I see...

[Zerkul]

... The number of Stalwart Swashbucklers growing rapidly ;) .

Z.

[Qhualor]

I called it before it went live. I am also seeing more and more of them, but seeing plenty with more fighter levels than bard. I can tell when I fight the same mobs as a Swashbuckler or stand from afar while they fight mobs that their DPS appears really good.

[Blackheartox]

Give it couple weeks for people to get over with the "boom" effect.
Old fotm builds are still better, wolf builds are still better, arcanes are still better.
Its one of those, look honey neighbor got a new car, we need to go buy one as well things

[01000010]

its a decent offence/defence combo, and many ways to make them.

At least 6 fighter at least 3 bard, 11 levels to play with.

4+ rogue levels really adds to trash offense with no mercy and some sneak damage
Artificer adds some interesting things
Can add manyshot ranged option with more fighter levels for feats or ranger levels
Druid Fatal harrier would be fun as would some of the druid buffs

So many ways to go that would be strong.

[Qhualor]

Give it couple weeks for people to get over with the "boom" effect.
Old fotm builds are still better, wolf builds are still better, arcanes are still better.
Its one of those, look honey neighbor got a new car, we need to go buy one as well things

More like, give it a couple more weeks and wait for some people to post the new FOTM build as they work on tweaking for the "perfect" build. If the new AC changes and the addition of MRR actually work well, its just a matter of time.

[01000010]

Give it couple weeks for people to get over with the "boom" effect.
Old fotm builds are still better, wolf builds are still better, arcanes are still better.
Its one of those, look honey neighbor got a new car, we need to go buy one as well things

Agree that there will be a big decrease in number of people playing them soon, but I imagine at least a few of the builds will compete very well, decent health, saves and buffs combined with CC, instakill and dps will be strong in the hands of someone able.

Add 11 wizard and you can switch to shiradii for some quests, lol.

[Seikojin]

I +20lr'd out of bard pure to make twf bard/cleric/rogue. When swash hit, I +0lr'd to get swf and now seeing warchanter, I will just tr into pure bard, most likely be swf, instead of twf (as the background for the character is built around twf), and ultimately be a better provider to the group.

[Lorianna]

I had two 24th level bards that I'd been playing, one that was originally an arcane archer bard (prior to the enhancement pass, and afterwards got kind of shelved as I couldn't make it work anymore) and another that was a pseudo melee bard (17 bard, 2 rogue, 1 fighter). After seeing swashbuckler and playing around with it for a bit I finally dusted off my old bardcher and used my +20 to remake her as a 12/6/2 bard/fighter/rogue. Really enjoying her again. :) My other bard went back to 18/2 bard/rogue and is more of a spellsinger/fencer than the "rarh, melee!" type, so they have completely different playstyles.

I'm a big fan of bards, so having the ability to use them even as a splash to play around with in other builds is great fun. Currently noodling around with the idea of an "undead pirate" character, 12 wizard / 5 bard / 3 rogue, for wraith form and swashbuckling. :)

[Powskier]

sounds like fun to tweak characters in the new tree.Ill have to farm light whepons next time my bard gets epic.

[Seikojin]

I had two 24th level bards that I'd been playing, one that was originally an arcane archer bard (prior to the enhancement pass, and afterwards got kind of shelved as I couldn't make it work anymore) and another that was a pseudo melee bard (17 bard, 2 rogue, 1 fighter). After seeing swashbuckler and playing around with it for a bit I finally dusted off my old bardcher and used my +20 to remake her as a 12/6/2 bard/fighter/rogue. Really enjoying her again. :) My other bard went back to 18/2 bard/rogue and is more of a spellsinger/fencer than the "rarh, melee!" type, so they have completely different playstyles.

I'm a big fan of bards, so having the ability to use them even as a splash to play around with in other builds is great fun. Currently noodling around with the idea of an "undead pirate" character, 12 wizard / 5 bard / 3 rogue, for wraith form and swashbuckling. :)

A jibbers build?

Not limiting yourself to zombie mode? Or self healing vamp mode?

[Spoonwelder]

Stalwart really - maybe I am dull but I don't think the synergy is that strong - SD gets AC bonuses and a 50% of the time 25% of the time doublestrike bonus (assuming you go to tier 5) versus the tier 5 of swash of instakill,+5dmg and substantially more crits. Additionally you lose evasion, 2cha,2dex,2%doublestrike,2dmg+5dodge vs. 2 feats from fighter a bit of fort and overbalance.

Point out where I am wrong please.

------------------------------------
For information sake I have a pure Swashbuckler with that I get the following (only L23, has random gen loot other than my raider box balizarde and celistica.) Ie. show me how this is significantly improved by a splash in fighter

AC80
PRR22 (with just base armour and imp. shield mastery - ie. easily can hit 50 once I get the US twist and an item augment)
Dodge 31% (with song)
Perma displace (selfcast)
HP 550+ (depends on ED)
Reflex save - over 60
Oh yeah evasion too

So overall very good defense

doublestrike 23% boostable to 53%
attack speed +45 with haste on

Damage - base high 50a crits in mid 300s add coup de grace which is about 90% effective (missed low blow or mob saves from dance just as I swing and I am still working on slotting more perform) he proves very capable (note these are numbers in shadowdancer as I shift through EDs so in more melee ED it will be much better)

Party support - songs, blurs, hastes and rages - light healing

CC - fascinate - high 80s with gear - mid 70s with nothing on - ottos irresistable

Self healing - hit for mid to high 100s with my cures - scroll heals as well

The main weakness so far is high fort mobs (undead etc..) and bosses or Death warded trash mobs (no Coup). I expect that will change with better gear (for undead getting specific weapons and for armor getting fort breaking) and being in a better ED.

My expectations once at 28 with better gear are
AC90+
PRR50+
Dodge 31% (with song)
Perma displace (selfcast)
HP 750+ (depends on ED)
Damage - base high 80s - crits in mid 40s with crit range 15+ (with exploit weakness this averages out to about 40-45% critting)
Doublestrike - gear will get me 6% more and twist from US +7% + perfect TWF 5% will mean 41-71% at cap - 9% more with 3x epic past lives (
Reflex - should hit low 70s more if I bother to try to improve it

So I expect he will be EE capable with only a bit more work.

[Blackheartox]

Stalwart really - maybe I am dull but I don't think the synergy is that strong - SD gets AC bonuses and a 50% of the time 25% of the time doublestrike bonus (assuming you go to tier 5) versus the tier 5 of swash of instakill,+5dmg and substantially more crits. Additionally you lose evasion, 2cha,2dex,2%doublestrike,2dmg+5dodge vs. 2 feats from fighter a bit of fort and overbalance.

Point out where I am wrong please.

Snip

So I expect he will be EE capable with only a bit more work.


You dear sir, dont know why 6 fighter splash is powerful on bards.
Please REREAD carfully stalwart tree, for example loss of evasion, explain to me how do you lose evasion on a 12 bard 6 fighter 2 rogue build.
Actually just look up the dwarven parody build thread and compare with your own "pure" bard

[Spoonwelder]

So this thread is really about people jumping on Zoda's build and thinking it's the supremest thing since canned meat?

I see 1000HP - partially from Con focus, partially from SD and ED selection
I see 50 more PRR than I expect to have but that equates to about 15% damage differential vs. my junk build

Other than that I see nothing spectacular from SD that makes that the best possible splash or even makes me want to go non-pure.

[01000010]

Been doing some specific testing on swashbuckler, and noticed that skirmisher description on ddowiki is incorrect and misleading.

Skirmisher actually allows you to use bucklers with SWF regardless of wether swashbuckling, so for example you SWF in stalwart with an axe of adaxus if you choose and still be in SWF and defensive stance, you wont however get any of the benefits from swashbuckling, so its not necessarily a good idea.

Another thing that's isn't obvious is that coup de grac doesn't require swashbuckling at all, so can use it with any weapon, even 2h weaps if you choose, many of the special attacks in swashbuckling tree don't require you to be swashbuckling.

Finally, combine these and you find that you can go 9druid/6fighter/5bard and be a SWF wolf(or even bear) wielding a buckler thereby allowing you to be in stalwart defensive stance for the extra health and more and also be able to coup de grac.

One odd thing is different tack doesn't work in animal form, however I THINK that throw weight around would work if wielding an axe(generally weapon specific ones do), tho I haven't tested this in a while. Also last I tested wielding axes in animal forms allow you to benefit from headsmans chop in LD destiny.

[01000010]

So this thread is really about people jumping on Zoda's build and thinking it's the supremest thing since canned meat?

I see 1000HP - partially from Con focus, partially from SD and ED selection
I see 50 more PRR than I expect to have but that equates to about 15% damage differential vs. my junk build

Other than that I see nothing spectacular from SD that makes that the best possible splash or even makes me want to go non-pure.

Lol, idk, maybe that's what this thread is about to you, but I think its obvious that's not what im doing, lol.

[Chai]

So this thread is really about people jumping on Zoda's build and thinking it's the supremest thing since canned meat?

I see 1000HP - partially from Con focus, partially from SD and ED selection
I see 50 more PRR than I expect to have but that equates to about 15% damage differential vs. my junk build

Other than that I see nothing spectacular from SD that makes that the best possible splash or even makes me want to go non-pure.

It tanks EE dragon and does enough DPS to keep the aggro.

part of the issue is the small amount of PRR loss from downgrading to light armor + buckler can be made up in other ways - part of the long standing issue of the defense gained by plate + towershield not being worth the dps sacrifice. People are finding out they can be 90% the tank they used to be and 150% DPS they used to be from their old S&B tank.

[Spoonwelder]

It tanks EE dragon and does enough DPS to keep the aggro.

part of the issue is the small amount of PRR loss from downgrading to light armor + buckler can be made up in other ways - part of the long standing issue of the defense gained by plate + towershield not being worth the dps sacrifice.

Here I was thinking it might have something specific to do with SD....not a completely spec'd out build that was built with a specific purpose.....then get a ****ish response from a troll....to an honest question - what in SD is so superb? HP is the answer - that's all he had to say.

Wouldn't change my build choices unless I was building an EE Deathwyrm tank....and had full destinies and a few EPLs....and gear and people to run it with and and and.

[01000010]

Here I was thinking it might have something specific to do with SD....not a completely spec'd out build that was built with a specific purpose.....then get a ****ish response from a troll....to an honest question - what in SD is so superb? HP is the answer - that's all he had to say.

Wouldn't change my build choices unless I was building an EE Deathwyrm tank....and had full destinies and a few EPLs....and gear and people to run it with and and and.

Huh?

Overbalance will knock trash mobs down a good bit with the extra 15% shield bash, were talking at least 35% shieldbashing with the feat, then add the % from a bashing shield and swf speed.

Stance can give: higher saves, higher str, higher con, higher threat, higher health.

You can could go with stalwart tier 5s rather than SB if ya want giving more damage and doublestrike or stay with SB for crits and coup de grac, theres very good synergy with SD, forget whoevers build you are referring to, there are a ton classes that can synergize even further with stalwart swashbuckler start.

Doesn't mean your build or anyone elses sucks, there are tradeoffs, but you cant deny the synergies.


EDIT: the lack of overbalance on druid animal form combos due to no bash procs really sucks.

[Chai]

Here I was thinking it might have something specific to do with SD....not a completely spec'd out build that was built with a specific purpose.....then get a ****ish response from a troll....to an honest question - what in SD is so superb? HP is the answer - that's all he had to say.

Wouldn't change my build choices unless I was building an EE Deathwyrm tank....and had full destinies and a few EPLs....and gear and people to run it with and and and.

It keeps evasion with 70+ reflex save. then all the stuff youd expect from stalwart, HP, AC, PRR, +3 to saves, 20% HP, +6 con (which adds to DPS for a con to damage build) etc....

Pure is legit as a striker build with added CC - might get more crazy when the spellsinger changes are rolled out.

Its fun to play as it is survivable in tough conditions and can deal significant DPS to the tune of not just being another doorstop tank.

[Blackheartox]

Here I was thinking it might have something specific to do with SD....not a completely spec'd out build that was built with a specific purpose.....then get a ****ish response from a troll....to an honest question - what in SD is so superb? HP is the answer - that's all he had to say.

Wouldn't change my build choices unless I was building an EE Deathwyrm tank....and had full destinies and a few EPLs....and gear and people to run it with and and and.

Troll is different then a person who is tired from arguing with people who have no ability to research or make a conclusion with their own brain.
I pointed his build out, you should be able to deduce by yourself after reading it why stalwart has nice synergy with bard.
Even eldritch has nice things to offer with autobash, but that is a different story.
Personally if i was to ever build a bard, i would prolly do it once mrr hits and do a fighter bard wizzy hybrid and try to maximize shield bashing.
Issue would be ap i guess.

But, claiming yours is superior while anyone knows how much stalwart offers is my way of looking at your post as either
a) someone who lacks knowledge theras me pointing to his build to ensure you know what this thread talks about
b) someone who is actually the real troll, sorry we have only one teh troll and hes on hiatus
c) some intergalactic creature that just learned how to write and read the human language and got into mmos

[01000010]

Troll is different then a person who is tired from arguing with people who have no ability to research or make a conclusion with their own brain.
I pointed his build out, you should be able to deduce by yourself after reading it why stalwart has nice synergy with bard.
Even eldritch has nice things to offer with autobash, but that is a different story.
Personally if i was to ever build a bard, i would prolly do it once mrr hits and do a fighter bard wizzy hybrid and try to maximize shield bashing.
Issue would be ap i guess.

But, claiming yours is superior while anyone knows how much stalwart offers is my way of looking at your post as either
a) someone who lacks knowledge theras me pointing to his build to ensure you know what this thread talks about
b) someone who is actually the real troll, sorry we have only one teh troll and hes on hiatus
c) some intergalactic creature that just learned how to write and read the human language and got into mmos

Just a heads up, you cant take edk shield bash with the stalwart shield bash, they forgot to add text saying you cant, but they block eachother out, still, wiz isn't bad combo even without it

[Blackheartox]

Just a heads up, you cant take edk shield bash with the stalwart shield bash, they forgot to add text saying you cant, but they block eachother out, still, wiz isn't bad combo even without it

Aww sad panda, would be bit to strong tho heh, wizzy in wraith form like friend is doing might be ok, a nice additional layer of defense.
Personally im just hyped for the mrr and prr change, so many different non palie non monk builds in mind to try out