EE Deathwyrm unplayable instance - Video

[G_Lich]

Streaming EE Deathwyrm Lag - Details to follow.

http://www.twitch.tv/g_lich/

Including GM Tickets and responses - All canned, other than the response for one party member that any additional tickets would be considered abuse.

Edit2:

GM A: Closed all tickets - Responded with comment that any more could be considered abuse of the ticket system. (No more than 4 submitted in 20 minute period after all were instantly closed with canned responses, many other members of the party received the same).
...

Other members of party requested tickets, tickets closed - Upon my suggestion the group leader asked in a new ticket simply for a supervisor to discuss the service level we received so far.

...

GM B (Assuming Supervisor) : Contacted by member of PC after 2 Hour Raid - (1 Hour of sending tickets and dealing w/ lag, resurrections, broken gear) Raid completed and 4 chests spawned. None were raid chests, additional requests made by PC Member. 2 Raid Spawns. (Interesting note: spawned chests gave 2 phlogs, 1 battlerager harness dropped)

No names for GM's are included in this post to keep in line with terms of service.

The second GM resolved the situation admirably, our problem was that it required a supervisor and more customer service grief before we got anything good going.

In any case, the second of two raids at end game lags to a party-wiping state. This is what we've all been working so hard for, getting gear, building toons, leveling up incessantly - here's your endgame.

http://www.twitch.tv/g_lich/b/549197628
Unedited - Mostly discussion while we attempted to fix the problem on our end w/ my DC - unfortunately it didn't fix much for those topside. - http://www.twitch.tv/g_lich/b/549197628
Black screen is while I was closed but before reloading into the game again. This raid turns us all into amateur troubleshooters.

http://www.twitch.tv/g_lich/b/549207601
First batch of tickets. NSFW. language.

[Bridge_Dweller]

There's no lag in DDO.

[G_Lich]

Updated

[goldgolem]

I quit for a few months because I was so disappointed with GM responses in endgame raids constantly bugging. Customer service should not be dependant on who you get as a GM

but not that turbine will care...

[Oxarhamar]

Opening more than one ticket is a sure fire way to cause problems.

Always select one player to submit a ticket who is calm and can deal with the situation politely.

Multiple tickets especially from irritated players is only going to cause you more grief.


I have had no problems with GMs anytime I have openned a ticket but, there is a way to go about it.

[goldgolem]

I have had no problems with GMs anytime I have openned a ticket but, there is a way to go about it.

So you have opened tickets in tons of bugged end game raids and been sorted out by the GMs? You must b the luckiest person playing DDO

[G_Lich]

From a service request standpoint, multiple tickets being closed by one solved issue is a good deal for the CSR/Service Advocate, they get a better Tickets closed per hour/SLA metric for solving the issue.

Multiple tickets were submitted because one would get submitted, and immediately be closed with a canned response, so someone else would put one up, same deal, another person, same deal, another person submits one, then another, then another. Why? Because we're irritated? Yes. But now we're more irritated with the poor service than the poorly engineered instance. Full game freezes for some of our teammates was a problem. The game we have paid for becomes unplayable, and we get a canned response. There is no acknowledgement of the issue, we can't be expected to have to contact a GM every time to get a completion on EE, but we also can't be expected to pretend something works when it doesn't and it was just a "fluke" - It happens all the time.

I would say we can't come to expect GM's to come to the rescue every time, just every time it lags out. If the maytag man sells you a broken dishwasher you had better bet that someone will be calling him every day it doesn't wash dishes. If he instead sent you a text message saying "We know our machines have issues, our engineers are working on them, and they can't fix every single one of the problems at once." You might feel extra upset about having to wash dishes by hand.

The double-barreled problem I have here can be solved with 1 of 2 fixes:
Fix EE Instances/Poor AI (Just a guess, since it seems to be tied to spawns)
or Fix Customer Service
or Both?

P.S.: These are not fixes:
Quit the instance and start over.
Send canned response with or without apology.
Do Nothing.
Expect players to exploit/cheat or otherwise run the raid differently than designed to avoid the freeze-causing problem.

The only logical responses to how this situation should have been handled are depressing... i.e. Know that DDO doesn't have adequate resources for A. a quality game experience and B. a high level of service from customer support.

This is end... game... if the carrot starts to look rotten, the mule stops walking.

[Oxarhamar]

So you have opened tickets in tons of bugged end game raids and been sorted out by the GMs? You must b the luckiest person playing DDO

I've had numerous quests & raids bug out due to lag (mabar/cove opening) bugs (lever interrupt/ Deathwyrm calling shadows and getting stuck in the wall. Required optionals not spawning. Completed objectives not being checked off.

Never once had an issue with getting a GM response & assistance. Being polite goes a long way.

[Scrapco]

Here's my surprised face at finding out which GM it was:
:-|

[Highlander]

I've had numerous quests & raids bug out due to lag (mabar/cove opening) bugs (lever interrupt/ Deathwyrm calling shadows and getting stuck in the wall. Required optionals not spawning. Completed objectives not being checked off.

Never once had an issue with getting a GM response & assistance. Being polite goes a long way.

The point remains Oxar - what would you do if your bugs were closed with a canned response?
You've just spent 2 hours on an EE raid, and you effectively get told to "go away".

I think the GM's need to be held to a higher standard. The canned responses are very disrespectful.

Isn't it funny how 1 GM can't (or won't) fix a problem, but another can?
What does that imply about the first one? Unwilling or incapable?

And some would say in this example, "yeah, but the second is a supervisor/senior GM"
Why didn't the first GM escalate it? It is a known problem and you have twelve peeved players - what does it take for you to actually give some customer service??

I agree with your point about being polite to increase your chances.
But they had no choice to submit multiple tickets when they keep getting ignored.

[jalont]

There's been a lot of times I've had a regular GM unable (due to either inexperience or not being allowed to) to help me where a senior GM has. Either regular GMs need better training and given more leeway to do things, or there needs to be a procedure in place where GMs automatically send the request up the chain. Sometimes I feel like the GM and the Senior GM are sitting right next to each other due to response time, but this probably isn't true. I know they CAN work effectively together, I'm just not sure why they always don't.

[SirValentine]

The double-barreled problem I have here can be solved with 1 of 2 fixes:
Fix EE Instances/Poor AI (Just a guess, since it seems to be tied to spawns)
or Fix Customer Service
or Both?

P.S.: These are not fixes:
Quit the instance and start over.
Send canned response with or without apology.
Do Nothing.
Expect players to exploit/cheat or otherwise run the raid differently than designed to avoid the freeze-causing problem.


The lag freezes happen, and Turbine knows they happen. They've happened since the raid first came out. Though not an ideal solution, releasing and re-entering was a viable half-donkeyed solution players could use.

But then they decided to go and add a lock-out without first fixing the lag. What's up with that?

[hkusp45]

Khyber group Completed EE Wyrm last night with minimal lag issues , however previous days attempt was fine until we entered last fight then lag was prevalent & killed all .

[goldgolem]

I've had numerous quests & raids bug out due to lag (mabar/cove opening) bugs (lever interrupt/ Deathwyrm calling shadows and getting stuck in the wall. Required optionals not spawning. Completed objectives not being checked off.

Never once had an issue with getting a GM response & assistance. Being polite goes a long way.


So you know nothing about GM responses in these raids then...

[Enoach]

While not an EE Deathwyrm raid, last night our EN run of this raid had such bad lag that it killed the entire group. We had the dragon at a sliver of health in the middle and bam everyone stopped - except the mobs that is.

The PL calmly put in a ticket and after 20 minutes the GM was able to help us by providing a means to allow all party members to get back up. By this time the Lag had cleared and the party was able to complete.

What this tells me is the issue is not an EE issue, it appears there is a reason this raid and its counterpart suffer from such bad lag and I don't believe it is multiple effects from Characters. I would like for them to dig a bit deeper and see if the issue is related to how spawning happens, this is where I have noticed the most spikes and even the most stops in the ability to move.


@EDIT:
As a note the problem with multiple tickets is that it can cause a backlog of tickets adding more time to get to other tickets. Using the single point of contact in the group will help prevent unnecessary tickets. Personally if you feel you need to put your own ticket in, do so as a bug report

[Avenging_Angel]

Why is being a member of the Player Council relevant to the discussion? Because it shouldn't be.

[Oxarhamar]

So you know nothing about GM responses in these raids then...

Guess listing Deathwyrm as one of the quests I have had to call a GM for doesn't count. My upwards of 80 completions neighther.


But maybe that's why you have trouble with the GMs

[Lifespawn]

canned responses shouldn't happen like that the Very least they should do is escalate it.


Nothing gets you to being less polite and ****ed off than having a response of this is a known issue but there is nothing we can do for you thank you and have a nice day.

Followed immediately by is there anything else we can help you with.

Then ticket closed......

[G_Lich]

Guess listing Deathwyrm as one of the quests I have had to call a GM for doesn't count. My upwards of 80 completions neighther.


But maybe that's why you have trouble with the GMs


Many people have problems with the GM's, there is a detailed description here. There are videos with conversations detailing a problem with a specific GM for at least 3 people at the same time. Accusing problems on player behavior is sympathizing.

[blerkington]

canned responses shouldn't happen like that the Very least they should do is escalate it.

Nothing gets you to being less polite and ****ed off than having a response of this is a known issue but there is nothing we can do for you thank you and have a nice day.

Followed immediately by is there anything else we can help you with.

Then ticket closed......

Hi,

Yes, exactly.

Oxar, your polite approach and some good luck may mean that you haven't had any bad service from GMs, but there are people who have, myself included.

The service from GMs is extremely uneven. Sometimes they are knowledgeable and helpful, other times it's like they want to close your ticket as fast as possible without doing anything to help at all.

Over the years I've had GMs help my groups with problems on some occasions, while for the same bug other GMs have claimed it's impossible to do anything. It's pretty poor customer service when you know that the GM is lying to your face about what they can and can't do.

I've said it before, but I think the standard of customer service would be greatly improved by three things.

First, retrain your GMs so that they understand helping customers, rather than closing tickets quickly, is the priority.

Second, post a clear policy about what GMs can and can't do, so people's expectations are realistic.

Third, allow some sort of detailed feedback about GM service with every ticket. That will help the person monitoring CS quality to decide whether bad feedback is accurate or vexatious.

Thanks.

[Highlander]

Hi,

Yes, exactly.

Oxar, your polite approach and some good luck may mean that you haven't had any bad service from GMs, but there are people who have, myself included.

The service from GMs is extremely uneven. Sometimes they are knowledgeable and helpful, other times it's like they want to close your ticket as fast as possible without doing anything to help at all.

Over the years I've had GMs help my groups with problems on some occasions, while for the same bug other GMs have claimed it's impossible to do anything. It's pretty poor customer service when you know that the GM is lying to your face about what they can and can't do.

I've said it before, but I think the standard of customer service would be greatly improved by three things.

First, retrain your GMs so that they understand helping customers, rather than closing tickets quickly, is the priority.

Second, post a clear policy about what GMs can and can't do, so people's expectations are realistic.

Third, allow some sort of detailed feedback about GM service with every ticket. That will help the person monitoring CS quality to decide whether bad feedback is accurate or vexatious.

Thanks.

+1 and well said.

I think at this stage, the feedback is important as some GM's are just hopeless while others are very helpful. I can understand that some may not know the soln, but they all work off a database of issues and potential solns. If they don't know, they should at least check with a senior or escalate.
I would like the opportunity to provide both positive and negative feedback to CS issues.

[Miow]

Opening more than one ticket is a sure fire way to cause problems.

Always select one player to submit a ticket who is calm and can deal with the situation politely.

Multiple tickets especially from irritated players is only going to cause you more grief.


I have had no problems with GMs anytime I have openned a ticket but, there is a way to go about it.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8262574848/hA75755A0/

[Oxarhamar]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8262574848/hA75755A0/

no one said "all is fine" but, it be a good idea to practice patients, be polite, and definitely not open multi tickets from multi hot headed foul language players.

There is a way to go about getting better customer service (not just in game) and its not the NSFW way

[morkahn82]

Hi,

Yes, exactly.

Oxar, your polite approach and some good luck may mean that you haven't had any bad service from GMs, but there are people who have, myself included.

The service from GMs is extremely uneven. Sometimes they are knowledgeable and helpful, other times it's like they want to close your ticket as fast as possible without doing anything to help at all.

Over the years I've had GMs help my groups with problems on some occasions, while for the same bug other GMs have claimed it's impossible to do anything. It's pretty poor customer service when you know that the GM is lying to your face about what they can and can't do.

I've said it before, but I think the standard of customer service would be greatly improved by three things.

First, retrain your GMs so that they understand helping customers, rather than closing tickets quickly, is the priority.

Second, post a clear policy about what GMs can and can't do, so people's expectations are realistic.

Third, allow some sort of detailed feedback about GM service with every ticket. That will help the person monitoring CS quality to decide whether bad feedback is accurate or vexatious.

Thanks.

The excellence of this post is stunning. Turbine/GM read this.

[Knobull]

What happened to the twitch videos? The links now lead to a page that says: "I'M SORRY, THAT PAGE IS IN ANOTHER CASTLE!" :(

I wanted to check them again to compare the GM name to one I had a similar experience with recently. If the videos have been pulled could you PM me the name of that GM?

[Nayus]

no one said "all is fine" but, it be a good idea to practice patients, be polite, and definitely not open multi tickets from multi hot headed foul language players.

There is a way to go about getting better customer service (not just in game) and its not the NSFW wayI have my problems but I delight myself with things like this.

So he spends hours and hours improving his toon to do a EE Raid.
He gathers competent people for it.
All he gets in an almost unplayable instance but he moves on...
He spends 1 hour in that raid. THAT raid. With THAT going on.

He did send a ticket. And it was canned. Did you read the OP?

So what are you trying to propose here? How can he "be polite and deal with the situation patiently"? He sent the ticket, it was canned.

How do you propose that he tries to be patience? Should he stand there all day? Because he already sent the ticket and it was canned.

Nothing else was gonna happen. There is no way to "deal with the situation". The ticket had already been sent. And it was canned.