Shiradi Not Functioning Question

[Dagolar]

Edit:
===
Highlights:
*About a year ago, all my spell-based shiradi procs had about the same proc rate, hitting about once per mob.
*Then double rainbow procs stopped proccing, haven't seen a single visually noticable once in the year of on and of playing on the toon. A day of testing showed no non-visual proc notifications, either.
*Resetting and reslotting enhancements fixed some weird high-damage-only fire-damage-only procs on Rainbow, and now Double Rainbow gives really rare, but again non-visual only procs.
*Assuming the most frequent proc rate to be 7%, other proc rates seem to be a bit lower, and Double Rainbow seems to be closer to .1%
===

Okay, so, about a year ago, maybe more, I stopped being able to get any sort of shiradi procs [from Double Rainbow specifically, all the core procs still functioned] on my spells [Magic Missile and Chain Missile SLAs, Magic Missile from Wiz Past Life, Force Missiles and Chain Missiles spells, Meteor Swarm, Ice Storm, more.].

Been loading up the character now and then since then, and never seen any of the effects proc.

Spent today actively testing it, here's what I [haven't] noticed:
=
I notice the sonic and force [core] procs.

I occasionally get elemental procs [I've only noticed fire and sonic, and the latter may just be the core proc proccing in succession] that do immediate damage of 1000ish average damage. This seems likely to just be the basic Rainbow proc, rather than any sort of Double Rainbow effect.

I have not noticed the Prism stat damage procs, strangely, though that could always be a creature type issue [been running GH and vale mostly, today].

After an entire day of playing, I haven't seen a SINGLE extra effect, certainly not any of the entertaining Shiradi procs [ala ham, ddoor, etc; not even the visual only effects like cometfall/flame strike].
=

In other words, Double Rainbow [and possibly the other effects] is blatantly not working for my toon.

Now, the question is- is it working for anyone else? Are there conditions involved I'm missing? Do I simply need to reset the ED and 'retrigger' the abilities?
Is it a bug? Is it broken? Will our heroes overcome the villains' dastardly scheme?

Find out next post, on Joy of the Mad Queen!

[vyvy3369]

It's a stance, and you have to activate it each time you log in.

[Violith]

have seen procs working for others, had ham barrels spawn twice recently one just yesterday, so they're working

I'd try resetting the tree and reselecting the enhancements. also, do you make sure that prism is active and you dont have either stay frosty or stay good on (as you can only have 1 stance active). you mentioned fire damage, but 1000 average is kinda high isnt it? its only 1d100, as there is no way increase it 10x that is possibly the double rainbow as the cores dont have fire damage.

[Dagolar]

It's a stance, and you have to activate it each time you log in.

Rainbow and Double Rainbow are passive improvements to the prism stance, not stances in themselves.


have seen procs working for others, had ham barrels spawn twice recently one just yesterday, so they're working

I'd try resetting the tree and reselecting the enhancements. also, do you make sure that prism is active and you dont have either stay frosty or stay good on (as you can only have 1 stance active). you mentioned fire damage, but 1000 average is kinda high isnt it? its only 1d100, as there is no way increase it 10x that is possibly the double rainbow as the cores dont have fire damage.

Let me reemphasize. It WAS working fine up until a specific point in the past. :)

Keep in mind metamagics and spellcraft alone are about 300 spellpower, or +300% damage, not including any potency from items, or enhancements. [And I'm under the impression spellpower still affects procs?]
That being said, I got notably lower, and somewhat higher, as well. Criticals were certainly a factor, and I didn't bother checking which procs were and weren't criticals.

Rainbow- not Double Rainbow- does random elemental procs, so it seems the best bet for the fire damage. The damage is lower than what I recall getting from Double Rainbow in the past, and it wouldn't make sense only to get rare- about 7%, say?- elemental procs from Double Rainbow, but none of the other effects.

So definitely seems like Rainbow is working, but Double is not.

[Dagolar]

so they're working

I'd try resetting the tree and reselecting the enhancements

Okay, weird stuff happened when I reset.
To test, I cleared an entire King's Forest instance [barring any respawns, obviously].
I used only my Magic Missile and Chain Missile SLAs.
=
Sonic procs are the same, so that's all core.

Fire procs vanished- as did the regularly consistent high numbers they were giving me.
Now it's all 120ish+ damage poison, pierce, bludgeoning, etc; in rare circumstances I get up to 400 damage. Crits are still regularly above 1000.

Still not seeing ANY stat damage from Prism, even after checking against basic wilderness humanoids, which shouldn't have any sort of [epic] resistances to stat damage.

In my entire run of the instance, I only got the following Double Rainbow procs:
A single 'Howler Quills', which had no actual damage effect.
A single 'DNT Crushing Blow', which did stun the mob for 2 seconds.
A single Xoriat Bees, which did 400 piercing damage, killed on the first damage proc so no way of telling if the duration was appropriate.

That's it, for an entire instance.
This points out two obvious things-
First, both Rainbow and Double Rainbow should have a 7% chance to proc. I usually got about one Rainbow proc per mob. Double Rainbow was obviously not proccing near that much.
Second, even assuming Double Rainbow is inexplicably proccing per spell instead of per spell hit, and has a lengthy internal timer, and is conditional to the angle of light off the moon, it still shouldn't have as low a proc rate as that.

[Dagolar]

Okay, ran back in with the actual magic missile spell. No real noticable differences from the SLA.

Tested against 100 mobs. Took +/- 3 casts per mob to kill them.

Nerve poisoned about every 3rd mob [for comparative note]

Still got about one Rainbow elemental proc per mob [Favorable Winds procced just a smidge under [closer to once per two mobs], and Fey Power procced a noticable bit less [closer to once per four mobs], but still within the range of basic variation.]

Got two Double Rainbow procs- Howler Quills and Polycurse. Both functioned appropriately.


So yeah. Major issue in the proc rate.

I'll try and do a more precise and larger recording attempt later, when I'm less burnt out, and see if there's an actual reliable difference in the Rainbow/Favorable Winds/Fey Power proc rates, as well.

[Violith]

Okay, weird stuff happened when I reset.
To test, I cleared an entire King's Forest instance [barring any respawns, obviously].
I used only my Magic Missile and Chain Missile SLAs.
=
Sonic procs are the same, so that's all core.

Fire procs vanished- as did the regularly consistent high numbers they were giving me.
Now it's all 120ish+ damage poison, pierce, bludgeoning, etc; in rare circumstances I get up to 400 damage. Crits are still regularly above 1000.

Still not seeing ANY stat damage from Prism, even after checking against basic wilderness humanoids, which shouldn't have any sort of [epic] resistances to stat damage.

In my entire run of the instance, I only got the following Double Rainbow procs:
A single 'Howler Quills', which had no actual damage effect.
A single 'DNT Crushing Blow', which did stun the mob for 2 seconds.
A single Xoriat Bees, which did 400 piercing damage, killed on the first damage proc so no way of telling if the duration was appropriate.

That's it, for an entire instance.
This points out two obvious things-
First, both Rainbow and Double Rainbow should have a 7% chance to proc. I usually got about one Rainbow proc per mob. Double Rainbow was obviously not proccing near that much.
Second, even assuming Double Rainbow is inexplicably proccing per spell instead of per spell hit, and has a lengthy internal timer, and is conditional to the angle of light off the moon, it still shouldn't have as low a proc rate as that.

my xbow using arti uses double rainbow religiously, and aside from those you got, she usually gets dots, dragons fire, spider venom, etc. which usually do about the same damage that the random damage type from the prism. so, are you checking the mob examine window to determine? also, while wilderness does have alot of mobs, tehy usually die rather quickly, and while its 7% that doesnt mean that you can give a ratio per mob accurately. given that mobs usually die within 3-4 hits, thats only close to 21% chance of it effecting them, and you cant say that it'd work in 4-5 mobs since its not additive, and rng always seem to roll alot of low rolls. would be much more effective in a quest, preferably an EE one where mobs have alot of hp where you can test it out on a single mob

[Dagolar]

my xbow using arti uses double rainbow religiously, and aside from those you got, she usually gets dots, dragons fire, spider venom, etc. which usually do about the same damage that the random damage type from the prism.

Shiradi seems to work fine on my ranged toons, as well.

so, are you checking the mob examine window to determine?
Mob window, health bar- procs are noticable, after all- visual effects, of which I've gotten none (other than the stun swirl for that one effect), and there are a lot of shiradi visual effects- and combat log.


also, while wilderness does have alot of mobs, tehy usually die rather quickly, and while its 7% that doesnt mean that you can give a ratio per mob accurately. given that mobs usually die within 3-4 hits, thats only close to 21% chance of it effecting them, and you cant say that it'd work in 4-5 mobs since its not additive, and rng always seem to roll alot of low rolls. would be much more effective in a quest, preferably an EE one where mobs have alot of hp where you can test it out on a single mob

Hence why I cleared an entire instance, and then 100 mobs.
Doing EE is too much of a pain in the ass to solo for testing, since you actually have to pay attention to the play, rather than the various logs/status areas; [and my brain is rather notably slow-paced, in comparison to the average.]
But no, I've run plenty of raids and EEs on the toon [not for testing purposes] and not noticed a single proc. This over a year of play.

Moreso, it's vital you note that it worked fine for the year after MotU released, the functionality noticeably and dramatically changed at that point. I know what to expect both from how it used to be, and how it continues to be for [my] ranged toons.

Moreover, your argument about ratios is flawed-
All the other 7% effects. ALL of them, have made good showings for themselves. Even Nerve Toxin, which wouldn't be noticable if it procced on the fatal hit, has made a significant showing in visual cues alone.
So far Double procs have been at a rough rate of around .1% to .8%. That's far below what could be expected from basic probabilities.
It's not impossible, sure; Even running EEs and raids [even after enhancement reset] with no effects shown isn't outside of probability..

My point isn't the probabilities, it's that the functionality is PROFOUNDLY different than you'd expect from previous uses of the ability, either with spells or with ranged weapons.

Since you've used Shiradi, you know that the chances of NOT getting a noticable double rainbow effect regularly is pretty close to nil.

[Trillea]

So far Double procs have been at a rough rate of around .1% to .8%. That's far below what could be expected from basic probabilities.


This got me to thinking, it may well be a 7% chance to proc a double rainbow ONLY when a 7% chance to proc a single rainbow has been confirmed. That would be a .49% chance, which is right where your stats there are showing they seem to be. The limited sample sizes could easily show the variation of .1% to .8% if the base % is really .49%...

The question remains however, is this WAI if it's what is happening? If so it does not seem to be worth the Destiny points or even a single enhancement point..

[Krell]

Edit:
===
Highlights:
*About a year ago, all my spell-based shiradi procs had about the same proc rate, hitting about once per mob.
*Then double rainbow procs stopped proccing, haven't seen a single visually noticable once in the year of on and of playing on the toon. A day of testing showed no non-visual proc notifications, either.
*Resetting and reslotting enhancements fixed some weird high-damage-only fire-damage-only procs on Rainbow, and now Double Rainbow gives really rare, but again non-visual only procs.
*Assuming the most frequent proc rate to be 7%, other proc rates seem to be a bit lower, and Double Rainbow seems to be closer to .1%
===

Okay, so, about a year ago, maybe more, I stopped being able to get any sort of shiradi procs [from Double Rainbow specifically, all the core procs still functioned] on my spells [Magic Missile and Chain Missile SLAs, Magic Missile from Wiz Past Life, Force Missiles and Chain Missiles spells, Meteor Swarm, Ice Storm, more.].

Been loading up the character now and then since then, and never seen any of the effects proc.

Spent today actively testing it, here's what I [haven't] noticed:
=
I notice the sonic and force [core] procs.

I occasionally get elemental procs [I've only noticed fire and sonic, and the latter may just be the core proc proccing in succession] that do immediate damage of 1000ish average damage. This seems likely to just be the basic Rainbow proc, rather than any sort of Double Rainbow effect.

I have not noticed the Prism stat damage procs, strangely, though that could always be a creature type issue [been running GH and vale mostly, today].

After an entire day of playing, I haven't seen a SINGLE extra effect, certainly not any of the entertaining Shiradi procs [ala ham, ddoor, etc; not even the visual only effects like cometfall/flame strike].
=

In other words, Double Rainbow [and possibly the other effects] is blatantly not working for my toon.

Now, the question is- is it working for anyone else? Are there conditions involved I'm missing? Do I simply need to reset the ED and 'retrigger' the abilities?
Is it a bug? Is it broken? Will our heroes overcome the villains' dastardly scheme?

Find out next post, on Joy of the Mad Queen!

After reading this I took a closer look during multiple quests last night. I made sure to turn off colors of the queen since I do get some visual effects from that. I also noticed I wasn't seeing the various visual effects with missile spells that I used to. Things like comet fall, traps, web line trip, flame strike. The innate abilities were there. Nerve venom works. The only odd proc that I seemed to see a lot of was Heal ;). Hard to believe a double rainbow effect was going off 7% of the time.

[BigErkyKid]

I haven't tested it properly, but I also have the impression that overall Shiradi procs less nowadays.

I played a Shiradi some months ago (perhaps a year?) and have tried two casters on shiradi recently. Procs are far less frequent, in my impression.

Now I have not deeply looked into the Shiradi mechanics, so this may be a gross misunderstanding.

Shiradi has plenty of enhancements that grant 7% chance of proc.


1. Favorable wind: 7% 10d10 sonic

2. Fey power: 7% 2d100 force.

3. Prism: 7% 2d10 damage to a random ability score

4. Rainbow: 7% 1d100 extra damage of a random type

5. Double rainbow: 7% chance to inflict a random effect on your target.


Assuming each of those 5 effects are independent from each other, the probability of proc per missile is 1 minus the probability that neither of them procs:

1-(1-.07)^5 = 0.30

So a bit less that 1 in 3. In every 5 missile salvo, 1.5 should proc in expectation. I am not convinced I am getting them.

Until now I did not say anything because I felt it was just me misremembering but perhaps there is something there?

[Firewall]

I play my shuriken thrower in Shiradi mostly and i get lots of Double Rainbow procs. Everything from AOE damage to DOTs to debuffs, Flesh to Stone, Mass Frog, Webline Trip, Sonic vulnerability, Quills, Bees, a summoned woodland creature and whatnot.
Remember that with every update and patch the probability of the procs changes and that there are many procs that do not have a visual effect but simply debuff (or sometimes even buff) the monster so you have to watch the monsters buff bar as well as visual effects and damage carefully to catch them all. To test it is most useful to fight an orange named or red named with many hitpoints and keep the monster info window open at all times.

[Dagolar]

I play my shuriken thrower in Shiradi mostly and i get lots of Double Rainbow procs. Everything from AOE damage to DOTs to debuffs, Flesh to Stone, Mass Frog, Webline Trip, Sonic vulnerability, Quills, Bees, a summoned woodland creature and whatnot.
Remember that with every update and patch the probability of the procs changes and that there are many procs that do not have a visual effect but simply debuff (or sometimes even buff) the monster so you have to watch the monsters buff bar as well as visual effects and damage carefully to catch them all. To test it is most useful to fight an orange named or red named with many hitpoints and keep the monster info window open at all times.

Missing the point there, hun.
It WORKS with ranged weapons. Noone has any issues with ranged weapon shiradis.

Even core and Rainbow procs work fine with spells.
It's just an issue with Double Rainbow procs, and only in regards to spells.

And it may not even be consistent per spellcaster, that's one of the things we're trying to figure out =O

Or rather; A year ago, spells worked the exact same as ranged attacks.
Since then, for some or all spellcasters, visual Double Rainbow procs never ever proc, and of the Double Rainbow procs that do activate, their frequency is DRAMATICALLY lower [than it used to be/than it is still for ranged toons].

As noted, I kept the status window open; kept watch on the status procs and health bar for anything not seen in the combat log; and of course, an eye on the combat log.
Even assuming something was changed that prevented ANY visual procs from occuring, my testing revealed the other procs to not be functioning as expected.

We're also talking an entire year of play without any visual procs ever.
How often does your ranged toon go without a visual proc? Maybe 3 minutes, at most, right?
Moreover, shiradi procs are NOTICABLE. They tend to do massive damage, or other dramatic effects.

No matter what the circumstances are, there is a definitive, noticeable bug [or a really weird intentional and notable reduction in caster shiradi power].
The question now is more 'what are the specifics of the bug' and 'how prevalent is it', rather than 'does it exist at all'.

I'm thinking I'll hit the portal out in Vale for subsequent testing; it has decent health and doesn't fight back, and should make for a reliable source of data.
Moreover, I'm going to try using ranged weapons on THIS toon, and see if the issue might be toon-specific, rather than build-specific.

[Dagolar]

After reading this I took a closer look during multiple quests last night. I made sure to turn off colors of the queen since I do get some visual effects from that. I also noticed I wasn't seeing the various visual effects with missile spells that I used to. Things like comet fall, traps, web line trip, flame strike. The innate abilities were there. Nerve venom works. The only odd proc that I seemed to see a lot of was Heal ;). Hard to believe a double rainbow effect was going off 7% of the time.

When you say Heal, do you mean a Double Rainbow spell proc, or a Rainbow positive energy damage?
'cause I see the latter quite a bit. :)

[Krell]

When you say Heal, do you mean a Double Rainbow spell proc, or a Rainbow positive energy damage?
'cause I see the latter quite a bit. :)

A lot of green numbers and enemy health bars bumping up. Looks like a Heal but hard to say for sure.