[idea]playable iconic race [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

burningwind

07-30-2014, 11:55 PM

it's a limited income if you sold Iconics to every player it's a possibility of recurring income to require the heart.

Still even without the income reasoning your asking to completely ignore the lore surrounding Iconics and the intent that they be a class race combo.

These threads have come and gone this is old news.

perhaps you should recommend them start selling completionist~~ that would surely make more earning, and i bet you support it fully~~

p.s. people like you is the reason of why the game is so empty. they sale everything, level, equipment(asah), what else is there without a price tag? dungeon and dragon online become money and payment online~~ hope this suit you need~~ it is old topic, i have made the same topic on the first day the expansion get tested, and again when expansion get released. and again several times.. this might not be the last.. i might come back and make another same post someday.. until this game dies.. which is not afar.. as long as there are more people like you

Oxarhamar

07-31-2014, 12:19 AM

perhaps you should recommend them start selling completionist~~ that would surely make more earning, and i bet you support it fully~~

p.s. people like you is the reason of why the game is so empty. they sale everything, level, equipment(asah), what else is there without a price tag? dungeon and dragon online become money and payment online~~ hope this suit you need~~ it is old topic, i have made the same topic on the first day the expansion get tested, and again when expansion get released. and again several times.. this might not be the last.. i might come back and make another same post someday.. until this game dies.. which is not afar.. as long as there are more people like you

They already to sell completionist its called Otto's box.

I'm sure the game is dieing because, players like me don't think you should get iconic without the 1st level lock in THAT IS THE TRADE OFF of the iconic.

All my lives have been Iconic since they have been released. with 13 Epic TRs and 5 Iconic TR I only ever used a Heart once and it was not store purchased just something I had in the bank. I find it unnecessary to remove the levels if you build around them.

Still if you want to remove the 1st level to play a pure class or other Iconic without the class your going to need a heart.

droid327

07-31-2014, 09:05 AM

why not?

Because the Iconic base races are intentionally overpowered, and the balance on that is the fact that they're locked into a L1 class selection. You trade a little extra power for a little less flexibility. The whole reason you want to have unlocked Iconics is because they're fundamentally better than "base" races, but that's asking for all the benefits of a thing without any of their drawbacks, which of course isn't fair.

If you took away Bladeforged's 1 req Pal level, for instance, you'd have to take away their Recon SLA etc., and then you just have a Warforged. If you took away a PDK's 1 req Fighter level, you'd have to take away CHA-to-dmg and their special ABs, and then you just have a Human.

You might as well ask them to give Evasion to heavy armor characters. You have to make tradeoffs sometimes to gain certain things.

Chai

07-31-2014, 09:20 AM

Why so they can become the SoP race choices for many rather then make them a uncommon thing and those who are willing to buy their way free of the inherent level they are meant to be limited gain that perk by helping to support the game further.

Yours is just another whiny demand of entitlement. You want something shiny you see others have payed for and want it for nothing.

Iconic races are powerful, and they are balanced by having their first lvl predefined. Its a further pay for extra power perk to change that lvl out.

Its not complex, nor some logic puzzle to understand this. Pay up or shut up as the saying goes.

Thats not really balance when you can LR the level off.

How many people would buy and use these if it didnt have a punitive penalty on a character by character basis of having to take the first level in a specific class?

Kalimah

07-31-2014, 09:30 AM

how many would buy it? just to use these build? and how many will buy iconic? there are only few hundred player.. how many have you bought?

p.s. how many player don't have iconic? buying a heart of wood everyday is not realistic for most people who got a life

Or..you could work within the framework of the Iconic class system. If you don't want to be a level of paladin then don't select Iconic Bladefored Paladin as your selection.

I don't agree that it should be a base player race...redundant.

Chai

07-31-2014, 09:34 AM

Because the Iconic base races are intentionally overpowered, and the balance on that is the fact that they're locked into a L1 class selection. You trade a little extra power for a little less flexibility. The whole reason you want to have unlocked Iconics is because they're fundamentally better than "base" races, but that's asking for all the benefits of a thing without any of their drawbacks, which of course isn't fair.

If you took away Bladeforged's 1 req Pal level, for instance, you'd have to take away their Recon SLA etc., and then you just have a Warforged. If you took away a PDK's 1 req Fighter level, you'd have to take away CHA-to-dmg and their special ABs, and then you just have a Human.

You might as well ask them to give Evasion to heavy armor characters. You have to make tradeoffs sometimes to gain certain things.

Id be with you on this if there wasnt a way to LR the level off.

That paladin level isnt making the class weaker, its just limiting the other classes that can be taken, but not in a "balance" fashion. It has nothing to do with the recon SLA. The fighter level has nothing to do with cha to damage on a PDK. Its not really balancing anything out.

I wonder how many more people would buy those if they werent limited arbitrarily.

droid327

07-31-2014, 10:21 AM

Id be with you on this if there wasnt a way to LR the level off.

That paladin level isnt making the class weaker, its just limiting the other classes that can be taken, but not in a "balance" fashion. It has nothing to do with the recon SLA. The fighter level has nothing to do with cha to damage on a PDK. Its not really balancing anything out.

I wonder how many more people would buy those if they werent limited arbitrarily.

Well the only way to LR it off is to buy an LR. And that's only good for that one life. So the tradeoff there is money for additional power, instead of drawbacks...a bit of P2W

What other "fashion" is there? You're limiting flexibility. That's always a drawback, when you take options away from someone. You cant take a 3-class build unless one of the classes is the autogrant. BF, which has arguably the most powerful Iconic-race ability, also has the most restrictive setup (LG Pal 1).

And of course more people would buy them if they weren't limited. The question was never whether people WOULD P2W, it was simply how much should they be allowed to. I think having fully-unlocked Iconics (not just on a life-by-life, recurring-charge basis) would have them fall squarely into "P2W Race"

Chai

07-31-2014, 10:57 AM

Well the only way to LR it off is to buy an LR. And that's only good for that one life. So the tradeoff there is money for additional power, instead of drawbacks...a bit of P2W

What other "fashion" is there? You're limiting flexibility. That's always a drawback, when you take options away from someone. You cant take a 3-class build unless one of the classes is the autogrant. BF, which has arguably the most powerful Iconic-race ability, also has the most restrictive setup (LG Pal 1).

And of course more people would buy them if they weren't limited. The question was never whether people WOULD P2W, it was simply how much should they be allowed to. I think having fully-unlocked Iconics (not just on a life-by-life, recurring-charge basis) would have them fall squarely into "P2W Race"

They fall squarely into p2w race as it is. The life by life LR requirement to unlock fully, makes it a punitive penalty AFTER the player already paid for them. Thats part of the issue I see. Should be one or the other, not both, and prob would sell more if it was one or the other.

As much as they change the game and the way characters are built, making character respec a punitive penalty is already a bad idea.

TrinityTurtle

07-31-2014, 11:11 AM

I would be okay with them removing the first class, IF they all start at level one instead of 15 like everyone else. I really dont' want to see an army of just the four races running around and the lower levels become any harder for new players to find groups than they already are.

Tscheuss

07-31-2014, 11:29 AM

They fall squarely into p2w race as it is. The life by life LR requirement to unlock fully, makes it a punitive penalty AFTER the player already paid for them. Thats part of the issue I see. Should be one or the other, not both, and prob would sell more if it was one or the other.

As much as they change the game and the way characters are built, making character respec a punitive penalty is already a bad idea.

Lack of bonus is NOT a penalty. Buying something and getting it as advertised is not a penalty. Calling it a penalty still does not make it so. If you want the privilege of changing an Iconic's first level class, then you pay for it. Simple. Being required to pay for something extra is not a penalty.

Demanding that same something extra as though it were your due is entitlement thinking.

Chai

07-31-2014, 11:32 AM

Lack of bonus is NOT a penalty. Buying something and getting it as advertised is not a penalty. Calling it a penalty still does not make it so. If you want the privilege of changing an Iconic's first level class, then you pay for it. Simple. Being required to pay for something extra is not a penalty.

Demanding that same something extra as though it were your due is entitlement thinking.

Arbitrary double billing is arbitrary. If I pay for the iconic, Im not going to pay again on a per life basis for the "privilage" of removing an arbitrary first character level so I can build what I want. It is a punitive charge on a per life basis on something the player already paid for.

Other races do not suffer this limitation. Its an added limitation that needs to be removed through paying, not an extra benefit that is being purchased.

Demanding that same something extra as though it were your due is entitlement thinking.

Thats not the case here. People already paid for iconics. They should be able to build on them as they see fit.

BigErkyKid

07-31-2014, 11:35 AM

Demanding that same something extra as though it were your due is entitlement thinking.

No. People would prefer not to be locked into it. There is no "hard" reason behind locking them. Not at all. It is not a matter of code, it is not a matter of balance (if it was, why allow to p2win out of it?).

It is a strictly commercial decision that. When they make them p2p classes and have arguably some of the best abilities (reconstruct is huge, on top of very interesting abilities) and then again they put another barrier to make people pay a toll, some get annoyed.

It is not entitlement. We are not kids that need to be told that things cost effort or that we have to work for what we want.

TrinityTurtle

07-31-2014, 11:37 AM

Arbitrary double billing is arbitrary. If I pay for the iconic, Im not going to pay again on a per life basis for the "privilage" of removing an arbitrary first character level so I can build what I want. It is a punitive charge on a per life basis on something the player already paid for.

Thats not the case here. People already paid for iconics. They should be able to build on them as they see fit.

Except that I recall knowing what I was getting into when I bought them, and understanding that the first level class lock was in place. I wasn't fooled or lied to, and was in fact offered a way around the level class restriction with the +1 hearts if I was really intent on not using that level, but that I still got the 15 free levels and still benefitted from my purchase even if I bought a heart to change that first level.

FranOhmsford

07-31-2014, 11:37 AM

I would be okay with them removing the first class, IF they all start at level one instead of 15 like everyone else.

I can /sign this.

Still even without the income reasoning your asking to completely ignore the lore surrounding Iconics and the intent that they be a class race combo.

WHAT Lore?

There is NO Lore in D&D stating that Morninglords, Bladeforged etc. MUST start at Lvl 15!

There is however Lore stating that Drow MUST start at Lvl 4 or 5 {Menzoberranzen{sp} Box Set!}!

Morninglords get the +2 Int of Grey {Gold or Faerie} Elves - Who are known as Wizards and Knights NOT Clerics! {though possibly Paladins!}.

Mountain Dwarf would have been a far better option for an ICONIC Battle Cleric! {and the Devs could have added +2 Wis in here easily enough as there's lots of Fantasy Lore about Dwarves being Down to Earth as opposed to the flighty Elves!}.

I still can't get over Turbine re-using PDK models for Pirates in 3BC - Rather ruins the ICONIC Knight of Cormyr don't you think!

And Don't even get me started on Shadar-Kai!

In fact: Bladeforged are pretty much the ONLY truly ICONIC {Eberron wise} character Turbine gave us!

Change the Morninglord to give a Wizard lvl at Lvl 1.
Create a Dwarven Battle Cleric Iconic {with +2 Wis as well as +2 Con}.

And for goodness sake start work on the Little People Pack - Forest Gnomes or Svirfnebli {+wis and dex}, Eberron Gnomes {+int and con}, Kobolds {+cha and dex} and Goblin enemies!

Chai

07-31-2014, 11:38 AM

Except that I recall knowing what I was getting into when I bought them, and understanding that the first level class lock was in place. I wasn't fooled or lied to, and was in fact offered a way around the level class restriction with the +1 hearts if I was really intent on not using that level, but that I still got the 15 free levels and still benefitted from my purchase even if I bought a heart to change that first level.

The fact that you knew you were being double billed to remove an arbitrary limitation doesnt change the fact that you are double billed to remove an arbitrary limitation.

tralfaz81

07-31-2014, 11:43 AM

Yours is just another whiny demand of entitlement. You want something shiny you see others have payed for and want it for nothing.

Iconic races are powerful, and they are balanced by having their first lvl predefined. Its a further pay for extra power perk to change that lvl out.

Its not complex, nor some logic puzzle to understand this. Pay up or shut up as the saying goes.

Pretty sure there was a way to make your point without being rude about it.

FranOhmsford

07-31-2014, 11:50 AM

Pretty sure there was a way to make your point without being rude about it.

You're talking to a guy who no longer plays the game {which he constantly states} yet still trolls the boards - What do you expect?

TrinityTurtle

07-31-2014, 12:01 PM

The fact that you knew you were being double billed to remove an arbitrary limitation doesnt change the fact that you are double billed to remove an arbitrary limitation.

Let me explain this more clearly. I was billed for characters with new racial abilities and the ability to stat at level 15, thereby skipping 14 levels of the game, with the understanding that the first class was locked in. And I have gotten a huge amount of use out of them as is with those levels in place. They were no unfit for use, there was no deception, I did not find they were magically unplayable after created and running characters with them.

That is not double billing, that is "This is the price for this, and how it works, do you want to pay it?"

Without some sort of lock, we would quickly be back to the days of nearly nothing but warforged on the servers. Because I clearly understand that I am in the majority that I actually LIKE the earlier levels and enjoy taking a break from doing the same collection of epics ad nauseum and doing something else for a bit.

I still think the best compromise is to take out the level AND the level 15 start then, and just make htem another character choice with no strong advantage without the balancing disadvantage of the locked level.

And I am being charged to overcome a game limitation, one I fully understood when I decided to click on that race, and weasel out of with the price of that second heart. This is NOT double billing, this is a price for two separate issues, despite being related to each other.

Chai

07-31-2014, 12:32 PM

Let me explain this more clearly. I was billed for characters with new racial abilities and the ability to stat at level 15, thereby skipping 14 levels of the game, with the understanding that the first class was locked in. And I have gotten a huge amount of use out of them as is with those levels in place. They were no unfit for use, there was no deception, I did not find they were magically unplayable after created and running characters with them.

That is not double billing, that is "This is the price for this, and how it works, do you want to pay it?"

Without some sort of lock, we would quickly be back to the days of nearly nothing but warforged on the servers. Because I clearly understand that I am in the majority that I actually LIKE the earlier levels and enjoy taking a break from doing the same collection of epics ad nauseum and doing something else for a bit.

I still think the best compromise is to take out the level AND the level 15 start then, and just make htem another character choice with no strong advantage without the balancing disadvantage of the locked level.

And I am being charged to overcome a game limitation, one I fully understood when I decided to click on that race, and weasel out of with the price of that second heart. This is NOT double billing, this is a price for two separate issues, despite being related to each other.

"The price for two separate issues" one being an artificial limitation put in place so they can charge people to remove it. It would be far more attractive if they sold the race with full building options.

Saying that the limitation NEEDS to be there, is bologna, because the ability to LR out of it does not make it a balance issue. To say there would need to be a compromise and they have to start at level 1 if they removed the limitation is also bologna, as these are pay to play racees as it is, for everyone, VIP and Premium alike.

I wonder how many more people would buy iconics if they know there wasnt a restriction on what they can build due to the arbitrary artificial limitation that is put into place that someone must pay to remove if they want tobuild 3 other classes, IN ADDITION TO having to pay for the iconic in the first place, on a life by life basis. If the artificial limitation is a put off to the point where Turbine doesnt sell alot of these, would it be better for them to remove the artificial limitation and just sell the race?

The only thing they need to look at as far as the starting level is if starting at 15 actually accomplished what they set out to accomplish with it. If they did then keep it. If they did not, then have them start at level 1.

burningwind

07-31-2014, 12:51 PM

Because the Iconic base races are intentionally overpowered, and the balance on that is the fact that they're locked into a L1 class selection. You trade a little extra power for a little less flexibility. The whole reason you want to have unlocked Iconics is because they're fundamentally better than "base" races, but that's asking for all the benefits of a thing without any of their drawbacks, which of course isn't fair.

If you took away Bladeforged's 1 req Pal level, for instance, you'd have to take away their Recon SLA etc., and then you just have a Warforged. If you took away a PDK's 1 req Fighter level, you'd have to take away CHA-to-dmg and their special ABs, and then you just have a Human.

You might as well ask them to give Evasion to heavy armor characters. You have to make tradeoffs sometimes to gain certain things.

in another word ddo is p2p, if you pay money you can get heart of wood +1 to play this overpower build. is this your theory?

Oxarhamar

07-31-2014, 01:01 PM

I can /sign this.

WHAT Lore?

There is NO Lore
in D&D stating that Morninglords, Bladeforged etc. MUST start at Lvl 15!

There is however Lore stating that Drow MUST start at Lvl 4 or 5 {Menzoberranzen{sp} Box Set!}!

Morninglords get the +2 Int of Grey {Gold or Faerie} Elves - Who are known as Wizards and Knights NOT Clerics! {though possibly Paladins!}.

Mountain Dwarf would have been a far better option for an ICONIC Battle Cleric! {and the Devs could have added +2 Wis in here easily enough as there's lots of Fantasy Lore about Dwarves being Down to Earth as opposed to the flighty Elves!}.

I still can't get over Turbine re-using PDK models for Pirates in 3BC - Rather ruins the ICONIC Knight of Cormyr don't you think!

And Don't even get me started on Shadar-Kai!

In fact: Bladeforged are pretty much the ONLY truly ICONIC {Eberron wise} character Turbine gave us!

Change the Morninglord to give a Wizard lvl at Lvl 1.
Create a Dwarven Battle Cleric Iconic {with +2 Wis as well as +2 Con}.

And for goodness sake start work on the Little People Pack - Forest Gnomes or Svirfnebli {+wis and dex}, Eberron Gnomes {+int and con}, Kobolds {+cha and dex} and Goblin enemies!

we are not talking DnD lore we are talking the Lore of DDO created by turbine based loosely on d&d don't get the 2 confused.

Reusing models for different bits of games in common practice. Grab (insert mob here) change some colors on the skin boom brand new mobs. This is how games are have you played other games?

Kalimah

07-31-2014, 01:14 PM

Arbitrary double billing is arbitrary. If I pay for the iconic, Im not going to pay again on a per life basis for the "privilage" of removing an arbitrary first character level so I can build what I want. It is a punitive charge on a per life basis on something the player already paid for.

Heh Chai, the problem with that is that when you buy and iconic you also buy 1 level of a predefined race. That is not a penalty, it is a package. You can choose to alter the package in the same way that all other class alterations would be made.

Maybe you say semantics on this but I say that they were clear in what was being sold and that any semantics are those who are trying to bypass the class restrictions bound to this race.

burningwind

07-31-2014, 01:29 PM

"The price for two separate issues" one being an artificial limitation put in place so they can charge people to remove it. It would be far more attractive if they sold the race with full building options.

Saying that the limitation NEEDS to be there, is bologna, because the ability to LR out of it does not make it a balance issue. To say there would need to be a compromise and they have to start at level 1 if they removed the limitation is also bologna, as these are pay to play racees as it is, for everyone, VIP and Premium alike.

I wonder how many more people would buy iconics if they know there wasnt a restriction on what they can build due to the arbitrary artificial limitation that is put into place that someone must pay to remove if they want tobuild 3 other classes, IN ADDITION TO having to pay for the iconic in the first place, on a life by life basis. If the artificial limitation is a put off to the point where Turbine doesnt sell alot of these, would it be better for them to remove the artificial limitation and just sell the race?

The only thing they need to look at as far as the starting level is if starting at 15 actually accomplished what they set out to accomplish with it. If they did then keep it. If they did not, then have them start at level 1.

iconic aren't new, they have been out for years now.. at least it seem like a year long to me. who ever willing to pay for the lr +1 have likely already done so, there are little to no new player incoming, the old population are decaying each day.

so what would you prefer?? have turbine making this available, which will drawn new player as well as old player, increase sever popution thus more earning. and making the game more fun at the same time. or leave it as it, turbine might earn few thousand tp before the game close and we continue riding this sinking boat~~

p.s. some where i smell "i already bought that lr+1" so no one should have this feature for free... hope its just me.

Chai

07-31-2014, 01:33 PM

Heh Chai, the problem with that is that when you buy and iconic you also buy 1 level of a predefined race. That is not a penalty, it is a package. You can choose to alter the package in the same way that all other class alterations would be made.

Its a punitive limitation per life, on an already paid for race - and even if it was paid to circumvent this life it hits the user again next life.

Maybe you say semantics on this but I say that they were clear in what was being sold and that any semantics are those who are trying to bypass the class restrictions bound to this race.

There is no claim that they were not clear on what was being sold - only a request to change it to something more attractive so more people are willing to buy it.

burningwind

07-31-2014, 02:04 PM

Its a punitive limitation per life, on an already paid for race - and even if it was paid to circumvent this life it hits the user again next life.

There is no claim that they were not clear on what was being sold - only a request to change it to something more attractive so more people are willing to buy it.

1st vet are been sold, but they can only be use on first life

2nd it is like saying we sale this adventure dungeon, but once you buy it you need to pay fare to enter.

p.s. what kind of palyer are you, you care nothing about how to make game more fun, but always been talking about how this will make game company earning less.. sound like you enjoy your prestige?

FranOhmsford

07-31-2014, 03:34 PM

we are not talking DnD lore we are talking the Lore of DDO created by turbine based loosely on d&d don't get the 2 confused.

And you won't be able to find a single bit of "Lore" that states that Iconics have to start at Lvl 15!

Lore and Law are 2 different things!
And Turbine's Rules {Which frankly are more guidelines anyway as we know they turn a blind eye to people using the Lesser Hearts to lose that 1 level} DON'T = Lore!

Reusing models for different bits of games in common practice. Grab (insert mob here) change some colors on the skin boom brand new mobs. This is how games are have you played other games?

I don't give a Monkey's what other games do. DDO is NOT those games!

And I personally seriously dislike being taken out of the game seeing PDK Pirates!

Kalimah

07-31-2014, 04:00 PM

Its a punitive limitation per life, on an already paid for race - and even if it was paid to circumvent this life it hits the user again next life.

There is no claim that they were not clear on what was being sold - only a request to change it to something more attractive so more people are willing to buy it.

I got ya- you are looking to make it more attractive not pee on them for what they did. Im down with that..but honestly I don't have a problem with how they rolled it out as a packaged race/class deal. I enjoy them for what they are and if I have a guild that doesn't fit the criteria I just start at lvl 1. Its cool to have it as something "different" I guess.

But I do follow what you mean now.

Oxarhamar

07-31-2014, 05:04 PM

And you won't be able to find a single bit of "Lore" that states that Iconics have to start at Lvl 15!

Lore and Law are 2 different things!
And Turbine's Rules {Which frankly are more guidelines anyway as we know they turn a blind eye to people using the Lesser Hearts to lose that 1 level} DON'T = Lore!

I don't give a Monkey's what other games do. DDO is NOT those games!

And I personally seriously dislike being taken out of the game seeing PDK Pirates!

You might want to take a better look at Iconics lore of you think there is nothing supporting them starting at 15.

The ability to change the 1st level is in keeping with how ddo treats class level swapping with hearts.

Like it or not DDO has been reskining for a long time. Now they just have new models and they are using them.

Rixaen

07-31-2014, 06:41 PM

Pretty sure there was a way to make your point without being rude about it.

Oh I could have been more civil I cant deny, and had they posted in a less aggressive manner that reeked of entitlement I might have been far kinder or simply not bothered to respond at all.

A gentle word can sometimes be the best, and sometimes a harsh one is the only one that will be understood.

Rixaen

07-31-2014, 06:44 PM

You're talking to a guy who no longer plays the game {which he constantly states} yet still trolls the boards - What do you expect?

Troll now? Really? I mean I can be a real sterling archer class ****** more often then not no denying it. But I never speak falsehoods nor from anything other then my own opinion or personal experiences. While I can certainly be antagonistic I certainly dont think troll is very fair. I am no Teh Troll or even a bridge dweller on my best of days.

Im an Ice HOLE but not a troll!

droid327

07-31-2014, 07:39 PM

The fact that you knew you were being double billed to remove an arbitrary limitation doesnt change the fact that you are double billed to remove an arbitrary limitation.

Its not being double billed for anything. When you buy Iconics, you get exactly what you're told you get. A race with benefits *and* restrictions. There's no expectation that those restrictions would suddenly no longer apply - THAT is the only arbitrary thing here. You cant ask for a permanent unlock for Iconic classes, really, any more than you could ask for a permanent +2 Int and +2 Cha on Horcs - that's another premium race that has penalties as well as bonuses.

If I buy an annual pass for Disneyland, it comes with certain blackout days. I can buy an additional ticket if I want to go on one of those blackout days. But I cant just show up, wave the annual pass that I knew had blackout days, and say "Hey, you COULD just let me in. Its double billing to sell me an AP and then charge me to come in on blackout days. That's an arbitrary limitation that shouldnt apply, mainly because I don't want it to, even though I knew it would before I bought it".

If you want to unlock your Iconic, buy your one-day blackout ticket and get an LR+1. Or buy the Premium Annual Pass (VIP) and get an LR with your monthly TP allowance. Free LRs for VIPs is the only way I'd support even a backdoor way to permanent unlock for Iconics.

burningwind

07-31-2014, 07:46 PM

Its not being double billed for anything. When you buy Iconics, you get exactly what you're told you get. A race with benefits *and* restrictions. There's no expectation that those restrictions would suddenly no longer apply - THAT is the only arbitrary thing here. You cant ask for a permanent unlock for Iconic classes, really, any more than you could ask for a permanent +2 Int and +2 Cha on Horcs - that's another premium race that has penalties as well as bonuses.

If I buy an annual pass for Disneyland, it comes with certain blackout days. I can buy an additional ticket if I want to go on one of those blackout days. But I cant just show up, wave the annual pass that I knew had blackout days, and say "Hey, you COULD just let me in. Its double billing to sell me an AP and then charge me to come in on blackout days. That's an arbitrary limitation that shouldnt apply, mainly because I don't want it to, even though I knew it would before I bought it".

If you want to unlock your Iconic, buy your one-day blackout ticket and get an LR+1. Or buy the Premium Annual Pass (VIP) and get an LR with your monthly TP allowance. Free LRs for VIPs is the only way I'd support even a backdoor way to permanent unlock for Iconics.

?? so you are saying we need to spend 1195 TP to play a build. which worth almost 2 adventure pack, and this is the right price to maximize the potential of something we bought for 1295 tp??

if they removed tr, i might have agree with this, but spend a heart of wood every life? so you are saying to enjoy iconic we must spend 1195tp to unlock it, then pay 1295 tp every life.. and this is reasonable price by your standard?

btw lr +1 wood by all standard should be a way to change build or to make up a mistake made. they are not design to enable a build, or several hundred builds.

p.s. if you are so rich then donate few million to turbine so they could stop making this game p2w

Oxarhamar

07-31-2014, 08:07 PM

?? so you are saying we need to spend 1195 TP to play a build. which worth almost 2 adventure pack, and this is the right price to maximize the potential of something we bought for 1295 tp??

if they removed tr, i might have agree with this, but spend a heart of wood every life? so you are saying to enjoy iconic we must spend 1195tp to unlock it, then pay 1295 tp every life.. and this is reasonable price by your standard?

btw lr +1 wood by all standard should be a way to change build or to make up a mistake made. they are not design to enable a build, or several hundred builds.

p.s. if you are so rich then donate few million to turbine so they could stop making this game p2w

If your just going to TR either build around the required class or ignore it 1 LVL of a class is not seriously going to Cripple most builds.

burningwind

07-31-2014, 08:31 PM

If your just going to TR either build around the required class or ignore it 1 LVL of a class is not seriously going to Cripple most builds.

i only play for fun, i don't rush lifes. nor do i see any reason for anyone to do so. we are playing a games, and we should be allowed to play whatever we want to? right???

as they make change to the game, build will need to be change, and that means tr or lr. either way it means heart of wood from cash shop for iconic build. or did i miss something?

plus doing this will only harm the game, instead of making money. i doubt much people will buy more then 5 of these for the purpose of lr+1 out of that iconic class level. on the other hand there are no reason to buy new iconic, especially the cleric iconic. since it is useless unless you lr+1.

either way turbine will make similar profit and by doing this and player will get more build. so why not? if iconic are free of that iconic class level, i surely will get every other iconic out there, or upcoming~~ on the other hand ill not even consider it, since pdk + rogue + pal are pretty much all you need to rush lifes.

p.s. even if it would proven to reduce the profit, i believe it is reasonable to ask for this feature after everything else they put on sale. this game is purely p2w, and yet we need more population. i would even suggest give new player a free iconic so they could enjoy the mid game content directly.

Oxarhamar

07-31-2014, 09:54 PM

i only play for fun, i don't rush lifes. nor do i see any reason for anyone to do so. we are playing a games, and we should be allowed to play whatever we want to? right???

as they make change to the game, build will need to be change, and that means tr or lr. either way it means heart of wood from cash shop for iconic build. or did i miss something?

plus doing this will only harm the game, instead of making money. i doubt much people will buy more then 5 of these for the purpose of lr+1 out of that iconic class level. on the other hand there are no reason to buy new iconic, especially the cleric iconic. since it is useless unless you lr+1.

either way turbine will make similar profit and by doing this and player will get more build. so why not? if iconic are free of that iconic class level, i surely will get every other iconic out there, or upcoming~~ on the other hand ill not even consider it, since pdk + rogue + pal are pretty much all you need to rush lifes.

p.s. even if it would proven to reduce the profit, i believe it is reasonable to ask for this feature after everything else they put on sale. this game is purely p2w, and yet we need more population. i would even suggest give new player a free iconic so they could enjoy the mid game content directly.

ITR doesn't cost a thing if you earn your heart in game .

When turbine has made large enough changes to cripple players builds (enhancement pass) they have given us tools to change our builds.

It's you opinion that these builds are subpar with the 1 class level. In reality they function fine either as a pure with thier base class or multi-class just not absolutely optimized for EE. Although I've been running all my iconic lives without removing that level in EE without pause.

With the number of iconics I see in game with the first class removed I think turbine is doing fine on those heart sales.

burningwind

07-31-2014, 10:13 PM

ITR doesn't cost a thing if you earn your heart in game .

When turbine has made large enough changes to cripple players builds (enhancement pass) they have given us tools to change our builds.

It's you opinion that these builds are subpar with the 1 class level. In reality they function fine either as a pure with thier base class or multi-class just not absolutely optimized for EE. Although I've been running all my iconic lives without removing that level in EE without pause.

With the number of iconics I see in game with the first class removed I think turbine is doing fine on those heart sales.

itr does not, but itr does not remove the 1 forced iconic class level

true, i can build with that one level. or with different race. but what am talking about here is open up more option in character build. thus i have a reason to return and play some more. and perhaps spend some more money.

p.s. if you want to run ee you don't use iconic, you could, but they won't do you much good. also how many heart you have bought just to removed that 1 level??? i know many people in guilds who don't have iconic. i only know one person that buy lr+1 wood to try out a build. so how many have you bought? 100? 10000?

Oxarhamar

07-31-2014, 10:52 PM

itr does not, but itr does not remove the 1 forced iconic class level

true, i can build with that one level. or with different race. but what am talking about here is open up more option in character build. thus i have a reason to return and play some more. and perhaps spend some more money.

p.s. if you want to run ee you don't use iconic, you could, but they won't do you much good. also how many heart you have bought just to removed that 1 level??? i know many people in guilds who don't have iconic. i only know one person that buy lr+1 wood to try out a build. so how many have you bought? 100? 10000?

I run EE on any class or race no matter. Iconic Shadarkai Paladin sound EE capable? Was my last life easy enough.

I've been running exclusively Iconics since U20 for the most part in EE once I got the hang of it.

I used a +1 Heart once and bought zero it was something I had lying around in the bank. (

I doubt that I am the type of player turbine expects to by hearts I earn everything I can in game and only buy perminate account upgrades, inventory scape etc... It's more likely they target the ottos box guys)

I just play with those levels they don't bother me one bit but' if you want to get rid of them to build an OP combo without the initial 1lcl then you've got to use a Heart.

droid327

07-31-2014, 11:31 PM

but what am talking about here is open up more option in character build. thus i have a reason to return and play some more.

The same could be said about *every* restriction on class builds. Why not remove alignment restrictions so you can multiclass Bard with Monk and Pally? Why not let *any* class have the option to start at L15 with a bunch of free gear? Why not let you choose one race's base stats, another race's enhancement tree, and a third race's innate bonuses? Why restrict you to only three classes? Why force you to take 5 levels of a class to use their T5 enhancements?

Hell, why have any opportunity cost or tradeoff at all? Sell bonus Action Points in the DDO store, sell Bonus Feats in the DDO store, so you could buy your way to a Dwarf with Halfling Dragonmarks, Human base stats for no penalties, at least one level in every class, fully maxed caster and ranged and melee feats, and enough AP to take every single enhancement in every single tree?

Oxarhamar

07-31-2014, 11:37 PM

The same could be said about *every* restriction on class builds. Why not remove alignment restrictions so you can multiclass Bard with Monk and Pally? Why not let *any* class have the option to start at L15 with a bunch of free gear? Why not let you choose one race's base stats, another race's enhancement tree, and a third race's innate bonuses? Why restrict you to only three classes? Why force you to take 5 levels of a class to use their T5 enhancements?

Hell, why have any opportunity cost or tradeoff at all? Sell bonus Action Points in the DDO store, sell Bonus Feats in the DDO store, so you could buy your way to a Dwarf with Halfling Dragonmarks, Human base stats for no penalties, at least one level in every class, fully maxed caster and ranged and melee feats, and enough AP to take every single enhancement in every single tree?

Think that quote is a little off.

I agree

Let my have a True Neutral Centered Kensei Battle Engineer.

burningwind

08-01-2014, 06:09 AM

I run EE on any class or race no matter. Iconic Shadarkai Paladin sound EE capable? Was my last life easy enough.

I've been running exclusively Iconics since U20 for the most part in EE once I got the hang of it.

I used a +1 Heart once and bought zero it was something I had lying around in the bank. (

I doubt that I am the type of player turbine expects to by hearts I earn everything I can in game and only buy perminate account upgrades, inventory scape etc... It's more likely they target the ottos box guys)

I just play with those levels they don't bother me one bit but' if you want to get rid of them to build an OP combo without the initial 1lcl then you've got to use a Heart.

iconic racial ability are mostly useless when it come to character build. with the exception of bladeforge which give reconstruct sla, and pdk cha to damag hit.

the cleric could make fine wiz if they give the option. but for now it is mostly used for quick lifes

and why must we use heart to remove that +1 classes? because turbine first did it this way, so it is curve on the stone. because you think so, so everyone must pay extra to use these build? so because of you the game do not deserve to be better, people don't deserve more choice??? they are selling so much, the sever is so god **** empty. you ought to start thinking about how to make this game better, so new player start pour in, else this game will shut down very soon.

p.s. am sure you have enough time to enjoy that one lr +1 heart you bought, when this game shut down.

The same could be said about *every* restriction on class builds. Why not remove alignment restrictions so you can multiclass Bard with Monk and Pally? Why not let *any* class have the option to start at L15 with a bunch of free gear? Why not let you choose one race's base stats, another race's enhancement tree, and a third race's innate bonuses? Why restrict you to only three classes? Why force you to take 5 levels of a class to use their T5 enhancements?

Hell, why have any opportunity cost or tradeoff at all? Sell bonus Action Points in the DDO store, sell Bonus Feats in the DDO store, so you could buy your way to a Dwarf with Halfling Dragonmarks, Human base stats for no penalties, at least one level in every class, fully maxed caster and ranged and melee feats, and enough AP to take every single enhancement in every single tree?

are you crazy?? these are written on the rule set, does the rule set says iconic must have 1 forced iconic level? and why this cannot be done?

Think that quote is a little off.

I agree

Let my have a True Neutral Centered Kensei Battle Engineer.

you guys are nut, it is like says if you lower the price of gas, you must also give away free cars.

this is a DND game, even though they don't follow the rule all the way, but the frame is still there. the rule says certain class have restriction of alignment, but it does not say iconic must be forced to have iconic level. even if they do, lr+1 already provide with means to do so.

p.s. if they add item in cash shop that allow you to have True Neutral Centered Kensei Battle Engineer, then you can as well ask for it. btw you can have True Neutral Centered Kensei Battle Engineer. neither kensei nor battle engineer require you to be in any specific alignment. and tier five fighter enhancement allow you to remain center in your focus weapon. period

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 06:45 AM

iconic racial ability are mostly useless when it come to character build. with the exception of bladeforge which give reconstruct sla, and pdk cha to damag hit.

the cleric could make fine wiz if they give the option. but for now it is mostly used for quick lifes

and why must we use heart to remove that +1 classes? because turbine first did it this way, so it is curve on the stone. because you think so, so everyone must pay extra to use these build? so because of you the game do not deserve to be better, people don't deserve more choice??? they are selling so much, the sever is so god **** empty. you ought to start thinking about how to make this game better, so new player start pour in, else this game will shut down very soon.

p.s. am sure you have enough time to enjoy that one lr +1 heart you bought, when this game shut down.

are you crazy?? these are written on the rule set, does the rule set says iconic must have 1 forced iconic level? and why this cannot be done?

you guys are nut, it is like says if you lower the price of gas, you must also give away free cars.

this is a DND game, even though they don't follow the rule all the way, but the frame is still there. the rule says certain class have restriction of alignment, but it does not say iconic must be forced to have iconic level. even if they do, lr+1 already provide with means to do so.

p.s. if they add item in cash shop that allow you to have True Neutral Centered Kensei Battle Engineer, then you can as well ask for it. btw you can have True Neutral Centered Kensei Battle Engineer. neither kensei nor battle engineer require you to be in any specific alignment. and tier five fighter enhancement allow you to remain center in your focus weapon. period

Your not seeing the full build potential of Iconics if the only benefits you think there are is Recon SLA & PDK Cha to damage. Iconics are much more but, just like any other class or race its up to the player to bring them to their full potential. Removing the level optional.

Your not reading those that you quote. I said I used one +1 heart that I did not purchase. Hearts are available in game though rare I happened to have one laying around.

The rules about Iconic are set by turbine the have the trade off of more powerful stat bonuses and some racial abilities while starting at lvl 15.

You can not have a True Neutral Centered Kensei Battle Engineer. A Kensei could be Centered without monk levels but, there is little point to being centered without Monk levels a Centered Kensei implies Monk and a Battle Enginieer could use Bastards swrods to stay centered but, could not use a Rune Arm or Crossbow and stay Centered. This is a build not possible in the game due to alignments and restictions with no way to bypass it.

This is a game based on DnD and the rules of the game are that you must take the 1st level in class of iconic. It is also within the rules to use a +1heart to change a class level once it has been taken.

Chai

08-01-2014, 07:13 AM

This is a game based on DnD and the rules of the game are that you must take the 1st level in class of iconic. It is also within the rules to use a +1heart to change a class level once it has been taken.

That's a DDO rule not a D&D rule. Its also less attractive as a selling point. People are asked to pay for iconics knowing they will have to pay again to remove the level if they don't want to build that class into the character, each time they ITR. If someone likes epics more than heroics and wants to use iconics to build multiple past lives onto their character, it is more limited now than it would be if they removed the level restriction.

How many more of these would they sell if it was a single pay to unlock race with no arbitrary first level.

morkahn82

08-01-2014, 07:20 AM

please consider making them base race, and not forcing first level of their base class. ty

p.s. or give out a +1 heart of wood every life when you are on iconic...

make the level obligatory (without ability to exchange it for hearts) or remove it. It either is requirement or not. This mechanic in between is just chicanery, bad design in terms of user-friendlyness and hidden p2w, since you need an additional heart each time to unleash the full power of the race.

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 08:00 AM

That's a DDO rule not a D&D rule. Its also less attractive as a selling point. People are asked to pay for iconics knowing they will have to pay again to remove the level if they don't want to build that class into the character, each time they ITR. If someone likes epics more than heroics and wants to use iconics to build multiple past lives onto their character, it is more limited now than it would be if they removed the level restriction.

How many more of these would they sell if it was a single pay to unlock race with no arbitrary first level.

As I said in the thread already I'm doing ITR to pick up past lives and I have not used Hearts to remove the required class level.

Its just not necessary for ITR.

For a final build say a DC Wizard on a Mordinglord yeah you 'd want to remove the level but, for a TR life its not needed at all.

droid327

08-01-2014, 08:03 AM

How many more of these would they sell if it was a single pay to unlock race with no arbitrary first level.

Why not just sell PLs directly then, cut out the middleman? You could charge more for a PL than for a LR+1 heart, and people would buy them all at once rather than waiting till they ITR. If the goal is to give people complete "flexibility" if they pay enough, why not just skip straight to the part where you have all the PL feats you want and your character is "done"?

burningwind

08-01-2014, 08:10 AM

As I said in the thread already I'm doing ITR to pick up past lives and I have not used Hearts to remove the required class level.

Its just not necessary for ITR.

For a final build say a DC Wizard on a Mordinglord yeah you 'd want to remove the level but, for a TR life its not needed at all.

everything you said can be sum into two sentence

1)turbine must have more item for sale, they must make more money, and this game do not need to be better. we are player do not deserve a good game, all we deserve to be is pay machine.

2)i do not need it, i do not require it. so no one shall have it.

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 08:19 AM

itr does not, but itr does not remove the 1 forced iconic class level

true, i can build with that one level. or with different race. but what am talking about here is open up more option in character build. thus i have a reason to return and play some more. and perhaps spend some more money.

p.s. if you want to run ee you don't use iconic, you could, but they won't do you much good. also how many heart you have bought just to removed that 1 level??? i know many people in guilds who don't have iconic. i only know one person that buy lr+1 wood to try out a build. so how many have you bought? 100? 10000?

If your returning or remaining in the game is predicated on you being able to use iconic classes outside of the stated parameters of the class/race combinations (IE 1 level of xxx class for each iconic race) then you are not a customer that the company should be seeking to retain. It would appear that you are already out the door and are only looking to strong-arm the company to make concessions to you to keep you. This becomes a no-win cycle for any company who does that kind of thing. If you don't want to play because of something as trivial as that I would think the company line would be that it is probably best you find something else to do.

walkin_dude

08-01-2014, 08:33 AM

Chai

08-01-2014, 08:48 AM

burningwind

08-01-2014, 08:50 AM

If your returning or remaining in the game is predicated on you being able to use iconic classes outside of the stated parameters of the class/race combinations (IE 1 level of xxx class for each iconic race) then you are not a customer that the company should be seeking to retain. It would appear that you are already out the door and are only looking to strong-arm the company to make concessions to you to keep you. This becomes a no-win cycle for any company who does that kind of thing. If you don't want to play because of something as trivial as that I would think the company line would be that it is probably best you find something else to do.

well, i get both expansion pre order collector pack, i have spend another 400 till this far. i have been playing this game since the first day it went f2p. so am not the customer turbine want?

i bet you spend more then i, right? i don't mind spend money, but i do not p2w, nor do i spend money mindlessly

p.s. it sound like you know all about what kind of player turbine want, then why don't you fill up the sever. why don't you save this game from dying? what happens now have already been proven failure, so no change shall be done and the game shall die. (turbine are making all the change, the make etr easier as we demanded.. and good thing they are not people like you, else this game would die long times ago.)

Chai

08-01-2014, 08:51 AM

Why not just sell PLs directly then, cut out the middleman? You could charge more for a PL than for a LR+1 heart, and people would buy them all at once rather than waiting till they ITR. If the goal is to give people complete "flexibility" if they pay enough, why not just skip straight to the part where you have all the PL feats you want and your character is "done"?

They found out with heroic TR that the technicality of still having to farm a minor amount of Xp makes people think its not full on p2w.

They wouldnt be cutting out any middleman in that scenario. They would be cutting out having to play the game at all. That type of monetization has been attempted already to the tune of 30-50% attrition in headcount. Id rather see more options when playing, rather than paying to not play.

Chai

08-01-2014, 08:54 AM

If your returning or remaining in the game is predicated on you being able to use iconic classes outside of the stated parameters of the class/race combinations (IE 1 level of xxx class for each iconic race) then you are not a customer that the company should be seeking to retain. It would appear that you are already out the door and are only looking to strong-arm the company to make concessions to you to keep you. This becomes a no-win cycle for any company who does that kind of thing. If you don't want to play because of something as trivial as that I would think the company line would be that it is probably best you find something else to do.

The company should be seeking to retain all customers. Iconics allow people to HTR and play with the people who ETR. It would be more attractive to people considering buying the races if they could play them how they wanted without having to pay to unlock one required level after having already paid to unlock the race.

droid327

08-01-2014, 09:03 AM

Arbitrary restrictions that cause people to need to pay to play how they want < allowing people to play how they want.

So, again, you're for P2W permanent unlock for class alignment restrictions, for P2W bonus feats and bonus APs and all those other things I mentioned? How are those not also arbitrary restrictions limiting people from playing how they want to? Or are you just for giving that all away, since you shouldn't "have to pay" to remove whatever limits you don't like?

I want to play a Bard/Monk with enough APs to max out Ninja Spy and Swash and Spellsinger and pick up some Warchanter. Why shouldn't I be allowed to play that character? In for a penny, in for a pound...

You're rejecting the entire concept of balance. Players are going to "want to play" the most powerful, Mary Sue characters they're allowed to. Its the job of Turbine as game producers to enforce reasonable limitations to make sure that the game stays fun and fair, to protect players from themselves, and ensure that there's enough challenge that the game is fun to play. God Mode doesn't keep people logging back in, but everything short of God Mode is ultimately an "arbitrary" limitation.

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:04 AM

well, i get both expansion pre order collector pack, i have spend another 400 till this far. i have been playing this game since the first day it went f2p. so am not the customer turbine want?

i bet you spend more then i, right? i don't mind spend money, but i do not p2w, nor do i spend money mindlessly

p.s. it sound like you know all about what kind of player turbine want, then why don't you fill up the sever. why don't you save this game from dying? what happens now have already been proven failure, so no change shall be done and the game shall die. (turbine are making all the change, the make etr easier as we demanded.. and good thing they are not people like you, else this game would die long times ago.)

PS I am not demanding things be changed to how I think they should in order to stay. If you are done playing the game then go. If not, by all means please stay and play with us.

burningwind

08-01-2014, 09:06 AM

PS I am not demanding things be changed to how I think they should in order to stay. If you are done playing the game then go. If not, by all means please stay and play with us.

this is a suggestion threat, not a demand threat. i do not demand turbine to do exactly how i imagine, am just saying this will benefit everyone include turbine. and all you are saying is "this is good to have, but people must pay for them like i do".

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:06 AM

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:08 AM

this is a suggestion threat, not a demand threat. i do not demand turbine to do exactly how i imagine, am just saying this will benefit everyone include turbine. and all you are saying is "this is good to have, but people must pay for them like i do".

Hey in that case I am totally misunderstanding your prior statements. They sure seem to be saying that you deserve a change because you are a customer. Not that you believe it would make a better product if they did the change you propose.

Maybe its just in your strong wording that makes that come across as your position on it.

Hey, im all for asking for a change. But the idea we deserve this change for some reason is not logical.

burningwind

08-01-2014, 09:11 AM

Hey in that case I am totally misunderstanding your prior statements. They sure seem to be saying that you deserve a change because you are a customer. Not that you believe it would make a better product if they did the change you propose.

Maybe its just in your strong wording that makes that come across as your position on it.

Hey, im all for asking for a change. But the idea we deserve this change for some reason is not logical.

so you believe people should all buy lr +1 to have the prestige to fully customize their iconic character? give me one reason this must be the case, other then "turbine must sale everything" and "i don't need it, so no one should"

The "I'll take my ball and go home" attitude isn't one that should be rewarded. If you propose a change then do so, don't attempt strong armed tactics to attain concessions clearly outside of the stated description of merchandise. You bought your expansion or you bought the iconic class. You got EXACTLY what you paid for and the product peforms to the description. There is no room in this for strong arming. If you would like to do something other ask for it..but the attitude of "you owe me this" is just wrong.

turbine do owe us this much.. many of the thing we bought are nothing like they were told before sale. for example the wizard hat that come with the second expansion, the demonstration image clearly shows a white hair lady with the hat on, but in reality once you have the hat on all your hair will be removed. so in another word the demonstration picture is a fake, and turbine are lying to us.

as for iconic, no one knows it would function this way, and before ietr was introduce it was widely believe that once you ietr you could get rid of that forced iconic class level. but this is not the case. we don't mind spending, or work hard. but we do not enjoy spending to have a race unlock everytimes we play it.

p.s. not to mentioned many of the thing we bought are bugged, broken. and they never get fixed.. no one listen, no one care.. poor customer service is one of the reason why people are leaving.

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:16 AM

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:18 AM

turbine do owe us this much.. many of the thing we bought are nothing like they were told before sale. for example the wizard hat that come with the second expansion, the demonstration image clearly shows a white hair lady with the hat on, but in reality once you have the hat on all your hair will be removed. so in another word the demonstration picture is a fake, and turbine are lying to us.

This statement makes it clear we have a fundamental disagreement on what is an acceptable practice by a gaming company. It is all good, you do your thing and I'll do mine :)

burningwind

08-01-2014, 09:19 AM

I believe I can fly.

No that's not right. I believe what was sold to me on day one (which I purchased and have enjoyed while staying within the bounds of the pre-stated limitations of the Iconic races):

All start in special locations and are given enough XP to level to 15 (1,050,000 XP).
Are Race/Class combos with new racial abilities.
However, only 1st class level is forced to take in this creation process. So, they can either; take a predefined path,
or customize their levels,
or reject training to train normally in a public instance (including multiclassing options), to level 15.

Receive their own set of starter equipment.
Can travel between Forgotten Realms and Eberron from the character selection screen, without purchasing the Hall of Heroes Passport account upgrade.

Four Iconic Hero options are planned to be released, the first already available for those who pre-order the expansion.
Bladeforged (Paladin)
Morninglord (Cleric)
Purple Dragon Knight (Cormyrean Fighter)
Shadar-kai Assassin (Rogue from the plane of Shadow)

If you choose to believe otherwise then...I would not call that belief I would call it HOPE.

If you want to play an iconic class, pick a build that fits the guidelines. Why is that so difficult to do? Why is that wrong? How is that a money grab?

I understand you want it otherwise. But...there are a hell of a lot of things in this game I want to be different. But that doesn't change reality and me demanding they be changed to suite my preferences is not only illogical but self serving.

lesser heart of wood are introduce for people to make a mistake or want to rebuild their character. they are not introduce to unlock specific builds. now you are saying that it is ok for turbine to introduce build that everytime you play you have to pay 10 dollars. (1295 for +1 heart of wood, which is bit more then 10 dollars actually)

This statement makes it clear we have a fundamental disagreement on what is an acceptable practice by a gaming company. It is all good, you do your thing and I'll do mine :)

so do you think it is right for turbine to upload a fake image of the product to lure customer, then turn out to be something else? you think it is right for any company to do this?

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:25 AM

burningwind

08-01-2014, 09:32 AM

No sir, what Im saying is that my purchase was EXACTLY what was described. And the picture thing....what can you say to that? I never once saw a "fake picture" of anything. But like I said, by all means continue your crusade.

Onward brave one!!! Bring the bully to his knees. One thing I think you should push for...when I LFH or LFB I never find any.

the official version
http://www.ddo.com/en/shadowfell/images/hovers/wizards-matching-hats.jpg
http://www.ddo.com/en/shadowfell/images/hovers/wizards-matching-hats2.jpg
official link: http://www.ddo.com/en/shadowfell/

the real version
http://www.gamergeoff.com/images/2013-05/shadowfall%20cosmetics%20hat.png

as for iconic: https://www.ddo.com/en/articles/u18-iconics-developer-diary why don't you search here to find clue that says you need lr+1 to remove the iconic class, either no one can do it, or allow everyone to do it.

p.s. i have this hat if you want to see on sarlona. i also have an elf with exact hair style/color wearing this hat if you want to see.

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:40 AM

Hah yeah man I have that hat too, in one of my bank toon's inventory growing moss with all the other useless stuff I get from time to time :D

Hell I dint meant to imply you should quit the game- I was only jawing with you a bit to see if we could move closer to each other's opinions on it. We are going to have to agree we don't agree in this one.

Hopefully we'd get to quest together sometimes- on different servers of course but if you ever play Cannith give me a shout.

Chai

08-01-2014, 09:40 AM

The "I'll take my ball and go home" attitude isn't one that should be rewarded. If you propose a change then do so, don't attempt strong armed tactics to attain concessions clearly outside of the stated description of merchandise. You bought your expansion or you bought the iconic class. You got EXACTLY what you paid for and the product peforms to the description. There is no room in this for strong arming. If you would like to do something other ask for it..but the attitude of "you owe me this" is just wrong.

No, you are wrong, im not contesting people are getting what they paid for. Im requesting they make this specific product more appealing to the customers who play in epic levels, so more people will partake.

There is no "ill take my ball and go home" attitude here. There is no "you owe me this" attitude either. You wont see me claiming either of those things. What im seeing here is you want to disagree, but have no way to refute a perfectly good customer suggestion, so you have to strawman some kind of personal fault out of it where none exists.

If you disagree, read the actual suggestion objectively, and tell us why, objectively, why its not a good suggestion.

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:42 AM

Yep Im down with a suggestion for change Chai..totally no problem with that. My only gripe was the impression I was getting was that we are OWED this change for some reason.

Honestly I don't think it would be a good idea to completely unleash the Iconics from that 1 lvl class restriction. They are already very powerful and we already have problems with some of our classes being over the top. I think this is a can of worms best left closed.

But hey, im down with ASKING for a change :)

burningwind

08-01-2014, 09:45 AM

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 09:50 AM

Cool deal man give me a shout!

TrinityTurtle

08-01-2014, 10:58 AM

The company should be seeking to retain all customers. Iconics allow people to HTR and play with the people who ETR. It would be more attractive to people considering buying the races if they could play them how they wanted without having to pay to unlock one required level after having already paid to unlock the race.

Again, if they took out those free 15 levels, I would agree with you. But those levels make a HUGE difference. New players stay or go based not on the mechanics of a game, but on the community. On the people they meet and fun they have, mostly in groups while they are learning. Mechanics as a retention is an old player issue, whose already done it all multiple times and is bored anyway.

Now suddenly people could build anything they wanted and start at level 15 with no restrictions, well, the lower levels are already thing with people, this would make that problem much, much worse.

I come to this thread as a DM. I saw a person mention people should be allowed to play whatever they want, and as a dm, I can say this isn't completely true. Often what they want will destroy the game and the fun for the other players. DM"s in tabletops put limits and restrictions on players constantly, because we have to or the game destructs. IT's the same here, only Turbine has to deal with thousands at it's 'table'.

Sure they could sell iconics like hotcakes if they removed the restriction and it was like getting an endless reusable stone of experience. But the devs have to consider how that will affect the game as a whole, and new players which they want to attract. That's why the limitation isn't as arbitrary as Chai would have us believe. It's not as simple an issue as "I want this, give it to me' for game designers. Or dm's at the table either. So many factors come into play, not just the money on selling the iconics, but how it will hit the overall baseline including new players, otto's box sales, encouraging grouping at all levels like a lot of the playerbase is constantly asking for, etc. etc.

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 11:19 AM

everything you said can be sum into two sentence

1)turbine must have more item for sale, they must make more money, and this game do not need to be better. we are player do not deserve a good game, all we deserve to be is pay machine.

2)i do not need it, i do not require it. so no one shall have it.

The game is fine with Iconics the way they are. if turbine decided they are going to remove the level requirement that is up to them.

I don't need to use a heart to use Iconics in EE is an example that it is not needed to remove the level.

FranOhmsford

08-01-2014, 11:36 AM

wow i just restart on cannith, my sarlona guild all die out T_T friend all gone~~ whats your name on cannith ill be sure to message you next time i jump on.

FYI Kalimah has a number of his/her characters in the signature at the bottom of their posts.

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 11:36 AM

walkin_dude

08-01-2014, 11:39 AM

To me, the iconics are fine for a number of reasons:

1) It is not a secret or anything as to how they work.

2) Lore has been developed around them in-game.

3) A Bladeforged IS a paladin created by and for the lord of blades, for example

4) A Morninglord IS a cleric. It's the specific title given to elf clerics of a particular god.

5) Purple Dragon Knight ... well it doesn't seem unreasonable that the majority of knights would be fighters. Yes, any person can be knighted in exceptional circumstances. That seems to well reflect the idea that some folks LR+1 to take something else as the first level class.

6) There is a method for circumventing the standard rules for an iconic if you want to. It doesn't even require the use of real money, just TP that you can farm as you play the game. I saw someone mention that he doesn't like it that he needs a +1 lesser heart every day in order to play the way he wants to. I am baffled by that. Even if it is possible to cycle through lives that fast, and I guess it is if you have enough money, how is that remotely related to actually playing the game? No quests are involved, just consumables that I would imagine are mostly obtained via illicit means.

Eh, anyway, whatever ...

It's so depressing that people would rather dedicate reams and reams of text to complaining about what they can't do instead of enjoying what they can do. :(

FranOhmsford

08-01-2014, 12:09 PM

This

If Iconics stared at level 1 in any class with no XP that's fine

It's a trade off start at 15 1 class level locked in.

The problem is that that level is NOT locked in!

The Lesser Heart thing was NOT what Turbine were after! It was an exploit that got transferred into WAI when Turbine realised the player base would revolt if it was taken away!

When Iconics were released I don't recall one person on these forums or in-game stating that they were happy with that 1 required level! And I recall MANY complaints about the none D&Dness of such!

I was however pleased that I could create an Iconic at ANY level between 1 and 15 to run with newer players or friends at that level!
Even that's been taken away from us though!
The Devs didn't like it - no idea why as it gave vets an easy way to run with newer players!

Turbine's proclivities for moving further and further away from D&D rules have pushed a lot of people {players of long standing} into leaving this game - There are plenty of other games they can play but they were here because it was D&D!

I'm an exception because I never liked 3rd ed. plus in the first place - I have no affinity for a game that in my personal opinion is as far away from D&D as WoW or SW:ToR are!
BUT
Where I draw the line is Lore!
And D&D Lore is inviolable - Shadar-Kai are NOT Iconic, Morninglords are Nerfed Grey Elves which I would much rather see as a base option with their true stats {DDO wise - +2 Int/Dex & -2 Str/Con}, PDK is a Prestige Class NOT a Race!
Bladeforged is in fact the only truly Iconic Iconic we were given {And that only from an Eberron perspective!}.

Removing the forced base level is a suggestion that's gaining pace because the more obvious changes are seen as incredibly unlikely!
Turbine could remove the need for this suggestion very easily if they wanted to:
1) Change the base level on Morninglord to Wizard - A Cleric with 1 or 2 Wizard levels is far more appealing than the other way round!
2) New Morninglord gear tailored to Arcane Casters, New Morninglord Enhancements tailored to Arcane Casters!
3) Create a Mountain Dwarf Champion Iconic with +2 Wis and Con and base Cleric level!
4) Re-do Shadar-Kai gear to include: a +15 Search and Disable item!
5) Give Warforged {and Bladeforged obviously} a FREE Feat at Lvl 1 for Warforged Body Type!
6) Give PDK back the Human Feat at Lvl 1! {losing this isn't a problem for Fighters but for Paladins, Bards and FvSs it's a biggy!}.
7) Remove the requirement to level to 15 - As an option it's fine BUT as a requirement it's nasty for reasons outlined above!
8) Allow Iconics who choose to start at Lvl 1 with base {non-iconic} starter gear for their class to TR at Lvl 20!
9} Move Evasion from Monk 2 to Monk 5!
10) Make Manyshot and 10k Stars EXCLUSIVE from each other!

Yes the last two suggestions seemingly aren't to do with Iconics BUT they do affect Iconics due to the OP benefits of Splashing Monk - Pure Monk actually needs Buffing it's the splash that's the problem!
And a Rogue Splash is nowhere near as egregious as a Monk splash Lore-Wise - Even Paladins can benefit from Rogue like knowledge {Think Policeman!} though I wouldn't be averse to Rogues being required to be Non-Lawful! BUT A Monk Splash just turns every build into a Monk!

FranOhmsford

08-01-2014, 12:19 PM

To me, the iconics are fine for a number of reasons:

1) It is not a secret or anything as to how they work.

For a Newbie or Casual without lots of cash to spend it's pretty complicated and non-viable!

2) Lore has been developed around them in-game.

No it hasn't!

3) A Bladeforged IS a paladin created by and for the lord of blades, for example

Well OK Bladeforged - The only TRUE Iconic! - has Lore already in-game!

4) A Morninglord IS a cleric. It's the specific title given to elf clerics of a particular god.

So why did they choose to give them +2 Int?

Int is a DUMP stat for Clerics! Wis/Cha or even Str {Battle Clerics} would have been more realistic!

5) Purple Dragon Knight ... well it doesn't seem unreasonable that the majority of knights would be fighters. Yes, any person can be knighted in exceptional circumstances. That seems to well reflect the idea that some folks LR+1 to take something else as the first level class.

People who are Knighted tend to have done pretty well for themselves before-hand - The Fighter Level coming first doesn't reflect this!

Anyway - PDK is a Prestige NOT a Race or even a class!
Cormyr may be overwhelmingly Human but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for an Elf, a Dwarf, a Halfling, a Half-Elf or even a H-Orc to become a Purple Dragon Knight!

6) There is a method for circumventing the standard rules for an iconic if you want to. It doesn't even require the use of real money, just TP that you can farm as you play the game. I saw someone mention that he doesn't like it that he needs a +1 lesser heart every day in order to play the way he wants to. I am baffled by that. Even if it is possible to cycle through lives that fast, and I guess it is if you have enough money, how is that remotely related to actually playing the game? No quests are involved, just consumables that I would imagine are mostly obtained via illicit means.

Yes...People exaggerate and that's clearly what that person was doing BUT it doesn't change the fact that the Devs original intention was for that level to be locked in, Players found a way around that and the Devs realised there'd be open revolt if they didn't declare it WAI!

It's so depressing that people would rather dedicate reams and reams of text to complaining about what they can't do instead of enjoying what they can do. :(

That's people for you.

Personality types come into effect and Turbine cannot only cater to natural optimists!

burningwind

08-01-2014, 12:54 PM

The game is fine with Iconics the way they are. if turbine decided they are going to remove the level requirement that is up to them.

I don't need to use a heart to use Iconics in EE is an example that it is not needed to remove the level.

hmm but you just said you did use one... did you not? if you can customize however you want, would you not try out new build? wouldn't that increase game population? will that not encourage new player to come and stay? wouldn't that make the game better and turbine earning more? not to mentioned, if this have been done, then every new player will be recommend to get iconic or even the expansion. iconic will be one of the top buy, especially for new player who want to enjoy the game head on~~

for those who are not familiar with dnd they will start with basic package, but really people who don't know anything about dnd would rather play another game, the only reason i stay here and spend money is because this is the only true dnd mmo. neverwinter is ok, but isn't much related to dnd at all.. more like a normal book with a cover saying dnd

FYI Kalimah has a number of his/her characters in the signature at the bottom of their posts.

cool. just notice XD thx

Kalimah

08-01-2014, 12:56 PM

FYI Kalimah has a number of his/her characters in the signature at the bottom of their posts.

Thanks Fran, I missed that part of the question (reading comprehension fail hehe).

Chai

08-01-2014, 01:20 PM

Again, if they took out those free 15 levels, I would agree with you. But those levels make a HUGE difference. New players stay or go based not on the mechanics of a game, but on the community. On the people they meet and fun they have, mostly in groups while they are learning. Mechanics as a retention is an old player issue, whose already done it all multiple times and is bored anyway.

Now suddenly people could build anything they wanted and start at level 15 with no restrictions, well, the lower levels are already thing with people, this would make that problem much, much worse.

I come to this thread as a DM. I saw a person mention people should be allowed to play whatever they want, and as a dm, I can say this isn't completely true. Often what they want will destroy the game and the fun for the other players. DM"s in tabletops put limits and restrictions on players constantly, because we have to or the game destructs. IT's the same here, only Turbine has to deal with thousands at it's 'table'.

To me, starting at 15 and the restricted level 1 starting class are two different issues, not a trade off or part of the same issue..

The decision to make them start at level 1 should be based on the question: Are those free 15 levels accomplishing what Turbine set out to accomplish with them? If yes, then leave it starting at 15. If no, then have them start at level 1. Im fine with starting off at level 1, but not because of any falsely perceived balance issue which has already been far surpassed by ottos boxes.

Sure they could sell iconics like hotcakes if they removed the restriction and it was like getting an endless reusable stone of experience. But the devs have to consider how that will affect the game as a whole, and new players which they want to attract. That's why the limitation isn't as arbitrary as Chai would have us believe. It's not as simple an issue as "I want this, give it to me' for game designers. Or dm's at the table either. So many factors come into play, not just the money on selling the iconics, but how it will hit the overall baseline including new players, otto's box sales, encouraging grouping at all levels like a lot of the playerbase is constantly asking for, etc. etc.

If we want to fight the fight of not completely destroying game balance through selling stuff in the store, we will need a flux capacitor and 1.21 jiggawatts of power. That fight was already fought, lost, and the game moved on and still sells things that far more compromise game balance than iconics which start at level 15 with no first level restriction. Unrestricting the first level will not cause mass hysteria, cats and dogs to live together, or the apocolypse.

People can already build anything they want and start at level 19, and TR that toon at 20. Building anything they want and starting at level 15, but not being able to TR until 28 has already been trumped. Any claim that removing the restriction will damage game balance further than it has already been damaged, is false.

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 02:05 PM

hmm but you just said you did use one... did you not? if you can customize however you want, would you not try out new build? wouldn't that increase game population? will that not encourage new player to come and stay? wouldn't that make the game better and turbine earning more? not to mentioned, if this have been done, then every new player will be recommend to get iconic or even the expansion. iconic will be one of the top buy, especially for new player who want to enjoy the game head on~~

for those who are not familiar with dnd they will start with basic package, but really people who don't know anything about dnd would rather play another game, the only reason i stay here and spend money is because this is the only true dnd mmo. neverwinter is ok, but isn't much related to dnd at all.. more like a normal book with a cover saying dnd

cool. just notice XD thx

I did say I used (ONE) +1heart on my first iconic life because, I had it sitting in my bank collecting dust.

I think I did about 5 ETRs with that built before I wanted to change it. Since I game done 8 more ETR & 5 ITR all on Iconics without removing the level.

I would never recommend a new player start at LVL 15 better to play thru the low levels learn the game first before having to jump into 15.

walkin_dude

08-01-2014, 02:21 PM

So why did they choose to give them +2 Int?

Int is a DUMP stat for Clerics! Wis/Cha or even Str {Battle Clerics} would have been more realistic!

Anyway - PDK is a Prestige NOT a Race or even a class!
Cormyr may be overwhelmingly Human but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for an Elf, a Dwarf, a Halfling, a Half-Elf or even a H-Orc to become a Purple Dragon Knight!

I would imagine it's +2 INT because in D&D that's what grey elves get?

As for your comment about PDK, I've seen where you said something similar in other posts. It's an iconic hero. Not an iconic race, or an iconic class, but an iconic hero. To me, that means a combination of race and class (like Bladeforged Paladin?).

Edit: to keep it strictly within D&D lore, how about "because the DM said so?"

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 03:09 PM

I would imagine it's +2 INT because in D&D that's what grey elves get?

As for your comment about PDK, I've seen where you said something similar in other posts. It's an iconic hero. Not an iconic race, or an iconic class, but an iconic hero. To me, that means a combination of race and class (like Bladeforged Paladin?).

Edit: to keep it strictly within D&D lore, how about "because the DM said so?"

Agreed our DM (Devs) have made it so

Turbine is licensed by WOTC to create our DDO rule set.

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 04:19 PM

The problem is that that level is NOT locked in!

The Lesser Heart thing was NOT what Turbine were after! It was an exploit that got transferred into WAI when Turbine realised the player base would revolt if it was taken away!

When Iconics were released I don't recall one person on these forums or in-game stating that they were happy with that 1 required level! And I recall MANY complaints about the none D&Dness of such!

I was however pleased that I could create an Iconic at ANY level between 1 and 15 to run with newer players or friends at that level!
Even that's been taken away from us though!
The Devs didn't like it - no idea why as it gave vets an easy way to run with newer players!

Turbine's proclivities for moving further and further away from D&D rules have pushed a lot of people {players of long standing} into leaving this game - There are plenty of other games they can play but they were here because it was D&D!

I'm an exception because I never liked 3rd ed. plus in the first place - I have no affinity for a game that in my personal opinion is as far away from D&D as WoW or SW:ToR are!
BUT
Where I draw the line is Lore!
And D&D Lore is inviolable - Shadar-Kai are NOT Iconic, Morninglords are Nerfed Grey Elves which I would much rather see as a base option with their true stats {DDO wise - +2 Int/Dex & -2 Str/Con}, PDK is a Prestige Class NOT a Race!
Bladeforged is in fact the only truly Iconic Iconic we were given {And that only from an Eberron perspective!}.

Removing the forced base level is a suggestion that's gaining pace because the more obvious changes are seen as incredibly unlikely!
Turbine could remove the need for this suggestion very easily if they wanted to:
1) Change the base level on Morninglord to Wizard - A Cleric with 1 or 2 Wizard levels is far more appealing than the other way round!
2) New Morninglord gear tailored to Arcane Casters, New Morninglord Enhancements tailored to Arcane Casters!
3) Create a Mountain Dwarf Champion Iconic with +2 Wis and Con and base Cleric level!
4) Re-do Shadar-Kai gear to include: a +15 Search and Disable item!
5) Give Warforged {and Bladeforged obviously} a FREE Feat at Lvl 1 for Warforged Body Type!
6) Give PDK back the Human Feat at Lvl 1! {losing this isn't a problem for Fighters but for Paladins, Bards and FvSs it's a biggy!}.
7) Remove the requirement to level to 15 - As an option it's fine BUT as a requirement it's nasty for reasons outlined above!
8) Allow Iconics who choose to start at Lvl 1 with base {non-iconic} starter gear for their class to TR at Lvl 20!
9} Move Evasion from Monk 2 to Monk 5!
10) Make Manyshot and 10k Stars EXCLUSIVE from each other!

Yes the last two suggestions seemingly aren't to do with Iconics BUT they do affect Iconics due to the OP benefits of Splashing Monk - Pure Monk actually needs Buffing it's the splash that's the problem!
And a Rogue Splash is nowhere near as egregious as a Monk splash Lore-Wise - Even Paladins can benefit from Rogue like knowledge {Think Policeman!} though I wouldn't be averse to Rogues being required to be Non-Lawful! BUT A Monk Splash just turns every build into a Monk!

Do be a sir and link the Dev Quote that it's not WAI then

TrinityTurtle

08-01-2014, 04:25 PM

To me, starting at 15 and the restricted level 1 starting class are two different issues, not a trade off or part of the same issue..

The decision to make them start at level 1 should be based on the question: Are those free 15 levels accomplishing what Turbine set out to accomplish with them? If yes, then leave it starting at 15. If no, then have them start at level 1. Im fine with starting off at level 1, but not because of any falsely perceived balance issue which has already been far surpassed by ottos boxes.

The intent was to get new players to the new, shiny content. Not to feed the tr's who want to skip the levels without buying the boxes. So no, taking them out would not accomplish what Turbine created them for. The only logical design reason for those levels IS to prevent them from becoming the new 'only way to play' and further widening the gap between new and older players. Of course people want them without the level, who wouldn't want an easy and endless tr completionist toon journey of only 13 levels with no caveats? But that doesn't negate that it will have effects on the game, that even otto's box can't really rival (other than the obvious fight club problems with the boxes).

Which, by the way, Otto's boxes aren't free either, and have a cash restriction. Different detail, same effect. I don't think we should give them out free like candy either.

If we want to fight the fight of not completely destroying game balance through selling stuff in the store, we will need a flux capacitor and 1.21 jiggawatts of power. That fight was already fought, lost, and the game moved on and still sells things that far more compromise game balance than iconics which start at level 15 with no first level restriction. Unrestricting the first level will not cause mass hysteria, cats and dogs to live together, or the apocolypse.

People can already build anything they want and start at level 19, and TR that toon at 20. Building anything they want and starting at level 15, but not being able to TR until 28 has already been trumped. Any claim that removing the restriction will damage game balance further than it has already been damaged, is false.

Nope, I'm completely okay with the store that is not my fight at all, Turbine is a business and needs to earn money to fulfill their responsibilities to their venders, employees, investers, etc. etc. However, this is not the same as an otto's box, which gives a single use stone (cheating aside) per charge, vs. a race that you have access to forever to rinse and repeat ad naseum. The effect would be MUCH greater than the box's, which is already a hot button debate in the community. And because it won't cause the apocalypse does not automatically mean it won't greatly harm the game.

Chai

08-01-2014, 04:49 PM

The intent was to get new players to the new, shiny content. Not to feed the tr's who want to skip the levels without buying the boxes. So no, taking them out would not accomplish what Turbine created them for. The only logical design reason for those levels IS to prevent them from becoming the new 'only way to play' and further widening the gap between new and older players. Of course people want them without the level, who wouldn't want an easy and endless tr completionist toon journey of only 13 levels with no caveats? But that doesn't negate that it will have effects on the game, that even otto's box can't really rival (other than the obvious fight club problems with the boxes).

Which, by the way, Otto's boxes aren't free either, and have a cash restriction. Different detail, same effect. I don't think we should give them out free like candy either.

Its not skilling levels, because the TR requirement is different (16-28 -vs- 1-20). Ottos boxes allow for skipping levels, as do vet 1 and 2, to meet the TR requirement. No one gets to skip levels for their TR on an iconic. They have to meet a different requirement.

DDO is still well beyond this point by degree, as far as the game balance discussion is concerned. Many of the same folks who attempt to bring up game balance as an excuse nowdays were fully supporting hand over fist those things which compromise game balance the most a few years ago up until now.

This does NOT widen the gap between new and older players. Iconics assist in bringing them together, because it allows for a new player to run a heroic past life in the same level ranges older players are running epic past lives in.

Nope, I'm completely okay with the store that is not my fight at all, Turbine is a business and needs to earn money to fulfill their responsibilities to their venders, employees, investers, etc. etc. However, this is not the same as an otto's box, which gives a single use stone (cheating aside) per charge, vs. a race that you have access to forever to rinse and repeat ad naseum. The effect would be MUCH greater than the box's, which is already a hot button debate in the community. And because it won't cause the apocalypse does not automatically mean it won't greatly harm the game.

The effect of bringing people with different goals together in the same level ranges would far outweigh any impact this supposedly has on game balance. And if youre OK with the store, youre already supporting the mechanic which compromises game balance on a paid basis far more than iconics do. The battle to fix those things which compromise game balance the most was already lost a few years ago. If you want to win that battle, youll need a delorian with flaming tire tracks behind it.

Iconics starting at leel 15 with a one level restriction requirement doesnt hurt game balance any more than iconics starting at level 15 without the level requirement. If you claim this is not true, the fact that someone can buy their way out of that level requirement already refutes any game balance concern the company might have, because if they were concerned about it, we wouldnt be able to pay to circumvent said game balance.

How many more iconic races could Turbine sell if they allowed people to build how they want on them sans the one level restriction. ~10 dollars as a punitive fee to remove that on something that is already bought and paid for makes it less attractive as a product someone will use and reuse long term. Turbine has already played their hand on allowing people to pay to circumvent game balance. This is no different, and not even remotely close to the largest impact.

FranOhmsford

08-01-2014, 05:02 PM

Do be a sir and link the Dev Quote that it's not WAI then

Yeah like I'm going to search through the entire Dev Tracker looking for a post you can't state is equivocal!

You're well aware that the Devs are very cagey about stating WAI or Exploit - However their original statements were also cagey - They were careful not to go one way or the other {and I believe we STILL have NEVER seen a statement saying that this is WAI!

I well recall the Reign of Madness issue though when multiple statements did go up saying that the Min Lvls were WAI - You won't be able to find those statements now though - I know because I looked when the Devs up and Nerfed the heck out of those items {oh and no I've never farmed Reign of Madness - Doing Acute Delirium or Sane Asylum multiple times is NOT my idea of FUN!}.
It would have been nice however to one day be able to get ONE or TWO of those RANDOM Rings!

Gremmlynn

08-01-2014, 05:09 PM

I don't give a Monkey's what other games do. DDO is NOT those games!

And I personally seriously dislike being taken out of the game seeing PDK Pirates!Me too. But I can say I prefer that to to seeing it in a game that costs more than I'm willing to pay to play it. As nobody seems to be making such a game, I'm guessing the entire industry doesn't see a demand for a top shelf game, at top shelf costs to play, and thus all make their games to be affordable to play. If there was a viable market for such a game, I'm sure it would be made as companies like Ferrari, Rolex, etc. seem to do well in other industries doing so.

Gremmlynn

08-01-2014, 05:22 PM

?? so you are saying we need to spend 1195 TP to play a build. which worth almost 2 adventure pack, and this is the right price to maximize the potential of something we bought for 1295 tp??

if they removed tr, i might have agree with this, but spend a heart of wood every life? so you are saying to enjoy iconic we must spend 1195tp to unlock it, then pay 1295 tp every life.. and this is reasonable price by your standard?

btw lr +1 wood by all standard should be a way to change build or to make up a mistake made. they are not design to enable a build, or several hundred builds.

p.s. if you are so rich then donate few million to turbine so they could stop making this game p2wIf it's not what you are looking for, or at least not at a cost you find tolerable, simply don't buy Iconics.

Yes, that is how Turbine feels they can make the most money from their product. That is, after all, the reason they are marketing it in the first place. The fact that you seem to desire such a thing, just shows there is demand for it.

FranOhmsford

08-01-2014, 05:22 PM

I would imagine it's +2 INT because in D&D that's what grey elves get?

Good luck finding any post by a Dev stating that Morninglords are Grey Elves - In fact it's been stated to the contrary {by players} on multiple occasions!
Morninglords are NOT Grey Elves - They should have been but Grey Elves get +Dex as well as Int AND -Str as well as Con!

Grey Elves are also well known in D&D Lore as Knights and Arcane Casters - Cleric is NOT their MAIN Class!

A simple change to making that Lvl 1 Class Wizard rather than Cleric and redoing the racial enhancements and Starter Gear would help a lot.
Giving them their +2 Dex and -2 Str back as well would be even better!
And No this wouldn't hurt standard Elves as the -2 Str is a pretty hefty penalty on top of -2 Con for ANY Class!
It would however provide more choice!

As for your comment about PDK, I've seen where you said something similar in other posts. It's an iconic hero. Not an iconic race, or an iconic class, but an iconic hero. To me, that means a combination of race and class (like Bladeforged Paladin?).

And again PDK fails on this: There's absolutely no reason why you can't have a non-human PDK!

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Purple_Dragon_knight - Sorry I can't find any mention of Human only just that you're a citizen of Cormyr {I'd assume Born & Raised but again Not specifically stated!}.

Morninglords fail too as Lathander Morninglord is a STANDARD Realms God NOT affiliated with any one race!

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Morninglord even shows a HALFLING Morninglord in the pic!

Shadar-Kai fails because this is a new RACE and frankly there's no more reason for them to be Rogues than any other class!

Bladeforged succeeds because this is something that ONLY a Warforged can be!

Iconic should mean Iconic!
And frankly the ONLY Iconic Turbine gave us that succeeds in ALL aspects of that is Bladeforged!

Edit: to keep it strictly within D&D lore, how about "because the DM said so?"

Sorry but we're talking actual worlds here {Toril and Eberron} NOT the DM's own!

Because the DM said so doesn't = Lore {Law yes but NOT Lore!}.

Shadar-Kai fulfil the requirement for a Human Iconic IF you're willing to overlook that they're actually an entirely new race - If you want Iconic Gith Pirates would have actually made more sense {Githyanki and Githzerai too if they weren't insanely OP!}.

I'd have much preferred to get a Dwarven Iconic - Champion or Battlerager
or an H-Orc Iconic - Sellsword
or a Halfling Iconic - Thief
than TWO Human Iconics neither of which are truly Iconic in any way!

FranOhmsford

08-01-2014, 05:25 PM

Me too. But I can say I prefer that to to seeing it in a game that costs more than I'm willing to pay to play it. As nobody seems to be making such a game, I'm guessing the entire industry doesn't see a demand for a top shelf game, at top shelf costs to play, and thus all make their games to be affordable to play. If there was a viable market for such a game, I'm sure it would be made as companies like Ferrari, Rolex, etc. seem to do well in other industries doing so.

Sorry but I didn't understand a word of that!

What's Top Shelf Games got to do with anything I said?

What's Price got to do with anything I said?

To seeing WHAT in a game that costs ANYTHING?

Are you sure you were replying to the right post?

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 06:21 PM

Yeah like I'm going to search through the entire Dev Tracker looking for a post you can't state is equivocal!

You're well aware that the Devs are very cagey about stating WAI or Exploit - However their original statements were also cagey - They were careful not to go one way or the other {and I believe we STILL have NEVER seen a statement saying that this is WAI!

I well recall the Reign of Madness issue though when multiple statements did go up saying that the Min Lvls were WAI - You won't be able to find those statements now though - I know because I looked when the Devs up and Nerfed the heck out of those items {oh and no I've never farmed Reign of Madness - Doing Acute Delirium or Sane Asylum multiple times is NOT my idea of FUN!}.
It would have been nice however to one day be able to get ONE or TWO of those RANDOM Rings!

You are the one who claims it was not WAI even an exploit lets see some proof.

I was there reading each and every post on the Dev tracker as I do each day on live & Lamania and I don't believe I would have missed that.

The rings the Devs initially said nothing about because that is there policy on exploits hush hush. Next step they cut them out of the loot table finally they fixed them them in the loot revamp and stated they were not WAI to begin with.

FranOhmsford

08-01-2014, 07:01 PM

You are the one who claims it was not WAI even an exploit lets see some proof.

I was there reading each and every post on the Dev tracker as I do each day on live & Lamania and I don't believe I would have missed that.

See below for your own knowledge of the Devs policy of being very quiet about exploits!

You know as well as I do that they didn't just come out and call it an exploit BUT look at what they did say and you'll realise that what we have now was not intended at all and is simply a happy coincidence which the Devs decided {for now} to keep rather than suffer open revolt!

The rings the Devs initially said nothing about because that is there policy on exploits hush hush. Next step they cut them out of the loot table finally they fixed them them in the loot revamp and stated they were not WAI to begin with.

No...I distinctly recall the Devs stating on these forums that those Rings were WAI - That they changed their minds on that and went back and removed all evidence of said statement does not mean it didn't happen!

Their statement AFTER the Nerf that it was not WAI to begin with actually proves my point as they would never have needed to make that statement had they not left it in for so long!
While it was in they never once came out and stated that it would be removed either! In fact the opposite was stated on multiple occasions!

P.S. Those Rings were the biggest reason to buy Reign of Madness - The actual named loot from said pack being pretty meh even before it got proxy nerfed to hell and back by MotU.
The Devs knew this and only took them out once the pack had dropped into "maybe I'll buy it after I've got all the must have packs" territory!

Nowadays that pack is down in the gutter with STK, Sharn Syndicate, Sorrowdusk, Restless Isles and Threnal!

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 07:22 PM

See below for your own knowledge of the Devs policy of being very quiet about exploits!

You know as well as I do that they didn't just come out and call it an exploit BUT look at what they did say and you'll realise that what we have now was not intended at all and is simply a happy coincidence which the Devs decided {for now} to keep rather than suffer open revolt!

No...I distinctly recall the Devs stating on these forums that those Rings were WAI - That they changed their minds on that and went back and removed all evidence of said statement does not mean it didn't happen!

Their statement AFTER the Nerf that it was not WAI to begin with actually proves my point as they would never have needed to make that statement had they not left it in for so long!
While it was in they never once came out and stated that it would be removed either! In fact the opposite was stated on multiple occasions!

P.S. Those Rings were the biggest reason to buy Reign of Madness - The actual named loot from said pack being pretty meh even before it got proxy nerfed to hell and back by MotU.
The Devs knew this and only took them out once the pack had dropped into "maybe I'll buy it after I've got all the must have packs" territory!

Nowadays that pack is down in the gutter with STK, Sharn Syndicate, Sorrowdusk, Restless Isles and Threnal!

again Devs said those rings WAI when they had no ML lets see some proof.

You like to state the Devs this or that but, back it with nothing.

FranOhmsford

08-01-2014, 07:39 PM

again Devs said those rings WAI when they had no ML lets see some proof.

You like to state the Devs this or that but, back it with nothing.

I've already stated that the "proof" you want was removed by the Devs - I looked for it when they made that inane statement that they were never WAI!

And no I don't make a habit of lying thank you very much!

If a whole year of the Devs being very quiet on the subject of those rings knowing that people were buying the pack just for said rings is not proof enough for you then I'm afraid nothing will be!

They did make statements when the pack came out and these forums were full of people talking about those rings and in NONE of those statements was their ANY intimation that they'd be removed!
In fact the opposite was stated - Those Rings were supposedly here to stay and a bonus to buying the pack!

The Devs went back on their word on Reign of Madness and I won't be at all surprised if they decided 6 months or a year from now to remove the ability to lesser res out of that 1st level!

Oxarhamar

08-01-2014, 07:47 PM

I've already stated that the "proof" you want was removed by the Devs - I looked for it when they made that inane statement that they were never WAI!

And no I don't make a habit of lying thank you very much!

If a whole year of the Devs being very quiet on the subject of those rings knowing that people were buying the pack just for said rings is not proof enough for you then I'm afraid nothing will be!

They did make statements when the pack came out and these forums were full of people talking about those rings and in NONE of those statements was their ANY intimation that they'd be removed!
In fact the opposite was stated - Those Rings were supposedly here to stay and a bonus to buying the pack!

The Devs went back on their word on Reign of Madness and I won't be at all surprised if they decided 6 months or a year from now to remove the ability to lesser res out of that 1st level!

Nonsence because, they never stated those rings were WAI.

You can bring all the Dev info you can't produce you want no one is buying.

Gremmlynn

08-01-2014, 08:38 PM

hmm but you just said you did use one... did you not? if you can customize however you want, would you not try out new build? wouldn't that increase game population? will that not encourage new player to come and stay? wouldn't that make the game better and turbine earning more? not to mentioned, if this have been done, then every new player will be recommend to get iconic or even the expansion. iconic will be one of the top buy, especially for new player who want to enjoy the game head on~~Personally, I think it would just lead to every other race to become obsolete, including some that they are also selling as "premium" races. It already seems to do so in some player circles.

Personally, I have less interest in playing a game were the only "good" races are human, elf or (mostly) robot than I do where every race has something, at least, going for it.

Not to mention a supposedly F2P game where the P2P races are so much better as to almost be playing another game.

Gremmlynn

08-01-2014, 09:14 PM

Sorry but I didn't understand a word of that!

What's Top Shelf Games got to do with anything I said?

What's Price got to do with anything I said?

To seeing WHAT in a game that costs ANYTHING?

Are you sure you were replying to the right post?Very much so when you complain about Turbine re-using artwork and the corresponding animations. You do realize they have to pay people to develop that don't you?

Gremmlynn

08-01-2014, 09:18 PM

Kipling

08-01-2014, 10:18 PM

burningwind

08-02-2014, 12:01 AM

Personally, I think it would just lead to every other race to become obsolete, including some that they are also selling as "premium" races. It already seems to do so in some player circles.

Personally, I have less interest in playing a game were the only "good" races are human, elf or (mostly) robot than I do where every race has something, at least, going for it.

Not to mention a supposedly F2P game where the P2P races are so much better as to almost be playing another game.

so you think iconic without the restrict level would be op? in another word ddo is p2w, and by allowing people to lr+1 out of the level turbine are actually selling cheat code?

p.s if this proof to be unbalance then perhaps i would ask for turbine to remove this feature. if this create unbalance then no one should be allow to cheat, even if they paid

In addition to all of the other benefits and options that come with iconics, you still want more. No one paid to unlock the race, they paid to unlock the race/class combo with 15 levels and equipment package and iconic path. They are quick start packages for Eveningstar, and the locked first level class is likely tied to the iconic path. Anyone who buys an iconic gets what they pay for. Unlocking the first level class is not part of the package, and it could lead to new players accidentally fouling their paths and getting frustrated.

hmm what make you think that? are you the one design iconic? did turbine announce that one level can only be removed with 1295 tp each time?? normally a race cost only 995 tp~~ so why is iconic so special?

as of new player fouling their path?? did you even read the title? turbine could add them as normal race which start at level 1, and tr at 20~~ this way people who want to pay to start at 15 can still lr+1, else they could still play the same build by starting at level 1.

p.s. please demonstrate the benefit of cleric iconic.. i still couldn't find any use for it..

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 02:39 AM

SNIP* Redundant

p.s. please demonstrate the benefit of cleric iconic.. i still couldn't find any use for it..

Play any class with a bit of self heals?

Favor soul Cleric split?

Clonk?

Artificer?

Arcane Archer?

Anything really...

walkin_dude

08-02-2014, 07:24 AM

Good luck finding any post by a Dev stating that Morninglords are Grey Elves - In fact it's been stated to the contrary {by players} on multiple occasions!
Morninglords are NOT Grey Elves - They should have been but Grey Elves get +Dex as well as Int AND -Str as well as Con!

Grey Elves are also well known in D&D Lore as Knights and Arcane Casters - Cleric is NOT their MAIN Class!

That really doesn't matter. We got some race/class combos offered to us as "iconic heroes." This isn't a statement saying that shadar kai can only be assassins, or that nobody except for shadar kai can be assassins. Shadar kai assassin was offered as an iconic hero archetype. Same with bladeforged paladin, etc.

A simple change to making that Lvl 1 Class Wizard rather than Cleric and redoing the racial enhancements and Starter Gear would help a lot.
Giving them their +2 Dex and -2 Str back as well would be even better!
And No this wouldn't hurt standard Elves as the -2 Str is a pretty hefty penalty on top of -2 Con for ANY Class!
It would however provide more choice!

So maybe a later iconic hero combination will be elf/mage of some type. For the ones we have now, morning lord is an elf/cleric deal. There is the option of making your morning lord a wizard instead of a cleric.

And again PDK fails on this: There's absolutely no reason why you can't have a non-human PDK!

Noone said anything about that. For this iconic hero combination, however, PDK is a human fighter. Also, I have not seen any non-human PDK in any part of DDO. It's been mentioned that D&D can be much more flexible than DDO. All it takes is a ruling by the DM to make some non-standard thing happen. For example, a player REALLY wants to play a drow elf in a setting where they are universally evil and corrupt, and after the player creates a good enough back-story for it, the DM allows him to. And now every third toon in the market has a name that is some variation on Drizzt as a result. In a computer game, you obviously don't have that kind of leeway. It'd be really great if we did, but current tech doesn't allow it. So decisions have to be made and then that is the way it is. But like I said, there is certainly the possibility that more iconic heroes can be added later. I certainly hope that happens.

I think you're getting hung up on the notion that an iconic race/class combo precludes other things, which it doesn't.

burningwind

08-02-2014, 07:51 AM

Play any class with a bit of self heals?

Favor soul Cleric split?

Clonk?

Artificer?

Arcane Archer?

Anything really...

and why would you use iconic cleric? just for the sake of starting at 15???? iconic cleric give int, which none of the build above need . plus none of the racial ability are any useful either.. if thats the case why don't you go pdk, which as a human give a bonus feat and don't punish your con score.

btw.. please explain your build. first cleric fvs split?? confusing why? artificer??? artificer with cleric level? with cure light wound? you find that any useful in end game? or you think artificer can't umd heal scroll?? arcane archer with sun elf? you mean without bow strength and elven dex to bow damage.. you would actually try this???(ranger level do grant you various of divine spell, should you go bow strength direction)

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 01:08 PM

and why would you use iconic cleric? just for the sake of starting at 15???? iconic cleric give int, which none of the build above need . plus none of the racial ability are any useful either.. if thats the case why don't you go pdk, which as a human give a bonus feat and don't punish your con score.

btw.. please explain your build. first cleric fvs split?? confusing why? artificer??? artificer with cleric level? with cure light wound? you find that any useful in end game? or you think artificer can't umd heal scroll?? arcane archer with sun elf? you mean without bow strength and elven dex to bow damage.. you would actually try this???(ranger level do grant you various of divine spell, should you go bow strength direction)

I am not here to built toons for you.

Cleric Fvs Sun elf gets light damage spell power & sunbolt SLA this can be devistating with this mix spec for it.

artificer is a no brainer Sun elf gets +to Int & Enhancements to Int while granting access to the arcane Archer tree. For slayer arrow. ( take a look in the Articfer Builds Forum.

For more fun Iconic Morninglord goodies take a look in the Iconic builds forum.

FranOhmsford

08-02-2014, 01:27 PM

I think you're getting hung up on the notion that an iconic race/class combo precludes other things, which it doesn't.

When you create an optional set of classes and call them Iconics they should be ICONIC!

And apart from Bladeforged Turbine really messed up with this!

There's absolutely nothing iconic about Morninglord Clerics, Shadar-Kai Rogues or PDK Fighters.

PDK SHOULD have been the 3rd Fighter Tree available to ALL races {even Warforged as DDO doesn't like to lock anybody out}.

Morninglords should have got the full Grey Elf stats and had Wizard locked in as 1st level!

Shadar-Kai I truly believe were only chosen because the Book of Vile Darkness Movie that came out at the same time had one as a main character!
I actually enjoyed that movie BUT that doesn't make Shadar-Kai ICONIC!

Now maybe we are stuck with what we've got BUT just maybe the Devs might accept that Morninglord specifically could be changed with little trouble to be a Wizard at Lvl 1 with Wizard Gear and New Racial Enhancements.
Yes we can make an 18 wiz/2 clr now or 19/1 and will still be able to make those splits with the change I suggest.
BUT
The Wizard Level being locked in opens up far more options than the Cleric level and synergises with the +2 Int!
AND
The Devs could then give us a TRUE Iconic Battle Cleric - The Dwarven Champion!

EDIT: Obviously any change should not affect current characters and should take effect only upon TR.

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 01:33 PM

When you create an optional set of classes and call them Iconics they should be ICONIC!

And apart from Bladeforged Turbine really messed up with this!

There's absolutely nothing iconic about Morninglord Clerics, Shadar-Kai Rogues or PDK Fighters.

PDK SHOULD have been the 3rd Fighter Tree available to ALL races {even Warforged as DDO doesn't like to lock anybody out}.

Morninglords should have got the full Grey Elf stats and had Wizard locked in as 1st level!

Shadar-Kai I truly believe were only chosen because the Book of Vile Darkness Movie that came out at the same time had one as a main character!
I actually enjoyed that movie BUT that doesn't make Shadar-Kai ICONIC!

Now maybe we are stuck with what we've got BUT just maybe the Devs might accept that Morninglord specifically could be changed with little trouble to be a Wizard at Lvl 1 with Wizard Gear and New Racial Enhancements.
Yes we can make an 18 wiz/2 clr now or 19/1 and will still be able to make those splits with the change I suggest.
BUT
The Wizard Level being locked in opens up far more options than the Cleric level and synergises with the +2 Int!
AND
The Devs could then give us a TRUE Iconic Battle Cleric - The Dwarven Champion!

EDIT: Obviously any change should not affect current characters and should take effect only upon TR.

Again your options based on D&D

this is DDO.

walkin_dude

08-02-2014, 01:35 PM

Yes we can make an 18 wiz/2 clr now or 19/1 and will still be able to make those splits with the change I suggest.
BUT
The Wizard Level being locked in opens up far more options than the Cleric level and synergises with the +2 Int!
AND
The Devs could then give us a TRUE Iconic Battle Cleric - The Dwarven Champion!

EDIT: Obviously any change should not affect current characters and should take effect only upon TR.

My preferred change would be to just enjoy the iconics we have, and then enjoy new ones that we get later.

Well, okay, I don't have to change anything for that to happen. :)

burningwind

08-02-2014, 02:43 PM

I am not here to built toons for you.

Cleric Fvs Sun elf gets light damage spell power & sunbolt SLA this can be devistating with this mix spec for it.

not really, 30 light power will not make much difference when you have atleast 500 light power at end game, plus your point are better up in the rs tree, that tree give 1.5 positive spell power per point and 0.5 for the rest.

light spell are only effecient on undead, there is no decent aoe light base spell like fire wall, ice storm or bb. as a cleric you should focus on bb or even destruction, but not light spells.

artificer is a no brainer Sun elf gets +to Int & Enhancements to Int while granting access to the arcane Archer tree. For slayer arrow. ( take a look in the Articfer Builds Forum.

For more fun Iconic Morninglord goodies take a look in the Iconic builds forum.

don't you know there is a race called drow?? dorw have +2 int + 2 cha +2 dex -2 con. way better choice if you are building fleshie artificer. plus the cleric level will do you no good, it is just waste of your casting ability and forfeit your capstone.

plus arty are best as wf~~ i would go bladeforge wf wich reconstruct sla, decent save and splash two level of monk for evasion and bonus feat.

also are you serious about the arcane archer??? sun elf do not get access to bow damage line, nor dex to bow damage enhancement.. so why would any arty go aa? even if you want to do it, wouldn't elf/helf make way better choice? (don't tell me you just want to start at 15 with half decent gear.. ) as of iconic sub forum it is mostly outdate info.. it might be useful if it were years ago...

p.s. neither of your build are anywhere close to viable in my standard, i don't play poor design build, especially when i have way better choice.

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 03:22 PM

not really, 30 light power will not make much difference when you have atleast 500 light power at end game, plus your point are better up in the rs tree, that tree give 1.5 positive spell power per point and 0.5 for the rest.

light spell are only effecient on undead, there is no decent aoe light base spell like fire wall, ice storm or bb. as a cleric you should focus on bb or even destruction, but not light spells.

don't you know there is a race called drow?? dorw have +2 int + 2 cha +2 dex -2 con. way better choice if you are building fleshie artificer. plus the cleric level will do you no good, it is just waste of your casting ability and forfeit your capstone.

plus arty are best as wf~~ i would go bladeforge wf wich reconstruct sla, decent save and splash two level of monk for evasion and bonus feat.

also are you serious about the arcane archer??? sun elf do not get access to bow damage line, nor dex to bow damage enhancement.. so why would any arty go aa? even if you want to do it, wouldn't elf/helf make way better choice? (don't tell me you just want to start at 15 with half decent gear.. ) as of iconic sub forum it is mostly outdate info.. it might be useful if it were years ago...

p.s. neither of your build are anywhere close to viable in my standard, i don't play poor design build, especially when i have way better choice.

Debateable sun bolt is effective on much more than undead and if your building for it you might max spell power. Not many things are immune to light damage.

take a read in the artificer forums before you disimiss sun elf they are one if the top Arti builds.

You don't fully understand Arcane Archer and Artifcer

Bladeforged Artificer is fine for self healing really it's not needed but, will never have maxed INT like sun elf.

drow Artificer for Capstone? Who said anything about casting honestly do some research on the Arti build forums there are a few types of Artificers than need no more than 6 levels in Arti and are completely EE viable. Pure Arti IMO are less viable with casing DCs falling short in EE rendering half of thier arsenal almost useless. Fine for EH but, EE casting and rune arms on a pure Arti fall short anyway.

subpar by your standards I haven't posted builds and all you have done is shown a lack of understanding of how builds like these would work in the game.

burningwind

08-02-2014, 03:30 PM

I am not here to built toons for you.

Cleric Fvs Sun elf gets light damage spell power & sunbolt SLA this can be devistating with this mix spec for it.

artificer is a no brainer Sun elf gets +to Int & Enhancements to Int while granting access to the arcane Archer tree. For slayer arrow. ( take a look in the Articfer Builds Forum.

For more fun Iconic Morninglord goodies take a look in the Iconic builds forum.

they do, but cleric have two casting tree, they have enough places to spend their action point rather then poorly done racial tree. as i said arcane archer is not tied to sun elf alone, they are also found on elf and helf which are both better option.

btw. slaying arrow work on xbow sound bug to me?? even if its not, its not worth taking, since slaying arrow is on t5, which require 50 point. who would dedicate their character just to use slaying arrow? and if just want slaying arrow you could go 18fvs 2 monk elf~~ faith silver flame, you be able to heal, dps, cast and slaying arrow~~~

max int possible??? and? you have 2 more int.. and you can do what?? you trading spell pen and casting level for it.. do you know that??? and if you are not casting type then int only means 1 damage. which is like nothing at end game~~

also what does sun blot have to do with iconic sun elf?? their racial does not grant them sun bolt sla.. if you don't know..

oh and one more thing, a build with only 6 or less level in artificer is not an artificer. it is a xxx with some artificer skill. unless you want to prove to me that you only need 6 level of artificer to get 70 dc bb doing full damage and viable in ee.

p.s. if you got something to say just say it, link to sub forum does not mean anything~~ if you want to proof sun elf are decent iconic, then proof it, if you can't.. well.. might want to stop here

let me add a few word.. i can do ee on any grimp build if you provide me with tome and gear. seriously run ee doesn't really mean it is a good build...

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 03:31 PM

Couple problems with Bladeforged

16 2 2 Arti Monk Paladin for saves and evasion

You don't get any boosts to INT so unless your a Juggy you ranged DPS will be low

You don't get anything out if the monk & Paly levels outside of saves, evasion & a feat

Better off going Rogue for Evasion then you get Mechanic tree & sneak attack and enhancements to INT

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 03:32 PM

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 03:35 PM

burningwind

08-02-2014, 03:42 PM

No matter the build Slaying Arrow with Fury is one of the top one shot damage boosts.

many Arty use it though I don't like it. I build for more sustainable DPS to high spikes with moderate I between.

slaying Arrow in not an imbue it's a ranged attack

Arrow of Slaying: Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +250 damage. (This damage can be multiplied by critical hits.) (Cost: 20 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds.)

i have one of these, but serious it is way more efficient if you build them into bow user.. i have a 18/2 fvs faith silverflame who is doing great dps with manyshot + slaying arrow +fotw

btw i have this toon right now if you want to see, am on sarlona~~

p.s. to use this build you will need to spend at least 46 point in racial + enhancement tree. that left you only 24 point if you don't take anything else on aa tree.. if you are building an xbow toon, this means failure.

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 03:50 PM

they do, but cleric have two casting tree, they have enough places to spend their action point rather then poorly done racial tree. as i said arcane archer is not tied to sun elf alone, they are also found on elf and helf which are both better option.

btw. slaying arrow work on xbow sound bug to me?? even if its not, its not worth taking, since slaying arrow is on t5, which require 50 point. who would dedicate their character just to use slaying arrow? and if just want slaying arrow you could go 18fvs 2 monk elf~~ faith silver flame, you be able to heal, dps, cast and slaying arrow~~~

max int possible??? and? you have 2 more int.. and you can do what?? you trading spell pen and casting level for it.. do you know that??? and if you are not casting type then int only means 1 damage. which is like nothing at end game~~

also what does sun blot have to do with iconic sun elf?? their racial does not grant them sun bolt sla.. if you don't know..

oh and one more thing, a build with only 6 or less level in artificer is not an artificer. it is a xxx with some artificer skill. unless you want to prove to me that you only need 6 level of artificer to get 70 dc bb doing full damage and viable in ee.

p.s. if you got something to say just say it, link to sub forum does not mean anything~~ if you want to proof sun elf are decent iconic, then proof it, if you can't.. well.. might want to stop here

let me add a few word.. i can do ee on any grimp build if you provide me with tome and gear. seriously run ee doesn't really mean it is a good build...

The general forum population would beg to differ with you on the levels of Artificer thing often calling any Rogue Mechaic with 2 levels of Arti an Artificer.

I agree with them since I am often a heavy multi class I don't limit my builds to the thinking that they are what class level they have.

The 6/6/8 TR Artificer build is a prime example it plays like an Artificer but earns you the past life of any other class.

burningwind

08-02-2014, 03:56 PM

The general forum population would beg to differ with you on the levels of Artificer thing often calling any Rogue Mechaic with 2 levels of Arti an Artificer.

I agree with them since I am often a heavy multi class I don't limit my builds to the thinking that they are what class level they have.

The 6/6/8 TR Artificer build is a prime example it plays like an Artificer but earns you the past life of any other class.

so have you come up with any viable sun elf build?? still waiting to fill that gap of my

p.s. 2 arty 18 rogue is an artificer??? hmmmmmmmm.....oh well there are no official names so you could call it whatever you want..

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 03:58 PM

i have one of these, but serious it is way more efficient if you build them into bow user.. i have a 18/2 fvs faith silverflame who is doing great dps with manyshot + slaying arrow +fotw

btw i have this toon right now if you want to see, am on sarlona~~

p.s. to use this build you will need to spend at least 46 point in racial + enhancement tree. that left you only 24 point if you don't take anything else on aa tree.. if you are building an xbow toon, this means failure.

24 points is the sweet spot in battle engineer

burningwind

08-02-2014, 04:07 PM

24 points is the sweet spot in battle engineer

are you are saying this build does better dps then bow user with manyshot + slaying shot + fotw and tons of bow relate ability, passive?

p.s. please allow me to remind you that longbow can be turn into ki weapon... and that means +1w from monk ed tier 1

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 04:14 PM

are you are saying this build does better dps then bow user with manyshot + slaying shot + fotw and tons of bow relate ability, passive?

No one ever said it was the best ranged DPS in the game but, they are viable EE and popular in the Arti communities.

I don't use slaying arrow on my builds but, I don't like it or Fury

I perfer Divine Crusader for more sustainable DPS

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 04:41 PM

so have you come up with any viable sun elf build?? still waiting to fill that gap of my

p.s. 2 arty 18 rogue is an artificer??? hmmmmmmmm.....oh well there are no official names so you could call it whatever you want..

Your not going to get one not because, they don't exist but, your going to argue this AP here and that AP there after already admitting you could take any gimp build into EE.

Players use different races for similar builds for whatever reason outside of min/max flavor prefrance doesn't make builds that are capable with Sun elf Clr not viable

Oxarhamar

08-02-2014, 04:50 PM

The problem is that that level is NOT locked in!

The Lesser Heart thing was NOT what Turbine were after! It was an exploit that got transferred into WAI when Turbine realised the player base would revolt if it was taken away!

When Iconics were released I don't recall one person on these forums or in-game stating that they were happy with that 1 required level! And I recall MANY complaints about the none D&Dness of such!

I was however pleased that I could create an Iconic at ANY level between 1 and 15 to run with newer players or friends at that level!
Even that's been taken away from us though!
The Devs didn't like it - no idea why as it gave vets an easy way to run with newer players!

Turbine's proclivities for moving further and further away from D&D rules have pushed a lot of people {players of long standing} into leaving this game - There are plenty of other games they can play but they were here because it was D&D!

I'm an exception because I never liked 3rd ed. plus in the first place - I have no affinity for a game that in my personal opinion is as far away from D&D as WoW or SW:ToR are!
BUT
Where I draw the line is Lore!
And D&D Lore is inviolable - Shadar-Kai are NOT Iconic, Morninglords are Nerfed Grey Elves which I would much rather see as a base option with their true stats {DDO wise - +2 Int/Dex & -2 Str/Con}, PDK is a Prestige Class NOT a Race!
Bladeforged is in fact the only truly Iconic Iconic we were given {And that only from an Eberron perspective!}.

Removing the forced base level is a suggestion that's gaining pace because the more obvious changes are seen as incredibly unlikely!
Turbine could remove the need for this suggestion very easily if they wanted to:
1) Change the base level on Morninglord to Wizard - A Cleric with 1 or 2 Wizard levels is far more appealing than the other way round!
2) New Morninglord gear tailored to Arcane Casters, New Morninglord Enhancements tailored to Arcane Casters!
3) Create a Mountain Dwarf Champion Iconic with +2 Wis and Con and base Cleric level!
4) Re-do Shadar-Kai gear to include: a +15 Search and Disable item!
5) Give Warforged {and Bladeforged obviously} a FREE Feat at Lvl 1 for Warforged Body Type!
6) Give PDK back the Human Feat at Lvl 1! {losing this isn't a problem for Fighters but for Paladins, Bards and FvSs it's a biggy!}.
7) Remove the requirement to level to 15 - As an option it's fine BUT as a requirement it's nasty for reasons outlined above!
8) Allow Iconics who choose to start at Lvl 1 with base {non-iconic} starter gear for their class to TR at Lvl 20!
9} Move Evasion from Monk 2 to Monk 5!
10) Make Manyshot and 10k Stars EXCLUSIVE from each other!

Yes the last two suggestions seemingly aren't to do with Iconics BUT they do affect Iconics due to the OP benefits of Splashing Monk - Pure Monk actually needs Buffing it's the splash that's the problem!
And a Rogue Splash is nowhere near as egregious as a Monk splash Lore-Wise - Even Paladins can benefit from Rogue like knowledge {Think Policeman!} though I wouldn't be averse to Rogues being required to be Non-Lawful! BUT A Monk Splash just turns every build into a Monk!

In one thread you argue remove the level requirement in another

Mountain Dwarf Champion

First level locked in as Cleric OR FvS.

Second level has reduced options of Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, Fighter, Cleric, FvS.

Wis +2, Con +2, Dex -2

You suggest a new iconic with 1st level locked and even more restrictions on multi classing

Make up your mind

burningwind

08-02-2014, 05:14 PM

Your not going to get one not because, they don't exist but, your going to argue this AP here and that AP there after already admitting you could take any gimp build into EE.

Players use different races for similar builds for whatever reason outside of min/max flavor prefrance doesn't make builds that are capable with Sun elf Clr not viable

well, can you argue that restrict 1 cleric level is wroth the extra int? for caster build you are losing spell pen and max casting level. for melee the extra int hardly means much... plus you lose one spot for multiclass.

i mean even you could prove that this build is better, i can always prove to you that build with another base will result in better result. so the question is still unanswered, is there any valid build with sun elf iconic?

p.s. forget to mentioned that the 1 restrict build in class level will also reduce the amount of spell point and known spell.

Tscheuss

08-02-2014, 05:22 PM

well, can you argue that restrict 1 cleric level is wroth the extra int? for caster build you are losing spell pen and max casting level. for melee the extra int hardly means much... plus you lose one spot for multiclass.

i mean even you could prove that this build is better, i can always prove to you that build with another base will result in better result. so the question is still unanswered, is there any valid build with sun elf iconic?

p.s. forget to mentioned that the 1 restrict build in class level will also reduce the amount of spell point and known spell.

He has already answered that question with a resounding 'Yes'. There are several valid builds with Sun Elf Iconic. Your personal likes and dislikes do not change that fact. Good night. :)