multiclass sucks! imho

[KingKoz]

With the past few updates, I have noticed a trend in questing. Maybe it is because I am an old school D&D player (started with Edition 1 rules) but in my opinion, multi-class toons suck! Here is my thought as to why......if you look at the lfms and quest alot, you know that everyone wants self-healing/sufficient (BYOH) toons. Multi-class allows players to be able to do that. But, it also means that there are no dedicated healers for the party members that may not be able to heal themselves as quickly as having a healer. A DPS toon is a good example. Those that run the newest raids, Temple of the Deathwyrm and Fire on Thunder Peak know those quests are DPS dependent. The more dps, the faster the mobs are dead, lowering the spawn rates and lag issues. A toon built for DPS can also have their healing capabilities but taking the time to stop and heal themselves during battle is not an efficient use of a toon (imho). Battle Clerics (again IMHO) have never been a viable option (not enough heals and not enough dps) until the last couple updates. So now, parties are nothing but heal thy self and some players become the brunt of the jokes from the party for dieing (some several times) during quests due to the fact they have to stop beating down a mob to keep themselves heal. What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

Koz

[Atremus]

Waiting for a healer was not fun. It is not fun for the healer either.

[Nayus]

This isn't really isn't how it went...

2~3 years ago, a normal pug wouldn't start without a healer. The pros/twinks/multiTRs were all playing their warforgeds and somehow keeping themselves alive but the normal folk couldn't play without a healer.

I understand that this is actually what you wanted for DDO but it led to a problem where a PUG would just sit in the harbor waiting 20~30 minutes for a healer. It led to a problem where a cleric/fvs simply did not want to join pugs, because it was too much work and because everyone absolutely threw their lives in his hands.

It was terrible.

[Powskier]

lack of healing for lesser toons is happening by player choice.I cant help but toss a heal to a party member smtimes;but i see players lettin the hurt player die often.Its so easy to toss a cocoon at a low hp party member.I'd like to thank team players that actually help each other.When I lead groups i want everyone to get to the end,not just the fastest/sickest builds,tough to control anothers party,so I dont go there.

[KingKoz]

Waiting for a healer was not fun. It is not fun for the healer either.

I have been playing DDO since 2/2008 and have spent alot of quests waiting for a healer to join and waiting for (hour+ for a healer to run the Shroud back in the day)

It is also not fun for the DPS out front to continually die due to the fact there is no dedicated healer or they have to stop swinging their weapon to heal themselves. Especially in end game raids/quests.

[Sarzor]

Fixing for readability:


With the past few updates, I have noticed a trend in questing. Maybe it is because I am an old school D&D player (started with Edition 1 rules) but in my opinion, multi-class toons suck!

Here is my thought as to why......if you look at the lfms and quest alot, you know that everyone wants self-healing/sufficient (BYOH) toons. Multi-class allows players to be able to do that. But, it also means that there are no dedicated healers for the party members that may not be able to heal themselves as quickly as having a healer.

A DPS toon is a good example. Those that run the newest raids, Temple of the Deathwyrm and Fire on Thunder Peak know those quests are DPS dependent. The more dps, the faster the mobs are dead, lowering the spawn rates and lag issues. A toon built for DPS can also have their healing capabilities but taking the time to stop and heal themselves during battle is not an efficient use of a toon (imho).

Battle Clerics (again IMHO) have never been a viable option (not enough heals and not enough dps) until the last couple updates. So now, parties are nothing but heal thy self and some players become the brunt of the jokes from the party for dieing (some several times) during quests due to the fact they have to stop beating down a mob to keep themselves heal.

What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

Koz

I can tell you have not been playing this game for long. Or you are a mana sponge.

Basically, at the beginning of the game, sure there was your ideal of healbots, etc. A long time ago (4-5 years) healbots decided they didn't like being healbots, and wanted to play the game and actually kill stuff instead of supporting a suicidal barbarian reaming them out for not healing them around a corner as they fought 500 mobs.

The next permutation was towards moderately self-healing toons, with some healing backup. Warpriests ruled the day here.

Next permutation: Everyone should bring their own heals, and if a healer is around, they'll help out. Now, what should someone do? They should build the strongest toon they can to say alive and contribute. Being dead is almost as little fun as healbotting. If a multiclass does that, then sure, they multiclass!

Besides, everyone in this game wants to be good. Multiclassing is the best way at current to do it. Five years ago, multiclassing wasn't as good, but that's how the game is designed. Going back to making melee not be able to heal themselves and relying on healbots won't fly. I've played healbots. They suck. I hate them. I would be long ago in another game if that was the expectation of me.

[blackdae]

Waiting for a healer was not fun. It is not fun for the healer either.

I had fun with my healer.. And even if sometimes people used to blame the healer for a wipe or a moment of crysis, I had my nice moments..

Now she's in the closet :(

[KingKoz]

lack of healing for lesser toons is happening by player choice.I cant help but toss a heal to a party member smtimes;but i see players lettin the hurt player die often.Its so easy to toss a cocoon at a low hp party member.I'd like to thank team players that actually help each other.When I lead groups i want everyone to get to the end,not just the fastest/sickest builds,tough to control anothers party,so I dont go there.

EXACTLY! then that person becomes the brunt of jokes for dieing all the time. Granted this is just a game, but to me it is no different than the playground bully pushing you down and laughing at you when you sliced your leg open. Everyone wants to do damage and nobody wants to heal. Back in the day, when SP pots were not easy to come by, I kind of understand Clerics/FVS being hesitant to join certain parties. SP pots were the issue. They weren't many to be found and the ones you could find cost alot of plat. Consequently, healers use to ***** at DPS for getting out of range from their heals and dieing. Healers acted as if they death was a reflection of their playing ability. As a DPS player, I'd get ****ed off when a healer would ***** at me for dieing and how it costs them alot to keep stocked with SP pots. Yes, it cost alot for SP pots, but the gear a DPS toon needs to get them through a quest costs alot as well. When I play my FVS toon, I used to get ****ed at myself if I let someone in the party die. THe way I see it, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon. Otherwise, HEAL!

[tralfaz81]

I actually agree with the OP but you've long since missed the boat. The debate raged and that side lost, adjust. You can actually make any class fairly self healing or self sufficient, it just takes a little work. Easiest route, play a human and pick up healing amp. With ship buffs that starts you out with 20% and you work your way up from there. You cut into some of your core abilities when it comes to gear, but its that or multiclass. Just think of staying pure class as a different type of challenge and have fun with building a slightly different toon.

[serthcore]

I understand your point, but i have experienced different things like there's so many ways of self heal right now, people prefer to rely on themselves instead of others, and since they changed the enhacements you can splash for more survivality/self healing without losing much dps. Oh, and most of the top EE speedruns are done with 12 self sufficient people.
Also cocoon has a very fast casting, consecration not only heals but does damage. Silver flame pots give some dps penalties and heal scrolls are somewhat slow though, but i still think that, as how the game evolved, 12 self suff toons is more reliable to get things done and fast.


Also: since when multiclassing means less dps in exchange of selfhealing? I'm not a math expert, but for example on a barb, splashing 1 fighter /1 fvs gives (i think) more dps than going pure.

[KingKoz]

Fixing for readability:



I can tell you have not been playing this game for long. Or you are a mana sponge.

Basically, at the beginning of the game, sure there was your ideal of healbots, etc. A long time ago (4-5 years) healbots decided they didn't like being healbots, and wanted to play the game and actually kill stuff instead of supporting a suicidal barbarian reaming them out for not healing them around a corner as they fought 500 mobs.

The next permutation was towards moderately self-healing toons, with some healing backup. Warpriests ruled the day here.

Next permutation: Everyone should bring their own heals, and if a healer is around, they'll help out. Now, what should someone do? They should build the strongest toon they can to say alive and contribute. Being dead is almost as little fun as healbotting. If a multiclass does that, then sure, they multiclass!

Besides, everyone in this game wants to be good. Multiclassing is the best way at current to do it. Five years ago, multiclassing wasn't as good, but that's how the game is designed. Going back to making melee not be able to heal themselves and relying on healbots won't fly. I've played healbots. They suck. I hate them. I would be long ago in another game if that was the expectation of me.

I have been playing DDO since 2008 and D&D since 1978 a few months after the game came out. When I started playing, multi-class toons were frowned upon by most DM's. There is a reason why toons quest as a group.....team work to complete a task. IMHO multiclassing is forcing the game away from teamwork and more towards I, I and I. Like I said in another post, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon.

[Ryiah]

What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

No, it disappeared when players decided they no longer preferred such a system. Blaming it on multi-classing is disingenuous when there are other games that lack multi-classing but have largely gone the same route.

[axel15810]

Rejuvination Cocoon changed the whole game. That's what happened.


Up until that point normal melee could only UMD heal scroll themselves which:

1) was hard to get the necessary UMD score
2) was interruptable and had a slow cast time

But after cocoon everybody could get self heals with almost no cost so there's no reason not to be self-healing. I personally think it's great to eliminate the need for a healer because lots of people don't like that, but I think turbine went too far in that a healers are not even helpful anymore. I think the self-healing options are too good and shouldn't rival what a healing class can offer - for example...they shouldn't heal you to full like reconstruct does or heal you to full after 5-10 seconds like cocoon does.

Cocoon should heal you slower than it does and BF reconstruct shouldn't be reconstruct...it should be repair serious. Or if you want to give reconstruct it should have limited uses per rest. But that ship has sailed so going forward this is what I recommend -

I think the big problem is that gaining self-healing has ZERO cost associated with it. You should have to give something up to get it. I think the only way to fix this is to give big incentives to go pure non-self healing melee. Perhaps provide a big buff to barbarian rage. Buff the barb/fighter capstones. Perhaps introduce an epic version of madstone boots that gives big bonuses to melee DPS but prevents spellcasting/scroll use. I really hope Turbine looks into this as it would make non-self healing melees viable again yet not penalize those who wish to build for self-sufficiency.

[serthcore]

No, it disappeared when players decided they no longer preferred such a system. Blaming it on multi-classing is disingenuous when there are other games that lack multi-classing but have largely gone the same route.

Yeah, exactly, i don't think that multiclassing had a very big impact on this

[TrinityTurtle]

Like I said in another post, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon.

They did. That's why a lot of the group kill counts are LED by the clerics and favored souls now.

[Nayus]

I have been playing DDO since 2/2008 and have spent alot of quests waiting for a healer to join and waiting for (hour+ for a healer to run the Shroud back in the day)

It is also not fun for the DPS out front to continually die due to the fact there is no dedicated healer or they have to stop swinging their weapon to heal themselves. Especially in end game raids/quests.

You don't need a dedicated healer for that, just tell whoever's available to throw a Coccoon or two.

Tell the raid leader and he might say this "Guys, Player X is a dedicated DPS toon so please keep your eyes in his lifebar" or assign 2~3 players to take care of you.

[janave]

Rejuvination Cocoon changed the whole game. That's what happened.


Up until that point normal melee could only UMD heal scroll themselves which:

1) was hard to get the necessary UMD score
2) was interruptable and had a slow cast time

But after cocoon everybody could get self heals with almost no cost so there's no reason not to be self-healing. I personally think it's great to eliminate the need for a healer because lots of people don't like that, but I think turbine went too far in that a healers are not even helpful anymore. I think the self-healing options are too good and shouldn't rival what a healing class can offer - for example...they shouldn't heal you to full like reconstruct does or heal you to full after 5-10 seconds like cocoon does.

Cocoon should heal you slower than it does and BF reconstruct shouldn't be reconstruct...it should be repair serious. Or if you want to give reconstruct it should have limited uses per rest. But that ship has sailed so going forward this is what I recommend -

I think the big problem is that gaining self-healing has ZERO cost associated with it. You should have to give something up to get it. I think the only way to fix this is to give big incentives to go pure non-self healing melee. Perhaps provide a big buff to barbarian rage. Buff the barb/fighter capstones. Perhaps introduce an epic version of madstone boots that gives big bonuses to melee DPS but prevents spellcasting/scroll use. I really hope Turbine looks into this as it would make non-self healing melees viable again yet not penalize those who wish to build for self-sufficiency.

Nah, way before cocoon people opted for self sufficiency.

Half elf cleric dilettante was not uncommon for pure fighters.
Palemasters (lets face it, part of the attraction is a pretty reliable selfheal)
Any warfoged arcane
Artificers
Rangers and Paladins could aim for some self healing
Halfling Dragon marks

There were options before, they were more "build" investments with steeper tradeoffs,
now getting ED twists is really a matter of "work", since everyone regardless of build can have access to them (if they unlock them by grinding xp).

I like the ability to rely on myself, even if that comes with some tradeoffs. Sure, I could twist in more DPS, or CC, or whatever is fun at the moment.

Healing is kinda like tanking, it still has its time and place, mostly in the top raids, some harder EE quests. For general questing, a healer is not really a necessity and thats not a bad thing.

I still throw a heal for anyone with low HPs if i can, yes even the other healers in the party, maybe they got CC-ed, knocked down or whatever.
I think whoever groups with others should prepare to be able to throw some heals.

In short: more options for healing, not less please.

[Chai]

What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

Not really. It died when the entire gaming industry strayed away from what is comonly called holy trinity style games. There are many games which do not even have multiclassing which do not use tank/healer/DPSer systems anymore.

D&D was always ahead of the curve on this, as the P&P game did not require holy trinity playstyle, since its roll out in the 70s.

[Amundir]

I started playing DDO during the trinity stage. Remember waiting for healers. I have to say sometimes I wish I could form a static group of class centric toons so we could focus on areas instead of generalists. However, even given that I guarentee you we'd all build for evasion most likely, which means multiclassing (Sure you can get it from ED, but who'se gonna wait that long).

The hardest part about playing DDO is understanding it doesn't have to correspond to D&D. It was a starting point, and is free to morph into whatever the developers think plays the best, provided it doesn't conflict with licensing restrictions.

EDIT: And 3.5E (at least) had favored classes for some races that allowed you to multiclass without the exp penalty once range got wide so it wasn't exactly multiclass unfriendly by that point.

[Dilbon]

5e rules have Second Wind for fighters, which is a self heal of some sort:

Second Wind
You have a limited well of stamina that you can draw on
to protect yourself from harm. On your turn, you can use
a bonus action to regain hit points equal to 1d10 + your
fighter level.
Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or
long rest before you can use it again.

That would help fighters and barbarians a lot in DDO too.

[cdemeritt]

I hate to break it to you, but even 1e had multiclassing. I even think it was allowed (but discouraged) in the Red Box.Basic set. Multiclassing is as much D&D as the succubus's skimpy outfits...... What I read, however, is not a problem with multiclassing, but with the fact many people no longer play they way you think they should, just like many melee no longer shield block at doorways and casters no longer drop like wet tissue paper if they get hit. Unfortunately, things change, people change, and what was fun, no longer is, so they change playstyles to suit their idea of fun.

[Bridge_Dweller]

It is also not fun for the DPS out front to continually die due to the fact there is no dedicated healer or they have to stop swinging their weapon to heal themselves. Especially in end game raids/quests.

Mayne build better toons? Just a thought.

[Bridge_Dweller]

I think the big problem is that gaining self-healing has ZERO cost associated with it. You should have to give something up to get it. I think the only way to fix this is to give big incentives to go pure non-self healing melee. Perhaps provide a big buff to barbarian rage. Buff the barb/fighter capstones. Perhaps introduce an epic version of madstone boots that gives big bonuses to melee DPS but prevents spellcasting/scroll use. I really hope Turbine looks into this as it would make non-self healing melees viable again yet not penalize those who wish to build for self-sufficiency.

To say "no cost" is not accurate. it still costs you a twist, need devotion and healing amp to work.

To say "great return on investment" is better

[Bridge_Dweller]

Not really. It died when the entire gaming industry strayed away from what is comonly called holy trinity style games. There are many games which do not even have multiclassing which do not use tank/healer/DPSer systems anymore.

D&D was always ahead of the curve on this, as the P&P game did not require holy trinity playstyle, since its roll out in the 70s.

The "trinity" was a very stupid dynamic. Glad it's dead.

[axel15810]

In short: more options for healing, not less please.

I'm all for more options, but my main point was that we should have an incentive to go non-self healing. It's true to DnD to have the classic trinity type game as a viable options. The "trinity" style should NOT be forced on everyone as it used to be, but it should be a viable alternative to those who wish to play that way.

I'm all for building for self-sufficiency but players shouldn't be forced to do it. Non-self healing should be a viable alternative.

As I said before, I'm not for nerfing self-healing but instead I'm for buffing "stupid DPS". Give us epic madstone boots, boost barb rage, boost barb capstone, ect. That way non-self healing would have better DPS to compensate for their lack of self-sufficiency.

And when cap was 20, most melee toons were not self-sufficient. Yes you have helf dilly and UMD scroll healing as an option, but it wasn't acessible to most casual players as it required a large investment and you could not get top tier melee DPS and self-healing at the same time.

I just want to get to a point where both building for self-healing and building for non-self healing both have fair tradeoffs.

I hate that you can get both top tier melee DPS and self-healing. I don't think it should work that way. That creates less options and eliminates the classic trinity gameplay style as a viable alternative.

[Kalimah]

I see as many pure healers now as I've ever seen. We seem to be flush with them in guild right now...maybe just cyclic and due to our personas and the way we all mix Im just missing it...but I'm missing the part that there are lack of healers now. I see more than enough of them out and about.

[TheGuyYouKnow]

multiclass and self healing have nothing to do with each other, anyone can put on an sp item and twist cocoon.
people multiclass for more damage or survivability

[Gremmlynn]

I have been playing DDO since 2/2008 and have spent alot of quests waiting for a healer to join and waiting for (hour+ for a healer to run the Shroud back in the day)

It is also not fun for the DPS out front to continually die due to the fact there is no dedicated healer or they have to stop swinging their weapon to heal themselves. Especially in end game raids/quests.So make and play dedicated healers if you see this as a problem.

[Rykka]

I have been playing DDO since 2008 and D&D since 1978 a few months after the game came out. When I started playing, multi-class toons were frowned upon by most DM's. There is a reason why toons quest as a group.....team work to complete a task. IMHO multiclassing is forcing the game away from teamwork and more towards I, I and I. Like I said in another post, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon.

When I started (~1978-79) D&D had been out for 4-5 years and had you playing classes like "Elf", so I'll assume you're talking about AD&D, which came out around then.

A Monty Hall/Haul, Hack n Slash, and/or Killer Campaign, tended to be the norm for PUGs (those games run in the back of the game store under a variety of DMs) but I avoided those. Meanwhile, well established, less munchkiny, private groups tended to be better self moderated in all ways. I never saw any "frowning" on multiclassed characters, however.

Just about the only reason you ran a pure was because you were running a human (and then could still dual classed instead if you had the stats to do so). If you ran a non-human you were EXPECTED to multiclass as much as you could. Especially into Thief as it was the only non-level-capped Class for non-humans, iirc.

[Atremus]

I had fun with my healer.. And even if sometimes people used to blame the healer for a wipe or a moment of crysis, I had my nice moments..

Now she's in the closet :(

I also had a lot of fun back when the cap was 20, but not because someone else wanted me to heal them constantly so they could play lazy-like. My favorite class is the FvS and I still play mine today.

[Gremmlynn]

THe way I see it, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon. Otherwise, HEAL!Which is exactly what happened, except they are DPS toons that can keep themselves alive.

[golruul]

If there is a lack of healbots, the root cause is probably because the majority of people don't want to play healbots. Multi-classing isn't the cause because people can still multi-class and be healbot.

You said something along the lines of "if you want to DPS, then DPS", and that's what people are doing, including you. Apparently a vast majority of people prefer killing monsters as opposed to watching other players' health and healing them. This is not unexpected, so why does it surprise you that there's a lack of healbots?

Did you download DDO to heal other players or did you download DDO to kill fantastic monsters and achieve glory? Do you think a significant amount of people installed DDO to heal other people?

Do people download and play a tank simulator so they can be the loader? It's an important position and vital to the party's (crew's) survival. Obviously few people will want to play that, though.

[Gremmlynn]

Rejuvination Cocoon changed the whole game. That's what happened.


Up until that point normal melee could only UMD heal scroll themselves which:

1) was hard to get the necessary UMD score
2) was interruptable and had a slow cast time

But after cocoon everybody could get self heals with almost no cost so there's no reason not to be self-healing. I personally think it's great to eliminate the need for a healer because lots of people don't like that, but I think turbine went too far in that a healers are not even helpful anymore. I think the self-healing options are too good and shouldn't rival what a healing class can offer - for example...they shouldn't heal you to full like reconstruct does or heal you to full after 5-10 seconds like cocoon does. So everyone with a clue would go back to playing WF arcanes, PM's and offensive caster or melee clerics, druids and FVS?

You seem to be missing that those changes were made to bring the rest of the game to the level of these characters, which includes those "healers" the rest needed.

Frankly, I think this was the right way to go if they wanted pugs to be the norm. Because not only does it eliminate the need to wait for that "healer" it eliminates the need for that "healer" to be the best player in the group to make up for the bad play of the others.

[Impaqt]

Divines used to be my favorite class to play. Too many HJEAL ME! Melees and not enough attention from the devs have relegated my divines to the bench.

If you die too much, then you are playing content over your ability. Consider dropping difficulty down until you dont die all the time.

[Deadlock]

What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

Nope. It largely disappeared when you stopped playing at your kitchen table. Some parties enjoy a slow, tactical approach to questing. Others enjoy slaughtering their way through things at a breakneck speed. Both are fine. The problem arises when you try and mix the two groups.

If you're not happy with the LFM's you are seeing, then as you would know if you've been around for as long as you say, you:

post your own LFM. You clearly state, "Nice and slow, non-zerging, tactical teamwork group. No rushers pls.".
edit the classes that you are looking for. As people join, you edit your LFM to restrict the number of classes still needed.
send a tell to politely decline anyone else who hits your lfm that is not in your list of wanted classes.
sit and patiently wait and hope that other party members don't suddenly say "Guild call" and drop out
eventualy, hopefully get a full party together and fingers crossed it all goes well and everyone has a good time.
get really lucky, people stick around for another quest or two. If they don't then you return to the LFM.


Multiclassing has nothing to do with any of that. Oh incidentally, when you've spent hours staring at your screen waiting on the LFM to fill, you might end up thinking about being self-suffcient to make your healer's job easier. Maybe splash some rogue so you can do the traps too.

EDIT: If you really want that playstyle, then your best bet is to spend some time on your server forum or asking around for a guild that matches that playstyle.

[FranOhmsford]

If there is a lack of healbots, the root cause is probably because the majority of people don't want to play healbots. Multi-classing isn't the cause because people can still multi-class and be healbot.


The biggest problem with actually playing a Heal-Bot is that you're the one who is stuck "needing" a group!

You can't solo because you can't kill a thing! {Well maybe in undead heavy quests you're fine}.

I think there'd be a lot more people willing to play Healbots even in DDO IF they could solo on said Healbots when no groups were available {and yes I know everything's soloable to the Ubers out there!}.

Same thing goes for Sword & Board tanks and for Trapper Rogues.

Yes you do realise as you gain experience in this game that these:
1) are not necessary in 99% of the game {tanks}
and
2) have a shed load of newbie traps to avoid when building them {trappers}

BUT

It's the Newbies who come to the game expecting to play a certain type of character {and I've said this before but I'll say it again: I had never heard the term "Tank" in its MMO format before playing DDO} - I did however want to play a Sword and Board Fighter, a Sword & Board Cleric, A single weapon fighting Rogue, A Sword fighting Elf Wizard {NOT A GREATSWORD!} etc.

Finding out that every single one of these iconic {for me} D&D builds was not only not top notch but completely gimped wasn't very nice!


The Trinity as it's become known isn't the issue - I was stunned when I first heard people saying that my Cleric HAD to heal and do nothing else - My Clerics in PnP were Melee capable! {as were my Wizards!}. - It also took me a while to get used to the speed I was required to "heal" at in DDO!
BUT
It's the feeling of playing that character that you played in PnP that I think is really what a lot of people are complaining is not available in DDO when they ask why clerics/fvsouls etc. WON'T heal anyone OR why That Assassin WON'T do the traps OR even why the Fighter is insisting he's NOT a TANK!
They just don't get why you wouldn't want to do these things when you pick that class to play!


It also didn't help that:
- Intimidate was an all or nothing proposition
- Trap DCs in low level quests were stupid high {thankfully fixed now} while Epic players were constantly telling newbies that you only needed two Rogue levels to get every trap in the game {yes if you knew what you were doing and had the right gear WHICH NEWBIES DIDN'T!}
- Clerics were Plat sponges expected to have Wands, Scrolls, Mana Pots etc. etc. {Newbies had no way to get all this and get viable gear at the same time!}




P.S. EVERYBODY DOESN'T HAVE COCOON!!!
There's many of us who don't even have our FIRST Destiny done yet NEVER MIND having the one with Cocoon AND being able to twist it in!!!

[kierg10]

What I get from the op:

"waah I'm bad at this game and cant play without my hand being held. Also I have a weird prejudice against multiclasses because pure classes totally cant self heal."


Also I have a fvs but I'm terrible at healing because I havent played a healer for 2 years, so my fvs is essentially a sorc with the fvs symbol. So yes I dont want to play a healer so I made it a dps toon.

[Gremmlynn]

I'm all for more options, but my main point was that we should have an incentive to go non-self healing. It's true to DnD to have the classic trinity type game as a viable options. The "trinity" style should NOT be forced on everyone as it used to be, but it should be a viable alternative to those who wish to play that way.

I'm all for building for self-sufficiency but players shouldn't be forced to do it. Non-self healing should be a viable alternative.

As I said before, I'm not for nerfing self-healing but instead I'm for buffing "stupid DPS". Give us epic madstone boots, boost barb rage, boost barb capstone, ect. That way non-self healing would have better DPS to compensate for their lack of self-sufficiency.

And when cap was 20, most melee toons were not self-sufficient. Yes you have helf dilly and UMD scroll healing as an option, but it wasn't acessible to most casual players as it required a large investment and you could not get top tier melee DPS and self-healing at the same time.

I just want to get to a point where both building for self-healing and building for non-self healing both have fair tradeoffs.

I hate that you can get both top tier melee DPS and self-healing. I don't think it should work that way. That creates less options and eliminates the classic trinity gameplay style as a viable alternative.Trinity does still work. It's just that it isn't a pug friendly way to play. I that's how one wants to play it's best to do so in a guild/static group environment.

Even if those changes were made that wouldn't fix the problem with trinity pugs. Which is that the "healers" are fine as is and would just group up with other "healers" or others that can take care of themselves. Leaving those who choose to use those new super DPS abilities you want to add waiting to start quests, at least until they figure out that dedicated healer is a position best described with the term "hireling" and go get one.

[kierg10]

For the record if asked to I do heal, I usually just forget to watch other people's red bars since most people I run with (and I pug) self heal.

It is really awesome to not have anyone expecting you to heal on a fvs.

[PsychoBlonde]

lack of healing for lesser toons is happening by player choice.I cant help but toss a heal to a party member smtimes;but i see players lettin the hurt player die often.Its so easy to toss a cocoon at a low hp party member.

Yeah, assuming they're in range and your cocoon is off timer and you have the SP to do this AND heal yourself consistently and there's enough of a pause between them taking damage and dying for you to get the effect off--I don't hotkey cocoon for anything except self-casting on my non-healer toons. Selecting someone else and healing them on my non-healer requires me to break off combat, which may not be strategically wise for me. I also don't tend to watch other people's health bars unless I'm playing my healer.

*Expecting* someone else to provide you with anything--dps, healing, trap services, crowd control, condition removal--is a GREAT way to spend most of your time sitting around going ""Y NO ONE JOIN MY LFM?!?!" The less needy you are, the more you contribute. The more you contribute, the more people will enjoy grouping with you, and the less time you spend sitting on your rump wishing that someone would post a quest you could join.

But, yes, the days when you had to wait around for a healer were AWFUL. People just have no clue what they're actually asking for with these types of requests. This is not a game where 3/4 of the classes can do a healer spec. This is not a game where you can heal effectively on those classes even if you're NOT specced for it. This is not a game where the tank can pick up all the aggro so the healer only has to focus on one person. This is a game where THREE classes (cleric, favored soul, druid) are main-healers and one (bard) is an off healer. Out of 13 classes. This is a game where even a tank who picks up more than 3-4 mobs will get hosed--and everyone else who isn't the tank also gets beat up CONSTANTLY.

Stop trying to play it like it's World of Warcraft.

[Bridge_Dweller]

I have been player my old terrible 18/2 cleric the past week since I've run out of stuff to do on my good characters. I'll heal people if needed, that part of the game never bother me. With EDs and the new enhancements divines have a zillion options.

Here's a new flash for the people who have not evolved and still play sponge toons: you serve no purpose. it's rude, but it's the truth. Divines are powerful, have been for a long time. They don't need you. If you need them you add no value to the group.

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm all for more options, but my main point was that we should have an incentive to go non-self healing.

It is a tragedy that the worst non-self-healing class (Barbarian) basically gets ZERO advantage to make up for this fact. That needs to get fixed.

[kierg10]

Here's a new flash for the people who have not evolved and still play sponge toons: you serve no purpose. it's rude, but it's the truth. Divines are powerful, have been for a long time. They don't need you. If you need them you add no value to the group.

Going in sig

[axel15810]

It is a tragedy that the worst non-self-healing class (Barbarian) basically gets ZERO advantage to make up for this fact. That needs to get fixed.

Yep. I hope they address this with the barb changes. The big issue with barbarians is that the penalties from rage aren't worth it.

I really hope with Frenzied Berserker at least they go the route of increasing the core compentencies of the class - melee DPS, PRR, HP and Dodge, ect. to make giving up self-healing worth it and not just slapping a vampiric effect or heal over time effect onto the barb trees and saying "OK, all fixed!". That would essentially make barbs the same as fighters which would defeat the purpose of balancing in the first place...to give us more viable playstyles.

[axel15810]

So everyone with a clue would go back to playing WF arcanes, PM's and offensive caster or melee clerics, druids and FVS?

You seem to be missing that those changes were made to bring the rest of the game to the level of these characters, which includes those "healers" the rest needed.

Frankly, I think this was the right way to go if they wanted pugs to be the norm. Because not only does it eliminate the need to wait for that "healer" it eliminates the need for that "healer" to be the best player in the group to make up for the bad play of the others.

Read my whole post, you left off the last part where I said I don't want to nerf self healing as it currently stands.

I simply want to buff non-self sufficient DPS to make the "trinity" style viable again. In my opinion it currently is not viable.

Yes, casters were and still are OP compared to melees. But that's a different issue and self-healing is only one part of several that made casters a more optimal choice now and back when cap was level 20.

[Enoach]

As a long time player of Divine Classes I enjoy playing a role that works to make it so a party can go beyond what they normally could.

A good party is greater than the sum of its parts.

Now because I've been playing since '06 I've learned tricks from SP conservation, to party triage, to how to not die when you are being charged by half-a-dozen mobs.

The problem that happened is that people stopped working together because the focus went from having fun run quests to getting past lives as quickly as possible.

Divines have always been powerful, but the problem is that some people felt that they should only sit on the sideline and keep the party alive, which was only 1/3 rd of their abilities.

[axel15810]

Trinity does still work. It's just that it isn't a pug friendly way to play. I that's how one wants to play it's best to do so in a guild/static group environment.

Even if those changes were made that wouldn't fix the problem with trinity pugs. Which is that the "healers" are fine as is and would just group up with other "healers" or others that can take care of themselves. Leaving those who choose to use those new super DPS abilities you want to add waiting to start quests, at least until they figure out that dedicated healer is a position best described with the term "hireling" and go get one.

I disagree. I don't think the trinity style is viable for 2 major reasons -

- Using one party member as a straight healer is not viable since non-self healing melees don't do enough DPS to make up for the party DPS lost by taking a healer which will do very little DPS. Granted there are healing builds that can do pretty good DPS and heal simultaneously so this point could be argued.

- Tanking in the classic S&B heavy armor sense is not viable in EE and in other difficulties not needed in most situations. Also they absorb too much damage since there is no way to reduce magic damage and heavy armor is underpowered. So taking a tank is extremely situational.The DPS lost by taking a S&B tank isn't worth it. Hopefully the upcoming armor changes help with this.

Overall there just isn't enough synergy to be gained in a "trinity" style currently to make up for all the DPS lost by using support characters, healers, a tank, ect.

Sure you can still do it, but the party will be extremely gimped. There is no classic party setup that does as much DPS or is as survivable as a group of 6 self healing casters, self healing ranged toons, ect.

I agree that waiting for a healer is a problem and I don't want to take away the option of building for self-sufficiency. But if we gave non-self healing some carrots as I've described in this thread people would absolutely play them. And as a need for more healing/support types arose, more toons would be created to fill that role. And I agree there will never be enough healers probably to fill the need and because of that anyone who doesn't like the idea of waiting for a healer ocassionally can get some friends in a guild, use a hireling or build a self-sufficient toon.

I just want both self-healing and non-self healing to be viable options.

[Bridge_Dweller]

It is a tragedy that the worst non-self-healing class (Barbarian) basically gets ZERO advantage to make up for this fact. That needs to get fixed.

If the barbs did about 40-50% more damage than the Centered Kensais they'd be worth healing.

[Qhualor]

Read my whole post, you left off the last part where I said I don't want to nerf self healing as it currently stands.

I simply want to buff non-self sufficient DPS to make the "trinity" style viable again. In my opinion it currently is not viable.

Yes, casters were and still are OP compared to melees. But that's a different issue and self-healing is only one part of several that made casters a more optimal choice now and back when cap was level 20.

I think you are confusing builds that are straight up dps and builds that are self sufficient and dps. I play straight up dumb dumb dps characters that use pots as their self sufficiency. they are actually very powerful and can kill very quickly, but their problem is that they cant keep up with others that are able to push a button and be fully healed. I might have to back off and heal up losing out on dps, while others can just stand there, push a button to heal and not bat an eye. if someone is watching my back the whole time I can get the quest done efficiently and fast if need be. I see a lot more lack of dps in groups when people are trying to build for umd to scroll heal, invest in gear, feats, enhancements, etc to boost Cocoon.

[Dendrix]

Like I said in another post, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon.

Nobody wants to heal others. (or rather almost nobody)
spending your time watching everybody's health bars instead of doing things yourself simply isn't that much fun.

Waiting an hour for a healer to run a raid isn't a game I am willing to play any more. I have better things to do with my time that wait around for an hour.

[Lallajulia]

i guess not multiclassing is bad, but you do not like current state of balance of classes.
they try to give more weight into pure builds. last bard overhauls... new pally is coming.
but i think game went too far to be team work game anymore. borders between classes almost do not exist. there is no real divide between roles in combat. in fact, there is no "roles", combat wise.

about healbots. i love play healbots. i would love play them now. but... there is no need. players do not need heals. run around with heal specced cleric is just silly now. by doing that player accomplish nothing.
i still play healbots, a lot, in fact, just in rift. when i feel i want that portion of fun i go there and i like feeling to be on the edge, heal raid, feel others are dependent on me. if i fail, others will fail. same as tank, love play tank. if i fail keep boss aggro, few seconds and team is dead. miss adds and all dead. in ddo? it all just not matter. ddo is game of relax. and that is not bad too. you can easy/peasy run around, smash things, fry some poor kobold into burger and with ease go to next dungeon.

[Sebastrd]

With the past few updates, I have noticed a trend in questing. Maybe it is because I am an old school D&D player (started with Edition 1 rules) but in my opinion, multi-class toons suck! Here is my thought as to why......if you look at the lfms and quest alot, you know that everyone wants self-healing/sufficient (BYOH) toons. Multi-class allows players to be able to do that. But, it also means that there are no dedicated healers for the party members that may not be able to heal themselves as quickly as having a healer. A DPS toon is a good example. Those that run the newest raids, Temple of the Deathwyrm and Fire on Thunder Peak know those quests are DPS dependent. The more dps, the faster the mobs are dead, lowering the spawn rates and lag issues. A toon built for DPS can also have their healing capabilities but taking the time to stop and heal themselves during battle is not an efficient use of a toon (imho). Battle Clerics (again IMHO) have never been a viable option (not enough heals and not enough dps) until the last couple updates. So now, parties are nothing but heal thy self and some players become the brunt of the jokes from the party for dieing (some several times) during quests due to the fact they have to stop beating down a mob to keep themselves heal. What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

Koz

Nobody plays this game to be your babysitter. Every class has a way to self-heal. Part of improving as a player is becoming self-sufficient. You are entitled to personal preferences about game play, and I respect that. However, your preferences should not dictate how others are required to play the game. If you choose to play a one-dimensional character and die frequently, that's on you and I have no sympathy.

There are plenty of pure clerics in this game that would love to follow you around and heal your every ailment. They're called "hirelings", and their folders are 75% off right now.

[Gremmlynn]

Yep. I hope they address this with the barb changes. The big issue with barbarians is that the penalties from rage aren't worth it.

I really hope with Frenzied Berserker at least they go the route of increasing the core compentencies of the class - melee DPS, PRR, HP and Dodge, ect. to make giving up self-healing worth it and not just slapping a vampiric effect or heal over time effect onto the barb trees and saying "OK, all fixed!". That would essentially make barbs the same as fighters which would defeat the purpose of balancing in the first place...to give us more viable playstyles.How would not adding ways to keep the character from becoming a soul stone be in any way "worth it"? Unless they make it so over the top as to be able to kill everything in the game before they die themselves, all doing that would do is make them more of the same as they already are.

If you think that such characters will cause others to feel they are best off playing as a glorified hireling, I believe you are mistaken. as it stands, the is no requirement for such characters in the game, so not many are going to compromise their own fun to keep those who play them on their feet.

That's the crux of the issue. As long as everyone else can get along without that sponge, they will.

[doubledge]

OP, while your idea is a valid point of thought, you haven't truly thought things through. Allow me to illustrate your point of view.

- Multiclass is too confusing! people keep making crappy builds! Remove multiclassing!

- My barbarian sucks cause he can't heal! Make barbarians able to heal!

- OMG other classes still have evasion! nerf them all!

- Okay my pure barbarian is now good. Now where is everyone? the marketplace is entirely empty!


TLDR: Multiclass is the only thing DDO does that most other MMOs lack. It adds customization, and is one of the major reasons we still have people playing DDO. If you hate it, go play a different MMO.

[Gremmlynn]

Read my whole post, you left off the last part where I said I don't want to nerf self healing as it currently stands.

I simply want to buff non-self sufficient DPS to make the "trinity" style viable again. In my opinion it currently is not viable.

Yes, casters were and still are OP compared to melees. But that's a different issue and self-healing is only one part of several that made casters a more optimal choice now and back when cap was level 20.How is trinity not viable?

Make a static group. Get one person make a heal bot and another a tank and the rest can play in easy mode. It just doesn't work so well in pugs as most who would qualify as a healer have no need of a tank or generally much desire to play just to make the game easy for others.

In order to get what you seem to want the damage potential of those "healers" would need to be nerfed to almost nothing, while the self healing ability of everything else that has decent damage potential would also have to. Most players simply don't want to wait for all the right pieces to assemble, nor have to rely on some unknown stranger to make up for weaknesses in their own character.

[axel15810]

How would not adding ways to keep the character from becoming a soul stone be in any way "worth it"? Unless they make it so over the top as to be able to kill everything in the game before they die themselves, all doing that would do is make them more of the same as they already are.

I never said adding self healing wouldn't be "worth it". I said I wanted the DPS of a barb to be worth the rage penalties. Adding self-healing to barbs is a bad idea as I've already described because it would make them too similar to fighters, this defeats the whole purpose of balancing - which is adding additional viable builds. Barbs in this game have always been designed to support a non-self healing melee DPS style. Let's make that worth it instead of transforming barbs into something we already have plenty of support for in other classes, self-healing melee.




If you think that such characters will cause others to feel they are best off playing as a glorified hireling, I believe you are mistaken. as it stands, the is no requirement for such characters in the game, so not many are going to compromise their own fun to keep those who play them on their feet.

That's the crux of the issue. As long as everyone else can get along without that sponge, they will.

If non-self healing toons were hands down the best DPS, it would create a bigger need for healing types. We'd see more for them for that reason. It's basic supply and demand. Just look at pre-MOTU era. We definitely had more healing types then than we do now as they were actually needed. I agree we'll never have enough since most don't like playing support style toons, but we'd certainly have more.

[axel15810]

How is trinity not viable?



I explained that in a prior post in this thread. See post #47 in this thread for a detailed explanation.

In summary the synergy from the trinity is not near worth the DPS loss. That's why.

I'm not saying you can't play that way, it just doesn't hold a candle to 6 self-sufficient casters or ranged toons.

[Buffyanne]

Having to rely on others to heal you in any game is a stupid mechanic and I am glad DDO has moved away from it. I just watched Conan the Destroyer on late night, hadn't seen in it ages how fun is it if Conan has to stop and get healed by a cleric before fighting Dagon? Silly.

[Algreg]

every smart player, pnp o DDO, ever looked for means of survivability. A dead character was no fun to play even at the good old table. Multiclassing has been around D&D for decades now, seems you just are not able to move on.

[Angelic-council]

Nobody wants to heal others. (or rather almost nobody)
spending your time watching everybody's health bars instead of doing things yourself simply isn't that much fun.

Waiting an hour for a healer to run a raid isn't a game I am willing to play any more. I have better things to do with my time that wait around for an hour.

Yah... it's time consuming, but most importantly.. Online games are no longer old school style anymore. Almost in every game healers can dps, and that's something people really like. We just can't help some games like DDO, where there is an option to multi class and that allows you to do whatever you wish.

[Gremmlynn]

If non-self healing toons were hands down the best DPS, it would create a bigger need for healing types. We'd see more for them for that reason. It's basic supply and demand. Just look at pre-MOTU era. We definitely had more healing types then than we do now as they were actually needed. I agree we'll never have enough since most don't like playing support style toons, but we'd certainly have more.Supply and demand only works if those providing what is in demand are getting something out of it.

Personally, what I see happening is that a lot of players will make those barbs, then complain about all the "healers" (the good one's at least)being off in their own groups with self sufficient characters since they have enough offensive power to not need to trade away a lot of the fun of playing the game in order to play it. Especially as most seem to become a lot less careful about avoiding damage when it's somebody else that has to keep them up.

The only way to make your idea work is to make the healers need the sponges as much as the sponges need the healers IMO.

[axel15810]

The only way to make your idea work is to make the healers need the sponges as much as the sponges need the healers IMO.

That's a good point, but I strongly believe that when people make a melee DPS toon, what they want most it to do the most DPS possible. If we offer a non-self healing option that does signficantly more DPS I think many people will go that route.

I think you're coming from the perspective that all divines see healing as a chore. From my experience most don't. The vast majority are happy to heal if healing the person is worth it. What they hate healing are those who do don't the DPS to justify their attention. My main is a cleric and I know that's the way I think. With the changes I suggested I believe it would be "worth it".

[Gremmlynn]

That's a good point, but I strongly believe that when people make a melee DPS toon, what they want most it to do the most DPS possible. If we offer a non-self healing option that does signficantly more DPS I think many people will go that route.

I think you're coming from the perspective that all divines see healing as a chore. From my experience most don't. The vast majority are happy to heal if healing the person is worth it. What they hate healing are those who do don't the DPS to justify their attention. My main is a cleric and I know that's the way I think. With the changes I suggested I believe it would be "worth it".From personal experience. I would much rather heal someone who is doing their best to not need healing, than one who just figures it's not their problem. Also from personal experience, I can say that in most cases the same player will play much more recklessly when there is a healer than when there isn't...and then blame the healer when they run out of SPs and the quest fails.

When I'm on a healer, I'm more interested in how poorly someone is using my SP's than what DPS they have. But then I don't make characters that don't have all the DPS that is needed, "healers" included.

Frankly, I respect your right to play Haystacks smarter cousin. I just don't think that's a major portion of the player base's idea of fun. IMO many more would rather be the one's making stuff happen, than supporting those that do.

[Oliphant]

if you're doing itr/etr grind, you can easily single class and cover healing with cocoon

could have a very rich conversation about healing and history but...

i think about how much time i've spent back in the healer heydays waiting to play quests. almost unbelievable, like how people in america used to smoke at the doctor's office, teaching kindergarten, in the confessional booth, on airplanes, and pretty much everywhere all the time

plus i always disliked the official pnp bias against multi-classing. everyone i played with always wanted to customize a bit, to make it their own. everyone made up cool backstories. in pnp you (DM) stretch the game to let them make technically-off combos work, so long as they're telling stories. and didn't every group have the arcane with one fighter level?

[FranOhmsford]

and didn't every group have the arcane with one fighter level?

Elminster u mean?

[goodspeed]

This isn't really isn't how it went...

2~3 years ago, a normal pug wouldn't start without a healer. The pros/twinks/multiTRs were all playing their warforgeds and somehow keeping themselves alive but the normal folk couldn't play without a healer.

I understand that this is actually what you wanted for DDO but it led to a problem where a PUG would just sit in the harbor waiting 20~30 minutes for a healer. It led to a problem where a cleric/fvs simply did not want to join pugs, because it was too much work and because everyone absolutely threw their lives in his hands.

It was terrible.

They still do the goof balls. Join a pug, ok omw. Leader: take ur time we're waiting for a healer. Person: the hell for? You have melee and a mage. Leader: stuff hits to hard we need heals.

So of course you then ditch the gimp, slap up your own box IP and charge ahead slaying everything with your 2 handed falchon. Accepting the applications of the other people that were in the previous group before as you charge your way to xpPM victory!! (Sometimes squelching the tool leader that assumed you thought he was a human, or for that matter cared what he had to say in his colorful pm lol.)

[Rykka]

Elminster u mean?

It was pretty common even before E had his column about famous swords and stuff in 80s Dragon magazines for human MUs to dualclass a few levels of fighter, thief, or cleric first.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you want to play a healer, that is fine.
if you want some one else to play a healer, that is not fine.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Teamwork:

You buff me;
You heal me;
I'll swing my great axe;

and you, hold my cape and /cheer.

[cdemeritt]

THe way I see it, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon. Otherwise, HEAL!


And this attitude is why many stop playing Divines... There is a reason why Divines flock to a BYOH/IP LFM, yet will ignore a LFM with "Healer Wanted".

[Oliphant]

And this attitude is why many stop playing Divines...

exactly! first came the whining at the healers, then came the waiting forever for the healers that weren't there

[Qhualor]

exactly! first came the whining at the healers, then came the waiting forever for the healers that weren't there

than came the every class can scroll heal themselves and every lfm is IP.

[Talonaise]

EXACTLY! then that person becomes the brunt of jokes for dieing all the time. Granted this is just a game, but to me it is no different than the playground bully pushing you down and laughing at you when you sliced your leg open. Everyone wants to do damage and nobody wants to heal. Back in the day, when SP pots were not easy to come by, I kind of understand Clerics/FVS being hesitant to join certain parties. SP pots were the issue. They weren't many to be found and the ones you could find cost alot of plat. Consequently, healers use to ***** at DPS for getting out of range from their heals and dieing. Healers acted as if they death was a reflection of their playing ability. As a DPS player, I'd get ****ed off when a healer would ***** at me for dieing and how it costs them alot to keep stocked with SP pots. Yes, it cost alot for SP pots, but the gear a DPS toon needs to get them through a quest costs alot as well. When I play my FVS toon, I used to get ****ed at myself if I let someone in the party die. THe way I see it, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon. Otherwise, HEAL!

Yes yes I get it -- We should all play our characters they way you want, so that you can play your character the way YOU want. It is all about you, how could we have ever forgotten that?

And yea -- pots were expensive, and dps toons sucked them up like little mana sponges swinging away watching their HP go down, never thinking, hmmm I might be out of range perhaps I should STEP back a second nah I should just keep dying. Really this narrow minded perspective is what sucked the joy out of being a pure healer. I loved by end game raid healer -- but I did not take her out of guild because of this attitude. But I am so glad there are people like you to tell us how we should play the game.

[rehakp]

What do you suggest ? delete multicassing option ? building weak toons that needs babysitter 24/7 ?
If you feel lack of pure healers then roll pure cleric or FvS or even healing specced druid. I bet you will be welcommed in all kinds of parties.
Holy trinity of tank-heal-dps known from WoW is just not DDO thing and its better IMHO. You can maybe achieve 10% faster killing with 1 tank 1 healer and 4 DPS (all pure) but i will sacrifice those 10% for versatility any day. Properly build toon doesnt sacrifice too mutch when multiclassing for versatility ... and i dont mean only healing with versatility.
Lets imagine your ideal party with 6 pures. What happens when healer dies and noone can help with healing or rise because you dont care you are pure tank or DPS ? What happens if your pure trapper dies on crucible swim because of lag/bad luck and you posses only his 1 evasion in your pure party ? There are many situations in DDO where versatility is ALOT more usefull than being able to push out 10% more of pure role ability. And you can get this versatility really cheap from proper multiclassing and sometimes if you doing it well you dont even pay any price for it and get only benefits.
If you dislike multiclassing and want to stay pure, stay pure, there are classes and builds that are usefull while being pure. But please let me multiclass because finding new combos and new synergy in every multiclass i plan for next life is alot of fun for me.

[Eth]

I don't see the connection between multiclassing and self healing.
Self healing these days is usually achieved through:
- Bladeforged racial SLA
- Rejuvenation cocoon

Non of these abilities are tied to classes.

Deeper multiclass-splits for self healing like 12 sorc or 11 cleric is something you'll rarely see.
The only exception might be 8+ druid (which is more for the winter wolf form though than for the self healing).

[SirValentine]

It is really awesome to not have anyone expecting you to heal on a fvs.


It's even more awesome when you take the next step, and just don't care whether anyone else "expects" you to heal on a divine.

[Amundir]

I wouldn't say not anyone expects a fvs to heal. I've been in a few pugs where other party members let their health dip low and didn't seem to heal themselves. I'm not at a point in my divine life were I'm comfortable letting a peep die if I can toss them a wand cast or otherwise. Then again, for me it's random pugs so who knows what situation they are in(noob/lagging/trinity believer).

[Wipey]

My Cleric is a Vulture. I would give people false sense of support and security, give Axer Package and watch red bars like a hawk.
Then when they are vulnerable or in the toughest fecal matter, boom ! I stop doing that and let them die like a weaklings they are.
It gives the toon a purpose and party member kill counts as ten mobs. Can't overdo it though, can't enter wipe territory or use excuses too often, or it will look suspicious.
People love to have a cleric. I would do nothing and I would still get buffed and stuff. After you save someone hide few times, they would follow you like kittens, wait for buffs, group for buffs, wait at shrine.
That makes them weak though, gotta toughen em up - see Vulture strategery.

I don't know why people would play with me ever. Or ask me to bring a Cleric to raids. It's a mystery.

tl;dr yes

[cdemeritt]

After re-reading the OP, and the OP's responses, and now see what the real problem is, I can only come to the conclusion that the OP is Trolling.


There is no way someone who has played as long as he claims hasn't seen/been a part of this tired subject/argument in the past, as it is as old as the game itself. I believe the OP wanted to cause an argument, but knows full well if his title was "Healers need to stand in the Back and heal me", at this point he'd be laughed at and ignored by most who have been there/done that argument before. So he creates a Title that will get attention, and a weak argument on how it's somehow the fault of multiclassing (even though my wizard would still be self-healing, even without the rogue splash, and a pure Rogue is still likely to umd wands/scroll without a ranger splash, etc.) so he can argue an old tired argument.

So OP, don't worry, you won't ever see my Battle Clerics, they are too busy questing to bother you in your pugs...

[FranOhmsford]

It's even more awesome when you take the next step, and just don't care whether anyone else "expects" you to heal on a divine.

I gave up expecting FvSs to heal anyone other than themselves when Druid came out!

At that point Healer wanted LFMs became Cleric/Druid/Bard only! {it's an absolute travesty that a moderately high lvl Bard is more likely to throw a heal than a FvS!}.

On the other hand I haven't posted a Healer wanted LFM in a couple of updates now BUT that's probably more to do with me virtually ignoring Epics and Lvl 17+ Heroic quests entirely than anything else!

With no-one joining an LFM unless it's already IP these days I stick to those quests that I know I can start IP and survive long enough with a hire for others to join!
And if they want to bring a hire too they're welcome to!


Heck I rarely run Vale flags anymore because I know I'm going to need a group! And no not just a healer {a hire works fine in a group I just usually need more DPS and/or CC!}.

[Bridge_Dweller]

It's even more awesome when you take the next step, and just don't care whether anyone else "expects" you to heal on a divine.

Amateur. The True magic lie in healing the gimps just a little so they get a false sense of security, then let them die a few times because of "lag" or "they were around a corner."

[Bridge_Dweller]

I gave up expecting FvSs to heal anyone other than themselves when Druid came out!

I'll heal on red/purple names. I think that's a completely reasonable expectation.

[Oliphant]

Yeah, assuming they're in range and your cocoon is off timer...

just pointing out for all that cocoon has an unusually long range and it works through walls, force barriers, and pretty much any possible obstacle. my favorite use is when I get left behind a forcewall when the party gets ambushed and can still heal them with it. lately its been fun in quests when the group splits up and i'm still healing the whole party from opposite sides of the dungeon with my bard. even though i never use it, having a back up cure spell allows me to freely use cocoon as frequently as possible without fear that i will be left without in a crunch. works on any build with a little sp and i've had to chuckle sometimes how my sorc's healing out performs my old cleric's in some ways.

[goodspeed]

My Cleric is a Vulture. I would give people false sense of support and security, give Axer Package and watch red bars like a hawk.
Then when they are vulnerable or in the toughest fecal matter, boom ! I stop doing that and let them die like a weaklings they are.
It gives the toon a purpose and party member kill counts as ten mobs. Can't overdo it though, can't enter wipe territory or use excuses too often, or it will look suspicious.
People love to have a cleric. I would do nothing and I would still get buffed and stuff. After you save someone hide few times, they would follow you like kittens, wait for buffs, group for buffs, wait at shrine.
That makes them weak though, gotta toughen em up - see Vulture strategery.

I don't know why people would play with me ever. Or ask me to bring a Cleric to raids. It's a mystery.

tl;dr yes

hahaha nice.

[FestusHood]

Whenever this subject comes up, there are always multiple responses that tanks, healers, and trappers are not needed. Here are some other roles that are not needed.

All of them.

Yes, that's right, you can complete any quest in the game without an archer, or a monk, or a bard, or a wizard, or a sorcerer. If being "needed" is the only justification for someone to play a class or role, well there simply isn't anything like that.

Once you realize that, it's perfectly fine to play with the tank, dps, healer roles. Some people actually enjoy it, and since that's the only justification anyone can come up with for why they play the toons they do, it's perfectly viable, provided it's executed correctly. Like anything else.

[firemedium_jt]

It is not the mult classing that is the problem here for the OP.

In Heroic there is a lot less healing for melee builds. There are still traditional roles. There are more experienced players that know what gear works and what does not. It is not even if they are running a TR. It is concepts they have picked up from playing the game. I can take 4 things and out melee most pug newbie melee builds. There are lots of players running around in Heroic with less than umber builds and the game should be built for them to welcome new players.

The problem is when my CLR3/FTR1 comes a long with Power Attack and a Keen Falchion with Icy burst and mows things down or further on when he gets Divine Power items and accuracy. It comes from reading the forums. I remember when I was new and could not understand why Pallies dumped their Wisdom. I had to re build him either using Vet1 or LR about 3 times to get him right.

I still run Heroic some and we tried short manning Elite VON6 and wiped and it was not because I was running CLR10/FTR1. It was because we only had 9 toons mostly at min lvl11. Couple at 13-14. Maybe CLR11/FTR1 would have helped some, but it was going no where. It was a pug and who knows how good they were. It could be so many other things like bad gear or bad builds. No one cried about it. Everyone did their job. It was heroic you know. It is good to have it handed to you sometimes.

I still ask toons what they are using for gear. I give advice and spend time to help them. I always try to get them to use the forums mostly along with giving them some important tips.
It includes using fortification. YOu would be amazed at how many don't have much of it. Or what W is and critical profile relationships so they can make good weapon choices.

Is helping others what it is all about to keep this game going?

I still see lots of pure builds in the game. I will say that a ClR17/PAL2 will be able to heal just as good as a CLR20, but have tons of more survivability. Also tons of synergy and extra healing from the Pal2 in Epic from Unyielding Sov. Saving throws are important in Epic.

My CLR17/Pal2/FTR1 heals just fine and has flexibility with EDs to run EN and EH content.

Really all they have to do is step up the difficulty for Epic content to cause more traditional roles. Make difficulty EH like current EE, EN like current EH and EC like current EN, and make EE harder, but not a lot harder, so things scale with rewards.

Please do not kid yourselves that healers are not needed. It is that .content is too easy in Epic. When the lag monster hits healers come in handy. The lag monster is the only difficulty in Epic, and maybe EE content for traditional roles.

[DrNuegebauer]

With the past few updates, I have noticed a trend in questing. Maybe it is because I am an old school D&D player (started with Edition 1 rules) but in my opinion, multi-class toons suck! Here is my thought as to why......if you look at the lfms and quest alot, you know that everyone wants self-healing/sufficient (BYOH) toons. Multi-class allows players to be able to do that. But, it also means that there are no dedicated healers for the party members that may not be able to heal themselves as quickly as having a healer. A DPS toon is a good example. Those that run the newest raids, Temple of the Deathwyrm and Fire on Thunder Peak know those quests are DPS dependent. The more dps, the faster the mobs are dead, lowering the spawn rates and lag issues. A toon built for DPS can also have their healing capabilities but taking the time to stop and heal themselves during battle is not an efficient use of a toon (imho). Battle Clerics (again IMHO) have never been a viable option (not enough heals and not enough dps) until the last couple updates. So now, parties are nothing but heal thy self and some players become the brunt of the jokes from the party for dieing (some several times) during quests due to the fact they have to stop beating down a mob to keep themselves heal. What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

Koz

From reading your post, it appears that you have a very particular style of play that you like, and you're welcome to it.
But you can't shoe-horn everyone else to play your way.

If you want to play that way, fine. But realize that others prefer the way it currently is, and so therefore you might need to be prepared to wait longer to accommodate your play-style.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I also believe that everyone should help each other, but you don't need to play a specific role to do that.
you just need to work together and be aware of health bars and map dots.

I believe that every toon should be as versatile as possible, for their chosen class and build.

Most of this can be done through just carrying equipment for common and special situation.... for example, everyone at higher levels should try to find some method of raising the dead.


(but even "I" have gotten away from carrying wands of things like Remove Curse......)

[firemedium_jt]

I want to highlight this because this is a simple solution to some of the OP....

Really all they have to do is step up the difficulty for Epic content to cause more traditional roles. Make difficulty EH like current EE, EN like current EH and EC like current EN, and make EE harder, but balanced with other difficulties, so things scale with rewards.

[Birdtrax]

I know lately in groups that everyone has a blue bar and my cleric does little healing. More multiclass builds include a splash of fvs, bard or cleric. Then of course a lot more WF, it may be good for the game or not...time will tell. Lastly I play my bard more now than my cleric, since more players are sell sufficient.

[morkahn82]

Long ago people played specialized characters, many strengths many flaws, in balanced parties. Unfortunately specialized characters did not care much about damage mitigation and capabilities to reduce incoming damage. Healers were sick of healing mana sponges, and got rare in pug. With healers left, people went byoh/self-sufficiency. With empty servers a reason more to go byoh/self-sufficiency since you often have to solo. Unfortunately hirelings AI is only moderate, and hireling often get killed by some aoe, since those pure healer hirelings dont have evasion. So, many reasons to go self-sufficient, often implies to go multiclass.


Really all they have to do is step up the difficulty for Epic content to cause more traditional roles. Make difficulty EH like current EE, EN like current EH and EC like current EN, and make EE harder, but balanced with other difficulties, so things scale with rewards.

I doubt an increase in epic difficulty will cause more traditional roles.

My guess is that if quest design has to be changed, so people need to assign a tank, dps, cc, trapper, kiter and healer.
Make people die if boss hits them, if you are not a well-equipped tank.
Make tank die if he is not healed by good heals.
Make group die, if trash is not cc'd.
Make party wipe in trap if no adequate trapper is present.
Make party run out of mana if dps is too low.
Make party die if kiter does not take agro away from group.
Like e.g. TOD in the old days.
And back are specialized characters.
Current quest design does not entirly require specialized builds other than self-sufficient dps machines.

[SirValentine]

I also believe that everyone should help each other, but you don't need to play a specific role to do that.
you just need to work together and be aware of health bars and map dots.

I believe that every toon should be as versatile as possible, for their chosen class and build.

Most of this can be done through just carrying equipment for common and special situation.... for example, everyone at higher levels should try to find some method of raising the dead.


+1.

Teamwork, regardless of class icon.

[rehakp]

My guess is that if quest design has to be changed, so people need to assign a tank, dps, cc, trapper, kiter and healer.
Make people die if boss hits them, if you are not a well-equipped tank.
Make tank die if he is not healed by good heals.
Make group die, if trash is not cc'd.
Make party wipe in trap if no adequate trapper is present.
Make party run out of mana if dps is too low.
Make party die if kiter does not take agro away from group.
Like e.g. TOD in the old days.
And back are specialized characters.
Current quest design does not entirly require specialized builds other than self-sufficient dps machines.

Yeah that approach would force ppl to tank-heal-dps specialized roles probably. But it would not help and probbaly would harm because important thing is missing here ... "server population". Its not funny to be forced into pure role and then 10 ppl wait 2 hours in LFM for raid because you cant fill those last important pure 2 spots. Not even thinking about how you define "adequate trapper" ? Is adequate trapper 2rog/18 wiz with 50+25 int and maxed trap skills ? Or you have to be pure 20 rogue with that mutch int and some lvl 18/20 core mechanics uber bonusses ?

[morkahn82]

Yeah that approach would force ppl to tank-heal-dps specialized roles probably. But it would not help and probbaly would harm because important thing is missing here ... "server population". Its not funny to be forced into pure role and then 10 ppl wait 2 hours in LFM for raid because you cant fill those last important pure 2 spots. Not even thinking about how you define "adequate trapper" ? Is adequate trapper 2rog/18 wiz with 50+25 int and maxed trap skills ? Or you have to be pure 20 rogue with that mutch int and some lvl 18/20 core mechanics uber bonusses ?

Very true. Empty servers are a problem. And would cause troubles if we need players to play roles other than byoh dps. So probably we should instead ask why servers are empty. Which, in my opinion, yours may differ, leads us back to exploits, pay2win and lag/leak/log-in issues.

[nokowi]

With the past few updates, I have noticed a trend in questing. Maybe it is because I am an old school D&D player (started with Edition 1 rules) but in my opinion, multi-class toons suck! Here is my thought as to why......if you look at the lfms and quest alot, you know that everyone wants self-healing/sufficient (BYOH) toons. Multi-class allows players to be able to do that. But, it also means that there are no dedicated healers for the party members that may not be able to heal themselves as quickly as having a healer. A DPS toon is a good example. Those that run the newest raids, Temple of the Deathwyrm and Fire on Thunder Peak know those quests are DPS dependent. The more dps, the faster the mobs are dead, lowering the spawn rates and lag issues. A toon built for DPS can also have their healing capabilities but taking the time to stop and heal themselves during battle is not an efficient use of a toon (imho). Battle Clerics (again IMHO) have never been a viable option (not enough heals and not enough dps) until the last couple updates. So now, parties are nothing but heal thy self and some players become the brunt of the jokes from the party for dieing (some several times) during quests due to the fact they have to stop beating down a mob to keep themselves heal. What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

Koz

DDO does not reward single class builds. In D&D, a level 20+ pure class gets additional epic feats. In DDO, players utilize the abilities of each class to make the most effective builds. The result is a fun builder game, but the watering down of unique abilities for each class. At some point, it feels nothing like D&D. Some players have already reached this point, and some have yet to.