What is a workable DC? (Fort)

[Maelodic]

Hey-o,

I've been able to do some maths in regards to getting DC up on the upcoming Spellsinger without any caster lives and one feat invested into DCs so the rest can be metas and melee feats- so far I've been able to determine that I can get the DCs up to what I presume is respectable levels as long as I run in Exalted Angel. I'm planning on using Nether Orb to bolster my horribly bad spell pool. I'd use feywild tap too but APs and Feats are already tight enough that Human is really my only option.

None of these spells require bypassing spell resistance so I've dodged that bullet.

The spells I'd be using specifically looking to get beyond DC and what I've been able to calculate the DC of are:
DI Energy Burst (Reflex) : 61
EA Soundburst (Fort) : 65
EA Sunbolt (Reflex) : 65
EA Divine Wrath (Will) : 65
BD Soundburst (Fort) : 62
BD Greater Shout (Fort) : 62
BD Shout SLA (Fort) : 62

Assuming that Transcendental Magic does not work with epic spell casting. The CC aspect of most of these spells are more important than the damage though on some of them I'm assuming damage will get pretty decent.

I understand that Fort and Will saves are easier to have enemies not make saves on than Reflex- will these save values hold up in epic elites? I'm worried about Energy Burst- I'm not sure if that's worth the work to get it twisted in if it's not going to be useful or reliable.

I've never played a caster in epic levels, so I'm not horribly sure of what can expect. As far as I know, I'm missing 3 DCs from Sorc Past Life, 1 from Wizard Past Life Feat, 2 from other Spell Focus feats, and probably 5 more from going crazy on CHA. I don't find that horrible considering the lack of investment I'm putting into DCs.

Maths (Please let me know if I'm missing anything):

CHA: 56 (+27)
18 Base
7 Levels
1 Swashbuckler
1 Spellsinger
2 Exalted
2 Exalted (Enhancements)
10 Item
2 Insight
1 Exceptional
6 Tome
2 Inspire Excellence
4 Capstone

Evocation DC: 62
10 Base
6 Heighten
5 Evocation Bonus (Equipment)
27 Charisma
5 Spellsinger (1 Marigold, 4 Cores)
1 Spell Focus: Evocation
1 Profane (Shadowscale Armor)
3 Spell Mastery (Twist from Magister)
3 Transcendental Magic
1 Spellsong Trance

Epic Spell Casting (EA): 65
10 Base
28 Levels
27 Charisma

Epic Spell Casting (Energy Burst): 61
20 Base
14 Levels
27 Charisma

EDIT:
For those wondering- the total spell point pool of such a build would be 2242


525 Base
783 CHA 27
300 Exalted
250 Augment
100 Spellsinger
80 Magical Training
2242 10% EA

[Blackheartox]

Soundburst is subject to spell resistance, you can craft a t2 thforged for 6 dc, easier to get then nether orb

[Lifespawn]

fwiw 56 cha is not a +27 mod it's 23 loss of 4 dc

[Wipey]

It's actually much easier to target Will or Reflex than Fort.
55 Earthquake or Comet or 60 Disco will work where 70 or 75 Soundburst does nothing.
Something like 65 Soundburst is so-so, it's really hard to pull off Fort based cc while 60 disco will work everywhere, 65 - and you can go afk :D
SLA Soundburst is really cheap ( unlike Heightened and Quickened spell version ), so spammable, I bet new bard can get 65 or better Mass Hold SLA.
I would build for 60 or better Enchant first + high Charisma ( you have LOT of improvement possible, maybe not feats but certainly for higher Charisma ) and then heavy use of Soundburst and Mass Hold SLA ( with Divine Wrath maybe ).
Don't forget non metaed Hypno or new insults from Swashbuckler for cheap debuffs. Otto Irresistible the stragglers or orange named.
Frozen Fury changes will make it GODLY if you will have spare points and can fit stun gear.

Also epic SLAs are not affected by Spell focus feats, items, past lives and such.
You are missing augments in your math, those stack too.

Some breakdowns by Resident Palemaster here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444351-DC-Based-Casters-bards-and-sorcs/page2, might be useful.

[CThruTheEgo]

As Wipey said, will is generally the lowest of mob saves, with reflex being the second, and fort is usually stupidly high. That is of course dependent on mob type (casters have lower fort and higher will, archers have higher reflex, melee have higher fort and lower will).

Energy burst is worth it even if mobs are going to save against it. Being able to do at least a couple thousand damage to all mobs around you (especially if they're all gathered up and CC'ed) is well worth the twist slot imo.

From my experience playing my 71 DC assassin (fort based DC), it will work on nearly everything before EE Stormhorns. In EE Stormhorns, it will work against caster type mobs nearly 100%, against archers around 50-60%, and against melee about 25%. If you get your DCs up to the numbers you have listed, it won't be until EE Stormhorns when you will really need to start being smarter about what save type you use against which mob.

[Maelodic]

Thanks for the help guys. Considering EE mobs have like 3000 CON I'm not surprised the fort is higher.

If I go more Enchant based what will I need to do about spell resistance?

[slarden]

Thanks for the help guys. Considering EE mobs have like 3000 CON I'm not surprised the fort is higher.

If I go more Enchant based what will I need to do about spell resistance?

Not all mobs have spell resistance. As a bard you will have a good enough spell diversity to adapt to different situations. Against drow on EE don't use anything require spell pen if you don't have it. For the most part you learn that as you go.

A few things to keep in mind - Exalted Angel and Draconic SLAs go off Charisma modifier and I've been told past lifes, feats, etc. have no effect on those. The only past life benefit for those are completionist and only adds 1 to DC. The easiest way to boost DC without the past lifes is by going drow. They start with 20 CHA and have +2 cha in racial tree. They also have +1 enchant dc in racial tree.

I built a bard caster in Exalted Angel on Lamannia and was very happy with the results which I posted here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445110-The-Official-Spellsinger-Lamannia-Feedback-Thread?p=5378167&viewfull=1#post5378167

[goodspeed]

Think of every monster as having just ingested a large amount of angel dust and is now full ****** barb. That's the kind of fort your trying to overcome in epics lol.

Not to say reflex isn't ridiculous in itself or even will. But they're alot less then fort.

[Maelodic]

I should probably let you know of my intention to create a hybrid caster/melee. With CHA to damage and epic spellcasting not really requiring anything but CHA, I feel that I can make an effective character with a focus on CHA, epic spells for healing/aoe and melee for everything else. I wanted heroic Shout and Reverberate to be effective, as well as Greater Shout and Soundburst for control but those use Fort so it's likely I'll need to spec enchantment instead, which is easier to get the DC up because there's more boosts.
Because I'm making a hybrid, feats are terribly difficult to come by so I'll need to use human. I'll fit more CHA in there somewhere.

It all started with realizing I wanted a abundant step-like ability and couldn't have it on a Bard without going Shadar-Kai, which is a really, really bad idea. Also realizing I love nuking but I still wanted to be a good melee. Exalted Angel was a natural draw for this so I begrudgingly looked for DC boosts.


You can craft a t2 thforged for 6 dc, easier to get then nether orb

Nether Orb is more for the Spell Siphon as I'll be a melee hybrid. On a 45 minute quest, if you use all the spell points 80% of the time, it's an extra 2160, which is almost my entire bar normally.


Not all mobs have spell resistance. As a bard you will have a good enough spell diversity to adapt to different situations. Against drow on EE don't use anything require spell pen if you don't have it. For the most part you learn that as you go.

Thank you, I'm not used to thinking like a caster so I wasn't sure.


A few things to keep in mind - Exalted Angel and Draconic SLAs go off Charisma modifier and I've been told past lifes, feats, etc. have no effect on those. The only past life benefit for those are completionist and only adds 1 to DC. The easiest way to boost DC without the past lifes is by going drow. They start with 20 CHA and have +2 cha in racial tree. They also have +1 enchant dc in racial tree.

I would do Drow if I wasn't so starved for feats- they do look rather cool and I'd get +3-4 to DCs with them, but the extra feat is way too valuable for me on a hybrid in my belief.

The focus on CHA versus everything else is probably what I'll end up focusing on because most of my casting will be for epic spell casting- in this I can bypass having to focus on past life feats, like at all, and just focus on pumping CHA- which also boosts perform, melee damage, UMD, and spell points.
Obviously 54 isn't going to cut it- I'll need to see what I can do to get more and what I'm willing to sacrifice.


I built a bard caster in Exalted Angel on Lamannia and was very happy with the results which I posted here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445110-The-Official-Spellsinger-Lamannia-Feedback-Thread?p=5378167&viewfull=1#post5378167

This actually helped me a lot- looking at the T5s and Capstones, each of the bard trees have some pretty fantastic stuff and each can be built as a hybrid like what I'm doing. I'm still juggling enhancements a bit- Spellsinger T5s and Swashbuckler T5s are both extremely good- Mass Hold SLA into DPS spell rotation combined with Sense Weakness just would be awesome. Exploit Weakness and Coup De Grace in Swashbuckler are also amazing- as well as evasion. I'm hoping that the armor changes enables me to rely less on Evasion or get to Armorer in Warchanter and Different Tack in Spellsinger to bolster defenses enough to justify not going 41 Swashbuckler.

I'm not sure- enhancements can be changed and it's not all that urgent until I farm more equipment.


Think of every monster as having just ingested a large amount of angel dust and is now full ****** barb. That's the kind of fort your trying to overcome in epics lol.

Not to say reflex isn't ridiculous in itself or even will. But they're alot less then fort.

Barbarian- the only class that's ridiculous when you aren't playing it.

[slarden]

I should probably let you know of my intention to create a hybrid caster/melee. With CHA to damage and epic spellcasting not really requiring anything but CHA, I feel that I can make an effective character with a focus on CHA, epic spells for healing/aoe and melee for everything else. I wanted heroic Shout and Reverberate to be effective, as well as Greater Shout and Soundburst for control but those use Fort so it's likely I'll need to spec enchantment instead, which is easier to get the DC up because there's more boosts.
Because I'm making a hybrid, feats are terribly difficult to come by so I'll need to use human. I'll fit more CHA in there somewhere.

It all started with realizing I wanted a abundant step-like ability and couldn't have it on a Bard without going Shadar-Kai, which is a really, really bad idea. Also realizing I love nuking but I still wanted to be a good melee. Exalted Angel was a natural draw for this so I begrudgingly looked for DC boosts.



Nether Orb is more for the Spell Siphon as I'll be a melee hybrid. On a 45 minute quest, if you use all the spell points 80% of the time, it's an extra 2160, which is almost my entire bar normally.



Thank you, I'm not used to thinking like a caster so I wasn't sure.



I would do Drow if I wasn't so starved for feats- they do look rather cool and I'd get +3-4 to DCs with them, but the extra feat is way too valuable for me on a hybrid in my belief.

The focus on CHA versus everything else is probably what I'll end up focusing on because most of my casting will be for epic spell casting- in this I can bypass having to focus on past life feats, like at all, and just focus on pumping CHA- which also boosts perform, melee damage, UMD, and spell points.
Obviously 54 isn't going to cut it- I'll need to see what I can do to get more and what I'm willing to sacrifice.



This actually helped me a lot- looking at the T5s and Capstones, each of the bard trees have some pretty fantastic stuff and each can be built as a hybrid like what I'm doing. I'm still juggling enhancements a bit- Spellsinger T5s and Swashbuckler T5s are both extremely good- Mass Hold SLA into DPS spell rotation combined with Sense Weakness just would be awesome. Exploit Weakness and Coup De Grace in Swashbuckler are also amazing- as well as evasion. I'm hoping that the armor changes enables me to rely less on Evasion or get to Armorer in Warchanter and Different Tack in Spellsinger to bolster defenses enough to justify not going 41 Swashbuckler.

I'm not sure- enhancements can be changed and it's not all that urgent until I farm more equipment.



Barbarian- the only class that's ridiculous when you aren't playing it.

When you say you are going human I assume you mean Purple Dragon Knight so you can use charisma for attack and damage. I guess the bad thing is that if you did this as pure 20 bard you would need to use lesser +1 to get rid of the fighter level.

Although Drow Elf costs you one feat, you can actually drop the spell focus feat since with the starting extra 2 cha it gives you +1 to all your schools. In addition, drow can give you an additional +1 enchant and additional +1 cha beyond human not counting the 2 you start with. You really don't need the spell focus feat if you have 2 Cha instead. The extra 3 charisma will boost all your Epic Destiny SLAs by 1 or possibly 2 if you would have ended up with an odd # as a human.

Just a thought.

[Maelodic]

When you say you are going human I assume you mean Purple Dragon Knight so you can use charisma for attack and damage. I guess the bad thing is that if you did this as pure 20 bard you would need to use lesser +1 to get rid of the fighter level.

Although Drow Elf costs you one feat, you can actually drop the spell focus feat since with the starting extra 2 cha it gives you +1 to all your schools. In addition, drow can give you an additional +1 enchant and additional +1 cha beyond human not counting the 2 you start with. You really don't need the spell focus feat if you have 2 Cha instead. The extra 3 charisma will boost all your Epic Destiny SLAs by 1 or possibly 2 if you would have ended up with an odd # as a human.

Just a thought.

The big thing with Spell Focus really isn't the 1 DC from Spell Focus, it's being able to twist in Enchant or Evocation Specialist for an additional +3 to DC- but then, assuming enchant, it would only effect Will Saves will should be high "enough" anyway, right?

Drows DO look a whole lot cooler =P

[slarden]

The big thing with Spell Focus really isn't the 1 DC from Spell Focus, it's being able to twist in Enchant or Evocation Specialist for an additional +3 to DC- but then, assuming enchant, it would only effect Will Saves will should be high "enough" anyway, right?

Drows DO look a whole lot cooler =P

That's true, when you mentioned divine wrath I assumed you were planning to go Exalted Angel. With Exalted Angel you get +3 to all DCs but those don't stack with the other twists. If youi twist in +3 evocation and +2 evocation you would get +5 evocation and +3 to other schools. If you twisted in +3 enchant and +2 evocation you would still have +3 to all schools if you were in EA and get no benefit from the twists. Of course you probably don't want to be in EA all the time.

[Maelodic]

That's true, when you mentioned divine wrath I assumed you were planning to go Exalted Angel. With Exalted Angel you get +3 to all DCs but those don't stack with the other twists. If youi twist in +3 evocation and +2 evocation you would get +5 evocation and +3 to other schools. If you twisted in +3 enchant and +2 evocation you would still have +3 to all schools if you were in EA and get no benefit from the twists. Of course you probably don't want to be in EA all the time.

Oh, I didn't know that. Very little reason not to go Drow then. Thanks!

[Wipey]

Of course Exalted 3 DC stack with twists.

[Maelodic]

If you twisted in +3 enchant and +2 evocation you would still have +3 to all schools if you were in EA and get no benefit from the twists.


Of course Exalted 3 DC stack with twists.

Is there a thread where this was tested? Would like a clear picture- race is something I cannot change without a TR after I start.

[-Zephyr-]

Is there a thread where this was tested? Would like a clear picture- race is something I cannot change without a TR after I start.

Just tested it, Transcendal Magic does stack with twists.
What doesn't stack in the EA tree is spell penetration.

[Maelodic]

Just tested it, Transcendal Magic does stack with twists.
What doesn't stack in the EA tree is spell penetration.

Thanks for the update.

[SirValentine]

Also epic SLAs are not affected by Spell focus feats, items, past lives and such.


Epic abilities are horribly inconsistent in the way they calculate their DCs. Some benefit from such things, and some don't. But the descriptive text doesn't always make it clear.

[SirValentine]

What doesn't stack in the EA tree is spell penetration.

It doesn't stack with Spell Pen from Magister. It stacks just fine with everything else, including the +3 Spell Pen from Draconic and the +2 Spell Pen from Fatesinger.

[slarden]

I tested it on Lamannia and it definitely stacks which means I can splash 2 rogue and still achieve a 70 enchant DC, but will lose 2 DC from all my epic destiny SLAs and anything using charisma. Possibly worth it for survivability.

This means a bard can achieve close to an 80 enchant DC (not sure if 80 is possible but it will be very close if it isn't) if they go "all in". It also means a 70 workable enchant DC with alot of other utility and DPS is very simple.

[slarden]

Charisma
------------
Startiing Stats 20
Tomes 6
Level Ups 7
Enh 5
Cap 4
Cha Item 11
Insightful 3
Completionist 2
Exceptional 1
Ship 2
ED: Exalted Angel Cha 6
ED: Echoes of Ancestor Draconic Twist 1
ED::Cha Twist 1
ED: Cha Twist 1
Littany 1
Inspire Ex 2
Alchemical Bonus 2
Yugo Pots 2
Great Cha Feat 1
TOTAL SUSTAINABLE CHA 78

ENCHANT DC
----------------
Base 10
Spell Level 6
Charisma 34
FEAT: Wiz Past Life 1
FEAT: Bard Past Life 1
Item: Thunderforege Weapon Tier 2 QS 7
Augment: Greater Enchantment Focus 2
ENH Drow Enchant Lore 1
Ship Buff 1
FEAT: Spell Focus Enchantment 1
FEAT: Greater Spell Focus Enchantment 1
FEAT: Epic Spell Focus Enchnatment 1
SONG: Spell Song Trance 1
ENH Music of the Sewers 1
ENH Music of the Dead 1
ENH Music of the Makers 1
ENH Virtuoso 1
ENH Yellow Magical Crown 1
ENH Prodigy 2
ED: Enchantment Specialist Twist 3
ED: Transcendental Magic (EA) 3

Total 80

I am not saying I would build this because it's not worth the trade-off considering how few quests require greater than a 70 enchant DC. Still, It's interesting that 80 is now an achievable Enchantment DC. And I am quite sure I am missing a few things.

[Maelodic]

I've been able to get the enchant DC up to 69 on a first life while still retaining melee power- thanks for your help everybody.