S&B pure melee is EE Viable – Proof!

[Wongar]

OK – I'm a Dwarf with an Ax to Grind. I'm getting a bit irritated with the ongoing S&B bashing. Being a Dwarf I'd likely have cleaved several people in half by now at my perception of the insults. After all – I think pure S&B is not only viable – it is the best pure melee in the game!

To counter the argument that S&B (and non-blitzing melee in general) is a waste of a party slot, I have posted a collection of solo EE completions in the achievements.

Selected quests include the end quest of the higher level chains and a couple other quests that have been identified as being hard or impossible for a non blitzing / non evasion melee. Should provide a good sample of EE endgame content.

Summary (see achievements for screen shots and detail)

Breaking The Ranks - 65 min, 176 mobs killed, flawless
Devil Assault - 47 min, 206 mobs killed, flawless
End of the Road - 28 min, 104 mobs killed, flawless
Precious Cargo - 101 min, 134 mobs killed, 1 death
Through a Mirror - 43 min, 144 mobs killed, flawless
TOR - 42 min, 78 mobs killed, flawless
What Goes Up - 243 min*, 475 mobs killed, 1 death
* I did not spend 4 hours in quest - took several breaks due to how tedious the end fight is

There is your proof that S&B with no blitz, no ranged, and no evasion is EE viable.

Please stop insulting those of us that prefer to use heavy plate and carry a tower shied. We are not a joke, we are not a waste of a party slot, we are not piking soulstones!

[Mahalko128]

Keep in mind, with Update 23 we'll not only have PRR, but MRR (Magic Resistance Rating) as well. This should make it us on par with our scanty clothed bretheren.

[BigErkyKid]

All these are very impressive, but care to detail the build and perhaps a bit the strategy?

Also, I dare say that shielders are behind in the power curve, particularly traditional shielders with respect to the new swash shielders.

I bet one of those 12 bard, 6 fighter, 2 rogue can finish all those quests in far less time.

Not to bash your achievement, which I think is interesting.

[Wongar]

Keep in mind, with Update 23 we'll not only have PRR, but MRR (Magic Resistance Rating) as well. This should make it us on par with our scanty clothed bretheren.

Yes, MRR will make life easier for all of us. But it won't really help with what scares me the most in these quests – being immobilized. The magic damage could be addressed but being immobilized was always a real problem – and the only time I got into real trouble.

[Chauncey1]

Being in a well balanced group of experienced players helps a great deal obviously, but single class S&B fighters are absolutely viable in EE content. No doubt about it.

[Postumus]

Keep in mind, with Update 23 we'll not only have PRR, but MRR (Magic Resistance Rating) as well. This should make it us on par with our scanty clothed bretheren.

MRR? Is that even a D&D thing?

[Wongar]

All these are very impressive, but care to detail the build and perhaps a bit the strategy?

Also, I dare say that shielders are behind in the power curve, particularly traditional shielders with respect to the new swash shielders.

I bet one of those 12 bard, 6 fighter, 2 rogue can finish all those quests in far less time.

Not to bash your achievement, which I think is interesting.

If there is general interest I can post the build and some playing strategy.

I will say up front that the build is not new player friendly. It depends on numerous TRs and requires a few pieces of high end gear to solo higher EEs. (FYI - I think this is fine, I enjoy having something to work for)

Strategy is based on my playstle, it depends on being comfortable in large packs of mobs and not panicking when things go way south in a hurry. I do not depend on kiting, safe spots, or any exploits – mostly just straight up hack-n-slash with positioning. Again if there is interest I can give some examples.

I have no doubt that other builds / playstyles can run these quests faster. I do however firmly believe that a non-S&B will have a difficult time running these quicker and killing more mobs with the same constraints.

As for the swash shielders, well they are just S&B with DPS :) so sure they should be able to run faster. However, as a data point my times are not that different than other builds in the quests from your challenge.

[dunklezhan]

MRR? Is that even a D&D thing?

Because PRR is?

[dunklezhan]

I bet one of those 12 bard, 6 fighter, 2 rogue can finish all those quests in far less time.

I was thinking the same thing. I loved S&B but I only got into it right at the end of the old AC system. My S&B character then went from 'nearly top end for level' to 'middle ground' and stayed there, and I respecced in despair.

I digress. The problem isn't that S&B isn't viable at EE, its that its so slow DPS-wise compared to many of the alternatives. That means, in a group, your S&B is comparatively a lot less useful than that evasion DPSer. If you had a group full of S&Bers and one caster/healer to keep them up, I have no doubt you could completely stomp all over EE quests. But just one S&B in a group is 'adequate' at best in terms of contribution, unless you really can grab and keep aggro in a fully equipped and geared EE group, so that everyone else can flank and spank - in which case more power to you, please come and join my groups :)

[BigErkyKid]

I was thinking the same thing. I loved S&B but I only got into it right at the end of the old AC system. My S&B character then went from 'nearly top end for level' to 'middle ground' and stayed there, and I respecced in despair.

I digress. The problem isn't that S&B isn't viable at EE, its that its so slow DPS-wise compared to many of the alternatives. That means, in a group, your S&B is comparatively a lot less useful than that evasion DPSer. If you had a group full of S&Bers and one caster/healer to keep them up, I have no doubt you could completely stomp all over EE quests. But just one S&B in a group is 'adequate' at best in terms of contribution, unless you really can grab and keep aggro in a fully equipped and geared EE group, so that everyone else can flank and spank - in which case more power to you, please come and join my groups :)

In a group with higher DPSers, people with non top DPS simply don t contribute. (Unless they are say very good CCers).

Suppose you run with a blaster caster and a couple monkchers. Due to scaling, mobs will have significantly higher HPs in addition to hit harder. You will try to hit them with your axe to see them blasted away and furyshot and killed before you can even land a hit.

What matters is then the relative DPS (or other abilities). If you DPS is comparatively too low, it does not matter one bit if you could solo. You are no good for the party (again talking about DPS, one could contribute other things).

This is why more defensive builds are not well regarded in groups. For most content, if you run with "veterans, you will pawn everything so it is a matter of how fast. Someone who is a slow killer won t bring much to the completition.

In any case, I still think that finishing those quests on your shielder is a nice achievement. I was planning on a dwarf (fvs, paladin, wizzard) with the shield / armor revamp in mind. I may give it a go.

PS - by all means explain what you did and how you did it and with what equipment. Otherwise it is just a teaser, but not helpful.

[unbongwah]

MRR? Is that even a D&D thing?
No. Neither is PRR, the current Dodge system, the current AC system, Enhancements, EDs, and about a gazillion other things Turbine has modified or invented for DDO. What is your point? :cool:

[moo_cow]

OK – I'm a Dwarf with an Ax to Grind. I'm getting a bit irritated with the ongoing S&B bashing. Being a Dwarf I'd likely have cleaved several people in half by now at my perception of the insults. After all – I think pure S&B is not only viable – it is the best pure melee in the game!

To counter the argument that S&B (and non-blitzing melee in general) is a waste of a party slot, I have posted a collection of solo EE completions in the achievements.

Selected quests include the end quest of the higher level chains and a couple other quests that have been identified as being hard or impossible for a non blitzing / non evasion melee. Should provide a good sample of EE endgame content.

Summary (see achievements for screen shots and detail)

Breaking The Ranks - 65 min, 176 mobs killed, flawless
Devil Assault - 47 min, 206 mobs killed, flawless
End of the Road - 28 min, 104 mobs killed, flawless
Precious Cargo - 101 min, 134 mobs killed, 1 death
Through a Mirror - 43 min, 144 mobs killed, flawless
TOR - 42 min, 78 mobs killed, flawless
What Goes Up - 243 min*, 475 mobs killed, 1 death
* I did not spend 4 hours in quest - took several breaks due to how tedious the end fight is

There is your proof that S&B with no blitz, no ranged, and no evasion is EE viable.

Please stop insulting those of us that prefer to use heavy plate and carry a tower shied. We are not a joke, we are not a waste of a party slot, we are not piking soulstones!

Gratz on the great achievements. Any class/build can solo as long as the player is good. That doesn't necessarily make them the most efficient, so it isn't necessarily proof that they are great and uber. They aren't great dps and everyone knows it, but you can still solo with them.

[Wongar]

In a group with higher DPSers, people with non top DPS simply don t contribute. (Unless they are say very good CCers).


I don't get you position – why do you insist that my DPS is too low? Let's look at the challenge you posted when you could not figure this out:



I have a simple question. How do you guys playing effective melee characters without blitzing or mortal fear weapons?

I have struggled trying to come up with something, but I simply can't think of a way to deal enough damage.

Here is my challenge. No mortal fear, no blitz, strictly melee. Can you post a video soloing (EDIT: Epic Elite):

4. DA

Forul - Lefie (53 minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5_7...ature=youtu.be
Ancient - Shammuh (50 minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRdQZx785co&feature=youtu.be


OK – so my gimpy S&B build was able to clear DA faster as a pure melee than either of the other two who posted. That would mean that I actually killed things faster – my effective DPS was better. If we want to change the restriction of pure melee with no LD, then yes they're faster but so am I.

Are you really trying to say that Forul and Ancient are a waste of party slot and don't contribute? That's how your blanket statement that anything not a caster or archer is a waste comes across to me.

At the end of the day – DPS allowing you to kill before being killed is all that really maters. The fact that a caster can clear a room in one shot or an archer can drop a boss in in a few seconds has no bearing on my effectiveness.

[BigErkyKid]

I don't get you position – why do you insist that my DPS is too low? Let's look at the challenge you posted when you could not figure this out:




OK – so my gimpy S&B build was able to clear DA faster as a pure melee than either of the other two who posted. That would mean that I actually killed things faster – my effective DPS was better. If we want to change the restriction of pure melee with no LD, then yes they're faster but so am I.

Are you really trying to say that Forul and Ancient are a waste of party slot and don't contribute? That's how your blanket statement that anything not a caster or archer is a waste comes across to me.

At the end of the day – DPS allowing you to kill before being killed is all that really maters. The fact that a caster can clear a room in one shot or an archer can drop a boss in in a few seconds has no bearing on my effectiveness.

I am not trying to create trouble. But if casters clear rooms in one shot and archers drop bosses in a few seconds, what are people with less DPS contributing when grouping with the heavy hitters? To be clear, I dislike the obvious lack of balance between those options and melee.
So at the end of the they, when grouping, the question is are you able to kill fast enough to contribute to the group?

As for the timing. Yes, you were on the same time as them. When they were restricted. Question, is this the fastest you can do or were you "gimping" yourself?

Again, please do not take my comments as "aggro".

PS - this is detached from my challenge, that was aimed at something else.

[Gremmlynn]

OK – so my gimpy S&B build was able to clear DA faster as a pure melee than either of the other two who posted. That would mean that I actually killed things faster – my effective DPS was better. If we want to change the restriction of pure melee with no LD, then yes they're faster but so am I.

Are you really trying to say that Forul and Ancient are a waste of party slot and don't contribute? That's how your blanket statement that anything not a caster or archer is a waste comes across to me.

At the end of the day – DPS allowing you to kill before being killed is all that really maters. The fact that a caster can clear a room in one shot or an archer can drop a boss in in a few seconds has no bearing on my effectiveness.The best way to answer this would be to ask, what does your character bring to that party slot that a caster, archer or centered kensai blitzer doesn't bring more of? Hell, in a group of all of those, what does it bring that even leaving the slot empty doesn't?

[TheLegendOfAra]

Max Gratz! This certainly helps to prove that S&B builds are viable in EE.
Too bad their DPS is still teh suck. Time to TR into something good! ;p

/sarcasm off

[BD_]

In a group with higher DPSers, people with non top DPS simply don t contribute. (Unless they are say very good CCers).

Suppose you run with a blaster caster and a couple monkchers. Due to scaling, mobs will have significantly higher HPs in addition to hit harder. You will try to hit them with your axe to see them blasted away and furyshot and killed before you can even land a hit.

What matters is then the relative DPS (or other abilities). If you DPS is comparatively too low, it does not matter one bit if you could solo. You are no good for the party (again talking about DPS, one could contribute other things).

This is why more defensive builds are not well regarded in groups. For most content, if you run with "veterans, you will pawn everything so it is a matter of how fast. Someone who is a slow killer won t bring much to the completition.

In any case, I still think that finishing those quests on your shielder is a nice achievement. I was planning on a dwarf (fvs, paladin, wizzard) with the shield / armor revamp in mind. I may give it a go.

PS - by all means explain what you did and how you did it and with what equipment. Otherwise it is just a teaser, but not helpful.

With mob scaling it's harder to eburst or fury shot a room (or how about the respawning mobs in EE WGU or some of the areas in EE Grey Garl to name a few other places) to death without dying first - and they do have cooldown timers... Dead = 0 DPS. Not everyone has unlimited SP pots either...

[Wongar]

I am not trying to create trouble. But if casters clear rooms in one shot and archers drop bosses in a few seconds, what are people with less DPS contributing when grouping with the heavy hitters? To be clear, I dislike the obvious lack of balance between those options and melee.
So at the end of the they, when grouping, the question is are you able to kill fast enough to contribute to the group?

As for the timing. Yes, you were on the same time as them. When they were restricted. Question, is this the fastest you can do or were you "gimping" yourself?

Again, please do not take my comments as "aggro".

PS - this is detached from my challenge, that was aimed at something else.

No aggro taken :)

OK – so I think I see where we disagree. To me effective is to run the content reasonably well and have fun while doing it. I can run EEs solo, I can run EEs with a gimp group, I can run EEs with an ubber group, I can kill before I am killed, I can generally make things easier for any group, I can take my turn being the last Dwarf standing when things go South, I can farm most any EE I want, I am rarely a Soulstone. To me this is effective.

It seems that for you effective is dominating the kill count – in which case there can only be one effective player in any group. If kill count is that important to you – roll as caster and dominate it.

As for the times – the constraints were the ones you presented and followed regardless of what you aimed at. I'll continue to believe that no pure melee without a shield can run DA in US significantly faster. Prove me wrong or let me live in my ignorant bliss :)

To answer your question - I did a quick switch and just ran DA in LD – 35minutes, 0 consumables. Not the fastest time but respectable for a melee. How fast do I have to run it to be effective? How fast can you solo it? How fast do most melee run it? How fast does anyone run it?

[Wongar]

The best way to answer this would be to ask, what does your character bring to that party slot that a caster, archer or centered kensai blitzer doesn't bring more of? Hell, in a group of all of those, what does it bring that even leaving the slot empty doesn't?


Max Gratz! This certainly helps to prove that S&B builds are viable in EE.
Too bad their DPS is still teh suck. Time to TR into something good! ;p

/sarcasm off

OK – so why the hate? Sure casters, archers can do more DPS. That's the way of the current DDO world and I think you will find few who argue with that view. How does that detract from the effectiveness of other builds?

[Oxarhamar]

If there is general interest I can post the build and some playing strategy.

I will say up front that the build is not new player friendly. It depends on numerous TRs and requires a few pieces of high end gear to solo higher EEs. (FYI - I think this is fine, I enjoy having something to work for)

Strategy is based on my playstle, it depends on being comfortable in large packs of mobs and not panicking when things go way south in a hurry. I do not depend on kiting, safe spots, or any exploits – mostly just straight up hack-n-slash with positioning. Again if there is interest I can give some examples.

I have no doubt that other builds / playstyles can run these quests faster. I do however firmly believe that a non-S&B will have a difficult time running these quicker and killing more mobs with the same constraints.

As for the swash shielders, well they are just S&B with DPS :) so sure they should be able to run faster. However, as a data point my times are not that different than other builds in the quests from your challenge.

Oh I'd just ignore this guy OP

he's a lot of hot air on the forums calling others liars and exploiters without video proof of thier achievements but, can't provide screen shots even for claims he's made. Then starts or contributes to threads with no ingame experience. Admittedly not able to solo any of those quests in the challenge even with blitz.

[BigErkyKid]

Oh I'd just ignore this guy OP

he's a lot of hot air on the forums calling others liars and exploiters without video proof of thier achievements but, can't provide screen shots even for claims he's made. Then starts or contributes to threads with no ingame experience. Admittedly not able to solo any of those quests in the challenge even with blitz.

Would you leave me alone, man? You come lurking to every single thread I comment on and try to discredit me. People who run with me know my "worth" as a player and that is sufficient for me. I am having a civil discussion with Wongar, no need to turn it into a flaming war.

[BigErkyKid]

No aggro taken :)

OK – so I think I see where we disagree. To me effective is to run the content reasonably well and have fun while doing it. I can run EEs solo, I can run EEs with a gimp group, I can run EEs with an ubber group, I can kill before I am killed, I can generally make things easier for any group, I can take my turn being the last Dwarf standing when things go South, I can farm most any EE I want, I am rarely a Soulstone. To me this is effective.

It seems that for you effective is dominating the kill count – in which case there can only be one effective player in any group. If kill count is that important to you – roll as caster and dominate it.

As for the times – the constraints were the ones you presented and followed regardless of what you aimed at. I'll continue to believe that no pure melee without a shield can run DA in US significantly faster. Prove me wrong or let me live in my ignorant bliss :)

To answer your question - I did a quick switch and just ran DA in LD – 35minutes, 0 consumables. Not the fastest time but respectable for a melee. How fast do I have to run it to be effective? How fast can you solo it? How fast do most melee run it? How fast does anyone run it?

First of all, Let me tell you that the fact that you can do this with a shielder speaks to your prowess as a player. No sarcasm. But what I am refering to here is to the fact that there are currently a few archetypes / builds in DDO that put the rest to shame.

No matter how good your S&B is, most probably, with equal player skill, one of the currently brokenly powerful builds would be a better contribution to the party. It is not about the kill count, it is about the DPS / CC you bring to the table. I think we will agree that a blitzing monkcher or a top draconic sorc will just kill everything before you even get to land a hit. At the same time, they ll be extremely survivable due to kiting being the best defense.

So given that those builds are without doubt more powerful and that kiting is the best aggro and damage mitigation strategy, given equal "skill", what do other builds bring to a group? This is the drama in terms of build possibilities that DDO suffers right now, IMHO.

[Takllin]

First of all, Let me tell you that the fact that you can do this with a shielder speaks to your prowess as a player. No sarcasm. But what I am refering to here is to the fact that there are currently a few archetypes / builds in DDO that put the rest to shame.

No matter how good your S&B is, most probably, with equal player skill, one of the currently brokenly powerful builds would be a better contribution to the party. It is not about the kill count, it is about the DPS / CC you bring to the table. I think we will agree that a blitzing monkcher or a top draconic sorc will just kill everything before you even get to land a hit. At the same time, they ll be extremely survivable due to kiting being the best defense.

So given that those builds are without doubt more powerful and that kiting is the best aggro and damage mitigation strategy, given equal "skill", what do other builds bring to a group? This is the drama in terms of build possibilities that DDO suffers right now, IMHO.

This is so incredibly untrue, I happen to run with the better players on Argo, who play all kinds of builds. I've run my gimp builds that were just for past lives, and the high DPS builds. On both, I most certainly get hits in because I'm pretty sure I see my name with a bunch of numbers next to it on the Monsters Killed area of the XP sheet...

Other builds bring the same thing that the uber elite builds do as well, just not as efficient or powerful.

How can you say it is not about kill count, but CC and DPS. The next line you state that moncher and DI sorcerers will kill everything before you land a hit? Fact is they don't kill things that quickly, I've played both builds at endgame, and played with many others that are better than myself. You get a Slayer Arrow once every 20 seconds, and Adrenaline you need to recharge, though you do get it a lot. As a DI Sorc, you need to debuff the mobs, then cast Mass Hold, and then run in to use E Burst...You can't just simply flick your wrist and kill everything instantly before a melee can land a hit.

Either your using extreme exaggerations to get a biased opinion across, or you live in a fantasy world. I'm not sure which one it is.

@ OP, saw the SS, great achievements. Not what I personally would consider a typical S&B melee but nonetheless grats.

[Oxarhamar]

Would you leave me alone, man? You come lurking to every single thread I comment on and try to discredit me. People who run with me know my "worth" as a player and that is sufficient for me. I am having a civil discussion with Wongar, no need to turn it into a flaming war.

As I said before no one is lurking just read the threads that draw my attention and there you are spouting nonsence based on thing you watch pn YouTube rather than in game experience.

You discredit yourself stick to that which you know rather than harassing those who achieve what you cannot then asking for thier build so you can copy and paste it.


Here OP achieved something you cannot and your the first to jump in and say OP has low DPS.

[ReaperAlexEU]

If there is general interest I can post the build and some playing strategy.

I will say up front that the build is not new player friendly. It depends on numerous TRs and requires a few pieces of high end gear to solo higher EEs. (FYI - I think this is fine, I enjoy having something to work for)

Strategy is based on my playstle, it depends on being comfortable in large packs of mobs and not panicking when things go way south in a hurry. I do not depend on kiting, safe spots, or any exploits – mostly just straight up hack-n-slash with positioning. Again if there is interest I can give some examples.

I have no doubt that other builds / playstyles can run these quests faster. I do however firmly believe that a non-S&B will have a difficult time running these quicker and killing more mobs with the same constraints.

As for the swash shielders, well they are just S&B with DPS :) so sure they should be able to run faster. However, as a data point my times are not that different than other builds in the quests from your challenge.

i've been working on my S&B paly recently, so yes, i'd love to see how you put your dwarf together (we all know dwarves are assembled not born).

my build still needs a rework (doesn't even have the heal skill after that was added to spell power for healing), but i've decided to put reincarnation on hold until we get the paly+armour changes. for now just moving to divine crusader has made a massive difference to my questing. next up i think will be some better gear (cos farming in destiny is a lot more fun than farming off destinies), so i'd be interested to see how you managed to slot things together.

[Nightmanis]

Max Gratz! This certainly helps to prove that S&B builds are viable in EE.
Too bad their DPS is still teh suck. Time to TR into something good! ;p

/sarcasm off

</3

[TheLegendOfAra]

</3
What, I said they were viable! :p
Besides, you're clearly a DPS build.

[Blackheartox]

Interesting achievement opener, can assume wyrm and peaks gear helped alot.
You got belt? I dont see any build as useless if it has correct gear. But... Why do we say sb are useless comes from a misconception.
Issue is most s/b in parties you meet wont have top end gear nor past lifes, they will have just a massive hp pool and thats about it.
But you could translate this to some other builds as well, example a draconic pure sorc without dcs to properly cc will also be a waste of slot, a pale who cant instakill, a blitzer who cant keep blitz up etc etc.
It boils down to the one stearing the character and the drivers knowledge/effort to make the thing hes driving good.

And for the sake of civil discussion, why do you think they will add a shield dps prestige ? Definitely not because current defender tree has amazing dps. Logic wins
I personally would post threads how useless sb are so that they make the change faster. But thats just me, i wasted 5 years on making threads how useless bards are, and look at it now, it finally gave birth to some juicy fruits

[kierg10]

This is so incredibly untrue, I happen to run with the better players on Argo, .

But you run with me! ;)

[MonadRebelion]

OK – I'm a Dwarf with an Ax to Grind. I'm getting a bit irritated with the ongoing S&B bashing. Being a Dwarf I'd likely have cleaved several people in half by now at my perception of the insults. After all – I think pure S&B is not only viable – it is the best pure melee in the game!

To counter the argument that S&B (and non-blitzing melee in general) is a waste of a party slot, I have posted a collection of solo EE completions in the achievements.

Selected quests include the end quest of the higher level chains and a couple other quests that have been identified as being hard or impossible for a non blitzing / non evasion melee. Should provide a good sample of EE endgame content.

Summary (see achievements for screen shots and detail)

Breaking The Ranks - 65 min, 176 mobs killed, flawless
Devil Assault - 47 min, 206 mobs killed, flawless
End of the Road - 28 min, 104 mobs killed, flawless
Precious Cargo - 101 min, 134 mobs killed, 1 death
Through a Mirror - 43 min, 144 mobs killed, flawless
TOR - 42 min, 78 mobs killed, flawless
What Goes Up - 243 min*, 475 mobs killed, 1 death
* I did not spend 4 hours in quest - took several breaks due to how tedious the end fight is

There is your proof that S&B with no blitz, no ranged, and no evasion is EE viable.

Please stop insulting those of us that prefer to use heavy plate and carry a tower shied. We are not a joke, we are not a waste of a party slot, we are not piking soulstones!

I absolutely agree that there is nothing wrong with tanks. It's very hard to understand why so many people continue to clamor for buffing everything. Pretty soon we're going to just walk up to quest givers and get xp and loot. All the monsters are going to just leave the game, because they know we're there.

[kierg10]

I absolutely agree that there is nothing wrong with tanks. It's very hard to understand why so many people continue to clamor for buffing everything. Pretty soon we're going to just walk up to quest givers and get xp and loot. All the monsters are going to just leave the game, because they know we're there.

Sword and board dps is fine.

Having a tank is absolutely pointless as not only will a billion other builds hold aggro better than you, but they also have better dps and survivability than a tank.

[MonadRebelion]

Here is something that is crazy-making about threads like these.

OP: Here is something I achieved on a build everyone says is worthless.

Forumite: While you may have achieved something most of us didn't think was possible, you could have accomplished the feat(s) in question more efficiently on a build everyone recognizes can easily accomplish said feat(s).

OP: When you look at my completion times they compare well to the completion times of builds widely recognized as capable of accomplishing the feat(s) that was/were supposed to be impossible for me.

Formite: Despite comparable completion times those other builds would have done it more efficiently.

OP: You keep claiming other builds could do what I did more efficiently as if it was somehow an objection to what I did. It can be true that other builds can do what I did more efficiently. In fact, I'll even grant that this is true. However, what showed in my original post is that a feat most people thought couldn't be done on my build can be. I said nothing by way of comparing its efficiency to other builds. That said, I fail to see how your objection to my accomplishment via efficiency is supposed to work. By my lights, what you have said is an irrelevant distraction.

Formite: Sorry, you have failed to prove your build is as efficient as any of the builds I believe are more efficient.

OP: OK, thanks for your contribution. I guess I'll just have to reflect harder on the mysteries you so nobly attempted to enlighten for me.

[BigErkyKid]

Alright, my apologies OP. You posted in the spirit of my "challenge" and I replied in a completely different note. Let me try to explain why.

The way I see it, there are several different discussions here.


1. Balance of power between melees

I posted a challenge: soloing some hard EEs without blitz or mortal fear. From that challenge we learnt that:

a. It is possible to beat even the hardest quests without the top DPS options for melees.

b. Some builds that work with blitz / mortal fear do not work so well without it. E.g. Cetus' centered BF could not complete breaking the ranks, but a tanky swashbuckler could.

c. Renouncing to mortal fear / blitz diminishes DPS greatly. Completition times are way longer, from 2 to 3 times the time records of the best DPS melee builds.

In that regard, your completitions fit well what we learnt. Your build can do stuff that the top DPS builds cannot without blitz / mortal fear, yet it takes much longer compared to the DPSers' best times. So ultimately, there are builds that are more powerful (everything considered) than others. Traditional S&B is not among the top in terms of power, at least with the evidence at hand (and removing swash builds).



2. Top ranged builds in DDO compared to melees

Ad the game stands, kiting is the best strategy to beat content. Aside of perching, of course. There are some builds that can deal the best DPS in the game while kiting and hence those dominate the current scene. There is a reason why a lot of raids have been completed on monkchers and casters that a melee build has not ever dreamed of finishing.


3. Contribution to groups by different archetypes

This is what I think follows from the above.

a. The fact that a build is viable solo does not make it a contributor to a party.

The reason is that what matters is the relative DPS between builds. If I have a build that deals 100 DPS but finishes tough quests because has great self healing and defenses and I put it together with another that has 500 DPS, odds are that mobs are going down from the second's build DPS and not from mine. As an example, suppose I am running on my 100 DPS build and a draconic sorc mass holds a group of mobs and bursts it. What has been my contribution?

b. In most of the cases it is strictly preferred, in terms of completition, to run a group of the most powerful builds.

Suppose my aim is to finish a quest/raid in the fastest time and the least painful way. Then, using the most powerful builds available dominates using any less powerful ones. It is obvious, yet very sad. When a lot of valid and viable (proven solo capacity, for instance) builds are completely outpowered by others, they tend to contribute little to nothing to the party. If we were to compute the opportunity cost, always in the terms above, of having a less than optimal build using up a party slot it would be high.

Example, thunderpeaks can be best completed with a few monkchers (or shuricannons, or proficient arcanes). Sure, it can be done with other builds, but it will be less efficient.


Now, does this mean that people can not play and have fun without using the "top builds"? Not at all. I never said that. But I still think all the above holds.

PS - Contribution or not aside, it is not fun, at least for me, to play in a party where everyone outpowers me.

[janave]

nevermind
its in another thread...

[dunklezhan]

Here is something that is crazy-making about threads like these.

OP: Here is something I achieved on a build everyone says is worthless.

Forumite: While you may have achieved something most of us didn't think was possible, you could have accomplished the feat(s) in question more efficiently on a build everyone recognizes can easily accomplish said feat(s).

OP: When you look at my completion times they compare well to the completion times of builds widely recognized as capable of accomplishing the feat(s) that was/were supposed to be impossible for me.

Formite: Despite comparable completion times those other builds would have done it more efficiently.

OP: You keep claiming other builds could do what I did more efficiently as if it was somehow an objection to what I did. It can be true that other builds can do what I did more efficiently. In fact, I'll even grant that this is true. However, what showed in my original post is that a feat most people thought couldn't be done on my build can be. I said nothing by way of comparing its efficiency to other builds. That said, I fail to see how your objection to my accomplishment via efficiency is supposed to work. By my lights, what you have said is an irrelevant distraction.

Formite: Sorry, you have failed to prove your build is as efficient as any of the builds I believe are more efficient.

OP: OK, thanks for your contribution. I guess I'll just have to reflect harder on the mysteries you so nobly attempted to enlighten for me.



Ooh! Ooh! Now do what happens when someone suggests pure builds need a boost but that this does not mean nerfing multiclasses!




(I started off in this thread talking about comparative DPS. That was before I realised there had been some kind of competition to post times and that these times were in fact quite comparable. So I feel silly but i don't believe in retconning so I left my post where it was).

[dunklezhan]

2. Top ranged builds in DDO compared to melees


Ad the game stands, kiting is the best strategy to beat content. Aside of perching, of course. There are some builds that can deal the best DPS in the game while kiting and hence those dominate the current scene. There is a reason why a lot of raids have been completed on monkchers and casters that a melee build has not ever dreamed of finishing.



Unbelievable. When I started playing kiting was like the worst sin in the game because of the effect on other players. Now, if you're not solo-kiting you're inferior. (I'm not commenting on you BEK, you have stated Truth. It's the Truth I have a problem with).

Y'know, maybe it IS time I quit this game if attitudes have descended to that just because its 'easy'. Kiting was always easy.


God it's like fashion at high school all over again. We all sat there mocking the open university videos we had to watch from time to time in early high school - flares, awful patterns and all that 70s nonsense. We got to our mid teens (early 90s) and suddenly that was all back in, and without any irony at all everyone (else) started wearing the stuff. EVeryone was now mocking 80s fashion. Fast forward 20 years and 80s fashion is back in and without any irony at all.... folks who were mocking it are now wearing it. Again and again and again, while the clothing industry just rubs it's hands together and waits to launch the next add campaign to tell y'all what looks good.

Ugh. Sheeple.

Honestly, fashion and media are all of humanity in a nutshell. What happens there happens in every walk of life. Hurry up and go extinct already mankind, we've reached the point where we're going in circles, it's time to give it up. The universe has had enough. It's probably only a matter of time before we decide nukes and concentration camps are a good idea again.


/sigh. That might have been a bit harsh for a monday morning, but I swear, if you could get me a painless gas I could distribute world wide so that no-one had to suffer... Make no mistake, I'd kill us all. We've had the aquatic age, the age of giant insects, the age or reptiles, the age of mammals. I think its about time the fungus had a go.

Back to sword and board....

[aylard82]

The same old Elitist vs Creativity thread that pops up in every online game where nobody is right or wrong. Beats me.

[Wongar]

Here is something that is crazy-making about threads like these.

OP: Here is something I achieved on a build everyone says is worthless.

Forumite: While you may have achieved something most of us didn't think was possible, you could have accomplished the feat(s) in question more efficiently on a build everyone recognizes can easily accomplish said feat(s).

OP: When you look at my completion times they compare well to the completion times of builds widely recognized as capable of accomplishing the feat(s) that was/were supposed to be impossible for me.

Formite: Despite comparable completion times those other builds would have done it more efficiently.

OP: You keep claiming other builds could do what I did more efficiently as if it was somehow an objection to what I did. It can be true that other builds can do what I did more efficiently. In fact, I'll even grant that this is true. However, what showed in my original post is that a feat most people thought couldn't be done on my build can be. I said nothing by way of comparing its efficiency to other builds. That said, I fail to see how your objection to my accomplishment via efficiency is supposed to work. By my lights, what you have said is an irrelevant distraction.

Formite: Sorry, you have failed to prove your build is as efficient as any of the builds I believe are more efficient.

OP: OK, thanks for your contribution. I guess I'll just have to reflect harder on the mysteries you so nobly attempted to enlighten for me.

Love this post!

You captured my feelings exactly!

Thank you for sharing your insight :)

[Wongar]

...

1. Balance of power between melees
...
I posted a challenge: soloing some hard EEs without blitz or mortal fear. From that challenge we learnt that:
...

2. Top ranged builds in DDO compared to melees

Ad the game stands, kiting is the best strategy to beat content. Aside of perching, of course. There are some builds that can deal the best DPS in the game while kiting and hence those dominate the current scene. There is a reason why a lot of raids have been completed on monkchers and casters that a melee build has not ever dreamed of finishing.


3. Contribution to groups by different archetypes
...
a. The fact that a build is viable solo does not make it a contributor to a party.
...
b. In most of the cases it is strictly preferred, in terms of completition, to run a group of the most powerful builds.
...
PS - Contribution or not aside, it is not fun, at least for me, to play in a party where everyone outpowers me.

For starters please
read this post

For you section 1:
If one build can meet a challenge and another build can not than I think it clearly shows one build is effective and the other is not at that challenge. No Cetus build (including Cetus) was able to do your challenge so it seems that a Cetus build would not be effective at this challenge.

I don't really care to compare – the build works for me and that is all that is important to me. However if you insist on comparing other builds I have not seen many (any really) other melee build post solos of Precious Cargo and Through a Mirror so that would indicate this build is successful where others are not.

For you section 2:
Personally I hate to kite and do not enjoy playing with kiters; therefore, kiting is NOT the best strategy to beat content.

For you section 3:
Again you state a lot of opinion as fact – all of which I disagree with. You also continue to gloss over the evidence that I actually have respectable DPS. In any event I prefer to run with fun people, I could really care less about the power of their build. Fact is that just about any group can run EEs – the most ubber build is not required. Find something you have fun playing and play it – that is what the game is about.

Lastly I would say that any build that can solo content can contribute in a group - soloing it clearly proves that the build is capable of handling the content and can contribute to a completion.

I think we can agree to disagree and move on.

[BigErkyKid]

For starters please

For you section 1:
If one build can meet a challenge and another build can not than I think it clearly shows one build is effective and the other is not at that challenge. No Cetus build (including Cetus) was able to do your challenge so it seems that a Cetus build would not be effective at this challenge.

I don't really care to compare – the build works for me and that is all that is important to me. However if you insist on comparing other builds I have not seen many (any really) other melee build post solos of Precious Cargo and Through a Mirror so that would indicate this build is successful where others are not.

For you section 2:
Personally I hate to kite and do not enjoy playing with kiters; therefore, kiting is NOT the best strategy to beat content.

For you section 3:
Again you state a lot of opinion as fact – all of which I disagree with. You also continue to gloss over the evidence that I actually have respectable DPS. In any event I prefer to run with fun people, I could really care less about the power of their build. Fact is that just about any group can run EEs – the most ubber build is not required. Find something you have fun playing and play it – that is what the game is about.

Lastly I would say that any build that can solo content can contribute in a group - soloing it clearly proves that the build is capable of handling the content and can contribute to a completion.

I think we can agree to disagree and move on.



First of all, the reason why I apologized is because you posted this (or at least I recall reading that) as some further "observation" towards the melee viability discussion. When I answered, I did not have in mind melee only, rather, a general comparison.

Within the melee realm, which is point 1, if we restrict to the challenge, your build did very well. Indeed as I pointed out, a lot of people failed at it. People with uber geared characters and players who are regarded as very proficient. So nice and an achievement on your end,as I said multiple times. Outside the challenge, people run those quests way faster. In pure melees. So in that sense, while you may prefer your playstyle, with the evidence we have we can only conclude that they are more powerful.

Finally, there is the discussion regarding whether someone who has suboptimal DPS can contribute to a party. This is highly unlikely to be settled, the reason is that it very quickly gets personal. If build 1 has abysmally more DPS than build 2 and still has relatively good defenses, to me it is clear that at equal skill a party composed of 1s will perform better than a party that is made of 2s. I fail to see how this is up for discussion, but if I am wrong, I am totally open to someone telling me why.

Now, does this mean that we should all play FOTM builds? No. Play, as you say, whatever is fun. For me, shielders are fun. Yet, in a context where other people that I run with dominate the quest, they are not fun. hence I don't play them atm. Can you roll a shielder and still contribute to quests? Yes, most likely. Skill and quest knowledge is not evenly distributed, not all sorcs and monkchers and whatever are equally capable and geared and many other reasons. But at the optimum, the problem remains.

To me, this thread can be easily misunderstood as all is fine for shielders. And I couldn't disagree more with that statement.

[jalont]

Here is something that is crazy-making about threads like these.

OP: Here is something I achieved on a build everyone says is worthless.

Forumite: While you may have achieved something most of us didn't think was possible, you could have accomplished the feat(s) in question more efficiently on a build everyone recognizes can easily accomplish said feat(s).

OP: When you look at my completion times they compare well to the completion times of builds widely recognized as capable of accomplishing the feat(s) that was/were supposed to be impossible for me.

Formite: Despite comparable completion times those other builds would have done it more efficiently.

OP: You keep claiming other builds could do what I did more efficiently as if it was somehow an objection to what I did. It can be true that other builds can do what I did more efficiently. In fact, I'll even grant that this is true. However, what showed in my original post is that a feat most people thought couldn't be done on my build can be. I said nothing by way of comparing its efficiency to other builds. That said, I fail to see how your objection to my accomplishment via efficiency is supposed to work. By my lights, what you have said is an irrelevant distraction.

Formite: Sorry, you have failed to prove your build is as efficient as any of the builds I believe are more efficient.

OP: OK, thanks for your contribution. I guess I'll just have to reflect harder on the mysteries you so nobly attempted to enlighten for me.

Just to be clear, I'm someone that firmly believes this game is entirely too easy and anything can easily solo EE. And I still believe that a SB toon is inefficient. In a game this easy, all that really matters is completion times, and no SB build is near the top.

[Wipey]

This is really cool !
Really tough solos on a fleshy melee, you don't really have to say more or defend your build/toon. Or even hide yer toon name.

Anyone whining at op, you can always start your own achievements thread if you got cojones for that. If not, be quiet and bow down to op's awesomeness.
It is really difficult.

[Xyfiel]

I saw the other thread of accomplishments and I would not consider something with 12 Fvs levels, aura of purification, and consecration a pure melee. Is that information incorrect? How you claim no offensive spells and have consecration? Granted you also run in US sometimes.

If we are talking S&B my sorc multi uses adamantine body, a tower shield, and main destiny is Crusader. Under this criteria I would say I am one of the best Sword and Board dps going.

I am glad you like your build and the playstyle, but the complaints of S&B as a melee option being low dps have merit.

[Miow]

Proof that this type of character can solo and complete pretty much anything in game = nice. None can argue, it is slowly :).

[Takllin]

First of all, the reason why I apologized is because you posted this (or at least I recall reading that) as some further "observation" towards the melee viability discussion. When I answered, I did not have in mind melee only, rather, a general comparison.

Within the melee realm, which is point 1, if we restrict to the challenge, your build did very well. Indeed as I pointed out, a lot of people failed at it. People with uber geared characters and players who are regarded as very proficient. So nice and an achievement on your end,as I said multiple times. Outside the challenge, people run those quests way faster. In pure melees. So in that sense, while you may prefer your playstyle, with the evidence we have we can only conclude that they are more powerful.

Finally, there is the discussion regarding whether someone who has suboptimal DPS can contribute to a party. This is highly unlikely to be settled, the reason is that it very quickly gets personal. If build 1 has abysmally more DPS than build 2 and still has relatively good defenses, to me it is clear that at equal skill a party composed of 1s will perform better than a party that is made of 2s. I fail to see how this is up for discussion, but if I am wrong, I am totally open to someone telling me why.

Now, does this mean that we should all play FOTM builds? No. Play, as you say, whatever is fun. For me, shielders are fun. Yet, in a context where other people that I run with dominate the quest, they are not fun. hence I don't play them atm. Can you roll a shielder and still contribute to quests? Yes, most likely. Skill and quest knowledge is not evenly distributed, not all sorcs and monkchers and whatever are equally capable and geared and many other reasons. But at the optimum, the problem remains.

To me, this thread can be easily misunderstood as all is fine for shielders. And I couldn't disagree more with that statement.

Last I checked, he has not posted any runs of his build using Mortal Fear, or Blitz. So how can you assume that his build using those would be "way" worse than those players and builds that entered your challenge? You know what assuming does, right?

No one has said that you are wrong in saying that a group of better end game builds would perform at a higher level and more efficiently than a group with less DPS and CC. What other posters such as myself are arguing with you about, is your assertions that if a build does not have as much DPS as a DI Sorc, Moncher or Blitzing Cetus' build, they are of no contribution to the party. THAT is where you are wrong.

He also said that S&B is viable in EEs, which they are. He did not state that S&B is doing amazing and crushing content in EEs, and do not need any buffs or enhancement changes. He even posted that to be viable, you need to either have a healer strapped on your back or be very self sufficient.

[harry-pancreas]

MRR? Is that even a D&D thing?

nope. But PRR, dodge...are those D&D things?

[IronClan]

Here is something that is crazy-making about threads like these.

OP: Here is something I achieved on a build everyone says is worthless.

Forumite: While you may have achieved something most of us didn't think was possible, you could have accomplished the feat(s) in question more efficiently on a build everyone recognizes can easily accomplish said feat(s).

OP: When you look at my completion times they compare well to the completion times of builds widely recognized as capable of accomplishing the feat(s) that was/were supposed to be impossible for me.

Formite: Despite comparable completion times those other builds would have done it more efficiently.

OP: You keep claiming other builds could do what I did more efficiently as if it was somehow an objection to what I did. It can be true that other builds can do what I did more efficiently. In fact, I'll even grant that this is true. However, what showed in my original post is that a feat most people thought couldn't be done on my build can be. I said nothing by way of comparing its efficiency to other builds. That said, I fail to see how your objection to my accomplishment via efficiency is supposed to work. By my lights, what you have said is an irrelevant distraction.

Formite: Sorry, you have failed to prove your build is as efficient as any of the builds I believe are more efficient.

OP: OK, thanks for your contribution. I guess I'll just have to reflect harder on the mysteries you so nobly attempted to enlighten for me.

This describes every argument where someone was proven wrong in the history of the internet. And it keeps going, eventually the person(s) contending the dis-proven premise denies ever having contended that, and the cycle of internet perpetual correction without having been wrong continues.

[BigErkyKid]

Last I checked, he has not posted any runs of his build using Mortal Fear, or Blitz. So how can you assume that his build using those would be "way" worse than those players and builds that entered your challenge? You know what assuming does, right?

No one has said that you are wrong in saying that a group of better end game builds would perform at a higher level and more efficiently than a group with less DPS and CC. What other posters such as myself are arguing with you about, is your assertions that if a build does not have as much DPS as a DI Sorc, Moncher or Blitzing Cetus' build, they are of no contribution to the party. THAT is where you are wrong.

He also said that S&B is viable in EEs, which they are. He did not state that S&B is doing amazing and crushing content in EEs, and do not need any buffs or enhancement changes. He even posted that to be viable, you need to either have a healer strapped on your back or be very self sufficient.


Well, since he posted all those in achievements, I assume he did his best. Am I supposed to assume otherwise?

Regarding his playstyle, I am going to bet that it consists on throwing a consecration at circle moving around them cleaving. Since he has a lot of FVS consecration can hit hard. How likely is it that he can engage in this playstyle in groups?

In any case, I explicitely said you can be a contribution. But if we pick a group of top players using fully geared top builds, then I bet that a shielder is of very little use. Will we disagree?

And I think that this is something bad. He has a working build, he has merit. Why are some builds so incredibly above the others? I am not going against his achievement, rather, in favor of it. A build that is smartly designed and can clearly beat content should by no means be so underpowered compared to some of the stuff out there.

[Wongar]

I saw the other thread of accomplishments and I would not consider something with 12 Fvs levels, aura of purification, and consecration a pure melee. Is that information incorrect? How you claim no offensive spells and have consecration? Granted you also run in US sometimes.

If we are talking S&B my sorc multi uses adamantine body, a tower shield, and main destiny is Crusader. Under this criteria I would say I am one of the best Sword and Board dps going.

I am glad you like your build and the playstyle, but the complaints of S&B as a melee option being low dps have merit.

I think a little S&B competition would be fun - so Challenge Accepted!

You clear your spell book of all offensive spells and run DA and Breaking the Ranks in US with no offensive spell twists. Post some SS of your results.

I can not complete Breaking the Ranks in US - I do not have enough DPS to get past the Giant Shaman healing when there are 4 or 5 of them so you auto win with a Breaking the Ranks flawless in US. However I think I can shave a bit off my time in DA in US so I get a chance to beat your DA time.

Picking these two quests because they are the best case scenarios for S&B DPS and you pretty much need to kill everything. Picking US as its the classic S&B destiny :)

250 Tasty hams to the winner!

Heck this may be a fun challenge for anybody who thinks they have an ubber melee build - be king of raw DPS - get the fastest EE DA time in US with no ranged and no offensive spells.



Agreed 12 FVS is unconventional for a melee - but you need a ton of self healing if you want to solo end game EEs. All my AP is spent in melee trees. As for DC - it gives good melee boosts and healing even without the aura - enough to get me past the self healing mobs.

For the record, I also believe that S&B needs help. My first dozen or so Epic lifes on this build were very challenging - if it was not for my somewhat unhealthy like of S&B and Dwarfs I would have given up long before I figured it out. I can run most of the EE quests in US - but it does take longer. My fastest configuration on this build is to shift AP into AoV and run in DC with Energy Burst Twisted - pretty much trivializes content.

Like everyone I have some ideas on how to help S&B, perhaps we should start a thread on S&B suggested enhancements to give the devs some ideas.

[Takllin]

Well, since he posted all those in achievements, I assume he did his best. Am I supposed to assume otherwise?

Regarding his playstyle, I am going to bet that it consists on throwing a consecration at circle moving around them cleaving. Since he has a lot of FVS consecration can hit hard. How likely is it that he can engage in this playstyle in groups?


Again, your assuming...you could take it at face value for what its worth. In his OP, he writes about not using Blitz, to prove a point that his S&B build is viable. Also happens that he doesn't use Mortal Fear either.

I know of, and have seen many people use Consecration very well in group play. Have you run Epic Elites? Entire mobs do not just die with the flick of a wrist...



In any case, I explicitely said you can be a contribution. But if we pick a group of top players using fully geared top builds, then I bet that a shielder is of very little use. Will we disagree?

And I think that this is something bad. He has a working build, he has merit. Why are some builds so incredibly above the others? I am not going against his achievement, rather, in favor of it. A build that is smartly designed and can clearly beat content should by no means be so underpowered compared to some of the stuff out there.

Well, considering you stated this earlier in this thread:


In a group with higher DPSers, people with non top DPS simply don t contribute. (Unless they are say very good CCers).

Suppose you run with a blaster caster and a couple monkchers. Due to scaling, mobs will have significantly higher HPs in addition to hit harder. You will try to hit them with your axe to see them blasted away and furyshot and killed before you can even land a hit.

What matters is then the relative DPS (or other abilities). If you DPS is comparatively too low, it does not matter one bit if you could solo. You are no good for the party (again talking about DPS, one could contribute other things).


I'm not sure which stance you are going with now...

I see shielders, especially Swashbucklers that are very useful to groups. So I do disagree with your assumption that if your wielding a S&B you are of very little or no usefulness to your party members.

[IronClan]

I saw the other thread of accomplishments and I would not consider something with 12 Fvs levels, aura of purification, and consecration a pure melee. Is that information incorrect? How you claim no offensive spells and have consecration? Granted you also run in US sometimes.

If we are talking S&B my sorc multi uses adamantine body, a tower shield, and main destiny is Crusader. Under this criteria I would say I am one of the best Sword and Board dps going.

I am glad you like your build and the playstyle, but the complaints of S&B as a melee option being low dps have merit.

First let me state I really don't have an issue with the OP, so much as the wording of the thread title... it seems to me the OP's proof is that "it can be done"... this is not the same as "viable". Viable implies REASONABLE.

I also wouldn't consider someone using AOE damage over time spells to be a "S&B'ing through EE's". So if the OP did that (I can't check the Vids right now) that further casts a shadow on "proof of viability".

As I said I've got no issue with the OP, except his choice of words... It appears that Turbine Dev's are already under the false impression that S&B does not need much "buffing" because the Shield is such a good defensive addition (which is not really true except for full ****** AC). Threads like this further perpetuate this in the Dev's minds and their inclination is reinforced through the process known as confirmation bias.

We don't need threads that purport proof of "viability" that are really just proof that "it's not impossible". Especially if they are using non S&B means of DPS (again can't check the vids but if that is the case, this thread is a bit of a sham and a mockery... a shamockery). I believe the OP is probably a skilled player with a interesting build that can join my EE groups anytime... I object to threads with misleading titles even if they are unintentional that help the Dev's reinforce their own incorrect conclusions. about the viability of S&B.

[Wongar]

Well, since he posted all those in achievements, I assume he did his best. Am I supposed to assume otherwise?

Regarding his playstyle, I am going to bet that it consists on throwing a consecration at circle moving around them cleaving. Since he has a lot of FVS consecration can hit hard. How likely is it that he can engage in this playstyle in groups?

In any case, I explicitely said you can be a contribution. But if we pick a group of top players using fully geared top builds, then I bet that a shielder is of very little use. Will we disagree?

And I think that this is something bad. He has a working build, he has merit. Why are some builds so incredibly above the others? I am not going against his achievement, rather, in favor of it. A build that is smartly designed and can clearly beat content should by no means be so underpowered compared to some of the stuff out there.

Well at least on this post I can say you are wrong without a doubt as I know how I play and what I can do far better than you.

Why would you assume a purposely gimped build would be my best? I imposed a set of constraints on myself as a personal challenge. As I already posted, if I want to trivialize quests I simply shift AP into AoV and run in DC with Energy Burst Twisted - can even lead kill count if that's what is important to you.

And no - I don't run around in circles. If you think about how DPS actually works and how to maximize it on a S&B build you will see how kiting / running in circles is the worst thing you can do.

As for my play style in groups the only thing that makes it difficult is people pulling argo and running away - same as it has always been for melee.

[BigErkyKid]

First of all, the reason why I apologized is because you posted this (or at least I recall reading that) as some further "observation" towards the melee viability discussion. When I answered, I did not have in mind melee only, rather, a general comparison.

Within the melee realm, which is point 1, if we restrict to the challenge, your build did very well. Indeed as I pointed out, a lot of people failed at it. People with uber geared characters and players who are regarded as very proficient. So nice and an achievement on your end,as I said multiple times. Outside the challenge, people run those quests way faster. In pure melees. So in that sense, while you may prefer your playstyle, with the evidence we have we can only conclude that they are more powerful.

Finally, there is the discussion regarding whether someone who has suboptimal DPS can contribute to a party. This is highly unlikely to be settled, the reason is that it very quickly gets personal. If build 1 has abysmally more DPS than build 2 and still has relatively good defenses, to me it is clear that at equal skill a party composed of 1s will perform better than a party that is made of 2s. I fail to see how this is up for discussion, but if I am wrong, I am totally open to someone telling me why.

Now, does this mean that we should all play FOTM builds? No. Play, as you say, whatever is fun. For me, shielders are fun. Yet, in a context where other people that I run with dominate the quest, they are not fun. hence I don't play them atm. Can you roll a shielder and still contribute to quests? Yes, most likely. Skill and quest knowledge is not evenly distributed, not all sorcs and monkchers and whatever are equally capable and geared and many other reasons. But at the optimum, the problem remains.

To me, this thread can be easily misunderstood as all is fine for shielders. And I couldn't disagree more with that statement.


Again, your assuming...you could take it at face value for what its worth. In his OP, he writes about not using Blitz, to prove a point that his S&B build is viable. Also happens that he doesn't use Mortal Fear either.

I know of, and have seen many people use Consecration very well in group play. Have you run Epic Elites? Entire mobs do not just die with the flick of a wrist...



Well, considering you stated this earlier in this thread:



I'm not sure which stance you are going with now...

I see shielders, especially Swashbucklers that are very useful to groups. So I do disagree with your assumption that if your wielding a S&B you are of very little or no usefulness to your party members.


First, I already took swash out since this is not the traditional S&B as we understand it. We have already plenty of evidence of how it plays and its power compared to other melees. They are good.

When I said that he could contribute, I meant that of course a skilled player can contributed to a group. This is true for almost any build. But the question is the amount of that contribution when he is grouped with the very best possible combinations of skill and build. And that is where I said that a shielder will most likely contribute little.

As for Wongar, I truly don't want to aggro you. If this is not how you play it, then great. This is how I would play it and perhaps it is suboptimal for the build. I just don't trust defenses very much when several mobs are hitting you in EE. In any case, if the claim is that a melee S&B can lead the melee count when coupled with the best buils and best skilled players, then I seriously doubt it. Whether this is the best you can do, I can t tell either. Is it?

As IronClan says, my whole concern with prove of viability is that it can lead to mistakes. What if when a Barbarian posted a solo WGU we all of a suden agreed that they are not currently vastly underpowered? What if devs thought so?

Shielders have low DPS as it stands. It is a simple matter of DDO computations to show it.

And as I said, if we gathered anything from the dozens of pages of my thread on EE melee viability is that even suboptimal builds can solo the top end quests. It is a matter of good gear, knowing the quest and patience. Not all of them can solo those quests, but it was proven that some can. This by no means implies that they are not underpowered compared to other builds.

And in a party, again, what matters (when skill is equal) is the relative power of the build. If you build is very far behind the power curve compared to the rest, it does not matter one bit whether you can solo a quest. You ll likely not contribute much.

[B0ltdrag0n]

It appears that Turbine Dev's are already under the false impression that S&B does not need much "buffing" because the Shield is such a good defensive addition (which is not really true except for full ****** AC). Threads like this further perpetuate this in the Dev's minds and their inclination is reinforced through the process known as confirmation bias.
.

I am really hoping this is not the thought process going on over there in the PC boards -_-

[Takllin]

First, I already took swash out since this is not the traditional S&B as we understand it. We have already plenty of evidence of how it plays and its power compared to other melees. They are good.

When I said that he could contribute, I meant that of course a skilled player can contributed to a group. This is true for almost any build. But the question is the amount of that contribution when he is grouped with the very best possible combinations of skill and build. And that is where I said that a shielder will most likely contribute little.

As for Wongar, I truly don't want to aggro you. If this is not how you play it, then great. This is how I would play it and perhaps it is suboptimal for the build. I just don't trust defenses very much when several mobs are hitting you in EE. In any case, if the claim is that a melee S&B can lead the melee count when coupled with the best buils and best skilled players, then I seriously doubt it. Whether this is the best you can do, I can t tell either. Is it?

As IronClan says, my whole concern with prove of viability is that it can lead to mistakes. What if when a Barbarian posted a solo WGU we all of a suden agreed that they are not currently vastly underpowered? What if devs thought so?

Shielders have low DPS as it stands. It is a simple matter of DDO computations to show it.

And as I said, if we gathered anything from the dozens of pages of my thread on EE melee viability is that even suboptimal builds can solo the top end quests. It is a matter of good gear, knowing the quest and patience. Not all of them can solo those quests, but it was proven that some can. This by no means implies that they are not underpowered compared to other builds.

And in a party, again, what matters (when skill is equal) is the relative power of the build. If you build is very far behind the power curve compared to the rest, it does not matter one bit whether you can solo a quest. You ll likely not contribute much.

Wongar's build is not traditional S&B either...can you show me where you stated that Swashbuckler was not part of the S&B grouping in this thread? I'm fairly certain you did not.

You did not say little, you flat out said that anyone with non top DPS would contribute nothing to a party with high DPS toons. I don't think there is much of a question if subpar players/builds contribute less than better players/builds.

Also, if you think that something being viable, is the same as on par with top DPS, or overpowered, then there is something fundamentally wrong. Viable in no way, shape or form means that they stand on the same ground as every other class and build that is currently very well equipped to handle EE content. It means that if built and geared and played properly in a very specific way, they can handle it. There is a big difference between the two, and the Devs know this. A handful of players managing to do EE content on sub par play styles or builds does not make them all as good as the sum of those few players.

On a side note, Barbarians have solo'd EEs...yet in two updates, they are revamping Barbarians...so clearly a select handful of players soloing the hardest EE content does not tell the Developers that because of those players, that class or play style does not need any work to make them competitive to other builds/classes.

They have also stated that two new S&B trees will be available that incorporate SWF with the coming Paladin enhancement changes.

[Erdrique]

I think this is an excellent achievement. I tend to favor melee builds and characters over ranged and casting characters myself just because I think they are more fun to play. And I guess that is the biggest take home here, that not only can a melee handle epic elite content but that the player can have fun in doing so. That is what is most important!!

[BigErkyKid]

Wongar's build is not traditional S&B either...can you show me where you stated that Swashbuckler was not part of the S&B grouping in this thread? I'm fairly certain you did not.

You did not say little, you flat out said that anyone with non top DPS would contribute nothing to a party with high DPS toons. I don't think there is much of a question if subpar players/builds contribute less than better players/builds.

Also, if you think that something being viable, is the same as on par with top DPS, or overpowered, then there is something fundamentally wrong. Viable in no way, shape or form means that they stand on the same ground as every other class and build that is currently very well equipped to handle EE content. It means that if built and geared and played properly in a very specific way, they can handle it. There is a big difference between the two, and the Devs know this. A handful of players managing to do EE content on sub par play styles or builds does not make them all as good as the sum of those few players.

On a side note, Barbarians have solo'd EEs...yet in two updates, they are revamping Barbarians...so clearly a select handful of players soloing the hardest EE content does not tell the Developers that because of those players, that class or play style does not need any work to make them competitive to other builds/classes.

They have also stated that two new S&B trees will be available that incorporate SWF with the coming Paladin enhancement changes.

Regarding swash, yup, said it somewhere around here.

As for the discussion on little / not much / nothing. It all depends on the relative power of the builds. If you place a fully stacked blitzing monkcher next to a shielder, I would be that he won't get many kills. At similar skill, similar gear. You see what I mean.

Now regarding whether saying that shielders are viable in end game is likely to hurt the possibility of a rebalance, well the reason why they are balancing to start with is because of the community has reached a consensus on definining them as suboptimal (and by far).

Viable is not a measure of power that matters. Many things are viable in the sense that can complete quests. Now the key question is how they stand regarding other builds. Because this is not a solo game. When you group, you are playing together with those builds that are ages ahead in the power curve. Now most people don't like the taste that leaves in your mouth.

[Wongar]

Wongar's build is not traditional S&B either...

...

Also, if you think that something being viable, is the same as on par with top DPS, or overpowered, then there is something fundamentally wrong. Viable in no way, shape or form means that they stand on the same ground as every other class and build that is currently very well equipped to handle EE content. It means that if built and geared and played properly in a very specific way, they can handle it. There is a big difference between the two, and the Devs know this. A handful of players managing to do EE content on sub par play styles or builds does not make them all as good as the sum of those few players.

On a side note, Barbarians have solo'd EEs...yet in two updates, they are revamping Barbarians...so clearly a select handful of players soloing the hardest EE content does not tell the Developers that because of those players, that class or play style does not need any work to make them competitive to other builds/classes.
...


Well said.

I think my S&B build may be the best at a very small set of quests with a very strict set of unreasonable constraints that few would play under - that is a long way from saying they are ubber and don't need help. However this very sliver of greatness gives me the hope to carry on with S&B :)

I will clearly say I would have no chance of soloing these quests on a traditional pure Fighter / Paladin S&B build due to the massive amounts of damage in EE quests and a need for constant healing.

[MangLord]

I am not trying to create trouble. But if casters clear rooms in one shot and archers drop bosses in a few seconds, what are people with less DPS contributing when grouping with the heavy hitters? To be clear, I dislike the obvious lack of balance between those options and melee.

Healing, trapping, buffing, CC, aggro generation (seriously, my buddy Rednaxxxx's paladin tank skills have made my ranger's kiting skills rusty), and to a lesser degree diplomacy and bluffing ability. I guess it depends on how you prefer to complete a quest. I'm seeing more emphasis on subtlety with the newer content, and I hope this trend continues so straight DPS can't solve every problem. Epic Prove Your Worth has an awesome end fight that goes so smoothly if you have a bard with good diplomacy skill in the party. That fight can be awful on EE without a bard to fire off a top-end diplo check every time. His DPS is pretty low, but he's worth three monkchers for that quest in my book. Regenerating the wizard and cleric's SP also can't be something to sneeze at.

If you want to see how important great CC is to a smooth EE completion, watch Cordovan's latest EE stormhorns run with Cetus and friends. One of the casters in the group had those mobs locked up tighter than Houdini.

I do believe most builds can do EE content in the hands of experienced players with a bit of twitch skill. It's not quite on the same level as EE stormhorns, but my current cleric16/fighter4 build killed the Momma Dragon in Mired in Kobolds with no hire at level on elite. She was Cleric13/Fighter2 at the time. No evasion on a warpriest TWF scimitar build, but great self healing, good saves and pretty good DPS for d6 weapons. The only time I'd soloed that dragon before was with a dwarven pure shintao monk life.

I had a pretty hard time at higher levels with my SnB pure paladin sacred defender life. (I had to do at least one tank life for the experience) She was highly durable, but needed people to provide killing power to supplement that specialized skill set. If an enemy could self heal, namely lizardman shamans, I was in for a long, boring experience waiting to roll a 20 on a vorpal longsword.

[IronClan]

Viable in my mind and how I use it (and I'm under the impression how most people use it) means "reasonably able to contribute/survive" not just barely possible with a skilled player at the controls. A 4 hour Boss fight because the player had to take breaks is clearly not "viability" and the truth that most solo'ers don't talk about is that Dungeon Scaling adds a LOT of HP's and power to mobs, as well as more mobs, to the mobs :cool:

Now the truth is in real DDO as opposed to "Forum version" there are plenty of good players running around with a shield equipped. Maybe it's just Thelanis but I see S&B not necessarily tanks all the time in end game circles... not because its uber or even "viable DPS in EE" but because even in end game circles in THE REAL GAME plenty of people do sub-optimal things, but even better than that: plenty of people play EN (most raids these days) and EH where a shield is possibly contributing to their defense meaningfully without being a full ****** AC tank.

On Forum DDO no one plays anything but EE and often only solo, so this conversation takes place based on the Forum DDO premise. it is disingenuous to some degree.

What is solid fact is: a S&B character has poor DPS to the point that a self healing trash mob can be impassible (or effectively so **** slow as to be practically impassible).

This lack of DPS is not historically accurate and is just plain counter intuitive... it bends verisimilitude over and roggers it across a barrel. In fact history shows that the overwhelmingly favored combat style the WORLD OVER including places that were never known to be exposed to other martial traditions or technology: Is a weapon and shield, probably because it was far more lethal/Survivable then running around with two weapons (a pure fantasy, almost entirely myth and fiction based combat style) or one really big weapon (really big weapons were historically developed to deal with Cavalry, and help defeat Armored knights on horseback in the later medieval era just before the crecy cannon helped start the obsolescence of heavy armor.

S&B SHOULD BE the best combination (most balanced) of Damage and Survival... It should be the most prevalent, you should see more S&B than any other combat style. THF should give up defense for somewhat better armor bypass and AOE damage, and TWF should give up a LOT of defense to get somewhat better Single target DPS and doubled procs (High risk, high reward). In DDO we know this is not the case, Evasion pajama builds have BOTH better defense and FAR better DPS because their DPS based choices (Monk) come with free defensive boosts (Shadow Veil) and their defensive stances come with free DPS boosts (Mountain Stance).

[Thrudh]

consecration can hit hard. How likely is it that he can engage in this playstyle in groups?

Consecration works very well in groups. You state a lot of things as facts that don't hold up in actual gameplay. I'm liking Divine Crusader more and more as I play with it.

[Thrudh]

Now, does this mean that we should all play FOTM builds? No. Play, as you say, whatever is fun. For me, shielders are fun. Yet, in a context where other people that I run with dominate the quest, they are not fun. hence I don't play them atm. Can you roll a shielder and still contribute to quests? Yes, most likely. Skill and quest knowledge is not evenly distributed, not all sorcs and monkchers and whatever are equally capable and geared and many other reasons. But at the optimum, the problem remains.

I think you focus too much on the optimum... But at least you acknowledge that the optimum is not commonplace.

It does explain why I disagree with you so much on this issue. My actual gameplay, PUGing mostly, doesn't match any of your assertions...

Only 1%-5% of the playerbase is probably playing at the optimum... And most of those play in guild or channel parties only...

So I don't interact with a lot of them.... And almost never am I in a party full of them.... Most of the time, I'm playing with all types of people with all types of builds, all types of gear, and all types of skill and quest knowledge...

And I always contribute plenty, even with my "sub-optimal" builds..

Once in a while I'll get in a group with a single ultra-uber, and I still feel like I hold my own, killing my own mobs, requiring no healing or help... I don't find him killing everything faster than I can get to them... He may be killing 60% of the mobs, while the other 2-5 of us handle the other 40%, but we're still contributing... Mobs don't always line up to be mass-held and energy-bursted, you know. Sure, he could drink pots, and maybe get it done faster, but we're apparently killing fast enough.

Now, I don't remember the last time I was in a group with 5 other ultra-ubers.. Is that who you play with? Maybe that's why your complaints don't match my playing experience at all.

Or are your complaints all based on paper and youtube videos, and not actual gameplay?

[BigErkyKid]

Consecration works very well in groups. You state a lot of things as facts that don't hold up in actual gameplay. I'm liking Divine Crusader more and more as I play with it.

I have yet to see a group of powerful players using frontier power builds minding much about consacretion. It works well if you plan to melee. If you blast everything to pieces while backpedalling it is not worth the pixels in your screen.

I have played with the people in degenerate matter, btw. I have played with one of your druids and one of your sorcs and I saw no consecration there. I played with them from lords of dust to GH, doing every single quest in a double cov weekend. They just tore every single quest to pieces in an endless zerg. EE, mind you.

And I regularly host EE and EH pugs for almost every single quest in Argo.

I always see the same. In a group where the majority of players are elite casters / elite FOTM builds, they dominate the quest and the rest may as well not be there. Those builds have the best DPS, the best defense and the best CC.

And if you do not believe me, you are welcome to join me in game.

We all know that its true: viable as solo is not the same as contributor to a group. Any build that is ages behind in DPS from another will be the weakest contributor of the two when they quest.

This takes no value from the achievement Wongar posted. It is not easy to do what he did, regardless of whether he used magic in the process or what not. I believe he will often be the strong man in a party. And that he saves the day many times. Because truth is that not everyone has those uber characters, or the skill to play them to their full power or the gear or the quest knowdledge. But that is not to say that if they were, they would blow the shielder out of the quest and make it look like their caddie. THe new DPS tree for shielders may be good. That will be a step in the right direction.

But even then there is still a huge power gap between the kiters and the rest. In defense and in offense.

[TPICKRELL]

...I'm liking Divine Crusader more and more as I play with it.

Agreed, I find myself running in Divine Crusader over Legendary even when soloing.

Theres no doubt that legendary is better DPS. But, Divine Crusader is very solid DPS, very good survivability and doesn't punish me for taking 5 minutes in the middle of a quest to take the dog out.

While legendary is more uber, Divine Crusader is much lower maintenance and I don't feel like I have to zerg as fast as I can through every quest. I've been runnnig a series of lives to get my Divine Epic past lives and my PDK Iconic lives out of the way and its been much more enjoyable than the legendary lives were. I've enjoyed this PDK/Divine Crusader combo enough that I'll probably target an alt for this as an end build.

[Oxarhamar]

I have yet to see a group of powerful players using frontier power builds minding much about consacretion. It works well if you plan to melee. If you blast everything to pieces while backpedalling it is not worth the pixels in your screen.

I have played with the people in degenerate matter, btw. I have played with one of your druids and one of your sorcs and I saw no consecration there. I played with them from lords of dust to GH, doing every single quest in a double cov weekend. They just tore every single quest to pieces in an endless zerg. EE, mind you.

And I regularly host EE and EH pugs for almost every single quest in Argo.

I always see the same. In a group where the majority of players are elite casters / elite FOTM builds, they dominate the quest and the rest may as well not be there. Those builds have the best DPS, the best defense and the best CC.

And if you do not believe me, you are welcome to join me in game.

consecration not only solo is not the same as contributor to a group. Any build that is ages behind in DPS from another will be the weakest contributor of the two when they quest.

This takes no value from the achievement Wongar posted. It is not easy to do what he did, regardless of whether he used magic in the process or what not. I believe he will often be the strong man in a party. And that he saves the day many times. Because truth is that not everyone has those uber characters, or the skill to play them to their full power or the gear or the quest knowdledge. But that is not to say that if they were, they would blow the shielder out of the quest and make it look like their caddie. THe new DPS tree for shielders may be good. That will be a step in the right direction.

But even then there is still a huge power gap between the kiters and the rest. In defense and in offense.

Still assuming all ranged builds kite 100% of the time?

Consecration is much more that you believe it to be and Divine Crusader even without using it often for that matter.

Consecration : Active Ability: The ground you are standing on is consecrated. Evil creatures standing on consecrated ground are burned every 3 seconds, gaining a stack of Purification and taking 1d6 damage per character level. This damage is half Fire, half Good. Both damage components are affected by Fire Spell Power. Cooldown: [30/25/20] seconds). Duration 15 seconds. Activation Cost: [50/40/30] Spell Points.

Sacred Ground : Passive Bonus: While standing on consecrated ground you and your allies are healed every 3 seconds for 1 point of positive energy per character level. This is affected by your positive spell power.

Crusade : While standing on consecrated ground, you and your allies gain a 10% enhancement bonus to the damage of all your attacks. This is a 4 second buff that activates every 4 seconds when standing on consecrated ground.

even at range dropping a Consecraded Ground will not only heal you while your in the circle it will increase at least your DPS by 10% that's ignoring all the passive DPS boosts of DC.


* I will toss a circle and stand in it just for the heals while mowing down incoming mobs and I try to toss them up in areas where other players are dealing with mobs when I can to keep them healed up. I'll even toss a circle down on an encapped player if Cacoon is on timer.

[Lallajulia]

my compliments, wongar.
good job.

myself, i do not like s/b. at all. but good there is more than few dimensions on how job can be done.

[Thrudh]

I have played with the people in degenerate matter, btw. I have played with one of your druids and one of your sorcs and I saw no consecration there.

What does this mean, by the way? I don't have a druid or a sorc anymore, and what is "degenerate matter"?

[Krelar]

What does this mean, by the way? I don't have a druid or a sorc anymore, and what is "degenerate matter"?

Degenerate Matter is a guild one of the other posters in this thread is part of. I think he was confused about who he was replying to.

[Wongar]

I have yet to see a group of powerful players using frontier power builds minding much about consacretion. It works well if you plan to melee. If you blast everything to pieces while backpedalling it is not worth the pixels in your screen.



DC is arguably the strongest destiny in the game and the most group friendly - if you took the time to understand how it actually works you would see this.

If you run with the sort of selfish players that pull argo on everything and back peddle - well I'd suggest you play with different people.... or make a ranged build so you can play their game as you will never be happy as any kind of melee in groups that play that way.

[Oxarhamar]

Agreed, I find myself running in Divine Crusader over Legendary even when soloing.

Theres no doubt that legendary is better DPS. But, Divine Crusader is very solid DPS, very good survivability and doesn't punish me for taking 5 minutes in the middle of a quest to take the dog out.

While legendary is more uber, Divine Crusader is much lower maintenance and I don't feel like I have to zerg as fast as I can through every quest. I've been runnnig a series of lives to get my Divine Epic past lives and my PDK Iconic lives out of the way and its been much more enjoyable than the legendary lives were. I've enjoyed this PDK/Divine Crusader combo enough that I'll probably target an alt for this as an end build.

Agreed I'm running all my Iconic lives in Divine Crusader to pick up heroic lives that I'd like but, would never run otherwise. like Paladin, Barbarian, Druid, Rogue.

I've done them all before and repeating them is not interesting to me. In Divine Crusaider though I makes it work.

[BigErkyKid]

DC is arguably the strongest destiny in the game and the most group friendly - if you took the time to understand how it actually works you would see this.

If you run with the sort of selfish players that pull argo on everything and back peddle - well I'd suggest you play with different people.... or make a ranged build so you can play their game as you will never be happy as any kind of melee in groups that play that way.

I ve run several lives in DC. Melee lives, that is. I know how it works. I know it can be quite helpful in certain groups or while soloing.

The point I want to make I think is pretty obvious for everyone who has played this game for a while.

Some people play their build and don't give a **** if there is an infinitely more powerful one.

I happen to care about the balance in game. For several reasons.

First and most importantly, because I know that when they design quests they have to balance them around existing builds. And if there one such build that is uber, odds are the balance is going to be wrong and the game won't be as fun for me when I play it.

Now if you guys want to turn this into something personal about whether one contributes or whether this player this or that, fine. But I think it is rather pointless.

[Deadlock]

I am not trying to create trouble. But if casters clear rooms in one shot and archers drop bosses in a few seconds, what are people with less DPS contributing when grouping with the heavy hitters? To be clear, I dislike the obvious lack of balance between those options and melee.
So at the end of the they, when grouping, the question is are you able to kill fast enough to contribute to the group?

Maybe not what you meant, but this does come across as if you're saying that unless you have consulted the forums and are in a build deemed to be maximum DPS then you're not playing the game properly.

I'm sure you're not and if not then I'll hastily applaud your sensible approach to the game. If you are saying that then you're a tool.

[Wongar]

Viable in my mind and how I use it (and I'm under the impression how most people use it) means "reasonably able to contribute/survive" not just barely possible with a skilled player at the controls. A 4 hour Boss fight because the player had to take breaks is clearly not "viability" and the truth that most solo'ers don't talk about is that Dungeon Scaling adds a LOT of HP's and power to mobs, as well as more mobs, to the mobs :cool:

Now the truth is in real DDO as opposed to "Forum version" there are plenty of good players running around with a shield equipped. Maybe it's just Thelanis but I see S&B not necessarily tanks all the time in end game circles... not because its uber or even "viable DPS in EE" but because even in end game circles in THE REAL GAME plenty of people do sub-optimal things, but even better than that: plenty of people play EN (most raids these days) and EH where a shield is possibly contributing to their defense meaningfully without being a full ****** AC tank.

On Forum DDO no one plays anything but EE and often only solo, so this conversation takes place based on the Forum DDO premise. it is disingenuous to some degree.

What is solid fact is: a S&B character has poor DPS to the point that a self healing trash mob can be impassible (or effectively so **** slow as to be practically impassible).

This lack of DPS is not historically accurate and is just plain counter intuitive... it bends verisimilitude over and roggers it across a barrel. In fact history shows that the overwhelmingly favored combat style the WORLD OVER including places that were never known to be exposed to other martial traditions or technology: Is a weapon and shield, probably because it was far more lethal/Survivable then running around with two weapons (a pure fantasy, almost entirely myth and fiction based combat style) or one really big weapon (really big weapons were historically developed to deal with Cavalry, and help defeat Armored knights on horseback in the later medieval era just before the crecy cannon helped start the obsolescence of heavy armor.

S&B SHOULD BE the best combination (most balanced) of Damage and Survival... It should be the most prevalent, you should see more S&B than any other combat style. THF should give up defense for somewhat better armor bypass and AOE damage, and TWF should give up a LOT of defense to get somewhat better Single target DPS and doubled procs (High risk, high reward). In DDO we know this is not the case, Evasion pajama builds have BOTH better defense and FAR better DPS because their DPS based choices (Monk) come with free defensive boosts (Shadow Veil) and their defensive stances come with free DPS boosts (Mountain Stance).

I tend to agree with most of what you have said - well with maybe the exception of viable.

My motivation for posting this was to show a S&B melee was viable in the current game - as I said I am frustrated with the continual stream of derogatory posts completely disregarding S&B as a play style. I used to PUG a lot before joining a great guild, while PUGing I was ridiculed for being a Dwarf (well before swash made Dwarfs cool again) and kicked out of/ask to leave groups simply for being a melee with a shield. I know things have changed a bit now with the enhancement pass but I have a long memory and things have not changed enough :)

A lot of people like to play S&B builds - I think putting up S&B achievements will help with acceptance of them in the game and give players the confidence that they can play one if they want. Agreed this may be all overcome by events in a few months as heavy armor S&B may well become the next FOTM like many other things have after a good buffing.

Thanks for picking my worst quest to highlight :) I agree WGU is not really viable for me - I did it to complete my goals. The end fight is simply constructed very badly for my build and playstyle. There is something inherently wrong with a 200,00HP boss that disappears every time you get close to him - that coupled with constant spawn of high damage/HP mobs make it a very tedious and unfun end fight for me. I could have simply ignored this quest as being bad for my build much like most of the FOTM blitz builds avoid Precious Cargo and Through a Mirror.

I do think the other completion times are viable - especially given they are harder quests and I was not running them for time, did a few optionals, etc. As an example I ran DA in US in 47 min - (I can't find anybody who has done it faster in US :)) when trying for faster time the same build ran it in LD in 35min. Sure there are faster times but these are respectable and therefore viable.

[jalont]

Maybe not what you meant, but this does come across as if you're saying that unless you have consulted the forums and are in a build deemed to be maximum DPS then you're not playing the game properly.

I'm sure you're not and if not then I'll hastily applaud your sensible approach to the game. If you are saying that then you're a tool.

I personally don't care how a person plays this game, and I wouldn't say they weren't playing properly by not having an optimal build. That said, in a game as easy as DDO, certain of us can solo EEs on any build. So what do people mean by viable? That completely blurs the lines and offers no base when discussing class balancing and viability.

[Thar]

Keep in mind, with Update 23 we'll not only have PRR, but MRR (Magic Resistance Rating) as well. This should make it us on par with our scanty clothed bretheren.

Why should armor make you immune to magic damage? There should be some sacrifice to get this protection and slapping on armor is not it. That being said, the game damage is escalating to insane levels. You may be able to absorb 73% of it later after the change but everyone else in the party will self explode and is that really where the game needs to go giving out 2-3000 damage at a shot?

[Wongar]

...

First and most importantly, because I know that when they design quests they have to balance them around existing builds. And if there one such build that is uber, odds are the balance is going to be wrong and the game won't be as fun for me when I play it.

Now if you guys want to turn this into something personal about whether one contributes or whether this player this or that, fine. But I think it is rather pointless.

I keep telling myself to stop replying - but I know you have good intentions and we both want the same end result - a better game.

Sounds like you are worried the game will get too hard based on balance. Fair enough. Personally I'm worried the game will get too easy. Before you flame me for being an elitist hear me out. I have a genuine concern that if the game becomes too easy (for example EE becomes as mindless as EN) then people will loose interest in it and it will go away because there is no challenge and no reason to pursue gear, past lifes, etc. Many have argued we are already too far down this road, personally I don't agree as I can still challenge myself and believe most others can as well.

As for your last statement - I don't know what to say. The basis of almost every post you have made in this thread is about contribution. I think we might actually agree that this is a pointless argument :) (Though for different reasons I suspect but at least we agree)

I'll admit that I am spoiled with my guild. No one in the guild really cares about how ubber/gimp a build is. No one really pays attention to kill counts and no matter how many times someone dies in a quest they still quickly res and rebuff. Everyone contributes - might be DPS, might by CC, might be tanking, might be comic relief in chat - everyone contributes in some way just by being there. In over a year I have yet to be in a guild run where an ubber player felt the need to show off and dominate a quest or pull argo and kite. Heck, I can't even remember the last time someone pulled argo and kited where it was not part of the plan. Yes, I play in a utopic guild where players respect each other and play to have fun above all else. We play N/H/E, we crush or we wipe - does not really matter - we always have fun. So now that you have a view of for fortunate I am, maybe you can see why I think someone showing off or pulling argo and back peddling in selfish.

[Seikojin]

Why should armor make you immune to magic damage? There should be some sacrifice to get this protection and slapping on armor is not it. That being said, the game damage is escalating to insane levels. You may be able to absorb 73% of it later after the change but everyone else in the party will self explode and is that really where the game needs to go giving out 2-3000 damage at a shot?

We do it to enemies, and without using a completely different system for scale, they get to do something similar to us. So yes, MRR is being made to help mitigate some of that insanity for those who aren't pajama 100% avoidance builds.

[Seikojin]

Wrongar, do you have links to the achievement posting that you can put in this thread so one does not have to scour the forums for your information? I mean, I am sure in screenshots or videos you have stuff that would help detail your build, etc.

[Wongar]

Wrongar, do you have links to the achievement posting that you can put in this thread so one does not have to scour the forums for your information? I mean, I am sure in screenshots or videos you have stuff that would help detail your build, etc.

Some build info in the thread. I am planning on posting the full build and some of my methods for playing it but it will take me some time to get it together.



SS can be found at this link

[Gremmlynn]

OK – so why the hate? Sure casters, archers can do more DPS. That's the way of the current DDO world and I think you will find few who argue with that view. How does that detract from the effectiveness of other builds?No hate. But if the rest of the group is doing the vast majority of the work, wouldn't one mostly just be along for the ride with no real point in their even being there?

Personally, I see this as more a problem with the game, that allows some characters to gain all the survivability they need with little trade off, often simply by being effective at range. While others seem to have to pay an inordinate price for often less survivability. It's like they are made for two different games. One group, the BOYH game DDO is, the other some trinity game where tanks have low DPS and barbs rely on tanks to take the agro, but with no healers or casters to support either,, as they are in the BYOH group kicking ass and self supporting, as an example.

[BigErkyKid]

I keep telling myself to stop replying - but I know you have good intentions and we both want the same end result - a better game.

Sounds like you are worried the game will get too hard based on balance. Fair enough. Personally I'm worried the game will get too easy. Before you flame me for being an elitist hear me out. I have a genuine concern that if the game becomes too easy (for example EE becomes as mindless as EN) then people will loose interest in it and it will go away because there is no challenge and no reason to pursue gear, past lifes, etc. Many have argued we are already too far down this road, personally I don't agree as I can still challenge myself and believe most others can as well.

As for your last statement - I don't know what to say. The basis of almost every post you have made in this thread is about contribution. I think we might actually agree that this is a pointless argument :) (Though for different reasons I suspect but at least we agree)

I'll admit that I am spoiled with my guild. No one in the guild really cares about how ubber/gimp a build is. No one really pays attention to kill counts and no matter how many times someone dies in a quest they still quickly res and rebuff. Everyone contributes - might be DPS, might by CC, might be tanking, might be comic relief in chat - everyone contributes in some way just by being there. In over a year I have yet to be in a guild run where an ubber player felt the need to show off and dominate a quest or pull argo and kite. Heck, I can't even remember the last time someone pulled argo and kited where it was not part of the plan. Yes, I play in a utopic guild where players respect each other and play to have fun above all else. We play N/H/E, we crush or we wipe - does not really matter - we always have fun. So now that you have a view of for fortunate I am, maybe you can see why I think someone showing off or pulling argo and back peddling in selfish.

Indeed, as I said, I am not looking for a stupid argument. I think I would very much prefer to discuss builds with you. For instance, currently I am trying to rush to cap to try out this 8 FVS, 6 wizzard, 6 paladin build (dwarf!) I have in mind. A shielder. So maybe we can PM about it.

But the point I was trying to get across is that when balance I am sure they keep in mind stuff like how long it takes people to finish quests and how many times they die. They surely have data on it. There are builds that can burst damage on the dozens of K, and this is probably why we see so many huges bags of HPs (specially bosses). When they design things as Mior, or the dragons in thunderpeaks...

Clearly the game has to offer some challenge to all builds because as you say if it was absolute cake, people would probably leave. But it is hard to balance it well when there exist huge disparities in power. The reason I think is clear.

[Gremmlynn]

Other builds bring the same thing that the uber elite builds do as well, just not as efficient or powerful. Which is pretty much his point. If one isn't playing those uber builds they are being less than they could be for the group. Basically they are choosing not to be as helpful as they could be.

Which tells me there is something wrong with the game in a big way.

[Wongar]

No hate. But if the rest of the group is doing the vast majority of the work, wouldn't one mostly just be along for the ride with no real point in their even being there?

Personally, I see this as more a problem with the game, that allows some characters to gain all the survivability they need with little trade off, often simply by being effective at range. While others seem to have to pay an inordinate price for often less survivability. It's like they are made for two different games. One group, the BOYH game DDO is, the other some trinity game where tanks have low DPS and barbs rely on tanks to take the agro, but with no healers or casters to support either,, as they are in the BYOH group kicking ass and self supporting, as an example.

I have fun and feel like I contribute - that is all that is important to me so I feel like it is OK for me to be there. But then again I don't often feel like the rest of the group is doing more work than me...

Well I can't disagree with the point of easy defense for the cloth users - and that being frustrating.

Consider I have 6 martial part lifes, use plate and a tower shield, have almost best AC gear, and spent almost a quarter of my AP on AC enhancements to get AC in the 150s
A monk/wiz split can easily surpass this with minimal effort and without any of the penalties of plate/tower shield and still have max dodge, displacement, incorp, fast movement, UMD etc. If I remember correctly 195 is the highest I have seen in a robe - that was with 9 martial lifes but still 195 AC in a robe with no DPS sacrifice.

[Takllin]

Which is pretty much his point. If one isn't playing those uber builds they are being less than they could be for the group. Basically they are choosing not to be as helpful as they could be.

Which tells me there is something wrong with the game in a big way.

That was not his point, or I would not have called him out. His point was that anything that isn't top DPS contributes nothing.

You don't need a full group of top dps toons to complete the hardest EEs, and everyone plays differently and for varying reasons.


I have yet to see a group of powerful players using frontier power builds minding much about consacretion. It works well if you plan to melee. If you blast everything to pieces while backpedalling it is not worth the pixels in your screen.

I have played with the people in degenerate matter, btw. I have played with one of your druids and one of your sorcs and I saw no consecration there. I played with them from lords of dust to GH, doing every single quest in a double cov weekend. They just tore every single quest to pieces in an endless zerg. EE, mind you.

And I regularly host EE and EH pugs for almost every single quest in Argo.

I always see the same. In a group where the majority of players are elite casters / elite FOTM builds, they dominate the quest and the rest may as well not be there. Those builds have the best DPS, the best defense and the best CC.

And if you do not believe me, you are welcome to join me in game.

We all know that its true: viable as solo is not the same as contributor to a group. Any build that is ages behind in DPS from another will be the weakest contributor of the two when they quest.

This takes no value from the achievement Wongar posted. It is not easy to do what he did, regardless of whether he used magic in the process or what not. I believe he will often be the strong man in a party. And that he saves the day many times. Because truth is that not everyone has those uber characters, or the skill to play them to their full power or the gear or the quest knowdledge. But that is not to say that if they were, they would blow the shielder out of the quest and make it look like their caddie. THe new DPS tree for shielders may be good. That will be a step in the right direction.

But even then there is still a huge power gap between the kiters and the rest. In defense and in offense.

The Shoikan build is just one example of a top tier build that uses Consecration.

You wonder why you did not see Consecration from a casting Druid or a Sorc? There is very little to no synergy between those two classes and DC. Way to use casters as an example of why Consecration is not a good ability...in a thread about melee toons.

If you would list your toons out, then maybe I'd join you, otherwise I have no idea who you are.

[Nightmanis]

The Shoikan build is just one example of a top tier build that uses Consecration.

You wonder why you did not see Consecration from a casting Druid or a Sorc? There is very little to no synergy between those two classes and DC. Way to use casters as an example of why Consecration is not a good ability...in a thread about melee toons.

If you would list your toons out, then maybe I'd join you, otherwise I have no idea who you are.

Thinking of him, he was running an 18/1/1 Barb Fighter FVS build in DC. I'm not going to lie, it was actually some seriously impressive dps watching him go at things in EETor.

Also, a big benefit is you can throw Consecration down while raged. So you just throw down one, and kill stuff while kiting in the small circle to keep yourself healed. Top off with SF pots and maybe a cocoon between rages.

I'm going to agree with the main point though:

It has been distinctly made clear by him that if you are not one of the top DPS builds, you are NOT contributing.

Are DI Sorcs and Furyshot Monchers powerful? Yes. Is that all you see in EE's mopping up any and all content as if it was casual Korthos runs? Absolutely not. I see less monchers now than I do shuricannons of all shapes and sizes. I don't see that many DI sorcs simply because the investment needed is so great to get them to the level that Erky says they are all at. I see more evo specced druids than I do DI sorcs, and even more Shiradi sorcs than that.

In fact, now that I think about it I don't really see very many of those top "Don't ever be caught dead NOT in these builds" style builds anymore. I see a lot more creative designs here and there with the occasional "Total lack of creativity" build thrown into the mix. And I see plenty in EE.

[Wongar]

Just in case you missed it.


Read this

I could not be happier about this.

[ReaperAlexEU]

Just in case you missed it.

Pure Paly 32pt S&B EE DA solo in Divine Crusader (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446148-Pure-Paly-32pt-S-amp-B-EE-DA-solo-in-Divine-Crusader)

I could not be happier about this.

hehe, but the question is what does my paly bring to a group? obviously swatting devils with a healing stick is not the best use of everyones time in a group ;)

so in a group i try to help out in other ways. i stand in doors and other tight places so the glass cannons don't have as many mobs to kite and the AoE droppers have a nice group of mobs to target. i intimi to try and group mobs up for AoE or simply to give a kiters legs a rest.

i chuck a CSW or LoH out here and there and have resurrection on no-fail scrolls.

i actively try to turn heavy hitting mobs away from the other melee's so they wont get beat up as much. this is a pain when deception items are in play but i've found if the other melee's are all standing together then instead of placing myself opposite them i stand at right angles, so if the mob gets swung about by deception then he's just hitting at thin air

i try to catch as many people with my divine energy resistance as i can knowing it gives more than normal energy resistance and many guilds wont have the old 30 resistance shrines any more.it's almost always twisted in for quality of life (i did try dropping it for more doublestrike for soloing but got fed up waiting to cast each resistance on the first attempt)

all of the above applies out of my main destiny. in divine crusader i also add 10% phys dmg to anyone in the melee scrum with me along with some handy healing and scalable damage to any mob near me.

now, the big question is how does that stack up to a perfect party of uber builds? well, it probably doesn't. but in the land of pugging i very rarely see a party full of uber builds. in fact i'm far more likely to see an uber build farming an off destiny that might not have any of its signature moves available at that time.

so in the random chaos of a pug i bring a bit of stability, just as any other vet would with whatever gimp they are tinkering with at the time :)

[BigErkyKid]

Let me see, there are plenty of people saying that:

Not everyone plays uber characters, creating an uber characters is not simple, even if you have one game experience matters, uber characters may not be fun to play...

All of which I have explicitely said in my posts. If some people were not so concerned to catch me on mistakes, they would have noticed. My point is not that, obviously. I PUG all the time, 99% of my runs. I see a huge variety of builds and skills and situations.

The point, though, is that as the game stands, the potential for power differences is similar to putting together a kobold and a dragon. If we could have together in an uber group all the possible reasonable archetypes in the game at their max achievable power and piloted by the top skill players, huge differences would persist. Which is a simple problem of game design. It is broken, unbalanced and it actively contributes to making the game less fun.

This is what I dislike, this is the aim of my furious comments and this is what I am trying to argue. Bringing up that not all PUGs are like that is an obvious think that I have repeated endless times through this thread.

Now the example of the gimpy and poorly equipped paladin (take no offense, just making a point) soloing EE DA in crusader. This is yet again an example that in the right hands plenty of builds are "viable" in the sense that they can complete quests. That does NOT make them good contributors to a party. Yes of course, if this experienced player is grouped with rookies or what not, he might. But if we place him in a group with a few of the current top builds what will he do? Probably not very much. So again, "viable" solo is not "contributor" in groups. At same skill, same gear, same game experience, a build can only contribute if it is not too far behind in the power curve from the other builds.

This is something that I hope devs understand very well. It is not making them work alone, rather seeing how they would work when coupled with different kinds of builds, including the most powerful.

[Kuttamia]

OK – I'm a Dwarf with an Ax to Grind. I'm getting a bit irritated with the ongoing S&B bashing. Being a Dwarf I'd likely have cleaved several people in half by now at my perception of the insults. After all – I think pure S&B is not only viable – it is the best pure melee in the game!

To counter the argument that S&B (and non-blitzing melee in general) is a waste of a party slot, I have posted a collection of solo EE completions in the achievements.

Selected quests include the end quest of the higher level chains and a couple other quests that have been identified as being hard or impossible for a non blitzing / non evasion melee. Should provide a good sample of EE endgame content.

Summary (see achievements for screen shots and detail)

Breaking The Ranks - 65 min, 176 mobs killed, flawless
Devil Assault - 47 min, 206 mobs killed, flawless
End of the Road - 28 min, 104 mobs killed, flawless
Precious Cargo - 101 min, 134 mobs killed, 1 death
Through a Mirror - 43 min, 144 mobs killed, flawless
TOR - 42 min, 78 mobs killed, flawless
What Goes Up - 243 min*, 475 mobs killed, 1 death
* I did not spend 4 hours in quest - took several breaks due to how tedious the end fight is

There is your proof that S&B with no blitz, no ranged, and no evasion is EE viable.

Please stop insulting those of us that prefer to use heavy plate and carry a tower shied. We are not a joke, we are not a waste of a party slot, we are not piking soulstones!

You are taking 243min to clear what goes up while others are clearing it in less then 30min.

[Takllin]

Let me see, there are plenty of people saying that:

Not everyone plays uber characters, creating an uber characters is not simple, even if you have one game experience matters, uber characters may not be fun to play...

All of which I have explicitely said in my posts. If some people were not so concerned to catch me on mistakes, they would have noticed. My point is not that, obviously. I PUG all the time, 99% of my runs. I see a huge variety of builds and skills and situations.

The point, though, is that as the game stands, the potential for power differences is similar to putting together a kobold and a dragon. If we could have together in an uber group all the possible reasonable archetypes in the game at their max achievable power and piloted by the top skill players, huge differences would persist. Which is a simple problem of game design. It is broken, unbalanced and it actively contributes to making the game less fun.

This is what I dislike, this is the aim of my furious comments and this is what I am trying to argue. Bringing up that not all PUGs are like that is an obvious think that I have repeated endless times through this thread.

Now the example of the gimpy and poorly equipped paladin (take no offense, just making a point) soloing EE DA in crusader. This is yet again an example that in the right hands plenty of builds are "viable" in the sense that they can complete quests. That does NOT make them good contributors to a party. Yes of course, if this experienced player is grouped with rookies or what not, he might. But if we place him in a group with a few of the current top builds what will he do? Probably not very much. So again, "viable" solo is not "contributor" in groups. At same skill, same gear, same game experience, a build can only contribute if it is not too far behind in the power curve from the other builds.

This is something that I hope devs understand very well. It is not making them work alone, rather seeing how they would work when coupled with different kinds of builds, including the most powerful.

Because there is tons of bad information being spread on these forums, and your initial point was ludicrous. If there is no one calling you out, then this in short order becomes "fact" when it really is not.

Here, read the definition of viable. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable capable of succeeding

That is NOT the same as being great builds or contributors, it means that they are CAPABLE OF SUCCEEDING. Because in the past, and even now S&B has a reputation of not being viable in end game EEs.

We all want balance, but your ridiculous claims are not the way to go about it. Every build and class has trade offs, some are greater than others. But a S&B character should never have the amount of DPS that a DI Sorc or DPS spec'd melee/caster/range toon has.

[Takllin]

You are taking 243min to clear what goes up while others are clearing it in less then 30min.

Which they are using Mortal Fear, Masters Blitz and cheese tactics(running past the majority of mobs). He also stated he took breaks while running it, so not sure how long it really took him. Or how long it would take if he used Mortal Fear, Blitz and the same cheese tactics as others who post solo WGU completions.

[BigErkyKid]

Because there is tons of bad information being spread on these forums, and your initial point was ludicrous. If there is no one calling you out, then this in short order becomes "fact" when it really is not.

Here, read the definition of viable. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable capable of succeeding

That is NOT the same as being great builds or contributors, it means that they are CAPABLE OF SUCCEEDING. Because in the past, and even now S&B has a reputation of not being viable in end game EEs.

We all want balance, but your ridiculous claims are not the way to go about it. Every build and class has trade offs, some are greater than others. But a S&B character should never have the amount of DPS that a DI Sorc or DPS spec'd melee/caster/range toon has.

For someone so keen on correcting other people, you failed to read my post very badly. I just stated the definitions of viable and contributor, which you proceeded to copy while citing me from an online dictionary.

Followed by a statement regarding DPS that no one has ever made. The point of your post being?

Viable is not a good measure in a MMO. Contribution is what matters. I have been saying this for a while now.

Luckily, Sev is changing rather radically the melee scene. I think it is a bit blunt, to just give everyone +% damage. But well, if they cannot think of something more imaginative, at least this will close the power gap.

Honestly spell power was very strangely ported from DnD to DDO, so I guess that was the start of caster/s power creep. Now melees jump in that vagon.

[Thrudh]

Are DI Sorcs and Furyshot Monchers powerful? Yes. Is that all you see in EE's mopping up any and all content as if it was casual Korthos runs? Absolutely not. I see less monchers now than I do shuricannons of all shapes and sizes. I don't see that many DI sorcs simply because the investment needed is so great to get them to the level that Erky says they are all at. I see more evo specced druids than I do DI sorcs, and even more Shiradi sorcs than that.

In fact, now that I think about it I don't really see very many of those top "Don't ever be caught dead NOT in these builds" style builds anymore. I see a lot more creative designs here and there with the occasional "Total lack of creativity" build thrown into the mix. And I see plenty in EE.

This.

It doesn't matter that, on paper, some builds are "more powerful" than others. What I see in game is a bunch of people playing all kinds of different builds, and all contributing.

Whole thing doesn't matter anyway... Looks like the devs have a good plan to fix the "Blitz" problem

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446138-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-2

[ReaperAlexEU]

Let me see, there are plenty of people saying that:

Not everyone plays uber characters, creating an uber characters is not simple, even if you have one game experience matters, uber characters may not be fun to play...

All of which I have explicitely said in my posts. If some people were not so concerned to catch me on mistakes, they would have noticed. My point is not that, obviously. I PUG all the time, 99% of my runs. I see a huge variety of builds and skills and situations.

The point, though, is that as the game stands, the potential for power differences is similar to putting together a kobold and a dragon. If we could have together in an uber group all the possible reasonable archetypes in the game at their max achievable power and piloted by the top skill players, huge differences would persist. Which is a simple problem of game design. It is broken, unbalanced and it actively contributes to making the game less fun.

This is what I dislike, this is the aim of my furious comments and this is what I am trying to argue. Bringing up that not all PUGs are like that is an obvious think that I have repeated endless times through this thread.

Now the example of the gimpy and poorly equipped paladin (take no offense, just making a point) soloing EE DA in crusader. This is yet again an example that in the right hands plenty of builds are "viable" in the sense that they can complete quests. That does NOT make them good contributors to a party. Yes of course, if this experienced player is grouped with rookies or what not, he might. But if we place him in a group with a few of the current top builds what will he do? Probably not very much. So again, "viable" solo is not "contributor" in groups. At same skill, same gear, same game experience, a build can only contribute if it is not too far behind in the power curve from the other builds.

This is something that I hope devs understand very well. It is not making them work alone, rather seeing how they would work when coupled with different kinds of builds, including the most powerful.

first up, no offence taken, i know my paly is a gimp :).

i also get what you say about not feeling like you're contributing when you're in party with FOTM build (you're not calling everyone else a gimp, you're saying it's not fun for you if you're so far behind the power curve).

there are times when i won't group with a certain build as i don't think it has much to offer a party

i also vividly remember feeling like i was not contributing anything when i was a newbie.

so i get where you're coming from and i see that you're championing for more balance and less disparity between various sensible builds (because we can make builds that should not succeed, those should not be balanced).

and yes, i think turbine should always strive to find such balance and it's nice to see them working on that right now.

however, where i think we will disagree is what you can do to contribute to a party when you don't have the FOTM build. i tried to highlight some of that in my post. some of the things i can do that don't reflect in my own dps and kills but either amplify the parties dps or just make their life easier and safer. it also adds to a feeling of team play if some other players in the party have your back, which i hope is something all players kinda like.

so when i join an EE pug i do so with a feeling that i can contribute. i don't care if i'm not dominating the kill count as i'll be focused on helping in other ways. think about a shiradi with stand and deliver. if i can intimi a mob so the archer doesn't have to kite that's a +10 dmg bonus waiting for them if the fight goes on for long enough (making agroing the boss even more important to me). when i see players shred a pack of mobs i've gathered up it doesn't make me feel inadequate, it makes me feel like part of the team. i'll hold em while you kick em. if we have a blitzer in group with your typical mix of ranged types, i can hold mobs down for him to hit to milk his glancing blows (which the devs are hoping to add back in to attacks on the move, right now however you dont get glancing blows when chasing a mob). i also try to walk mobs through blade barriers when i see them.

i never rolled a S&B paly up to dominate the kill count, i rolled him up to soak up the pain so others don't have to. to save a squishy when they bite off more than they can chew. to raise the fallen when things go south. so maybe that's why i'm a lot happier with my gimped paly than you are with your S&B chars? sure we should be able to add to the dps, but we bring things to the table that aren't measured by kill counts. so you can't balance a S&B build with a dps build by making them kill at similar speeds (i assume you don't expect to kill at the same speed, but to just be a bit behind instead of light years behind)

so yes even after i've maxed my paly out with what the game has to offer now i still expect it to be a poor performer and due a buff, and after readying the dev diaries i'm even more convinced that LRing now will be a waste of a heart. i was looking at working cleaves and overwhelming crit into my build, now it seems i might be able to get cleaves via action points and OC wont need the cleaves as a pre-req. there is also a whole new S&B tree on it's way so all i can do now is gather gear and fate points to prepare for a big overhaul when the new systems hit live.

so the devs are hell bent on improving the situation and today's S&B builds being able to solo stuff is not going to put them off from smoothing out the balance.

the futures bright, cos it's filled with scaled up light damage :)