Worthless Classes in DDO

[Ashlayna]

How many times have the words "hyperbole laced feedback" been used in this thread?

I'm not sure, but really, I think this:


As i mentioned earlier, there is no need for the whole quest to be crowded with sneak attack immune mobs. A single room is enough for assassin not to be able to pull his weight and cause a group wipe. One wipe per quest is really all you need.

would probably qualify as the text book definition.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Nope. That's how people who play rogues kill fort immune mobs. What you did was find one exception to the rule, and then claim that refuted the rule, which is incorrect.

How about you explain your self better? I'm not sure if english is your first language or if the problem is in me (also not native english speaker), but please tell me what in the part of my post you quoted is a rule and what is an exception?


Only for those who subscribe to using "must be no fail in the highest level EE" as the measuring stick for success, the other 99% of the game being ignored. The rest of us understand this isn't not true by a long shot. See below for refutation of this logic.

Nah i like that aspect of the game, one of the reasons i'm against CDG.


This is exactly what I am talking about right here regarding the faulty measuring stick used to perpetuate these myths on the forums about how the game is supposedly played. You go and find one room in one quest on one difficulty in a game with a couple hundred quests that can be played on 4 difficulties, then claim it refutes rogues are useful in most content on all difficulties most of the time. This type of over exaggeration is why this type of hyperbole laced feedback fails, and when Turbine responds to it they make classes OP.

OK... do you really not know that WHOLE quest is consisted of only undead, oozies, elementals and plants (-like 8 wolves and 4 bears)? It's been a long time since i played it other than ee, but i do beleive other difficulties are the same.

So please elaborate your previous statement before we start talking about other quests and "other difficulties". And beleive me i got enough ammo to drill you a new one. I actually played my assassin and felt the pain, i didn't just keep it for forum discussions.


If you are supporting the claim made in this thread by the OP, that's on you. Its your claim.

Maby you quoted the wrong part of my post... I asked you to point out to the EVIDENCE you were talking about.


So what is the rest of the group doing in that "one room"? Standing around admiring their navels? Maybe they're pulling their own weight, instead of piking off the assassin? But wait folks, you read it here first: Groups cannot succeed in a quest if a rogue cannot assassinate the mobs in a single room of the quest. This is the layman's translation of this quote, after all, if, as you say, one room where mobs can't be assassinated is enough to wipe the party. How does anyone ever get through any of the undead heavy chains? So this is the reason nobody runs Necro, right? Rogues can't assassinate the mobs, so the group's just going to wipe, so we may as well skip this and go run Korthos again?

I see what you did there. You are trying to be funny here while in the same time pointing out the content is too easy for you. Well good for you, welcome to the club of guild/channel/3BC destroyers.

And that's great. Your guildies will take your assassin without saying a word, you will prolly make enough kills to somewhat justify your title regardless of the quest, quest will be easy anyway, all good players, great comunication and sinergy. Nobody will even notice that the <insert elemental, plant, oozie, undead part> will be slightly tougher. Good for you.

Consider a whole pug of assassins playing a quest and getting to the tough part. What happens then?

And the most important question: just how many assassins do you take in a pug that has a reasonable ammount of sneak attack imune targets?

Last time i played an assassin i was rejected in a TOR pug. At the time it was new content, playing ee. TOR is actually great quest for an assassin compared to many other quests. So i just couldn't take no for an answer, and managed to get myself a place in the second run. I did justify leaders confidence and in the end tied kill counts with the shirady caster. Did i do good in the skellie part before each dragon? I mean we can split hairs here, but the truth is i was totally useless. Just a bag of meat to beat on that would require 5min of beating to justify a single energy burst.


On a more "serious" note: I can pull my weight in Haunted Halls just fine. I switch to my "xx of Disruption" and go to town. Teamed up with Ethereal Bracers, or the goggles who's name escapes me right now, they're pretty damned effective. I guess if you only have one weapon set, and refuse to change, you might have a point, but that, again, is a failing of the player, not the class. I have yet to run a quest, or a chain, where my inability to assassinate every mob in every room led to a wipe, in any group I've been in. If you have, then I'd say you need to reevaluate the people you choose to run with. I've completed entire quest chains full of undead on my FvS w/out a rogue in the party at all. KInda gives the lie to your "that one room leads to a wipe, because the rogue can't pull his weight" theory, doesn't it.

Thanks for all your educated guesses about my playing ability. You must have done a sherlock holmes on me and noticed all the saliva drooling from my mouth. *SLURP*

I think your and mine definition of useless differs quite a bit.

[Raithe]

...as we used to argue if Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle or Maris were the best or optimal.

The difference being that you couldn't get dead players together and run with them...

I didn't just wake up one morning and say, wow Bards are very lyrical and stylish... I'm going to call them overpowered. I am only a semi-musical person in real life, and I completely lack any sense of "fashion" or "melodrama." I would not be playing bards at all if I didn't run a half-million quests and come to the logical, controlled-via-experiment deduction that having a bard in the party made everything go faster, smoother, and much, much more efficiently.

Not to mention I had the additional experimental control of watching really, really bad players play bards like they were simply melee without any other perks, and noticed that even they really didn't fair any worse than any of the other melee characters played by horrid players.

This thread really is about verifiable results. There are a whole swath of melee characters including a good portion of the monk population that are woefully inadequate. If they change content one iota for the horrible misbalancing of Swashbucklers that you, the Player's Council, and a variety of other people have caused - they'll make playing assassins or any other mainly-melee type such a bad idea that you might as well start calling it Casters-Only Online (COO).

[PermaBanned]

Consider a whole pug of assassins playing a quest and getting to the tough part. What happens then?Rofl Are actually being serious here? In all my years of DDO, I've never had an entire pug of the same build/prestige happen. The closest I've come is groups of all one generality, ie I've seen pugs of all Arcanes (mix of Wiz & Sorc icons, varied builds) or all Divines (mix of Cleric & FS icons, varied builds); but I've never seen a pug of all the same icon, let alone all the same Pre/build.

You'll need to do better than far-fetched highly unlikely "what if" scenarios if you want to be taken any kind of seriously.


And the most important question: just how many assassins do you take in a pug that has a reasonable ammount of sneak attack imune targets?As many as hit the LFM, in the order they hit it. Not only am I completely unable to tell (assuming I don't already know the player/character by name) if that Rogue icon is a Mechanic, Acrobat or Assassin, I don't care. I figure I put up an LFM for a quest, and the people hitting it are wanting to run it - presumably with some level of confidence they can contribute to a successful completion.

If you're being interviewed prior to acceptance into a pug to determine your builds worthiness, then my advice is that you should start expanding your squelch list to weed out those idgits.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Rofl Are actually being serious here? In all my years of DDO, I've never had an entire pug of the same build/prestige happen. The closest I've come is groups of all one generality, ie I've seen pugs of all Arcanes (mix of Wiz & Sorc icons, varied builds) or all Divines (mix of Cleric & FS icons, varied builds); but I've never seen a pug of all the same icon, let alone all the same Pre/build.

You'll need to do better than far-fetched highly unlikely "what if" scenarios if you want to be taken any kind of seriously.

I never said it happened, it's just an example of a teoretically possible disaster. I have seen a full group of monks, this was common at some time. The reason you will probably never see more than 2-3 rogues in a group is because the class is not popular, and i'm here trying to explain why.


As many as hit the LFM, in the order they hit it. Not only am I completely unable to tell (assuming I don't already know the player/character by name) if that Rogue icon is a Mechanic, Acrobat or Assassin, I don't care. I figure I put up an LFM for a quest, and the people hitting it are wanting to run it - presumably with some level of confidence they can contribute to a successful completion.

If you're being interviewed prior to acceptance into a pug to determine your builds worthiness, then my advice is that you should start expanding your squelch list to weed out those idgits.

Even when playing new content on ee? If so gratz to you you are one of the rare.

If you never wiped in a TRUE ee pug (meaning you did not invite anyone you know to help) you did not pug ee end content at all.

As a true puger that 99% pugs for over 3 years, i can confirm getting 5 completely useless person is not that rare an ocasion as you might think. Once most people get bitten, they don't accept anyone any more. Some builds can carry a high lvl, 6 player scaled ee, some can't (regardless of the player behind the keyboard). I also take anyone that joins because i like the challenge and the uncertainty but from experiance i can tell you many people don't.

But we have moved too far into pug domain here, let's get back to rogue..

[Ashlayna]

How about you explain your self better? I'm not sure if english is your first language or if the problem is in me (also not native english speaker), but please tell me what in the part of my post you quoted is a rule and what is an exception?



Nah i like that aspect of the game, one of the reasons i'm against CDG.



OK... do you really not know that WHOLE quest is consisted of only undead, oozies, elementals and plants (-like 8 wolves and 4 bears)? It's been a long time since i played it other than ee, but i do beleive other difficulties are the same.

So please elaborate your previous statement before we start talking about other quests and "other difficulties". And beleive me i got enough ammo to drill you a new one. I actually played my assassin and felt the pain, i didn't just keep it for forum discussions.



Maby you quoted the wrong part of my post... I asked you to point out to the EVIDENCE you were talking about.



I see what you did there. You are trying to be funny here while in the same time pointing out the content is too easy for you. Well good for you, welcome to the club of guild/channel/3BC destroyers.

And that's great. Your guildies will take your assassin without saying a word, you will prolly make enough kills to somewhat justify your title regardless of the quest, quest will be easy anyway, all good players, great comunication and sinergy. Nobody will even notice that the <insert elemental, plant, oozie, undead part> will be slightly tougher. Good for you.

Consider a whole pug of assassins playing a quest and getting to the tough part. What happens then?

And the most important question: just how many assassins do you take in a pug that has a reasonable ammount of sneak attack imune targets?

Last time i played an assassin i was rejected in a TOR pug. At the time it was new content, playing ee. TOR is actually great quest for an assassin compared to many other quests. So i just couldn't take no for an answer, and managed to get myself a place in the second run. I did justify leaders confidence and in the end tied kill counts with the shirady caster. Did i do good in the skellie part before each dragon? I mean we can split hairs here, but the truth is i was totally useless. Just a bag of meat to beat on that would require 5min of beating to justify a single energy burst.



Thanks for all your educated guesses about my playing ability. You must have done a sherlock holmes on me and noticed all the saliva drooling from my mouth. *SLURP*

I think your and mine definition of useless differs quite a bit.

Evidently they do, because I see useless as the very literal definition, and nothing about a properly played rogue screams useless to me.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The difference being that you couldn't get dead players together and run with them...

I didn't just wake up one morning and say, wow Bards are very lyrical and stylish... I'm going to call them overpowered. I am only a semi-musical person in real life, and I completely lack any sense of "fashion" or "melodrama." I would not be playing bards at all if I didn't run a half-million quests and come to the logical, controlled-via-experiment deduction that having a bard in the party made everything go faster, smoother, and much, much more efficiently.

Not to mention I had the additional experimental control of watching really, really bad players play bards like they were simply melee without any other perks, and noticed that even they really didn't fair any worse than any of the other melee characters played by horrid players.

This thread really is about verifiable results. There are a whole swath of melee characters including a good portion of the monk population that are woefully inadequate. If they change content one iota for the horrible misbalancing of Swashbucklers that you, the Player's Council, and a variety of other people have caused - they'll make playing assassins or any other mainly-melee type such a bad idea that you might as well start calling it Casters-Only Online (COO).

This thread has a first name, It's O-S-C-A-R. This thread has a second name, It's M-A-Y-E-R. How I love to read it everyday.... :rolleyes:

This thread is misnamed: Worthless Threads in DDO (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446309-Worthless-Classes-in-DDO?p=5394341&viewfull=1#post5394341) would have been far more apropos in my opinion...

What I have promoted and supported for many years was adding more spells to all bards... that's been my focus. Not once did I request a swashbuckler. However I absolutely approve what they did with them.

Much of what we received, many in the bard community have been asking for many years. The changes have been nothing short of outstanding. It was a lot of damned good work, and was an example of what can be accomplished when the devs, the Player Council, and the DDO community work together. Kudos to 'em.

While you were performing your "logical, controlled-via-experiment deduction that having a bard in the party made everything go faster, smoother, and much, much more efficiently" this year, many in the bard community deductively reasoned this back in 2005/06. Bards have ALWAYS had the ability to make parties more efficient... and really good bards can practically dominate a playing field and drastically alter the way a quest is run and secure a beneficial end result (victory).

In fact, I think you should THANK TURBINE for giving bards the lovin they got - since now people are starting to realize how good bards really can be.

You are apparently playing bard not for the fun of it... you are playing it because you feel you NEED TO to be optimal... by your own words. This I admit will be a sad outcome of their hard work.

[Raithe]

...and nothing about a properly played rogue screams useless to me.

It doesn't seem like people actually have found this completely out yet, but they made magical trap DCs match the elemental damage trap versions. Rogues can now cast DC 100+ webs and halt undeads, glitterdust, and hypnotic patterns. The only thing this demonstrates, however, is that uselessness is fairly relative. When a DC 60 web works almost as well and is far easier to manipulate and make effective, the fact that a rogue could web more mobs more reliably doesn't really come into play. It doesn't make the rogue "useless" in the absolute sense, just in specific, relative situations where their abilities have been usurped by something else. Say, like giving a class good at everything else besides personal damage an instakill ability directly comparable and superior to a rogue's assassinate.

I play first-life characters with very specific rules about the equipment and consumibles they are allowed to use. I'm completely in agreement that making the game work when the developers don't is essential to having fun in DDO, and I play rogues and other melee extensively. That doesn't mean that we can't be concerned with class balance and especially concerned with all the situations that currently exist in the game where three quarters of the group are made pikers while two characters run through the quest using an overpowered game mechanic.

Rogues are entirely versatile and have the skill points, class attributes, and damage potential to rival pretty much any non-caster in the game. The problem is -almost entirely- that the bard/rogue or wizard/rogue has pretty much the same benefits, fewer downsides, and a whole smorgasbord of other abilities to stack on top. The game itself is screaming for nerfs...

[Raithe]

While you were performing your "logical, controlled-via-experiment deduction that having a bard in the party made everything go faster, smoother, and much, much more efficiently" this year, many in the bard community deductively reasoned this back in 2005/06.

Really? You knew (like myself), from 2006 or earlier that bards pretty much made the game a snap of the fingers, yet you still lobbied endlessly for bard improvements? That makes you either a sadistic and greedy power-monger willing to forfeit Turbine employee's careers for your glorification, or (far more likely) you are telling us a cute little lie. As cute as dog vomit on a freshly installed carpet. Especially considering when bards were FIRST released they couldn't move while fascinating, couldn't change their spells, DIDN'T have Spellsong Vigor or any sort of overpowered prestige enhancements, and yet still made groups way too powerful. They went through a TON of upgrades and you still were harping on their inadequacy?

You are as transparent as people can get hiding behind an internet browser.

The same thing happened with ranged combatants. A bunch of god-awful players got themselves all riled-up about how poorly their ranged characters performed in groups, so made it their mission to see ranged characters dominate in DDO content. They succeeded... only it wasn't the god-awful players that were showing everyone up. It was the highly-skilled, lightning-reflexes, been-playing-first-person-shooters-my-entire-freaking-life players that showed everyone how ridiculous ranged combat had become.

All it did for the metagamers was demonstrate that it wasn't their class or combat style choices that made them bad at the game... and that's why most of them aren't here anymore.

And I'm watching the clock for you, too...

[Ashlayna]

Rogues are entirely versatile and have the skill points, class attributes, and damage potential to rival pretty much any non-caster in the game. The problem is -almost entirely- that the bard/rogue or wizard/rogue has pretty much the same benefits, fewer downsides, and a whole smorgasbord of other abilities to stack on top. The game itself is screaming for nerfs...

The same applies to many splash builds, however, and none of them, especially splashes that feature rogue, make rogues useless. I have already mentioned that my trapping DC was higher than some of the FotM builds my guildies are using, to the point that they were glad to have an actual rogue in the party, in, sad to say, E Two Toed Tobias, a quest made up entirely of undead... Having the DC, and the Tumble to get through a trap to the box, if needed, can save a wipe. In and of itself that makes rogues far from "useless". You see, I'm not disagreeing with the OP that something in the agro system is borked, I'm disagreeing with all the "the class is useless now, since I can't assassinate every mob in the game w/out being detected" BS that he's brought to the table, despite the fact that, in some of the quests that his buddy is bringing up, you couldn't anyway. Guess what though, a Bard won't be able to CC all of 'em to get CDG off either. This position that they are "unplayable in the current environment" that he likes to harp on? It's BS, and even proficient rogues know it, they don't even have to be the best on their servers, just proficient, to know that it's all a lie to garner attention to his debacle. I mean, if you have any doubts, check his last demand to see an assassin shine, in Lost in the Swamp, where there are approximately 8 mobs that might be able to be assassinated, even before the last update.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Really? You knew from 2006 or earlier that bards pretty much made the game a snap of the fingers, yet you still lobbied endlessly for bard improvements?

Of course, because only a minute number took the time to truly understand the greatness of the bard class. I was fortunate enough to help hundreds build and play their bards. My enjoyment came from watching others find happiness playing their bards in DDO. The truth is Im very happy to see many others give bard a crack, and even though we never got the bulk of the spells I lobbied for, I'm happy to see bards in the sunlight. Grant it, I will miss the exclusivity of the class. But in today's DDO, that's probably a very good thing. Bottom line bards needed more spells, and more general effectiveness so that many more could enjoy the class.


The same thing happened with ranged combatants. A bunch of god-awful players got themselves all riled-up about how poorly their ranged characters performed in groups, so made it their mission to see ranged characters dominate in DDO content. They succeeded... only it wasn't the god-awful players that were showing everyone up.

I love the elitist's narrow mindset. Everyone's a bad player except themselves. I've played with every possible level of player skill in this game, and I still choose to. I see as many if not more mistakes from the experienced. Not to mention laziness and sameness. For me personally, this game is about TEAMWORK. I don't waste a New York minute worrying about the Joneses. There are GREAT players at every skill level. There's more to this game than stats and gear. Stats and gear will come. Understanding what your character can do and matching it to your playstyle is the key component. Finding people you enjoy playing with ... that's the stuff of legend. Not the leadership board or kill count.


And I'm watching the clock for you, too...

Keep watching that clock. I'm not going anywhere. I'll be here until they close the servers down. I found my happiness in this game, long ago. Shame some just complain but that's the nature of the beast :)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Rogues are entirely versatile and have the skill points, class attributes, and damage potential to rival pretty much any non-caster in the game. The problem is -almost entirely- that the bard/rogue or wizard/rogue has pretty much the same benefits, fewer downsides, and a whole smorgasbord of other abilities to stack on top. The game itself is screaming for nerfs...

The continental divide is not between the classes themselves but in the way epic destinies and enhancements now work. Trying to balance heroic levels vs epic levels and TRs vs single life is a monumental difficulty. All in all I think they've done a great job. Show me another MMO in this genre that keeps the depth of DDO with more balance... in a game that isnt Facebook/Zinga easy????

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I play first-life characters with very specific rules about the equipment and consumibles they are allowed to use. I'm completely in agreement that making the game work when the developers don't is essential to having fun in DDO

I'll give you props for this. I have a few TRs but I mainly play first lifers. I always considered the entire TR train a desperation move by Turbine at a time when they needed to give reasons for players to keep playing. It no doubt worked however, and they made it fun for a good majority of folks. I just prefer to build something once and make it the best it could be.

[Raithe]

Of course, because only a minute number took the time to truly understand the greatness of the bard class.

You realize that this thread is being read by a bunch of rogue and assassin fans all metaphorically glaring at your insane rationalization of giving bards a superior assassinate ability, and wondering what whack-job would think that it was acceptable, let alone gloat about it in an assassin-created thread?

As for only "a minute number" of people who took the time to understand the bard class, it's funny that I ran into no such discrimination. Part of the reason I played my bard more often (and became increasingly aware of the perks) is that I used him to get into raids, where he was snapped-up immediately (especially for Shroud or HoX runs). My bard has far more raid completions, a far higher raid success rate, way more raid gear, and the most favor and tome acquisitions of ANY of my characters, most of which are exactly the same age: older than eight-years-old. They range from rogue to ranger to fighter to cleric to wizard to sorceror.

You can keep carrying on about how it was your love of the bard class that made you continually berate them in forum post after forum post (which is the method by which they were improved - NOT by glowing endorsements). Your arguments are futile and transparent, and most everyone here knows your claims are completely false - mostly because they had the exact same erroneous thoughts running through their minds, as well (and may still have).

You are correct that I don't particularly enjoy playing a base bard, which is why my Swashbuckler is really a fighter, my Spellsinger is really a caster-styled rogue, my Warchanter is really an archer, and my fourth bard is really a Sorceror. It's just a shame that making all those different character styles stand well with the mechanics of the game meant turning them into bards, at least partially. I'd prefer that the game was far more balanced for non-casting classes and that healing wasn't such an integral part of combat. But thanks to inspired geniuses like yourself, I doubt we'll be seeing even the smallest hints of balance before they close the servers down.

I also doubt, completely, that you'll be around to say goodbye.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You realize that this thread is being read by a bunch of rogue and assassin fans all metaphorically glaring at your insane rationalization of giving bards a superior assassinate ability, and wondering what whack-job would think that it was acceptable, let along gloat about it in an assassin-created thread?

Rogues are awesome. I've played several different varieties since the beginning. Bards and rogues have some similarities, they are supposed to. They have far more differences. Personally, I don't sweat the similarities, or the differences.


As for only "a minute number" of people who took the time to understand the bard class, it's funny that I ran into no such discrimination.

You never heard of bards being discriminated against solely for their choice of class? Sure some GOOD bards have had little trouble getting into groups. But too many good bards HAVE NOT been picked at one time or another simply because they were a bard. I can't remember speaking to very many bards who hasn't see the discrimination exist amongst party leaders who had pre-conceived notions about bards... There's no debating this. There was a long-standing discrimination that affected too many bards that needed to get addressed by the devs.


I'd prefer that the game was far more balanced for non-casting classes and that healing wasn't such an integral part of combat. But thanks to inspired geniuses like yourself, I doubt we'll be seeing even the smallest hints of balance before they close the servers down.

Balance balance..... There are a select few who will NEVER be happy. They play the flavor of the month (BARD EVERYTHING, WOP EVERYTHING, MONK EVERYTHING), then wonder why they are never happy. I very rarely ever rerolled, and have NEVER rerolled a main, unless it was forced by Turbine upgrade. Why? Because I do an insane amount of planning from the get-go what I want my toons to do... it's as simple as that. (I mean I envision every possible situation, and every possible reaction.) I'm playing my rogues and bards exactly the way I did back in the day, except now they can do more then ever before. That's why I think these threads are silly.


I also doubt, completely, that you'll be around to say goodbye.

That's news to me :) You clearly do not know me very well.

[Gremmlynn]

I never said it happened, it's just an example of a teoretically possible disaster. I have seen a full group of monks, this was common at some time. The reason you will probably never see more than 2-3 rogues in a group is because the class is not popular, and i'm here trying to explain why.Either we have very different ideas of what a disaster is, or you play perma-death. Personally, I see what you call a disaster as something that would be fun to try. Worst case we all end up in a tavern and repairs are cheap relative to the loot we get.

[Gremmlynn]

You realize that this thread is being read by a bunch of rogue and assassin fans all metaphorically glaring at your insane rationalization of giving bards a superior assassinate ability, and wondering what whack-job would think that it was acceptable, let alone gloat about it in an assassin-created thread?

As for only "a minute number" of people who took the time to understand the bard class, it's funny that I ran into no such discrimination. Part of the reason I played my bard more often (and became increasingly aware of the perks) is that I used him to get into raids, where he was snapped-up immediately (especially for Shroud or HoX runs). My bard has far more raid completions, a far higher raid success rate, way more raid gear, and the most favor and tome acquisitions of ANY of my characters, most of which are exactly the same age: older than eight-years-old. They range from rogue to ranger to fighter to cleric to wizard to sorceror.

You can keep carrying on about how it was your love of the bard class that made you continually berate them in forum post after forum post (which is the method by which they were improved - NOT by glowing endorsements). Your arguments are futile and transparent, and most everyone here knows your claims are completely false - mostly because they had the exact same erroneous thoughts running through their minds, as well (and may still have).

You are correct that I don't particularly enjoy playing a base bard, which is why my Swashbuckler is really a fighter, my Spellsinger is really a caster-styled rogue, my Warchanter is really an archer, and my fourth bard is really a Sorceror. It's just a shame that making all those different character styles stand well with the mechanics of the game meant turning them into bards, at least partially. I'd prefer that the game was far more balanced for non-casting classes and that healing wasn't such an integral part of combat. But thanks to inspired geniuses like yourself, I doubt we'll be seeing even the smallest hints of balance before they close the servers down.

I also doubt, completely, that you'll be around to say goodbye.Yep 1 in 12 in a raid to act as buff/CC bots and no more as a second bard would add little that the first one didn't. That was the problem, bards were glorified hirelings. Now they can actually do something useful between shrines other than fascinate and toss disco balls on request.

Personally I have little problem with swash. CDG is a little over the top IMO, but I'm not much of an instant kill fan to begin with. SWF, though, seems to be a bit much as well as being a bit illogical. But so does a monks unarmed ability. That's just the "Hollywood" factor though.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Page 14 of this thread so I guess the question is "who won and what are we debating?"

[Ashlayna]

Page 14 of this thread so I guess the question is "who won and what are we debating?"

I won, and it's official: The cake is a lie.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

How many bards were "optimal" back in the day? Really?

One bard, two bards... twelve bards? Really didnt matter to me. I've completed with just about every party configuration. One good bard could solo heal the entire Shroud raid at any difficulty. I've done it many times... so have many bards. You weren't twiddling your thumbs or piking you had to pay unwavering attention and be a highly efficient multi-tasker. For me it was a rush. Nowadays we have plenty of healers in guild so there's no need to solo heal, which Turbine devs totally get kudos for (cleric dev attention was overdue and the auras they were given put them over the top and played again).

I still love it when I'm the only "healer" though. ESPECIALLY now-adays because I can be even more effective (more effective melee or offensive casting) when I'm not in the trenches healing or CCing. Bards can be played so diversely, they are simply... different... and should be able to fill any spot, and unless we were down to a select few spots and had a specific role to fill (even then, as party lead Im trying to fill those spots first), I'd take any class, even multiple bards.

In PUGs, what you believe is most optimal didn't always turn out that way, as player skill and party cohesion I found a much larger discrepancy in than any particular party configuration when party leading a Shroud (or most other challenging content of the day). There WERE parties where I knew the pugs that I would only reserve one spot for a bard so I could beef up the dps. But every party was different -- I didn't have one set rule.

I wouldn't debate though if someone felt only one bard was "optimal". Sometimes it was. But many times it wasnt. I play for fun. Teamwork/party cohesion can't be under-sold, even in today's DDO.

[Kalimah]

Optimal tends to be the first 12 to join.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Ok, it might be a telling commentary on my family life, but this made me think of Ratatouille (darn kids). Saying that "anyone can cook" is not the same as saying that "everyone can cook." The concept applies to game design as much as cooking, even if it was offered in a kids movie by an imaginary person talking to a rat.

Hahaha. Of course. Without question those of us that are experienced in our classes can give the most detailed responses but it does not guarantee a solution that works for the majority, since we all have difference of opinions.

Turbine cannot possibly listen to everyone, so they need to find efficient ways to filter opinions from the majority, all while listening to the expertise of those who have more experience than most. This is where the Player Council can be most effective as a buffer and filter for the DDO community at large. I know from real life experience as well as in game, that some great ideas can come from anyone. Whether we give them credit for those ideas is another book entirely.

[Chai]

Maby you quoted the wrong part of my post... I asked you to point out to the EVIDENCE you were talking about.


Its right here in this thread - a youtube video of someone playing an assassin doing things the OP claimed could not be done, supporting my claims of trap use in EE. And as already stated, if you are supporting the claim made by the OP, its on him, and anyone else in his camp to provide the evidence.



Nah i like that aspect of the game, one of the reasons i'm against CDG.


The continual claim of CDG being OP is false according to your own logic. The same situation you outlined rogues are not optimal in, bards with CDG aren't optimal in either. This is what happens when people make claims based on 1% of the game and ignore the other 99% of the game where their claims aren't valid. They begin contradicting their previous claims when they complain about other classes, when the other classes they complain about are not the best choice under the same severely restricted and hilariously rare circumstances.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The continual claim of CDG being OP is false according to your own logic. The same situation you outlined rogues are not optimal in, bards with CDG aren't optimal in either. This is what happens when people make claims based on 1% of the game and ignore the other 99% of the game where their claims aren't valid. They begin contradicting their previous claims when they complain about other classes, when the other classes they complain about are not the best choice under the same severely restricted and hilariously rare circumstances.

Yeah, a very small handful of rogues are having trouble swallowing the fact that bards can offer some similar (but truly different if you understand the differences) combat options. In D&D 2nd edition, when bards truly made their introduction as a playable class (actually 1st edition, but it was extremely rare to see) bards were considered rogue family, so similar they would not be allowed to multiclass with thief class.

[nokowi]

Bards gaining power is not a proxy nerf to every other class. Nothing changed for any of the other classes because bards became more powerful. A proxy nerf would be if they raised the saves to compete with the high DC of CDG. THAT would be a proxy nerf for everyone else. This has not happened however.

This is what happens when accelerated power creep occurs. We see the difference in power between PRE created years ago versus PRE created recently. There are many people carrying on about nerfs on these forums, and theres a significant overlap in their ranks with those who supported multiple ways to accelerate power creep over the years. They are now seeing the result of accelerating the symptoms of mechanics and system monetization which they supported hand over fist for the past few years.

P.S. Wizards aren't really on that list. They can have a massive DC without being pure. Bards only get evasion when pure AND using swash capstone, and have to wait til 20 - which is far from the strongest way to build a swash. If they are pure spellsinger they aren't getting evasion as the spellsinger cap doesn't offer evasion, and cant take 2 capstones. Still far more powerful as a splash or multiclassed if going the melee route.

If there is one legit complaint as a rogue, its the last 3 iterations of "endgame" being laden with undead. On mobs that qualify for assassinate, they have no issue with the vast majority of them.

Why do you have this notion that a bard has to take 20 levels to take evasion? Most every bard has evasion. This can be obtained through pure bard, or through 2 levels of monk or rogue. There is not some major "sacrifice" bard players are making to get evasion (say like spending all of their build points, enhancement points, and epic destiny points to get a decent DC).

[nokowi]

Page 14 of this thread so I guess the question is "who won and what are we debating?"

I wish we were getting a consensus on how to get assassin fixed. By fixed, I mean removing bugs, not some power creep based on the new bard. Assassin DC's will need to increase if the DC's on new content increase, but this is a discussion best left for another thread.

Here are two solo EE I did recently with a pure assassin. The first video will do a good job of demonstrating bugs introduced in U22.

http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc (no assassinate roll, incorrect assassinate roll, the effect of agro changes, etc)
http://youtu.be/xO59BG1bv1E (shadow manipulation and trap use)

Hopefully these videos will also dispel some ignorance about what an assassin can and cant do, and the idea that you must be a bad player if you ask for a bug fix. Insulting other people should be your last option on the forums, not your go-to option when you disagree with someone.

[nokowi]

Yeah, a very small handful of rogues are having trouble swallowing the fact that bards can offer some similar (but truly different if you understand the differences) combat options. In D&D 2nd edition, when bards truly made their introduction as a playable class (actually 1st edition, but it was extremely rare to see) bards were considered rogue family, so similar they would not be allowed to multiclass with thief class.

CDG is not OP, however it is a super-easy button. The fact that a successful DC requires no effort does not make assassins happy when they sacrifice their entire build for a bugged assassinate system that worked perfectly prior to U22. CDG was not implemented in an intelligent manner.

Insta-kill abilities need to be closely balanced throughout all classes that can do them for this game to work. CDG threw any balance in the garbage.

My CDG DC would be 79 on my int based assassin build (no effort - minimum starting Cha, etc.) My assassinate DC is 74, with every possible gear, ability point, enhancement point, and destiny point spent to increase this DC.

Really poor game design...

CDG should have been introduced based on an ability score (like everyone else), and buffed through ITEMS in future expansions and through making build choices to increase this DC. Making build choices is GOOD for the game.


DDO is not based on second edition. In DDO, A Bard can take 2 rogue levels and get evasion. As such, this (2nd edition comparison) is weak argument that bards should have a higher insta kill DC than assassins. I'm not even against bards being able to get a final DC higher than an assassin (due to implementation differences in the abilities), but it should at least require build choices to make this work in EE content. Gear should also make a difference (autosuccess on EE content without EE gear is poor implementation).

[Gremmlynn]

Why do you have this notion that a bard has to take 20 levels to take evasion? Most every bard has evasion. This can be obtained through pure bard, or through 2 levels of monk or rogue. There is not some major "sacrifice" bard players are making to get evasion (say like spending all of their build points, enhancement points, and epic destiny points to get a decent DC).A bard with two levels of monk would be something worth seeing.

[Gremmlynn]

CDG is not OP, however it is a super-easy button. The fact that a successful DC requires no effort does not make assassins happy when they sacrifice their entire build for a bugged assassinate system that worked perfectly prior to U22. CDG was not implemented in an intelligent manner.

Insta-kill abilities need to be closely balanced throughout all classes that can do them for this game to work. CDG threw any balance in the garbage.

My CDG DC would be 79 on my int based assassin build (no effort - minimum starting Cha, etc.) My assassinate DC is 74, with every possible gear, ability point, enhancement point, and destiny point spent to increase this DC.

Really poor game design...

CDG should have been introduced based on an ability score (like everyone else), and buffed through ITEMS in future expansions and through making build choices to increase this DC. Making build choices is GOOD for the game.


DDO is not based on second edition. In DDO, A Bard can take 2 rogue levels and get evasion. As such, this (2nd edition comparison) is weak argument that bards should have a higher insta kill DC than assassins. I'm not even against bards being able to get a final DC higher than an assassin (due to implementation differences in the abilities), but it should at least require build choices to make this work in EE content. Gear should also make a difference (autosuccess on EE content without EE gear is poor implementation).It sounds to me like it is the assassin that is what's broken if they have to be such one trick ponies to succeed. Especially if it's one trick that only works on trash.

[Chai]

Why do you have this notion that a bard has to take 20 levels to take evasion? Most every bard has evasion. This can be obtained through pure bard, or through 2 levels of monk or rogue. There is not some major "sacrifice" bard players are making to get evasion (say like spending all of their build points, enhancement points, and epic destiny points to get a decent DC).

Because we are talking about the bard class specifically, not all of its multiclassing options.

People claiming bards are OP are just as wrong as those claiming fighters are OP right after the enhancement pass. The 20 pure bard is not OP at all. It actually fits well into the current power ladder, but its not at the top by any means.

Funny that you question me on this, because in order to get evasion on a non pure bard, you take 2 levels of rogue, the class youre attempting to claim is worthless here.

[nokowi]

Because we are talking about the bard class specifically, not all of its multiclassing options.

People claiming bards are OP are just as wrong as those claiming fighters are OP right after the enhancement pass. The 20 pure bard is not OP at all. It actually fits well into the current power ladder, but its not at the top by any means.

Funny that you question me on this, because in order to get evasion on a non pure bard, you take 2 levels of rogue, the class youre attempting to claim is worthless here.

The thread is about assassin being gimped (assassinate), not rogue. 2 levels of rogue does not make an assassin. Non-assassinate builds are much less affected by the U22 bugs.

[nokowi]

It sounds to me like it is the assassin that is what's broken if they have to be such one trick ponies to succeed. Especially if it's one trick that only works on trash.

I could call any player who uses CDG, or uses master blitz, or any other DDO ability a "one-trick-pony". An assassin actually has to know when to use stealth and when not to use stealth. An assassin chooses between the following 5 options:

Assassin is broken (specifically assassinate). It is one of five tools available to the build.
1. Assassinate
2. Bluff
3. Traps
4. Shadow Manipulation
5. DPS/Survivability

Calling an assassin a 5 trick pony would be more appropriate. An assassin loses DPS and survivability to use sneak/assassinate to its full potential.

The reason that it is important to fix 1. above is that the assassin build sacrifices so much for Assassinate to have a useful DC. Here is what I sacrificed to play this build:
1. 16 of 28 build points for Int
2. 5 of 28 build points to get enough dex for TWF (leaving 7 pts for Con, Str, Wis, Cha on a -2 Con build)
3. 7 of 7 stat points for Int
4. 3 epic feats for +3 Int
5. Every Enhancement point is spent to get maximum intelligence, with the exception of the Acrobat tree for Haste Boost.
6. 10 Destiny Points are spent to get 5 extra Intelligence
7. 3 Destiny points for +6 assassinate DC
8. Equipment for assassinate DC, + Intelligence, + Exceptional Intelligence

[Arkantios]

Trying to get some recognition for the rogue guys, post in

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447351-Shout-Out-To-All-The-Rogues?p=5410568&posted=1#post5410568

if you can. I want to get a report up and send it through the PC.

[nokowi]

Because we are talking about the bard class specifically, not all of its multiclassing options.

People claiming bards are OP are just as wrong as those claiming fighters are OP right after the enhancement pass. The 20 pure bard is not OP at all. It actually fits well into the current power ladder, but its not at the top by any means.

Funny that you question me on this, because in order to get evasion on a non pure bard, you take 2 levels of rogue, the class youre attempting to claim is worthless here.

Looking at a class without multiclassing options in DDO?? I am speechless...

[nokowi]

Trying to get some recognition for the rogue guys, post in

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447351-Shout-Out-To-All-The-Rogues?p=5410568&posted=1#post5410568

if you can. I want to get a report up and send it through the PC.

Done.

Please don't turn rogue into bard (no weaknesses). As annoyed as I am at the implementation of bard, making rogue an easy button would make me leave DDO forever. Rogues need to have unique strengths and unique weaknesses.

[Gremmlynn]

I could call any player who uses CDG, or uses master blitz, or any other DDO ability a "one-trick-pony". An assassin actually has to know when to use stealth and when not to use stealth. An assassin chooses between the following 5 options:

Assassin is broken (specifically assassinate). It is one of five tools available to the build.
1. Assassinate
2. Bluff
3. Traps
4. Shadow Manipulation
5. DPS/Survivability

Calling an assassin a 5 trick pony would be more appropriate. An assassin loses DPS and survivability to use sneak/assassinate to its full potential.

The reason that it is important to fix 1. above is that the assassin build sacrifices so much for Assassinate to have a useful DC. Here is what I sacrificed to play this build:
1. 16 of 28 build points for Int
2. 5 of 28 build points to get enough dex for TWF (leaving 7 pts for Con, Str, Wis, Cha on a -2 Con build)
3. 7 of 7 stat points for Int
4. 3 epic feats for +3 Int
5. Every Enhancement point is spent to get maximum intelligence, with the exception of the Acrobat tree for Haste Boost.
6. 10 Destiny Points are spent to get 5 extra Intelligence
7. 3 Destiny points for +6 assassinate DC
8. Equipment for assassinate DC, + Intelligence, + Exceptional IntelligenceYou could call them that, but would be incorrect. The reason why is that they don't sacrifice their whole build to do that one thing. The fact that, as you claim, an assassin does is what is wrong with it.

[nokowi]

You could call them that, but would be incorrect. The reason why is that they don't sacrifice their whole build to do that one thing. The fact that, as you claim, an assassin does is what is wrong with it.

DDO is about having a choice of play styles. If one of those play styles is unplayable due to bugs, it is a GAME problem not a player problem.

I just said an assassin did 5 things... If you don't sacrifice much of your build for assassinate DC, you wont be able to use it when you advance to EE content.

If your argument is that assassins shouldn't be able to assassinate, please make that statement directly.

Someone who uses assassinate effectively also uses many or all of the other 4 abilities.

[Chai]

Looking at a class without multiclassing options in DDO?? I am speechless...

So youre claiming bard is OP due to evasion, while bard would need to take 20 levels to get it, while youre also claiming rogues, a class that gets evasion at level 2, is worthless.

If youre calling rogues worthless, youre proving yourself wrong by showing us how these other classes become more awesome after adding 2 levels of this worthless rogue class.

[Chai]

The thread is about assassin being gimped (assassinate), not rogue. 2 levels of rogue does not make an assassin. Non-assassinate builds are much less affected by the U22 bugs.

Assassin is the PRE. You claimed worthless class. Rogue is the class.

[nokowi]

Assassin is the PRE. You claimed worthless class. Rogue is the class.

I play DnD where prestige lines are called Prestige classes. You claim to know much about D&D yourself. You know I call prestige lines prestige classes having read the thread and my Bard/swashbuckler threads. You know my OP and the thread is about assassin being gimped not rogue.

The OP says add ASSASSIN to worthless classes, not rogue.

I hope this is clear enough for you now.

[nokowi]

So youre claiming bard is OP due to evasion, while bard would need to take 20 levels to get it, while youre also claiming rogues, a class that gets evasion at level 2, is worthless.

If youre calling rogues worthless, youre proving yourself wrong by showing us how these other classes become more awesome after adding 2 levels of this worthless rogue class.

Bard is EASY BUTTON, not necessarily OP. It is poorly implemented in respect to future game progression and power creep. It is bad game design, even if it is fun to play right now.

As to your second statement, once again I cannot grasp your (lack of) logic.

Any chance you could make statements related to the thread instead of about other people?

[Gremmlynn]

DDO is about having a choice of play styles. If one of those play styles is unplayable due to bugs, it is a GAME problem not a player problem.

I just said an assassin did 5 things... If you don't sacrifice much of your build for assassinate DC, you wont be able to use it when you advance to EE content.

If your argument is that assassins shouldn't be able to assassinate, please make that statement directly.

Someone who uses assassinate effectively also uses many or all of the other 4 abilities.Assassins should be able to do much more is my point. Assassinate should be a situational thing at most and shouldn't need that level of build investment to accomplish.

[nokowi]

Assassins should be able to do much more is my point. Assassinate should be a situational thing at most and shouldn't need that level of build investment to accomplish.

If I am understanding you correctly, you want a buff to assassin. You can certainly suggest that assassinate have effective EE DC's without build effort or gear. My opinion (and it is just my opinion, not a statement of what you should believe) is that being able to auto succeed in EE's without a build or gear to handle EE's is a bad thing for DDO. This is a gear based game, and getting that new gear should have an effect on your ability to succeed. Making build choices allows you character to be different than my character. It allows players to explore many different builds and play/enjoy the game for a much longer period of time.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

CDG is not OP, however it is a super-easy button. The fact that a successful DC requires no effort.

In DDO, A Bard can take 2 monk or rogue levels and get evasion.


CDG is technically not an instakill, considering it is not ever instant... its a two step processes, in addition to being at the right place at the right time. In PnP, once a monster is helpless, it can be slain easily via CDG.

Bards need to CC (fascinate takes a looooong time, as does dancing ball. Sap is great, but it costs a feat to do it) then successfully attack (<- glancing blows doesn't work). Casters/Healers can hit FOD or Implosion, if they miss the DC they still do massive damage. If mobs are not prone to the CC, CDG is completely ineffective.

Because of these limitations and comparisons, I feel looking at the DC requirement of CDG like you are doing is horribly misleading to the point of being inaccurate. Heck, its not even an instakill... as it needs to be set up first.

As for going bard/monk... I think you have a great misunderstanding in build design and game mechanics that you are not admitting.

If you want a better assassinate instakill - ask the devs in the rogue section... but please leave CDG out of it. Your "worthless classes" thread title is equally ridiculous.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

5410740 auto succeed in EE's .
CDG is not an auto-succeed, its a multi step kill combination on a timer. If you do the right things, it will hit often. If you connect.

[FranOhmsford]

This is a gear based game, and getting that new gear should have an effect on your ability to succeed. Making build choices allows you character to be different than my character. It allows players to explore many different builds and play/enjoy the game for a much longer period of time.

On the other hand - Giving us actual you know....CHOICES! Might be a good idea!


What if we didn't need to get EVERY last SP, Spellpower, Lore, DC, Spell Pen item on our Casters but could pick and choose!

Wouldn't there be MORE different characters rather than Less?

What if Fighters could choose between Deadly and Seeker rather than HAVING to have both?

Wouldn't there be less of the EXACT SAME BUILD out there?


Paladins Holy Sword has supposedly been dialled back {and made useless again!} thanks to people complaining about OPness BUT wouldn't it have been nice if we could have a CHOICE over whether to take a spell or use Gear rather than being given a spell that is a complete waste of a slot!
{I apologise if I got the wrong end of the stick with this last example BUT I missed a lot of the argument.}.

[Gremmlynn]

If I am understanding you correctly, you want a buff to assassin. You can certainly suggest that assassinate have effective EE DC's without build effort or gear. My opinion (and it is just my opinion, not a statement of what you should believe) is that being able to auto succeed in EE's without a build or gear to handle EE's is a bad thing for DDO. This is a gear based game, and getting that new gear should have an effect on your ability to succeed. Making build choices allows you character to be different than my character. It allows players to explore many different builds and play/enjoy the game for a much longer period of time.How does making everyone with a particular play style having to get the same top gear and devote their entire build to the same things to be viable make characters different?

Personally I think this game relies to much on gear as well as offers to many boosts from it. A character should work without any, or just basic, gear with "magic" gear just boosting the particular areas that player wants to do better at. Smaller effects with more stacking would likely work well for this.

[FranOhmsford]

How does making everyone with a particular play style having to get the same top gear and devote their entire build to the same things to be viable make characters different?

Personally I think this game relies to much on gear as well as offers to many boosts from it. A character should work without any, or just basic, gear with "magic" gear just boosting the particular areas that player wants to do better at. Smaller effects with more stacking would likely work well for this.

Turbine messed up when they didn't place maximum benefits in the game.

They did for Jump!

But for everything else - Nope!

What if DD, Concentration and Intim were Maxed at 40?

We could then CHOOSE which option of Feats, Enhancements, Gear etc. we wanted to use on our Build!

We could play around with MORE skills - Getting small numbers in many rather than having to Max out one or two!

We could fit that Balance +15 item into our gear set up!



EDIT: Maybe 40's too low for todays game - But the Devs could put a Maximum in for Skills other than Jump of 60 or 80!

[nokowi]

CDG is technically not an instakill, considering it is not ever instant... its a two step processes, in addition to being at the right place at the right time. In PnP, once a monster is helpless, it can be slain easily via CDG.

Bards need to CC (fascinate takes a looooong time, as does dancing ball. Sap is great, but it costs a feat to do it) then successfully attack (<- glancing blows doesn't work). Casters/Healers can hit FOD or Implosion, if they miss the DC they still do massive damage. If mobs are not prone to the CC, CDG is completely ineffective.

Because of these limitations and comparisons, I feel looking at the DC requirement of CDG like you are doing is horribly misleading to the point of being inaccurate. Heck, its not even an instakill... as it needs to be set up first.

As for going bard/monk... I think you have a great misunderstanding in build design and game mechanics that you are not admitting.

If you want a better assassinate instakill - ask the devs in the rogue section... but please leave CDG out of it. Your "worthless classes" thread title is equally ridiculous.

Assassins need to hit 2 buttons as well. Sneak then Assassinate. This is how assassinate is implemented for blinded mobs. Blinded mobs swing wildly and if you get hit by them, you are removed from sneak and will likely waste your assassinate attempt. Go try both and see which is more difficult. While it is convenient for your positions to assume I don't know what I am talking about, I do. Try doing this with a bugged agro and a bugged assassinate roll. You might feel differently about the 'ridiculous" OP.

Comparing abilities across classes is completely appropriate. If you can't handle a discussion of CDG vs assassinate, stay off the forums.

[nokowi]

How does making everyone with a particular play style having to get the same top gear and devote their entire build to the same things to be viable make characters different?

Personally I think this game relies to much on gear as well as offers to many boosts from it. A character should work without any, or just basic, gear with "magic" gear just boosting the particular areas that player wants to do better at. Smaller effects with more stacking would likely work well for this.

Right now you have to choose between an int, dex, and str build. Int build is used for assassinate DC, or possibly ranged damage.

If Assassinate DC's were easy to obtain, Int builds would disappear and people would play Str builds with adrenaline or masters blitz. Why? Because you could still assassinate effectively, and get all the benefits of Str build and str/crit based destinies.

This is a simple concept, but one which is not grasped by many on the forums.

[FranOhmsford]

Right now you have to choose between an int, dex, and str build. Int build is used for assassinate DC, or possibly ranged damage.

If Assassinate DC's were easy to obtain, Int builds would disappear and people would play Str builds with adrenaline or masters blitz. Why? Because you could still assassinate effectively, and get all the benefits of Str build and str/crit based destinies.

This is a simple concept, but one which is not grasped by many on the forums.

That's a Problem with Strength though!

The ridiculous number of benefits Str has over every other stat is something the Devs really should fix!

[nokowi]

CDG is not an auto-succeed, its a multi step kill combination on a timer. If you do the right things, it will hit often. If you connect.

Yes I recognize that you hit 2 buttons.

Could someone explain exactly how difficult this is? What would my success/failure rate be on a DC 80 toon?

The people I run with are having auto success, using old gear from their previous (non bard, non Cha) lives, without any build effort related to CDG.

Are there really players unable to do this effectively? Please speak up if you are one of them.

[Ashlayna]

. If you can't handle a discussion of CDG vs assassinate, stay off the forums.

See this right here? This is exactly what you're crying for everyone else to stop doing, and yet, here you are again, attacking posters because you can't seem to refute what they have to say.

It has been demonstrated in this thread, on more than one occasion, that people can indeed play assassin in the current environment. If, as you claim, the Pre is worthless, and unplayable, this would not be the case. The bug, if indeed it is one, needs to be addressed. The hyperbole that you approach this with also needs to be addressed. Nothing about Bard has anything to do with what you claim this topic is supposed to be about. You ask for people to focus on that, and then go right back to the ***** envy of bards having CDG. Again, make up your mind what we're discussing here, because all this waffling just comes across as you don't really know. Which is really sad, since you opened the discussion.

[nokowi]

That's a Problem with Strength though!

The ridiculous number of benefits Str has over every other stat is something the Devs really should fix!

I out DPS all rogue Str builds using assassinate and Int build by a LARGE margin for all but bosses.

Int build is a very viable option, but it takes work (gear/build). New U22 bugs are an issue with Int builds, however.

[nokowi]

I can answer this question with a simple request: Go to the Gen Discussion main page, and mouse over the topic title. The first words you see are the problem I have with this whole thread. OP makes a lot of claims that are unsubstantiated, or outright false. OP continues on to call other players unskilled, at best, even when they provide proof that the class still plays fine. I get he's your buddy and all, and ya' have to stick up for your buddies, but at least take him in the back room and straighten him out to the facts.

As a side note, just finished EH 3bc chain and Sentinels for the saga. Every time I tried to assassinate an eligible mob, it worked, and in no case did I draw agro from everything else in the dungeon, or the immediate area. So again, I am unable to reproduce this bug. The closest I got, again, were mobs in the general vicinity that saw their buddy die, and went wildly swinging to find me. Assassination never misfired, unless the mob moved out of range, such as when I tried to get one that was moving past me towards the group. Missed him by |--| much.

Please watch my posted video: (many bugs)

http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc

The issue here is that we have people not playing EE content who see no problem, and telling those of us that do run EE content that we don't know what we are talking about. This is not an insult to players running EN or EH, but an attempt to identify where/when/what the issue is since U22.

[nokowi]

See this right here? This is exactly what you're crying for everyone else to stop doing, and yet, here you are again, attacking posters because you can't seem to refute what they have to say.

It has been demonstrated in this thread, on more than one occasion, that people can indeed play assassin in the current environment. If, as you claim, the Pre is worthless, and unplayable, this would not be the case. The bug, if indeed it is one, needs to be addressed. The hyperbole that you approach this with also needs to be addressed. Nothing about Bard has anything to do with what you claim this topic is supposed to be about. You ask for people to focus on that, and then go right back to the ***** envy of bards having CDG. Again, make up your mind what we're discussing here, because all this waffling just comes across as you don't really know. Which is really sad, since you opened the discussion.

Yes, you can complete an EE solo quest with bugged agro and bugged assassinate button. I am the only one in this thread to show this! Does that mean everything is OK? How would you feel if your quickened maximized heal only worked 80% of the time you hit the button? You would be very upset if you ran EE content and died 30 mins into a 35 minute quest. you would be upset when other players called you a "bad player". That you need to adapt, etc. You probably would quit playing that toon until the bugs are fixed. You might even go to the forums and try an gain support for that bug fix.

Yes, MANY EE players have retired their assassins. Read the thread and count them. Most of those that remain run EH content.

The bard CDG discussion entered this thread when Chai made the statement that I want an easy button (assassin) while supporting current implementation of Bard. Blame Chai for the CDG discussion. I am happy to discuss CDG vs assassinate, DC's timers, 2 buttons vs 1, etc. You were the one who had a problem with this discussion and told me what I could and could not post in my own thread. When did I say I couldn't handle this discussion? That seems like what you said when you said take CDG to another thread.

[Ashlayna]

Yes, you can complete an EE solo quest with bugged agro and bugged assassinate button. I am the only one in this thread to show this! Does that mean everything is OK? How would you feel if your quickened maximized heal only worked 80% of the time you hit the button? You would be very upset if you ran EE content and died 30 mins into a 35 minute quest. you would be upset when other players called you a "bad player". That you need to adapt, etc. You probably would quit playing that toon until the bugs are fixed. You might even go to the forums and try an gain support for that bug fix.

Yes, MANY EE players have retired their assassins. Read the thread and count them. Most of those that remain run EH content.

The bard CDG discussion entered this thread when Chai made the statement that I want an easy button (assassin) while supporting current implementation of Bard. Blame Chai for the CDG discussion. I am happy to discuss CDG vs assassinate, DC's timers, 2 buttons vs 1, etc. You were the one who had a problem with this discussion and told me what I could and could not post in my own thread. When did I say I couldn't handle this discussion? That seems like what you said when you said take CDG to another thread.


Originally Posted by nokowi View Post

. If you can't handle a discussion of CDG vs assassinate, stay off the forums.

What does that have to do with anyone bringing up anything? You are the one persisting to nerd rage about Bards in a thread that's supposed to be about bugs with agro and assassinate. You change the "rules" of your thread to suit what you want to argue, and you change them again when somebody points out something that doesn't jibe with what you wanted to prove. Until or unless you can decide what it is we're discussing, and focus on that alone, I'm just going to mark this down as just another troll thread. Congratulations, successful troll was successful, you got lots of hits on a thread that ultimately wound up being nerd rage about CDG. Rage on.

[nokowi]

What does that have to do with anyone bringing up anything? You are the one persisting to nerd rage about Bards in a thread that's supposed to be about bugs with agro and assassinate. You change the "rules" of your thread to suit what you want to argue, and you change them again when somebody points out something that doesn't jibe with what you wanted to prove. Until or unless you can decide what it is we're discussing, and focus on that alone, I'm just going to mark this down as just another troll thread. Congratulations, successful troll was successful, you got lots of hits on a thread that ultimately wound up being nerd rage about CDG. Rage on.

I have clearly stated what I want to discuss. That doesn't mean I won't defend my self against personal attacks or incorrect statements.

Asking for assassin to be returned to pre-U22 (prior to the new bard) is not a thread about CDG.

I asked for the possibly to remain in stealth and an assassinate button that works in a consistent manner.

Can I make my position any clearer?

If people post about other things, I may respond to them. On what page did I first mention CDG? Wouldn't it be in the OP if that was the intent of the thread? Or have you made an emotional leap that does not stand up to facts by ascribing FALSE motives to the OP? This is going off topic of the thread, exactly what you accused me of.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The bard CDG discussion entered this thread when Chai made the statement that I want an easy button (assassin) while supporting current implementation of Bard. Blame Chai for the CDG discussion.

There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. Yet your OPs intent was as subtle as a Category 5 tornado. If you didnt want to discuss CDG you would have not discussed it. Chai would bring it up, and someone else may ormay not hove answered him. However you GLEEFULLY replied, and repeated CDG points through out this thread, like you have ALL THE OTHERS. 100% Grade A MALARKEY is simply that, 100% Grade A MALARKEY.

People have explained the differences to you dozens of times in other threads on this exact same topic already. This "Worthless Classes of DDO" thread of yours was unveiled as this "My assassin EZ button should be bigger than YOUR bard EZ Button" thread in the OP. Noone to blame but that sad rogue you stare at in the mirror.

Most of the people in this thread have been playing rogues and bards for years, you realize this right? They know the nuances. You need to play more and read more before you post topics like this. You seem completely confused (you are arguing on both sides of your own "complaint" and don't even realize it) and out of your league.

[nokowi]

There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. Yet your OPs intent was as subtle as a Category 5 tornado. If you didnt want to discuss CDG you would have not discussed it. Chai would bring it up, and someone else may ormay not hove answered him. However you GLEEFULLY replied, and repeated CDG points through out this thread, like you have ALL THE OTHERS. 100% Grade A MALARKEY is simply that, 100% Grade A MALARKEY.

People have explained the differences to you dozens of times in other threads on this exact same topic already. This "Worthless Classes of DDO" thread of yours was unveiled as this "My assassin EZ button should be bigger than YOUR bard EZ Button" thread in the OP. Noone to blame but that sad rogue you stare at in the mirror.

Most of the people in this thread have been playing rogues and bards for years, you realize this right? They know the nuances. You need to play more and read more before you post topics like this. You seem completely confused (you are arguing on both sides of your own "complaint" and don't even realize it) and out of your league.

So you stand by your statement that the intent of the OP was to discuss CDG?

You continue to make posts ascribing false motives to the OP as "proof" of your correctness, even though I have clearly stated my motives:
1. get agro fixed
2. get assassinate fixed
3. warn players that the 'assassin' they returned to will play very little like that stealthy toon they enjoyed.

People have not been using CDG for years, and the present bard looks very little like the old bard. I gave props to those truly skilled enough to make the old bard work effectively.

Allowing assassinate to work as advertised (you actually get a roll when you should) is not asking for an easy button. This seems to be a symptom of players who migrated to the new bard, but never played the old bard. You are not the first "new" bard to tell me I am asking for an easy button, without recognizing that it is MUCH more difficult to make an int based assassin work on EE content than it is to do the same with the new bard.

Go look up posts saying assassin was OP shortly prior to U22. They don't exist. They have been invented by the new bards after U22.

Once again, how is asking for pre-U22 implementation a response to U22 bard easy button? This statement cannot be true.

[FranOhmsford]

I out DPS all rogue Str builds using assassinate and Int build by a LARGE margin for all but bosses.

Int build is a very viable option, but it takes work (gear/build). New U22 bugs are an issue with Int builds, however.

Since when is Assassinate counted as DPS?

Assassinate is an Insta-Kill!

And if Int is so great then what exactly are you complaining about?


If Assassinate DC's were easy to obtain, Int builds would disappear and people would play Str builds with adrenaline or masters blitz. Why? Because you could still assassinate effectively, and get all the benefits of Str build and str/crit based destinies.

Your words NOT mine!

[nokowi]

Since when is Assassinate counted as DPS?

Assassinate is an Insta-Kill!

And if Int is so great then what exactly are you complaining about?



Your words NOT mine!

Damage is damage. Count up the HP's removes through assassinate and dps and compare with pure DPS. This is how you compare an insta kill toon to an non insta kill toon. Or you can compare kill counts.

The problem is having a button that only works 80-90% of the time, with severe consequences because of agro changes/bugs in U22. The problem is that a toon that was very fun to play pre U22 (stealth assassin) is no longer playable.

No other player would stand up for quicken working 80-90% of the time, epic destiny charges being reset to 0 charges 10-20% of the time, etc.

You would complain if your character was bugged in this manner. I would support your efforts to get your toon working, rather than attack you.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

So you stand by your statement that the intent of the OP was to discuss CDG?

You continue to make posts ascribing false motives to the OP as "proof" of your correctness, even though I have clearly stated my motives:
1. get agro fixed
2. get assassinate fixed
3. warn players that the 'assassin' they returned to will play very little like that stealthy toon they enjoyed.

Your argument is a simple one. Assassin is broken in your world. You want CDG nerfed. But you want assassins to be better. You dont want anyone insulting your ability, BUT you want to insult other 's abilities. You say you are an experienced bard yet you argue you could add 2 levels of monk to a bard to give him evasion. You insist that DCs matter, then they dont. You SWEAR this thread is about FIXING ASSASSIN, FIXING AGRO, and RETURN TO OLD SCHOOL ASSASSIN yet name NONE OF THESE IN THE OP TITLE.



People have not been using CDG for years, and the present bard looks very little like the old bard. I gave props to those truly skilled enough to make the old bard work effectively.

You did? Must have missed it. Must be hiding in plain sight.....


You are not the first "new" bard to tell me I am asking for an easy button, without recognizing that it is MUCH more difficult to make an int based assassin work on EE content than it is to do the same with the new bard.

I am a new bard? He he he he he he....... Dude EVERYONE can see you are looking for a big assassin bump and a big bard nerf, not just "new bards".


Go look up posts saying assassin was OP shortly prior to U22. They don't exist. They have been invented by the new bards after U22.

No need, assassinate never was OP. And neither is a bard that's able to CDG.



Once again, how is asking for pre-U22 implementation a response to U22 bard easy button? This statement cannot be true.

Denial. It appears you suffer from a case of /Openmouthinsertfoot


Bard is EASY BUTTON, not necessarily OP. It is poorly implemented in respect to future game progression and power creep. It is bad game design, even if it is fun to play right now.

[nokowi]

Your argument is a simple one. Assassin is broken in your world. You want CDG nerfed. But you want assassins to be better. You dont want anyone insulting your ability, BUT you want to insult other 's abilities. You say you are an experienced bard yet you argue you could add 2 levels of monk to a bard to give him evasion. You insist that DCs matter, then they dont. You SWEAR this thread is about FIXING ASSASSIN, FIXING AGRO, and RETURN TO OLD SCHOOL ASSASSIN yet name NONE OF THESE IN THE OP TITLE.




You did? Must have missed it. Must be hiding in plain sight.....



I am a new bard? He he he he he he....... Dude EVERYONE can see you are looking for a big assassin bump and a big bard nerf, not just "new bards".



No need, assassinate never was OP. And neither is a bard that's able to CDG.




Denial. It appears you suffer from a case of /Openmouthinsertfoot


I want CDG to be based on an attribute, like every other similar DDO ability. I want people playing bard to obtain equipment or build choices to boost their CDG score, so that players can choose between CDG and between more dps, other build options. It is the same reason I argued AGAINST a boost to assassin DC. It increases the number of viable builds in the game. It is good for DDO. My logic is consistent and clear throughout every thread I have ever posted despite your inability to use reason and instead make up false statements about what I believe.

My opinion on bard has NOTHING to do with fixing assassin. They are completely unrelated. Fixing assassin, means having them WAI, as they did prior to U22. I have stated in no uncertain terms that I will leave the forums forever once assassin is fixed. This should make my motives clear. I will call those of you out who say I am asking for an easy button, when I play a class that is much more difficult than the class you play.

People have a choice, they can either accept the statements I have made in writing, disprove them through other statements I have made, or they can live in a fantasy world where everybody on the forums makes up false statements about every other poster.

Enjoy your fantasy world.

[Ashlayna]

I want CDG to be based on an attribute, like every other similar DDO ability. I want people playing bard to obtain equipment or build choices to boost their CDG score, so that players can choose between CDG and between more dps, other build options. It is the same reason I argued AGAINST a boost to assassin DC. It increases the number of viable builds in the game. It is good for DDO. My logic is consistent and clear throughout every thread I have ever posted despite your inability to use reason and instead make up false statements about what I believe.

My opinion on bard has NOTHING to do with fixing assassin. They are completely unrelated. *snip*

Enjoy your fantasy world.

Then why continue to either bring it up yourself, or respond to it? It makes a big difference to you, as you can see from your own post, conveniently quoted here for your perusal. It makes such a difference to you that you dedicated an entire paragraph to why you think Bards are EZ mode which, by your own admission, has nothing to do with fixing the agro bug. Somebody here is indeed living in a fantasy world. The problem is, we can't seem to get you out of it.

[nokowi]

Then why continue to either bring it up yourself, or respond to it? It makes a big difference to you, as you can see from your own post, conveniently quoted here for your perusal. It makes such a difference to you that you dedicated an entire paragraph to why you think Bards are EZ mode which, by your own admission, has nothing to do with fixing the agro bug. Somebody here is indeed living in a fantasy world. The problem is, we can't seem to get you out of it.

Because having a balanced game with many build options is crucial to the longevity of DDO, whether the DDO players are mature enough to understand it or not.

I do live in a world where I accept statements that other people make as their actual opinion. You may call this fantasy, but is a requirement for the forums to be a place for discussion.

I call people out when they make untrue statements or make up falsehoods about me based on ignorance and fantasy.

[MonadRebelion]

Please watch my posted video: (many bugs)

http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc

The issue here is that we have people not playing EE content who see no problem, and telling those of us that do run EE content that we don't know what we are talking about. This is not an insult to players running EN or EH, but an attempt to identify where/when/what the issue is since U22.

enjoyed your videos and commentary

[FranOhmsford]

Damage is damage. Count up the HP's removes through assassinate and dps and compare with pure DPS. This is how you compare an insta kill toon to an non insta kill toon. Or you can compare kill counts.

Lol at comparing Kill Counts!

And Insta-Kills and DPS are two different things!


The problem is having a button that only works 80-90% of the time, with severe consequences because of agro changes/bugs in U22. The problem is that a toon that was very fun to play pre U22 (stealth assassin) is no longer playable.

There's plenty of people out there still playing Stealth Assassin - You just never see them :D


No other player would stand up for quicken working 80-90% of the time, epic destiny charges being reset to 0 charges 10-20% of the time, etc.

WT;? Has Quicken got to do with anything?
Anyway Quicken's been bugged on and off for years!


You would complain if your character was bugged in this manner. I would support your efforts to get your toon working, rather than attack you.

Really? Strange that I haven't seen you in any of the recent threads I've posted in about multiple issues then.


You complained about everyone going back to STR builds {again Your words NOT mine!} and I stated that that was a problem with STR not with Assassin!
What did you then do?
You bragged about how your Int Build was outdpsing every str build out there!

I ask again - What are you complaining about?




You are not the first "new" bard to tell me I am asking for an easy button,

AH AH AH AH AH - Leslie's been playing Bards for ever!

He's well known for playing Bards!!!


Go look up posts saying assassin was OP shortly prior to U22. They don't exist. They have been invented by the new bards after U22.

No need - from the moment I came to DDO back in Mid 2010 up to the Enhancement Pass Literally EVERY SINGLE CAPPED ROGUE was an ASSASSIN!
And anyone brave enough to play an Acrobat or Rogue Mech was put down at every opportunity by said Assassins!

I've got no sympathy for Assassins whatsoever!!!

Still - I don't like to see ANY Pre mangled so IF there's an issue with Assassinate DCs and I believe there is. It would be nice if the Devs could fix it ASAP!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

There's plenty of people out there still playing Stealth Assassin - You just never see them :D

+1 rotflmao!!

Ahem... now that is some legendary comedy right there! http://r14.imgfast.net/users/1411/39/16/17/smiles/72572.gif

[nokowi]

enjoyed your videos and commentary

Thanks! just solo'd EE brothers of the Forge to the end fight. I got scared and called for guildies at the end door. Wish I had taken a video...

Is there any defense against 400 dmg in 1 shot from the droids? That was brutal, but quite a rush!

I'm posting my 3rd video now (EE detour) if you subscribe to the channel.

[nokowi]

+1 rotflmao!!

Ahem... now that is some legendary comedy right there! http://r14.imgfast.net/users/1411/39/16/17/smiles/72572.gif

:) agreed

[nokowi]

Lol at comparing Kill Counts!

And Insta-Kills and DPS are two different things!



There's plenty of people out there still playing Stealth Assassin - You just never see them :D



WT;? Has Quicken got to do with anything?
Anyway Quicken's been bugged on and off for years!



Really? Strange that I haven't seen you in any of the recent threads I've posted in about multiple issues then.


You complained about everyone going back to STR builds {again Your words NOT mine!} and I stated that that was a problem with STR not with Assassin!
What did you then do?
You bragged about how your Int Build was outdpsing every str build out there!

I ask again - What are you complaining about?





AH AH AH AH AH - Leslie's been playing Bards for ever!

He's well known for playing Bards!!!



No need - from the moment I came to DDO back in Mid 2010 up to the Enhancement Pass Literally EVERY SINGLE CAPPED ROGUE was an ASSASSIN!
And anyone brave enough to play an Acrobat or Rogue Mech was put down at every opportunity by said Assassins!

I've got no sympathy for Assassins whatsoever!!!

Still - I don't like to see ANY Pre mangled so IF there's an issue with Assassinate DCs and I believe there is. It would be nice if the Devs could fix it ASAP!

My bad. He didn't sound experienced when he put new and old bar didn't he same category. I give anyone props for playing the old bard. My sincere apologies!

The current assassin is not the assassin of 2010. The players who needed an OP toon left long ago. I think you will find more acrobats now that assassins.

The thread is about:
1. bugged agro
2. bugged assassinate ability
3. warning returning players they will be sorely disappointed

Read the entire thread and you will find many who agree with me. While you find no point to the thread, many others do. Move on to a new thread if you can't understand why I posted this thread.

As to forum posts. I find very few people who can actually engage in a discussion. I only come here when I want something fixed. I will disappear if/when assassin is fixed. If you have any current bugs you need fixed, I will be glad to read your threads and support your efforts, rather than attack you. If I have nothing helpful to the thread to contribute, I will not post.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

My bad. He didn't sound experienced when he put new and old bar didn't he same category. I give anyone props for playing the old bard. My sincere apologies!

I'm going to shuffle some characters around and assume you just said that you thought I put "new" and "old" bards in "the same category"

I don't even put two bards in the same party WITH THE SAME BUILD in the same category! Especially bards.

Well time for me to go on vacation --- Busch Gardens, Williamsburg Va here I come! ;)

Peace out!


http://youtu.be/jaPLL0h7il0

[nokowi]

I'm going to shuffle some characters around and assume you just said that you thought I put "new" and "old" bards in "the same category"

I don't even put two bards in the same party WITH THE SAME BUILD in the same category! Especially bards.

Well time for me to go on vacation --- Busch Gardens, Williamsburg Va here I come! ;)

Peace out!


http://youtu.be/jaPLL0h7il0

Awesome! Have fun!

[Angelic-council]

The thread is about:
1. bugged agro
2. bugged assassinate ability
3. warning returning players they will be sorely disappointed.

This, and we don't really have to fight here. There shouldn't be a single argument about over powered or person is not playing it right.

It doesn't matter what someone said in the past, we know that something is "wrong" and it has to be fixed. Same goes to many targeting spells that are currently bugged.
I really don't understand the meaning of "general discussion" now.. we have way too many immature players here. If this continuers, it will never gets fixed. Since we are talking about the assassins..
please remember that "Consume" is also bugged too.. since its release.. why it's still bugged? the answer is in this community.

[grandeibra]

I think you will find more acrobats now that assassins.
Seriously now...

[blerkington]

The thread is about:
1. bugged agro
2. bugged assassinate ability
3. warning returning players they will be sorely disappointed

Hi,

These things do need to be fixed, and it's good that you're keeping this topic alive.

I also think you've been extremely patient with some of the nonsense people have posted here. Good on you.

Thanks.

[nokowi]

Hi,

These things do need to be fixed, and it's good that you're keeping this topic alive.

I also think you've been extremely patient with some of the nonsense people have posted here. Good on you.

Thanks.

Thanks for the support. I do regret my tone in some of these posts. I try to be civil, but it is difficult when people make up false motives about you.

Here are the 3 EE Solo videos I have made so far. If anybody wants to watch them, you can clearly see that all of the problems I mentioned do exist, at least on EE content. These bugs are noticeable after only a small amount of play.

http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc
http://youtu.be/xO59BG1bv1E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQAL9ni8HK0

[nokowi]

Seriously now...

Ask around. I am talking about Int based assassinate DC toons, not Str based toons in fury who have taken SA from the assassin tree.

The people who needed OP toons left when AC was changed (they were no longer tough enough).
Many people left when bard came out with a higher DC and more survivability.
Many more left with U22 when agro/assassinate became bugged.
Still others left when they realized that almost all new content has been undead creatures.

Str builds can still work in this environment, but these issues are much more severe for Int builds

[FranOhmsford]

The current assassin is not the assassin of 2010. The players who needed an OP toon left long ago. I think you will find more acrobats now that assassins.]

No they didn't! {Well some of them did but others are still out there and this thread reads like you're one of them!}.


The thread is about:
1. bugged agro
2. bugged assassinate ability
3. warning returning players they will be sorely disappointed

I specifically stated that despite my lack of sympathy towards Assassins I don't like to see ANY Pre or Class hurting comparatively and IF these problems are real they should be looked at ASAP!

Oh and this thread is entitled "Worthless Classes in DDO" Note the Plural there!


Read the entire thread and you will find many who agree with me. While you find no point to the thread, many others do. Move on to a new thread if you can't understand why I posted this thread.

Sorry - I've tried to read the entire thread but I do tend to skip when I see something I just have to reply to {Maybe I missed something but it seems as many disagree with you as agree!}.


As to forum posts. I find very few people who can actually engage in a discussion. I only come here when I want something fixed. I will disappear if/when assassin is fixed. If you have any current bugs you need fixed, I will be glad to read your threads and support your efforts, rather than attack you. If I have nothing helpful to the thread to contribute, I will not post.

If you don't read the posts how will you know?


P.S. I haven't attacked you in any way in this thread - I've tried to help and you threw that back in my face by bragging about your DPS on your Int Build Assassin AFTER complaining that said Int Build Assassin was BROKEN!
A contradiction in terms right there!

STR having so many more ways to build it up than other stats IS behind many of the problems we see with classes and builds!
Any fix that doesn't take this into account will simply cause different problems {maybe with a different prestige!}.

There's a lot of Acrobats around at the moment but how many of them are Pure Rogue - I'd hazard a guess at maybe 1/100!!!

Mechs that are Pure Rogue - Could be doing better but only because that's a flavour build anyway and there's a lot of people who like flavour!
Oh yeah and Arti's P2P like Monk BUT at least Acrobats have Kensai to fall back on!


The so called "fixes" to Mech and Acrobat added as many Nerfs as Buffs and turned BOTH prestiges into Splashes and Multi-Class Builds!

Assassin has been hurt because of DC issues and NOT because of the Enhancement Pass - Fixing Assassin seems to be simple enough BUT I don't want to go back to the days when Acrobats and Mechs were Persona Non Grata thank you very much!

So...That fix to Assassinate DC needs to be done at the same time as making both Acrobat and Mechanic viable as Pure Builds {and YES that means giving Rogue Mechs Light Repeater at Lvl 1 and NOT trying to force us to use a bad weapon!}.

Many Rogue Mechs would still take Arti Levels for the Synergy BUT at least one of the reasons for doing so would be gone! {Pre Lvl 6 Rogue Mechs have literally NO weapon of any use without taking that Arti Level!}.
And NO...We shouldn't have to level up to 6 as an Acrobat or Assassin before then rebuilding our character!!!


EDIT: Eurghh...That reminds me of the biggest issue I have with Sorc - Having to build a Fire or Acid Savant to get through Lvl 1-15 before then being TOLD to swap to Ice or Electric Savant!

[nokowi]

No they didn't! {Well some of them did but others are still out there and this thread reads like you're one of them!}.



I specifically stated that despite my lack of sympathy towards Assassins I don't like to see ANY Pre or Class hurting comparatively and IF these problems are real they should be looked at ASAP!

Oh and this thread is entitled "Worthless Classes in DDO" Note the Plural there!



Sorry - I've tried to read the entire thread but I do tend to skip when I see something I just have to reply to {Maybe I missed something but it seems as many disagree with you as agree!}.



If you don't read the posts how will you know?


P.S. I haven't attacked you in any way in this thread - I've tried to help and you threw that back in my face by bragging about your DPS on your Int Build Assassin AFTER complaining that said Int Build Assassin was BROKEN!
A contradiction in terms right there!

STR having so many more ways to build it up than other stats IS behind many of the problems we see with classes and builds!
Any fix that doesn't take this into account will simply cause different problems {maybe with a different prestige!}.

There's a lot of Acrobats around at the moment but how many of them are Pure Rogue - I'd hazard a guess at maybe 1/100!!!

Mechs that are Pure Rogue - Could be doing better but only because that's a flavour build anyway and there's a lot of people who like flavour!
Oh yeah and Arti's P2P like Monk BUT at least Acrobats have Kensai to fall back on!


The so called "fixes" to Mech and Acrobat added as many Nerfs as Buffs and turned BOTH prestiges into Splashes and Multi-Class Builds!

Assassin has been hurt because of DC issues and NOT because of the Enhancement Pass - Fixing Assassin seems to be simple enough BUT I don't want to go back to the days when Acrobats and Mechs were Persona Non Grata thank you very much!

So...That fix to Assassinate DC needs to be done at the same time as making both Acrobat and Mechanic viable as Pure Builds {and YES that means giving Rogue Mechs Light Repeater at Lvl 1 and NOT trying to force us to use a bad weapon!}.

Many Rogue Mechs would still take Arti Levels for the Synergy BUT at least one of the reasons for doing so would be gone! {Pre Lvl 6 Rogue Mechs have literally NO weapon of any use without taking that Arti Level!}.
And NO...We shouldn't have to level up to 6 as an Acrobat or Assassin before then rebuilding our character!!!


EDIT: Eurghh...That reminds me of the biggest issue I have with Sorc - Having to build a Fire or Acid Savant to get through Lvl 1-15 before then being TOLD to swap to Ice or Electric Savant!

There is no way I can come to the forums and state that Int build assassin is a viable option without you thinking I am bragging about myself. So while you are not directly attacking me, you are making characterizations about me that are untrue. This needs to stop. Let me make statements about myself, my motives, my opinions. Feel free to ask for clarity if I do not make them clear myself. This thread is full of people ascribing false motives to me. Why wasn't I on the forums 4 years ago (as you state bragging about myself)? Because I was busy playing DDO. I have no need or desire to brag on the forums. It is painful for me to keep coming here. As soon as assassin is fixed, I will be gone.

Please read through rogue threads. You will find many people state that they left when AC was changed. Why? Because they no longer had the survivability of having an AC so high that you could tank as a rogue to go with the assassin dps. People who wanted dps AND survivability left. This is a statement of logic. Now as to what type of people still play assassin, I can only speak for myself, those players that I have ran into, and opinions expressed on the forums. If you go to the rogue pages and look at what assassins are asking for, there are two types of responses.

1. people who left assassin and want a power boost before they come back. They want assassin and or rogue in general to be buffed liked bard was, with very few limitations.
2. people who still play assassin and love the strengths and weaknesses of the build. These players ask for slight fixes, and specifically ask assassin NOT to be turned into bard (buffed to the point of having only strengths but no weaknesses).

You are mischaracterizing the assassin population that I know that currently plays the game, I believe based on opinions developed when level 20 was the cap and assassin had no weaknesses.

I hear you on the enhancement lines. I take all kinds of worthless abilities to get extra intelligence. It is kind of annoying, but this is not a major issue that prevents people from playing rogue or any of the prestige lines. D&D has a history of requiring you to take somewhat worthless feats to get into prestige classes. It balances the power gained by the prestige class. I personally am OK with most of the current enhancement lines, particularly when I see bigger issues right now:
1. agro
2. bugs in assassinate
3. bugs in poison use

I would recommend you start a thread for enhancement line changes and see what kind of support/ideas can be generated. I can probably contribute more after seeing a range of ideas. If assassin is not yet fixed, I will still be on the forums.

[FranOhmsford]

Please read through rogue threads. You will find many people state that left when AC was changed. Why? Because they no longer had the survivability of having an AC so high that you could tank as a rogue to go with the assassin dps. People who wanted dps AND survivability left. This is a statement of logic.

You have got to be kidding me?

WHY SHOULD ROGUES BE ABLE TO TANK!?!

What does that leave for Sacred Defenders or Stalwarts?

WHY SHOULD ASSASSINS GET THE BEST INSTA-KILLS + THE MOST SURVIVABILITY!?!

Those People can stay gone for all I care!!!


And I've posted in many Rogue threads - I'm not going to read every single one that I somehow or other missed and I steer well clear of Build threads anyway as most of them expect you to have multiple Past Lives and an absolutely perfect gear set up AND ignore the levelling up concentrating only on what you'll have at End-Game!


Assassinate should be equal to FoD and QP at the very least - This is Obvious!
AND
Rogues {ALL ROGUES} should be able to get viable defenses - This too is Obvious!
BUT
TANKING?
NO NO NO!!!


The ONLY Rogue Pre that needs even close to Tank Viable Defenses is Acrobat - Because they have to go into the Melee to do their thing - They don't skulk in the shadows waiting for a chance to Assassinate mobs AND They don't stay 30 ft or more away from the mobs shooting a Repeater all day long!
BUT even they AREN'T TANKS!



You CAN STILL get both DPS and Survivability - Those who wanted THE BEST DPS and THE MOST SURVIVABILITY left!
And Good Riddance!!!

[nokowi]

You have got to be kidding me?

WHY SHOULD ROGUES BE ABLE TO TANK!?!

What does that leave for Sacred Defenders or Stalwarts?

WHY SHOULD ASSASSINS GET THE BEST INSTA-KILLS + THE MOST SURVIVABILITY!?!

Those People can stay gone for all I care!!!


And I've posted in many Rogue threads - I'm not going to read every single one that I somehow or other missed and I steer well clear of Build threads anyway as most of them expect you to have multiple Past Lives and an absolutely perfect gear set up AND ignore the levelling up concentrating only on what you'll have at End-Game!


Assassinate should be equal to FoD and QP at the very least - This is Obvious!
AND
Rogues {ALL ROGUES} should be able to get viable defenses - This too is Obvious!
BUT
TANKING?
NO NO NO!!!


The ONLY Rogue Pre that needs even close to Tank Viable Defenses is Acrobat - Because they have to go into the Melee to do their thing - They don't skulk in the shadows waiting for a chance to Assassinate mobs AND They don't stay 30 ft or more away from the mobs shooting a Repeater all day long!
BUT even they AREN'T TANKS!



You CAN STILL get both DPS and Survivability - Those who wanted THE BEST DPS and THE MOST SURVIVABILITY left!
And Good Riddance!!!

Umm. maybe you misunderstood me. I do not want a return to level 20 cap rogue with unhittable AC.

What I don't want is for current assassin players to be characterized as the old assassin players who left because they didn't have everything and found easier classes (pick your FOTM build). You see this from a few people throughout this thread, who seem to think that the 2014 assassin (and people who play it) are the same as the 2010 assassins. (You want an easy button, auto success, etc)

[FranOhmsford]

Umm. maybe you misunderstood me. I do not want a return to level 20 cap rogue with unhittable AC.

What I don't want is for current assassin players to be characterized as the old assassin players who left because they didn't have everything and found easier classes (pick your FOTM build). You see this from a few people throughout this thread, who seem to think that the 2014 assassin (and people who play it) are the same as the 2010 assassins. (You want an easy button, auto success, etc)

It read like you were using their leaving as a reason to get Assassin boosted.

It read like you were saying "Hey look, No-One's playing Assassins anymore because they're gimped - Those who did play them have all left".


Now Assassins may need a Boost to bring them back up to viable levels BUT I'm not the only one who grew extremely fed up of the Assassin love in we had pre Enhancement Pass!

And Acrobats and Mechs aren't exactly uber toons either {Pure Acrobats that is!}.

The last thing we want to see is everyone playing Assassins again!


Any buffs to one Rogue Pre need to be balanced with buffs to the others!

Same as any Buff to Stalwart Defender or Pale Master or Warpriest needs to be balanced with buffs to Kensei, Archmage/EK and Radiant Servant/Divine whatsitcalled!

[nokowi]

It read like you were using their leaving as a reason to get Assassin boosted.

It read like you were saying "Hey look, No-One's playing Assassins anymore because they're gimped - Those who did play them have all left".


Now Assassins may need a Boost to bring them back up to viable levels BUT I'm not the only one who grew extremely fed up of the Assassin love in we had pre Enhancement Pass!

And Acrobats and Mechs aren't exactly uber toons either {Pure Acrobats that is!}.

The last thing we want to see is everyone playing Assassins again!


Any buffs to one Rogue Pre need to be balanced with buffs to the others!

Same as any Buff to Stalwart Defender or Pale Master or Warpriest needs to be balanced with buffs to Kensei, Archmage/EK and Radiant Servant/Divine whatsitcalled!

I have argued that assassin doesn't need a boost for current content. I made EE solo videos to show the effectiveness of an int based assassin (even with U22 bugs), as well as to demonstrate the current bugs. I am on board with you, that the current assassin is something special. Hide/Move Silently changes were very well implemented (prior to U22 bugs), and combat in stealth is truly a unique play style that doesn't exist in other builds. DDO had done a fantastic job with assassin prior to U22 bugs. DC's may need a revisit with new content. I personally don't want a DC change other than through new (max level) gear as new content is released.

Acrobat seems to be fairly effective right now, although these will often be multiclass builds. The +40% melee power at 28 in U23 will help this line. As a disclaimer I don't play an acrobat build, but this is the response I hear from players. Acrobats can jump in here and provide some information.

Mechanic needs some work to be playable, either through unique traps, increased elemental damage, or some other method to allow them to make a unique contribution. Even having 1/2 the reset timer for new traps would be great. Taking more points in mechanic tree should make you better at traps. I proposed +10?% elemental trap damage per point in the tree. Any boost (5% per point) would be appreciated.

[FranOhmsford]

I have argued that assassin doesn't need a boost for current content. I made EE solo videos to show the effectiveness of an int based assassin (even with U22 bugs), as well as to demonstrate the current bugs. I am on board with you, that the current assassin is something special. Hide/Move Silently changes were very well implemented (prior to U22 bugs), and combat in stealth is truly a unique play style that doesn't exist in other builds. DDO had done a fantastic job with assassin prior to U22 bugs. DC's may need a revisit with new content. I personally don't want a DC change other than through new (max level) gear as new content is released.

Then I'm sorry but what IS the PROBLEM then that caused you to create this thread?

If Assassinate works fine then I don't get what your issue actually IS?

[Dagolar]

Worthless Classes in DDO

I found that 'Intro to Kobold Ping Pong' class especially worthless, ever since they removed the mini-kobolds from 3BC..
The game just isn't the same, you know?

I mean, sure, you can lay down all the Kobold Butter you want, but they just don't BOUNCE the way they used to..

Sigh.

[PermaBanned]

So while you are not directly attacking me, you are making characterizations about me that are untrue. This needs to stop. Let me make statements about myself, my motives, my opinions. Feel free to ask for clarity if I do not make them clear myself. This thread is full of people ascribing false motives to me. If I may offer a token of advice: when you see something as a personal attack, mischaracterization of your motives or any other such issue not directly related to your threads intent - ignor it. If you only reply to on topic posts, and only keep your posts on topic, your thread about bugged agro and assassinate mechanics will not grow into 16 pages of (to summarize) "hyperbole laced Assassin vs CdG reviews of your quality as a person or player."

If you leave your emotions between the chair and the keybored, make the title fit the premise and keep your participation in the thread focused on the topic, you'll find you have a much more productive discussion. If you don't feed those you perceive as trolls (don't respond to off topic/personal attack posts) they wander off quickly.

[nokowi]

Then I'm sorry but what IS the PROBLEM then that caused you to create this thread?

If Assassinate works fine then I don't get what your issue actually IS?

My opinion is that the prestige prior to U22 was fine. U22 has the new bugs mentioned in this thread.

[nokowi]

If I may offer a token of advice: when you see something as a personal attack, mischaracterization of your motives or any other such issue not directly related to your threads intent - ignor it. If you only reply to on topic posts, and only keep your posts on topic, your thread about bugged agro and assassinate mechanics will not grow into 16 pages of (to summarize) "hyperbole laced Assassin vs CdG reviews of your quality as a person or player."

If you leave your emotions between the chair and the keybored, make the title fit the premise and keep your participation in the thread focused on the topic, you'll find you have a much more productive discussion. If you don't feed those you perceive as trolls (don't respond to off topic/personal attack posts) they wander off quickly.

The title does represent my emotions at the time of the OP. I stand by all the statements in this post. Stealth assassin IS ruined right now for the reasons I have stated. Read through the thread and you will find some returning players who have come back since U22 and who agree. Count the number of players that have stopped playing their assassin due to U22 bugs. What remains is primarily players on EN/EH content where bugs appear to be much less of an issue. People have left for greener pastures.

It is a shame given the quality of play of this unique prestige line prior to U22.

Many people understand that Int based assassin should be MORE effective on EE content than on EH or EN content because assassinate is removing more powerful foes. Having the EE version bugged is a big problem because Int builds dont make sense in EN, or are only so-so in EH content. EE is where assassin shines (or used to, anyway).

[Angelic-council]

Thanks for the support. I do regret my tone in some of these posts. I try to be civil, but it is difficult when people make up false motives about you.


Just ignore them.. If you react, as you can see now.. this will never end.

[Dagolar]

If you leave your emotions between the chair and the keybored.

Every time I try that, they animate ala living spells, and start trying to kill off the Coin Lords.

It's a srs problem :(

[Chai]

Bard is EASY BUTTON, not necessarily OP. It is poorly implemented in respect to future game progression and power creep. It is bad game design, even if it is fun to play right now.

As to your second statement, once again I cannot grasp your (lack of) logic.

Any chance you could make statements related to the thread instead of about other people?

Youre claiming lack of logic, but haven't answered most of my questions. Youre glossing over those because you understand they cannot be answered honestly without refuting the very premise you set out to make here. This type attempt to initiate personal discussion is very common after the premise runs out of steam and those who disagree bring up counterpoints that cannot be refuted.

Youre also making bard comments again after several times asking others to stick to the topic. When we do that and you have no answer for it, you change the subject again and start hammering away at bards, and when your bard rants are refuted, you accuse folks of not sticking to the topic. This type of avoidance of discussing the issue is not due to any lack of logic of those who disagree, its due to a lack of ability to refute their stance on the issue. The more this type of waffling happens, the more they will lay into you with it, demanding an answer.

The lack of knowledge for how traps work, and talk of multiclassing a bard with 2 monk levels for evasion, told us all we needed to know, about how much research was really done before you came to the boards and began making claims about bards and rogues. In two different conversations with you now regarding the bard class I have made the comments about how bards getting some love was a good choice because they cant be multiclassed with paladin or monk, so the best ways of creating a truly OP multiclass are off the table. Even if you never played a bard in this game, you were already informed a minimum of twice on this, and still blew it here when making that comment. The conclusion any objective reader will make when seeing that, is that no homework was done before the OP claims and nerf requests were made.

The myths are debunked at this point. No objective player feels bards are OP, as the limitations of mechanics claimed to be OP are understood as well. No objective player feels rogue is worthless, as they understand the mechanics that are optimal and viable as well as the downsides. They paint the picture of pros AND cons when discussing, rather than posting only what supports one side of the agenda.

So how about discussing the pros AND the cons.

[Ashlayna]

Youre claiming lack of logic, but haven't answered most of my questions. Youre glossing over those because you understand they cannot be answered honestly without refuting the very premise you set out to make here. This type attempt to initiate personal discussion is very common after the premise runs out of steam and those who disagree bring up counterpoints that cannot be refuted.

Youre also making bard comments again after several times asking others to stick to the topic. When we do that and you have no answer for it, you change the subject again and start hammering away at bards, and when your bard rants are refuted, you accuse folks of not sticking to the topic. This type of avoidance of discussing the issue is not due to any lack of logic of those who disagree, its due to a lack of ability to refute their stance on the issue. The more this type of waffling happens, the more they will lay into you with it, demanding an answer.

The lack of knowledge for how traps work, and talk of multiclassing a bard with 2 monk levels for evasion, told us all we needed to know, about how much research was really done before you came to the boards and began making claims about bards and rogues. In two different conversations with you now regarding the bard class I have made the comments about how bards getting some love was a good choice because they cant be multiclassed with paladin or monk, so the best ways of creating a truly OP multiclass are off the table. Even if you never played a bard in this game, you were already informed a minimum of twice on this, and still blew it here when making that comment. The conclusion any objective reader will make when seeing that, is that no homework was done before the OP claims and nerf requests were made.

The myths are debunked at this point. No objective player feels bards are OP, as the limitations of mechanics claimed to be OP are understood as well. No objective player feels rogue is worthless, as they understand the mechanics that are optimal and viable as well as the downsides. They paint the picture of pros AND cons when discussing, rather than posting only what supports one side of the agenda.

So how about discussing the pros AND the cons.

This is why I quit responding to him, I'm feeling like we're being trolled. It's ok for him to discuss bard, but nobody else is allowed to, or they're going "off topic". On one day, the class is completely unplayable, see the opening post, yet on others, it's just the bugs that make it harder, until someone points out something else, and then it's unplayable again. On one hand, Int builds are falling off, but, on that same hand, his Int build can out dps a bard. I've pointed out this waffling multiple times, but I'm always just throwing out personal attacks, instead of simply pointing out inconsistencies he presents, even when I directly quote posts he made, it's my fault that he did it. So better to just let this thread die a horrible death, he's got another one that's supposed to be discussing the exact same issues he claims were the objective here. I haven't read it, I considered the source after reading this entire thread, so it won't hurt his cause to have this fall off into the obscurity it deserves.

[leadindavid]

Hello, I’m new to posting on forums; I mostly read and extrapolate information useful in bettering my chosen play-style. That being said I found myself searching the forums that would indicate that the auto agro of all remaining mobs after a successful/unsuccessful assassination was a mistake by the devs, and was not intended; giving me hope that it will be fixed in a future fix or update. The most extravagant example of the assassinate agro being broken was on the quest Bring me the head of gohla fan. Was soloing with a parked cleric hire came up to the doors where the DM says you can hear loud snoring opened the door without wakening any mobs went in stealthily and assassinated one of the sleeping ogres in a corner by himself and immediately after the assassination all the others ogres were waking up and attacking me, so very wrong imo. However, the reason for my post is to let both Chai and Nokowi know how much I appreciate their input on this topic. I can see from both of your posts how passionately you both feel towards your rouges. In earlier posts you both made me feel like this mistake in agro would get the attention of those with the ability to fix the issue. I have to admit you both lost me after the berating of each other kept up for at least 3 pages not sure if it was resolved or agreed to disagree since i skipped to the last 3 pages hoping to see some progress on the actual issue of fixing the auto-agro after assassination, if done intelligently like you both have agreed on in your earliest posts; Maybe that’s why intelligence is the main factor in the assassinate dc.
If it is possible i would like to follow, friend or whatever it is here that allows me to easily find posts from both of you.
Trexal Shadowfoot, Argonessen 1st life rouge, 2nd life 11pally/9rouge, 3rd life 19ranger/1 rouge 4th-5th life darkmonk and currently 14 straight intel assassin build.
bio- why pick their pockets for a few measly coins when you can put a dagger in their back and take everything.

[nokowi]

Youre claiming lack of logic, but haven't answered most of my questions. Youre glossing over those because you understand they cannot be answered honestly without refuting the very premise you set out to make here. This type attempt to initiate personal discussion is very common after the premise runs out of steam and those who disagree bring up counterpoints that cannot be refuted.

Youre also making bard comments again after several times asking others to stick to the topic. When we do that and you have no answer for it, you change the subject again and start hammering away at bards, and when your bard rants are refuted, you accuse folks of not sticking to the topic. This type of avoidance of discussing the issue is not due to any lack of logic of those who disagree, its due to a lack of ability to refute their stance on the issue. The more this type of waffling happens, the more they will lay into you with it, demanding an answer.

The lack of knowledge for how traps work, and talk of multiclassing a bard with 2 monk levels for evasion, told us all we needed to know, about how much research was really done before you came to the boards and began making claims about bards and rogues. In two different conversations with you now regarding the bard class I have made the comments about how bards getting some love was a good choice because they cant be multiclassed with paladin or monk, so the best ways of creating a truly OP multiclass are off the table. Even if you never played a bard in this game, you were already informed a minimum of twice on this, and still blew it here when making that comment. The conclusion any objective reader will make when seeing that, is that no homework was done before the OP claims and nerf requests were made.

The myths are debunked at this point. No objective player feels bards are OP, as the limitations of mechanics claimed to be OP are understood as well. No objective player feels rogue is worthless, as they understand the mechanics that are optimal and viable as well as the downsides. They paint the picture of pros AND cons when discussing, rather than posting only what supports one side of the agenda.

So how about discussing the pros AND the cons.


/ignore

[nokowi]

This is why I quit responding to him, I'm feeling like we're being trolled. It's ok for him to discuss bard, but nobody else is allowed to, or they're going "off topic". On one day, the class is completely unplayable, see the opening post, yet on others, it's just the bugs that make it harder, until someone points out something else, and then it's unplayable again. On one hand, Int builds are falling off, but, on that same hand, his Int build can out dps a bard. I've pointed out this waffling multiple times, but I'm always just throwing out personal attacks, instead of simply pointing out inconsistencies he presents, even when I directly quote posts he made, it's my fault that he did it. So better to just let this thread die a horrible death, he's got another one that's supposed to be discussing the exact same issues he claims were the objective here. I haven't read it, I considered the source after reading this entire thread, so it won't hurt his cause to have this fall off into the obscurity it deserves.

My complaints relate only to the bugged agro and assassinate ability (getting no roll 10-20% of the time).

Other people have complained about the thread going off topic. If you want to discuss bard, I am happy to go off topic:

Having an assassin with MANY weaknesses (undead, survivability, healing, bugged agro and assassinate) that can do one thing well (kill things) is not a fair comparison with a class that has no weaknesses. Any noob can pick up bard and out class 95% of rogues.

Now that I have addressed your bard complaints, please stop accusing me of being the attacker to off topic posts. I have responded to almost all of them throughout this thread. You will even find people who suggest I stop doing this.

I happen to be very good at assassin but it is based on build sacrifice, gear, and skill. My skill and years of playing to achieve this excellence does not mean that bugs don't exist, nor that they don't need to be fixed. You can watch the following 4 videos and see many bugs, which is the topic of the OP. You will also see that I have the incredible skill (sarcasm) to lay down a trap.
http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc
http://youtu.be/xO59BG1bv1E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQAL9ni8HK0
http://youtu.be/F7SLOXfP3vk

[nokowi]

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?

Since the Dev's have never officially responded to these bugs, I wanted to let everyone know that these bugs appear to be fixed on Lammannia. :)

The auto-spot for assassinate bug is fixed on lamannia!
You remain stealthed after assassinate.
You can once again double assassinate without needing agro.
Bluff seems to be working as well.
I am pretty sure the grazing hit bug will also be gone, but I will need to play more extensively to be sure. (In U22 you sometimes got grazing hits on EE while in stealth, but never when someone else had agro. This prevented assassinate from working ~10% of the time).

A special thanks to everyone who talked about these bugs on the forums!
I know we got no Dev response, but they do seem to have heard us.


For those of you interested in rogue endgame play, I will be posting some new videos showing rogue play without bugs once U23 comes live:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgjCKLGi8kMIzg2BtiojRfg

[Angelic-council]

Since the Dev's have never officially responded to these bugs, I wanted to let everyone know that these bugs appear to be fixed on Lammannia. :)

The auto-spot for assassinate bug is fixed on lamannia!
You remain stealthed after assassinate.
You can once again double assassinate without needing agro.
Bluff seems to be working as well.
I am pretty sure the grazing hit bug will also be gone, but I will need to play more extensively to be sure. (In U22 you sometimes got grazing hits on EE while in stealth, but never when someone else had agro. This prevented assassinate from working ~10% of the time).

A special thanks to everyone who talked about these bugs on the forums!
I know we got no Dev response, but they do seem to have heard us.


For those of you interested in rogue endgame play, I will be posting some new videos showing rogue play without bugs once U23 comes live:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgjCKLGi8kMIzg2BtiojRfg

I forgot to post. They actually did announced it on stream.

Dev: by the way, we fixed the assassination bug. It should hit the lammania next week.

Cordovan: haha. That's good.

lol..