Any thoughts about 17wiz/3bard or 15wiz/5bard battle mage?

[BelVic]

I was looking at new swashbucklers abilities - Two Steps Ahead: You get Intelligence to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
and idea to combine wizard and bard came up. I have left +20 LR heart in order to try something new. Appreciate any advise before I burn it.

Right now I have 2 choices : 17wiz/3bard and 15wizzie/5bard

17wiz/3bard gives :
Two Steps Ahead: You get Intelligence to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting (lvl 3 swashbuckler enhancement)
Full DC on spells - looking toward AM SLA - web and conjuration focus for crowd control
Shroud of the Wraith with Improved Shrouding (lvl 5 ability in PM) for 35% Incorporeal Miss Chance

defence would be displacement 50% + 35 % incorporeal + 25% dodge (?)

15wiz/5bard gives :
Coup de Grace - make them dance and kill every 12 secs
Exploit Weaknesses: While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically crit.
Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.

minus 1DC and 2 SR. With web spell SR is not a big deal. Less incorporeal bonus ( 25% versus 35%)

Thinking about getting orb for +5 to DC (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nether_Orb_(Level_28)) or bucler for dodge or sap abilities

Epic Destiny : Most likely Draconic Incarnation but Divine Crusader with doublestrike bonus and +1 critical range also looking interesting.

feats: Single weapon fighting (3x), spell focus : conjuration(3x), precision, insightfull reflexes, etc.

[Rush007]

Arcane melee builds are really difficult to get everything in, spell power, focuses, melee weapon and gear. The 15/5 split I would go with one school focus, conjuration and more melee feats and abilities with a buckler. 17/3 split I would go two focuses, conjuration and evocation with evocation feats and use an orb. Evocation spells prismatic spray and shouts do not have a spell penetration check so it plays nice with the multiclassing and no feats spent for it. Human likely the best race for the feat.

Wizard 15/5 Bard

7 Normal
Single weapon fighting x 3
Precision
Insightful Reflex
spell focus conjuration
extend or improved critical
(extra human feat)

4 Wizard
quicken
heighten
maximize
greater spell focus conjuration

3 Epic
Epic spell focus conjuration
shield mastery
improved shield mastery

2 Destiny
spell power acid - energy burst element
hellball - Great AOE spell, double hits with packed targets and plays nice with web

Destiny - Draconic with vortex line, grabbing int over acid spell power,caster levels, dragon's breath and flyby attack for EE's.

Twists
Level 3 Conjuration mastery -10 reflex 15% of time - helps with web , energy burst and hellball plus plenty of long lasting conjuration spells you can rerun thru
Level 2 Conjuration specialist 3 DC
Level 2 Legendary shield mastery - defense and offense in one twist

Enhancements
41 swashbuckler, so many good tier 5 abilites
25 Palemaster, int and wraith form, take maximize spell point reduction
6 archmage, just web

(8 left)
? EK - at least 1 point for cleave
? Racial - at least 3 for 1 int assuming you have a race that can do that

Spell power in this build suffers because not many points are spend in archmage. Pick up extend for tensers because to melee well your going to need that BAB, hit and swing speed. This effects your DC's and your already taking a hit from no capstone int and no second tree int. Main reason for what the twists are. Luckily web costs almost nothing and solid fog is cheap, long lasting and no save -5 to reflex. Gear is tricky, going to need nullifcation, sonic, acid spell power, conjuration focus, a buckler, decent melee weapon, deadly items. Pick up new buckler with purple slot and put in nullification. Weapon red slot acid spell power. Conjuration focus can go on boots in the form of sage boots with +5 focus and +40 vitality. Use Potency 92 ring from what goes up for sonic. Use balizarde as it is keen and can pair a planar focus with it.

Notable conjuration spells to use to get that -10 save to reflex:
Acid blast - nice AOE
Glitterdust - long lasting blind
Incindenary cloud - fire damage and blind
cloudkill - long lasting acid damage
solid fog - no save -5 reflex, counts as a hit for -10 to saves
stinking cloud - fort save CC, use on archers and casters
acid rain - more AOE, short duration but better than firewall if you have acid spellpower slotted
black dragon bolt - nice quick damage dot, no save
melf's acid arrow - do not max or empower this, good cheap dot, no save
waves of exhaustion - not conjuration but AOE cone no save -3 reflex and 50% move speed, spell peneration check don't use on demons/drow, scrollable

Conjuration DC
Int 18 base + 7 level up + 10 item + 3 insight + 1 exceptional + 2 ship + 2 palemaster + 1 racial + 5 tome + 2 yugo = 51 int

10 base spell + 8 spell lvl heighten + 20 int + 5 conjuration focus + 2 yellow augment + 3 feats + 3 twist magister + 2 draconic + 1 ship + 1 shadow armor =

55 DC - 2 Tensers = 53 DC + 2 from draconic int EE build = 55

Easy debuffs
Swashbuckler enhancement -3 reflex
solid fog -5 reflex

63 reflex save debuffed, NO SAVE on debuffs

Yugo pot works well with this you have fortification to spare. Debuffs will be needed to land on some monsters and as a wizard you have them. Melee wise the swashbuckler tree looks fantastic. You have coup and multiple ways to use it. You have damage from high int, decent hit augmented by precision and tensers. Great defenses in dodge, displacement and prr with negitive self healing and undead immunities. Won't break any speed records in killing monsters but the overall package has alot of value.

Edit: add 2 more DC from int from draconic EE build putting it at 55 after tensers. Hit the EE 60 DC with fog then. Enhancements your going to want to pick up the second core of EK for the -5% spell failure of the buckler. Some easy points to move around from swashbuckler tree, mostly likely do not need 6 reflex saves for 6 AP. Completely forgot about swashbuckler debuff.

[BelVic]

Wow. Thanks a lot for your time spent on getting all information together.
I have couple questions :
1) Will be divine power clickies better than tenser transformation ?
I have bunch of them saved from earlier days and I will not have -2 to DC
+4 Str is not important. I will be missing mostly +4 Con and no long cooldown on spells.

2) Three shield mastery feats will give me some PRR and +15% doublestrike ?
Could I have a better deal if I swap it for feats like epic Ruin and Epic Damage reduction ?
Also Perfect Single Weapon Fighting might work better as epic destiny feat instead of spell power acid (depending if need double vorpal range) ?
How about Sap feat ? Mana-free ability which should work ( I guess) with Coup de Grace

[Rush007]

Wow. Thanks a lot for your time spent on getting all information together.
I have couple questions :
1) Will be divine power clickies better than tenser transformation ?
I have bunch of them saved from earlier days and I will not have -2 to DC
+4 Str is not important. I will be missing mostly +4 Con and no long cooldown on spells.

2) Three shield mastery feats will give me some PRR and +15% doublestrike ?
Could I have a better deal if I swap it for feats like epic Ruin and Epic Damage reduction ?
Also Perfect Single Weapon Fighting might work better as epic destiny feat instead of spell power acid (depending if need double vorpal range) ?

1. Yep divine power will work. Actually better that it doesn't lower DC's and increase spell cooldown. (web sla is not increased from tensers)

2. 2 shield feats, 1 level 2 twist will give 25 prr and 15% doublestrike I believe. These feats are nice to have but are not deal breakers. If you don't have 3,2,2 twists yet they are kinda meh actually as I would value the DC twists above shield twist. I value crowd control over damage. They are also one of the few feats left to increase your melee damage.

Epic damage reduction and ruin are level 27 feats can only take one or the other. Would leave one feat free, empower, dodge (if not hitting cap), improved critical, or extend I could see taking the other spot if you want to go that way. On spell power acid, your going to have energy burst and vortex acid. Would need a lot of vorpal effects to make up for that 20% from that feat.

[Rush007]

Enhancements

35 swashbuckler
21 palemaster, pick up 1 int, 30 hp, wraith form
15 ek, 15 hp sla's, doublestrike, arcane barrier, 1 int
7 archmage, pick up web
1 racial, boost

1 left over

Int was odd in build, losing one int from racial not a big deal.

Defense
25 % incorp
20-50 % concealment
deflect arrows
arcane barrier

Dodge
10% item + 3% wraith + 3% bard + 2% core + 7% buckler = 25% of 27% max

PRR
10 ek + 35 shield masteries + 16 blue augment or 30 raid bracer = 51-75
(Legendary shield mastery says 15 its actually double at 30 so 5 from feats, + 30 from twist)

Acid spellpower can reach 300's big help is the 30 from draconic and 20 from feat.

Doublestrike
2% bard core + 15% shield masteries + 2% ek + 1% ek core = 20%

[poptolev]

AFAIK the shield masteries give only 8% Doublestrike.

How about 15 Wiz/3 Bard/2 Rogue ? It'll add evasion to those insightful reflexes and something to use all those skill points on (the trap skillzzz)

31-34 EK (for permanent tensers since with 3 bard you wont be going for T5 anyway)
6 AM - web
21 PM - Wrath
16-19 SB - Depending on if you prefer Resonant Arms over 3% doublestrike

Isn't the to-hit chance going to be quite low ?

[Rush007]

AFAIK the shield masteries give only 8% Doublestrike.

How about 15 Wiz/3 Bard/2 Rogue ? It'll add evasion to those insightful reflexes and something to use all those skill points on (the trap skillzzz)

31-34 EK (for permanent tensers since with 3 bard you wont be going for T5 anyway)
6 AM - web
21 PM - Wrath
16-19 SB - Depending on if you prefer Resonant Arms over 3% doublestrike

Isn't the to-hit chance going to be quite low ?

Was counting the twist legendary shield mastery into double strike calculations. If tensers is up to hit I would think would be fine. Also have precision which helps with that.

[stoerm]

Just logged in to ask about a similar idea and I'm judging a second swashbuckler battle wraith thread isn't warranted.

My main question is the same as BelVic's: how big is Coup de Gras, i.e 5 bard?

My planned build is Shadar kai, so wiz/bard/rogue (15/3/2) like Poptolev suggests. I am leaning toward 3 bard, but wanted to get an opinion. With 2 cleric (and a few others) past lives under the belt I'm judging 15 wiz can still have viable DCs. 12 Wizard would be a plain melee with benefits unless in Shiradi.

Dead sexy pirate, a theory build outline:

15 wiz, bard 3, 2 rogue (take rogue at 1 and 9, bard at 6, 14 and 20)
32 pts Stats: 18 Int, 16 Con, 14 Dex.
Mandatory feats: Quicken, Heighten, Maximise, SWF x 3, Insightful Reflexes, Precision, IC: Piercing
Undecided feats: Weapon Finesse, Extend, SF:Conjuration

On a 36 pt character there's a bit more leeway, so I'm thinking dropping finesse and starting with 10 dex (+3 tome for Precision) and putting the rest in strength for to-hit.

I was looking mainly at the buckler stance for 10% dodge. ED: Shadowdancer for melee or Shiradi as a casting option.

Any insight on the CdG question is much appreciated.

[BelVic]

I was looking mainly at the buckler stance for 10% dodge. ED: Shadowdancer for melee or Shiradi as a casting option.


If you decided to go with ShadowDancer then you don't need 2 levels of rogue, isn't it ?
Shadow Mastery : Passive Bonus: You now have Evasion

I am still playing with feats, thinking if perform DC will be enough on non-charisma based build or will I need perform+3 or perform+5 feats.
I also saw that some bard builds include feats like "cleave, great cleave and power attack" which is another option over shield mastery feats.

[stoerm]

If you decided to go with ShadowDancer then you don't need 2 levels of rogue, isn't it ?
Shadow Mastery : Passive Bonus: You now have Evasion


Absolutely. I am thinking of Shiradi as kind of a plan B if the melee thing bombs. :) This is also a wizard + shadar kai PL build so I will have at least one rogue level in any case.

[Daggr]

15 wizard 5 bard build...snip...

Great concept here so I tried it. Here are my notes:

Feat order is an issue depending on your stat allocation. Most notably Precision which requires 15Dex. Because of using Insightful Reflexes, Dex should be a dump stat which mean no Precision until your +5 Dex tome kicks in at 19. This created issues with to-hit in heroic levels (STR nearly dumped too with only a couple points [10]). Accuracy items helped with this.

Improved/Greater SWF - both have BAB requirements that are hard to reach with so many wizzy levels. GSWF requires 11 which means cap or higher before you can get it

Greater Spell Focus - can't be taken as a Wiz bonus feat. Make sure to take SF as one of the wizzy bonus feats instead.

Improved Crit/Extend - both pretty important. I opted for Extend, but have had issues on weapons without keen

Other than that it's a decent build. Killing stuff now (lvl23 at the moment) can be a painfully slow process soloing. Web DC's are good, but keep in mind that webbed mobs are not susceptible to Coup de Grace (bug? probably not since it's not in the description :( ). That means you have to rely on Low Blow or other CC to pull it off. Also scrolling Divine Power gets really old every minute.

[unbongwah]

Just some theorycrafting for wiz 15 / bard 5 ideas:

Stats: max INT, enough DEX for Precision, decent CON, the rest wherever.

Feats: BAB progression makes this a PITA.

heroic (7): SWF (1), Precision (3), Shield Mastery (6), Insightful Reflexes (9), ISWF (12), Imp Crit (15), Imp Shield Mastery (18)
epic (3): Gtr Spell Focus (21), GSWF (24), Epic Spell Focus or Ruin (27)
wiz (4): Maximize (1), Spell Focus (5), Quicken (10), Heighten (15)


Spell focus should be in whatever your Archmage school is. I would lean Evocation for missile spam, but Conj for Web SLA is another option. Your Spell Pen will suck, so I'd advise against Necro or Enchant unless you have the PLs and gear to overcome that. Alternatively, drop Precision and Gtr / Epic Spell Focus to take Power Atk / Cleave / GC chain; in which case I might backload Shield Mastery and go empty offhand until epic lvls.

Enhancements: at least 33 APs into Swashbuckler for Coup de Grace & Exploit Weakness. Rest can go where you like.

[Rush007]

Great concept here so I tried it. Here are my notes:

Feat order is an issue depending on your stat allocation. Most notably Precision which requires 15Dex. Because of using Insightful Reflexes, Dex should be a dump stat which mean no Precision until your +5 Dex tome kicks in at 19. This created issues with to-hit in heroic levels (STR nearly dumped too with only a couple points [10]). Accuracy items helped with this.

Improved/Greater SWF - both have BAB requirements that are hard to reach with so many wizzy levels. GSWF requires 11 which means cap or higher before you can get it

Greater Spell Focus - can't be taken as a Wiz bonus feat. Make sure to take SF as one of the wizzy bonus feats instead.

Improved Crit/Extend - both pretty important. I opted for Extend, but have had issues on weapons without keen

Other than that it's a decent build. Killing stuff now (lvl23 at the moment) can be a painfully slow process soloing. Web DC's are good, but keep in mind that webbed mobs are not susceptible to Coup de Grace (bug? probably not since it's not in the description :( ). That means you have to rely on Low Blow or other CC to pull it off. Also scrolling Divine Power gets really old every minute.

Way I envisioned fighting is leading with web to get stuff in an area, follow up with wall of fire or cloudkill for nice AOE damage, maybe throw hellball or acid blast for more aoe and mix in melee. Setup coup and take one down. If its just web and melee them down it's going to be rough. Wizard with capable melee, not a melee wizard. Spells casting will be needed to make this build shine.

[Nayus]

Wow. Thanks a lot for your time spent on getting all information together.
I have couple questions :
1) Will be divine power clickies better than tenser transformation ?
I have bunch of them saved from earlier days and I will not have -2 to DC
+4 Str is not important. I will be missing mostly +4 Con and no long cooldown on spells.

2) Three shield mastery feats will give me some PRR and +15% doublestrike ?
Could I have a better deal if I swap it for feats like epic Ruin and Epic Damage reduction ?
Also Perfect Single Weapon Fighting might work better as epic destiny feat instead of spell power acid (depending if need double vorpal range) ?
How about Sap feat ? Mana-free ability which should work ( I guess) with Coup de Grace
As someone who has extensively played Battle Mages long before the enhancement pass I'll say something to you: Divine Power Clickies will be a PITA. Don't they last 36 seconds or so?

I always thought I needed Full-BAB in a melee wizard so I made the test once and tried it out without it, the results were that while I did have problems hitting some certain high-AC mobs it was mostly okay/optimal for everything else. The new to-hit mechanics have almost completely invalidated the value of BAB, just make sure to get a good Accuracy Item and WEAR a STR Item.

I played a pure Bard and I had 43 APs in SB, you're probably taking some unnecessary abilities, would you mind posting your full AP distribution?