Future of SWF with Shield Mastery

[N-0cturn]

Time for some Doom and Gloom in the bard forum!



We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF.


I felt like it was very good but not necessarily too good on a bard because bards are so feat starved. However since it seems to work with SWF in general using orbs I can see why it would be made exclusive.

I wonder if this will mean that everyone will go from using a buckler to nothing in the off-hand. +10% dodge and the slot are nice but it is kind of hard to compete with the damage and doublestrike bonus.

[Sloene]

I will be very upset if they do this, on a feat starved class, the cost of 2 feats and a twist makes the dps increase is not OP.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Time for some Doom and Gloom in the bard forum!



I felt like it was very good but not necessarily too good on a bard because bards are so feat starved. However since it seems to work with SWF in general using orbs I can see why it would be made exclusive.

I wonder if this will mean that everyone will go from using a buckler to nothing in the off-hand. +10% dodge and the slot are nice but it is kind of hard to compete with the damage and doublestrike bonus.

Short-lived & a shame, i rather liked having a little extra PRR & doublestrike from them on my stalwart swashbuckler.. but will be sticking with the buckler, extra damage & doublestrike are nice but the dodge & extra effects from the buckler itself still win out for me. On the plus side, that means i now have 2 extra feats for that guy to use elsewhere.

[N-0cturn]

Short-lived & a shame, i rather liked having a little extra PRR & doublestrike from them on my stalwart swashbuckler.. but will be sticking with the buckler, extra damage & doublestrike are nice but the dodge & extra effects from the buckler itself still win out for me. On the plus side, that means i now have 2 extra feats for that guy to use elsewhere.

This is kind of similar to my thoughts when I read it. It is a shame, but on the other hand I will gladly take the 2 feats back. Although I am not sure about buckler or nothing yet.

This will probably hurt any 12 bard 6 fighter build more where you do not need the feats as badly as on a (mostly) pure bard. Anyway maybe it is just talk.

[PestWulf]

Time for some Doom and Gloom in the bard forum!



I felt like it was very good but not necessarily too good on a bard because bards are so feat starved. However since it seems to work with SWF in general using orbs I can see why it would be made exclusive.

I wonder if this will mean that everyone will go from using a buckler to nothing in the off-hand. +10% dodge and the slot are nice but it is kind of hard to compete with the damage and doublestrike bonus.

Honestly I think it will depend on what specifics the buckler has. Just extra AC or some small amount of PRR isn't going to cut it, however the Swashbuckler shield I am finding to be the most amazing thing since sliced bread. My new bard just hit 20 yesterday and this shield is an amazing defensive item. Guardbreaking causes a Daze effect on crit and it doesn't seem to have a save. Followed with a 30% crit chance and some AE attacks like Cleave I'm stopping a mountain of incoming damage. For a light tank that is a perfectly feasible choice over doublestrike and some extra damage.

[TeacherSyn]

Honestly I think it will depend on what specifics the buckler has. Just extra AC or some small amount of PRR isn't going to cut it, however the Swashbuckler shield I am finding to be the most amazing thing since sliced bread. My new bard just hit 20 yesterday and this shield is an amazing defensive item. Guardbreaking causes a Daze effect on crit and it doesn't seem to have a save. Followed with a 30% crit chance and some AE attacks like Cleave I'm stopping a mountain of incoming damage. For a light tank that is a perfectly feasible choice over doublestrike and some extra damage.

Agreed.

And the Swashbuckler shield adds a bit of Doublestrike on its own, and you can train Warchanter abilities for a bit more. And we're not even talking about Epic Destiny options. I'm also adding PRR bonuses from that tree for more light tankage.

I've trained all Shield Mastery feats so I can enjoy Legendary Shield Mastery for more PRR and Doublestrike as well.

[mrunlimited]

Honestly I never wanted to invest in the shield line for flavor purposes, and that 10% doublestike coupled with the extra 5 damage is nice. I have done 2 etrs like this in various spheres and love it. You are a little squishy but can put the hurt on in a awesome way. You guys wont miss it much.

[jalont]

I will be very upset if they do this, on a feat starved class, the cost of 2 feats and a twist makes the dps increase is not OP.

Can you think of two other feats that would have a similar DPS increase?

[Makkuroi]

Time for some Doom and Gloom in the bard forum!



I felt like it was very good but not necessarily too good on a bard because bards are so feat starved. However since it seems to work with SWF in general using orbs I can see why it would be made exclusive.

I wonder if this will mean that everyone will go from using a buckler to nothing in the off-hand. +10% dodge and the slot are nice but it is kind of hard to compete with the damage and doublestrike bonus.

When swash turned out to be that strong, I thought it was a good idea to start working on a bard past life. Turns out I was right, I hope I get ready for ITR before the nerf. I was considering staying bard for another ETR but with incoming nerf ill just try something else. Maybe bard really is OP atm, but I think a lot of people are just trying the new stuff out. Of course, they tried a lot of things to improve S/B builds, and those now stacking with swash makes it quite strong.

I havent got the crystal cove shield or the kobold admirals shield but im doing fine with a crafted blue slot buckler atm.

specs:

PDK stalwart swash 12/6/2rogue, cha based with shortsword
twists: sense weakness, legendary shield, cocoon

[Oliphant]

boos all around for this, many boos

[MadCookieQueen]

Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect.


Sev~


and this just is not a source of happy....

[Sloene]

Can you think of two other feats that would have a similar DPS increase?

Master/Grandmaster of Forms offers more gains. The point is non lawful characters need something to bring them up in line with monk/pali splash builds, I also include Barbarians in this, they seriously need some love. 2 Feats and a twist is expensive and should give good rewards. I'm fine if they remove the proposed bonus melee power from it ( keeping it for light/heavy/tower shields ), but keep the bonus double strike and prr, a buckler IS a shield even if a rather pathetic one. And no, orbs shouldn't get it.

[CThruTheEgo]

2 Feats and a twist is expensive and should give good rewards. I'm fine if they remove the proposed bonus melee power from it ( keeping it for light/heavy/tower shields ), but keep the bonus double strike and prr, a buckler IS a shield even if a rather pathetic one. And no, orbs shouldn't get it.

Agree 100% with this.

[Scrabbler]

Keep in mind that the Shield Mastery and Shield Bash feats are getting a pretty large buff. (And I'd argue that combining them with SWF is already too strong compared with SWF alone)

[ddorimble]

Melee Power, Two Handed Fighting feats, and Shield Feats
To help further balance the system, some basic feats are being changed to add Melee Power as a passive bonus.

Two Handed Fighting adds 10 Melee Power while wielding a two handed weapon.
Improved Two Handed Fighting adds an additional 5 Melee Power while wielding a two handed weapon.
Greater Two Handed Fighting adds an additional 5 Melee Power while wielding a two handed weapon.

Shield Mastery adds 10 Melee Power while wielding a shield.
Improved Shield Mastery adds an additional 5 Melee Power while wielding a shield.
Improved Shield Bash adds an additional 5 Melee Power while wielding a shield.


I really think Severlin was focusing on this aspect of those feats with his comment. I think he was specifically commenting on not combining SWF + Shield Melee Power, not necessarily the existing SWF + Shield Doublestrike. Hopefully they can resolve that without making SWF and Shield Feats mutually exclusive.

[Scrabbler]

Hopefully they can resolve that without making SWF and Shield Feats mutually exclusive.
Why would it be good to allow SWF and Shield feats at the same time?

Would you also recommend that the Vanguard tree (Fighter+Paladin) allow S&B + SWF together? How about Tempest allowing TWF + SWF?

[CThruTheEgo]

Why would it be good to allow SWF and Shield feats at the same time?

Would you also recommend that the Vanguard tree (Fighter+Paladin) allow S&B + SWF together? How about Tempest allowing TWF + SWF?

The feats are called shield mastery, not sword and board fighting style. Fighting with a weapon and shield is still only using a single weapon, so why shouldn't SWF work with S&B style anyway? By your reasoning, a swashbuckler that takes the skirmisher enhancement shouldn't be allowed to take gain the benefits of the SWF feats. IMO, the defender trees should get an enhancement that allows them to use a shield and gain the benefits of SWF just like skirmisher does for bards.

And I don't see any reason why SWF should be exclusive with THF or TWF either. What's wrong with giving people the option to have multiple fighting styles if they want? Some people like that kind of versatility.

[Scrabbler]

The feats are called shield mastery, not sword and board fighting style.
Appealing to how things happen to be named does not answer questions about what is better for gameplay. For people to understand the role, it would be good to attach a label like "Combat Style S&B" to the Shield Mastery + Shield Bash feats.


Fighting with a weapon and shield is still only using a single weapon, so why shouldn't SWF work with S&B style anyway?
Seriously? The reason SWF shouldn't work with S&B is because then SWF would be the only good way to fight while holding a shield. (That's the same reasoning TWF shouldn't work with S&B, by the way)


And I don't see any reason why SWF should be exclusive with THF or TWF either. What's wrong with giving people the option to have multiple fighting styles if they want? Some people like that kind of versatility.
Ok, this gets into a big important point some people seem to be forgetting:

Combat style feats are intentionally more powerful than other feats (with the possible exception of THF ones). That is to compensate for requiring you to equip specific kinds of items, which would otherwise be substandard (and which locks you out of other styles while they're equipped). Because combat style feats are more powerful, it's a bad idea to allow someone to benefit from two groups of style feats at the same time. It doesn't work to fall back to the reasoning "It costs feat slots, so it must be balanced"

[Ancient]

How about Tempest allowing TWF + SWF?
This is a really bad example since it proves the opposite of what you want... since it is possible.

[CThruTheEgo]

Appealing to how things happen to be named does not answer questions about what is better for gameplay. For people to understand the role, it would be good to attach a label like "Combat Style S&B" to the Shield Mastery + Shield Bash feats.

Seriously? The reason SWF shouldn't work with S&B is because then SWF would be the only good way to fight while holding a shield. (That's the same reasoning TWF shouldn't work with S&B, by the way)

I don't see S&B as mutually exclusive with SWF. This seems to be a core difference in our perspectives. I don't see them as exclusive because we don't really have a S&B fighting style feat line. I wasn't just arguing semantics when I pointed this out previously. You seem to be arguing that the shield mastery/shield bash feats are the S&B fighting style line. But if that's the case, they are very weak compared with THF, TWF, and SWF, even including the new melee power changes as well as the defensive benefits gained. The proposed changes are definitely an improvement, but they still won't make S&B a truly competitive and viable style imo.


Ok, this gets into a big important point some people seem to be forgetting:

Combat style feats are intentionally more powerful than other feats (with the possible exception of THF ones). That is to compensate for requiring you to equip specific kinds of items, which would otherwise be substandard (and which locks you out of other styles while they're equipped). Because combat style feats are more powerful, it's a bad idea to allow someone to benefit from two groups of style feats at the same time. It doesn't work to fall back to the reasoning "It costs feat slots, so it must be balanced"

I never said they should "benefit from two groups of style feats at the same time." I said they should be allowed to take different styles to fight with multiple styles, if desired. That does not imply gaining the benefits of multiple styles simultaneously.

But this goes back to my point above – imo we simply don't have a S&B style right now, at least not in feats. If the shield feats get a significant improvement that makes S&B a truly competative and viable alternative, then I can see the possibility of making S&B and SWF mutually exclusive. But currently, it's not OP or game breaking in any way for them to work together and the cost to benefit ratio seems about right imo.

[Sloene]

As a side note, it was stated previously ( I think on the Lama swash thread's ) that a specific sword and board combat style with feats etc was in development. Looking forward to the S&B is OP threads when that happens.

[Xaxx]

As I pointed out in that thread they seem to be making a concerted effort to differ shields between evasion (light/buckler) and tank (heavy/tower) so the simple solution is to make the mele power part of shield master/improved shield mastery is to make it only apply to heavy/tower shields. You maintain the integrity of allowing different build types, be it swash or other things in allowing them to still take the shield feats for the prr/double strike without giving them access to the mele power. They're already heading down this line with the evasion for light no evasion for heavy shields even though I think its a bad idea, so why not just continue down the line they've already decided and let sleeping dogs lie in builds already at use.

[autochthon]

I feel like shields need to be able to attain higher % of bash chance before enhancement form gear to be honest. That being said, I like shieldfighting and "dueling" about equally.

[Amideus]

As I pointed out in that thread they seem to be making a concerted effort to differ shields between evasion (light/buckler) and tank (heavy/tower) so the simple solution is to make the mele power part of shield master/improved shield mastery is to make it only apply to heavy/tower shields. You maintain the integrity of allowing different build types, be it swash or other things in allowing them to still take the shield feats for the prr/double strike without giving them access to the mele power. They're already heading down this line with the evasion for light no evasion for heavy shields even though I think its a bad idea, so why not just continue down the line they've already decided and let sleeping dogs lie in builds already at use.

I made this exact post in the thread about the proposed changes. There is no reason to completely butcher the SWF swashbuckling builds by doing this, as it will make Skirmisher in a weird place. No one plays true sword and board anyway since the shield feats are pathetically terrible. Most people just play ranged or high defense damage builds and kite. This would have made the first functional defensive build and allowed versatility in the Epic Destiny options. Sentinel's shield mastery requires you to have the shield feats, and it's a pretty poor design choice to limit SWF and Shield benefits. Just make shield mastery stronger for heavier shields, and weaker for bucklers, while allowing people to use both.

On a side note we should start a petition to show Sev that the Swashbuckling community wants these options and have ideas for compromise.

[autochthon]

SWF should be compatible with bucklers by default.

Improved bash should be incompatible with bucklers by default.

We need more ways to bash. Badly.

[Amideus]

One option would be to change the way the feat currently works, by giving it tiers of effects.

Buckler/Light shield - Double Strike and PRR (current bonuses)
Heavy Shields and Tower Shields - % Health bonus, PRR, and Melee Power or Doublestrike, PRR, and melee power.

Wouldn't be too hard to do at all, gives the tanks the melee power benefit they need, allows swashbucklers to gain dual benefits for taking skirmisher, doesn't make the class too powerful, and preserves the idea that melee should be closer to ranged.

[Klixen]

Can you think of two other feats that would have a similar DPS increase?

On my build which is a feat starved pure bard, I guess Overpowering Critical and Epic Damage Reduction will come close to the same effects. You can twist in Legendary SM regardless of SM feats as long as it was selected on a build that had them. Not sure if it works though, and likely not WAI even if it does work.

[Amideus]

On my build which is a feat starved pure bard, I guess Overpowering Critical and Epic Damage Reduction will come close to the same effects. You can twist in Legendary SM regardless of SM feats as long as it was selected on a build that gas them. Not sure if it works though, and likely not WAI even if it does work.

The patch will make it so you cannot select them at all, not that you cannot benefit from them. Taking SWF will remove the SM feats from the feat list as options period.

[Zachski]

I have a few nitpicks to make about certain arguments in this thread.

First of all, shields are weapons. Anyone who's used a shield in real life will tell you this. They are weapons that are also very good at deflecting weapons and preventing harm towards you, and thus also count as armor. But do not doubt it. They are weapons. (As for why TWF shouldn't apply to using a sword and shield, one could posit the argument that shields are a very *unique* weapon that requires more than just "proficiency" to use, hence the shield mastery feats and the like)

Second of all, the point of the Swashbuckler is to basically go for a Flynn style fighting combat. Rapier out, fist on hip, en garde!

Wearing a buckler isn't very conducive to being a swashbuckling fencer. (The fact that you can use other weapons than the rapier notwithstanding.)

[Klixen]

The patch will make it so you cannot select them at all, not that you cannot benefit from them. Taking SWF will remove the SM feats from the feat list as options period.
I think you should read my post again.

[Amideus]

I think you should read my post again.

I read your post just fine, I'm making a point that someone would have to go completely out of their way to bug the ability for a twist, and as far as I know they might remove that benefit from swash as well.

[autochthon]

I don't think that Buckler + Swash is a huge issue in terms of offensive gains of a buckler. You're looking at 8% doublestrike and occasional offhand attacks (without your expanded crit range or multiplier on the "free" ones) at the upper end. Cost being like three feats in a build that is already essentially guaranteed to spend 3 feats on SWF, and at least one feat on a metamagic. Before factoring crit feats or whatever.

If SWF becomes an antirequisite for Improved Shield Bash / Shield Mastery/ Improved Shield Mastery that will of cours emean skirmisher is straight up survival bonus which isn't an issue (it's actually rather interesting as a choice). If anything masteries should be tiered based on shield type. That can preserve the core identity of shield use and allow lighter shields an option in evasive builds etc.

[Oliphant]

First of all, shields are weapons. Anyone who's used a shield in real life will tell you this. They are weapons that are also very good at deflecting weapons and preventing harm towards you, and thus also count as armor. But do not doubt it. They are weapons.

I saw a documentary on these viking swords, which although are mighty weapons themselves and extremely cutting edge technology at the time, they were developed to counteract shields and shield bashing having made most swords obsolete. The shield bash is devastating and most swords will (or used to) break if they get stuck piercing (think knicking) a shield. These viking swords were almost unique at the time in that they could bend farther than most and not break. Otherwise a sword lodged in a shield could be fairly easily snapped.

[Munkenmo]

Can you think of two other feats that would have a similar DPS increase?

Improved critical / precision.

[Buffyanne]

Why are they nerfing things they just introduced? You can shoot a meteor storm thru the servers and not hit an LFM these days is it really smart strategy for a game to start nerfing one of the new things people actually like and log on to play?

[Zachski]

Pardon me, I am an idiot. I hadn't yet taken a good look at Swashbuckler and didn't realize that having bucklers work with SWF was an intentional feature of one of the Swashbuckler enhancements.

...That being said, I wonder if they realized it was too powerful, or something, and that's why they're changing it?

[autochthon]

Pardon me, I am an idiot. I hadn't yet taken a good look at Swashbuckler and didn't realize that having bucklers work with SWF was an intentional feature of one of the Swashbuckler enhancements.

...That being said, I wonder if they realized it was too powerful, or something, and that's why they're changing it?

The enhancement itself is clearly intended to be defensive. Nerfing it's (admittedly poor) offensive applications isn't really going to hurt the enhancement all that much for its intended use case and will put the offensive enhancement BiS for a raw offensive focus. That being said, there needs to be reasons to pick defensive anything because right now players want precisely two things.

Damage
Self Heals

[Chimeran1]

The enhancement itself is clearly intended to be defensive. Nerfing it's (admittedly poor) offensive applications isn't really going to hurt the enhancement all that much for its intended use case and will put the offensive enhancement BiS for a raw offensive focus. That being said, there needs to be reasons to pick defensive anything because right now players want precisely two things.

Damage
Self Heals

Bard Stalwart Defender with 1700hp, enough double strike and dps to out damage an epic SOS ... Nuff said.

[autochthon]

Bard Stalwart Defender with 1700hp, enough double strike and dps to out damage an epic SOS ... Nuff said.

That's not entirely the fault of Skirmisher though. SB gets a ton of bonuses which the increased AS of SWF pushes into the stratosphere. And a 30% doublestrike action boost for when they really wanna make things dead. To go with godly crit range etc

Really the SB tree as a whole is a better DPS tree than basically every other DPS tree. That's not skirmisher's fault, it's the way the devs approach design (changing one thing at a time which doesn't help to stave off power creep).

[Amideus]

Bard Stalwart Defender with 1700hp, enough double strike and dps to out damage an epic SOS ... Nuff said.

That's an extremely poor representation of actual dps. First of all, a 1700 health stalwart swashbuckler IS NOT going to outdamage a similarly geared ESoS toon that is focusing on damage, period. Second ESoS isn't even a major end tier 2-h anymore, with the addition of CITW and Thunder-forged, it's pretty much a nice item to have, not a must have or best damage anymore. Also the goal of THF from the feats is NOT to deal more single target damage than other weapon based builds, it's to deal with larger groups more effectively, by having higher base damage and larger cleave hits as well as stronger glancing blows for their procs and damage.

SWF has to invest more AP and more feats as well as more past lives in order to reach the kind of numbers you are talking about. It's pretty simple to understand if you would take a step back and make objective arguments rather than just ranting on the forums.

[Chimeran1]

That's an extremely poor representation of actual dps. First of all, a 1700 health stalwart swashbuckler IS NOT going to outdamage a similarly geared ESoS toon that is focusing on damage, period. Second ESoS isn't even a major end tier 2-h anymore, with the addition of CITW and Thunder-forged, it's pretty much a nice item to have, not a must have or best damage anymore. Also the goal of THF from the feats is NOT to deal more single target damage than other weapon based builds, it's to deal with larger groups more effectively, by having higher base damage and larger cleave hits as well as stronger glancing blows for their procs and damage.

SWF has to invest more AP and more feats as well as more past lives in order to reach the kind of numbers you are talking about. It's pretty simple to understand if you would take a step back and make objective arguments rather than just ranting on the forums.

Actually my dwarf was owning on dps against anyone I came across, so my argument is based on my own experience against those wielding Esos.
Perhaps you don't build or gear your swashbuckler builds like I do ( this was my 4th epic level swashbuckler )
No melee toon I've made has the damage output of my swashbuckler, and with improved bash, kensai, stalwart feats...the scaling critical is the most powerful feat in game ATM ( yeah ok my FvS does 24k crits from ruin but that's a spell caster )
I will run with my top tier CiTw rapier with a meteoric ruby slotted and epic cove buckler, the Esos can stay in the cache.
Oh... And I totally forgot about the insta kill.... How does the Esos weight up with that....?

[iPuffinstuff]

Actually my dwarf was owning on dps against anyone I came across, so my argument is based on my own experience against those wielding Esos.
Perhaps you don't build or gear your swashbuckler builds like I do ( this was my 4th epic level swashbuckler )
No melee toon I've made has the damage output of my swashbuckler, and with improved bash, kensai, stalwart feats...the scaling critical is the most powerful feat in game ATM ( yeah ok my FvS does 24k crits from ruin but that's a spell caster )
I will run with my top tier CiTw rapier with a meteoric ruby slotted and epic cove buckler, the Esos can stay in the cache.
Oh... And I totally forgot about the insta kill.... How does the Esos weight up with that....?

It owns up with it pretty well I would say. Instakill with a 12 second cool down....are you expecting me to stop swinging my esos while you wait for the timer? Have you ever used coup and fas in a full party? Good luck keeping anything fas when everyone is either trying for the most kills or there attacks effect almost every monster. Your doing great damage? Awesome for you. I also have a 12 bard 6 fighter 2 rog....do I do great damage? Absolutely, but so does the rest of the group I team with, and they are not running a swash. I also have very good gear, but is my build the end all of dps..no. I do 4200 crits, on average 1800 and the numbers fly by so fast its almost hilarious, but my bladeforged kensei monk with tier 3 thunderforged great axe does the same if not higher crits. If geared correctly and played correctly all melees can do great dps.

[QUOTE=Zachski;5400328]I have a few nitpicks to make about certain arguments in this thread.

First of all, shields are weapons. Anyone who's used a shield in real life will tell you this. They are weapons that are also very good at deflecting weapons and preventing harm towards you, and thus also count as armor. But do not doubt it. They are weapons. (As for why TWF shouldn't apply to using a sword and shield, one could posit the argument that shields are a very *unique* weapon that requires more than just "proficiency" to use, hence the shield mastery feats and the like)

Second of all, the point of the Swashbuckler is to basically go for a Flynn style fighting combat. Rapier out, fist on hip, en garde!


The word Swash means to dash against (modern dictionary meaning), and the word Buckler means a small shield. Around about the time the word first began to appear (again, in the Sixteenth Century), soldiers were yielding sword and buckler, and in dueling both men would swing their swords and dash them against their opponent's buckler (or small round shield). The use of sword and buckler can be seen all throughout history. Even the Holy Bible mentions the Mighty Men of Valour carrying Sword and Buckler. So, considering the combination of Sword and Buckler, one can presume it was the formation of the terminology of the modern "Swashbuckler!"

Know thy history good sir.

[iPuffinstuff]

Actually my dwarf was owning on dps against anyone I came across, so my argument is based on my own experience against those wielding Esos.
Perhaps you don't build or gear your swashbuckler builds like I do ( this was my 4th epic level swashbuckler )
No melee toon I've made has the damage output of my swashbuckler, and with improved bash, kensai, stalwart feats...the scaling critical is the most powerful feat in game ATM ( yeah ok my FvS does 24k crits from ruin but that's a spell caster )
I will run with my top tier CiTw rapier with a meteoric ruby slotted and epic cove buckler, the Esos can stay in the cache.
Oh... And I totally forgot about the insta kill.... How does the Esos weight up with that....?

It owns up with it pretty well I would say. Instakill with a 12 second cool down....are you expecting me to stop swinging my esos while you wait for the timer? Have you ever used coup and fas in a full party? Good luck keeping anything fas when everyone is either trying for the most kills or there attacks effect almost every monster. Your doing great damage? Awesome for you. I also have a 12 bard 6 fighter 2 rog....do I do great damage? Absolutely, but so does the rest of the group I team with, and they are not running a swash. I also have very good gear, but is my build the end all of dps..no. I do 4200 crits, on average 1800 and the numbers fly by so fast its almost hilarious, but my bladeforged kensei monk with tier 3 thunderforged great axe does the same if not higher crits. If geared correctly and played correctly all melees can do great dps.

[QUOTE=Zachski;5400328]I have a few nitpicks to make about certain arguments in this thread.

First of all, shields are weapons. Anyone who's used a shield in real life will tell you this. They are weapons that are also very good at deflecting weapons and preventing harm towards you, and thus also count as armor. But do not doubt it. They are weapons. (As for why TWF shouldn't apply to using a sword and shield, one could posit the argument that shields are a very *unique* weapon that requires more than just "proficiency" to use, hence the shield mastery feats and the like)

Second of all, the point of the Swashbuckler is to basically go for a Flynn style fighting combat. Rapier out, fist on hip, en garde!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe your not very familiar with history.....
The word Swash means to dash against (modern dictionary meaning), and the word Buckler means a small shield. Around about the time the word first began to appear (again, in the Sixteenth Century), soldiers were yielding sword and buckler, and in dueling both men would swing their swords and dash them against their opponent's buckler (or small round shield). The use of sword and buckler can be seen all throughout history. Even the Holy Bible mentions the Mighty Men of Valour carrying Sword and Buckler. So, considering the combination of Sword and Buckler, one can presume it was the formation of the terminology of the modern "Swashbuckler!"

Know thy history good sir.

On a side note..... If a swashbuckler is no longer allowed to have a buckler while swf...hmm. Thats where im getting confused. The whole enhancement tree is got to do with 1 weapon and either a shield..orb...runearm(still dont get that) or nothing. So we cant use twf..and we cant use thf... please developers in your wisdom..what shall we use then?

[Chimeran1]

Know thy history good sir.


Know thy builds good sir.
Dwarf is good, try a Bladeforge ( you need 1x LR+1, 1x alignment change, 1xLR+? )
+20% damage, power of the forge, power attack enhance, 800+ hp repair.
Bladeforge 6bard 12fighter 2rogue, or 7 bard 12fighter 1fvs and see for yourself.
Swashbucklers don't stop swinging when their insta kill is on cool down.

[Therigar]

I felt like it was very good but not necessarily too good on a bard because bards are so feat starved. However since it seems to work with SWF in general using orbs I can see why it would be made exclusive.

I wonder if this will mean that everyone will go from using a buckler to nothing in the off-hand. +10% dodge and the slot are nice but it is kind of hard to compete with the damage and doublestrike bonus.

Here is my take on this:


I do not believe I have ever participated in a developer discussion. In general I am happy to play the game and to let others debate the validity of game changes. However, I do believe that this might be a mistake.

The whole concept in single weapon fighting is to build a character that is reasonably capable without pursuing THF or TWF. SWF with a shield equates to sword and board which, until now, has been the least effective combat choice in the game. Yet, it should offer a reasonable and close alternative so that, depending on character build and gear, it rivals the other combat styles.

Adding combat power to characters using shields should be examined closely with respect to the type of shield being used with some understanding of how shields actually work in the real world. Larger shields are primarily defensive and should have little effect on combat power but rather should impact defensive power. Smaller shields are primarily offensive and should have little effect on defensive power but should impact combat power.

The Swashbuckler effect of combining bucklers with shield feats along with SWF ought not be neutered -- rather the same ability should be extended to both fighter and paladin classes to replicate real-world sword and buckler techniques. The goal ought to be to encourage sword and board builds giving players the build options that cover the range of fighting styles from the almost exclusively defensive tower shield, to the mostly defensive but minimally offensive large shield, to the balanced defensive/offensive small shield and ending with the mostly offensive but minimally defensive buckler.

I very much appreciate the Swashbuckler tree for bards. To be honest, until now I had little motive to play a bard because they add very little to a party and they become problematic as a solo character at higher levels -- at least they did for me. Now, they do too much damage and without the benefits of the shield feats they have too little protections from the aggro they pull.

That might not be true for elite players in elite groups. But it has been true for me, an ordinary player running in ordinary groups. I was forced to change epic destinies and run in Unyielding Sentinel in order to escape the damage I would get by pulling the aggro from the rest of the group (so you know, at L25 in US I'm running 28% dodge with AC 104 (65% at level) and PRR 61 (29.79% reduction) with 50% obscure due to displacement -- I'm only missing a form of ghostly).

What the game does not need is for characters like mine to become even more vulnerable due to a drop in defenses. The idea of sword and buckler is to take the relatively low defenses -- primarily represented here by PRR -- and compensate through faster, more effective killing. That is Swashbuckler as it is right now but at the forced cost of choosing an epic destiny not designed for bards.

Allowing the shield feats to stack with Swashbuckler in this way should carry over to the revised system by allowing the increase in combat power. And, it should also become the third tree in both the fighter and paladin classes with class specific modifications. For example, in fighter and paladin there should be options to enable Swashbuckling to work in medium and heavy armor and with light and heavy shields (but not tower shields).

Swashbuckling with light or heavy shields should reduce the defensive power of the shield in order to increase the offensive power of the Swashbuckling (with light shields permitting more offensive power at greater defensive cost and large shields giving less offensive power but at a lower defensive cost).

Now, I understand that the boards are dominated by players whose greatest focus is to preserve their favorite build and to ensure that it remains at the top of the power curve. And, I understand that Swashbuckling has introduced a hiccup in the otherwise well ordered universe.

But, I would argue that the hiccup is good. The greater the number of options for building EE competitive characters the greater the game variety and the greater the likelihood of keeping the most number of players at least optimistic about their ability to have a top flight character.

The solution is not to reduce bards by removing offensive power from Swashbucklers. It is to spread that wealth to the fighter and paladin classes by making their third enhancement tree look very Swashbuckler like.

The game balance becomes the trade-off of defense v offense, which is where it should be.

Do not remove this offensive power from bards. Retain it and extend it by giving a Swashbuckler like, viable, sword and board enhancement option to fighters and paladins.

[Amideus]

Actually my dwarf was owning on dps against anyone I came across, so my argument is based on my own experience against those wielding Esos.
Perhaps you don't build or gear your swashbuckler builds like I do ( this was my 4th epic level swashbuckler )
No melee toon I've made has the damage output of my swashbuckler, and with improved bash, kensai, stalwart feats...the scaling critical is the most powerful feat in game ATM ( yeah ok my FvS does 24k crits from ruin but that's a spell caster )
I will run with my top tier CiTw rapier with a meteoric ruby slotted and epic cove buckler, the Esos can stay in the cache.
Oh... And I totally forgot about the insta kill.... How does the Esos weight up with that....?

My point still stands, because everything you are basing you claims off of are subjective. Numbers breakdowns and theory crafting is important, you give neither and just assume through no other means than possibly kill count that you are dealing more dps than other people in your groups. The problem is that you don't know what they are dealing or how it compares to you. Give some breakdowns of what makes your build better and I'll take your posts into my consideration of builds, but without a numbers breakdown it means nothing.

[Chimeran1]

My point still stands, because everything you are basing you claims off of are subjective. Numbers breakdowns and theory crafting is important, you give neither and just assume through no other means than possibly kill count that you are dealing more dps than other people in your groups. The problem is that you don't know what they are dealing or how it compares to you. Give some breakdowns of what makes your build better and I'll take your posts into my consideration of builds, but without a numbers breakdown it means nothing.

It ain't rocket surgery.
Scaling threat range.
An incredibly low standard threat range
A x4 crit weapon + shield bash auto damage
Racial bonus to weapon damage
Kensai bonuses to weapon damage
Weapon damage stat of 70 constitution
High double strike rate
+5 damage in precision stance
+5 damage no offhand ( if you drop shield ) so +10 damage ( that's 20 points of strength stat on other builds ) and this stacks with the dwarfs already high constitution.

What other melee enhance line gives + 10 to damage and a bonus to double strike for 4ap?
Insta kill ( which is great for maintaining blitz , far better than a standard melee build that lacks an insta kill )

Feel free to list a build you think will out melee dps this one.
Cetus... Nope tried it, dps ain't as good.
My own Cetus build using grand master of forms and dual khopesh.... Close but nope, still doesn't crit as fast.
If you can come up with a better build please link it for me to try.... If I haven't already played it.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Swf and shield mastery both give a +20 combat style bonus to melee power, but bonuses of the same type don't normally stack, so that would be an easier/more in line with the existing rules -solution.

Imo, swf should work with all shields. S&b could use the boost anyway.

[Zachski]

They said that they planned to make an S&B line of feats along the line of SWF that would boost its viability up.

[Cetus]

Feel free to list a build you think will out melee dps this one.
Cetus... Nope tried it, dps ain't as good.
My own Cetus build using grand master of forms and dual khopesh.... Close but nope, still doesn't crit as fast.
If you can come up with a better build please link it for me to try.... If I haven't already played it.

I'm not convinced with the glancing blow changes. Beat down zeligat a few times in video pls.

[Chimeran1]

I'm not convinced with the glancing blow changes. Beat down zeligat a few times in video pls.

Builds been and gone for me, currently working on Bladeforge version.
Give it a try, higher dps than your SWF and 2HF videos posted that I watched and a lot less "fluff" :)

[burlicconi]

Just one question- i read that they gonna nerf Shield Mastery feat in a way that using SM with Singe Weapon feats will not work.
Does somebody know is it true? I didn't find anything in update's release notes. Maybe it's in ToDo list...

[N-0cturn]

Just one question- i read that they gonna nerf Shield Mastery feat in a way that using SM with Singe Weapon feats will not work.
Does somebody know is it true? I didn't find anything in update's release notes. Maybe it's in ToDo list...

It does not seem like they will change it.

When they first announced the changes to Melee Power and the Combat Feats, there was a complain that bards could get the melee power bonus from SWF and the shield feats. Then a dev replied that it was not intended that bards could take two fighting styles and they would look into it. However in the end the Melee Power Bonus from the different Fighting Styles will be the same bonus type and not stack.
On Lama you can still take SWF + Shield Mastery and I doubt this will change. Since the Melee Power does not stack there is not really an issue anymore.

No more doom.

[Holybird]

Actually my dwarf was owning on dps against anyone I came across, so my argument is based on my own experience against those wielding Esos.
Perhaps you don't build or gear your swashbuckler builds like I do ( this was my 4th epic level swashbuckler )
No melee toon I've made has the damage output of my swashbuckler, and with improved bash, kensai, stalwart feats...the scaling critical is the most powerful feat in game ATM ( yeah ok my FvS does 24k crits from ruin but that's a spell caster )
I will run with my top tier CiTw rapier with a meteoric ruby slotted and epic cove buckler, the Esos can stay in the cache.
Oh... And I totally forgot about the insta kill.... How does the Esos weight up with that....?


Actually one mad enough can use Coup with 2-hander. It doesn't need SWF. But who would do such a thing is a mystery.......

[burlicconi]

It does not seem like they will change it.

When they first announced the changes to Melee Power and the Combat Feats, there was a complain that bards could get the melee power bonus from SWF and the shield feats. Then a dev replied that it was not intended that bards could take two fighting styles and they would look into it. However in the end the Melee Power Bonus from the different Fighting Styles will be the same bonus type and not stack.
On Lama you can still take SWF + Shield Mastery and I doubt this will change. Since the Melee Power does not stack there is not really an issue anymore.

No more doom.

Ty for the answer.
But doublestrike seems to stack, no?

[CThruTheEgo]

Ty for the answer.
But doublestrike seems to stack, no?

SWF with shield mastery will get the attack speed boost from SWF, the doublestrike bonus from shield mastery (when using a shield or an orb in the offhand), the PRR from shield mastery (only when using a shield), and the melee power from only one of the fighting styles.

[MadCookieQueen]

SWF with shield mastery will get the attack speed boost from SWF, the doublestrike bonus from shield mastery (when using a shield or an orb in the offhand), the PRR from shield mastery (only when using a shield), and the melee power from only one of the fighting styles.


I thought orbs were completely removed from shield mastery.

so you can hold an orb and still at least get the double strike bonus?

[CThruTheEgo]

I thought orbs were completely removed from shield mastery.

so you can hold an orb and still at least get the double strike bonus?

I thought it still worked this way. Has it changed already? Or is it being changed with u23?

[MadCookieQueen]

I thought it still worked this way. Has it changed already? Or is it being changed with u23?

I thought it was part of the U23 changes...currently orbs work...wasn't sure if they will continue to do so.

[CThruTheEgo]

I thought it was part of the U23 changes...currently orbs work...wasn't sure if they will continue to do so.

Khain based this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448345-u23-paladin-testing-results?p=5435465) (which uses both SWF and shield mastery with orb for the doublestrike) on Lammania testing, so I assume it is currently working on Lammania. I'm not on Lammania myself, so that's the best evidence I have.

[MadCookieQueen]

Khain based this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448345-u23-paladin-testing-results?p=5435465) (which uses both SWF and shield mastery with orb for the doublestrike) on Lammania testing, so I assume it is currently working on Lammania. I'm not on Lammania myself, so that's the best evidence I have.


Thanks!

[unbongwah]

Khain based this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448345-u23-paladin-testing-results?p=5435465) (which uses both SWF and shield mastery with orb for the doublestrike) on Lammania testing, so I assume it is currently working on Lammania. I'm not on Lammania myself, so that's the best evidence I have.
I created a test build on Lama using ML this weekend and can confirm that the doublestrike bonuses from SM are still applying with orbs equipped, though the PRR is not. Or at least, the character sheet still displays the doublestrike bonus with either a shield or orb equipped; I didn't test to make sure I was actually getting the right amount of doublestrikes.

Ofc, what still works on Lama isn't necessarily what will work on live, so be sure to have a backup plan if things change.

[CThruTheEgo]

I created a test build on Lama using ML this weekend and can confirm that the doublestrike bonuses from SM are still applying with orbs equipped, though the PRR is not. Or at least, the character sheet still displays the doublestrike bonus with either a shield or orb equipped; I didn't test to make sure I was actually getting the right amount of doublestrikes.

Ofc, what still works on Lama isn't necessarily what will work on live, so be sure to have a backup plan if things change.

Thanks for the confirmation unbongwah. This does seem like one of those things that could be changed at any moment, so anyone using this combo shouldn't be surprised if it ever is changed.

[MangLord]

I'm definitely a bit reticent to take shield mastery feats on my current level 9 rogue2/bard7 build, (first time playing a swashbuckler, so I'm new to all this) because I don't want to get used to the increased PRR and doublestrike only to have them taken away on a future fix, then feel gimpy. I'm still deciding on fighter levels, given that I didn't do a STR build and I'm unsure about the amount of feats I'll have. I may take a couple fighter levels for extra feats if I feel like I really need some after level 16.

I feel like the 10% dodge is more important than 10% doublestrike, as a melee character on the front lines. A high dodge seems to be more valuable when surrounded by several enemies missing and proccing spellpower boosted sonic damage on themselves, as opposed to an extra 10% chance to doublestrike a single target. As of right now, I'll tab-target off a slivered enemy and start working on another, and they'll often kill themselves by missing me a couple times before I get back to them.

When I took level 9 and crafted a +60 Resonance ring, I tested the effectiveness on the training dummy for sonic procs on criticals. Without the +60, just raw sonic power from ranks in Perform, I dealt an average of 17.3 extra sonic damage. With the item equipped, my average jumped to 24.2. That's pretty significant at level 9, but does cost me an entire ring slot. An averaged DPS boost of 7 pts per hit before level 10 is nothing to laugh at, though.

My build is DEX based, so I opted for Precision and terrific reflex saves over the benefit of cleave feats. My goal is reflex saves around 70 at epic levels and respectable damage with a high DEX modifier, appropriate feats and drow weapon bonuses. Even with the lack of AOE melee attacks, I find that the swashbuckling crit profile and a very reliable Fascinate makes short work of most mobs, even without access to Coup yet. I really think that Precision is underrated for dealing with high fort enemies, especially when you have a 15-20 chance or better. I built for the endgame landscape, so losing my crit chance was not an option.

On my particular build, Harper INT to attack really helped my BAB and reduced my grazing hits by a lot, since I dumped STR entirely and bards have an abysmal BAB per level. I already feel like I'm going to need an extra 10-20AP to take what I feel are the bare necessities from my racial, harper and swashbuckler trees, and not even dip into warchanter, vanguard or rogue trees at all.

[CThruTheEgo]

I'm definitely a bit reticent to take shield mastery feats on my current level 9 rogue2/bard7 build, (first time playing a swashbuckler, so I'm new to all this) because I don't want to get used to the increased PRR and doublestrike only to have them taken away on a future fix, then feel gimpy.

This isn't a concern anymore. Swashbucklers specialize in SWF and are able to take an enhancement that allows them to use a shield, thus benefitting from the two styles simultaneously. They are supposed to be able to do this. The problem came with the introduction of melee power and that both style lines boost it. Instead of making the styles mutually exclusive, the devs solved this problem by making the melee power from the fighting style feat lines the same type of bonus so they wouldn't stack. There's no reason to think that shield mastery will become mutually exclusive with SWF anymore.

[MangLord]

Ok. That's really good to know. Now that bucklers don't provide any base PRR, (not sure if they ever did) will a character still benefit from the extra PRR from shield mastery, and is it capped by the changes in armor? From what I see, light armor is capped at:
"Light Armor: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if armor has enchantments. This is in addition to the current PRR bonus of 2+(Base Attack Bonus)/2)."
"Buckler: None"

At this point, I'm unclear about how much PRR I can benefit from with light armor and a buckler. I don't really understand how the system works.

Either way, if I have any extra feats I'll likely opt for shield mastery for the extra doublestrike. Maxing out Dodge still seems more important.

It doesn't feel like it should stack, but Harper INT for damage seems to be stacking with my Swashbuckler Dex for damage and SWF feat bonuses. Is this WAI?

[CThruTheEgo]

will a character still benefit from the extra PRR from shield mastery

Yes.


At this point, I'm unclear about how much PRR I can benefit from with light armor and a buckler. I don't really understand how the system works.

If I undrstand correctly, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, it is not PRR which is capped by armor, it is MRR that is capped. If I remember correctly, robes allow a max of 100 MRR and light armor allows a max of 200 MRR, while medium and heavy armors have no max MRR. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.


Maxing out Dodge still seems more important.

You don't need to take the dodge feat to max out dodge on a swashbuckler. See the build in my sig for a full dodge breakdown if you're interested.


It doesn't feel like it should stack, but Harper INT for damage seems to be stacking with my Swashbuckler Dex for damage and SWF feat bonuses. Is this WAI?

Int to damage should not stack with dex to damage. Know the angles (which is basically an int based divine might) will stack with anything.

[Tuffgar]

The only question I have right now is did any kind of change to SWF + SM go into effect with u23? What's the current state of the combo?

[CThruTheEgo]

The only question I have right now is did any kind of change to SWF + SM go into effect with u23? What's the current state of the combo?

Nothing changed. They just made it so the melee power from each line does not stack. You still get the doubletrike and PRR from shield mastery, the attack speed and 1.5 stat damage from SWF, and the 10 melee power from either one of the feat lines.

As N-Octurn stated in the OP, this has been nothing more than a Doom and Gloom thread. :D

[unbongwah]

As N-Octurn stated in the OP, this has been nothing more than a Doom and Gloom thread. :D
Not quite: some of Sev's comments during U23 beta implied they would nerf S&B Swashbucklers by making SWF and Shield Mastery feats mutually exclusive. E.g., this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446138-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-2?p=5390879&viewfull=1#post5390879): "Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect." [emphasis mine] That nerf / fix didn't make it into U23, but I haven't seen a Sev post which contradicts his earlier statements, either.

[CThruTheEgo]

Not quite: some of Sev's comments during U23 beta implied they would nerf S&B Swashbucklers by making SWF and Shield Mastery feats mutually exclusive. E.g., this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446138-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-2?p=5390879&viewfull=1#post5390879): "Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect." [emphasis mine] That nerf / fix didn't make it into U23, but I haven't seen a Sev post which contradicts his earlier statements, either.

Yeah we'll see. Given Turbine's past history, it could be years before that gets changed.

Shield mastery also works with THF so I personally don't see what the big deal is. But whatever, I won't complain if it gets changed, I'll just be glad to have two free feats on my bard. :)

[MangLord]

Unbongwah's comment was what I was concerned about. I guess a couple fighter levels never hurt for the extra feats, regardless.

[unbongwah]

Yeah we'll see. Given Turbine's past history, it could be years before that gets changed.
Yeah, obviously just because something is confirmed as not WAI doesn't mean it will be fixed soon. It's been a year since U19 "broke" TWF so it applies to animal-form druids and they still haven't fixed it.

Shield mastery also works with THF so I personally don't see what the big deal is. But whatever, I won't complain if it gets changed, I'll just be glad to have two free feats on my bard. :)
To be clear, it's not that I'm saying I want S&B Swashies to be nerfed. One of my first chars when I first started playing 5 years was a S&B drow rog / bard, so I have been waiting since then for that to become a viable combo. visionary for my own good! :cool:] Just that I'm reluctant to base a build on something I know isn't WAI, even though like you say there's no knowing when it will be nerfed: could be next patch, could be two years from now, could be never.

[CThruTheEgo]

Just that I'm reluctant to base a build on something I know isn't WAI, even though like you say there's no knowing when it will be nerfed: could be next patch, could be two years from now, could be never.

Agreed. When swashbuckler was released, there was no indication that shield mastery with swf was not WAI, so I wasn't worried about my bard. But with all the fuss lately about the different lines stacking, I'm reluctant to move forward with my plans for a paladin that uses both shield mastery and thf. I thought the discussion was over when they made the melee power from different lines not stack, but apparently not.

[MadCookieQueen]

The other day I was running around with my Bard...

when I noticed something...

When I swapped to a scroll for teleporting...it killed the Swashbuckler but then I got the shield mastery icons in my bar. But as soon as I put my shortsword back on...Swash came back and Shield Mastery went poof.

So I checked my doublestrike...

it's finicky but I gain/lose 5% depending on the order of me putting my weapon/buckler on (I'll have to double check the order when I get home tonight)...which isn't cool, especially when you swap often.


there's something not happy going on here

[Tuffgar]

I've been running a bard this life in u23 with SWF, shield mastery, vanguard, and swashbuckler. So far only lvl 8, but I've taken shield mastery and improved SWF. So far as I can tell everything is working correctly. The only thing that isn't stacking is the combat style bonus to melee power.

I haven't gone into the combat logs or done any super in-depth trials against the combat dummy, but it all appears to be working like it logically should, accorting to the tooltips and mouse-over stats.

I'm very curious to see how the final build will perform in epic levels(12brd/6fgt/2rog).

I personally don't see why the two feat lines shouldn't work together. The fact that they take up valuable feat slots should be a good enough cost. Otherwise who would ever use SWF besides bard swashbucklers with the enhancements to support it? It doesn't make sense to have an entire line of feats that only really benefits one class.

[Scrabbler]

I personally don't see why the two feat lines shouldn't work together. The fact that they take up valuable feat slots should be a good enough cost.
Because Combat Style feats are intentionally stronger than other feats, so "costs a slot" cannot be used as the balancing mechanism.

[Tuffgar]

Because Combat Style feats are intentionally stronger than other feats, so "costs a slot" cannot be used as the balancing mechanism.

Except that its not just 'a slot'. Its an entire line of feats to invest in for maximum effectiveness. Does cleave and greater cleave not work with power attack? Does spell penetration not work with evocation focus? Because you're using a sword in one hand, does it mean you shouldn't get benefits for whatever you equip in your other hand? No, of course not, since that's the tradeoff: dual weapons have more options, but require more investment of enhancements and feats to maximize.

If the individual feats are too strong, then maybe they need to be toned down a bit(not that I agree with that). But I don't see any reason to make the feats mutually exclusive.