Math? Swashbuckler damage stat - Cha, Str, Con?

[Jhaeran]

So it seems like there are a plethora of swashbuckler builds - each with a slight twist on flavor.

There are the:

CHA damage and spell DC- Seems effective either as 20 bard (more spells/DC "Bardlike")or 12 Brd/6 Ftr/2 Rog (More feats/HP/melee "Skirmisher"). Seems that there are fewer +CHA abilities than others so maximum CHA may be less than others.

CON damage - huge HP pool and significant damage. Good synergy with Dwarf/Stalwart defender on that Dwarven Paragon build. Plus you get a bunch of HP as a bonus.

STR damage - Nice amount of +STR boosters, synergy benefit with tactical feats.

So, has anyone figured out the differences/benefits between the various approaches?

Seems each has a side benefit - CHA to utility/DC, CON to HP, STR to tactics

Seems STR can be highest (~84?), CON can be 2nd highest (~80?), CHA at the end (~72?)

Seems if you go CON you might be limited to Dwarf for greatest benefit - not that that is a bad thing.

Seems if you STR you have the most racial flexibility, not much more than CHA though

Seems if you go STR or CON you need to sacrifice a good amount in terms of CHA bonus to UMD/spell DC. The side benefit being that fascinate and coup use perform which can still be maintained.

Any other thoughts?

I'm personally intrigued by the CON avenue - purely due to the very obvious HP benefit. May be TR'ing into one soon.

[Nayus]

I'm the greatest hater of any CON-based build in this website, I honestly don't think there is any reason to be con-based other than a shallow HP amount that I have never missed. You can be CHA-based and use your DC for defense or go STR and use Stun/Trip, either way will give you far more survavibility than a few hit points will ever do, unless you're getting OHK'd of course. I tried doing solo EE Madstone yesterday and I wiped, why do they make things that can't be CC'd?

CHA opens up DC and Spells and contrary to the popular belief you do not need to be a Triple Completionist with uber gear for your DC to work, it works very well! It's trickier in Epics since you need to get your EDs, augments and gear going on first but when you switch to your best ED the results are fantastic, it truly opens a new world of possibility for you.
In heroics it'll be a cakewalk but heroics are a cakewalk either way so try a WIS-based bard.

Don't let higher potential STR trick you, the extra damage isn't that higher to be superior to good Crowd Control.
Good CC saves lives.

[Zoda]

I'm the greatest hater of any CON-based build in this website, I honestly don't think there is any reason to be con-based other than a shallow HP amount that I have never missed. You can be CHA-based and use your DC for defense or go STR and use Stun/Trip, either way will give you far more survavibility than a few hit points will ever do, unless you're getting OHK'd of course. I tried doing solo EE Madstone yesterday and I wiped, why do they make things that can't be CC'd?

CHA opens up DC and Spells and contrary to the popular belief you do not need to be a Triple Completionist with uber gear for your DC to work, it works very well! It's trickier in Epics since you need to get your EDs, augments and gear going on first but when you switch to your best ED the results are fantastic, it truly opens a new world of possibility for you.
In heroics it'll be a cakewalk but heroics are a cakewalk either way so try a WIS-based bard.

Don't let higher potential STR trick you, the extra damage isn't that higher to be superior to good Crowd Control.
Good CC saves lives.

Or you can just go with CON (my build) instead and solo every ee in the game without ever dying. Gratz on trying to solo madstone.

[Livmo]

I'm too tired for math at the moment, but am interested the topic. A picture is worth a 1000 words. Below is what I started with. A few points to note. First, the PDK starter gear is not the best fit in gear to start with for this build, but I've been swapping out pieces as I play and get them. Hopefully I will find what I need along the journey to level 28.

The weapons in the far right hand vertical tool bar are the Tortured Livewood Bow, Knight's Sword (longsword), Tyrzza's Bane (rapier), and Alleigence (khopseh). I've since picked up an Envenomed Blade (short sword) and a Golden Guile from the LoD chain.

I'm all about dancing, controlling, and hacking/slashing/stabbing with this toon. I'm using Tyrzza's Bane as my main swashbuckling weapon. I went CHA, STR, CON. Two levels PDK, 1 level sorc, and the rest bard.

My only goal with this toon is to have a good time, so I'm not going to sweat trying to be perfect or optimal with this build. Although I plan to use only what I find for the most part, I did seed this toon with 50k plat, the bow, and the khopesh. The rest is/was starter gear or I've pulled in quest.

http://i.imgur.com/oUDCcH3.jpg

[Scrabbler]

I'm using Tyrzza's Bane as my main swashbuckling weapon.
Gosh, I think Nightforge Stiletto would be better than that, and it takes just 10 minutes to get.

[Nayus]

Or you can just go with CON (my build) instead and solo every ee in the game without ever dying. Gratz on trying to solo madstone.
99% of the monsters in this game can be CC'd, how does your build crowd control? And how does +6 CON MOD make it possible for you to do something I cannot? +6 mod at 28 is 168 HP. One Hundred Sixty Eight.

And nice ego post, you came here just to try to show off, brag about your bad build w/ bad dps and bad CC and derate me? Wow.

[CThruTheEgo]

You've pretty much summed it up OP – str based for max dps, con based for max hp/tanking, cha based for max DCs. Dex based is also an option but imo it's not worth it since a dex dumped swashbuckler can still reach an EE viable reflex save.

I also don't think the gain in dps from going str based is worth the loss of versatility from con or cha based.

Con based is obviously ideal for a tank, but stupidly high HP certainly makes the build effective outside that role (assuming dwarf with throw your weight around so that you're optimizing dps with survivability, the dwarven defender parody is a solid build).

Personally, I like the versatility of cha based.

[Feithlin]

Going Str-based still provides good CC, since fascinate will still be high enough to catch anyone.
The main weakness of going max Str is the lack of evasion, since you need both power surge (F12) and divine might (C1 or FvS1), so there's no room for rogue levels. You can go Str with divine might only, which would reduce dps, but grant more survivability.
All three are interesting imo, and imply very different play styles. Comparison should be aimed at play styles rather than direct comparison of power.

*Edit: Also note about the side elements and not only direct dps. Spell CC is one, survivability is another, or access to furyshot. Those don't really compare to each other.

[Livmo]

Yep, still sleepy for the math part, but for fun I decided to bling the rapier and SB it. I didn't get a chance to fiddle with it much yet. I think it's neat I can start using it at level 10. I still have some Jeweler's Tool Kits from combining cards 7 and 8, so I can always take the augment back out and re-use it. I'd rather use what I find. Anyway for the maths. I equipped the items b4 I made the screen shots.

http://i.imgur.com/Tx0HnQs.jpg

Anecdotally in the run thru Lords of Dust I used the rapier (pre-bling) on Gnomen and then I used the khopesh on the drow afterwards, and both weapons torn up my opponents in the end fight.

[Livmo]

Gosh, I think Nightforge Stiletto would be better than that, and it takes just 10 minutes to get.

That is a great idea! TYVM! I actually made 4 bards (2 at L4 and 2 at L15). Also there is a another benefit. Any left over ore can go to my crafter. I think they the bards are 4, 6, 15, and 16 now.

That is a nice dagger. I wish it had an augment slot.

[cru121]

Am I the only one who's intrigued by INT based swashbuckler? To pick up rogue skills and insightful reflexes. I guess not many care about rogue skills these days.

[johnnyputrid]

That is a great idea! TYVM! I actually made 4 bards (2 at L4 and 2 at L15). Also there is a another benefit. Any left over ore can go to my crafter. I think they the bards are 4, 6, 15, and 16 now.

That is a nice dagger. I wish it had an augment slot.

It has a red slot. http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Stiletto

[Lifespawn]

I prefer the cha based pdk for higher dc's and soon better cc with changes to warchanter but also because even going dwarf lets say a maximum of 350-400 more hp for the loss of a lot of dc and base healing amp can only fit second tier for my build plus human bonus feat.

The con build is solid just not for me I have 2 guildies that trd into it to give it a go we will see how ours perform together at cap.

i'll be twisting in energy burst soundburst and probably cocoon with great dc's on them where the con build will be more likely to take melee feats.

[Livmo]

It has a red slot. http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Stiletto

Sweet! I did not recall it having one and I haven't been there in a long while. TYVM for sharing the link!

Its settled then, I will make a trip to Kundarak after hitting the temple in D for some ore! To the mines! I have a village to feed!

Also, I'm going to collect a few SWF and Swasbuckling weapons for my own comparison purposes and I don't have a dagger, yet, and I have a nice red augment of sonic spell power with no home now that I blinged the rapier.

TY Scrabble and johnnyputrid for the direction and motivation!

[Vanhooger]

99% of the monsters in this game can be CC'd, how does your build crowd control? And how does +6 CON MOD make it possible for you to do something I cannot? +6 mod at 28 is 168 HP. One Hundred Sixty Eight.

And nice ego post, you came here just to try to show off, brag about your bad build w/ bad dps and bad CC and derate me? Wow.

I use that build too and I can tell you that is awesome dps and very good defense as well. With this build your cc is swash knockdown, buckler guardebreaking, and fascinate, no need for more. And again fascinate is working pretty well in madstone, soloed 3th crystal on ee with fascinate very easily. That build easly sit at 1.6k hp so is not 168 hp. Anyway a good caster bard is possible to make it viable in ee especially with next patch.

[thegreatneil]

That build easly sit at 1.6k hp .

Needs more HP.

[Jhaeran]

Thanks for the replies. So no real surprises then.

I currently have a 25 Half-Orc (yuck, but wanted to try it out) pure bard. Poorly geared and still does a good job, DCs are poor but I find I play him more as a buffable melee anyway.

Which led me to the PDK squashbuckler/FoTM build of 12 bard/6 Ftr/ 2 Rog which I also have at 25 now - PDK, focus on CHA. VERY easy to play, I don't even want to play the half orc. Fascinate/low blow/Coup work great. Dancing ball... mediocre results. Usually better to just beat them down singly unless a huge mob then fascinate. Over time he could definitely use some DC improvement since he doesn't even have mind fog and some reliable non-fascinate CC would be great.

Regardless, both are very survivable - displacement is just a broken spell. The PDK has Stalwart, and the 20% hp is nice while the pure bard is pretty weak in the HP. Usually EH, but both are EE useful in a party.

Thinking about TR's now - Going to move one to a bladeforged something for the heck of it and one to another swashbuckler build. Still really considering the Dwarf build... because Dwarf.

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm the greatest hater of any CON-based build in this website, I honestly don't think there is any reason to be con-based other than a shallow HP amount that I have never missed. You can be CHA-based and use your DC for defense or go STR and use Stun/Trip, either way will give you far more survavibility than a few hit points will ever do, unless you're getting OHK'd of course. I tried doing solo EE Madstone yesterday and I wiped, why do they make things that can't be CC'd?

The Infected critters in Madstone are immune to mind-affecting effects. They can be CC'd, just not with mind-affecting stuff like, oh, say, bard songs. Earthquake, on the other hand, works great.

[Zoda]

99% of the monsters in this game can be CC'd, how does your build crowd control? And how does +6 CON MOD make it possible for you to do something I cannot? +6 mod at 28 is 168 HP. One Hundred Sixty Eight.

And nice ego post, you came here just to try to show off, brag about your bad build w/ bad dps and bad CC and derate me? Wow.

My build CCs with uber dps + cleaves and survivability. If nothing is alive there is nothing to cc. Or I can just fascinate.

But if you think you can do everything my build can, then go ahead and solo ee Breaking the Ranks or ee WGU like I did and I shut up.

And yes, I have a well developed ego, not taking it well when some1 is bashing my uber build.

thxbai

[Ancient]

i'll be twisting in energy burst soundburst and probably cocoon 0with great dc's on them
What is the Dc on your cocoon?

[Lifespawn]

What is the Dc on your cocoon?

lol come on dc's are obviously on the other 2

[Sir_Noob]

Question, Using PDK with maxed Cha restricting to Short Sword.
Does this make it worthwhile in the goal to having the DC's plus the damage?

[slarden]

I prefer the cha based pdk for higher dc's and soon better cc with changes to warchanter but also because even going dwarf lets say a maximum of 350-400 more hp for the loss of a lot of dc and base healing amp can only fit second tier for my build plus human bonus feat.

The con build is solid just not for me I have 2 guildies that trd into it to give it a go we will see how ours perform together at cap.

i'll be twisting in energy burst soundburst and probably cocoon with great dc's on them where the con build will be more likely to take melee feats.

I tend to agreed with you, but for the 2 U21 raids on EE those extra hp could really help. Beyond that, yeah I think the extra cha gives you much more utility for a bard vs. bonus con. It seems like the hp differential would be alot more than 400 especially when when hp bonus % are applied in Unyielding.

I am giving this build a try on a deep alt right now just to understand how it works. Then I wanted to try PDK max cha build as well.

[CThruTheEgo]

Question, Using PDK with maxed Cha restricting to Short Sword.
Does this make it worthwhile in the goal to having the DC's plus the damage?

Human gets the same bonus to cha as PDK and so can reach the same DCs, but isn't limited to shortswords. That's why I went with human for the build in my sig.

[slarden]

Human gets the same bonus to cha as PDK and so can reach the same DCs, but isn't limited to shortswords. That's why I went with human for the build in my sig.

I think the one advantage of PDK is they can use cha for attack and damage, but yeah as you said they are limited to short swords.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think the one advantage of PDK is they can use cha for attack and damage, but yeah as you said they are limited to short swords.

That's true but getting cha to attack is hardly an advantage imo. Hitting mobs just isn't an issue anymore as long as you put minimal effort into your to-hit. And the best shortsword (Celestia) is broken by swashbuckler cores.

[Ancient]

It seems like the hp differential would be alot more than 400 especially when when hp bonus % are applied in Unyielding.

In my builds on the test server, it is about 300 hp difference in unyielding.... and yes, a PDK with short swords can solo breaking the ranks. (http://youtu.be/ez4LbGCruA4)

The dwarf build is more dps and the extra hp do help with survival in tough situations. They are both good builds with places they shine.

[Ancient]

That's true but getting cha to attack is hardly an advantage imo. Hitting mobs just isn't an issue anymore as long as you put minimal effort into your to-hit. And the best shortsword (Celestia) is broken by swashbuckler cores.

It is an advantage if you don't have high caliber tomes and need to focus on just a few stats. It may not be for you, but there are people that it does make sense for.

*edit* I'm not so sure your "not an issue" holds true in epic elites. Zoda has 41 str on his main (which is a con based build, 68 con). In his demo video, he is getting grazing hits on a 6. This is not to say he is ineffective, he is soloing breaking the ice and making it look easy. I'm just not so sure that to-hit is as "not-an-issue" as everyone believes. Swashbuckler has enough attacks that (this will sound drastic), I'm wondering if it would be better to run precision even in LD and skip momentum/laying waste.

*edit edit* I just checked my video and with 26 str and precision, I'm getting grazing hits on a 6 as well. Maybe it doesn't matter.

[Lifespawn]

That's true but getting cha to attack is hardly an advantage imo. Hitting mobs just isn't an issue anymore as long as you put minimal effort into your to-hit. And the best shortsword (Celestia) is broken by swashbuckler cores.



the real bonus is how cha can synergize with tactics adding 1/3 your cha modifier on a cha build is substantial.

[Lifespawn]

I tend to agreed with you, but for the 2 U21 raids on EE those extra hp could really help. Beyond that, yeah I think the extra cha gives you much more utility for a bard vs. bonus con. It seems like the hp differential would be alot more than 400 especially when when hp bonus % are applied in Unyielding.

I am giving this build a try on a deep alt right now just to understand how it works. Then I wanted to try PDK max cha build as well.

I'll post hp on my build when I get to cap should be 12-1400 easy we'll see

[Ancient]

the real bonus is how cha can synergize with tactics adding 1/3 your cha modifier on a cha build is substantial.

Any bard can have cha based dmg, pdk has the option to use cha to hit or not. If you can stand the look, pdk is a solid choice. Especially for a 12/6/2 build. I think the pdk flavor is easier to gear/get started.

[Lifespawn]

Icon Enhancement Cormyrean Knight Training.png
Cormyrean Knight Training: You now use Charisma or Strength, whichever is higher, for attack and damage with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, and greatswords. In addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.

with this

•Frozen Fury and Spinning Ice Difficulty checks adjusted to be generally of the form: "Attack enemies around you with a weapon for +2(W) damage. Each enemy is frozen solid if they fail a Fortitude save (14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard Level + Stunning modifiers), for a number of seconds equal to your half your Bard level. Bosses cannot be frozen." Increased ranks increases how much Bard levels contribute.

can make a huge difference.

[Scrabbler]

In addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.
Well, that PDK bonus applies to the DC of tactical feats. Frozen Fury and Spinning Ice are enhancements, not feats. Doesn't matter.


PS. Yes, I'm joking. I fully know that the descriptions is likely to be disobeyed by the software.

[Jhaeran]

I went PDK 12/6/2 for the knight training - A) It doesn't seem that there are that many named shortswords (I still like the envenomed blade though) B) I'm off shortsword quite a bit and don't have a lot of issues hitting even with only a +5 STR bonus.

Since they get the skill point and the free feat I don't see a real negative though - only losing out on dragonmark enhancements. Main limitations are the first level of fighter (bad for skills and going pure) and the really ugly models - human skin on a half orc frame. As above, it can help with tactics too.