Restricted guild members

[Tscheuss]

Member-ranked guildies can no longer reveal a ship's hookpoints. This has the sad effect of limiting these characters to only those amenities that are currently placed, and they cannot get the buffs that are in storage. This causes a true class division in the game—the privileged, who have access to all guild amenities on a ship; and those who can only get the buffs that the privileged leave out for them. :(

Please tell me that this is not WAI.

Please tell me that this will get fixed.

ETA: I should have worded this better. I drafted the following after I got some sleep. :o

Sorry if I wasn't more clear on my topic. I am fine with only guild leaders and officers making changes to the amenities. I do not want the anarchy of everyone being able to switch everything around will ye, nill ye. I do not want non-officers to have access to spending guild funds.

I want one small room able to be flagged by the guild leader as changeable (let this be the same room on all ships).
If the guild leader sets it as locked, it is no different than any other hookpoint.
If the guild leader sets it as unlocked, then that room's amenity can be exchanged by anyone for any other small amenity in the ship's storage.
Perhaps give the room its own hookpoint control.

I want the guild leader to have this option; it will still be her choice whether to use it.

This is not about total lockdown vs. total access.

This is about granting ALL guild members access to using ALL amenities in a controlled manner.

In other words, if the current lockdown is black, and the unlocked version we had before the patch is white, I am advocating a dark gray. :)

[Fnordian]

Member-ranked guildies can no longer reveal a ship's hookpoints. This has the sad effect of limiting these characters to only those amenities that are currently placed, and they cannot get the buffs that are in storage. This causes a true class division in the game—the privileged, who have access to all guild amenities on a ship; and those who can only get the buffs that the privileged leave out for them. :(

Please tell me that this is not WAI.

Please tell me that this will get fixed.


I think this change was actually a fix to the problem of non-officers changing what was placed where and moving stuff around from storage... (as well as spending astral shards and platinum in the guild bank). Actually, someone said that non-guild members (invited to ship) could do some of this stuff too but I'm not sure if that was confirmed or not.

Anyway, I think the real issue is that there's only two ranks that can be assigned to guild members (not counting guild leader and guild successor since they only affect two individuals) yet we have several different abilities: invite to guild, promote/demote, reveal/change hook points, purchase amenities, purchase ships. What we really need is a way to give individual members different abilities, or more ranks with different abilities (or customizable).

If you trust all the guild members, simplest thing to do is make them all officers. But if you don't trust them with recruiting or having access to the guild shards and platinum, it is rather a nuisance.

[Tscheuss]

I think this change was actually a fix to the problem of non-officers changing what was placed where and moving stuff around from storage... (as well as spending astral shards and platinum in the guild bank). Actually, someone said that non-guild members (invited to ship) could do some of this stuff too but I'm not sure if that was confirmed or not.

Anyway, I think the real issue is that there's only two ranks that can be assigned to guild members (not counting guild leader and guild successor since they only affect two individuals) yet we have several different abilities: invite to guild, promote/demote, reveal/change hook points, purchase amenities, purchase ships. What we really need is a way to give individual members different abilities, or more ranks with different abilities (or customizable).

If you trust all the guild members, simplest thing to do is make them all officers. But if you don't trust them with recruiting or having access to the guild shards and platinum, it is rather a nuisance.

If you had hookpoints showing on your own ship, they would show on a ship you were visiting. You could shift amenities in and out of storage, but the guild funds you could see were your own, and the Buy buttons were disabled. You bring up a good point. I haven't tested whether officers can still see and interact with other ships' hookpoints.

I hope this is just a temporary thing while they implement something more elegant.

[PermaBanned]

I hope this is just a temporary thing while they implement something more elegant.
I doubt it. Instead, I suspect there will be a series of promotions from Member to Officer, along with some departures by those offended at their lack of promotion. I have to say that as someone who only has Member status in a small to moderate size guild, I'm ok with this. People in my guild have spent a considerable amount of their own money getting the ship and amenities we have now - why should I have access to their deposited (shard) funds, or the ability to rearrange/replace what they've spent money on?

[Tscheuss]

I doubt it. Instead, I suspect there will be a series of promotions from Member to Officer, along with some departures by those offended at their lack of promotion. I have to say that as someone who only has Member status in a small to moderate size guild, I'm ok with this. People in my guild have spent a considerable amount of their own money getting the ship and amenities we have now - why should I have access to their deposited (shard) funds, or the ability to rearrange/replace what they've spent money on?

I don't think member status chars should have any access to guild funds, so we agree there.

I have member characters that have bought, placed, and renewed shrines over the years, and a couple of them bought all the plat amenities for their respective guilds when the update came up. Now those characters cannot access the amenities in storage that they emptied their own pockets for because of this problem. :(

It's Goldilocks time again. We did 'too hard' and 'too cold'; when can we get to 'just right'?

[Tshober]

Anyway, I think the real issue is that there's only two ranks that can be assigned to guild members (not counting guild leader and guild successor since they only affect two individuals) yet we have several different abilities: invite to guild, promote/demote, reveal/change hook points, purchase amenities, purchase ships. What we really need is a way to give individual members different abilities, or more ranks with different abilities (or customizable).

I agree that there should be more differentiation than just officer and member. DDO actually had commands in place (many years ago) that allowed guild leaders to create new ranks but this entire customizable ranking system was abandoned when it was discovered that a guild leader actually changing his guild's ranks was changing the ranks for every guild in the game as well! You can still see these commands today by doing a "/help guild" command in game. Wish they had fixed it instead of abandoning it. The recent guild re-vamp would have been an excellent opportunity to beef up all aspects of guilds in DDO.

[Ausdoerrt]

I dunno, my guild had an officer meeting to decide how to outfit the ship, and everyone's suggestions were considered. I don't see what's the point in changing the layout every time you want to buff.

If you feel like you spent a lot on the amenities and feel entitled to control their placing, maybe you should discuss a promotion with your guild leader?

[Tscheuss]

I dunno, my guild had an officer meeting to decide how to outfit the ship, and everyone's suggestions were considered. I don't see what's the point in changing the layout every time you want to buff.

If you feel like you spent a lot on the amenities and feel entitled to control their placing, maybe you should discuss a promotion with your guild leader?

I don't want to change the layout every time I buff. I just want one small room available to cycle through all the buffs in storage so I can get ALL the buffs. I am quite content being a non-officer in those guilds. It hasn't restricted me until this patch. It would be nice to have one small room excluded from the lockout.

[Gauthaag]

so at first post u call officers privileged, while on last one u re actually asking for special privilege:) Yeah, any guild would be probly happy to leave one spot for u, which no one can actually use while u re fiddling with amenities.

solution is pretty simple - if u re trusted member of guild, ask for officership. if u are not earn your trust. If this not working - change guild or make your own.




P.S. - i d like to have custom ranks, even wo any changes in asociated powers, just for adding flavor and diversity

[Tscheuss]

so at first post u call officers privileged, while on last one u re actually asking for special privilege:) Yeah, any guild would be probly happy to leave one spot for u, which no one can actually use while u re fiddling with amenities.

solution is pretty simple - if u re trusted member of guild, ask for officership. if u are not earn your trust. If this not working - change guild or make your own.




P.S. - i d like to have custom ranks, even wo any changes in asociated powers, just for adding flavor and diversity

I am not asking for special privilege. I want all guild members to have access to all guild buffs on ship like we just did. I want it back. I really don't think a guild should have to make everyone an officer just so they can get all the buffs.

[rayworks]

Member-ranked guildies can no longer reveal a ship's hookpoints. This has the sad effect of limiting these characters to only those amenities that are currently placed, and they cannot get the buffs that are in storage. This causes a true class division in the game—the privileged, who have access to all guild amenities on a ship; and those who can only get the buffs that the privileged leave out for them. :(

Please tell me that this is not WAI.

Please tell me that this will get fixed.

Maybe if they were a better guildie the leader would promote them to officer. The system is WAI and its a good thing that not every guildie can change amenities at will.

[Ausdoerrt]

Maybe if they were a better guildie the leader would promote them to officer. The system is WAI and its a good thing that not every guildie can change amenities at will.

I would add that it's the way the old buff system worked - members could add time to buffs but not replace - and so the current implementation mirrors exactly that.

Considering the problems people have been having with griefing and other issues resulting from allowing members to modify buffs, I'd say the return to the old system is a good thing.

[cru121]

I just want one small room available to cycle through all the buffs in storage so I can get ALL the buffs.
Disagree. Buy a bigger ship. You're not supposed to get all buffs if you don't have enough hook points. They should implement a timer that would prevent such abuse of the system.

[Tscheuss]

Disagree. Buy a bigger ship. You're not supposed to get all buffs if you don't have enough hook points. They should implement a timer that would prevent such abuse of the system.

That is an interesting opinion. I disagree with it, but it is interesting nonetheless. :)

[Tscheuss]

I would add that it's the way the old buff system worked - members could add time to buffs but not replace - and so the current implementation mirrors exactly that.

Considering the problems people have been having with griefing and other issues resulting from allowing members to modify buffs, I'd say the return to the old system is a good thing.

Close, but not exactly. members could also buy any buff and place it on an empty hookpoint, because they could reveal the hookpoints. This is not a 'return to the old system'.

I still think the best UI would allow the guild leader to lock the configuration of all but one small room, and leave that one room for members to cycle through the remaining buffs if they choose. I have no idea how difficult or easy that would be to implement, though.

[Tscheuss]

Maybe if they were a better guildie the leader would promote them to officer. The system is WAI and its a good thing that not every guildie can change amenities at will.

Not every guild makes every member an officer. I agree that we don't want everyone changing amenities at will, but there are less militant ways to prevent that.

[Kalimah]

Sorry to disagree with you here but I think this change is a good one. We have had issues in the past where our non officer members will change things on the boat. That maybe isn't quite such a big deal when you are talking platinum amenities but changing out some of these shard shrines would be enough to really send someone over the deep end.

I really never understood why the rank and file member would have that control anyway..it definitely should be an officer only event.

[Thordicain]

I am just a lowly Guild Member and went to donate Plat to the Guild. Thought about the loss of use of Amenities and walked away with Plat in my Bank.

DDO fixed the Loss of Amenities and the Guild Officers use of Guild funds, but went over the top with the use of Amenities. Would start my own Guild, but that takes forever to build correctly.

[Ausdoerrt]

Close, but not exactly. members could also buy any buff and place it on an empty hookpoint, because they could reveal the hookpoints. This is not a 'return to the old system'.
Well, that happened how often? Yeah, not very. I also know that for big guilds the layout was "locked down" by agreement anyway. It's a return in intent if not in specific mechanics.


I still think the best UI would allow the guild leader to lock the configuration of all but one small room, and leave that one room for members to cycle through the remaining buffs if they choose. I have no idea how difficult or easy that would be to implement, though.
Which is basically cheesing the system. D&D and DDO by extension are designed around the idea of trade-offs. If you don't have the biggest and bestest ship, you gotta choose, which buffs you can and cannot place.

Besides, it's not like not having one or two buffs will have a huge impact on your character or playing experience. Even post-change, guild buffs are still a bonus, not a requirement.

[eris2323]

Disagree. Buy a bigger ship. You're not supposed to get all buffs if you don't have enough hook points. They should implement a timer that would prevent such abuse of the system.

Kind of agree with this.... implement a timer so they can't 'roll through' all available buffs... gives you something to work towards (a bigger ship)

[JOTMON]

Member-ranked guildies can no longer reveal a ship's hookpoints. This has the sad effect of limiting these characters to only those amenities that are currently placed, and they cannot get the buffs that are in storage. This causes a true class division in the game—the privileged, who have access to all guild amenities on a ship; and those who can only get the buffs that the privileged leave out for them. :(

Please tell me that this is not WAI.

Please tell me that this will get fixed.

I am fine with this.

Officers can change and move hookpoints, members cant.

Once you have the bigger boats this is no longer an issue , the biggest boats have enough hookpointsto cover all the ammenities.

[Wipey]

Why would you want an empty hold ?
Just agree on a config that pleases most people, even old Typhoon and new cheap Glaive have enough space to fit almost everything useful.

[Gauthaag]

I am not asking for special privilege. I want all guild members to have access to all guild buffs on ship like we just did. I want it back. I really don't think a guild should have to make everyone an officer just so they can get all the buffs.

nope u re not really asking for special privilege - u re just asking for stripping all other guildies of one small hookpoint buff only so u can get all buffs possible. sounds reasonable.

Make your own guild, buy your own ship, then do what u want:)

[Hendrik]

I don't want to change the layout every time I buff. I just want one small room available to cycle through all the buffs in storage so I can get ALL the buffs. I am quite content being a non-officer in those guilds. It hasn't restricted me until this patch. It would be nice to have one small room excluded from the lockout.

Then you need to discuss that with your Guild leadership and not here.

[Chai]

This type of change is needed to cover their tails when they monetize stuff this heavily. If the guild leader pays RL$ for shards and then fills the boat up with what they want, making it so that anyone can just come along and wipe it out / change it to something else is asking for a customer service nightmare. That extra layer of control, allowing guild leaders to choose who can/cant place/remove buffs helps alleviate some folks concerns when deciding to spend/not spend money.

[Cordovan]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

[Hendrik]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

And those that feel just as strongly that it should not be changed should chime in as well.

;)

Only Guild Leadership/Officers should be allowed to change or place amenities.

If you give the ability to anyone then they will change/move buffs to selfishly suit themselves instead of the Guild as a whole. Furthermore, if a Guild wants to grant everyone access to the hookpoints, they can do that right now without any further coding.

The option are there, right now, to do what the OP has asked for.

No change to this mechanic is necessary.

[Tshober]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

Thanks Cordovan. I am glad for the change made with the 22.1 patch. As you said, only leaders and officer should be able to buy/change amenities. However, I do think it would be nice if non-officers could view the ship's amenities configuration status via the First Mate and be able to deposit plat and astral shards into the guild funds there, but not be able to make any changes or spend any guild funds.

There is still a guild vulnerability to non-guild members who are invited onto airships by guild members. They can still access the hookpoints and remove amenities from airships that they are invited onto as a guest. I have tested and verified that this vulnerability still exists after the 22.1 patch. Can we please also close this vulnerability as well?

[Powskier]

new buffs kill it;but they never needed to be here in the 1st place.Now players are cryn here, cause they cant get EVERY single one ,by swappin buffs around.Build as character and play it...where did this buff idea come from ??i find it stupid from the start..I use em and provide for the guild,but really..just nerf em alll!

[CaptainSpacePony]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. !


As it has always been, so shall it remain.

[DemonStorm333]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

as an officer of my guild I truly believe that members should have access to guild storage amaneties but not able to purchase them obviously some trust would be in play that they would put the amenaties baack the way they were after they got their buff but then again that just me

[Tshober]

as an officer of my guild I truly believe that members should have access to guild storage amaneties but not able to purchase them obviously some trust would be in play that they would put the amenaties baack the way they were after they got their buff but then again that just me

Imagine if you will a large guild with 40 or 50 members all trying to do that at once. There is a good reason to limit that capability.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I would add that it's the way the old buff system worked - members could add time to buffs but not replace - and so the current implementation mirrors exactly that.


This, and this is exactly how it should work.

It also favors smaller, close-knit guilds rather than the "invite every newb in the harbor for reknown" monsters, and that's a bonus for everyone.

[Tshober]

This, and this is exactly how it should work.

It also favors smaller, close-knit guilds rather than the "invite every newb in the harbor for reknown" monsters, and that's a bonus for everyone.

Meh, if more guilds were willing to invite new players and make them feel welcome in the game, then maybe DDO would be better able to retain new players and would grow its player base and THAT would be a bonus for everyone who likes to play DDO and for Turbine too.

[Fnordian]

Meh, if more guilds were willing to invite new players and make them feel welcome in the game, then maybe DDO would be better able to retain new players and would grow its player base and THAT would be a bonus for everyone who likes to play DDO and for Turbine too.


Welcoming new players is always a good thing. :)

However, the number of guildless characters (outside snowy Korthos) seems to be very few. So I don't think it's really a big problem for new players to find a guild...but I could be mistaken.

[Fnordian]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

I don't have strong feelings either way. In my (very small) guild, all active characters are officers anyway. In a larger guild, if all members are moving things around it could be disruptive. On the other hand, it could be beneficial. So either way could potentially work.

However, I do feel that more customization of ranks and guild privileges would be a welcome addition to the game.

And more chocolate.

[Psiandron]

I really don't want everybody and their brother swapping around the buffs whenever they want. Mostly, I doubt that they would put it back, at least not every time. Too, I'm an officer and there's is no way I would go to all the trouble to swap stuff out for one buff, even if it is 6 hours long and persistent, so I really don't see the point in leaving the buffs open to being messed with.

And, what about others who are getting buffs at the same time? It's not like people are going to notice that the configuration has changed right away, what with the top-side button and all.

Finally, while most people who play the game and most people I've been in guilds with are reasonably decent human beings, that is not always true. Sometimes even decent people get a burr under their saddle about something, maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong it doesn't matter. Sometimes guilds invite people in that end up not fitting in well and this sometimes leads to hard feelings. Sometimes guild invite *******s to join... by accident. The point is that there is no reason, imo, to leave guilds completely vulnerable to their entire membership base. ( yeah that sounds over-stated, but I'm not changing it :P)


PSA:
******* is a relative term. One man's ******* is another man's saint.

This is Psi saying, "Remember, knowing is half the battle."

;D

[Kalimah]

This, and this is exactly how it should work.

It also favors smaller, close-knit guilds rather than the "invite every newb in the harbor for reknown" monsters, and that's a bonus for everyone.

Smaller close knit guilds can make all the members officers. Not all guilds are a handful of pals and we should not expect it to be thus. There should be a control mechanism for the amenities on the boat that are only accessible by guild leadership. What is the purpose of ranks in the guild if not for this kind of thing???

[Fnordian]

Disagree. Buy a bigger ship. You're not supposed to get all buffs if you don't have enough hook points. They should implement a timer that would prevent such abuse of the system.

The developers could have implemented a timer...but they didn't.

I don't think swapping out amenities is something you're not supposed to do. However, it's going to take awhile if you have a lot to swap, and I suspect would become a tedious chore.

Buying a bigger ship is far more convenient since you get all (new) buffs from the buff bar, and you don't have to show hookpoints, go below deck to a hookpoint, swap to a new amenity, then go to the buff point in the room, click to get the buff, then rinse and repeat. If you do this for one or two buffs, it's only a minor inconvenience (assuming you're not late for a quest). If you have half a dozen or more to swap in/out, it's generally going to be more hassle than it's worth after awhile.

If the developers decide to implement a timer in the future so be it, but for now I think it's WAI. You can do it, and for one or two buffs (especially from a stateroom), it may be worth the effort, but in general it's not particularly fast or fun.

[Jango-EX]

The playerbase is becoming more and more idiotic, it seems. First I see a complain about guild buffs not lasting a month anymore, so basically someone was complaining that an exploit was fixed. Now I see someone complaining about "privileged guild members" because they are able to cheese out the guild amenity system by pathetically changing rooms in their airship to get all buffs possible... EVERY. SINGLE. BUFF. RUN. Jeez.

I guess Turbine didn't put a timer because sometimes we would want to swap places without the hassle of waiting a cooldown, or because we maybe put a buff instead of the other and we want to correct it quickly. But no, people can't reason that, they must reason that since Turbine didn't restrict stuff in every possible way, OF COURSE they WANT people to swap thirteen amenities in some room everytime they want to get buffed.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Thumbed_Servant]

No, this should be left as is. Only officers should be allowed to work with the hook points.

If someone really wants to spend time changing out hook points to get more buffs then I must say they are obsessive compulsive. We have MORE buffs now than ever before even if we cannot access ALL possible buffs. Not having EVERY thing possible is NOT sadness, it's life. Having more now than before is a PLUS, even if you do not have every thing now available. Some guilds will want to restrict who can and cannot change amenities. There have ALWAYS been 2 classes of guildies...officers and non officers. So what?

No, leave this be. This change to original poster speaks of is a FIX, not a bug, and I say it's good as it is now.

[UurlockYgmeov]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

we have stated time and time again that we need a complete guild system; with multiple membership tiers and the ability to allow leadership to delegate (trust) authority and responsibility. With that said add another tier that can swap amenities but not purchase.

[Qhualor]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

Please keep it as is. In the past my guild would have occasional problems with redundant buffs, buying lower level buffs having to buy new buffs to replace them or replacing a buff with another buff that they personally preferred instead.

[golruul]

Current system is fine as-is and shouldn't change.

If you want access to more buffs at once, get a bigger ship -- this is the whole point of larger ships.

The ability to constantly change amenities in and out to get EVERYTHING shouldn't be allowed -- there should be a timer or something to prevent that from happening.

[Karadon_II]

Member-ranked guildies can no longer reveal a ship's hookpoints. This has the sad effect of limiting these characters to only those amenities that are currently placed, and they cannot get the buffs that are in storage. This causes a true class division in the game—the privileged, who have access to all guild amenities on a ship; and those who can only get the buffs that the privileged leave out for them. :(

Please tell me that this is not WAI.

Please tell me that this will get fixed.

This is WAI.
This should not be "fixed".
That is all.

[Thordicain]

The Guild is made of 100s of Members. Each member has different needs and desires with different levels of play. This is where trust comes into play and choices.

I do admit that control of expenses and preventing the loss of resources is needed, but DDO has fixed that.

I think they overdid it when they controlled the Permanent Buffs and set them to Officers control only.

[AdamSmith]

Non-officer members should be able to use the kobold on the top deck to buy amenities.

Non-officer members should be allowed to place amenities in empty slots.

Non-officer members should NOT be allowed to store amenities and move them around at their leisure.

THIS is the system we had prior to update 22. That is, members could fill empty amenity slots but they couldn't modify or replace existing amenities.

[Thordicain]

Non-officer members should be able to use the kobold on the top deck to buy amenities.

Non-officer members should be allowed to place amenities in empty slots.

Non-officer members should NOT be allowed to store amenities and move them around at their leisure.

THIS is the system we had prior to update 22. That is, members could fill empty amenity slots but they couldn't modify or replace existing amenities.

All the U22 Amenities are Permanent once purchased. That is the big difference. Many are only able to be purchased with Astral Shards. Members can donate Plat and Astral Shards at the Airship Vendor. Now there is no choice by the Members except the officers.

[cjgoddard]

Non-officer members should be able to use the kobold on the top deck to buy amenities.

Non-officer members should be allowed to place amenities in empty slots.

Non-officer members should NOT be allowed to store amenities and move them around at their leisure.

THIS is the system we had prior to update 22. That is, members could fill empty amenity slots but they couldn't modify or replace existing amenities.

i have to agree with this...
it gives them a chance to be apart of the guild, and how their donation is spent.
without it, they will be less willing to deposit into account.

[Rykka]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

I like things as they are. Members don't need to be changing things on ships. If we need more slots for amenities we'll get a bigger ship. If a member in good standing wants an amenity we don't have slotted and they don't mind performing the duties of a Ship's Steward, we'll offer to promote them to officer for that purpose and handle things internally with guild rules.


We already have our rules on the ship, you make sure that you leave the ship as you found it.

[Powskier]

this is great;the one thing most players agree to like causes an uproar.Ship buffs so important ,the nice upgraded buffs are causing infighting?I have always said they add to much power,hence are to important..nerf whole thing ,except stuff likenavigator/ bar/bindpoint/ammo ,repair guys / ect...

[Tscheuss]

Well, that happened how often? Yeah, not very. I also know that for big guilds the layout was "locked down" by agreement anyway. It's a return in intent if not in specific mechanics.


Which is basically cheesing the system. D&D and DDO by extension are designed around the idea of trade-offs. If you don't have the biggest and bestest ship, you gotta choose, which buffs you can and cannot place.

Besides, it's not like not having one or two buffs will have a huge impact on your character or playing experience. Even post-change, guild buffs are still a bonus, not a requirement.

1. Likely happened almost as often as someone forgot to renew a buff, so a lot more than you credit. :)

2. This is one of the benefits of the new system. The tradeoff is that you cannot get them all with just one click on the topside buff button.

3. True. It's not like missing ten or twelve buffs will have much impact. :)

[Tscheuss]

Kind of agree with this.... implement a timer so they can't 'roll through' all available buffs... gives you something to work towards (a bigger ship)

Oh, no! We need LESS 1984 in game, not more.

[Tscheuss]

nope u re not really asking for special privilege - u re just asking for stripping all other guildies of one small hookpoint buff only so u can get all buffs possible. sounds reasonable.

Make your own guild, buy your own ship, then do what u want:)

Wrong again. I want one small room left unlocked so ALL members can have access to ALL of a ship's amenities. I understand there are guilds with all officers, but there are also guilds with lots of members and only some officers. If their ships are not big enough to slot all buffs, then there is a class division with respect to available buffs.

[Tscheuss]

Then you need to discuss that with your Guild leadership and not here.

This change impacts more than one person in one guild. Here is a good place to discuss it. :)

[Tscheuss]

This type of change is needed to cover their tails when they monetize stuff this heavily. If the guild leader pays RL$ for shards and then fills the boat up with what they want, making it so that anyone can just come along and wipe it out / change it to something else is asking for a customer service nightmare. That extra layer of control, allowing guild leaders to choose who can/cant place/remove buffs helps alleviate some folks concerns when deciding to spend/not spend money.

I don't have a problem with the guild leader having control over expenses and placement. I just want the guild leaders to have the option to leave one small room unlocked so that non-officers may also cycle through the stored amenities. :)

[Tscheuss]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

Sorry if I wasn't more clear on my topic. I am fine with only guild leaders and officers making changes to the amenities. I do not want the anarchy of everyone being able to switch everything around will ye, nill ye. I do not want non-officers to have access to spending guild funds.

I want one small room able to be flagged by the guild leader as changeable (let this be the same room on all ships).
If the guild leader sets it as locked, it is no different than any other hookpoint.
If the guild leader sets it as unlocked, then that room's amenity can be exchanged by anyone for any other small amenity in the ship's storage.
Perhaps give the room its own hookpoint control.

I want the guild leader to have this option; it will still be her choice whether to use it.

This is not about total lockdown vs. total access.

This is about granting ALL guild members access to using ALL amenities in a controlled manner.

[Hendrik]

This is not about total lockdown vs. total access.

This is about granting ALL guild members access to using ALL amenities in a controlled manner.

This is about bypassing the need to upgrade your ship for further access to more hookpoints where such access is a non-issue.

Your Guild leader can do what you want right now. Make everyone an Officer and designate X room where you can swap in and out the 40 amenities(minus the ones perm placed) one at a time so you can have all the buffs you want without the need to get a bigger ship. That is a whole heck of a lot of extra work for everyone in your Guild, whole lot of waiting for people to swap in and out buffs, whole lot of extra client lag swapping in and out those buffs, heck, that just a whole lot of extra aggravation you have placed on your guildmates, group/raid, and anyone else waiting on you or your guild members to do this.

You really think 5/11 other people are really going to want to wait for you to swap in/out all those buffs? You going to expect them to wait for all that?

Your going to want to get your Leader to allow a Large Hookpoint too in addition to a Small so you can swap those in and out too.

Easier thing to do would be to just upgrade your ship to avoid all that hassle and not have all those people wait for you.

[Chai]

This is about bypassing the need to upgrade your ship for further access to more hookpoints where such access is a non-issue.

I thought no one was forced. Were we mistaken?




Easier thing to do would be to just upgrade your ship to avoid all that hassle and not have all those people wait for you.

Right, because while no one forces us to upgrade, it sure does look like that path has been incentivised quite a bit, by making it more aggrivating not to do so for not only the player, but those waiting on them, as you have claimed.

This is a side effect of increasing the degree of monetization. Even the modified version of the OP, where they swap out buffs they want, can lead to a CS nightmare real quick. But hey....you can always upgrade your boat and buffs, and you wont have that problem. :p

How convenient....

[Gremmlynn]

I am not asking for special privilege. I want all guild members to have access to all guild buffs on ship like we just did. I want it back. I really don't think a guild should have to make everyone an officer just so they can get all the buffs.There is a way to do this; spend the 4000AS on the Kraken.

This is why the devs probably not only don't care about this issue, but are likely looking for a way to make buffs from the same hookpoint overwrite prior buffs from the same spot. The size of the ship is supposed to limit how many buffs we have.

[shores11]

Member-ranked guildies can no longer reveal a ship's hookpoints. This has the sad effect of limiting these characters to only those amenities that are currently placed, and they cannot get the buffs that are in storage. This causes a true class division in the game—the privileged, who have access to all guild amenities on a ship; and those who can only get the buffs that the privileged leave out for them. :(

It was stated in the last patch that what you want non-officers to do and was allowed to do was fixed. Only officers, successors and guild leaders can actually change the items on the kook points as it should be. If I am a guild leader and I am I would not want all members to randomly change buff shrines as they choose. I have a preference as to what buffs I want in the Cargo Hold and I prefer them not to be changed. I assign officers whom I trust to officer to make changes as needed as well after we have all agreed on what we want.

There are three solutions to your dilemma:

1 - Ask your guild leader to either promote you to officer or ask that there be some input from other guild members as to the buff shrines you would like to see on the ship.
2 - Move to a guild that more closely aligns with your preferences.
3 - Form your own guild and place buffs as you wish and also assign all of your members to change buffs as they desire with your blessing.

[golruul]

[...]This is about granting ALL guild members access to using ALL amenities in a controlled manner.

No, this is about you wanting the benefits of a bigger ship without actually buying the bigger ship.

A bigger ship is the solution to this problem, just as it was before the guild rework pass. The whole design point of bigger ships is to access more buffs.

Unfortunately there now exists a gamey mechanic that lets people (now limited to officers) get the benefit of bigger ships without actually getting them. You're angry/put-off/whatever because you no longer have access to this gamey mechanic. Turbine needs to plug this gamey mechanic, either by putting a timer on the hookpoints/amenities or by having a set "installation" cost each time an amenity is placed.

[Gremmlynn]

This type of change is needed to cover their tails when they monetize stuff this heavily. If the guild leader pays RL$ for shards and then fills the boat up with what they want, making it so that anyone can just come along and wipe it out / change it to something else is asking for a customer service nightmare. That extra layer of control, allowing guild leaders to choose who can/cant place/remove buffs helps alleviate some folks concerns when deciding to spend/not spend money.Well since anything that gets changed out just goes into storage and can be switched back, this mostly protects them from a bit of annoyance and loss of some time. The RL$ are safe.

The big thing this does is encourage guilds to buy bigger ships, rather than just cycling all the buffs through the hookpoints of the smaller ships.

[Tshober]

The big thing this does is encourage guilds to buy bigger ships, rather than just cycling all the buffs through the hookpoints of the smaller ships.

For my guild, the biggest thing this does is give us back some kind of control over our airship, beyond just asking everyone to pretty please refrain from doing whatever you like whenever you like.

It also does what you said too, but that is way, way secondary.

[Sam1313]

It would be cool if there was a list of buffs on the bar that would let members check off what buffs they wanted. Then they could just hit the bar and receive the buffs they want, rather than having an officer stand on the ship rotating buffs on a hookpoint. Like walk up to the Buff bar and it would display all the buffs the guild has to offer and the member could just check off what buffs they want to receive, hit the bar and go.

[Tscheuss]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone in this thread who is NOT an officer or guild leader? :)

[Thordicain]

Most of the Leaders and Officers have built their Chars to take advantage of the Buffs. I am starting to build my Chars around the Buffs now to take advantage of the new system.

[Uska]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone in this thread who is NOT an officer or guild leader? :)

I don't agree with you and yes in one guild I am an officer and another I am not not and I don't feel slighted about being restricted in the non-officer position as it should have less power.

[Sam1313]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone in this thread who is NOT an officer or guild leader? :)

Sorry I am a guild leader but I think if your a member and your contributing renown to the guild (helping it level) then you too should have a right to pick and choose what buffs you want.
I myself started my guild and had to go 20 levels before we got our first airship. It took a long time to get to the level we are at right now but in this time I have learned to run without any guild buffs. That's just me though.

[PermaBanned]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone in this thread who is NOT an officer or guild leader? :)

Not sure if I count as "in this thread" since I haven't commented since early on page 1, but no I'm not a leader or an officer. To recap my position, I'm fine with not having privileges as just a member. With zero power comes zero culpability. Our leader and a couple officers invested considerably in the ship & buffs we have; if things are out of whack in terms of amenity placement, it obviously wasn't me ;)

[Kipling]

Sorry if I wasn't more clear on my topic. I am fine with only guild leaders and officers making changes to the amenities. I do not want the anarchy of everyone being able to switch everything around will ye, nill ye. I do not want non-officers to have access to spending guild funds.

I want one small room able to be flagged by the guild leader as changeable (let this be the same room on all ships).
If the guild leader sets it as locked, it is no different than any other hookpoint.
If the guild leader sets it as unlocked, then that room's amenity can be exchanged by anyone for any other small amenity in the ship's storage.
Perhaps give the room its own hookpoint control.

I want the guild leader to have this option; it will still be her choice whether to use it.

This is not about total lockdown vs. total access.

This is about granting ALL guild members access to using ALL amenities in a controlled manner.

You should have opened with this, you would have had a warmer response. I like this idea, but your op and the responses to it combined to make it look like you were trying to get back the freeforall we had the first week of the update. :-)

[Ykt]

What we really need is a way to give individual members different abilities, or more ranks with different abilities (or customizable).

It kinda exists already but it's not enabled.

See the commands:
/guild ranks
/guild createrank
/guild changeranklevel
/guild changerankname
etc.

[Talonaise]

I like the idea of only officers being able to do this. It does give some weight to holding the office. It is easy to give officership out to people in the guild who have earned the trust of the guild leader. I don't see it as creating a huge class division to not be able to change the buffs. That is me, but we are all officers in my guild so it doesn't affect me either way.

I also think that rotating through the buffs seems kind of like a workaround to something and it doesn't feel like that is wai.

Overall I would vote for keeping the system as is.

[Thordicain]

I am a Guild Leader of a very Tiny Guild. All the members (2) are Officers and can change things as they need. On the other world I am on, I am a member or a very Large Guild with a very Large Airship. All Slots are filled even in the Hold.

[Dawnsblood]

It is intended that only guild Leaders and Officers be able to purchase and place amenities. If people feel strongly that this should be changed, let us know!

Please leave it restricted. We need a way to control who changes stuff. If I recruit a new member it is nice to have a way to restrict them from messing with stuff until we are fully comfortable with them.

[Tscheuss]

Not sure if I count as "in this thread" since I haven't commented since early on page 1, but no I'm not a leader or an officer. To recap my position, I'm fine with not having privileges as just a member. With zero power comes zero culpability. Our leader and a couple officers invested considerably in the ship & buffs we have; if things are out of whack in terms of amenity placement, it obviously wasn't me ;)

Of course you count; you're in here now. :)

[Tscheuss]

You should have opened with this, you would have had a warmer response. I like this idea, but your op and the responses to it combined to make it look like you were trying to get back the freeforall we had the first week of the update. :-)

Yeah, you're right. I was wondering whether to repost that to the OP or start a new thread with it. It seems to be getting ignored in the middle of the thread.

I copied it to the OP so that it can be easier to find. Thanks. :)

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Smaller close knit guilds can make all the members officers. Not all guilds are a handful of pals and we should not expect it to be thus. There should be a control mechanism for the amenities on the boat that are only accessible by guild leadership. What is the purpose of ranks in the guild if not for this kind of thing???

I think you missed which side of this discussion I'm on.

Anyone who's been in a guild with a bunch of drama, seen someone promoted to officer and then boot 90% of the guild, or had someone join for a day and raid the guild chest understands why the buffs shouldn't be accessable to every member.

[FranOhmsford]

I think you missed which side of this discussion I'm on.

Anyone who's been in a guild with a bunch of drama, seen someone promoted to officer and then boot 90% of the guild, or had someone join for a day and raid the guild chest understands why the buffs shouldn't be accessable to every member.

THIS! ^


Oh and to the person saying "buy a bigger ship"
1. Not every Guild is Lvl 100+
2. Stop charging us REAL MONEY!!!
3. I personally find the best thing about the new hookpoints is the Spirit Binder being on the ship - On my own ship on Cannith I placed the Banquet Hall next to the Orien Hookpoint with Banker, Auctioneer and Mailbox BUT on other servers where I'm in medium sized Lvl 80 ish Guilds I've noticed that none of them even placed these hookpoints!
Addendum: Why isn't there a General Vendor in either of these Hookpoints?

[Tscheuss]

I think you missed which side of this discussion I'm on.

Anyone who's been in a guild with a bunch of drama, seen someone promoted to officer and then boot 90% of the guild, or had someone join for a day and raid the guild chest understands why the buffs shouldn't be accessable to every member.

I would think that is why guild buffs should be accessible to every member. Why would you want to prevent a class of guildmates from using buffs?

[Tscheuss]

This is about bypassing the need to upgrade your ship for further access to more hookpoints where such access is a non-issue.

Your Guild leader can do what you want right now. Make everyone an Officer and designate X room where you can swap in and out the 40 amenities(minus the ones perm placed) one at a time so you can have all the buffs you want without the need to get a bigger ship. That is a whole heck of a lot of extra work for everyone in your Guild, whole lot of waiting for people to swap in and out buffs, whole lot of extra client lag swapping in and out those buffs, heck, that just a whole lot of extra aggravation you have placed on your guildmates, group/raid, and anyone else waiting on you or your guild members to do this.

You really think 5/11 other people are really going to want to wait for you to swap in/out all those buffs? You going to expect them to wait for all that?

Your going to want to get your Leader to allow a Large Hookpoint too in addition to a Small so you can swap those in and out too.

Easier thing to do would be to just upgrade your ship to avoid all that hassle and not have all those people wait for you.

It takes less than 4 minutes to cycle through all those buffs. Considering that they last for 4 hours and last through death, I don't think waiting will be much of an issue. :rolleyes:

[Ausdoerrt]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone in this thread who is NOT an officer or guild leader? :)

Myself. I'm just a lowly member :P


I would think that is why guild buffs should be accessible to every member. Why would you want to prevent a class of guildmates from using buffs?

Guild buffs ARE accessible to every member. But only those that the guild actually earned/placed. I'm not sure why this is even a point of contention.

[PaddyMaxson]

Genuine suggestion: Guild rank modification

Allow us to modify and add ranks. That way we can have privileged members who can change stuff like amenities but not to purchase using guild funds, or change MoTD and stuff.

[Gremmlynn]

No, this is about you wanting the benefits of a bigger ship without actually buying the bigger ship.

A bigger ship is the solution to this problem, just as it was before the guild rework pass. The whole design point of bigger ships is to access more buffs.

Unfortunately there now exists a gamey mechanic that lets people (now limited to officers) get the benefit of bigger ships without actually getting them. You're angry/put-off/whatever because you no longer have access to this gamey mechanic. Turbine needs to plug this gamey mechanic, either by putting a timer on the hookpoints/amenities or by having a set "installation" cost each time an amenity is placed.Better would be to add a hookpoint flag to the buffs so a new buff from the same hookpoint would replace a current buff a character has from the same location.

[Tscheuss]

Better would be to add a hookpoint flag to the buffs so a new buff from the same hookpoint would replace a current buff a character has from the same location.

I am so happy you are not a DDO dev. :p

[Gremmlynn]

I am so happy you are not a DDO dev. :pBecause I can actually figure out how to make things work the way the design of the system shows they would like them to work?

[Tscheuss]

Because I can actually figure out how to make things work the way the design of the system shows they would like them to work?

Are you claiming to have a copy of the requirements specifications? Without those, you are only guessing, and I suspect that guess is tainted with personal bias. :)

[Gremmlynn]

Are you claiming to have a copy of the requirements specifications? Without those, you are only guessing, and I suspect that guess is tainted with personal bias. :)I don't know. Bigger ships cost more money or require a higher guild level and only offer more hookpoints. Seems pretty obvious to me what the intent was. 4000AS might be worth it to have all the buffs, but not so much just to have them all on the buff bar.

Though I will admit to personal bias. As, if I were designing the system, I would do whatever I could to keep players from cheesing around the limitations I put in.

[Gauthaag]

so u re unable to become officer and thus asking for general solution? reminds all those threads "merge servers, cause i m so antisocial i cant find friends":)

[Grimlock]

Hodor!

[Tom.JonesJr]

Are we all missing the Dragon in the closet. What happens when these AS amenities start to drop in the quests and you are not a guild leader. Will the guild automatically be granted this amenity or will a person be able to store them till they join a guild and become a leader and they have control over there placement. If I have an AS amenity drop that would help my toon and I was not a leader and all the hook points on my ship where filled would I give up this item that I know will cost me AS if I leave this guild and start my own.

[Chai]

Are you claiming to have a copy of the requirements specifications? Without those, you are only guessing, and I suspect that guess is tainted with personal bias. :)

Not really a personal bias to see how a business who is monetizing this aspect of the game is going to design this in order to direct people to spend money on it rather than be able to work around having to do so. Its less like guessing and more like conjecture. There may not be hard spreadsheet evidence to back it up in the hands of the public, but its pretty obvious why they would design it that way.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I would think that is why guild buffs should be accessible to every member. Why would you want to prevent a class of guildmates from using buffs?

I don't even..

No one is suggesting that regular members shouldn't be able to use the buffs.

I'm firmly saying that only officers and leaders should be able to place or swap those buffs. If a guild member has an issue with that mechanic, they are completely free to either communicate with their guild leadership or leave and start their own guild.

If any member was allowed to do that you'd see guilds close their doors to new members just to prevent griefing.

[Psiandron]

Are we all missing the Dragon in the closet. What happens when these AS amenities start to drop in the quests and you are not a guild leader. Will the guild automatically be granted this amenity or will a person be able to store them till they join a guild and become a leader and they have control over there placement. If I have an AS amenity drop that would help my toon and I was not a leader and all the hook points on my ship where filled would I give up this item that I know will cost me AS if I leave this guild and start my own.


I have no idea whether any of this could create a problem with the quest reward mechanic, but I would very much like to know.

Good question Tom, but I guess "it's not unusual.". ;D

[Nekronion]

I don't know. Bigger ships cost more money or require a higher guild level and only offer more hookpoints. Seems pretty obvious to me what the intent was. 4000AS might be worth it to have all the buffs, but not so much just to have them all on the buff bar.

Though I will admit to personal bias. As, if I were designing the system, I would do whatever I could to keep players from cheesing around the limitations I put in.

Exactly. Of course I understand, people want to get all good things for free. But if I were a Dev, I would just erase all guild buffs on a character whenever he uses the buff bar and grant the current buffs afterwards. Otherwise you would never need to buy a larger ship than the smallest, just the amenities and swap them around. Seems like an exploit to me.

[Tshober]

. If I have an AS amenity drop that would help my toon and I was not a leader and all the hook points on my ship where filled would I give up this item that I know will cost me AS if I leave this guild and start my own.

I guess that depends on whether you plan to start your own guild or not. Don't really see it as an issue, in any case.

[Tshober]

I'm firmly saying that only officers and leaders should be able to place or swap those buffs. If a guild member has an issue with that mechanic, they are completely free to either communicate with their guild leadership or leave and start their own guild.

If any member was allowed to do that you'd see guilds close their doors to new members just to prevent griefing.

Exactly this. My guild has been open to inviting new players for many years but if every member we invite can rearrange our ship buffs anytime they feel like it, then we would have to reconsider whether we are willing to invite any new members at all.

[Kalimah]

Are we all missing the Dragon in the closet. What happens when these AS amenities start to drop in the quests and you are not a guild leader. Will the guild automatically be granted this amenity or will a person be able to store them till they join a guild and become a leader and they have control over there placement. If I have an AS amenity drop that would help my toon and I was not a leader and all the hook points on my ship where filled would I give up this item that I know will cost me AS if I leave this guild and start my own.

Are they bound? Can they be placed in the guild chest? Can you trade them?

I don't see why they would be bound.

[golruul]

[...]
Oh and to the person saying "buy a bigger ship"
1. Not every Guild is Lvl 100+
2. Stop charging us REAL MONEY!!!
[...]

I'm the one saying buy a bigger ship. I'm saying that because the design of ships (specifically, the progression to larger ones) is the intended solution to the problem of wanting more buffs. This was the solution before the guild rework pass and still is the solution. If you don't like that and want to argue against it, then by all means make a topic to discuss that. This topic is about someone wanting the ability to exploit the gamey mechanic of getting the benefits of larger ships without actually getting the larger ships.

Regarding your points, every guild not being level 100+ is irrelevant. I'm in a two person guild that's level 77 now and our ship is fine -- we don't use that gamey mechanic.

Also, you don't need to spend real money on ships. It took my two-person guild about two years to get where we are now. You need to put time into your guild to advance it. If you don't want to put the time into it, one of the other alternatives is spending real money. A third option is to sell items for astral shards and use those, but this requires time.

I have no sympathy for entitlement mentalities that refuse to put the time and/or money into getting what they want.

[Tshober]

Are they bound? Can they be placed in the guild chest? Can you trade them?

I don't see why they would be bound.

I don't see it as a problem, either way. In the absolute worst case, if a non-officer has a bound amenity that they are willing to give to the guild, then the guild leader can just promote them to officer long enough for them to give the guild the amenity and then the leader can demote them back to member. No fuss, no muss, no problem.

As a guild leader, I would actually prefer if they were bound because it eliminates the temptation for guild members to sell them to the highest bidder and makes it more likely they will share them with their guild. But from a guild member's perspective, having them bound makes any amenity that your guild already has worthless, unless you plan to start your own guild someday.

[Chai]

I'm the one saying buy a bigger ship. I'm saying that because the design of ships (specifically, the progression to larger ones) is the intended solution to the problem of wanting more buffs. This was the solution before the guild rework pass and still is the solution. If you don't like that and want to argue against it, then by all means make a topic to discuss that. This topic is about someone wanting the ability to exploit the gamey mechanic of getting the benefits of larger ships without actually getting the larger ships.

Regarding your points, every guild not being level 100+ is irrelevant. I'm in a two person guild that's level 77 now and our ship is fine -- we don't use that gamey mechanic.

Also, you don't need to spend real money on ships. It took my two-person guild about two years to get where we are now. You need to put time into your guild to advance it. If you don't want to put the time into it, one of the other alternatives is spending real money. A third option is to sell items for astral shards and use those, but this requires time.

I have no sympathy for entitlement mentalities that refuse to put the time and/or money into getting what they want.

Some already put in years of time, and players are telling them to essentially pay money if they want more buffs.

The irony is some of the folks who supported monetization of character power aspects hand over fist and denied they would ever balance anything around this, are some of the staunchest protestors of this update. Most justified it by saying it doesnt affect them, but here it seems they found something that does affect them - their guilds they worked on over the years.

I dont think its entitlement based mentality to ask to keep the same buffs we used to have, then charge for newer ones if they want. I like the newer ones too, but if they are going to make some stuff liek XP shrines AS only which we used to be able to pay plat for, I dont see how its entitlement mentality to ask for that to remain how it was.

[Tscheuss]

I don't even..

No one is suggesting that regular members shouldn't be able to use the buffs.

I'm firmly saying that only officers and leaders should be able to place or swap those buffs. If a guild member has an issue with that mechanic, they are completely free to either communicate with their guild leadership or leave and start their own guild.

If any member was allowed to do that you'd see guilds close their doors to new members just to prevent griefing.

I think you are missing the point, and it is my fault for not being more precise in my OP. Please read the addition to the OP to see that the change I want does not facilitate grief.

[Tscheuss]

Exactly this. My guild has been open to inviting new players for many years but if every member we invite can rearrange our ship buffs anytime they feel like it, then we would have to reconsider whether we are willing to invite any new members at all.

This is not what I am advocating, and I have made this clear. Can you please get off the all-or-nothing fixation already?

[Tscheuss]

I don't see it as a problem, either way. In the absolute worst case, if a non-officer has a bound amenity that they are willing to give to the guild, then the guild leader can just promote them to officer long enough for them to give the guild the amenity and then the leader can demote them back to member. No fuss, no muss, no problem. As a guild leader, I would actually prefer if they were bound because it eliminates the temptation for guild members to sell them to the highest bidder and makes it more likely they will share them with their guild.

That sounds a bit selfish. You would prefer members of your guild can give amenities to only your guild or not use them at all? What about duplicates? Shouldn't people be able to sell the extras to members of other guilds? What about someone who runs a LOT of quests? When they stockpile a bunch of these (hypothetical) bound amenities, what is to stop them from dropping your guild and joining another to pass on the amenities? Potentially, your desire for these chest drops to be bound can cost you members and renown. It would be better if (1) they were unbound or (2) collecting them from the chest automatically added them to the guild. Let them be sold on AH or traded, or limit the swapping to in-chest.

[Captain_Wizbang]

collecting them from the chest automatically added them to the guild.

This is the best solution IMO

[Tshober]

That sounds a bit selfish. You would prefer members of your guild can give amenities to only your guild or not use them at all? What about duplicates? Shouldn't people be able to sell the extras to members of other guilds? What about someone who runs a LOT of quests? When they stockpile a bunch of these (hypothetical) bound amenities, what is to stop them from dropping your guild and joining another to pass on the amenities? Potentially, your desire for these chest drops to be bound can cost you members and renown. It would be better if (1) they were unbound or (2) collecting them from the chest automatically added them to the guild. Let them be sold on AH or traded, or limit the swapping to in-chest.

You're right, it is a little bit selfish, that's why I prefaced it with "as a guild leader". But, IMO, it is far less selfish than someone who gets an amenity drop that his/her guild needs and instead of giving it to their guild so all their guild-mates can benefit from it, they instead sell it to some other guild on the auction house.

Of course nothing is to stop a guild member from stockpiling amenity drops and eventually starting their own guild. If someone in my guild does that then I will wish them the best of luck with it. I know how hard it is to run a successful guild and anyone who wants to give it a shot has my respect. I very much like your option (2), by the way.

[Tscheuss]

You're right, it is a little bit selfish, that's why I prefaced it with "as a guild leader". But, IMO, it is far less selfish than someone who gets an amenity drop that his/her guild needs and instead of giving it to their guild so all their guild-mates can benefit from it, they instead sell it to some other guild on the auction house.

Of course nothing is to stop a guild member from stockpiling amenity drops and eventually starting their own guild. If someone in my guild does that then I will wish them the best of luck with it. I know how hard it is to run a successful guild and anyone who wants to give it a shot has my respect. I very much like your option (2), by the way.

I thought of a better version of option (2). Conditional: If amenity NOT in guild then place in guild storage, else unbound item in character inventory.

Good for the guild; good for the economy. :D

How tough that would be to code, on the other hand, I don't know.

[FranOhmsford]

I'm the one saying buy a bigger ship. I'm saying that because the design of ships (specifically, the progression to larger ones) is the intended solution to the problem of wanting more buffs. This was the solution before the guild rework pass and still is the solution. If you don't like that and want to argue against it, then by all means make a topic to discuss that. This topic is about someone wanting the ability to exploit the gamey mechanic of getting the benefits of larger ships without actually getting the larger ships.

Regarding your points, every guild not being level 100+ is irrelevant. I'm in a two person guild that's level 77 now and our ship is fine -- we don't use that gamey mechanic.

Also, you don't need to spend real money on ships. It took my two-person guild about two years to get where we are now. You need to put time into your guild to advance it. If you don't want to put the time into it, one of the other alternatives is spending real money. A third option is to sell items for astral shards and use those, but this requires time.

I have no sympathy for entitlement mentalities that refuse to put the time and/or money into getting what they want.

I'm going to let Chai handle this one...



Some already put in years of time, and players are telling them to essentially pay money if they want more buffs.
I dont think its entitlement based mentality to ask to keep the same buffs we used to have, then charge for newer ones if they want. I like the newer ones too, but if they are going to make some stuff liek XP shrines AS only which we used to be able to pay plat for, I dont see how its entitlement mentality to ask for that to remain how it was.

On the other hand...


The irony is some of the folks who supported monetization of character power aspects hand over fist and denied they would ever balance anything around this, are some of the staunchest protestors of this update. Most justified it by saying it doesnt affect them, but here it seems they found something that does affect them - their guilds they worked on over the years.

WT?


I've been leader of my own guild since the first week I began playing DDO back in mid 2010 - In four years that Guild has reached Lvl 61!
It will NEVER see Lvl 150!
It's unlikely to see Lvl 100 before 2020!

I was by no means agreeing with Tscheuss {I don't think I ever have!} - I'm quite happy for higher level guilds to have buffs that mine does not!
However I take offense at attitudes like yours...Golruul. And I intensely dislike being told to Spend REAL Money {lol at Plat costs!} to buy a Bigger Ship! And yes AS are REAL Money - I don't have 5000 Dragonscales to sell, I don't play EE raids all day every day!
Your way of playing the game SHOULD NOT be the only playstyle catered to by the Devs!

P.S. I'm VIP and have been for 3 Years!
I'd bought pretty much EVERY pack available at that time for my main account and the only reason I don't own the rest is because as a VIP I cannot buy packs!
I put 20 pounds into DDO virtually every week on top of my VIP and am not averse to spending Real Money on this game!
HOWEVER...
I baulk at having the choice taken away from me!

When a Lvl 16 Guild - One Character running 3BC Heroic Saga with a Renown Pot will get this in an hour! - Can have a Bigger Ship and more buffs than my own Lvl 61 Guild UNLESS I spend REAL MONEY I have an issue!

I will never be able to afford 2000 AS never mind 4000!
I am now stuck with having to come up with 1.8 MILLION Plat before hitting Lvl 70!
And I'll still be 16 Hold Rooms and 5 State Rooms behind a Lvl 16 Guild owned by someone who can afford 4000 AS!

Well there's no point me attempting to recruit any more - Now any brand new Guild can significantly outstrip the one I've spent FOUR YEARS Building up!

[Tscheuss]

I'm going to let Chai handle this one...




On the other hand...



WT?


I've been leader of my own guild since the first week I began playing DDO back in mid 2010 - In four years that Guild has reached Lvl 61!
It will NEVER see Lvl 150!
It's unlikely to see Lvl 100 before 2020!

I was by no means agreeing with Tscheuss {I don't think I ever have!} - I'm quite happy for higher level guilds to have buffs that mine does not!
However I take offense at attitudes like yours...Golruul. And I intensely dislike being told to Spend REAL Money {lol at Plat costs!} to buy a Bigger Ship! And yes AS are REAL Money - I don't have 5000 Dragonscales to sell, I don't play EE raids all day every day!
Your way of playing the game SHOULD NOT be the only playstyle catered to by the Devs!

P.S. I'm VIP and have been for 3 Years!
I'd bought pretty much EVERY pack available at that time for my main account and the only reason I don't own the rest is because as a VIP I cannot buy packs!
I put 20 pounds into DDO virtually every week on top of my VIP and am not averse to spending Real Money on this game!
HOWEVER...
I baulk at having the choice taken away from me!

When a Lvl 16 Guild - One Character running 3BC Heroic Saga with a Renown Pot will get this in an hour! - Can have a Bigger Ship and more buffs than my own Lvl 61 Guild UNLESS I spend REAL MONEY I have an issue!

I will never be able to afford 2000 AS never mind 4000!
I am now stuck with having to come up with 1.8 MILLION Plat before hitting Lvl 70!
And I'll still be 16 Hold Rooms and 5 State Rooms behind a Lvl 16 Guild owned by someone who can afford 4000 AS!

Well there's no point me attempting to recruit any more - Now any brand new Guild can significantly outstrip the one I've spent FOUR YEARS Building up!

Since amenities have guild level requirements, that level 16 guild would have some good echoes on that 4000 AS ship. :D

[Powskier]

low lvl guilds cant useall the amenities yet..there r min lvls...so kinda dumb to buy the biggest ship at low guild lvl anyway

[Standal]

As a guild leader with a membership that is very guild oriented, I strongly prefer that buffs be unbound. If one of our members pulls a shard amenity I have high confidence that they will donate it to the guild. If it's a duplicate I would love for them to sell it for shards and donate it to the guild, but it's their loot. Their choice either way.

[Talonaise]

It seems your main issue is creating differences in the levels within a guild. Perhaps not on all issues (like recruitment) however you don't think it is fair that some people have some powers such as placing buffs - and others do not. Your responses seem this way to me because of your references to class. Perhaps you need to instead consider the guild you are in? Each guild decides how to structure themselves, some have very few officers and many members, some lots of officers with few members, and some (like the guild I am in) has all officers. Perhaps you would be happier in a guild that treated all its members equally? Honestly when we created this guild, we decided that we didn't want to invite anyone into guild we were not comfortable keeping as an officer. So, everyone has the powers you wish. Ultimately, I do think that it is not working as intended, especially since they would make more money on the sale of larger boats. By keeping it as is it allows the guild to decide on a guild by guild basis what they want to allow. That seems fair.

Now, as to the -- get a bigger boat-- mentality. I get that it seems to be a trite answer, but it is nice to have things that can be earned through a guild working together. With the small guild bonus and saga bonus, even a small guild can earn levels at a decent rate. If you are willing to buy and drink renown pots -- that goes even faster. However it does mean you have to set that as a shared goal in the guild and get everyone to work toward it. I have seen this coordination work with both small and large guilds. On the plus side, in a game where content comes out fairly infrequently, it does give the guilds a purpose and stuff to do.

[Tscheuss]

It seems your main issue is creating differences in the levels within a guild. Perhaps not on all issues (like recruitment) however you don't think it is fair that some people have some powers such as placing buffs - and others do not. Your responses seem this way to me because of your references to class. Perhaps you need to instead consider the guild you are in? Each guild decides how to structure themselves, some have very few officers and many members, some lots of officers with few members, and some (like the guild I am in) has all officers. Perhaps you would be happier in a guild that treated all its members equally? Honestly when we created this guild, we decided that we didn't want to invite anyone into guild we were not comfortable keeping as an officer. So, everyone has the powers you wish. Ultimately, I do think that it is not working as intended, especially since they would make more money on the sale of larger boats. By keeping it as is it allows the guild to decide on a guild by guild basis what they want to allow. That seems fair.

Now, as to the -- get a bigger boat-- mentality. I get that it seems to be a trite answer, but it is nice to have things that can be earned through a guild working together. With the small guild bonus and saga bonus, even a small guild can earn levels at a decent rate. If you are willing to buy and drink renown pots -- that goes even faster. However it does mean you have to set that as a shared goal in the guild and get everyone to work toward it. I have seen this coordination work with both small and large guilds. On the plus side, in a game where content comes out fairly infrequently, it does give the guilds a purpose and stuff to do.

There must be a balance between security and accessibility. I feel that giving the guild leader the option to lock down amenity locations and the option to lock down or open one small room for cycling by all would bring us closer to that balance. The decision would still lie with the individual guilds without requiring them to alter their guild structure. :)

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I think you are missing the point, and it is my fault for not being more precise in my OP. Please read the addition to the OP to see that the change I want does not facilitate grief.

So- if I got this right- you're talking about having more buffs than room to place them, so you want a specific room for members to swap them out?

I guess, but that's still super impractical, especially since we have a buff bar now (and also, they are just buffs). I've got the impression that a bunch of people think that because the devs claim they'll drop in chests that they'll drop all over. I suspect the drop rate will be like anything else in the store: closer to zero than one percent.

I dunno, it's still not something I'd get behind.

[Tscheuss]

So- if I got this right- you're talking about having more buffs than room to place them, so you want a specific room for members to swap them out?

I guess, but that's still super impractical, especially since we have a buff bar now (and also, they are just buffs). I've got the impression that a bunch of people think that because the devs claim they'll drop in chests that they'll drop all over. I suspect the drop rate will be like anything else in the store: closer to zero than one percent.

I dunno, it's still not something I'd get behind.

One guild where I am an officer has about a page of buffs in storage. We also have a wide variety of classes and builds. It is no secret that some buffs are valued by certain builds and deemed worthless by others. Assume a non-officer wants a buff that her guild does not yet own. She has the personal funds to buy it for the guild. It would be nice if she had one room where she could go to buy and place the new amenity and use it. Let every other hookpoint stay locked down with the arrangement deemed best by the guild leader (and/or officers), but let the members have the one room for swapping should their guild leader so flag it. :)

[Psiandron]

One guild where I am an officer has about a page of buffs in storage. We also have a wide variety of classes and builds. It is no secret that some buffs are valued by certain builds and deemed worthless by others. Assume a non-officer wants a buff that her guild does not yet own. She has the personal funds to buy it for the guild. It would be nice if she had one room where she could go to buy and place the new amenity and use it. Let every other hookpoint stay locked down with the arrangement deemed best by the guild leader (and/or officers), but let the members have the one room for swapping should their guild leader so flag it. :)

K, I'm in a couple different guilds. One of them is pretty big. There are a couple hundred active members. We're not really at a highpoint in member activity just now, but it still isn't an oddity to see 20 people in-game at once. Doesn't the potential for conflict seem rather high in such a case with one or more rooms up for grabs the way you are talking? I suppose you'll answer that the guild leader need not make such a room available. However, might that not then mean he/she could still have to deal with members asking for such a room and even getting upset if they were refused. Keep in mind that a lot of such interaction is probably going to take place in guild-chat and tells, not on the guild forums as might be best. I don't see it being a good thing to possibly open up the guild leader and the guild as whole even to a lot of frustrating arguments.

Have you always been in a guild that had every buff available?
Many guilds have had to and still do make choices between the different options available to them. In my experience, the officers and the guild-leader will generally try to make choices based on what benefits most of the members playing. It's never been 100% effective, but I've seen it generally work out. Why should things be any different now?

Finally, when I, or many other people get their buffs, they are not going to want to take the time to see what the set-up is. They might even be in a hurry to get to a quest/raid. If you get what you want, they'll have to choose to either go below decks and check the layout of one or more rooms and adjust as necessary, or spin the wheel of fortune and go with what they get. To me, that just seems to emasculate the whole one-button buff bar concept.

I just think that there could be a lot of problems arise from what you are asking for, more than you are considering at any rate.

[Tscheuss]

K, I'm in a couple different guilds. One of them is pretty big. There are a couple hundred active members. We're not really at a highpoint in member activity just now, but it still isn't an oddity to see 20 people in-game at once. Doesn't the potential for conflict seem rather high in such a case with one or more rooms up for grabs the way you are talking? I suppose you'll answer that the guild leader need not make such a room available. However, might that not then mean he/she could still have to deal with members asking for such a room and even getting upset if they were refused. Keep in mind that a lot of such interaction is probably going to take place in guild-chat and tells, not on the guild forums as might be best. I don't see it being a good thing to possibly open up the guild leader and the guild as whole even to a lot of frustrating arguments.
Internal guild discussions happened before this update, and they will continue to occur. I believe it would be nice for them to have this option so they can decide for themselves.


Have you always been in a guild that had every buff available?
Until this update/patch, I (and everyone else) have had access to every buff the guild had.


Many guilds have had to and still do make choices between the different options available to them. In my experience, the officers and the guild-leader will generally try to make choices based on what benefits most of the members playing. It's never been 100% effective, but I've seen it generally work out. Why should things be any different now?

Things should be different because the amenity system is different. Guild leaders and officers will still make such choices, but the options from which they choose have changed. The new system has permanent amenities that can be stored, so it is possible to have more amenities than the ship has rooms.


Finally, when I, or many other people get their buffs, they are not going to want to take the time to see what the set-up is. They might even be in a hurry to get to a quest/raid. If you get what you want, they'll have to choose to either go below decks and check the layout of one or more rooms and adjust as necessary, or spin the wheel of fortune and go with what they get. To me, that just seems to emasculate the whole one-button buff bar concept.

The one button buff will be fine for all but one room under my proposal. All guild members will know what the standing buffs are and whether they need/want to get a stored buff. The optional cycling room should be the same one small room whichever ship you are on, so there is no endless searching of the ship to find it. If it is enabled, it takes less than 4 minutes to cycle through all stored buffs. This is an insignificant amount of time for buffs that last from 3 to 5 hours. For groups that can't wait that 4 minutes, they probably don't have time to run to the ship for buffs, anyway. :)


I just think that there could be a lot of problems arise from what you are asking for, more than you are considering at any rate.

I have considered this option from quite a few angles, but mostly for security v. accessibility. I believe the new system comes with new possibilities, and I want the best options for the guilds. :)

[Talonaise]

I honestly would love to see a Dev post on this thread, my gut tells me that "cycling through buffs" is not WAI, and will be fixed. Thus whatever solutions are brought up will be moot.

[Tscheuss]

I honestly would love to see a Dev post on this thread, my gut tells me that "cycling through buffs" is not WAI, and will be fixed. Thus whatever solutions are brought up will be moot.

Cordovan said to tell them what we want. I doubt there is enough support on my side to get the change I want, but then those against weren't exactly arguing against what I want. My fault for not being more clear in the beginning.

Either way, Cordovan did not indicate that cycling was a problem.

[Talonaise]

Cordovan said to tell them what we want. I doubt there is enough support on my side to get the change I want, but then those against weren't exactly arguing against what I want. My fault for not being more clear in the beginning.

Either way, Cordovan did not indicate that cycling was a problem.

He only spoke on the ranks that should be able to move them, he really didn't comment on the cycling issue at all right or wrong.

[Krelar]

Until this update/patch, I (and everyone else) have had access to every buff the guild had.


Actually you had access to everything that the guild had placed on the ship. It was quite possible to not have everything your guild had access to on your ship.

This is still the case now it's just more obvious what is not already there, no real change.

[Tshober]

Actually you had access to everything that the guild had placed on the ship. It was quite possible to not have everything your guild had access to on your ship.

This is still the case now it's just more obvious what is not already there, no real change.

When Tscheuss said everyone has had access to everything until the recent patch, I am pretty sure that was referring to the 6 day period between Update 22 and patch 22.1, not to the 6 year-ish period that airships existed in DDO prior to update 22.

[Tscheuss]

Actually you had access to everything that the guild had placed on the ship. It was quite possible to not have everything your guild had access to on your ship.

This is still the case now it's just more obvious what is not already there, no real change.


When Tscheuss said everyone has had access to everything until the recent patch, I am pretty sure that was referring to the 6 day period between Update 22 and patch 22.1, not to the 6 year-ish period that airships existed in DDO prior to update 22.

Prior to U22, everyone in a guild had access to every buff the guild had, and they also had access to every buff a guild qualified for if there was an empty hookpoint on which to place it. Officers and guild leaders also had the ability to replace a buff, but that also meant that the buff being replaced was destroyed. A guild could not rent more amenities than they had hookpoints to place them.

Now, every officer and guild leader has access to every buff a guild owns (placed and in storage), but non-officers do not have access to the buffs in storage. Non-officers can no longer buy buffs and place them on empty hookpoints like they could under the old system; however, they can add to the guild funds and request that a given buff be purchased. Changing an amenity no longer means it will be destroyed; it is just swapped into storage. A guild can now buy more amenities than they have hookpoints.

The first week of Update 22 was too insecure with respect to everyone's access to guild funds and to all hookpoints, but the current status is too secure. I just want one room made optional for swapping. This way, the guild leader has the security of a consistent layout, and members (at GL's discretion) have access to all buffs a guild possesses. Win-win. :)

[goodspeed]

I don't think a member should even need to buy the stuff. Should never run out unless the leadership/whatever went awol into limbo and left everything to rot.