this saga can only be played once

[Nyata]

okay not sure if this is working as intended or a bug, so I am dropping it here to try and find out.

after completing the new 3bc/sentinel saga and trying to pick it up again i get "this heroic CR4-7 saga can only be played once" and the option to close the window, nothing else. of course, if it is intended the info might have been in the dialog when I picked it up... but ... I admit I never really read those. :)

any information apreciated!

[Seikojin]

To me, it could make sense to make sagas a one time thing/tr. However, if they do, I hope they bump up the reward options.

Like if you do normal, you get old elite choices.

If you get hard, two picks from the elite choices.

If you do elite, you get 3 choices.

[Psiandron]

To me, it could make sense to make sagas a one time thing/tr. However, if they do, I hope they bump up the reward options.

Like if you do normal, you get old elite choices.

If you get hard, two picks from the elite choices.

If you do elite, you get 3 choices.


I like the cut of your jib, but no.

A friend and I banged through the 3BC heroic saga on elite right after they turned them back on. True Elite reward was just the same elite choice. Appeared to be a one shot per life deal. I assume it's WAI, but I would like confirmation please.

Also, is this true of all sagas now? Or, all heroic sagas?

Thanks in advance for any info. :)

[Ivan_Milic]

To me, it could make sense to make sagas a one time thing/tr. However, if they do, I hope they bump up the reward options.

Like if you do normal, you get old elite choices.

If you get hard, two picks from the elite choices.

If you do elite, you get 3 choices.

This would kill etr for me.

[Seikojin]

This would kill etr for me.

Only because you would farm turn ins for speed gaining to lvl 22? What is wrong with running quests?

[Cordovan]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

[oradafu]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

If players had been told this about sagas from the beginning, there would have been alot less enthusiasm about them.

In fact, we know this wasn't the original intent of sagas since they were suppose to be another source of rewards for players, since players were complaining about the lack of various ways of gain rewards, such as Guild Renown (which still hasn't had more sources to farm since Devs said it was on their to-do list way back before MOTU and the House C Challenges that became a loggerhead for many players).

[Seikojin]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

Ahhh, that explains something. :D Thanks!

[madmaxhunter]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

We could repeat heroic sagas before they were shut down. Sweet, so a few guilds farm it to death and hit unreasonable levels and the rest of us who would just run them a few times are left in the lurch. Great job Turbine.

BTW, when will I get the Saga turn-ins for the two lives I ran while it was down? You said we would get credit for them once it was back (yeah, this is sarcasm).

[Seikojin]

If players had been told this about sagas from the beginning, there would have been alot less enthusiasm about them.

In fact, we know this wasn't the original intent of sagas since they were suppose to be another source of rewards for players, since players were complaining about the lack of various ways of gain rewards, such as Guild Renown (which still hasn't had more sources to farm since Devs said it was on their to-do list way back before MOTU and the House C Challenges that became a loggerhead for many players).

And so they farmed very easy heroic sagas at level cap and milked free exp.

[Gremmlynn]

We could repeat heroic sagas before they were shut down. Sweet, so a few guilds farm it to death and hit unreasonable levels and the rest of us who would just run them a few times are left in the lurch. Great job Turbine.I don't see the lurch anyone is left in.

What I see is that a few guilds may have farmed them to death and pointed out a rather obvious hole in the mechanic that was then filled.

[ForgettableNPC]

Well, in a way, it's somewhat fitting, considering (by my own experiences, not anyone else's) that whenever I completed the Gianthold Saga at-level, the XP earned from the quests + saga was enough to put me about lv 17, which is pretty much outside the range of Gianthold Quests (Based on Bravery Bonus system and yadda yadda yadda) and encouraged me to take on other quest chains like Harbinger of Madness Chain.

I guess what I'm trying to argue is that making Heroic Sagas unrepeatable encourages players to play additional content instead of repeating the same things over and over and over again.

I think that's what I'm trying to argue.

I think.

[Vellrad]

It sucks hard.

I liked to zerg through heroic shadowfail saga on epic reincarnation.

[madmaxhunter]

I don't see the lurch anyone is left in.

What I see is that a few guilds may have farmed them to death and pointed out a rather obvious hole in the mechanic that was then filled.

Simple, because it was a nice renown boost. For now I've given up on finding new guild mates. Why would anyone join a guild that is level 85 when they can join a mega guild that's level 185 and has every amenity?

[Psiandron]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.


Cool, thanks for the response.

If it was that way before, I didn't notice. I figured it was WAI though. Makes sense really. No biggie.

[Nyata]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

a bit of a bummer, but thanks for the reply. I do see the point of restricting sagas cause the rewards are great and yes, people took advantage. guess some downgrade of rewards by level curve would do the same trick, but that would just be another thing to confuse people (I have no clue how often I explained to people already how bravery bronus actually works, for example... and sadly, most of them weren't newbies) and harder to code and make spoof proof.

[Nyata]

Simple, because it was a nice renown boost. For now I've given up on finding new guild mates. Why would anyone join a guild that is level 85 when they can join a mega guild that's level 185 and has every amenity?

on one server I play my guild is level45ish, on the other... I am not sure.. 80ish? few people in both, but we all know and talk to each other, and NOTHING would make me 'trade up' into a level185 guild. and yes, I'd still rather join a small 'family guild' than a giant one where people don't even know each other. But that's me ;)

[bbqzor]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

A) This is the sort of change which should definitely make the patch notes... the impact to players is beyond obvious. At this point, its NECESSARY for you to review how you assemble and choose what information to release. I would suggest perhaps consulting your players over what they feel is important to know, because its drastically different from your current opinions. Your notes are insufficient, incorrect, and incomplete.

B) This is a terrible change. Id use stronger words, but forums. You get first time XP on each difficulty, you should get at least 3 completions per life. And that doesnt even touch the fact that the way quest xp repetition/decay/etc works now actively encourages you to repeat content provided its on different days. Just terrible. If your goal is to kill heroic even further, quest objective complete.

[Enoach]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

While I can understand part of the reasoning behind this, I will say that I am disappointed this had to be done this way instead of using a different solution that would scale the rewards on heroic based on the level of the character turning in the saga reward.

As has been mentioned there are a few of the Sagas that fit in for level 20 characters that for me during the saga shut down time has been a source of fun - such as the Stormhorns and Wheloon areas. Wish we could have had a better compromise.

[Qhualor]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

is there a reason for this or should we assume the worst why its only once per life?

[Portalcat]

This is a new and unannounced change, but it kind of makes sense given that, by far, the best way to farm guild renown was to have a party repeatedly zerg the heroic GH saga.


Of course, you could also just lower the renown award for heroic sagas.

[nomaddog]

Simple, because it was a nice renown boost. For now I've given up on finding new guild mates. Why would anyone join a guild that is level 85 when they can join a mega guild that's level 185 and has every amenity?

Because for some it's about the social aspect, not all the new shinies.

[Grosbeak07]

is there a reason for this or should we assume the worst why its only once per life?

The reason (as I understand it) was some guilds were simply farming the heroic ones at level cap and milking the renown and xp rewards.

I see why they did it, but it's also a big who cares.

[Oxarhamar]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

Say bye bye to your guild renown pot sales.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

I do believe this is very much what you would call a "Change".

I'm don't know where I stand on it, but you should expect some backlash, especially since this comes a surprise to many.

Additionally, I do not see any flavorful rational as to why heroic sagas are only good 1 time, but epic multiple times.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Simple, because it was a nice renown boost. For now I've given up on finding new guild mates. Why would anyone join a guild that is level 85 when they can join a mega guild that's level 185 and has every amenity?

Join?... um don't know. Stay in one? Because they like it and it has a better name.

Speaking for myself here.

[Stoner81]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

Yet another change not mentioned in any release notes whatsoever. This is utter BS quite frankly! Sagas have been repeatable since they were introduced with no mention that the above was the case the whole thing stinks!

Stoner81.

[Lifespawn]

Yet another change not mentioned in any release notes whatsoever. This is utter BS quite frankly! Sagas have been repeatable since they were introduced with no mention that the above was the case the whole thing stinks!

Stoner81.

would everyone be fine with a level restriction on them them lvl 20+ can't turn them in?

[Ivan_Milic]

would everyone be fine with a level restriction on them them lvl 20+ can't turn them in?

Why put any restriction?
IF you are above lvl 20 you dont get any xp for those quests you do.
While doing ee sagas you get xp and you get gr, plus ee gear.

[Ivan_Milic]

Only because you would farm turn ins for speed gaining to lvl 22? What is wrong with running quests?

Because when you run them 100 times they tend to get boring.
Did you do even 1 etr?

[Ivan_Milic]

This is a new and unannounced change, but it kind of makes sense given that, by far, the best way to farm guild renown was to have a party repeatedly zerg the heroic GH saga.


Of course, you could also just lower the renown award for heroic sagas.

This is what I find stupid.
Why in the bloody hell does heroic saga gives as much gr as ee saga?
Does that make any sense?
Turbine just loves making problems.

[B0ltdrag0n]

And so they farmed very easy heroic sagas at level cap and milked free exp.

Man it must feel great to spend 2+ hours grinding stuff you get no xp for just to get the equivilant of one - three epic normal quests. Where do I sign up for this wonderful use of my time?

[B0ltdrag0n]

This is a new and unannounced change, but it kind of makes sense given that, by far, the best way to farm guild renown was to have a party repeatedly zerg the heroic GH saga.


Of course, you could also just lower the renown award for heroic sagas.
No it isn't. Farming E normal is quicker... But why bother chainingbout all the evening star one in a go is good practice an not much longer hitting multiple sagas

[HungarianRhapsody]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

What the hell?

When did this change happen?


I don't know if anyone has told you, but sometimes people run quests more than once in a life - even entire chains are run more than once. The number of absurd choices you guys have made recently is staggering.

[Xioden]

No it isn't. Farming E normal is quicker... But why bother chainingbout all the evening star one in a go is good practice an not much longer hitting multiple sagas

I find it unlikely that 3x Epic normal is going to be faster than 1x Heroic Elite for a bunch of level 28 characters.

[droid327]

Can you at least change the skill tome to a multiselector like you get with the various Reward Boxes that have come out?

AFAICR it gives you a limited selection of Skill Tomes to choose from, if you don't want the lump-sum XP or Guild Renown reward. Considering there may be only a few skills a character is actually interested in, the one-shot-per-life restriction seems especially limiting. Or if its just Guild Renown farming you're worried about....make Guild Renown only appear on first completions per life, and after that its just Tomes and XP? I really was counting on being able to repeat Sagas to pad out skill tomes on my alts...

Plus, I thought the whole point of Sagas was to encourage people to play a bigger variety of content, not just farm the "optimal" quests. If its once-per-life, then you're not accomplishing anything since most people usually run every quest once, for the first time and bravery bonuses...having repeatable Sagas would mean there's actually a point in replaying those quests, rather than just running through them all once, picking up the Saga completion, and then going back to farming Shadow Crypt or Litany or VoN3 some more...

[Aletys]

A) This is the sort of change which should definitely make the patch notes... the impact to players is beyond obvious. At this point, its NECESSARY for you to review how you assemble and choose what information to release. I would suggest perhaps consulting your players over what they feel is important to know, because its drastically different from your current opinions. Your notes are insufficient, incorrect, and incomplete.

B) This is a terrible change. Id use stronger words, but forums. You get first time XP on each difficulty, you should get at least 3 completions per life. And that doesnt even touch the fact that the way quest xp repetition/decay/etc works now actively encourages you to repeat content provided its on different days. Just terrible. If your goal is to kill heroic even further, quest objective complete.

Absolutely. Allow three times per life, minimum.


What the hell?

When did this change happen?


I don't know if anyone has told you, but sometimes people run quests more than once in a life - even entire chains are run more than once. The number of absurd choices you guys have made recently is staggering.

Agreed. Third lifers & beyond (and sometimes second lifers) often run quests & quest chains more than once, because often that's the only way they can get enough XP to level up, especially if there are quests they hate to run. I have a list of quests that I will never again run if I can avoid it, and frankly, forcing players to run content they dislike is not going to make them play the game more, it will just alienate them. I'd rather run some quests more than once in order to avoid having to play certain other quests. Granted the delta between 1st lifers & TR'd toons is not as bad as it used to be, but it's still an issue, especially if you're playing with others that are 1st or 2nd lifers. I personally am in the opposite boat, always at the wall because all my toons are first lifers, and most of my guildies are 2nd & third lifers.


Yet another change not mentioned in any release notes whatsoever. This is utter BS quite frankly! Sagas have been repeatable since they were introduced with no mention that the above was the case the whole thing stinks!

Stoner81.

Agree completely. Players don't like surprises like this. You'll get a lot less rage & flaming if at least you tell us about it beforehand, and especially if you give us a chance to give you some input.

[Ayseifn]

This is what I find stupid.
Why in the bloody hell does heroic saga gives as much gr as ee saga?
Does that make any sense?
Turbine just loves making problems.

GR is based on your character level, so you can get legendary victories from doing Haverdasher if you're level 2 but not if you're 20. It's always been that way. Sagas complicate things because sometimes you want to turn them in later, so they kept the rewards static which was nice. I would have preferred if they just took GR off the list if you were level 20+ though as that's much more in-line with the rest of the renown system than doing this.

Also I don't remember seeing this on the release notes at all.

[burningwind]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

they are meant for one times only? great.. gj turbine, give us more instruction, restrict this game even more. soon you have a sever full of prisoner

[LongshotBro]

i don't see what the big deal is. None of the quests in any of the sagas are new. So the first time you run these long, interconnected story quests you get a fat reward for your trouble (plus all the XP and loot gained from individual quests along the way) and your character has followed a strung-together plot to it's completion.

After that it returns to business as usual, running whatever quests strike your fancy at the moment.

Somehow, offering us a one-time reward for doing something we'd do anyway is restrictive? Geez, even when Turbine does cool stuff it gets turned around into a negative.

[Thumbed_Servant]

So much DOOM!

I'm ok with this. My personal opinion: Sagas were an added EXTRA for doing what we do anyway: Quests. Bonus exp, guild renown, or tome on top of the rewards we already get for doing the quests needed for the sagas. It certainly isn't as though we do not have enough heroic content to keep us busy and get us enough exp.

TY for the nice extra saga in 3bc Turbine. I'll grump at you later when you mess up something serious (speaking of which, any new word on when the in-game bug reporting tool will be repaired?)

That said Cordovan, an announcement to the effect prior to changing the repeatability of heroic sagas would have been appropriate and appreciated; wouldn't have stopped all of the doom, but it would still have been appropriate.

[morkahn82]

The last thing I would have thought of is that it is working as intended. But hey, no fix is needed. :)

[Madja]

I personally don't mind this change at all, but I do agree that an announcement prior to it would have been appropriate.

Could the issue not have been resolved by adding a ransack feature instead, though?
The rewards could simply get gradually worse after each completion and then reset after a week.

I don't actually know how much of a difference there is between the different tiers, but it might be logical to simply subtract one tier for each completion during ransack.

So turning in a True Elite saga would give you an Elite reward on the 2nd completion, a Hard on the 3rd, a Normal on the 4th and then no reward for the 5th run.
Similar to the chest ransack it would completely reset after a week has passed since your first completion.

[darkrune]

Somehow, offering us a one-time reward for doing something we'd do anyway is restrictive? Geez, even when Turbine does cool stuff it gets turned around into a negative.

So here is my 2cp. My guild did NOT farm guild renown via this method. However, I/we pay for this game. If we choose to ransack the hell out of saga quests to get the latest and greatest shinies who te **** cares? How does my gameplay effect you? How does my gameplay effect turbine? Other than getting a bigger ship faster so that I have to spend more shards on buying the new xp shrines and other rooms to fill up said ship who the **** cares?!?

Turbine you all are alienating your player with this update more and more an more as each day passes. How about you stick to your promise from 2006-2008 where this was "the MMO without the grind!" And that you are "powered by your fans!" and all that bull spit that you spout to shareholders to get them I invest.

It is things like this that drove me to go premium from VIP and once all packs were purchased to stop spending cash on this game due to your greed and stupidity.

Stop driving away players and start working WITH us to see what we want.

[Nyata]

oh my, i almost feel sorry for opening the thread in the first place

anyhow, I think we all agree it's kind of... not very elegant to change something pretty profound as far as plannig your leveling goes without mentioning it anywhere (I was planning to run the new saga 2 or 3 times to make up for skipping necro 1 and 2, cause i really do not like necro - just as I used to use gianthold to make up for skipping necro 3 and 4 so far) .
HOWEVER to everyone who is now complaining what a game breaker that is for them... it's been this way since a week. and no one seems to have noticed cause I could not find any forum posts on it or I wouldn't have opened this one at all. so... the crys of outrage fail to convince me. as hard as this may sound, my advise would be 'put the energy you put into complaining into playing and you will still level quite easily'.

[WilliamBraveheart]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

So heroic Giant hold saga is not working as intended? I ran it 2 times after the last update and got the reward. and have done so for the past 9 lives.

[CaptainSpacePony]

i don't see what the big deal is.
<snip>
Somehow, offering us a one-time reward for doing something we'd do anyway is restrictive? Geez, even when Turbine does cool stuff it gets turned around into a negative.

You misrepresent the issue. Had heroic sagas been introduced this way, there would be no backlash now. The fact that it's a change, especially that it's a surprise change, is what brought out the torches.
No one's griping about one-time rewards, they're griping about X-time rewards being cut to one.

[XiaNYdE]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

and why is this not considered important enough for release notes?? just another stealth nerf, any chance of some stealth bug fixes??

[Lauf]

I think we all agree it's kind of a not very elegant to change something pretty profound ... without mentioning it anywhere

yup. "not very elegant" is putting it mildly. I can think of several different and arguably better ways of solving the problem, without having negative impact on anyone. for example, have the sagas award guild renown based off your level compared to the quest, like normal quest end rewards.

but I guess a quick bad solution is better than a thought out one *rolls eyes*

[CaptainSpacePony]

Now that I've had a night to sleep on this, here's where I stand on it the issue now:

The bad:
-Stealth change was bad in this case. It surprised me and hurt my feelings >sniff sniff<
-Confusing that Heroic and Epic are not the same.
-If the XP reward is big, I can see how this could unbalance low level advancement.

The Good:
-U22 made sagas available at lower levels--very cool.
-On a personal note, maybe I'll see more Heroic 3BC LFMS, which would be very cool.

Overall:
I think that Turbine feels this restriction may be needed to open the way for more sagas to be introduced. I'd gladly take this restriction if it means I can have more sagas. I just wish they'd told us that sometime before I wrote it here.

[Nestroy]

Now that I've had a night to sleep on this, here's where I stand on it the issue now:

The bad:
-Stealth change was bad in this case. It surprised me and hurt my feelings >sniff sniff<
-Confusing that Heroic and Epic are not the same.
-If the XP reward is big, I can see how this could unbalance low level advancement.

The Good:
-U22 made sagas available at lower levels--very cool.
-On a personal note, maybe I'll see more Heroic 3BC LFMS, which would be very cool.

Overall:
I think that Turbine feels this restriction may be needed to open the way for more sagas to be introduced. I'd gladly take this restriction if it means I can have more sagas. I just wish they'd told us that sometime before I wrote it here.

This !!!

Only downside of this is the fact that again there has not been any communication. In that case the communication could have been quite positive about the fact that in order to introduce more heroic sagas over time the heroic sagas can only be run once. I do not mind about this at all!!!

[SilkofDrasnia]

Turbined again!

[Gizeh]

Think about it this way, Turbine: If the heroic GH saga will be turned into a once per life saga, the advancement of small guilds will be significantly slowed down. This may cause quite a few small guilds to merge with larger guilds, which means there will be fewer guilds that can spend money on Astral Shards to buy ships and amenities.

[Chaimberland]

i don't see what the big deal is. None of the quests in any of the sagas are new. So the first time you run these long, interconnected story quests you get a fat reward for your trouble (plus all the XP and loot gained from individual quests along the way) and your character has followed a strung-together plot to it's completion.

After that it returns to business as usual, running whatever quests strike your fancy at the moment.

Somehow, offering us a one-time reward for doing something we'd do anyway is restrictive? Geez, even when Turbine does cool stuff it gets turned around into a negative.

Could not of said this any better myself. Come on people! Get a grip. Besides, its because of a small percentage of the player base that was taking advantage of the system that forced Turbine to make this change. I agree this change should of been in the release notes but its not hard to see the cause behind it. You want to be mad at somebody, be mad at the people who exploited the system. And lets be honest here, once you run these quests at level and get the saga reward you'll be above level to run the quests again anyways.

[HurtyouBad]

gimmee , gimmee gimmee.....really? another day for the "PRO" Threaders to start up , yippeee....more wasteless banter about gimme more so I can then respond in angst against it or something else.....and btw D.D.O. is just fine imo and those that don't fit here is because other MMO playstyles do not work here , hence why they came from D & D's womb....all this comes down to why ppl should play this Game how they intended to in the beginning instead of listening or being told to play like everyone else is playing it.....and thats why I still am NOT BORED after 3+ years......ok I'm done and if Cordovan takes this down I'm cool with it ty D.D.O from this happy customer :)

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Cool, thanks for the response.

If it was that way before, I didn't notice. I figured it was WAI though. Makes sense really. No biggie.

It was not. This is the "fix" to an exploit issue.
Much like the more recent bag changes, rather than actually solve the problem they've stuck a bandaid on it in the form of straight lockouts.

Claiming the new change is in line with the initial intent is Turbine not having the balls to admit they can't fix it properly in code, or won't make the time to.

[Drwaz99]

I'm pretty sure they could have prevented epic level toons from collecting heroic sagas and solved it that way. This feels more like a mean-spirited "punishment" than a well thought out solution.

[zwiebelring]

This is something, people have to know. You are acting like more communicative but then do things like this. I liked running sagas for different skill tomes since you, Turbine, are the reason for no real tome drops, except upgrades. I hope many people will stop playing now and nobody will support your bottlenecked TR mechanics ever again.

This has more impact to why I play DDO than any other change you did. And you don't even bother to put into release/patchnotes. I am very disappointed by this action. Mo, I didn't exploit. Not even sure, what the problem was. But I know that I am either forced to do one TR for one skill tome reward (which can be random and may earn a skill already boosted) or buy a supreme tome for too much money.

Thank you Turbine, for a punishment instead of a fix. Thank you, exploiters, for giving them even more reason to bind tomes to the store. Deppen...

[Erdrique]

I have to admit, that I have yet to complete a saga, primarily because all of my characters are under the level for the GH and Eveningstar ones or aren't high enough for the epic levels for the same ones so my knowledge on this is limited at best. But I do find it weird that we can't repeat the heroic versions of the saga if we wanted too. The whole point of the sagas was another avenue to get some experience, primarily. People are going to farm certain quests for items out of those quests anyway, so putting in the saga system just help to promote that thought.

I don't have a problem with the saga mechanic for Heroic quests, I just find it weird since we can rerun these quests as much as we want. If the renown reward was an issue, then simply remove the renown award after you complete it once. Or replace that reward with guild renown elixir or something. That night not work either, but just a thought to keep it active since you can rerun the quests as much as you want.

[danotmano1998]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

WHAT?!?!?!

Since when?
Come on guys, this whole game is based around repetition.

[droid327]

-On a personal note, maybe I'll see more Heroic 3BC LFMS, which would be very cool.


How do you figure that? Since its one-and-done, odds are that over half the players online at any given time have already done the saga and have very little incentive to go back to any of the quests that you have trouble finding a party for...

[Gizeh]

WHAT?!?!?!

Since when?
Come on guys, this whole game is based around repetition.

^^ This.



gimmee , gimmee gimmee.....really? [...]

I have no problem if the heroic 3BC saga can only be run once per life, but Cordovan implied that this NEW restriction may be applied to other heroic sagas, and in that case it's players not wanting stuff that they already have being taken away from them, which is very clearly not asking for "moar".

[UurlockYgmeov]

^^ This.




I have no problem if the heroic 3BC saga can only be run once per life, but Cordovan implied that this NEW restriction may be applied to other heroic sagas, and in that case it's players not wanting stuff that they already have being taken away from them, which is very clearly not asking for "moar".

Same.

However if they say introduce another 3-5 heroic sagas then I might not want to repeat any. Until then I like my Gianthold Heroic Sagas!

[MindCakes]

HOWEVER to everyone who is now complaining what a game breaker that is for them... it's been this way since a week. and no one seems to have noticed cause I could not find any forum posts on it or I wouldn't have opened this one at all. so... the crys of outrage fail to convince me.
Well, I noticed the new saga was one-time deal, but, let's be honest, less than a dozen of easy low-level quests? It was seriously low hanging fruit, so I wasn't even surprised...
To be sure, I asked guildies if GH is still repeatable, and it supposedly was.
But now this:

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.
Kind of flips my plans upside down.
But then there's reports that it can be repeated, but now not sure if it's WAI. So now I'm torn between rushing to "exploit" it for the last few weeks, or just going "meh" on the whole sagas thing.
So yeah, no cry of outrage from me, more like an exasperated sigh, because they managed to ruin yet another system just as I was beginning to get interested. Maybe one day I'll time my jump on the bandwagon right and catch the overpowered wave before the nerf... not really sure I can be bothered though.

[HungarianRhapsody]

gimmee , gimmee gimmee.....really? another day for the "PRO" Threaders to start up , yippeee....more wasteless banter about gimme more so I can then respond in angst against it or something else.....and btw D.D.O. is just fine imo and those that don't fit here is because other MMO playstyles do not work here , hence why they came from D & D's womb....all this comes down to why ppl should play this Game how they intended to in the beginning instead of listening or being told to play like everyone else is playing it.....and thats why I still am NOT BORED after 3+ years......ok I'm done and if Cordovan takes this down I'm cool with it ty D.D.O from this happy customer :)

GIMME GIMME GIMME! I'm GREEDY! I want release notes that actually say what you're changing in the game when you make large changes like this!

(Seriously, if asking for appropriate release notes is "whining" or "greedy" or whatever, then feel free to put that label on me. I happen to think that having accurate and appropriate release notes is a major sign of professionalism from any software company.)

[HurtyouBad]

well you might need to to know this then....Professionalism is a State of Mind , NOT a Paycheck

[madmaxhunter]

Saga's have been around for quite some time now. Marketing pushes players to buy 3BC before the price increases at U22 drop. Most sagas are p2p packs. Now that they drained the pocketbooks of everyone who wanted to run the sagas, they nerf them. Hmm, I'm sure that wasn't the plan from the start, no way, right?

Maybe they'll put a Saga reset elixir in the DDO Store.

[Thrudh]

Because when you run them 100 times they tend to get boring.
Did you do even 1 etr?

Have you done 100 eTRs? I mostly one-and-done them. So I've only done 8 or so eTRs, and repeating quests 8 times (and a month between visits to each quest) isn't too bad.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

It just kinda sticks in my craw that we were given no warning, no notice. I was doing HE GH on a couple of characters for the +1 tomes, because I can't seem to get them any other way. I have multiple +2, +3, +4, even +5 upgrades... but I can't get the base +1s. I also was working on 'em on several others for renown. I wasn't grinding the saga, because I just don't care enough about it to want to grind them. But I'd do a couple of quests on one character one day, a few more on another the next, maybe wait a few days and do half the quests on a third character, etc. Y'know, what I felt like doing at the time. And now all of these half-completed sagas are effectively a waste of time because I foolishly trusted DDO to not suddenly change the rules on me mid-game.

Had I known that this was coming, I would've farmed more. I would've focused on one or two characters with the most pressing need (ie, the most upgrade tomes applicable on them). My FvS had one completed saga when sagas returned with four tomes: Heal (already have +3); Disable Device (useless on a pure FvS); Open Lock (ditto); and Tumble (effectively useless because I don't have anything invested into it). I was hoping for... something useful. So instead I have renown I don't really need in that particular guild, or XP also I don't particularly need as I'm in no rush.

Had I known this was coming, I would've concentrated on that FvS. I would've farmed HE GH 'til I knew the Crucible maze by heart. I wouldn't have spread the love around - I would've just *farmed* for those tomes.

THIS is what upsets me about the "only meant to be done once" proclamation. Because that was manifestly untrue until this update, and this came with no warning when Sagas were still going. This wasn't on the Known Issue list. There was no "Heroic Sagas are currently able to be done multiple times. This isn't WAI and will be fixed in a later update." It was just dropped on us in a dark alley.

[Ivan_Milic]

Have you done 100 eTRs? I mostly one-and-done them. So I've only done 8 or so eTRs, and repeating quests 8 times (and a month between visits to each quest) isn't too bad.

I did 11 etrs, in 3 months.
I also dont have that expensive shadowfail that is supposed to be expansion pack.

[Gremmlynn]

It was not. This is the "fix" to an exploit issue.
Much like the more recent bag changes, rather than actually solve the problem they've stuck a bandaid on it in the form of straight lockouts.

Claiming the new change is in line with the initial intent is Turbine not having the balls to admit they can't fix it properly in code, or won't make the time to.It just tells me that they don't feel it's worth the cost to do so for an eight year old game that doesn't generate the revenues to justify more of an investment.

[LongshotBro]

You misrepresent the issue. Had heroic sagas been introduced this way, there would be no backlash now. The fact that it's a change, especially that it's a surprise change, is what brought out the torches.
No one's griping about one-time rewards, they're griping about X-time rewards being cut to one.


i didn't think there was an issue to be misrepresented. Don't get me wrong, i completely understand the frustration felt by the change to what is expected when it's not made known beforehand. What doesn't jive with me is the intense anger coming emerging. If i logged in and found that something profound had changed on my character that was not announced, or to my subscription or whatever, then yeah, i'd be ticked as well. But here we're just talking about a boon granted via quest mechanics.

After i finished the 3BC saga and snagged my XP reward, i was like heck yeah i'm doing that again! Then of course i discovered it could only be completed once. Then i was like "aww, man...oh well i'll just go run some other quests." Gaining saga XP wasn't an integral part of my plan of play before so it didn't bother me. As a matter of fact, after finding out it was one-and-done, i thought that made sense - my character participated in a saga, and then that saga was complete. True, it breaks the immersion factor that i can just play all those quests again anyway, but that's how DDO has always been.

As to those who milked as much as they could before the change well...if i got upset every time i became aware of other players and guilds more powerful/rich/accomplished than me, i'd be upset 24/7.

[Ghoulstorm]

I don't mind them being one and done, I can see the reasoning fine. Not bothering to mention it is quite annoying and pretending that's how it was supposed to be lets us know just how gullible they think we are. I'm not sure what the point of release notes is if they're not informing us as to what a release actually does.

[LFKnowledge]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

I do not approve of this change.

[BigErkyKid]

I have seen people speed run heroic GH several times, grab the sagas, farm litany and be almost ready to hit 20.

I have done that too, since I was only interested in playing epics and with an iconic this is a fast way to get there.

I guess they realized that using sagas that way made it much easier to earn XP.

Taking it away in a sneaky way is probably better than having to discuss it with players.

What would be an argument for only letting you play them once?

[Xioden]

This doesn't seem to apply to Gianthold, or it's not actually telling you that it can not be repeated until you try to turn in. I finished the saga and was able to start it again immediately.

Also something seems wonky with renown, I popped a 20% renown elixir I had sitting around, and rather than 15,000 + 20%, received 33,000. The 300% small guild bonus applied correctly for an additional 99,000, for 132,000 total. The 132k was correctly added to guild renown, so it's not just a chat log bug.

[Ykt]

This doesn't seem to apply to Gianthold, or it's not actually telling you that it can not be repeated until you try to turn in. I finished the saga and was able to start it again immediately.

Also something seems wonky with renown, I popped a 20% renown elixir I had sitting around, and rather than 15,000 + 20%, received 33,000. The 300% small guild bonus applied correctly for an additional 99,000, for 132,000 total. The 132k was correctly added to guild renown, so it's not just a chat log bug.

Oh man that sucks. I'm so sorry this happened to you, you must feel so bad right now.

You did a good thing reporting this, I hope it gets fixed right away because other people might ragequit over this bug.

[Gizeh]

nvm

[ComicRelief]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

*Raises hand* Excuse me...but if you can only run heroic sagas ONCE (per life), period, and you happen to be a premium or F2P player that cannot unlock* "elite", and assuming you want the "elite" end reward, we better not turn in the saga completion until we've actually run all the saga quests at least 3x?

Is that CLEARLY stated anywhere, like in the saga-chain givers dialog box? Or is it "just known". Because if someone turns in the "normal" saga run for an end reward, expecting they could also get a "hard" and "elite" reward when they run them on hard and elite (respectively), they are going to be...um, very upset, to say the least (I know I would be).

{Perhaps a "warning" pop-up when turning in - "WARNING - Heroic sagas can only be turned in once per life. As you sure you want to turn this in now?" or something. And add something about 'if you want elite rewards, make sure you've run all on elite before turning in'.}

Also - was this covered in ANY release notes? Because this was certainly not the way it was before. And seeing as how this is a rather LARGE change to a previous mechanic, it should have been.

I do not recall ever hearing that "heroics are not meant to be completed more than once per life" in any of the previous saga discussions.

Of course, I could have missed it (I am rather blind at times).
;)

---
* Yes, yes - you can buy a key to unlock elite from the DDO store, or ask someone else to unlock for you. Those are unimportant details for the discussion.
;)

[Chilldude]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

It's so unlike Turbine to give us something really cool that we like and then take it away, without selling it back to us I mean. When can we expect saga resets in the store?

[B0ltdrag0n]

I find it unlikely that 3x Epic normal is going to be faster than 1x Heroic Elite for a bunch of level 28 characters.

Who said anything about 3x vs 1x?

Besides my second half of that sentence is the real point.

[Xioden]

Who said anything about 3x vs 1x?

Besides my second half of that sentence is the real point.

The 3x vs 1x is important.

The Heroic Elite saga gives 15,000 renown, while the EN only gives 5,000. Even with the overlaps on Eveningstar sagas, it's still going to take more time running the 17-36 quests for those multiple sagas than running through Gianthold saga once. Even bumping it up to EH only increases it to 7.5k renown per saga, which is probably still not enough to make it better to run than heroic Gianthold.

[Gremmlynn]

The 3x vs 1x is important.

The Heroic Elite saga gives 15,000 renown, while the EN only gives 5,000. Even with the overlaps on Eveningstar sagas, it's still going to take more time running the 17-36 quests for those multiple sagas than running through Gianthold saga once. Even bumping it up to EH only increases it to 7.5k renown per saga, which is probably still not enough to make it better to run than heroic Gianthold.That said, the only heroic saga I've heard actually only allows one run per life is the new CR4-7 Irestone/3BC/Sentinels one. I can imagine why they would not think 15k renown would be a bit over the top for caped characters in that?

Heroic GH has been reported to be repeatable, but I haven't heard anything ether way on heroic Eveningstar sagas.

[B0ltdrag0n]

The 3x vs 1x is important.

The Heroic Elite saga gives 15,000 renown, while the EN only gives 5,000. Even with the overlaps on Eveningstar sagas, it's still going to take more time running the 17-36 quests for those multiple sagas than running through Gianthold saga once. Even bumping it up to EH only increases it to 7.5k renown per saga, which is probably still not enough to make it better to run than heroic Gianthold.

Running all those very quick and zergable quests should. Come plate at least 2 if not 3+ sagas in the same time allotment.

Of course I Am assuming solo play. And quest and chain rewards as well.

[visibleman]

Heroic GH has been reported to be repeatable, but I haven't heard anything ether way on heroic Eveningstar sagas.

E* heroic saga's are still repeatable, atm.

[Seikojin]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

Sorry to necro this thread: Giantholds Heroic Saga looks like it can be completed more than once. Or at least the dialog to start it with all the rules, etc. Appears, whereas 3BC's heroic Saga givers say it can only be done once.

Is this WAI?

[Cordovan]

Sorry to necro this thread: Giantholds Heroic Saga looks like it can be completed more than once. Or at least the dialog to start it with all the rules, etc. Appears, whereas 3BC's heroic Saga givers say it can only be done once.

Is this WAI?

Yes, the Gianhold Heroic Saga is meant to be repeatable. An upcoming change (perhaps for Update 23) will make the Heroic Three Barrel Cove saga repeatable, although there will be a three-day "raid" timer placed on it. Ultimately, the decision on whether a Heroic saga is repeatable or has a "raid" timer is and will be made on an individual basis.

[Spoonwelder]

Yes, the Gianhold Heroic Saga is meant to be repeatable. An upcoming change (perhaps for Update 23) will make the Heroic Three Barrel Cove saga repeatable, although there will be a three-day "raid" timer placed on it. Ultimately, the decision on whether a Heroic saga is repeatable or has a "raid" timer is and will be made on an individual basis.
My argument for no restriction (other than related to dupers/cheaters which is it's own separate issue).....is that the first pass through a saga chain you are getting bravery bonus and then you get the saga reward as a bonus. The second time through you are not getting bravery bonus so the lacklustre XP is somewhat (but not fully) offset by saga rewards. Add to that and many people within 1-2 runs through a saga have leveled well past the quest range so there is only a nominal need for any type of restriction.

[Seikojin]

Yes, the Gianhold Heroic Saga is meant to be repeatable. An upcoming change (perhaps for Update 23) will make the Heroic Three Barrel Cove saga repeatable, although there will be a three-day "raid" timer placed on it. Ultimately, the decision on whether a Heroic saga is repeatable or has a "raid" timer is and will be made on an individual basis.

Ahh, cool. I think something that is less exploit-like would be have the items on that list disappear after each turn in. So the first time, you can take exp, the next time, renown, third time, one of the tomes, etc. Add a few items to bulk up the list.

[Qhualor]

Yes, the Gianhold Heroic Saga is meant to be repeatable. An upcoming change (perhaps for Update 23) will make the Heroic Three Barrel Cove saga repeatable, although there will be a three-day "raid" timer placed on it. Ultimately, the decision on whether a Heroic saga is repeatable or has a "raid" timer is and will be made on an individual basis.

to be honest, im not understanding the restriction. Turbine has allowed a lot of ways for us to bypass restrictions, so I can only assume with a 3 day "raid" timer on sagas that we would be able to pay to bypass that restriction, at least at some point down the road. not out of the realm of possibility knowing Turbines past and we can already use VIP skips and pay AS to skip quests in sagas. the restriction cant be so players wont abuse fast and easy xp to level focusing on specific content when Turbine allows Ottos boxes to skip content or do it the "free' way and have been xp farming specific quests for years. there are times when I think Turbine is trying to balance the game trying to get players to spread out playing more content and than there are times when it seems the balance is all just smoke and mirrors.

[Dagolar]

My argument for no restriction (other than related to dupers/cheaters which is it's own separate issue).....is that the first pass through a saga chain you are getting bravery bonus and then you get the saga reward as a bonus. The second time through you are not getting bravery bonus so the lacklustre XP is somewhat (but not fully) offset by saga rewards. Add to that and many people within 1-2 runs through a saga have leveled well past the quest range so there is only a nominal need for any type of restriction.


to be honest, im not understanding the restriction. Turbine has allowed a lot of ways for us to bypass restrictions, so I can only assume with a 3 day "raid" timer on sagas that we would be able to pay to bypass that restriction, at least at some point down the road. not out of the realm of possibility knowing Turbines past and we can already use VIP skips and pay AS to skip quests in sagas. the restriction cant be so players wont abuse fast and easy xp to level focusing on specific content when Turbine allows Ottos boxes to skip content or do it the "free' way and have been xp farming specific quests for years. there are times when I think Turbine is trying to balance the game trying to get players to spread out playing more content and than there are times when it seems the balance is all just smoke and mirrors.

The exploit- or at the least the one that was made a big deal of- is that capped toons can farm heroic sagas for extremely fast 15k renown tokens.

I know of several guilds that were level 200 within a week of the guild max level being increased from 100.
Some guilds had been stockpiling the renown tokens, since there was no bankable cap, and immediately went to 200.
Others managed to reach it in just the next week or two- at which point the devs removed heroic saga repeating.

I'm not sure the XP tokens are really the part the devs are focused on. ;P
[At least, so long as the devs continue to unfortunately not allow us to avoid the forced-auto-use.]

Of course, why the devs don't just fix it by rebalancing renown tokens so that epic saga ones and heroic saga ones compare in terms of renown gained versus time spent, instead of having you spent 30 times the time on epic sagas to get the same reward, I dunno.

[jakeelala]

Yes, the Gianhold Heroic Saga is meant to be repeatable. An upcoming change (perhaps for Update 23) will make the Heroic Three Barrel Cove saga repeatable, although there will be a three-day "raid" timer placed on it. Ultimately, the decision on whether a Heroic saga is repeatable or has a "raid" timer is and will be made on an individual basis.

Someone who is TRing/leveling isnt going to be in the same level range 3 days after completing the saga.

Why would they run it again? There is no logical reason for this that I can come up with.

[Qhualor]

The exploit- or at the least the one that was made a big deal of- is that capped toons can farm heroic sagas for extremely fast 15k renown tokens.

I know of several guilds that were level 200 within a week of the guild max level being increased from 100.
Some guilds had been stockpiling the renown tokens, since there was no bankable cap, and immediately went to 200.
Others managed to reach it in just the next week or two- at which point the devs removed heroic saga repeating.

I'm not sure the XP tokens are really the part the devs are focused on. ;P
[At least, so long as the devs continue to unfortunately not allow us to avoid the forced-auto-use.]

Of course, why the devs don't just fix it by rebalancing renown tokens so that epic saga ones and heroic saga ones compare in terms of renown gained versus time spent, instead of having you spent 30 times the time on epic sagas to get the same reward, I dunno.

players farm sagas for xp really fast. no difference doing it for renown or xp to me.

if its to prevent an actual exploit, that's on Turbines end to fix and not to lock out players taking advantage of a system in a positive manner that Turbine themselves developed for us.

instead of having a restriction, they could make sagas have a ransack effect like quest ransack xp or you earn less renown, xp and less tomes show up in the end reward. there are ways to do this without having a restriction to prevent exploiting.

[Gremmlynn]

My argument for no restriction (other than related to dupers/cheaters which is it's own separate issue).....is that the first pass through a saga chain you are getting bravery bonus and then you get the saga reward as a bonus. The second time through you are not getting bravery bonus so the lacklustre XP is somewhat (but not fully) offset by saga rewards. Add to that and many people within 1-2 runs through a saga have leveled well past the quest range so there is only a nominal need for any type of restriction.Actually, the fact that players can be well past the level range and still get full saga rewards is the reason it has a restriction. Blasting out level 4-7 quests on level 28 characters for full renown or any xp at all is what is, and should be, restricted in some way IMO.

[Gremmlynn]

Someone who is TRing/leveling isnt going to be in the same level range 3 days after completing the saga.

Why would they run it again? There is no logical reason for this that I can come up with.Easy renown. 15,000x4 (guild size)x6 (players)=360,000 potential renown as fast as that 6 man guild can zerg it on their capped characters without even adding pots or other bonuses to the equation (oh and large guilds can do much better with enough players participating). I'm thinking the devs might see gaining multiple guild levels a day from running zero challenge content as broken.

Once per three days probably doesn't thrill them much either, but at least it's better than once an hour or so. Personally, I would have also put a level cap on saga rewards, but can see why they might not want to cut players who's characters are already past it from ever being able to run the saga.

[mna]

I know of several guilds that were level 200 within a week of the guild max level being increased from 100.
Some guilds had been stockpiling the renown tokens, since there was no bankable cap, and immediately went to 200.

... then again... I don't think there was a renown cap before the update, either? Level cap at 100, yes, but no renown cap... (Had there been one at some point? If so, when did it get removed?)

The extra renown, past what was needed for 100, just didn't count for levels before the update, but the numeric renown did get stored just fine.

On one server, the guild I'm in went from capped-at-100 to... I think 125 or so... during the update.

[TrinityTurtle]

players farm sagas for xp really fast. no difference doing it for renown or xp to me.


There is a big difference between a level 28 players zerging through level 4 to 8 quests ad naseum to gain a boatload of renown in a quest that is absolutely ZERO challenge to him/her and clearly not what the renown system as a whole was meant to reward, and a player doing fast runs on quests that are at their own level and actually provide some challenge and playing the game the way it was meant to be to earn xp rewards.

[FranOhmsford]

So heroic Giant hold saga is not working as intended? I ran it 2 times after the last update and got the reward. and have done so for the past 9 lives.

I'm assuming Cordovan meant low lying fruit Sagas like Heroic 3BC which let's face it is a cakewalk for Lvl 20+ Characters!

Whereas Madstone and Crucible even on Heroic account for a large number of AS being spent {even by VIPs!}.

I turned in a H-GH Saga the other day along with a bunch of other sagas {heroic and epic} then with my pot ran 3 more H-GH Sagas in the 3 hrs I had that pot for - that was 960k renown from Heroic Gianthold alone!

And 15 AS spent skipping Madstone each time!
VIP Skips went on Crucible of course!



If they allowed Heroic 3BC to be run in the same way - You'd get people earning twice that amount of renown without needing to spend a single AS!
And no-one in their right mind would run H-GH 3 times on a pot when they could run H-3BC/Sentinels 5-6 times on that same pot!

[Halciet]

The reason (as I understand it) was some guilds were simply farming the heroic ones at level cap and milking the renown and xp rewards.

I see why they did it, but it's also a big who cares.

Frankly, having milked heroic 3BC for renown (only ran maybe 5 times total) it's too tediously boring to farm ad nauseum. Allowing that was a problem, but there are plenty of better ways they could have gone about fixing the problem.

Renown from chest drops/quest end rewards are relative to player level vs. quest level. I'm not sure why they decided to not be consistent with saga renown. They could quite easily put in a clause for being maybe 3-4 levels above saga level yielding no 15k renown option. Also they could just make the renown drops on heroic sagas down to 5k and it'd nolonger be worth farming for that purpose.

As for xp, there is no legitimate reason to do heroic content for xp on an epic toon.

Limiting heroic sagas to once per life primarily hurts heroic toons trying to get xp. It means running less favorable content and a lot more farming.

[Singular]

Heroic Sagas are not meant to be completed more than once per life, and cannot be repeated. Epic Sagas do not have this restriction.

What? When did that happen and why was this choice made?

[Singular]

It sucks hard.

I liked to zerg through heroic shadowfail saga on epic reincarnation.

It's not a fail if you like it.