Cult of the Six: Fall of the Prelate

[MrYenen]

There seems to be a bug in this quest, in that there is no way to open a certain door without a high strength or you're a rogue. Not really sure how to proceed since it seems to be required to go through this door.

[Nayus]

There seems to be a bug in this quest, in that there is no way to open a certain door without a high strength or you're a rogue. Not really sure how to proceed since it seems to be required to go through this door.
Welcome to D&D, some things require specific abilities.

That door you're taking about can be picked if you bring a rogue friend or smashed if you have 18 STR so open your character sheet and check if a Rage pot and a Bull's Strength item will help.

If you really can't reach that STR then well.. it should be incompletable but you can visit the DDOStore and buy a "Bell of Opening" to open the quest or maybe a Gold Seal Rogue Hireling with Lock Pick but I don't think the latter is very reliable, a Bell of Opening is pretty cheap and a smarter choice

EDIT: Oh, if you're playing a Sorcerer or Wizard you can bring the "Knock" Spell to open the door.

[MrYenen]

Yeah, I thought about the rage and bull's strength but if they stacked it would only bring me to 16.

And I assume the idea of buying an item from the ddo store to open one door was a joke. :p

As for requiring certain abilities to get through quests, that's fine if it's an optional door leading to treasure, but something mandatory like this really shouldn't require anything specific.

[Tscheuss]

Yeah, I thought about the rage and bull's strength but if they stacked it would only bring me to 16.

And I assume the idea of buying an item from the ddo store to open one door was a joke. :p

As for requiring certain abilities to get through quests, that's fine if it's an optional door leading to treasure, but something mandatory like this really shouldn't require anything specific.

Which server? Perhaps you could put up an LFM asking for a door opener/smasher. :)

[doubledge]

You forgot plan C: Kill it with fire. Fireball, Firewall, Flame strike: all of these can destroy the door that is blocking your way. Knock also should work.

[MrYenen]

Which server? Perhaps you could put up an LFM asking for a door opener/smasher. :)

i'm on Argonessen, and any LFM i've put up has always met with no interest. It seems difficult to get anyone to do anything in this game.

As for killing it with fire, I don't have any of those abilities and nothing with the ability to cast it has ever come up in a loot list.

[Drakyes_01]

yeah that door really got me the first time so I usually have on me the bracer from chrono raid for the fireball clickies that will blast the door away. plus the other advices mention, ddo store items, pots, hirelings (melee hirelings w/ cleave, just park it really close to door and cleave it open, just leave hireling at beginning of quest)---well now u know of that door hope it doesnt trip u up the next time.

[Chilldude]

As for requiring certain abilities to get through quests, that's fine if it's an optional door leading to treasure, but something mandatory like this really shouldn't require anything specific.

DDO wasn't orginally designed to be soloed. Certainly not by just anyone. It was originally designed as a an MMORPG, and as such, many of the quests require teamwork, some outright demand it.

[Nayus]

Yeah, I thought about the rage and bull's strength but if they stacked it would only bring me to 16.

And I assume the idea of buying an item from the ddo store to open one door was a joke. :p

As for requiring certain abilities to get through quests, that's fine if it's an optional door leading to treasure, but something mandatory like this really shouldn't require anything specific.

It was not.

It should, sorry but this isn't just another MMO, you'll find many more quests where just a "kill mobs, go next room and kill mobs again" mindset won't work.

[MrYenen]

DDO wasn't orginally designed to be soloed. Certainly not by just anyone. It was originally designed as a an MMORPG, and as such, many of the quests require teamwork, some outright demand it.

Well the problem with that is that there doesn't seem to be much activity in this game, so I have no choice but to solo.

[Tscheuss]

Well the problem with that is that there doesn't seem to be much activity in this game, so I have no choice but to solo.

Could be that the activity is not at your level at this time. There are a few active TR's in your range, though.

[MrYenen]

Could be that the activity is not at your level at this time. There are a few active TR's in your range, though.

A few? That's unfortunate.

[Thalone]

Even if you had people at your level, Co6 isn't particularly popular. I run pretty much all content every life because I do max favour TRs. But I imagine most people don't like all the silly back-and-forth running. It feels like the running in the explorer takes longer than the actual quests. Most of the time I finish before the wilderness resets and then it's time to do laps...

[Powskier]

if you pick Augment Summon Feat..they get +4 all stats

[MrYenen]

Even if you had people at your level, Co6 isn't particularly popular. I run pretty much all content every life because I do max favour TRs. But I imagine most people don't like all the silly back-and-forth running. It feels like the running in the explorer takes longer than the actual quests. Most of the time I finish before the wilderness resets and then it's time to do laps...

It's very frustrating. It's hard to stay interested in playing this game when everyone wants to do hard/elite runs if you get anyone interested in doing the quest you're on in the first place. It's too bad because the game seems fun otherwise. *shrug*

[Scrabbler]

It's very frustrating. It's hard to stay interested in playing this game when everyone wants to do hard/elite runs if you get anyone interested in doing the quest you're on in the first place. It's too bad because the game seems fun otherwise. *shrug*
Yup, blame it on the devs for introducing Bravery Streak. Those players may get seriously penalized if they join your Normal run... not simply by getting less XP for that one run, but by ongoing less XP for the next several quests they do after leaving your group!!

[Tshober]

It's very frustrating. It's hard to stay interested in playing this game when everyone wants to do hard/elite runs if you get anyone interested in doing the quest you're on in the first place. It's too bad because the game seems fun otherwise. *shrug*

I agree somewhat with that assessment. I basically became a mostly solo player because I wanted to actually see and experience the content rather than run through it as fast as possible trying to keep up with people who have run the quest dozens of times and know every trick to skip to quest completion as quickly as possible. And the bravery bonus thing is really awful for new players. It is a very strong incentive to never run on normal, or even on hard.

I have run Co6 on many characters and never had a problem with the door like you did. I tend to build my characters to solo, for the reasons above, so they all tend to have some way to get through locked doors. There are much more difficult things to get around as a solo players, like quests where you need to stand on 4 pressure plates at once, as one example. And DDO isn't like those old style D&D games where you could throw some rocks on a pressure plate to activate it. They built a game that is supposed to require teams but they also put a large number of incentives to solo into the game as well. It is my opinion that the incentives to solo were put in unintentionally, but whether they were meant to be there or not doesn't really matter.

[Rykka]

It's very frustrating. It's hard to stay interested in playing this game when everyone wants to do hard/elite runs if you get anyone interested in doing the quest you're on in the first place. It's too bad because the game seems fun otherwise. *shrug*

http://progressquest.com/play/

[Paleus]

the bracer from chrono raid for the fireball clickies that will blast the door away.

Just to reiterate, this is a good piece of gear to have on characters that might be required to breakdown doors and cant naturally knock, cast fireball, strength bash, or pick their way through. Its also relatively easy to get.

[Qhualor]

buy a plat barb or fighter hire. they should be able to break down the door.

[Gremmlynn]

As for requiring certain abilities to get through quests, that's fine if it's an optional door leading to treasure, but something mandatory like this really shouldn't require anything specific.I agree that this is where the line should probably be drawn.

[byzantinebob]

Artificers can use rune arms with a blast shot to open as well. There's a number of ways to do it. Chock it up to a learning experience and be prepared in the future.

[MrYenen]

Just to reiterate, this is a good piece of gear to have on characters that might be required to breakdown doors and cant naturally knock, cast fireball, strength bash, or pick their way through. Its also relatively easy to get.

That requires doing the Chronoscape raid. As I've said it's difficult to get any players to do anything, so this is NOT easy to get.

Rykka, that's a cool game and all!!!! Not sure how linking it is supposed to be helpful but i'm sure it made sense to you.

Byzantinebob, it has definately been a learning experience. Mostly I've learned that this game is really unhelpful to new players. It's no wonder there are so few players.

[TrinityTurtle]

Yup, blame it on the devs for introducing Bravery Streak. Those players may get seriously penalized if they join your Normal run... not simply by getting less XP for that one run, but by ongoing less XP for the next several quests they do after leaving your group!!

No, we don't blame it on the bravery streak. I don't have a short memory, I remember long before the bravery bonus was a thing. I started in 09. And it was still 90% elite runs and the only people who generally wanted to do hard or normal runs were for people who wanted to do the quest over and over again until their eyes bled. The lfm boards were filled with 'elite opener' wanted, because back then vips coudln't open elite either, and people would form up to get elite from one person and share it with their groups to share with other people, endlessly.

Elite only is NOT a new mindset, and it's not tied purely to bravery bonus. Dying in a quest back then was even worse than it is now and players would have nuclear meltdowns over not getting that 10% bonus MUCH more often than now with all the extra quest bonuses, and extra quests to run in general.

[Nayus]

That requires doing the Chronoscape raid. As I've said it's difficult to get any players to do anything, so this is NOT easy to get.

Rykka, that's a cool game and all!!!! Not sure how linking it is supposed to be helpful but i'm sure it made sense to you.

Byzantinebob, it has definately been a learning experience. Mostly I've learned that this game is really unhelpful to new players. It's no wonder there are so few players.

People already came up with a f2p answer: To buy a melee hireling with cleave. You can find those downstairs the Marketplace entrance.

I'm unhappy to tell you this but you're not getting anywhere, this isn't WoW, no matter how much you complain DDO requires a team to complete a lot of quests, even if you organize a parade or somethig, Turbine won't change it.

I would suggest changing your server to Thelanis or Ghallanda, DDO may not be thrilling with players but it's definitely not a wasteland that you can never find any player to play with you. Unfortunately you might have to do "Elite for BB" run, think of it as an opportunity to get how the game is most often played, you might die a few times but someone will definitely take you to the shrine (or at that level they might even Raise you) and after this, you'll be able to socialize and actually play with other players often without problems.

But then again, you can just buy a melee hireling with cleave.

[cdbd3rd]

Another thought, tho I admit I haven't tried using these items against breakable doors:

Rogue-made grenades? (Can usually find some on AH, or post for some in /Trade channel)


Argo... PM at ya, OP.


EDIT: I logged in and made a stack of grenades. They do work nicely against breakable doors.

There are a bunch of Weak stacks on AH for 150p, and I have a stack (of 49 Smalls) you can have.

[MrYenen]

People already came up with a f2p answer: To buy a melee hireling with cleave. You can find those downstairs the Marketplace entrance.

I'm unhappy to tell you this but you're not getting anywhere, this isn't WoW, no matter how much you complain DDO requires a team to complete a lot of quests, even if you organize a parade or somethig, Turbine won't change it.

I would suggest changing your server to Thelanis or Ghallanda, DDO may not be thrilling with players but it's definitely not a wasteland that you can never find any player to play with you. Unfortunately you might have to do "Elite for BB" run, think of it as an opportunity to get how the game is most often played, you might die a few times but someone will definitely take you to the shrine (or at that level they might even Raise you) and after this, you'll be able to socialize and actually play with other players often without problems.

But then again, you can just buy a melee hireling with cleave.

If I just bought a melee hireling, I would lose my healer. So that's not doable.

I'm not sure where the WoW reference is coming from.

[Qhualor]

If I just bought a melee hireling, I would lose my healer. So that's not doable.

I'm not sure where the WoW reference is coming from.

dismiss the hire

run back to start

summon new hire

break down door

dismiss hire

run back to start

go pee and grab a drink

re-summon healer hire

[cdbd3rd]

If I just bought a melee hireling, I would lose my healer. So that's not doable.

I'm not sure where the WoW reference is coming from.

If one of them was a Gold Seal hireling, you could have both active.

However, see my edit to post above. PM me a char name and I'll drop some grenades in your mail.**


** Hehheh. That's really not as evil as it sounds! :D

[cdbd3rd]

Waited...

Grenades added to those on AH.

Working solution available there.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

No, we don't blame it on the bravery streak. I don't have a short memory, I remember long before the bravery bonus was a thing. I started in 09. And it was still 90% elite runs and the only people who generally wanted to do hard or normal runs were for people who wanted to do the quest over and over again until their eyes bled. The lfm boards were filled with 'elite opener' wanted, because back then vips coudln't open elite either, and people would form up to get elite from one person and share it with their groups to share with other people, endlessly.

Elite only is NOT a new mindset, and it's not tied purely to bravery bonus. Dying in a quest back then was even worse than it is now and players would have nuclear meltdowns over not getting that 10% bonus MUCH more often than now with all the extra quest bonuses, and extra quests to run in general.

I second this. It's also an effect of the TR cycle, and the extent to which that's really what the game is now. How many wingless toons do you see past the harbor anymore? Rest assured, after one completion toon and a half-dozen other multi-life toons, there's not much point in running N or H difficulties.

[qweeve]

http://progressquest.com/play/

I must say, visually, ddo blows this game out of the water. However, progressquest runs much smoother. No lag issues, no double log-ins, no long waits for load screens.

[Xioden]

Sorrowdusk, and Tangleroot are two areas that could really use level adjustments. When you have 2 packs with with 10 quests each, that each take less than 5 minutes, where there are 2 quests per level spread over 4 levels, you end up with few, or no LFG for these quests as people are just going to run though the two at-level quests in 2 minutes for bravery bonus and be done with it until the next level. If there no level difference, or it was smaller, it would be easier to find a group as you would see people wanting to run the entire thing, even if they miss bravery bonus on one or two (or run bravery bonus under level).

Delera's is similar, but I see it run for BB at level 9 even though the first quest loses bravery bonus and thrall of the necromancer is actually level 11 on elite.

Gianthold is also commonly run at walkup level+2 for the whole saga.

[Scrabbler]

I'm unhappy to tell you this but you're not getting anywhere, this isn't WoW, no matter how much you complain DDO requires a team to complete a lot of quests, even if you organize a parade or somethig, Turbine won't change it.
Oh no, Turbine certainly will change the quests if they notice it and get around to it.

They have firmly changed their design plans so that all new quests (besides raids) can be completed solo, without needing special hirelings or things like that. And they've already gone back to remove these kinds of requirements from existing dungeons. Caverns of Korromar used to require 16+ in Wisdom, Intelligence, and Dexterity... but give it a try today.

[Tscheuss]

Another thought, tho I admit I haven't tried using these items against breakable doors:

Rogue-made grenades? (Can usually find some on AH, or post for some in /Trade channel)


Argo... PM at ya, OP.


EDIT: I logged in and made a stack of grenades. They do work nicely against breakable doors.

There are a bunch of Weak stacks on AH for 150p, and I have a stack (of 49 Smalls) you can have.


If one of them was a Gold Seal hireling, you could have both active.

However, see my edit to post above. PM me a char name and I'll drop some grenades in your mail.**


** Hehheh. That's really not as evil as it sounds! :D


Waited...

Grenades added to those on AH.

Working solution available there.

^^ Here is your answer. :)

[phinius]

Burning hands will also break doors and STK has an end reward with 3 charges of burning hands.

[Paleus]

Waited...

Grenades added to those on AH.

Working solution available there.

Honestly not surprised. There have been a variety of options for getting through a door offered. But rather than adjusting one's playstyle to the challenge of the game, some would like the game challenge to adjust to their playstyle. For example, suggested getting a hireling with cleave. Retort: but then I couldn't use my cleric hireling. Suggested doing a chrono loot run (on Argo) Retort: That's impossible to put together (I'm on Argo, I've seen those LFMs often enough to know its not impossible). Heck, now even giving away grenades seems to not do the trick here. Frankly, it should not be so challenging to figure a way out on how to break through a door after being given so many options.

Also, side note: Cult of the Six, Tangleroot, Shan-to-Kor are all examples of out of date quest design from Turbine, with regards specifically to the level ranges of the quests. As others have noted, in an era of bravery streaks and a frankly easily solo'ed game (with the exception of wooden doors of doom) quest chains with a wide spread of levels are going to be difficult to pug with random people (assuming one doesnt have a regular group). The only game design change I would suggest here is to adjust the level range of the quests in this chain to all be the same, or the first part all be one level and the second part all be the next level or two up (no recommendation on what level).

[Algreg]

If I just bought a melee hireling, I would lose my healer. So that's not doable.

I'm not sure where the WoW reference is coming from.

I am really starting to wonder what you are actually playing. You apparently cannot bash down the door, cannot cast spells / use items that imitate spells (like scrolls and wands of mentioned spells), cannot pick lock and you have to rely on a healing hireling, implying you are not playing a divine class either (or some hybrid with self healing). Initially I was seeing your issue as a real problem, but the more advice you shrug off, it seems more and more like a "I don´t bother with solutions" issue, less one of game design.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I am really starting to wonder what you are actually playing. You apparently cannot bash down the door, cannot cast spells / use items that imitate spells (like scrolls and wands of mentioned spells), cannot pick lock and you have to rely on a healing hireling, implying you are not playing a divine class either (or some hybrid with self healing). Initially I was seeing your issue as a real problem, but the more advice you shrug off, it seems more and more like a "I don´t bother with solutions" issue, less one of game design.

I figured the OP was just a weak trolling attempt. When you call a locked, bashable door a "bug" in a forum post rather than asking how to get past it (or, you know, file a bug report), you probably aren't looking for solutions.

[moomooprincess]

I know where the OP is coming from. When I login I want to run the quests I WANT to run. Usually, when I did put up an LFM, no one wants to run those quests. So, I began to solo. I never join groups and then ask to run XYZ quest, which is what usually happen if someone did join. "hey, let's go run the PIT!!"

When I encounter something like this door, I recall, and buy the proper cheap hireling. Fireballs still open doors? Good to know. Used to be burning hands clickies did it, which is why I always had them, but that was nerfed sometime in the past. I have had no problem soloing Sorrowdusk except for keeping Coyle alive on ELITE. So, all my characters have that one on hard. I am okay with that.

Theere are also some of those wands from Crystal Cove that have knock, 10 charges I think. I used to carry those but found that I rarely ever used then and they became inventory cloggers.

[Funny_looking_mole]

Oh no, Turbine certainly will change the quests if they notice it and get around to it.

They have firmly changed their design plans so that all new quests (besides raids) can be completed solo, without needing special hirelings or things like that. And they've already gone back to remove these kinds of requirements from existing dungeons. Caverns of Korromar used to require 16+ in Wisdom, Intelligence, and Dexterity... but give it a try today.

Not remembering that, I went and checked. And sure enough, Caverns of Korromar used to need stat checks, which were removed 4 months after the game launched. Which would seem to me more like a tweak for a current quest, rather than an attempt to go back and make quests easier to solo.

http://www.ddo.com/en/game/release-notes/module-2

[Deadlock]

i'm on Argonessen, and any LFM i've put up has always met with no interest. It seems difficult to get anyone to do anything in this game.

As for killing it with fire, I don't have any of those abilities and nothing with the ability to cast it has ever come up in a loot list.

You can also buy fireball wands in House J and House P.

[Gremmlynn]

When I encounter something like this door, I recall, and buy the proper cheap hireling. Fireballs still open doors? Good to know. Used to be burning hands clickies did it, which is why I always had them, but that was nerfed sometime in the past. I have had no problem soloing Sorrowdusk except for keeping Coyle alive on ELITE. So, all my characters have that one on hard. I am okay with that.When did Coyle move from Threnal to Sarrowdusk?

[Thrudh]

Byzantinebob, it has definately been a learning experience. Mostly I've learned that this game is really unhelpful to new players. It's no wonder there are so few players.

You've been here 2.5 years... You're not a new player...

It's okay to fail. Learn something and try again.

I remember the first time my character got blinded, and my whole screen went dark (you could still see player's names I think), and I had to recall.. I took me a bit of work to get into the tavern and get healed by the NPC.

I learned to carry remove blindness potions after that...

I remember the first time my party wiped in STK... We learned what NOT to do, went back in, and tried again.

People have given you a ton of good suggestions in this thread... Try the quest again...

[Powskier]

prob a bull str potion woulda done the trick(if you need a cleric hire as op said,he/she is melee then im guessin)tangleroot is at a lvl that +2 str would be a good boost..bull is+4,of course.Market potion trader center of map

[donblas]

You've been here 2.5 years... You're not a new player...

I remember the first time my character got blinded, and my whole screen went dark (you could still see player's names I think), and I had to recall.. I took me a bit of work to get into the tavern and get healed by the NPC.

I learned to carry remove blindness potions after that...

I...

Happened to me years ago in the Swiped Signet. I had to fumble my way to the market vendors.

It isn't vital anymore to have the pots though is it? Blindness wears off quickly.

[Paleus]

Happened to me years ago in the Swiped Signet. I had to fumble my way to the market vendors.

It isn't vital anymore to have the pots though is it? Blindness wears off quickly.

Not anymore, but if you've played long enough you can regale the young whippersnappers with stories of when blindness used to be permanent. Or bitterly reminisce about how raid leaders would take some time explaining to new players why curse pots were mandatory for their VoD runs.

Maybe if this game continues for 8 more years we can have people regale new players of a time when evil wooden doors required a shocking 18 str to break through (or an elusive rogue, wizard, piece of gear, AH item, a long list of things really) and they'll marvel at how we ever got past such stark challenges.

[DunkleNymphe]

If I just bought a melee hireling, I would lose my healer. So that's not doable.

I'm not sure where the WoW reference is coming from.

Sorry, but I really don't understand your complaints. Posters here have given you a number of good adv ice. There are several ways to get the door open.
Yet, every time you complain it's no doable.

Players are helpful, the fact fact you don't like their particular solutions, does not change that fact.
The quest IS doable solo,. That you DON'T WANT do it either of these ways is entirely your problem. It makes as much sense as saying "I don't want to do the quest objectives to complete the quest, there must be a different way".

Btw:
My personal opinion is that only a few quests should be completalbe solo. I'd like quests where the only way past a trap is with a rogue. Where the only way to open a secret passage is by using a book requiring a high INT- or WIS-check to read. Where only a char with very high STR can pull a lever. In short: quests that truly require a party. Because that is what MMO's should be about - several people gathering to complete a common goal. Imho there is no other reason for MMO's to exist.

[Miow]

You could also check the AH for this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Necklace_of_Fireballs

[Kylstrem]

Btw:
My personal opinion is that only a few quests should be completalbe solo. I'd like quests where the only way past a trap is with a rogue. Where the only way to open a secret passage is by using a book requiring a high INT- or WIS-check to read. Where only a char with very high STR can pull a lever. In short: quests that truly require a party. Because that is what MMO's should be about - several people gathering to complete a common goal. Imho there is no other reason for MMO's to exist.

That's how the game used to be. And it wouldn't be here now if the changes hadn't been made. Back in the day YOU HAD to have a real cleric in the party (there were no hirelings). Every cleric went anonymous lest they receive about 10 tells immediately when they logged on asking if they wanted to do a certain quest.

You still have VON5 for the quest you want, although the stat requirements were lowered than they what they used to be.

But all-in-all, the game was dying quickly because the game was originally developed to REQUIRE a party.

[Chai]

You've been here 2.5 years... You're not a new player...

It's okay to fail. Learn something and try again.

I remember the first time my character got blinded, and my whole screen went dark (you could still see player's names I think), and I had to recall.. I took me a bit of work to get into the tavern and get healed by the NPC.

I learned to carry remove blindness potions after that...

I remember the first time my party wiped in STK... We learned what NOT to do, went back in, and tried again.

People have given you a ton of good suggestions in this thread... Try the quest again...

...and nowdays that construct in STK is surround and pound, with a DR of 1/lol.

Did peopel really learn from failures, or did they flock to the forums to demand the game be made easier, to the point where elite can be soloed by a first timer who has not prepared for the quest and has no first hand quest knowledge. DDO was already geared enough for soloers by having normal difficulty, but instead they went straight for "must be able to solo elite" and thats what we ended up with, more of the same type of expectation.

[Chai]

That's how the game used to be. And it wouldn't be here now if the changes hadn't been made. Back in the day YOU HAD to have a real cleric in the party (there were no hirelings). Every cleric went anonymous lest they receive about 10 tells immediately when they logged on asking if they wanted to do a certain quest.

You still have VON5 for the quest you want, although the stat requirements were lowered than they what they used to be.

But all-in-all, the game was dying quickly because the game was originally developed to REQUIRE a party.

Not really. DDO as far back as 2006 was geared for soloers, as it had the normal/hard/elite difficulty system. The issue is the soloers would not settle for normal difficulty and insisted that elite be soloable on first time runs. Normal didnt really require a party. Elite did.

[Deadlock]

Not really. DDO as far back as 2006 was geared for soloers, as it had the normal/hard/elite difficulty system. The issue is the soloers would not settle for normal difficulty and insisted that elite be soloable on first time runs. Normal didnt really require a party. Elite did.

To open Elite as a soloer you needed to have completed Normal and Hard so you at least had an idea of the quest before you went in on Elite. Was it enforced repetition? Of course, but you unlocked the next difficulty .... which is fair in my book.

In some ways, the things that have been added like VIP's can go straight on Elite are catering more and more for the veteran player rather than the first timer, and having a knock-on effect on their first-time experience. I like the Bravery Bonus and Bravery Streak, and I've proposed simple ways that it can be changed to help first-timers not being duped into thinking that if you're not doing Elite then you're doing it wrong.

If we want to seriously improve the lot for first-timers then somethings need to be changed. Making things easier to pander to them definitely isn't one of them so I think we're on the same page.

[Gremmlynn]

My personal opinion is that only a few quests should be completalbe solo. I'd like quests where the only way past a trap is with a rogue. Where the only way to open a secret passage is by using a book requiring a high INT- or WIS-check to read. Where only a char with very high STR can pull a lever. In short: quests that truly require a party. Because that is what MMO's should be about - several people gathering to complete a common goal. Imho there is no other reason for MMO's to exist.An MMO like that wouldn't exist for very long. To much doing nothing until the right character mix is found to keep people playing.

Frankly, what you describe is much closer to a LAN hosted game than an MMO. Something you only even consider playing when you already know you have all the bases covered with people committed to playing at and for a given time period. While an MMO can be played in this manner, they are more often played on a come and go as you please basis that is best served by allowing whatever is there to play, than needing specific pieces to do anything.

In other words, I'm sure I'm not alone in not being willing to waste my time even installing an MMO that relies on finding the right mix of character types to even play. Something about being logged in 2 hours a night but only actually playing about 2 hours a week doesn't make it attractive.

[PsychoBlonde]

That's how the game used to be. And it wouldn't be here now if the changes hadn't been made. Back in the day YOU HAD to have a real cleric in the party (there were no hirelings). Every cleric went anonymous lest they receive about 10 tells immediately when they logged on asking if they wanted to do a certain quest.

You still have VON5 for the quest you want, although the stat requirements were lowered than they what they used to be.

But all-in-all, the game was dying quickly because the game was originally developed to REQUIRE a party.

If it was more like a trinity-style MMO where nearly every class is able to fill nearly every role depending on how you spec them (and you can even have dual specs), then yeah, it'd make sense. But in a game with 12 classes and multi-classing and something like 10 different overlapping roles and the fact that many aspects of your party role depend on you amassing a lot of skill and gear over time . . . yeah, demanding that you have specific stuff available in party in order to complete a quest is a very good way to ensure that quest doesn't get run.

I think that the direction they've taken of "you can complete the quest with pretty much any party if you know what you're doing but some optionals still require specific stuff" is a good way to do it. That means there are benefits to having different people around but you can still at least DO IT without waiting and begging for someone to come open the door for you.

[Rykka]

Not really. DDO as far back as 2006 was geared for soloers, as it had the normal/hard/elite difficulty system. The issue is the soloers would not settle for normal difficulty and insisted that elite be soloable on first time runs. Normal didnt really require a party. Elite did.

As long as Eilte runs offer superior rewards, some people will complain if they can't complete them. As long as there is a more difficult setting, some people will complain if they aren't given superior rewards. The entitlement train runs in a circle.

Though to be honest most of the people i see running Heroic these days just seem to be doing favor dashes or zerging out yet another XP/min life for Epic. They've pretty much had every rare bit of stuff in the game for several years and seem barely conscious while they play.

[Kylstrem]

Not really. DDO as far back as 2006 was geared for soloers, as it had the normal/hard/elite difficulty system. The issue is the soloers would not settle for normal difficulty and insisted that elite be soloable on first time runs. Normal didnt really require a party. Elite did.


No, really. I've been here since beta. You did NOT solo anything on Normal when the game first came out (except maybe the first 4 quests that are now in Korthos) heck, if you were a Bard, Rogue, Wizard, or Sorc, there was a good chance you would not be able to complete the first quest you had to do to get out of the tavern that was where the entrance to Mindsunder now is.


Normal then was about what elite is today. There were no hirelings. There was no alternate healing as there is today.

If you got Held or tripped or stunned or stuck in a web, ON NORMAL, you were dead. You didn't save out of those within the first 1-2 seconds. You died. And if didn't die near a Res shrine, you had to release and take the XP penalty. And if you did die near a res shrine, but you had already used it once, you were done. Release and take the XP penalty. No res cakes. No using a res shrine multiple times, even after 15 minutes on Normal.

A Ranger had a good chance to solo some things (if you had Shot on the Run, because back then you couldn't move and shoot a bow at the same time unless you had Shot on the Run) because you could self-heal with Wands while ranging things. Paladins could also use Wands, but they had to get close to things to kill them... essentially they'd have to heal themselves constantly.

It's hilarious that you actually try to speak about this with authority and then say something that could not be more wrong than what you said.

If we had the forums going back to 2006, you'd see bragging threads where people would brag about soloing quests, and people would congratulate them on the accomplishment.

Again, Normal of 2006 is not the Normal of 2014. Normal is a complete joke today... not even sure why they have Casual.

[Kylstrem]

Oh, and here's how fast Turbine started responding to "Quest is too hard, can't complete it because it requires X attribute to get past certain parts"

Module 2, Release Date, July 12th, 2006 (about 5 months after initial release):

The Ability score DCs required to complete certain objectives in Caverns of Korromar have been removed. Characters of all classes are able to complete the main objective.

Jungle of Khyber
The requirement for the intelligence runes leading to the beholder area has been lowered from 16 to 14.

Vault of Night
Runes in the command entry hallway now require 20 wisdom instead of 25 intelligence.

And in October of 2006, the devs relented and added a Solo mode to a bunch of quests to attempt to solve the great cry they were hearing on the forums of "This game is too hard and is not SOLO-friendly" by doing the following:

New Solo Quests!

We are spreading the Solo gaming experience in Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach even further! Several quests in the Stormreach Market and House Deneith can now be completed in solo mode. These quests are:

Redfang the Unruled
The Foul Chambers
The Sunken Sewers
The Deneith Sewers:
The Depths of Despair
The Depths of Darkness
The Depths of Discord
The Depths of Doom



And to help keep a trip from being a death sentence to players, they did the following:

All enemy trips and knockdowns now have dual saves (an initial save and a secondary save). Most give you an ability modifier check for the initial save to determine whether or not you fall. This will be your Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever is greater on your character. Some knockdowns like grease give a reflex save as the initial save. Once you fall down, your secondary save checks will occur every two seconds and are versus your balance skill to determine when you stand back up.

[Tscheuss]

Oh, and here's how fast Turbine started responding to "Quest is too hard, can't complete it because it requires X attribute to get past certain parts"

Module 2, Release Date, July 12th, 2006 (about 5 months after initial release):

The Ability score DCs required to complete certain objectives in Caverns of Korromar have been removed. Characters of all classes are able to complete the main objective.

Jungle of Khyber
The requirement for the intelligence runes leading to the beholder area has been lowered from 16 to 14.

Vault of Night
Runes in the command entry hallway now require 20 wisdom instead of 25 intelligence.

And in October of 2006, the devs relented and added a Solo mode to a bunch of quests to attempt to solve the great cry they were hearing on the forums of "This game is too hard and is not SOLO-friendly" by doing the following:

New Solo Quests!

We are spreading the Solo gaming experience in Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach even further! Several quests in the Stormreach Market and House Deneith can now be completed in solo mode. These quests are:

Redfang the Unruled
The Foul Chambers
The Sunken Sewers
The Deneith Sewers:
The Depths of Despair
The Depths of Darkness
The Depths of Discord
The Depths of Doom



And to help keep a trip from being a death sentence to players, they did the following:

All enemy trips and knockdowns now have dual saves (an initial save and a secondary save). Most give you an ability modifier check for the initial save to determine whether or not you fall. This will be your Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever is greater on your character. Some knockdowns like grease give a reflex save as the initial save. Once you fall down, your secondary save checks will occur every two seconds and are versus your balance skill to determine when you stand back up.

Could it be that Chai was referring to late 2006? Then you both might be right. :)

[Chai]

No, really. I've been here since beta. You did NOT solo anything on Normal when the game first came out (except maybe the first 4 quests that are now in Korthos) heck, if you were a Bard, Rogue, Wizard, or Sorc, there was a good chance you would not be able to complete the first quest you had to do to get out of the tavern that was where the entrance to Mindsunder now is.

Normal then was about what elite is today. There were no hirelings. There was no alternate healing as there is today.

People could solo normal. It was done quite a bit. People could buy potions, and endless firewall scrolls. "bring pots" in 2006 was the byoh of today.


If you got Held or tripped or stunned or stuck in a web, ON NORMAL, you were dead. You didn't save out of those within the first 1-2 seconds. You died. And if didn't die near a Res shrine, you had to release and take the XP penalty. And if you did die near a res shrine, but you had already used it once, you were done. Release and take the XP penalty. No res cakes. No using a res shrine multiple times, even after 15 minutes on Normal.

Yeap, but the other thing youre not mentioning here is people who did solo were not worried about the time factor like they are today. They didnt just run forward and swing their weapon til they got to the end of the quest like they do nowdays. They used tactics to pull and kill mobs 1-2 at a time. Soloing was possible and was done often enough on normal and even hard.


It's hilarious that you actually try to speak about this with authority and then say something that could not be more wrong than what you said.

Your claims that people didnt solo on normal are false. It was done quite a bit. It wasnt the "run as fast as you can to get to the end of the quest as quickly as possible" technique like we see today, but people skillfully played the game and soloed.


If we had the forums going back to 2006, you'd see bragging threads where people would brag about soloing quests, and people would congratulate them on the accomplishment.

We do have access to those back to 2007 in the cap 12 and 14 days. https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/154-Achievements/page81

Looks like some people were soloing ELITE in 2007. You say they werent soloing normal in 2006?


Again, Normal of 2006 is not the Normal of 2014. Normal is a complete joke today... not even sure why they have Casual.

Well, at least we agree on something. And what I have outlined is why. WHen people lobby to make elite soloable on first time play throughs, all other difficulties become a joke.

EDIT: a simple youtube search finds an ELITE completion from 2006. Youre claiming people didnt solo normal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSBVeG2A1e4

Heres one on 4/18/06, CO6 elite solo (parts 1 and 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDC4iqHpPPM

Stormcleave solo on hard 4-22-06: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRb9gZ-ZdRU

[Jeremiah179]

A. Everyone basically fell for troll bait... except Thrudh. 2.5 years... just got around the issue? ( I was saying that all the way through page 1 and 2 !!!)

B. There are a lot of roadblocks in the game, NONE are insurmountable as far as I know. Some are fairly hard if you insist solo no hireling... but there you are already being silly.

C. The idea that turbine does not have these roadblocks anymore is not true. Go into Haunted Halls with 10 Strength and no Trapping and you may not leave the entryway...
c1. It may be true that they avoid it in general, but that is not what is being said.

D. Troll...

E. I cant believe I read all the way through, like being addicted to DDO soap opera with many of the standard characters involved...lol sheesh!

F. EDIT -- we need some meaner forum personalities again... I miss the troll... he would not of accepted this attempt and would of offered his online course to this fellow...

[Qhualor]

heh old skool UI. I don't miss them.

good educational videos of why changes were made.

even in 2009-10 the pull 1-2 mobs and bottleneck mobs tactics were still widely used and soloing normal was still considered a tough challenge. maybe not so much for those veteran players who had been playing since the beginning, but they knew the better tactics and patience that were passed down to us Frewbs. I still think those days of a good chance to wipe in any quest even on normal are better than today where its expected to beat every quest on elite or its considered a waste of our time.

[Kylstrem]

Nice Chai... Way to take a statement as literal to attempt to make it sound like you had no idea what you were talking about.

You specifically said

"DDO as far back as 2006 was geared for soloers, as it had the normal/hard/elite difficulty system.
That statement is wrong. "Geared for soloers" would mean to any intelligent person that Turbine designed the game so people could solo it. And that was not the case when it came out. The freakin' producer/designer claimed over and over. "This game is designed for grouping. It should require a diverse party with different classes and skills".
He stuck to his guns until they showed him the door and were finally able to ease some of his "You must play the game like I want you to play it" edicts.
(Trust me, I know first hand from one of the original devs how he would not bend to any attempts to make the game little less unforgiving for people who wanted to solo). And the game suffered mightily for it, in terms of subscriptions.

When I said that "people were not running solo when the game out", it obviously didn't mean "Zero people were soloing".

But the majority of people were not soloing, or at least not soloing successfully (thus leading to the game being a somewhat failure from the beginning).

Soloing Normal was very difficult. Only certain classes really had somewhat of a chance of doing it, and only if they really went slow and spent lots of resources.

And when the game came out, no one had millions of plat to buy wands and potions. There was no AH to buy certain items or to make money fast.

Sure, there were people who managed to solo quests, even on elite. But those were exceptions. The game was NOT GEARED to soloers because of the N/H/E system. Everyone had to do Normal to start back then. You couldn't do H, until you completed the quest on Normal first. Groups weren't starting on elite. Elite usually meant a wipe for a pug that came together with a cleric who didn't know what they were doing, or just one person who didn't know what they were doing because that person aggro something accidentally in Durks.

Hell, you'd get cursed or blinded by a kobold Shaman in Elite Durk's or Elite WW, and your cleric wasn't high enough level yet to cast remove blindness or Remove Curse, and you couldn't afford more than 1 or 2 Remove blindness/remove curse potions at the time.

Don't try to change the argument by proving "Well 5% of the population was able to solo the quests when the game out, therefore I'm right... the game was geared towards soloers". The game definitely was NOT GEARED towards soloers, and that statement is wrong.

[Chai]

Nice Chai... Way to take a statement as literal to attempt to make it sound like you had no idea what you were talking about.

You specifically said

That statement is wrong. "Geared for soloers" would mean to any intelligent person that Turbine designed the game so people could solo it. And that was not the case when it came out. The freakin' producer/designer claimed over and over. "This game is designed for grouping. It should require a diverse party with different classes and skills".

Youre claims about how it was in 2006 have been refuted. There were people soloing normal, and the game was geared for it. People just couldnt run forward and swing their weapon and expect victory like they can today. Soloing then wasnt a no fail experience, but soloing was part of the game. It was the case when it came out.

Did you even watch the videos I linked that quite literally refute your claim that no one was soloing in 2006?


Sure, there were people who managed to solo quests, even on elite. But those were exceptions. .

Now youre attempting to move the goal posts. Your first claim of people couldnt even solo normal was proven wrong so now you have to change the parameters of your claim. Your claim was people couldnt even solo normal. I showed you people soloing elite. No sir, the goal posts will remain in the same place.


The game was NOT GEARED to soloers because of the N/H/E system.

False. Normal difficulty was good for soloing. It was still a challenge, but people did it regularly.


Everyone had to do Normal to start back then. .

False. We could group with someone who had elite unlocked and do it once on elite without ever having to touch normal or hard.

Every one of your claims about how it was back then have now been debunked. If you attempt to move the goal posts further, ima continue to pull your card on it.


The game definitely was NOT GEARED towards soloers, and that statement is wrong.

False. Normal difficulty was soloable. Here you attempt to move the goal posts again by going from "no one was soloing even on normal" to "not geared for soloing".

The reality of the situation in that era is those advocating soloing would not settle for normal difficulty being the solo difficulty and cried doom that the game would die if the entirety of the game on all difficulties wasnt geared for soloing. Eventually this lead to what we have today in heroics, eroded difficulty with scaling on top of that which makes most quests soloable on elite by most people, making it too easy on hard or normal, which people only run to farm first time completions on those difficulties. Yeah, they have to keep someting around for first timers who trickle in from time to time.

[Pandir]

False. Normal difficulty was soloable.
The issue with all the complaining is those advocating soloing would not settle for normal difficulty being the solo difficulty and cried doom that the game would die if the entirety of the game on all difficulties wasnt geared for soloing. Eventually this lead to what we have today in heroics, eroded difficulty with scaling on top of that which makes most quests soloable on elite.

I obviously haven't played DDO back then but i remember it had a reputation of being close to impossible to solo in.
So whats your definition of geared for solo ? Is EE today geared for solo ? Cause i would consider it soloable but not geared for solo. Geared for solo means basically everyone everywhere with any class can do it with little to no hiccup, say landscape quests in WoW or normal now in DDO.

If normal back then was soloable that would mean that only some people could do it, and alot of people wouldn't bother. That's obviously a problem for a game having close to no fallback content if you don't want to or can't find a group (again like landscape quests in Wow).
I know this was basically Industry standard before WoW (Say in EQ or Daoc) but it doesn't fly today anymore and didn't fly at any point past WoW unless you really only want to stay in a very small niche (pathfinder MMO)

[Chai]

I obviously haven't played DDO back then but i remember it had a reputation of being close to impossible to solo in.
So whats your definition of geared for solo ? Is EE today geared for solo ? Cause i would consider it soloable but not geared for solo. Geared for solo means basically everyone everywhere with any class can do it with little to no hiccup, say landscape quests in WoW or normal now in DDO.

Thank you for reinforcing what Ive been stating the entire time. You went straight to EE without mentioning EH or EN. The myth on these forums, is that elite is the measuring stick. Even if you only did this subcounciously, it still shows what I have been outlining. People are not willing to settle for normal as the solo difficulty.

I would consider epic normal currently geared for soloing, in epic levels currently, even by someone who has not earned alot of named gear in heroics.


If normal back then was soloable that would mean that only some people could do it, and alot of people wouldn't bother. That's obviously a problem for a game having close to no fallback content if you don't want to or can't find a group (again like landscape quests in Wow).

No, people could do it, as outlined by most of the accomplishments being posted being hard or elite. People were not willing to settle for normal as the solo difficulty with hard and elite being for groups. THey advocated for elite to be soloable, and some even advocated for it to be soloable without having to prepare - which defeated the entire purpose of a N/H/E system.


I know this was basically Industry standard before WoW (Say in EQ or Daoc) but it doesn't fly today anymore and didn't fly at any point past WoW unless you really only want to stay in a very small niche (pathfinder MMO)

Once the entitlement based gaming bottoms out, we will see a rebound of forced cooperation. It may not hit the extreme like EQ where it took the entire party to kill one mob, but it will rebound a bit, as people realize the decree of "everything must be solo-able" to be absurd. Until then, we got games where we can kill groups of mobs at run speed without even looking back or stopping.

[Pandir]

Thank you for reinforcing what Ive been stating the entire time. You went straight to EE without mentioning EH or EN. The myth on these forums, is that elite is the measuring stick. Even if you only did this subcounciously, it still shows what I have been outlining. People are not willing to settle for normal as the solo difficulty.

I would consider epic normal currently geared for soloing, in epic levels currently, even by someone who has not earned alot of named gear in heroics.



No, people could do it, as outlined by most of the accomplishments being posted being hard or elite. People were not willing to settle for normal as the solo difficulty with hard and elite being for groups. THey advocated for elite to be soloable, and some even advocated for it to be soloable without having to prepare - which defeated the entire purpose of a N/H/E system.



Once the entitlement based gaming bottoms out, we will see a rebound of forced cooperation. It may not hit the extreme like EQ where it took the entire party to kill one mob, but it will rebound a bit, as people realize the decree of "everything must be solo-able" to be absurd. Until then, we got games where we can kill groups of mobs at run speed without even looking back or stopping.

I think you misunderstand me I did go to EE especially because it's my definition of soloable, it's doable but for the most part not easy and most people will not solo most quests on EE at any point.
Geared for solo would be normal as it is really easy for everyone, EH would be in between with more leaning towards geared for solo. All are equally geared for group play too though.
It was for definition of solo back then, if it was soloable like EE is today than it's pretty clear why the game was considered close to impossible to solo, if normal was close to like today yes it was geared for solo.
Basically you need fallback content that everyone and their mom can solo if no groups are around.

I would be one enjoying hard and elite being soloable. As said a few times before DDO is a solo D&D game with nice persistant characer progression for me.
If you make Hard and Elite unsoloable through mechanics or tuning it would basically lock me out of 33 - 66% of content, it's very probable I'd just quit.
Not that i mind that too much it's just a game, but i obviously I oppose a change that makes me quit.
(For the record i came here after U14 when the game was made accessible for solo play precisely because I heard it now was)

I doubt there will be a rebound the market has changed dramatically, it's more likely there will be less and less MMOrpgs. Keep in mind that Everquest and Daoc would be very niche by todays standard (Of course DDO is too :P).
Fits my current playstyle pretty well but I'm basically fading out of the MMO market anyways I just log in to WOW once in a while for friends, and play DDO as fun solo game.

[Chai]

Geared for solo would be normal as it is really easy for everyone,

No, thats the myth perpetuated but its not true. Geared for solo =/= success rate 100% easy for everyone. Geared for soloing does not mean someone has to be able to complete with no effort, preparation, or skillful play. It means this can be soloed, with some effort put in. People were able to do this at launch by using choke points, corners, and playing strategically.


It was for definition of solo back then, if it was soloable like EE is today than it's pretty clear why the game was considered close to impossible to solo, if normal was close to like today yes it was geared for solo.
Basically you need fallback content that everyone and their mom can solo if no groups are around.

There was alot of hyperbole on the forums back then about game not being soloable, because people wanted it to be like it is now, where you can just run through, kill at max running speed without slowing down. Normal was the fallback difficulty. People would not accept normal as the solo difficulty however, and cried doom and threatened to leave the game is elite wasnt soloable.


I would be one enjoying hard and elite being soloable. As said a few times before DDO is a solo D&D game with nice persistant characer progression for me.
If you make Hard and Elite unsoloable through mechanics or tuning it would basically lock me out of 33 - 66% of content, it's very probable I'd just quit.
Not that i mind that too much it's just a game, but i obviously I oppose a change that makes me quit.

The opposite is also true, if you make elite soloable and easy, it becomes boring for people who were already soloing elite. By retaining you, the game lost top end players. This is why people needed to leave the N/H/E system alone, and accept N as the solo difficulty, H as the shortman difficulty and E as the full group and forced cooperation difficulty. Players outline that if the game isnt soloable the solo players leave, but they fail to mention that making the hardest difficulties soloable makes the game boring for those who were already doing those toughest difficulties. If you absolutely will not group and only will solo, that is a playstyle choice you are making. Being "locked out of" 66% of the content is a choice made by the player due to lack of willingness to group with other players. The game isnt the roadblock in that situation, the player is. They are limiting themselves by choosing to never group with other players in an MMO. The company can choose to value those players by giving them a setting to play on, but doing so at the expense of being able to retain other types of players is counterproductive.


I doubt there will be a rebound the market has changed dramatically, it's more likely there will be less and less MMOrpgs. Keep in mind that Everquest and Daoc would be very niche by todays standard (Of course DDO is too :P).
Fits my current playstyle pretty well but I'm basically fading out of the MMO market anyways I just log in to WOW once in a while for friends, and play DDO as fun solo game.

EQ still has more players than DDO - today.

There will be a rebound, as soon as companies realize that by making the entire game easy peasy for casual players, they are making it boring for top end players. It wont rebound all the way back to the EQ extreme where the entire party is needed to kill one mob, but there will be a rebound. Having a core group of top end players contributes alot more to the success of the game. These are the folks who write the quest/raid strategies, create game playing guides, builds that work in more difficult content, maps for explorers and quest zones, etc. Sooner or later, companies will realize keeping these people around is good for the financial success of a game. Catering entirely to the soloers while losing the top end gamers does not.

[Chai]

I think some folks when considering "soloability" mistake difficulty with forgiving.

DDO on normal difficulty in 2006 was not difficult. Some things were unforgiving. Examples Kylstrem outlined like being tripped or held usually meaning being killed could be avoided, but if it happened even once, it was unforgiving.

This video iterates the difference between difficulty and punishing pretty well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

He also debunks the myth that character death equates to difficulty.

[Pandir]

No, thats the myth perpetuated but its not true. Geared for solo =/= success rate 100% easy for everyone. Geared for soloing does not mean someone has to be able to complete with no effort, preparation, or skillful play. It means this can be soloed, with some effort put in. People were able to do this at launch by using choke points, corners, and playing strategically.

There was alot of hyperbole on the forums back then about game not being soloable, because people wanted it to be like it is now, where you can just run through, kill at max running speed without slowing down. Normal was the fallback difficulty. People would not accept normal as the solo difficulty however, and cried doom and threatened to leave the game is elite wasnt soloable.


I think we have a different definition of what is geared for solo and soloable. If the only possibility of soloing is hard and there is no easy alternative except for grouping, people will see the game as nearly unsoloable.
In that case the reputation was deserved.




The opposite is also true, if you make elite soloable and easy, it becomes boring for people who were already soloing elite. By retaining you, the game lost top end players. This is why people needed to leave the N/H/E system alone, and accept N as the solo difficulty, H as the shortman difficulty and E as the full group and forced cooperation difficulty. Players outline that if the game isnt soloable the solo players leave, but they fail to mention that making the hardest difficulties soloable makes the game boring for those who were already doing those toughest difficulties. If you absolutely will not group and only will solo, that is a playstyle choice you are making. Being "locked out of" 66% of the content is a choice made by the player due to lack of willingness to group with other players. The game isnt the roadblock in that situation, the player is. They are limiting themselves by choosing to never group with other players in an MMO. The company can choose to value those players by giving them a setting to play on, but doing so at the expense of being able to retain other types of players is counterproductive.


Frankly i don't care deciding who to retain and who not to is Turbines job not mine. Of course it's my decision to only limit myself solo i don't enjoy grouping anymore why would I.
No one is forcing you to solo either in this game, if you simply take out scaling as often suggested it wouldn't make things a slide harder for grouping anyways, it would just make short manning harder.
I'm still obviously gonna oppose any change that that would basically kill the game for me. If they implement it fine I'll leave no sweat but I'd prefer not to.
Much like the people wanting the forced grouping back.
You'll notice though that I'm fine with changes to encourage grouping that don't flat out kill my play style.



EQ still has more players than DDO - today.


I'd like to see some numbers on that.



There will be a rebound, as soon as companies realize that by making the entire game easy peasy for casual players, they are making it boring for top end players. It wont rebound all the way back to the EQ extreme where the entire party is needed to kill one mob, but there will be a rebound. Having a core group of top end players contributes alot more to the success of the game. These are the folks who write the quest/raid strategies, create game playing guides, builds that work in more difficult content, maps for explorers and quest zones, etc. Sooner or later, companies will realize keeping these people around is good for the financial success of a game. Catering entirely to the soloers while losing the top end gamers does not.


Doubt it ,the way the industry is going that seems unlikely except as said on games specially aiming to do so. But never say never, I expect to not be playing any MMO anymore long before any such change though.

[cdbd3rd]

Not anymore, but if you've played long enough you can regale the young whippersnappers with stories of when blindness used to be permanent.....


Oh, yesss...

When all the worlds were fresh and new - and no cleric existed yet that could cure it even if they wanted to. :)


https://emptystress.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/thread-derailed-o.gif?w=440




Begs the question - can you derail something that has no rails? :confused:

[Chai]

Frankly i don't care deciding who to retain and who not to is Turbines job not mine. Of course it's my decision to only limit myself solo i don't enjoy grouping anymore why would I.
No one is forcing you to solo either in this game, if you simply take out scaling as often suggested it wouldn't make things a slide harder for grouping anyways, it would just make short manning harder.
I'm still obviously gonna oppose any change that that would basically kill the game for me. If they implement it fine I'll leave no sweat but I'd prefer not to.
Much like the people wanting the forced grouping back.
You'll notice though that I'm fine with changes to encourage grouping that don't flat out kill my play style.

Retaining you and others with your chosen playstyle, at the expense of those who like to group, will also kill the game for you in a situation where catering to one group while not caring about another challenges the financial viability of the game itself. You should then oppose changes that make the top end gamers attrite in order to cater to those who choose to solo and will not group. Or, accept normal as the solo difficulty and let those who like to group have hard and elite.

Unless of course you feel that Turbine can keep this game around by monetizing one playstyle and not the others.



Doubt it ,the way the industry is going that seems unlikely except as said on games specially aiming to do so. But never say never, I expect to not be playing any MMO anymore long before any such change though.

That rebound is already happening. the industry is learning the difference between difficult and unforgiving. Games that are challenging are coming out, which are more forgiving.

[Kylstrem]

Youre claims about how it was in 2006 have been refuted. There were people soloing normal, and the game was geared for it. People just couldnt run forward and swing their weapon and expect victory like they can today. Soloing then wasnt a no fail experience, but soloing was part of the game. It was the case when it came out.

Did you even watch the videos I linked that quite literally refute your claim that no one was soloing in 2006?



Now youre attempting to move the goal posts. Your first claim of people couldnt even solo normal was proven wrong so now you have to change the parameters of your claim. Your claim was people couldnt even solo normal. I showed you people soloing elite. No sir, the goal posts will remain in the same place.

No, you moved the goal posts by taking a literal interpretation of my statement that "people were not soloing normal" to mean "Not a single person could solo normal when it came out". Twisting the meaning of my post so you "can be right" does not make you right.

The game, for the majority of players was not soloable. And it definitely was not geared towards soloing. "Geared towards soloing" would mean the designers wanted people to solo quests. This was not the case. And you posting a couple of Youtube videos of people doing that does not reinforce your argument. That's a few examples of anecdotal evidence.

I can post some videos of people soloing VoD on Elite (back when level cap was 20). I supposed I could say VoD Elite was geared for solo play using your logic.





Every one of your claims about how it was back then have now been debunked. If you attempt to move the goal posts further, ima continue to pull your card on it.


You are freakin' hilarious. You can't just say False... Ha ha debunked because I said so. You continue to double-down on being wrong, and then trying to prove being right by providing only anecdotal evidence.







eroded difficulty with scaling on top of that which makes most quests soloable on elite by most people.

False... there is no scaling on Elite difficulty. Same difficulty.... same number of mobs whether you have 1 person in quest or six.


You are the only one moving goal posts. the original as released in 2006 was in no way "geared towards solo" play. You can keep saying "yes it was, you are moving goal posts, but I posted a couple videos to show that some people were very good at it".

"Geared towards solo" would mean to any sensible person that anyone with any class would have a very good chance of soloing every quest in the game.

And you have not proven that by a long shot.

But I know you can't admit being mistaken, so I expect a further response from you, probably containing the word "False" several times with quoted text.

[Chai]

No, you moved the goal posts by taking a literal interpretation of my statement that "people were not soloing normal" to mean "Not a single person could solo normal when it came out". Twisting the meaning of my post so you "can be right" does not make you right.

The game, for the majority of players was not soloable. And it definitely was not geared towards soloing. "Geared towards soloing" would mean the designers wanted people to solo quests. This was not the case. And you posting a couple of Youtube videos of people doing that does not reinforce your argument. That's a few examples of anecdotal evidence.

I can post some videos of people soloing VoD on Elite (back when level cap was 20). I supposed I could say VoD Elite was geared for solo play using your logic.





You are freakin' hilarious. You can't just say False... Ha ha debunked because I said so. You continue to double-down on being wrong, and then trying to prove being right by providing only anecdotal evidence.







False... there is no scaling on Elite difficulty. Same difficulty.... same number of mobs whether you have 1 person in quest or six.


You are the only one moving goal posts. the original as released in 2006 was in no way "geared towards solo" play. You can keep saying "yes it was, you are moving goal posts, but I posted a couple videos to show that some people were very good at it".

"Geared towards solo" would mean to any sensible person that anyone with any class would have a very good chance of soloing every quest in the game.

And you have not proven that by a long shot.

But I know you can't admit being mistaken, so I expect a further response from you, probably containing the word "False" several times with quoted text .

I showed you my evidence, proving your initial claim false. I did not move any goal posts. You did after being proven incorrect. You attempted to dismiss the videos as a small percentage of folks who could do it. You claimed it was not done, then when shown it was done, moved the goal posts.

Now show me yours supporting evidence.


the original as released in 2006 was in no way "geared towards solo" play.

You are again mistaking difficulty with unforgiving, as I also previously outlined.


You are freakin' hilarious. You can't just say False... Ha ha debunked because I said so. You continue to double-down on being wrong, and then trying to prove being right by providing only anecdotal evidence.

You claimed the game wasnt soloable when it first came out. I provided videos of people soloing DDO in april of 2006. Thats not anecdotal evidence. Its factual evidence.

Your initial claim is debunked and proven false.

[Pandir]

Retaining you and others with your chosen playstyle, at the expense of those who like to group, will also kill the game for you in a situation where catering to one group while not caring about another challenges the financial viability of the game itself. You should then oppose changes that make the top end gamers attrite in order to cater to those who choose to solo and will not group. Or, accept normal as the solo difficulty and let those who like to group have hard and elite.

Unless of course you feel that Turbine can keep this game around by monetizing one playstyle and not the others.

The premise is simply fun if I'm not having fun I'll simply move on, of course while I'm having fun I'll throw quite some money at Turbine.
I'm not opposed to making EE or even EH harder I'm only opposed to removing the ability to solo or forcing grouping. One doesn't require the other.
Don't pretend this is about the welfare of the game it's simply that you'd like your Play Style incentived more or even maybe forced on others.
There is nothing preventing you from grouping.
But hey if the only way to retain those players is too make the game less fun for me, let's say i have nothing to lose, so I'll take my changes.



That rebound is already happening. the industry is learning the difference between difficult and unforgiving. Games that are challenging are coming out, which are more forgiving.


Name some.

The dark souls series isn't exactly forgiving. What else is there ?

[Kylstrem]

Chai, just answer one question.

Were you playing the game in Feb 2006?


Your forum join date shows 2008... I know some people didn't join immediately. However, I can't believe you would have waited two years to start posting on here based on your current post count.

Your arguments on this topic definitely sound like someone who did not experience the game in that first year. Most likely why you are relying on other people's experiences (Youtube videos) instead of your own actual experiences.

[Chai]

Chai, just answer one question.

Were you playing the game in Feb 2006?


Your forum join date shows 2008... I know some people didn't join immediately. However, I can't believe you would have waited two years to start posting on here based on your current post count.

Your arguments on this topic definitely sound like someone who did not experience the game in that first year. Most likely why you are relying on other people's experiences (Youtube videos) instead of your own actual experiences.

Yes. I played in feb - dec of 2006.

Please watch the youtube videos of people soloing DDO in 2006. They directly refute your claim that no one was doing so.

SInce you have nothing that refutes the evidence I provided, youre now attempting to discredit by asserting I didnt play back then using forum join date and post count?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gremmlynn]

Once the entitlement based gaming bottoms out, we will see a rebound of forced cooperation. It may not hit the extreme like EQ where it took the entire party to kill one mob, but it will rebound a bit, as people realize the decree of "everything must be solo-able" to be absurd. Until then, we got games where we can kill groups of mobs at run speed without even looking back or stopping.I don't see this happening to any great extent. It simply doesn't make sense to try to get people to pay you for the right to do nothing until other decide to join you, or to do what others want to do. Not in a world where every room in the house has a TV that allows us each to watch what we want and only watch together when it suits us. Compromise simply can't compete with having it your way.

[Thrudh]

And it definitely was not geared towards soloing. "Geared towards soloing" would mean the designers wanted people to solo quests. This was not the case.

Chai, he's right about this. Admit your phrase was somewhat inaccurate just this one time.

The game was not "geared towards soloing" in 2006.

[Hafeal]

There were people soloing normal, and the game was geared for it.

I poke fun at Thrudh, but he is right on this Chai:


Chai, he's right about this. Admit your phrase was somewhat inaccurate just this one time.

The game was not "geared towards soloing" in 2006.

Absolutely, the game was not geared toward the masses doing solo play, I would assert, until the intro of hirelings, except for the elite players with access to a nice page of Raid gear, plat for pots.