swift to have a good chance of getting away (hides and moves away from the diplomat before the guards can act) without needing magical assistance from the beggar. Moving around a corner, removing the disguise, and blending into the crowd would make it difficult to catch a skilled assassin. The assassin might even place a distinctive piece of clothing onto another passerby (a distinctive hat, etc) as they flee the sceen.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

balance of classes

D&D by its very nature isn't balanced. Likewise, DDO does not need to be nor should be perfectly balanced.

You are on a journey with nowiki seeking a perfect world that doesn't even exist on the Good Ship Lollypop. See?


On the good ship
lollipop
its a sweet trip
to the candy shop
where bon-bon's play,
on the sunny beach
of peppermint bay
Lemonade stands,
everywhere
crackerjack bands,
fill the air,
and there you are,
happy landings on a chocolate bar.

See the sugar bowl
do a tootsie roll
in a big bad devils food cake,
if you eat too much,
oh, oh,
you'll awake,
with a tummy ache.

[Ashlayna]

I'm an objective reader, who, after reading the whole thread, and all your waffling, is still reminded with every post you make how you started the thread.

First is the drama queen topic title: Worthless classes in DDO. What do you suppose the objective reader is expecting when they open, if they open, the thread? Do you suppose they are looking for a list of worthless classes? That would be logical to assume, since that's what the title promises. As a side note here, some of the objective readers didn't bother to open the thread. Why? Because they knew it was going to be somebody qq'ing about how broken their class is compared to some other class. They weren't far off from the truth, were they.

Then we get to the meat, the OP, which is a rant about how unplayable assassins are. Yes, I know, I'm supposed to get over that. I'm supposed to disregard that because some of the community came in and debunked the whole idea of the OP, that rogues, assassins in particular, are useless or unplayable, and yet, you persist. If not, why bother posting here, since you now have another thread discussing what you claim the focus of this thread is; the bug with agro. This leads me, as an objective reader, to the conclusion that you believe the class is unplayable in it's current state. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, and that's all you bring to the discussion.

If I gave two ***** about how a bard plays, I'd play one. I actually have a couple of bards, none of them level 10 yet, despite TR'ing my FvS twice since the bard update. Why? Because FotM is FotM. I have never perused the forums looking for a build that I'd rather use compared to the ones I do use. My AA FvS started EH VoN after 1/3 of the raid was complete, and still came in 5th on total kills. What do I need a FotM build for, when I can compete with them w/out having to copy/paste them. The same applies to my assassin. The current agro system is broken, I have two choices: adapt, or die. Evidence that the class is still playable has been presented, some of it by you, and yet you persist with the drama queen approach, instead of addressing the real issue. Your response to that: "find another thread" or "you have no credibility" etc etc. So I, as an objective reader, since I don't know either you or Chai, unlike you, going to guild chat in game to garner support, and I disagree with the basic premise of the thread: That rogues are an unplayable and worthless class in DDO.

I didn't make this **** up, and I couldn't. I read the thread. I indicated in my initial post that it doesn't matter how many lives you have, if you can't play the class, you can't play it. That doesn't mean it's unplayable, just that it's unplayable for you. Reading this thread objectively, that's the summarization I'm left with, since others, including myself, have indicated that they can play the class in the current environment.

Change of tack: Rogue dps has always been situational. Is the mob attacking me or somebody else? If me, then meh, if somebody else, then it's high. Is the mob helpless? Is it bluffed, blind etc etc. All the conditions that someone else laid out as helping other classes also helps rogues, and because it also gives rogues sneak attacks when it applies, it helps rogues more. If you're running your rogue w/out some kind of deception item, then that failing in your dps is on you, not the class. Until or unless the agro system is fixed, rogues are going to have to do what they are supposed to be really good at: adapt or die. Since some evidence of how you can adapt has been presented here, I guess the rogue players have made their choice: they chose to adapt. The only ones that seem to be disappointed with the class, via claiming it's unplayable, and disputing all evidence, including video evidence to the contrary, are the ones that, objectively reading this thread, wanted an easy button. They don't want to learn to play in the new environment, they want it easy, and then, they go on to compare it to CdG, which is 10 times more situational than assassinate. After all, all I need for assassinate is stealth, the mob doesn't have to be helpless, and I don't have to worry about party members breaking CC in order to perform an assassination, in fact, if they do, it makes it even easier on me. So drop the ***** envy, and adapt.

[Chai]

1. If you care about time, you cant play a rogue (play a sorc).


Its not that you cant play a rogue, but I don't recall an era where rogues were soloing quests faster than sorcs, and these agro changes have come and gone multiple times now in multiple iterations. So, yes, if you really do put massive emphasis on time of completion as a measuring tool in your argument, rogues might not be the class for you, but heres the kicker. Rogues never were the kings of fast solo quest completion in the first place - so its not like the agro change really dethroned them. They were never on that throne in the first place.



2. If you cant prove dev's intended stealth to be broken on assassinate, then Chai's position (WAI) MUST be true Until they announce otherwise, yes. Same went for when they first changes it so that assassinate did not break stealth. THey didn't come out and say that was wai either, we just continued on playing with the change. If they say its a bug, its a bug.


3. Rogue assassinate (DC 74 max) is the EASY button while Swashbuckler DC 100 with a similar build effort is not.

You are again discussing DC only while not comparing anything else, which is an incomplete argument at best, and glossing over anything that doesn't support your position.

- rogues get 2 shots which can kill 2 mobs (sometimes 3 with a DS), swash gets one shot
- rogues can attack when ready from stealth. Bard has to CC, the CC has to land, which means either...
.....A - they have to have a good DC on enchant AND good spell pen and land a hold, greater shout, dance etc or....
.....B - they have to land a melee CC, which can miss or be saved against.
..........AB - and only afterward do they get to perform the kill shot, which can also miss, and be saved against (albeit 5% of the time for the save) - grazing hits do not count for the melee CC or the kill shot.

- rogues have to be pure to have high DC where bards can be a 5 level splash and maintain a high DC
- rogues have a harder time getting to a high DC so have to build for int, where a bard doesn't have to build for max cha.

When you compare all pros and cons we see a more equitable comparison, rather than only stating the things which support a one sided biased agenda. The objective observer sees pros and cons in both - including but not limited to what I outlined here.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

D&D by its very nature isn't balanced. Likewise, DDO does not need to be nor should be perfectly balanced.

You are on a journey with nowiki seeking a perfect world that doesn't even exist on the Good Ship Lollypop. See?


On the good ship
lollipop
its a sweet trip
to the candy shop
where bon-bon's play,
on the sunny beach
of peppermint bay
Lemonade stands,
everywhere
crackerjack bands,
fill the air,
and there you are,
happy landings on a chocolate bar.

See the sugar bowl
do a tootsie roll
in a big bad devils food cake,
if you eat too much,
oh, oh,
you'll awake,
with a tummy ache.

Your logic is flawed.

Your song sounds like Asterix & Obelix bard stuff.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Your logic is flawed.

Your song sounds like Asterix & Obelix bard stuff.

My opinion doesn't need to make sense to you. That's why I called it "my opinion". Its also the opinion of many others that have actually played D&D for as long as I have (1976).

Asterix & Obelix? Really?

Listen & learn.... and say hello to Shirley for me... for she's making far more sense than this thread is....


http://youtu.be/WLLSqpYyPD8

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

My opinion doesn't need to make sense to you. That's why I called it "my opinion". Its also the opinion of many others that have actually played D&D for as long as I have (1976).

Asterix & Obelix? Really?

Listen & learn.... and say hello to Shirley for me... for she's making far more sense than this thread is....


http://youtu.be/WLLSqpYyPD8

Your opinion is open for discussion because you are publically expressing it. So deal with it.

D&D has nothing to do with DDO i hope we have already established this. I guess i failed to notice the many you talk about here.

This girl is adorable. The trick is not in the words tho, so don't get yout hopes up. :D

[nokowi]

Its not that you cant play a rogue, but I don't recall an era where rogues were soloing quests faster than sorcs, and these agro changes have come and gone multiple times now in multiple iterations. So, yes, if you really do put massive emphasis on time of completion as a measuring tool in your argument, rogues might not be the class for you, but heres the kicker. Rogues never were the kings of fast solo quest completion in the first place - so its not like the agro change really dethroned them. They were never on that throne in the first place.

Until they announce otherwise, yes. Same went for when they first changes it so that assassinate did not break stealth. THey didn't come out and say that was wai either, we just continued on playing with the change. If they say its a bug, its a bug.



You are again discussing DC only while not comparing anything else, which is an incomplete argument at best, and glossing over anything that doesn't support your position.

- rogues get 2 shots which can kill 2 mobs (sometimes 3 with a DS), swash gets one shot
- rogues can attack when ready from stealth. Bard has to CC, the CC has to land, which means either...
.....A - they have to have a good DC on enchant AND good spell pen and land a hold, greater shout, dance etc or....
.....B - they have to land a melee CC, which can miss or be saved against.
..........AB - and only afterward do they get to perform the kill shot, which can also miss, and be saved against (albeit 5% of the time for the save) - grazing hits do not count for the melee CC or the kill shot.

- rogues have to be pure to have high DC where bards can be a 5 level splash and maintain a high DC
- rogues have a harder time getting to a high DC so have to build for int, where a bard doesn't have to build for max cha.

When you compare all pros and cons we see a more equitable comparison, rather than only stating the things which support a one sided biased agenda. The objective observer sees pros and cons in both - including but not limited to what I outlined here.

Rogues DO NOT get 2 shots to a non-agro'd mob BECAUSE of the U22 bugs. If you supported a bug fix, you would have an argument that these classes are balanced. Unfortunately, you don't...

I will post a video shortly showing how screwed up assassinate is.


Have you ran a quest with a bard? They have no problem doing these things. Pretending this is some major hurdle is a joke compared to the amount of work it takes to get a workable rogue assassinate DC.

I have to conclude that the bard players you are comparing have fingers bigger than their keyboard keys...

Here is a recent quote I heard from a new bard player on EE content:

"I CDG'd every mob up to the boss and then got one-shotted, lol)"

Is this really the sign of a player that has made some major commitment to be able to CDG?

[nokowi]

I'm an objective reader, who, after reading the whole thread, and all your waffling, is still reminded with every post you make how you started the thread.

First is the drama queen topic title: Worthless classes in DDO. What do you suppose the objective reader is expecting when they open, if they open, the thread? Do you suppose they are looking for a list of worthless classes? That would be logical to assume, since that's what the title promises. As a side note here, some of the objective readers didn't bother to open the thread. Why? Because they knew it was going to be somebody qq'ing about how broken their class is compared to some other class. They weren't far off from the truth, were they.

Then we get to the meat, the OP, which is a rant about how unplayable assassins are. Yes, I know, I'm supposed to get over that. I'm supposed to disregard that because some of the community came in and debunked the whole idea of the OP, that rogues, assassins in particular, are useless or unplayable, and yet, you persist. If not, why bother posting here, since you now have another thread discussing what you claim the focus of this thread is; the bug with agro. This leads me, as an objective reader, to the conclusion that you believe the class is unplayable in it's current state. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, and that's all you bring to the discussion.

If I gave two ***** about how a bard plays, I'd play one. I actually have a couple of bards, none of them level 10 yet, despite TR'ing my FvS twice since the bard update. Why? Because FotM is FotM. I have never perused the forums looking for a build that I'd rather use compared to the ones I do use. My AA FvS started EH VoN after 1/3 of the raid was complete, and still came in 5th on total kills. What do I need a FotM build for, when I can compete with them w/out having to copy/paste them. The same applies to my assassin. The current agro system is broken, I have two choices: adapt, or die. Evidence that the class is still playable has been presented, some of it by you, and yet you persist with the drama queen approach, instead of addressing the real issue. Your response to that: "find another thread" or "you have no credibility" etc etc. So I, as an objective reader, since I don't know either you or Chai, unlike you, going to guild chat in game to garner support, and I disagree with the basic premise of the thread: That rogues are an unplayable and worthless class in DDO.

I didn't make this **** up, and I couldn't. I read the thread. I indicated in my initial post that it doesn't matter how many lives you have, if you can't play the class, you can't play it. That doesn't mean it's unplayable, just that it's unplayable for you. Reading this thread objectively, that's the summarization I'm left with, since others, including myself, have indicated that they can play the class in the current environment.

Change of tack: Rogue dps has always been situational. Is the mob attacking me or somebody else? If me, then meh, if somebody else, then it's high. Is the mob helpless? Is it bluffed, blind etc etc. All the conditions that someone else laid out as helping other classes also helps rogues, and because it also gives rogues sneak attacks when it applies, it helps rogues more. If you're running your rogue w/out some kind of deception item, then that failing in your dps is on you, not the class. Until or unless the agro system is fixed, rogues are going to have to do what they are supposed to be really good at: adapt or die. Since some evidence of how you can adapt has been presented here, I guess the rogue players have made their choice: they chose to adapt. The only ones that seem to be disappointed with the class, via claiming it's unplayable, and disputing all evidence, including video evidence to the contrary, are the ones that, objectively reading this thread, wanted an easy button. They don't want to learn to play in the new environment, they want it easy, and then, they go on to compare it to CdG, which is 10 times more situational than assassinate. After all, all I need for assassinate is stealth, the mob doesn't have to be helpless, and I don't have to worry about party members breaking CC in order to perform an assassination, in fact, if they do, it makes it even easier on me. So drop the ***** envy, and adapt.

I definitely hear you on the drama queen of the OP. Let me apologize. I wish I could change the OP title. I stand by my statement that assassin is unplayable and add the caveat (for those skilled enough to notice that things are not working correctly)

I see a problem with an 87 attack roll missing, and a 65 attack roll hitting.

http://www.fileswap.com/dl/akHxZkKpx8/
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/8bE2MMzKVk/

Those of us who know what we are doing notice when we get an assassinate roll on a webbed mob, but not a webbed + blinded mob. All is good...

My question to you who think there is no problem, How can you not notice these things during your gameplay?

I stealthed up to my first mob after U22, hit the assassinate button, and NO ATTEMPT was made! I am not even talking about the agro system after the attack.

All you would have to do is look at the combat log, and notice that your 87 assassinate attack roll was a MISS.

I have no ENVY of the "new" bard players. I just want my assassin fixed, the way it was before U22. How can that have anything to do with bard?

(I deeply respect anyone who played bard before U22 and I have no problem with anyone playing bard after U22 - play what you enjoy, but let me do the same)

In a DDO game where:
1. An 87 to-hit on an assassinate misses while a 65 hits
2. A webbed mob MIGHT get an assassinate attempt
3. A blinded mob MIGHT get an assassinate attempt

Yes, I would say the class is unplayable for those of us skilled enough to notice these things. This is NOT the assassin I played before U22.

It doesn't look good suggesting I want an easy button when you cant even notice the system is not working correctly. I do question your claim of being a better player than me, based on your inability to notice problems. Please stop insulting my skill. We can start an EE solo challenge if that's what it takes to get uniformed posters to stop claiming I am a bad player. I would guess that would sort out who knows how to play assassin and who doesn't. I have NO interest in this, but I am willing to do it if that's what it takes to get assassin fixed.

[Ashlayna]

If you cant see a problem with an 87 attack roll missing, and a 65 attack roll hitting, then have fun believing all is good.

http://www.fileswap.com/dl/akHxZkKpx8/
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/8bE2MMzKVk/

Those of us who know what we are doing notice when we get an assassinate roll on a webbed mob, but not a webbed + blinded mob. All is good...

My question to you who think there is no problem, How can you not notice these things during your gameplay?

I stealthed up to my first mob after U22, hit the assassinate button, and NO ATTEMPT was made! I am not even talking about the agro system after the attack.

All you would have to do is look at the combat log, and notice that your 87 assassinate attack roll was a MISS.

I have no ENVY of the "new" bard players. I just want my assassin fixed, the way it was before U22. How can that have anything to do with bard?

(I deeply respect anyone who played bard before U22 and I have no problem with anyone playing bard after U22 - play what you enjoy, but let me do the same)

In a DDO game where:
1. An 87 to-hit on an assassinate misses while a 65 hits
2. A webbed mob MIGHT get an assassinate attempt
3. A blinded mob MIGHT get an assassinate attempt

Yes, I would say the class is unplayable for those of us skilled enough to notice these things. This is NOT the assassin I played before U22.

It doesn't look good suggesting I want an easy button when you cant even notice the system is not working correctly. I do question your claim of being a better player than me, based on your inability to notice problems. Please stop insulting my skill. We can start an EE solo challenge if that's what it takes to get uniformed posters to stop claiming I am a bad player. I would guess that would sort out who knows how to play assassin and who doesn't. I have NO interest in this, but I am willing to do it if that's what it takes to get assassin fixed.

So now, even after explaining that I still find my assassin to be playable, it's my skill level that's called into question, despite your claiming that it's not, in this very post?

This, objective readers, is the point you should take away from this thread: It's not the class that broken, it's the person posting the thread. If not, he would have noticed assassination attempts that say they missed prior to U22, and yet, still killed the mobs. It's odd how, prior to U22, he didn't notice these issues, isn't it? I know I certainly did, and still do, but when I assassinate a mob, and the game says I missed, but the mob still dies, it's really not much of an issue. When I assassinate in a crowd, and move to another location when the mobs start swinging wildly at my last suspected location, I'm doing it wrong. I'm supposed to stand there and get hit so I can say "See, it's broken". So yes, objective readers, take note of the replies in this thread, if you've actually made it this far, and note what the problem really is. The class, and the Pre specifically are fine. There does seem to be an agro bug, where they notice you even when they shouldn't, but so far, it's all been wild swings in the general area where I killed the last mob, in so far as I have been able to replicate this bug, and is easily solved by not being there. Even with them swinging wildly like that, I have managed to pull off chain assassinations. It takes a bit, since I do have to wait for c/d of the ability, and for the mob to be swinging anywhere but towards my avenue of approach, but it's still possible to do. So take heart, gentle readers, there is hope yet for the rogue class, despite wild claims to the contrary.

[nokowi]

So now, even after explaining that I still find my assassin to be playable, it's my skill level that's called into question, despite your claiming that it's not, in this very post?

This, objective readers, is the point you should take away from this thread: It's not the class that broken, it's the person posting the thread. If not, he would have noticed assassination attempts that say they missed prior to U22, and yet, still killed the mobs. It's odd how, prior to U22, he didn't notice these issues, isn't it? I know I certainly did, and still do, but when I assassinate a mob, and the game says I missed, but the mob still dies, it's really not much of an issue. When I assassinate in a crowd, and move to another location when the mobs start swinging wildly at my last suspected location, I'm doing it wrong. I'm supposed to stand there and get hit so I can say "See, it's broken". So yes, objective readers, take note of the replies in this thread, if you've actually made it this far, and note what the problem really is. The class, and the Pre specifically are fine. There does seem to be an agro bug, where they notice you even when they shouldn't, but so far, it's all been wild swings in the general area where I killed the last mob, in so far as I have been able to replicate this bug, and is easily solved by not being there. Even with them swinging wildly like that, I have managed to pull off chain assassinations. It takes a bit, since I do have to wait for c/d of the ability, and for the mob to be swinging anywhere but towards my avenue of approach, but it's still possible to do. So take heart, gentle readers, there is hope yet for the rogue class, despite wild claims to the contrary.

Yes. All the assassin player I respected as good players have retired their toons.

There were NO issues prior to U22 with not even getting an assassinate roll on a mob. Not in solo play, not in group play, not on agro'd mobs, not on unagro'd mobs.

There are now.

When I assassinate a webbed + blinded mob, they cant be swinging wildly at me, now can they? Whats your reasoning for no assassinate roll at all in this situation?

Please watch this video and see how long after my (no roll made) assassinate attempt, the mob remains webbed and blinded.
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/5lvPvbVD43/

Sorry about the quality. I have a 1080p video file but it looks like garbage when viewed from that site. Hopefully you can look at the assassinate timer in the close up picture at the end. Look how long after the assassinate the mob is still blinded. The mob sways around in "webbed" mode the entire time.

[nokowi]

Yes. All the assassin player I respected as good players have retired their toons.

There were NO issues prior to U22 with not even getting an assassinate roll on a mob. Not in solo play, not in group play, not on agro'd mobs, not on unagro'd mobs.

There are now.

When I assassinate a webbed + blinded mob, they cant be swinging wildly at me, now can they? Whats your reasoning for no assassinate roll at all in this situation?

Please watch this video and see how long after my (no roll made) assassinate attempt, the mob remains webbed and blinded.
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/5lvPvbVD43/

Sorry about the quality. I have a 1080p video file but it looks like garbage when viewed from that site. Hopefully you can look at the assassinate timer in the close up picture at the end. Look how long after the assassinate the mob is still blinded. The mob sways around in "webbed" mode the entire time.

At this point in the thread, i want to say that I am not proud of the tone my posts have taken in this thread. I am enormously upset at spending 4 years to reach the point where I can play my assassin full time, max level, without any more TR'ing, only to find that my prestige class is riddled with new bugs solely due to U22. In many players opinions the agro system did not need changing, and U22 is worse than what we had before. I hope the few of you who chose to attack me personally as a bad player, wanting an easy button can now recognize that there are MAJOR issue with assassin right now. I would appreciate a re-focus of efforts in this thread to clearly identifying and solving a problem. This is all I have ever wanted in this thread...

Please, please, please stop the attacks on me as a player and as a person.

[Ashlayna]

Yes. All the assassin player I respected as good players have retired their toons.

There were NO issues prior to U22 with not even getting an assassinate roll on a mob. Not in solo play, not in group play, not on agro'd mobs, not on unagro'd mobs.

There are now.

When I assassinate a webbed + blinded mob, they cant be swinging wildly at me, now can they? Whats your reasoning for no assassinate roll at all in this situation?

Please watch this video and see how long after my (no roll made) assassinate attempt, the mob remains webbed and blinded.
http://www.fileswap.com/dl/5lvPvbVD43/

Sorry about the quality. I have a 1080p video file but it looks like garbage when viewed from that site. Hopefully you can look at the assassinate timer in the close up picture at the end. Look how long after the assassinate the mob is still blinded. The mob sways around in "webbed" mode the entire time.

I can't see the assassinate timer at all, in any of it. What it does look like is that you walked up to the mob and did a series of basic attacks. The whole video, even using the zoom feature on the player is a big blur. What I can see is not consistent with me making an assassination attempt. ie, I do the animation for the attack once, and then stand there if I'm not actively targeting or auto attacking. I get similar results to the video if I use any other skill than assassinate from stealth on a mob. What it looks like is you walked up to the mob while it was targeted and held down the attack button.

To address your other point, I notice it was the only mob in the area, so even had the assassination been attempted, it wouldn't have swung wildly, if the situation allowed, since it was the only mob, and it's not dead, it would have an exact fix on your location. Since these circumstances are different from attempting to assassinate a single target in a group, I'll just attribute that comment to you not understanding the difference between a group of mobs, and a single mob. I mean, for
When I assassinate a webbed + blinded mob, they cant be swinging wildly at me, now can they? to be a serious question in regard to my previous post, that has to be the situation, doesn't it? Doesn't that kind of lend credence to "it's not the class, the problem is between the chair and the keyboard"?

[Chai]

At this point in the thread, i want to say that I am not proud of the tone my posts have taken in this thread. I am enormously upset at spending 4 years to reach the point where I can play my assassin full time, max level, without any more TR'ing, only to find that my prestige class is riddled with new bugs solely due to U22. In many players opinions the agro system did not need changing, and U22 is worse than what we had before. I hope the few of you who chose to attack me personally as a bad player, wanting an easy button can now recognize that there are MAJOR issue with assassin right now. I would appreciate a re-focus of efforts in this thread to clearly identifying and solving a problem. This is all I have ever wanted in this thread...

Please, please, please stop the attacks on me as a player and as a person.

The first personal attack happened with your accusation of lacking credibility, post 124, after several tactics were brought up you were clearly not aware of and when you questioned them, video evidence was brought to the table to support it.




Trap use as shown would thus be useful less than 10% of the time. Is this really a solution to completing quests? Did you put any thought into how much time it would actually take to complete a quest this way?

Your stated solutions to assassin play (traps, radiance item) seem weak to me based on my experience. Your statement that time is not a problem seems weak to me. So when you tell us everything is fine, it lacks credibility (to me anyway).

Attempting to make it sound one sided wont work, when its right there for any objective reader to view. There is a problem with assassins, but its not nearly as exaggerated as the hyperbole youre posting here. When you talk like this to people, you can pretty much expect them to stop taking these claims seriously, and unfortunately the thread turns into pile on you yourself instigated.

BTW, Ive been playing quests all weekend on my rogue, and this issue isn't 1/8th as bad as its made out to be in this thread. There are other issues which are far more in need of attention.

[Indianwiz]

- Rogues/Wizards/Clerics/FvS have to be pure to have high DC where bards can be a 5 level splash and maintain a high DC
- Rogues/Wizards/Clerics/FvS have a harder time getting to a high DC so have to build for int/cha/wis, where a bard doesn't have to build for max cha.



ftfy.

Maybe the OP is wrong in calling rogue worthless (never played so far). But the above statements posted by you shows how the balance of power has completely moved to Bards and proxy-nerfed every other class.
CC? Yes
DPS? Yes
insta-kill? Yes
Evasion? Yes

Why roll a DC based rogue/wiz/cleric/fvs when a bard can do all the goodies and more? I am NOT asking for a bard nerf, but why was other classes abilities nerfed (recently, monk's QP; Wizards - continuous) in the name of balance?

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

There is a problem with assassins, but its not nearly as exaggerated as the hyperbole youre posting here. When you talk like this to people, you can pretty much expect them to stop taking these claims seriously, and unfortunately the thread turns into pile on you yourself instigated.

The OP might seam he is exagerating when considering only assassinate. But he is talking about assassins in general...

Do you want a class that can't handle 30% of the content in your group? Meaning in some (many) fights they are a dead weight on the group - just scaling the quest unnecessery and causing a potential group wipe (wouldn't you call this a big deterrant?).

Well i guess you do want 1 or maby 2 in a group depending on content to make the other 70% go faster (god forbid, not any more than that) but only if that class excells well above EVERYONE else in that other 70% of the content. Is this true for assassins?

[nokowi]

I can't see the assassinate timer at all, in any of it. What it does look like is that you walked up to the mob and did a series of basic attacks. The whole video, even using the zoom feature on the player is a big blur. What I can see is not consistent with me making an assassination attempt. ie, I do the animation for the attack once, and then stand there if I'm not actively targeting or auto attacking. I get similar results to the video if I use any other skill than assassinate from stealth on a mob. What it looks like is you walked up to the mob while it was targeted and held down the attack button.

To address your other point, I notice it was the only mob in the area, so even had the assassination been attempted, it wouldn't have swung wildly, if the situation allowed, since it was the only mob, and it's not dead, it would have an exact fix on your location. Since these circumstances are different from attempting to assassinate a single target in a group, I'll just attribute that comment to you not understanding the difference between a group of mobs, and a single mob. I mean, for to be a serious question in regard to my previous post, that has to be the situation, doesn't it? Doesn't that kind of lend credence to "it's not the class, the problem is between the chair and the keyboard"?

Watch the #2 blue button. There is a still image of it at the end clearly showing that assassinate was used while the mob was webbed and blinded.

Again with the personal attacks...

You normally can assassinate a single mob that is blinded. You go into stealth and hit the assassinate button. How can you play this class and not know this?

[nokowi]

The first personal attack happened with your accusation of lacking credibility, post 124, after several tactics were brought up you were clearly not aware of and when you questioned them, video evidence was brought to the table to support it.



Attempting to make it sound one sided wont work, when its right there for any objective reader to view. There is a problem with assassins, but its not nearly as exaggerated as the hyperbole youre posting here. When you talk like this to people, you can pretty much expect them to stop taking these claims seriously, and unfortunately the thread turns into pile on you yourself instigated.

BTW, Ive been playing quests all weekend on my rogue, and this issue isn't 1/8th as bad as its made out to be in this thread. There are other issues which are far more in need of attention.

1. Name these issues (contribute something to this thread...)
2. How bad is it. What doesn't work (contribute...)

What quests did you play? Were you soloing or in a group? What difficulty? Did you use traps, bluff, shadow manipulation? Under which situations? When did things not work correctly?

[nokowi]

The OP might seam he is exagerating when considering only assassinate. But he is talking about assassins in general...

Do you want a class that can't handle 30% of the content in your group? Meaning in some (many) fights they are a dead weight on the group - just scaling the quest unnecessery and causing a potential group wipe (wouldn't you call this a big deterrant?).

Well i guess you do want 1 or maby 2 in a group depending on content to make the other 70% go faster (god forbid, not any more than that) but only if that class excells well above EVERYONE else in that other 70% of the content. Is this true for assassins?

I want assassin to have the unique ability to remain in stealth (for a sufficiently skilled/geared assassin) during combat through their use of the assassinate ability. I want the assassinate ability to have a roll in a consistent and reliable manner (pressing the button always makes an attempt under conditions that allow it).

I gave up 122 hp and epic SA to have the highest possible assassinate DC. Losing 122 HP as a rogue is NOT the easy button. I enjoy the extra challenge, however, I would like this button to work.

[nokowi]

ftfy.

Maybe the OP is wrong in calling rogue worthless (never played so far). But the above statements posted by you shows how the balance of power has completely moved to Bards and proxy-nerfed every other class.
CC? Yes
DPS? Yes
insta-kill? Yes
Evasion? Yes

Why roll a DC based rogue/wiz/cleric/fvs when a bard can do all the goodies and more? I am NOT asking for a bard nerf, but why was other classes abilities nerfed (recently, monk's QP; Wizards - continuous) in the name of balance?

Because the dev's have no plan. Nerfing QP for having 80 DC (with gear/build sacrifices) while giving bard 80 DC (no sacrifice)-100 DC (build/gear sacrifice) is a sign of a lack of vision.

As to wizards, there is a delicate balance for a mass-kill DC based ability. This is a thin line to walk. Introducing a skill based insta-kill DC (CDG) that progresses differently than all other DC insta-kills is a sign that DC based builds with not be balanced any time in future.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I want assassin to have the unique ability to remain in stealth (for a sufficiently skilled/geared assassin) during combat through their use of the assassinate ability. I want the assassinate ability to have a roll in a consistent and reliable manner (pressing the button always makes an attempt under conditions that allow it).

I gave up 122 hp and epic SA to have the highest possible assassinate DC. Losing 122 HP as a rogue is NOT the easy button. I enjoy the extra challenge, however, I would like this button to work.

What you want is very reasonable. I want much more for assassin so i'm really puzzled what Chai and other oposition are complaining about...

[Ashlayna]

What you want is very reasonable. I want much more for assassin so i'm really puzzled what Chai and other oposition are complaining about...

I can answer this question with a simple request: Go to the Gen Discussion main page, and mouse over the topic title. The first words you see are the problem I have with this whole thread. OP makes a lot of claims that are unsubstantiated, or outright false. OP continues on to call other players unskilled, at best, even when they provide proof that the class still plays fine. I get he's your buddy and all, and ya' have to stick up for your buddies, but at least take him in the back room and straighten him out to the facts.

As a side note, just finished EH 3bc chain and Sentinels for the saga. Every time I tried to assassinate an eligible mob, it worked, and in no case did I draw agro from everything else in the dungeon, or the immediate area. So again, I am unable to reproduce this bug. The closest I got, again, were mobs in the general vicinity that saw their buddy die, and went wildly swinging to find me. Assassination never misfired, unless the mob moved out of range, such as when I tried to get one that was moving past me towards the group. Missed him by |--| much.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I enjoy the extra challenge, however, I would like this button to work.

Right, so you don't want a button to be labeled easy button. You just want an unlabeled easy button in which you can assassinate the mobs with easy button ease. Got it.


http://youtu.be/SD2rCi84oWI

This is a completely mislabeled thread which amounts to not much more than a suggestion and multiple flames by the OP and his buddy (calling out others as unskilled, including the Devs!). Should be moved to Suggestions & Ideas after a good cleaning.

[Chai]

What you want is very reasonable. I want much more for assassin so i'm really puzzled what Chai and other oposition are complaining about...

I am not complaining at all. I clearly demonstrated the tolls available to get the job done. You cant honestly dismiss those, especially the video, and then claim assassins are unplayable.

[Chai]

The OP might seam he is exagerating when considering only assassinate. But he is talking about assassins in general...

Do you want a class that can't handle 30% of the content in your group? Meaning in some (many) fights they are a dead weight on the group - just scaling the quest unnecessery and causing a potential group wipe (wouldn't you call this a big deterrant?).

Well i guess you do want 1 or maby 2 in a group depending on content to make the other 70% go faster (god forbid, not any more than that) but only if that class excells well above EVERYONE else in that other 70% of the content. Is this true for assassins?

Its called hyperbole laced feedback. In order to have a serious discussion the one way street shenanigans need to stop, and the discussion needs to be about all pros and cons of the class compared to others. What the OP is doing is only listing those things which support the agenda being pushed, and dismissing anything that does not, then turning it into a personal discussion when others bring up stuff that is advantageous for the class he is attempting to claim is worthless.

Cant handle 30% of the content? Hardly. Assassins can get close to no fail DC for most content in the game. Its only the highest level content, on the highest difficulty setting which isnt no fail, and even then its only some of the mobs that have a severely high fort save. Now tell me, are we using "no fail in all content all the time" as the measuring stick for success? If that is the case, the discussion is already flawed beyond repair. The expectations first need to be realistic before this kind of stuff can be hammered out.

[Chai]

1. Name these issues (contribute something to this thread...)
2. How bad is it. What doesn't work (contribute...)

What quests did you play? Were you soloing or in a group? What difficulty? Did you use traps, bluff, shadow manipulation? Under which situations? When did things not work correctly?

I already did contribute quite a bit to the thread. You dismissed it out of hand after admitting to not having ever used some of the abilities then made accusations of lack of credibility. Theres nothing here convincing me you wont do the same again when I reveal yet more you havent tried.

So now its your turn to convince us. You dont get to keep challenging others claims without supporting your own premise. How about you bring something to the table showing us what youre saying is true. Show us how rogues are worthless. Im not taking your word for it.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Its called hyperbole laced feedback. In order to have a serious discussion the one way street shenanigans need to stop, and the discussion needs to be about all pros and cons of the class compared to others. What the OP is doing is only listing those things which support the agenda being pushed, and dismissing anything that does not, then turning it into a personal discussion when others bring up stuff that is advantageous for the class he is attempting to claim is worthless.

The way i see, it's exactly what you are doing.


Cant handle 30% of the content? Hardly. Assassins can get close to no fail DC for most content in the game. Its only the highest level content, on the highest difficulty setting which isnt no fail, and even then its only some of the mobs that have a severely high fort save. Now tell me, are we using "no fail in all content all the time" as the measuring stick for success? If that is the case, the discussion is already flawed beyond repair. The expectations first need to be realistic before this kind of stuff can be hammered out.

Yes i was mostly talking about high fort mobs with sneak attack immunities.

What's realistic to you? Performing your 50% in those situations? I want ppl in my group to handle anything content throws at them, not shine where they are not needed anyway and cause a wipe in other situations.

[Chai]

Yes i was mostly talking about high fort mobs with sneak attack immunities.

What's realistic to you? Performing your 50% in those situations? I want ppl in my group to handle anything content throws at them, not shine where they are not needed anyway and cause a wipe in other situations.

Mobs with SA immunity arent as numerous as the myths perpetuated on the forums have you believe. Most constructs arent SA immune, and some undead arent, and the ones that are, int based assassins - the way you build an assassin anyhow - have the tools to handle it. Assassins are perfect for using two abilities to lower or eliminate SA immunity and get SA on most attacks, even in raid situations.

[PermaBanned]

Why roll a DC based rogue/wiz/cleric/fvs when a bard can do all the goodies and more? Maybe because the person rolling wants to play a DC based rogue/wiz/cleric/fvs and does not want to play a bard? It's not like all the above have identical playstyles...


Because the dev's have no plan. Nerfing QP for having 80 DC (with gear/build sacrifices) while giving bard 80 DC (no sacrifice)-100 DC (build/gear sacrifice) is a sign of a lack of vision. Remember, QP has no CC prequesit condition, it doesn't even require an attack roll nor does it use mana and it has the shortest Instakill cooldown timer. With the fewest limitations and highest rate of attempts, why should it have an identical chance of success with any of the other instakills? Just because you can't see what they see doesn't mean they're the ones "lacking vision."

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Mobs with SA immunity arent as numerous as the myths perpetuated on the forums have you believe.

I don't need to read the forums i play the game and talk to other players.


Assassins are perfect for using two abilities to lower or eliminate SA immunity and get SA on most attacks, even in raid situations.

Show me a video of your assassin shining in Lost In The Swamp and i'll buy this. Don't forget to display your high-end assassinate DC while you are at it.

[Chai]

I don't need to read the forums i play the game and talk to other players.

But you are subscribing more to myths perpetuated on the forums than striving to find whats actually really attainable in game. Again here youre blatantly dismissing claims unless video evidence is provide, putting the onus on others to prove those forum myths incorrect, when it is actually you who are in the camp of supporting the hyperbole laced claim of "worthless class". We know where this discussion leads, because the minute some video evidence pops up of people failing in specific quests, their errors in playstyle, and gear, are likely to be pointed out to show them that yes, they can succeed in that content, even on a viable, but not optimal, platform.


Show me a video of your assassin shining in Lost In The Swamp and i'll buy this.

Assassins can still reduce more than 50% fort in those quests and get SA on more than every other swing, so while they aren't optimal, they are still viable in that content. So you can find one or two quests where they aren't optimal. That doesn't equal unplayable or worthless. It means theres some content balance in place so they don't roflpwn in every single iteration of the game. How many quests are those plant mobs in again? For every one of those theres like 20+ quests where they shine, easily. The vast majority of content is assassin friendly, and finding a few examples that are not =/= worthless class.

Its actually your turn to provide some evidence. I already did when claims were made that specific things could not be done, and it was dismissed out of hand by those who had no answer for it. Some reciprocation is in order here for an equal footing discussion to occur.

[Enoach]

I think if we take anything from this thread about assassins it is as follows:

1. The change to agro that when a mob is hit or killed it alerts all mobs in the area has affected Assassinate

Now this change was intended to fix range pulling by going back to having to hit near a mob instead of hitting a single mob. A change I'm for.

I do agree that if something dies near a mob it should activate them, but Spot, Search and Listen should now be in effect and not automatically know where said assassin is currently

2. Emotionally charged Opening Posts will gather emotionally charged forum posters who actually simply enjoy carrying on a conversation 17 days longer then necessary simply for the desire to be "RIGHT".

In the end the question now to the Developers is: Was assassinate intended to be effected by the Ranged Agro change that recently occurred?

[Ashlayna]

I don't need to read the forums i play the game and talk to other players.



Show me a video of your assassin shining in Lost In The Swamp and i'll buy this. Don't forget to display your high-end assassinate DC while you are at it.

Why didn't you just pick the Black Loch quest to prove your point, or Two Toed Tobias in E3BC? I mean, if you want to paint the picture, paint it. Don't half step it. Hell, you could have gone with Haunted Halls too, right? As I said in my first post, undead are the bane of my assassin, even though I can still kill 'em. As are mobs that can see me even under Imp Invis, which makes sneaking up on them impossible to do. Yet I still manage to find a way to complete these quests. Just because I can't assassinate every mob I may come up against doesn't mean my character is broken. Raid bosses would be sort of pointless if I could one shot them all, wouldn't they?

[Chai]

ftfy.

Maybe the OP is wrong in calling rogue worthless (never played so far). But the above statements posted by you shows how the balance of power has completely moved to Bards and proxy-nerfed every other class.
CC? Yes
DPS? Yes
insta-kill? Yes
Evasion? Yes

Why roll a DC based rogue/wiz/cleric/fvs when a bard can do all the goodies and more? I am NOT asking for a bard nerf, but why was other classes abilities nerfed (recently, monk's QP; Wizards - continuous) in the name of balance?

Bards gaining power is not a proxy nerf to every other class. Nothing changed for any of the other classes because bards became more powerful. A proxy nerf would be if they raised the saves to compete with the high DC of CDG. THAT would be a proxy nerf for everyone else. This has not happened however.

This is what happens when accelerated power creep occurs. We see the difference in power between PRE created years ago versus PRE created recently. There are many people carrying on about nerfs on these forums, and theres a significant overlap in their ranks with those who supported multiple ways to accelerate power creep over the years. They are now seeing the result of accelerating the symptoms of mechanics and system monetization which they supported hand over fist for the past few years.

P.S. Wizards aren't really on that list. They can have a massive DC without being pure. Bards only get evasion when pure AND using swash capstone, and have to wait til 20 - which is far from the strongest way to build a swash. If they are pure spellsinger they aren't getting evasion as the spellsinger cap doesn't offer evasion, and cant take 2 capstones. Still far more powerful as a splash or multiclassed if going the melee route.

If there is one legit complaint as a rogue, its the last 3 iterations of "endgame" being laden with undead. On mobs that qualify for assassinate, they have no issue with the vast majority of them.

[Paleus]

I think that once a thread has reached a certain post count it should include a mandatory link to the folloiwng comic http://xkcd.com/386/

[Novalis]

It has been over 2 years since my last post, my last login, and my last game time. I quit playing in 2012 just after the release (debacle) of MOTU. I had been playing since late 2009 as a FTP and in that time seen DDO become such a great game, I did spend money, bought every pack, and at one time, became the best assassin on my server. But then, things started getting to me. I have some previous posts that unfortunately, won't link. But let's stick with the present. Over the months I had wanted to peek in numerous times but I would always check the forums first. Sure enough, not only was it more of the same, it had gotten progressively worse. By 2013 I thought I may as well delete my account and cut my losses and live with the happy memories I had off DDO in it's glory days. (Or what I would refer to as pre-Warner Bros.) I started playing DCUO at the beginning of the year and really enjoyed it, but it lacked the depth of the character creation that is truly unique to DDO. So once again I came to the boards and looked into the fishbowl. I was stunned to see the conversations that had been riddled with D0000oooo0000m for so many years, with people actually having fun, detailing new builds and discussing some of the great dynamics introduced to the game. That was all I needed. I came back after 2 years in hopes to at least reconnect with old pals, and maybe, just maybe return to a game that had made some much needed improvements from it's inflicted and saddened state.

When I came back it was disorienting to say the least. It took me awhile to see my toons were virtually relics and the gear I had, as a friend of mind said in her first tell to me since I left, "Your stuff is obsolete now. LOL." I fired back with the only thing I could. "Not obsolete, just antique." After some reconfiguration and familiarizing myself with all the changes, I took my assassin out for a spin. I could not contain my joy when I was transported back to 2010 and I could kill 2 in one shot and still remain in shadow. It was nice to be able to assassinate like I used to pre u13, which was a major gripe of mine but I accepted it until March of 2012. After resetting all my gear, hotbars, kicking off the ring rust and even using one of my LR hearts to get my monk configured correctly, it was nice to have my rogue back. I downloaded the updated planner. Started learning the changes to greensteel, augments and item effects, such as the very confuzzling "vitality" and it took me awhile to figure out it didn't stack. I had quite a bit of catch-up to do, but it would be worth it, because I got to enjoy my rogue just like before... This lasted for all of 3 days before being thrown into an even worse pit of drek. Worse than u13. Enter u22, the dream crusher.


I could go into some of the old issues that I still see present. You can find my old posts and even after over 2 years. They still resonate loudly. Since then, back in Oct of 2013, players dropped 25% and I can't even imagine what this latest update has done to the population, especially regarding the call for another server merger. I don't blame the devs like Cordovan who I would imagine has to squeak out smile after smile everytime he is given a memo by the WB owned Turbine and is forced to eat a big bowl of "steaming Baby Ruths", told to keep that smile for all the changes that are gonna be made. So Cord plans his wordsmithing to encourage solo play, overpowered builds that were never intended to work, but to make a buck the game dynamics have been reworked to completely render 80% of functional and VERSATILE parties and individual builds completely impossible. But Cordovan brandishes that peanut packed chocolate eating grin of Orwellia, slaps on a +6 tome upgrade to it that he can easily purchase at the DDO store. And after the last 3 years of failed attempts of innovation while overlooking the necessary components for a growing MMO that should be given more respect because of the name and it's now separate and long lasting legacy, the powers that be deliver the news to the once salivating and loyal patrons, which have been now been reduced to drooling and zombified consumers of Dungeons and Dragons Online, which the game has now essentially become an exceptionally painful exercise in daily autism.


Let me be the one to say this. Chai, I respect you and have for many years. But rogue assassins were not supposed to run around stabbing & running after anything that turns its back. The answer isn't just throwing blinding effects ad nauseum just to assassinate let alone to save yourself from getting mugged in EGH because of a failed assassination attempt. Time to take off the rose colored glasses Warner Bros. has secretly slipped over your eyes and admit to everyone. Rogues are among the many classes that got screwed but not nearly as bad as the innovative players that would have stayed or the new people that would have played, were it not for the blatant wrecking of anything resembling the game we came to know and love. This isn't about how one needs to adapt to the changes of the game. As I discussed with the most powerful Stalwart build on the server, he has participated in many of the test runs before the final roll outs. He advised against changes. They did it anyway, regretted the change and yet, he was man enough to never say "WE TOLD YOU SO." He also noted that ShadowFAIL along with some of the other packs have striking similarities to other MMO's and it's ripping off from other sources is directly because of the layoffs at Turbine. WB has had a horrible track record for anything they get acquisition of. When I was eager to start playing here again I tried to buy points but with the trouble I had with paypal, I called up Turbine and I actually got a refund. The guy I talked to was actually pretty cool.

With that said, and after what I have seen and experienced, I am going to side with Nokowi on this one. I wish I had just come in a little later so I didn't get my hopes up. I would still like to remember they heyday with smiles and laughter. But now, I think it's time to go the way of legends. Not going to chase mobs while trying to blind them, not going to spend months grinding for endgame gear just to TR, and certainly not going to play a game when I pay to play with people when "soloability" and "BYOH" is not taken as a sign of a broken game, but the accepted bias players now judge others on. Only one left to assassinate. I'd say it's me but WB/Turbine assassinated my toon and now the game so many times so cheaply, I don't even want a rez tossed my way. It was good to be back, for whatever it was worth.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

But you are subscribing more to myths perpetuated on the forums than striving to find whats actually really attainable in game. Again here youre blatantly dismissing claims unless video evidence is provide, putting the onus on others to prove those forum myths incorrect, when it is actually you who are in the camp of supporting the hyperbole laced claim of "worthless class".

Nah i was just shooting down your next hyperbole laced claim about you killing it using assassins trick and high fort reduction before it even happened.


We know where this discussion leads, because the minute some video evidence pops up of people failing in specific quests, their errors in playstyle, and gear, are likely to be pointed out to show them that yes, they can succeed in that content, even on a viable, but not optimal, platform.

Viable but not optimal? That's an oximoron in this game. It's also what bards used to be before the pass.


How many quests are those plant mobs in again? For every one of those theres like 20+ quests where they shine, easily. The vast majority of content is assassin friendly, and finding a few examples that are not =/= worthless class.

What are we talking about here? Old epics?

As i mentioned earlier, there is no need for the whole quest to be crowded with sneak attack immune mobs. A single room is enough for assassin not to be able to pull his weight and cause a group wipe. One wipe per quest is really all you need.


Its actually your turn to provide some evidence. I already did when claims were made that specific things could not be done, and it was dismissed out of hand by those who had no answer for it. Some reciprocation is in order here for an equal footing discussion to occur.

What evidence are you talking about? What specific things?

[Raithe]

It's also what bards used to be before the pass.


First of all, stop fighting with Chai. It makes people have to skip WAY too many posts to start reading again.

Second of all, the SECOND bard you added to a group was viable, not optimal. The first bard you added was and is so freaking optimal it's revolting. The most-optimal party has ALWAYS included a bard, because quite frankly there is NOTHING else in the game that can do what fascinate does, and as soon as Spellsong Vigor was released (an utterly terrible decision), the first bard essentially brought with them another caster or two. There is no arguing with the math. In high-speed quests I frequently dole out 3000 spell points per shrine. Probably about another 1k is saved from having Spellsong Trance apply to everyone but PMs.

Just because the other five members of the optimal party are all wizards, sorcs, favored souls, druids, or clerics doesn't make the bard class any less ridiculous. The FIRST member of the optimal party is the bard. Everyone else comes second or later.

[PermaBanned]

Viable but not optimal? That's an oximoron in this game. And let me guess, vanilla is the spice of life? I'ld much rather see a population/party of viable variety than optimal clones, tyvm ;)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Just because the other five members of the optimal party are all wizards, sorcs, favored souls, druids, or clerics doesn't make the bard class any less ridiculous. The FIRST member of the optimal party is the bard. Everyone else comes second or later.

There will always be an "optimal party configuration" which will naturally be debated as many times as we used to argue if Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle or Maris were the best or optimal. Was it the '27 Yankees or the '78 Yankees. Heck as long as it wasnt the Red Sox nobody cared (even tho it sure sounded like it to the innocent pedestrian with the displeasure of listening to us argue!!)

Turbine can not waste dev time on stuff like this.

Keep the eye on the ball Turbine. More content. More bug fixes.

** Paladin and Barbarian dev love makes some sense. I don't think Turbine ever truly got these two classes just right. Rogue is fine, just leave it is my opinion.

[Chai]

Nah i was just shooting down your next hyperbole laced claim about you killing it using assassins trick and high fort reduction before it even happened.

Nope. That's how people who play rogues kill fort immune mobs. What you did was find one exception to the rule, and then claim that refuted the rule, which is incorrect.


Viable but not optimal? That's an oximoron in this game. It's also what bards used to be before the pass.

Only for those who subscribe to using "must be no fail in the highest level EE" as the measuring stick for success, the other 99% of the game being ignored. The rest of us understand this isn't not true by a long shot. See below for refutation of this logic.


As i mentioned earlier, there is no need for the whole quest to be crowded with sneak attack immune mobs. A single room is enough for assassin not to be able to pull his weight and cause a group wipe. One wipe per quest is really all you need.

This is exactly what I am talking about right here regarding the faulty measuring stick used to perpetuate these myths on the forums about how the game is supposedly played. You go and find one room in one quest on one difficulty in a game with a couple hundred quests that can be played on 4 difficulties, then claim it refutes rogues are useful in most content on all difficulties most of the time. This type of over exaggeration is why this type of hyperbole laced feedback fails, and when Turbine responds to it they make classes OP.

BTW, since a few people are fixated on the power bards gained, and use them as an example of what is OP - in that same room in the same quest with the fort immune mobs, bards are just as useful as rogues. They cant CC those mobs, they cant CDG them, they cant reduce their fort even as much as rogues can. By your own logic, bards are dead weight in groups as well - because we were able to find one example where they are viable, yet not optimal, because according to you, that's an oxymoron in this game. They will cause the same wipe as a rogue would cause in the same room in the same quest in the same situation, according to your claims.

So either the claims of rogues being gimp, or the claims of bards being OP are false. Or both.


What evidence are you talking about? What specific things?

If you are supporting the claim made in this thread by the OP, that's on you. Its your claim.

[PermaBanned]

How many times have the words "hyperbole laced feedback" been used in this thread?

[Ashlayna]

Nah i was just shooting down your next hyperbole laced claim about you killing it using assassins trick and high fort reduction before it even happened.



Viable but not optimal? That's an oximoron in this game. It's also what bards used to be before the pass.



What are we talking about here? Old epics?

As i mentioned earlier, there is no need for the whole quest to be crowded with sneak attack immune mobs. A single room is enough for assassin not to be able to pull his weight and cause a group wipe. One wipe per quest is really all you need.

So what is the rest of the group doing in that "one room"? Standing around admiring their navels? Maybe they're pulling their own weight, instead of piking off the assassin? But wait folks, you read it here first: Groups cannot succeed in a quest if a rogue cannot assassinate the mobs in a single room of the quest. This is the layman's translation of this quote, after all, if, as you say, one room where mobs can't be assassinated is enough to wipe the party. How does anyone ever get through any of the undead heavy chains? So this is the reason nobody runs Necro, right? Rogues can't assassinate the mobs, so the group's just going to wipe, so we may as well skip this and go run Korthos again?

On a more "serious" note: I can pull my weight in Haunted Halls just fine. I switch to my "xx of Disruption" and go to town. Teamed up with Ethereal Bracers, or the goggles who's name escapes me right now, they're pretty damned effective. I guess if you only have one weapon set, and refuse to change, you might have a point, but that, again, is a failing of the player, not the class. I have yet to run a quest, or a chain, where my inability to assassinate every mob in every room led to a wipe, in any group I've been in. If you have, then I'd say you need to reevaluate the people you choose to run with. I've completed entire quest chains full of undead on my FvS w/out a rogue in the party at all. KInda gives the lie to your "that one room leads to a wipe, because the rogue can't pull his weight" theory, doesn't it.


What evidence are you talking about? What specific things?

What are you talking about at all?