Paladin Changes

[Severlin]

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


The updated class table will look like this:

1st +1/+1/+6 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, Smite evil (1/rest), Follower of (your faith)
2nd +2/+2/+7 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, Lay on hands (1/rest)

3rd +3/+3/+8 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity

4th +4/+4/+9 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead

5th +5/+5/+10/+15 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil (2/rest)

6th +6/+6/+11/+16 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease (1/rest), Deity-based feat
7th +7/+7/+12/+17 +5 +2 +2 Armor of Light (25)
8th +8/+8/+13/+18 +6 +2 +2 Weapon of Light (1d6)
9th +9/+9/+14/+19 +6 +3 +3 Remove disease (2/rest)

10th +10/+10/+15/+20 +7 +3 +3 Smite evil (3/rest)

11th +11/+11/+16/+21 +7 +3 +3 Weapon of Light (Burst on 20)
12th +12/+12/+17/+22 +8 +4 +4 Remove disease (3/rest)

13th +13/+13/+18/+23 +8 +4 +4 Armor of Light (50)
14th +14/+14/+19/+24 +9 +4 +4 Weapon of Light (2d6)
15th +15/+15/+20/+25 +9 +5 +5 Remove disease (4/rest), Smite evil (4/rest)

16th +16/+16/+21/+26 +10 +5 +5 -
17th +17/+17/+22/+27 +10 +5 +5 Weapon of Light (Burst x2)
18th +18/+18/+23/+28 +11 +6 +6 Remove disease (5/rest)

19th +19/+19/+24/+29 +11 +6 +6 Armor of Light (75)
20th +20/+20/+25/+30 +12 +6 +6 Weapon of Light (3d6), Smite evil (5/rest)


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

[Captain_Wizbang]

I'm not a big fan of a 2 level splash to get class perks, as most trees are front loaded.

+ 8 is huge, but hey, it's a Paladin.

Another concern is the AP's spent for all this, Any insight for that?

[slarden]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.



So a max of 8 for 2 paladin levels if I understand this correctly?

Considering how broken monkchers and other builds are this seems like an odd nerf. For many classes 8 won't make a huge difference but it definitely wrecks some higher charisma builds.

I guess I would just ask with all the balance issues in the game why focus on one that isn't all that game breaking compared to others?

[Bridge_Dweller]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.




Divine might needs a similar nerf, and while you're at it Stunning Blow's DC formula needs to be evaluated.

[CeltEireson]

To be honest I'd restrict the save element even more - +8 to saves in a D20 system is a massive boost. I'd set the formula at 1 + 2 x paladin level giving +5 to saves at level 2. Still very good bonus to saves but doesn't mean you will have builds that are stupidly ahead of everyone else. Too big a difference between a build with and without paladin levels makes it very hard to balance DCs in content, especially when you factor in evasion.

[Impaqt]

I think the cap on divine grace is fine.

I dont think any of the changes here are exciting enough to get folks rolling paladins again.

The problem isnt a few D6 of damage. THe fact that some dev thinks this is a game changing solution is disappointing.

The problem with Paladins is that they are a feat starved class with Bad PrE lines.

[Ovrad]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

Honestly, I think you could go 2 + (2 x Paladin Level) and it would still be more than fair.

The rest of the proposed changes sounds good to me.

(Of course the PrEs might need some work as well though)

[Lauf]

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.


the general idea is solid, but IMO you're looking to put the changes in the wrong place. the damage seems to be something that's better off connected to the enhancement tree cores, which are only available at certain levels.
if you place the changes you wish to have into the cores rather than auto-granted with class levels, you'll have the ability to give bash light damage to SaD, and weapon light damage to KoTC, which to me makes more sense than having them flatly apply to all paladins.

as for connecting divine grace to pally levels - although I've had my share of builds using it (= I'm not a "pally-splash-hater") I don't think you're connecting it hard enough for it to really matter. drop it to from a +8 to a +6, and now you'll have normal every-day builds starting to consider splashing more pally levels.
+8 seems to me to be high enough so that 90% of the players won't be affected, and the few sorcs that will be affected aren't going to deep splash pally on their sorc.... so you're not really getting where you want to go, just rubbing some people the wrong way.

-- edit

I'm gonna join Impaqt in saying the PrEs/mechanics need more love rather than adding just bonus flat damage.

[Grailhawk]

Divine might needs a similar nerf, and while you're at it Stunning Blow's DC formula needs to be evaluated.

I don't really see the nerf 2+3x4= 14 which is a 38 Char most the splashes are right around there any ways its just frees them up a bit with base stat allocation.

[thegreatneil]

Weapon of Light need its damage increased based on Devotion spell power.
1d6-3d6 is fine in heroics, not in epics.

I do want to state I like these ideas, getting me excited about paladins again.

[maddong]

Awesome work! A reason to play a paladin!

I'd restrict the saves more. 8 saves is the equivalent of 4-8 feats. Divine might should be level based too.

Since you are lowering EE to hit how about also lowering EE saves at the same time.

[elgranmago13]

"~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level."

Does anyone have problems with their paladins dying? It's the ability to kill stuff that they need. The weapons of light is a good start, but as Impaqt said it's the PREs that need fixing in order for the class to be better.

[Raiderone]

Honestly, I think you could go 2 + (2 x Paladin Level) and it would still be more than fair.

The rest of the proposed changes sounds good to me.

(Of course the PrEs might need some work as well though)

Whatever is decided, a 2 level Pally splash should be better than going Half Elf Pally Dilettante...

[Forul]

My thoughts are as follows;
The light damage given is minuscule in proportion to the amount of hit points current epic mobs have. I believe a percent base increase would be more appropriate or have the aoe burst affect every hit.

I think limiting the charisma to saves is a good idea but over all wont have any effect.
There is no reason to push more paladin levels if i cant get my charisma high enough to go over the mark.
for example if this update went live i would lose 3 points of charisma from my saves on my monk. This is not a large enough change to make me want to take more paladin levels or switch my build. Nor will it harm my build at all.

I believe that the prestige classes from paladin also need a buff as well as their ability to heal themselves. Right now there are very few reasons to go paladin over some other melee class such as fighter.

[Arkadios]

I think the cap on divine grace is fine.

I dont think any of the changes here are exciting enough to get folks rolling paladins again.

The problem isnt a few D6 of damage. THe fact that some dev thinks this is a game changing solution is disappointing.

The problem with Paladins is that they are a feat starved class with Bad PrE lines.

Agreed, the changes here are nice but I don't think it will entice any more players to play paladins, if you already play one it's a nice little boost but other than that it's not a big enough difference.

I think Paladins should be given a few class feats of their own. Perhaps 2 or 3 slots at either levels; 8 and 16 or at levels; 6,12 and 18.
Class feats could include:
Toughness, Combat expertise, Shield mastery, Improved shield mastery, Improved shield bash, Shield Deflection, Empower heal, extend, quicken, dodge, mobility, spring attack, Resilience, Diehard, Extra turning, Improved turning, Mental toughness, Improved mental toughness, Tower shield proficiency.

Maybe a few others like the reflex saving feats, magical training? etc.
Give Paladins those as bonus feats and I think you'll find that Paladins will become a more valid class to play.

~ Arkadios.

P.S I won't go on about barbarians in this thread but I think they need their own one too.

[CeltEireson]

To be honest I'd restrict the save element even more - +8 to saves in a D20 system is a massive boost. I'd set the formula at 1 + 2 x paladin level giving +5 to saves at level 2. Still very good bonus to saves but doesn't mean you will have builds that are stupidly ahead of everyone else. Too big a difference between a build with and without paladin levels makes it very hard to balance DCs in content, especially when you factor in evasion.

And as it wont let me edit my post.

The one proviso with the above is the DCs of existing content in terms of saving against mob spells/traps - I don't know whether you factored in the kind of saves that paladin splash evasion builds could get to currently when deciding on saves in epic elite, but if you did and you restrict the bonus available then you might want to relook at those DCs again.

[TheGuyYouKnow]

these are some nice changes for paladin in heroic levels but i don't see much that will make much of a difference once they get into epics because the light damage has no way of scaling like adding to critical profiles and improved base damage do

Just for clarity:
At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.
the burst will be the same amount of light damage as the weapon and then doubled at 17?

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.
this refers to the weapon, not an aura, correct?


charisma to saves:
you are trying to spread out the bonuses for paladin for the people who splash 2 paladin, 2+(3x paladin level) is not nearly enough, 2x paladin level would be more than enough while still providing a nice +4 to all saves for those with the splash while very likely not hindering anyone with more than 8 paladin levels

^another option is to lower EE enemy spell dcs to a more realistic number so the paladin splash is not absolutly required by everyone who wants to stay alive

[Ovrad]

Whatever is decided, a 2 level Pally splash should be better than going Half Elf Pally Dilettante...

That's a good point, but even with 2 + (2 x Paladin Level) it would be better. Dilettante can give up to 5 to saves, while 2 pally with that formula is 6.

[CeltEireson]

I'm not a big fan of a 2 level splash to get class perks, as most trees are front loaded.

+ 8 is huge, but hey, it's a Paladin.

Another concern is the AP's spent for all this, Any insight for that?

As far as I can see its all going to be core paladin stuff i.e. as you level you gain them automatically so you wont need to spend any APs to get any of this.

[cru121]

Right now there are very few reasons to go paladin over some other melee class such as fighter.

Nerf BF Reconstruct and suddenly paladin selfhealing becomes much more valuable.

[maddmatt70]

The proposed changes to Divine Grace are sufficient I think. Looking at things from any item inflation standpoint I think +8 is solid. I would say that the light damage although interesting is not enough. The enhancement trees need a revamp and a 3rd tree needs to be added. Smiting I think should be even more powerful. Evil and/or undead/evil outsiders damage should be greater. I would grant additional uses for turns as well. Divine Might is akward and ruins too many builds. All fighters should splash cleric/fvs/ or paldin levels for example to take advantage of the strength from divine might for e.g..

[CeltEireson]

I understand the weapon of light is toggleable, but there are no situations I can think of where you wouldn't want the additional damage (unless youre planning on introducing mobs that are healed by light). The only bit you might want to be able to turn off is the area effect in case you damage mobs you don't want to or get more aggro than you can handle, so if you can find a way to make that part toggleable if might be better.

[thegreatneil]

Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

This is great but where is the flip side.

A non sorc paladin has what, at best a 40 cha? (being generous here)

So at what point does a paladin get DOUBLE benefits from divine grace?
Yes I feel they should. Somewhere between 12 -20 maybe even as a capstone.

[onny]

Its worth mentioning that in the other thread posted this morning the following was said, so turbine is looking at adjusting the PRE's as well so the decent class changes plus PRE overhaul should result in a great over all effect:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443353-Armor-and-Mitigation-Changes

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will no longer be shield based trees. Instead, the enhancements that current require shields will be changed to require medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

[Grailhawk]

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.




You would be better off giving them bonus feat at 2,7,13,19, Choice from a list of TWF, ITWF, GTWF, THF, ITHF, GTHF, SWF, ISWF, GSWF, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Cleave, Great Cleave, Quicken Spell, Maximize Spell, Empower Healing, Empower Spell, and Extend Spell. Alternatively you could force Paladins into a particular combat style (like Rangers are) and just give them the appropriate feat at 1,6,11.

Basically give them some feat to take a fighting style and still have enough left over to take the feat that help distinguished the class from Fighter. Bonus Feat like this are what make Ranger work use this approach to fix Paladin as well.

[Satyriasys]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.


I love it! Looks like you guys are starting to make some long overdue fixes.

[Alternative]

The proposed Divine Grace change feel like it leaves the 2 pal splash on the verge of viability, anything less than +8 saves and I'd start considering 2 fvs helf instead, if the APs allow.

As for the rest of the changes, let's make something clear: the end game is about killing mobs with tons of hp who in addition hit back very hard, so you want to kill them as fast as possible. Thus 6d6 light damage won't make any difference. If you want the paladin to be a viable end game class you need to stop pigeonholing them as tanks, and stop making them one trick ponies (arguably) good vs outsiders. Last couple updates we've been getting more epic orcs and giants, devils and demons are mid game in ddo.

[Battlehawke]

It's a step in the Right Direction. I've always thought of the Paladin Class as the Class with Epic Momments. The suggestions of added light damage appeals to this concept. Give it more though. Don't stop there. Let it have a serious impact on end fights.

Give people more reasons to go Pure or splash deeply.

- Perhaps even adding a Capstone of a 1000 HP LIGHT Burst damage on a Vorpal Hit would make it VERY appealing.
- Maybe even some kind of Deity Intervention similar to Audience with The Queen that adds some Randomness to it.
Either of these would be one heck of a reason to go Pure to Lvl 20.
Also, how about some added SR for increased levels of Paladin along with the higher saves?

The added HP on Smites is useless. Give them mor PRR/MRR instead.

Maybe give it two clear paths of either Serious Heavy Divine DPS or some Heavenly Defenses or a medium mixture of both.

Ps. What about the Barbarians while we are at it?

[Krelar]

When you say weapons of light is a toggle will it disable any other abilities (i.e. power attack, precision, ..) or is the toggle just so you can turn it off if you don't want the light damage or AOE burst damage in certain situations?

The temp hit points aren't that interesting staying alive on my paladin has never been particularly difficult.

What we really need is a PRE that actually gives us some decent offensive options and ways to make up for the lack of feats available. KoTC is too limited, and defenders need an offensive option they can easily switch to when tanking is not needed.

[Blackheartox]

I think the cap on divine grace is fine.

I dont think any of the changes here are exciting enough to get folks rolling paladins again.

The problem isnt a few D6 of damage. THe fact that some dev thinks this is a game changing solution is disappointing.

The problem with Paladins is that they are a feat starved class with Bad PrE lines.

This, but they did say they will add some new prestiges and that you will be able to use defender stance without shield, it might actually be good now.
I mean, pyrene anyone?

[WilliamBraveheart]

I would like to see paladins get a couple of class combat feats Kind of like fighters and monks as this is a very feat starved class.

[Chaimberland]

This is a step in the right direction. The temporary hit points not so much, survivability has never been the problem with paladins. Its their offensive output and lack of feats that restrains them. Their tree's could use some help. Like KotC. To choose whether you do extra damage to evil outsiders or undead is just too restricting. Paladins should do extra damage to all evil creatures.

[Severlin]

When you say weapons of light is a toggle will it disable any other abilities (i.e. power attack, precision, ..) or is the toggle just so you can turn it off if you don't want the light damage or AOE burst damage in certain situations?


The only reason it is a toggle is in the specific case you run into something that is healed by light. It should stack with everything.



The temp hit points aren't that interesting staying alive on my paladin has never been particularly difficult.

What we really need is a PRE that actually gives us some decent offensive options and ways to make up for the lack of feats available. KoTC is too limited, and defenders need an offensive option they can easily switch to when tanking is not needed.

It is difficult sometimes for us to communicate the larger plan, but picture these changes with plans to have some new trees; Vanguard (a weapon and shield DPS tree) and Shieldbearer (a weapon and shield mitigation tree).

Also, we plan to have the light damage scale with certain types of spell power. We are still working on the details of the spell power scaling.

Sev~

[bbqzor]

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

And no mention of enhancements. The obvious, easy way to address this.


~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

Meh. Getting 75 hp off the next hit you take periodically is nice, but no ones going to like build their characters level progression around that. Again... that sounds more like an enhancement than a class feature. It might help mitigation in short bursts (when chaining smites on a boss or something) but really its not going to let anyone do anything they couldnt already do. In addition, many of those often happen quickly in succession (ie, power up divine might using a turn, spend a smite, possibly toss a loh, as one sequence that can readily happen in tougher fights) which limits how much the ability helps. I applaud the concept of rewarding use of these class only abilities. But a more tangible/useable reward is probably needed.


~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.
At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.
At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.
At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.
At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.
At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.
Sigh. 3d6 is a drop in the bucket in epic. Shield bash STILL doesnt attack at its proper rate. And making it automatically AE? Fail. No way to prevent messing with possible scripts, cc, etc other than turning it off is undesirable. Again, no one is going to suddenly take another 18 class levels for 3d6 dmg.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.
Lol, trolled again. No ones going to take a level for a 3 saves and little to no other benefit. All youre doing is nerfing the saves on all paladin splashes, which with the heavy armor changes may not even matter as they will likely kill the desire for evasion (in their current format). Sigh.

........

What should have happened is a look at the enhancements to add unique and compelling things for increasing your paladin levels. In addition, consideration for adding some more (useful) paladin spells. Class benefits which promote using their abilities are fine, as long as they arent made with "tradeoffs" (like light being ae or nothing) or "self conflicting" (non stacking hp for actions youd want to take in succession, rather than at spaced intervals). Divine grace shouldnt be touched, its hurting nothing, and in addition to requiring class levels requires an alignment which frequently subjects the player to more detrimental effects. Actually coding shield bash to work properly with attack timing is critical, if you are going to push paladins and shields even more (despite them not having enough feats to actually take advantage of shields). Which suggests that perhaps, in DDO, paladins need a "crusader bonus feat" progression periodically. One which can only be spent on shield related things, or mobility, or whatever. But they need feats to keep up with the burden of defense being shifted into feat trees. And some temp hp dont make up for that.

What else can I say. Give them a few bonus feats, and make the enhancements better. Maybe an enhancement to "smite anything" as is often used in pnp, to open the class benefits up to more content. Fix shields so the shield attacks arent a joke. Dont nerf stuff. Thanks.

[HatsuharuZ]

Well, the divine grace change would hurt my build, which has only two paladin levels, but I could probably accept that if you made taking more levels in paladin useful.

The Aura of Light ability doesn't do much for me. It doesn't scale well, and it doesn't fix the problem with paladins.


The problem with Paladins: Anything that a paladin can do, with the sole exception of Smite Evil, a Favored Soul or Cleric can do better.

Example 1: Paladins have martial weapon proficiency and full BAB. FvS and Cleric can get full BAB from warpriest and martial weapon proficiency by splashing one level in any melee class or taking Fighter Dillie as a half-elf. Same thing for FvS and heavy armor proficiency.

Example 2: Lay on Hands is not nearly as powerful as a combination of the Heal spell and Quicken. Also, Heal can be used more often than LoH.

Example 3: Paladins can cure disease a few times per rest. Anyone can cure their own diseases by drinking commonly available Cure Disease Potions!

Example 4: Paladins get "Angelskin", which temporarily gives DR 5/evil, as a second level spell at paladin lvl 8. Clerics and FvS get DR 5/- as the class lvl 3 core ability in the Warpriest tree as a permanent passive ability.

Also, there are some issues with paladin enhancements.

Sacred Defender: Not only does the sacred defender stance take up most of the tree, there are almost no offensive abilities. This tree also has a monopoly on the paladins' positive energy spell power.

Knight of the Chalice: This tree combines the old Knight of the Chalice and Hunter of the Dead PrE lines, amongst other things. A lot of the old enhancements, including the KotC capstone, were copied from the old paladin enhancements, except with lower costs. Compare to pretty much every other tree, which *improved* upon the old enhancements.

[Krelar]

It is difficult sometimes for us to communicate the larger plan, but picture these changes with plans to have some new trees; Vanguard (a weapon and shield DPS tree) and Shieldbearer (a weapon and shield mitigation tree).

Also, we plan to have the light damage scale with certain types of spell power. We are still working on the details of the spell power scaling.

Sev~

I hadn't ready your other thread when I made this post. The idea of new trees interests me but I'm holding out for more details. :)

As far as spell power, would you consider making it based on positive energy since that is the only spell power Pallys are likely to invest anything in?

[Irongutz2000]

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


The updated class table will look like this:

1st +1/+1/+6 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, Smite evil (1/rest), Follower of (your faith)
2nd +2/+2/+7 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, Lay on hands (1/rest)

3rd +3/+3/+8 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity

4th +4/+4/+9 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead

5th +5/+5/+10/+15 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil (2/rest)

6th +6/+6/+11/+16 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease (1/rest), Deity-based feat
7th +7/+7/+12/+17 +5 +2 +2 Armor of Light (25)
8th +8/+8/+13/+18 +6 +2 +2 Weapon of Light (1d6)
9th +9/+9/+14/+19 +6 +3 +3 Remove disease (2/rest)

10th +10/+10/+15/+20 +7 +3 +3 Smite evil (3/rest)

11th +11/+11/+16/+21 +7 +3 +3 Weapon of Light (Burst on 20)
12th +12/+12/+17/+22 +8 +4 +4 Remove disease (3/rest)

13th +13/+13/+18/+23 +8 +4 +4 Armor of Light (50)
14th +14/+14/+19/+24 +9 +4 +4 Weapon of Light (2d6)
15th +15/+15/+20/+25 +9 +5 +5 Remove disease (4/rest), Smite evil (4/rest)

16th +16/+16/+21/+26 +10 +5 +5 -
17th +17/+17/+22/+27 +10 +5 +5 Weapon of Light (Burst x2)
18th +18/+18/+23/+28 +11 +6 +6 Remove disease (5/rest)

19th +19/+19/+24/+29 +11 +6 +6 Armor of Light (75)
20th +20/+20/+25/+30 +12 +6 +6 Weapon of Light (3d6), Smite evil (5/rest)


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~


Can I ask why the temporary hit points? They already have some of the best self healing in the game, why even bother with this?

The problem with dps on a paladin is all in the enchanments just about every other class has at least 4 damage tiers, paladins have 0. All there damage is coming from effects not adding to auctual damage that can be multiplied by critical hits. I am glad to see u doing something with them though.

This is my most important point. Smite evils r horrible they should be set up like adrenalines from fury of the wild . 17 critical threat range, u could keep the damage the same though some added light damage would be cool to smites as well. The way they r now u have to invest so much ap into them and they don't do enough damage to justify the cost at all. If u where to change smites to this I think it would fix ALOT of the problems with palis.

Btw I still play a "dps" paladin.

[Rathic]

Light burst should be on vorpal not on 20, semantics in most cases except for a SWF build with the proposed perfect single weapon fighting feat. Paladins need more synergies higher up.

[B0ltdrag0n]

The only reason it is a toggle is in the specific case you run into something that is healed by light. It should stack with everything.



It is difficult sometimes for us to communicate the larger plan, but picture these changes with plans to have some new trees; Vanguard (a weapon and shield DPS tree) and Shieldbearer (a weapon and shield mitigation tree).

Also, we plan to have the light damage scale with certain types of spell power. We are still working on the details of the spell power scaling.

Sev~


Might I recommend that at each level where you give the temporary HP and / or the levels where you gain the light damage you give paladins a bonus feat that must be selected from the 'shield' feats and/or toughness and Die Hard?

Right now they are still massively starved and even with the addition of trees Fighter will be better by far.


Also can you please add and modify the spell list? It is terrible.

[LeoLionxxx]

The Armour of Light looks pretty solid, though it might do to also put one at lv 2 (value of 10 temp hp).

The divine grace nerfs seem reasonable.

Extra light damage would serve well as a prestige ability. Besides that it seems like a good amount of damage to me.


My issue with TRing and committing to a paladin life has alwase been how restrictive it feels in term of feats and skill points.

It seems llike a few bonus feats here and there would be warranted; the paladin is both martial and divine so perhaps make the selection like the fighter one, and throw in magical training + some meta magics.

The skill points doesn't seem to be as much of an issue to the masses but it would certainly make it more appealing. Maybe if there were an ability thrown in somewhere to make levels past #X give points based on wisdom of charisma.

[Shade_z]

Keep the saves as they are right now, just add a requirement to have at least a shield/med armor to get those bonuses

[Thar]

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


The updated class table will look like this:

1st +1/+1/+6 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, Smite evil (1/rest), Follower of (your faith)
2nd +2/+2/+7 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, Lay on hands (1/rest)

3rd +3/+3/+8 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity

4th +4/+4/+9 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead

5th +5/+5/+10/+15 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil (2/rest)

6th +6/+6/+11/+16 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease (1/rest), Deity-based feat
7th +7/+7/+12/+17 +5 +2 +2 Armor of Light (25)
8th +8/+8/+13/+18 +6 +2 +2 Weapon of Light (1d6)
9th +9/+9/+14/+19 +6 +3 +3 Remove disease (2/rest)

10th +10/+10/+15/+20 +7 +3 +3 Smite evil (3/rest)

11th +11/+11/+16/+21 +7 +3 +3 Weapon of Light (Burst on 20)
12th +12/+12/+17/+22 +8 +4 +4 Remove disease (3/rest)

13th +13/+13/+18/+23 +8 +4 +4 Armor of Light (50)
14th +14/+14/+19/+24 +9 +4 +4 Weapon of Light (2d6)
15th +15/+15/+20/+25 +9 +5 +5 Remove disease (4/rest), Smite evil (4/rest)

16th +16/+16/+21/+26 +10 +5 +5 -
17th +17/+17/+22/+27 +10 +5 +5 Weapon of Light (Burst x2)
18th +18/+18/+23/+28 +11 +6 +6 Remove disease (5/rest)

19th +19/+19/+24/+29 +11 +6 +6 Armor of Light (75)
20th +20/+20/+25/+30 +12 +6 +6 Weapon of Light (3d6), Smite evil (5/rest)


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

take the smite evil and make it on a timer like other class abilities like manyshot.

and trash all the anti light armor and anti evasion changes you are making on the other thread.

[Monkey_Archer]

I think the cap on divine grace is fine.

I dont think any of the changes here are exciting enough to get folks rolling paladins again.

The problem isnt a few D6 of damage. THe fact that some dev thinks this is a game changing solution is disappointing.

The problem with Paladins is that they are a feat starved class with Bad PrE lines.
Agreed on the divine grace cap, even though my current main is going to be a bit sad :( , its a good change that makes sense.

From a heroic level standpoint I actually think the light damage is a great way to get paladins on equal footing with other classes. From an epic level stand point I agree that a few d6 is completely pointless. Epic levels are all about multipliers (the biggest of which being masters blitz, but also crits, adrenaline, etc..) So unless the long term balancing plan includes heavy nerfs to these epic base damage multipliers I don't see this helping much at all.

[mna]

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


Good thing it's a toggle, because otherwise it'd be a problem in those quests with targets you should NOT kill. But I hope it's not tied to any other stance or the like?
And it needs to be boosted by some sort of spell power, otherwise it'll be largely irrelevant in epics.

[rayworks]

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.



Not seeing the point of this one. Pallies don't lack survivability. They lack DPS. A typical fighter toon will put out sick DPS and kill 3 or 4 mobs while the Pally is left breathing hard after killing one in epics. Give the Pally better DPS.

[Monkey_Archer]

Divine Might is akward and ruins too many builds. All fighters should splash cleric/fvs/ or paldin levels for example to take advantage of the strength from divine might for e.g..
Agreed. Not only does it force most dps focused builds to splash, but it also limits the viability of dex or con based elf/dwarf/assassin/tempest builds. I'd like to see DM go back to being a flat attack/damage boost and also be limited by paladin/fvs/cleric levels much like divine grace. Perhaps cap it at 2 plus half your paladin level (+4 attack/damage for a level 4 splash and up to +12 for a pure paladin)

[CeltEireson]

I hadn't ready your other thread when I made this post. The idea of new trees interests me but I'm holding out for more details. :)

As far as spell power, would you consider making it based on positive energy since that is the only spell power Pallys are likely to invest anything in?

Doubt that's easily possible code wise but I'd suggest changing the light damage to good damage (as in the current version of good - i.e. damages anything not good aligned which covers almost all mobs).

Good damage makes more sense from a thematic point of view as all paladins are good aligned and it allows it to be affected by positive spell power which also benefits the paladins healing abilities. And investment in positive spell power means that the damage will scale with level in both heroics and epics. I'd also say at level 20 as well as the area burst effect you should add in a traditional single target burst effect i.e. say double damage on a critical again effected by spellpower.

[mna]

Not seeing the point of this one. Pallies don't lack survivability. They lack DPS. A typical fighter toon will put out sick DPS and kill 3 or 4 mobs while the Pally is left breathing hard after killing one in epics. Give the Pally better DPS.

... have something resembling Kensei's T5 features in KotC? For a start, say, a weapon-type multiselector or just working on whatever you have an Improved Critical for, that gets you an extra crit multiplier on Evil enemies with that kind of a weapon. Or maybe just *any* weapon actually...

I wouldn't be opposed to putting in another such that'd make some of those weapons centering, too.



Duh, it would even make some sort of sense for Paladins to be able to count as Centered while wearing at least some armor, but I understand that could be rather controversial...

[Impaqt]

Keep the saves as they are right now, just add a requirement to have at least a shield/med armor to get those bonuses

o.O

why would they do that? Paladins have no such restrictions.....

[LeoLionxxx]

This is my most important point. Smite evils r horrible they should be set up like adrenalines from fury of the wild . 17 critical threat range, u could keep the damage the same though some added light damage would be cool to smites as well. The way they r now u have to invest so much ap into them and they don't do enough damage to justify the cost at all. If u where to change smites to this I think it would fix ALOT of the problems with palis.

Btw I still play a "dps" paladin.


The damage amount I have no qualms about - it's a heroic ability, meaning it's allowed to be relatively weak. However, your post did get me thinking about how the smite attack works.


From the wiki:

Once per rest period, a Paladin may attempt to Smite evil with one normal melee attack. The number of times a Paladin can Smite Evil increases by 1 at level 5 and 10 and can be further increased by taking the Extra Smite Evil Enhancement. Smite evil also recharges at the rate of 1 every 90 seconds.

Adds Charisma modifier x 2 to your attack roll (that uses the best attack bonus in a normal attack sequence) and deals extra damage based on your paladin level. A Paladin with 12 Charisma (+1 modifier) and BAB 0 would add 2 (1 x 2 + 0) to the attack roll. A Paladin with 20 CHA (+5 modifier) and BAB 10 would add 30 (5 x 2 + 20) to the attack roll (because the 4th attack is at BAB+10 = 20).

The extra damage done is 7 + (3 x paladin level). For example a 6th level paladin does 7 + (3 x 6) (or 25) extra damage on a successful smite. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, or is not in range, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up.


My main issue with trying to use Smite Evil is how to physically use it. You tap the key and it's an automatic attack like Trip or Maul. However, if the enemy moves or is killed, the attack is wasted. With the a fore mentioned abilities, this isn't much of an issue - wait 5 or 10 seconds and you're good to go. However, with Smite, you might need to wait up to 90 seconds before trying another one (and/or further expend your cache of them). As well, if the enemy is not evil, if it is a rat or a robot, the smite will not work. I speak from first hand experience when I say this wastefulness is frustrating. Thus, using some of that technology developed for MotU, I suggest smite evil be made to work more like Adrenalin (from the Fury of the wild destiny (http://ddowiki.com/page/Fury_of_the_Wild)) in terms of how it is set up:

You use the ability and gain a temporary buff (that goes away when you attack) making your next strike infused with the holy energy. This extra damage applies to anything you hit - be it foul demon, sewer rat or giant pile of snow - so that it is infinitely more useful.

I feel this would be a good step in making paladins more desirable to play :)

[Rautis]

It's good to hear that paladins are getting some attention. I don't agree with adding abilities that can't be found from Player's Handbook into core class. With enhancements I'm ok with mostly anything, and also house ruling different abilities differently(like quivering palm and most of the monk). Ofcourse there's already stuff that's very different, like artificer runearms(which I liked) and such. This one however feels like it's glued on top of Paladin Class. Focus on improving existing Paladin abilities instead.


Have paladin smite evil bonus damage multiply by extra 100% every time extra smite from class levels is gained
smite bonus damagex2 at 5, x3 at 10, x4 at 15 and x5 at 20 and maybe x6 with any +5 paladin caster level ED active This way Paladin Smite feels very much worth it and chain smiting with exalted smite actually hurts. Multiplier could be adjusted to balance this if 100% every 5 pally levels feels too much

Also, remove the stupid animation from basic smite evil. It ruins your DPS and might scare people away from smites.


I already like how cure disease gains greater restoration through enhancements. I use it alot.


For turn undead there's not much to do. Divine might is nice. Formula could take your paladin level into account somehow.

I agree with capping Divine Grace saves bonus. Cap could be even lower like 2+2xlevel. +8 bonus to saves from charisma with 2+3xlevel means that level 2 splash can benefit from 26 charisma. That's like 16+2 tome+8 item. That's about what starting paladins will have when they hit level 20 unless they put levelups into charisma too.

[Irongutz2000]

The damage amount I have no qualms about - it's a heroic ability, meaning it's allowed to be relatively weak. However, your post did get me thinking about how the smite attack works.


From the wiki:


My main issue with trying to use Smite Evil is how to physically use it. You tap the key and it's an automatic attack like Trip or Maul. However, if the enemy moves or is killed, the attack is wasted. With the a fore mentioned abilities, this isn't much of an issue - wait 5 or 10 seconds and you're good to go. However, with Smite, you might need to wait up to 90 seconds before trying another one (and/or further expend your cache of them). As well, if the enemy is not evil, if it is a rat or a robot, the smite will not work. I speak from first hand experience when I say this wastefulness is frustrating. Thus, using some of that technology developed for MotU, I suggest smite evil be made to work more like Adrenalin (from the Fury of the wild destiny (http://ddowiki.com/page/Fury_of_the_Wild)) in terms of how it is set up:

You use the ability and gain a temporary buff (that goes away when you attack) making your next strike infused with the holy energy. This extra damage applies to anything you hit - be it foul demon, sewer rat or giant pile of snow - so that it is infinitely more useful.

I feel this would be a good step in making paladins more desirable to play :)
Yep! ty for seeing my point

[OverlordOfRats]

Add in some bonus feats while you are changing the core class.

A choice from a list of feats at LV 5,10,15 and 20. Or, pick a weapon style (THF, TWF, SWF) at LV 2,6,11 like Rangers get with TWF.

[Qhualor]

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


The updated class table will look like this:

1st +1/+1/+6 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, Smite evil (1/rest), Follower of (your faith)
2nd +2/+2/+7 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, Lay on hands (1/rest)

3rd +3/+3/+8 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity

4th +4/+4/+9 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead

5th +5/+5/+10/+15 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil (2/rest)

6th +6/+6/+11/+16 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease (1/rest), Deity-based feat
7th +7/+7/+12/+17 +5 +2 +2 Armor of Light (25)
8th +8/+8/+13/+18 +6 +2 +2 Weapon of Light (1d6)
9th +9/+9/+14/+19 +6 +3 +3 Remove disease (2/rest)

10th +10/+10/+15/+20 +7 +3 +3 Smite evil (3/rest)

11th +11/+11/+16/+21 +7 +3 +3 Weapon of Light (Burst on 20)
12th +12/+12/+17/+22 +8 +4 +4 Remove disease (3/rest)

13th +13/+13/+18/+23 +8 +4 +4 Armor of Light (50)
14th +14/+14/+19/+24 +9 +4 +4 Weapon of Light (2d6)
15th +15/+15/+20/+25 +9 +5 +5 Remove disease (4/rest), Smite evil (4/rest)

16th +16/+16/+21/+26 +10 +5 +5 -
17th +17/+17/+22/+27 +10 +5 +5 Weapon of Light (Burst x2)
18th +18/+18/+23/+28 +11 +6 +6 Remove disease (5/rest)

19th +19/+19/+24/+29 +11 +6 +6 Armor of Light (75)
20th +20/+20/+25/+30 +12 +6 +6 Weapon of Light (3d6), Smite evil (5/rest)


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

i really like these ideas. personally, ive never had any big issues with pure Paladin of the non BF variety. their survivability is really good if built and played right. 2 levels of Monk, even with minimal dex, is dang near unkillable. their dps, not really through the roof, but not terrible either. the biggest issue I had was how Smites was the best dps for Paladins and you can run out of those fast, even if you spend the points for fastest regen and max the number of possible Smites.

[jakeelala]

1. Weapon of Light needs to be Good Damage, not Light Damage

2. Weapon of GOOD needs to be At least d6/2 Levels, similar to Sneak Attack damage. It should allow positive Spell power to affect the damage. At least the vorpal burst of it. 10d6*4.0 (400 Pos SP) = 140 Damage on a 20 is barely scratching the damage surface, but it's a nice addition.

3. Divine Grace should allow 1 for 1 Cha Mod to saves capped by Pally level, plus a base of 5 to start. By Pally 12, make it uncapped. Simple really. 11 levels of Paladin would be capped at +16.

4. What you really need to do to fix paladins is to rework Smite Evil completely. It's terribly underpowered and runs out much too fast. Smite evil should basically work like a miniature Adrenaline from the Fury of the Wild Tree. Click it to activate on your next attack, allowing to affect your next attack, like say, a Divine Sacrifice. Have it also regen on Vorpal.

Or alternatively, 5% or 10% chance on being damaged to regenerate. If you wanted to make a defensive version, you could have be a click that reflects ALL damage from the next successful attack on the Paladin back at the attacker. Put enhancements in trees that would magnify the damage further. Eventually, at end game and well geared, a Level 20 Paladin should be able to shield a Raid Boss attack that reflects that damage back to the raid boss somehow. That would be cool. Like redirecting a dragons breath or wing buffet at itself.

If you implemented ALL of what I just wrote alone, Paladins still might not be worth rollings, especially pure versions, but they might be a lot closer.

[arminius]

Whatever light or good damage you add, please test it vs. Celestia before shipping it out.

In fact, while you're at it, please fix Celestia so that no additional type of damage messes it up.

I have a BF Pal 2/Sorc X that would be very sad about the Divine Grace change. But my melee pallies are either pure or 2 levels of fighter. I do agree with the others who note that the damage for epics is meh.

[Psiandron]

Interesting ideas, but I'm curious about the relationship of this new "Weapons of Light" ability to turns. Current, iirc, it is a channel divinity option, which means that it uses up a paladin's turns, as does Divine Might. I haven't had tremendous trouble with DPS on a pally(yeah, it's nothing like what you can do in other classes, but it was sufficient for killing and pally has the most amazing survivability); however, if Divine Mights are going to suffer from these changes, then you might as well not even bother. A pally without DM (even with these changes) would still just be a meal in a can.

I didn't see you mention fixing weapons of good. What's the scoop with that?

Still reserving judgment, but I have to say that I'm intrigued. The limitation to Divine grace doesn't seem too bad. Mainly a bit of a nerf to Sorcs and some FVS's who splash for the saves boost. Cutting into it any deeper would hardly seem fair given the huge takeaway people get from 2 level splashes of monk or rogue. Imo anyway.

[Battlehawke]

The point of the light damage is to allow it to work with ED's & Magic Enhancement's, therefore I like it!


1. Weapon of Light needs to be Good Damage, not Light Damage

2. Weapon of GOOD needs to be At least d6/2 Levels, similar to Sneak Attack damage. It should allow positive Spell power to affect the damage. At least the vorpal burst of it. 10d6*4.0 (400 Pos SP) = 140 Damage on a 20 is barely scratching the damage surface, but it's a nice addition.

3. Divine Grace should allow 1 for 1 Cha Mod to saves capped by Pally level, plus a base of 5 to start. By Pally 12, make it uncapped. Simple really. 11 levels of Paladin would be capped at +16.

4. What you really need to do to fix paladins is to rework Smite Evil completely. It's terribly underpowered and runs out much too fast. Smite evil should basically work like a miniature Adrenaline from the Fury of the Wild Tree. Click it to activate on your next attack, allowing to affect your next attack, like say, a Divine Sacrifice. Have it also regen on Vorpal.

Or alternatively, 5% or 10% chance on being damaged to regenerate. If you wanted to make a defensive version, you could have be a click that reflects ALL damage from the next successful attack on the Paladin back at the attacker. Put enhancements in trees that would magnify the damage further. Eventually, at end game and well geared, a Level 20 Paladin should be able to shield a Raid Boss attack that reflects that damage back to the raid boss somehow. That would be cool. Like redirecting a dragons breath or wing buffet at itself.

If you implemented ALL of what I just wrote alone, Paladins still might not be worth rollings, especially pure versions, but they might be a lot closer.

[Severlin]

Interesting ideas, but I'm curious about the relationship of this new "Weapons of Light" ability to turns. Current, iirc, it is a channel divinity option, which means that it uses up a paladin's turns, as does Divine Might. I haven't had tremendous trouble with DPS on a pally(yeah, it's nothing like what you can do in other classes, but it was sufficient for killing and pally has the most amazing survivability); however, if Divine Mights are going to suffer from these changes, then you might as well not even bother. A pally without DM (even with these changes) would still just be a meal in a can.

I didn't see you mention fixing weapons of good. What's the scoop with that?

Still reserving judgment, but I have to say that I'm intrigued. The limitation to Divine grace doesn't seem too bad. Mainly a bit of a nerf to Sorcs and some FVS's who splash for the saves boost. Cutting into it any deeper would hardly seem fair given the huge takeaway people get from 2 level splashes of monk or rogue. Imo anyway.

Weapon of Light is not charged. It just happens, with a chance to burst, on every melee hit. It shouldn't affect or use up turns at all.

Sev~

[EllisDee37]

Paladins desperately need help, but I'm not a huge fan of the direction you're going with the help. Here's a repost of my recommendation to fix paladins, which I stand by:


Paladin - Knight of the Chalice
Slayer of Evil I and II now add damage to Undead, Evil Outsiders and Aberrations, instead of choosing either undead or evil outsiders.
Courage of Heaven and Courage of Heaven II give +0.5[W] instead of +1d6 untyped damage.
Exalted Smite III now recovers 1 smite evil for any attack roll of 20 with confirmed critical hit. This applies to all attacks, not just smites.
Divine Might is now a morale bonus.
Divine Sacrifice gives +1[W] per tier in addition to the listed light damage.
Passion now applies to all evil mobs instead of just undead.
Censure Demons changed to Censure Evil, applies to all evil mobs instead of just demons.
Censure Outsiders changed to Censure Unbelievers, applies to all non-good mobs instead of just chaotic and/or evil outsiders.
Holy Retribution no longer uses turn undead. Cooldown increased to 15 seconds.


Consider my 15/5 pally/rogue sireth build. As a staff build he gets no shield, and as an evasion build he gets only light armor. So the SD tree isn't available to him. That's totally fine and fair; the 5 rogue splash is a tradeoff. I get that. But consider the KotC tree, and how utterly terrible it is compared to the thief-acrobat tree.

What do the KotC tree abilities work on? Evil Outsiders and Undead. They may as well not even exist when running, say, Druid's Deep. Now consider the thief-acrobat's bonuses to any staff's crit profile, plus the +25% doublestrike 10 out of every 12 seconds. What, exactly, does doublestrike NOT work against? The KotC abilities are far too limiting. Thus my recommendations quoted above, which I stand behind.


Another thing to consider is how when I'm blitzing through content, sireth is doing ~333 base damage, ~1000 damage on crits, and it crits on 13-20. What do I care about any amount of d6 light damage per swing? What, my 1000 damage crits will skyrocket to 1030? You see how worthless that is, right?

Make the bonuses +[W], not light damage, please. How about +0.1[W] per paladin level? That makes a 5-splash get to +0.5[W], or a pure get +2[W]. That will start to help in a meaningful way, plus it will scale much better than the proposed light damage.

EDIT: It's not just blitzing, but also the "blitz-lite" pale imitation of blitz in the Divine Crusader tree. It, like blitz, gives a bonus to your base damage plus an equal bonus to doublestrike. The light damage would be boosted by doublestrike but gains nothing from the base damage bonus. This makes the light damage a drop in the bucket.

[thesnoman]

Greetings,

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

What you WILL DO with this version of the proposed change:



For any non-sorcerer you have accomplished NOTHING! You have limited this to getting 8 total charisma bonus for 2 Paladin levels, which is the typical "splash" everyone takes to boost their saves. For any non-sorcerer, this is trivial since most non-sorcerers will barely hit the 26 CHA required to get the +8 to saves, (Charisma dumped toon = 8 Base +10 Item + 3 Exceptional Item +5 Tome = 26), thus not crippling ANY non-sorcerer.
Destroyed the "pally splash" Sorcerer - This is really the only class that is affected by this proposed change. You are taking a benefit that has been around forever to Sorcerers and flushed it. The only non-paladin builds that have a high enough Charisma to benefit from Divine Grace is the Sorcerer.
Torqued off any Pally-splashed Sorcerer that already had to deal with adding Intelligence to their build for the Spellcraft skill and the worst capstones available in the game.


What you HAVE NOT DONE :

Addressed the need for splashing Pally in the first place (the stupid high saves required for Epic Elite difficulty)


So - if your goal is to alienate a large population of casters - or force them into changing their builds to "monk splash" in order to be viable in EE content - please continue with this change. (BTW - nothing screams "money grab" like eliminating a benefit from a free class (Paladin) to force players that want to play the highest level content into purchasing a "paid" class (Monk)

If - on the other hand - you want to do something to FIX the game: Address the NEED for ridiculously high saves in EE. I'm not longing for old times, but look back at when the level cap was 20...Epic was well balanced for all classes...this is what's needed - thought and planning - NOT silly nerfs that are targeting specific classes under the guise of improving an existing class.

[EllisDee37]

More thoughts...

Love the thoughts on divine grace; the 2-splash for saves needs a serious nerf. +8 may be a touch high; I like the suggestions in thread that cap a 2-splash at +6.

Do something similar for divine might, and for goodness sake change it to a morale bonus. How about the divine might bonus is capped at (native class level)*2. So if you have 2 pally you only get a max of +4 strength from divine might. A pure could get up to +40, which really just means "uncapped." A 4-cleric or fvs splash for ameliorating strike could get up to +8 strength from divine might. And because it's changed to a morale bonus, you get ALL the bonus instead of losing out on 2 to 4 due to it not stacking with items.

Regarding the temporary hitpoints thing, how about on any use of lay on hands, paladin cure spell, turn undead or remove disease? As a defensive ability it seems discordant with working on smite evil, an active attack. Having it work on remove disease is a great idea, kudos on that. Turn Undead is irrelevant; paladins only use turns for divine might. But native cure spells would make 4, 8 and 11 pally levels more attractive in terms of splashing.

[Psiandron]

Weapon of Light is not charged. It just happens, with a chance to burst, on every melee hit. It shouldn't affect or use up turns at all.

Sev~

Tres cool.

And weapons of good from the KotC capstone?

(Lolz, struck me as funny that I was asking about the capstone ability there. It's not like you're likely to make the capstone worth more than splashing something else would yield. Oh well.)

[Desonde]

I like the changes, not enough to make me think about going more than 8 levels in it, but it is started to get me to think of reasons to go more than 3 levels.

As for the saves the only thing I ask is, are you going to look at the amounts required to save against certain things? There is no reason why a Rogue should fail a trap save with a roll of 65 in anything but CR 27-32 dungeons.

If you limit the only thing that allows players to not fail 95% of the time on saves there is an issue in the design. I like the save cap being linked to paladin levels (and 8 should be a big bonus, the fact that it's even considered as anything but underlies the issue with the system).

[count_spicoli]

I like some of these changes. I actually have 3 pally lives and think there dps is not all that bad. If they increase it too much it could get to a point where noone would ever play any other melee class. I mean if you give them ftr monk barb dps plus all there survivability who would play any thing else.

The fact that as a non shield wearer I can actually invest in the Dos enhancement tree helps quite a bit. Right now if I am a twf pally there is hardly any thing in the DOS tree that I can invest in. The light dmg is ok for heroics but probably not great for epics.

The divine grace change is good and long coming. Should Def scale with pally levels.

Smite evil Def needs some help and there are 2 good suggestions here. A timer like many shot is a good one. Also like the idea of making them like fury where it is on next attack and maybe make them recharge on a vorpal. Maybe even add in on a crit it stuns the mob or something. Some type of cc for a pally would be cool.

Also the spell reworking is a good idea. I mean why does divine favor cap at +3. Make it every 3 pally levels with no cap. Maybe even add In a couple more cool spells. Maybe even give pally extend as a class feat at level 9 or something. Having to recast spells every 2 minutes on a pally because you couldn't fit extend is pretty annoying.

Overall I like some of the changes and like the idea you guys are taking a look.

Next hopefully barbs. My main suggestion for barbs is massive hp totals. For a barb in ee to be even somewhat survivable they should be sporting 2500 hp. I mean a self healing caster can get 800-1000. Currently a hp chewing barb might have 1400. Not enough.

[EllisDee37]

Smite evil [...] Maybe even add in on a crit it stuns the mob or something. Some type of cc for a pally would be cool.Paladins actually have a very well balanced CC effect, but it inexplicably only works on demons, or (if you commit to a truly terrible tier 5 tree in KotC) demons AND devils. Woohoo!

In my suggestion list (which I see is missing the "uncap divine favor" suggestion you mentioned, which is another great long-overdue idea) I addressed the censure problem with:

Censure Demons (tier 4) becomes Censure Evil, now works on all evil mobs instead of just demons
Censure Outsiders (tier 5) becomes Censure Unbelievers, now works on all non-good mobs instead of just demons and devils

The "Censure" effect is "3 second stun on any vorpal." This is not overpowered, but it is enough of an effect to matter. I ran with it from 18-21 on my current life just to test it out in terms of balance. If it worked on non-good (essentially everything) then it might make KotC tier 5 actually worth taking.

[count_spicoli]

Paladins actually have a very well balanced CC effect, but it inexplicably only works on demons, or (if you commit to a truly terrible tier 5 tree in KotC) demons AND devils. Woohoo!

In my suggestion list (which I see is missing the "uncap divine favor" suggestion you mentioned, which is another great long-overdue idea) I addressed the censure problem with:

Censure Demons (tier 4) becomes Censure Evil, now works on all evil mobs instead of just demons
Censure Outsiders (tier 5) becomes Censure Unbelievers, now works on all non-good mobs instead of just demons and devils

The "Censure" effect is "3 second stun on any vorpal." This is not overpowered, but it is enough of an effect to matter. I ran with it from 18-21 on my current life just to test it out in terms of balance. If it worked on non-good (essentially everything) then it might make KotC tier 5 actually worth taking.

Good suggestions I like them.

[LordTigerDawn]

What you WILL DO with this version of the proposed change:



For any non-sorcerer you have accomplished NOTHING! You have limited this to getting 8 total charisma bonus for 2 Paladin levels, which is the typical "splash" everyone takes to boost their saves. For any non-sorcerer, this is trivial since most non-sorcerers will barely hit the 26 CHA required to get the +8 to saves, (Charisma dumped toon = 8 Base +10 Item + 3 Exceptional Item +5 Tome = 26), thus not crippling ANY non-sorcerer.
Destroyed the "pally splash" Sorcerer - This is really the only class that is affected by this proposed change. You are taking a benefit that has been around forever to Sorcerers and flushed it. The only non-paladin builds that have a high enough Charisma to benefit from Divine Grace is the Sorcerer.
Torqued off any Pally-splashed Sorcerer that already had to deal with adding Intelligence to their build for the Spellcraft skill and the worst capstones available in the game.


What you HAVE NOT DONE :

Addressed the need for splashing Pally in the first place (the stupid high saves required for Epic Elite difficulty)


So - if your goal is to alienate a large population of casters - or force them into changing their builds to "monk splash" in order to be viable in EE content - please continue with this change. (BTW - nothing screams "money grab" like eliminating a benefit from a free class (Paladin) to force players that want to play the highest level content into purchasing a "paid" class (Monk)

If - on the other hand - you want to do something to FIX the game: Address the NEED for ridiculously high saves in EE. I'm not longing for old times, but look back at when the level cap was 20...Epic was well balanced for all classes...this is what's needed - thought and planning - NOT silly nerfs that are targeting specific classes under the guise of improving an existing class.

I would add more, but I second all that is said here. Not sure why even when trying to fix paladins, nerfing paladins is still being done.

[JP457]

Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.





So a 20th lvl Pally gets +62 saves? 2 + (3 x 20 Pally lvls) = 62

[Vellrad]

All elemental weapon damage need to scale with spellpower.

So, impulse increase force, light increase law/chaos/good/evil/light, combustion increase fire, glaciation increase cold, etc.

[EllisDee37]

So a 20th lvl Pally gets +62 saves? 2 + (3 x 20 Pally lvls) = 62hehheh, if he has 134 charisma, sure.

[Ivan_Milic]

Severlin can you introduce yourself because nobody knows who you are.

[thegreatneil]

So a 20th lvl Pally gets +62 saves? 2 + (3 x 20 Pally lvls) = 62

If you have a CHA of 130 something sure

Edit: ninja ed

[pesch1991]

Whats wrong with you ? Have you gone Mad ? Why do you intend to nerf divine Grace ? +8 is a joke i can hit 40+ on my fighter Splash and thats what it Takes to survive in epic elite content you need high saves evasion and epic Reflexes yes its that hard just Take a Look at fire on thunder peak red dragon can 1 shot you on a failed Save IN EPIC NORMAL now you take +8 to all saves Away from me ? If you really do i will quit because i have Spent a Lot time and effort to get the gear i need in Order to reach a high Cha on a melee to boost my strength and saves People really dont Understand and ask for more Nerfs seriously i cant take this anymore why not nerf monkchers instead ? They can solo epic elite Raids melees will Never be able to do that and they also hit for 30k + Through manyshot/10k stars and slayer STOP NERFING MELEEs already and help us instead

[axel15810]

One thing I'll say is that I think Bladeforged Reconstruct should be a feature of the paladin class. I think you should considering changing Bladeforged reconstruct to require 12 paladin levels. Perhaps give them repair light at level 1 pally, moderate at level 4 pally and repair serious at 8 pally.

That would give paladins their self-healing advantage back that was negated when all classes had access to cocoon, an ability equal to or better than lay on hands.

The divine grace nerf is OK with me. Honestly, +8 from 2 pally sounds about right but if you do this you must adjust saving throws required in epic elite to save against spell damage. Right now saves + evasion is the only way to stay alive in epic elite. You don't want to change the game so nobody any longer has a reason to run evasion builds.

[pesch1991]

One thing I'll say is that I think Bladeforged Reconstruct should be a feature of the paladin class. I think you should considering changing Bladeforged reconstruct to require 12 paladin levels. Perhaps give them repair light at level 1 pally, moderate at level 4 pally and repair serious at 8 pally.

That would give paladins their self-healing advantage back that was negated when all classes had access to cocoon, an ability equal to or better than lay on hands.

The divine grace nerf is OK with me. Honestly, +8 from 2 pally sounds about right but if you do this you must adjust saving throws required in epic elite to save against spell damage. Right now saves + evasion is the only way to stay alive in epic elite. You don't want to change the game so nobody any longer has a reason to run evasion builds.

They will Never adjust Saving throws in EE if they really change it i will loose +8 to all saves that means epic Reflexes = useless Rolling a 1 no Auto fail but with lower saves you will fail anyway and get killed

[Qhualor]

Paladins actually have a very well balanced CC effect, but it inexplicably only works on demons, or (if you commit to a truly terrible tier 5 tree in KotC) demons AND devils. Woohoo!

In my suggestion list (which I see is missing the "uncap divine favor" suggestion you mentioned, which is another great long-overdue idea) I addressed the censure problem with:

Censure Demons (tier 4) becomes Censure Evil, now works on all evil mobs instead of just demons
Censure Outsiders (tier 5) becomes Censure Unbelievers, now works on all non-good mobs instead of just demons and devils

The "Censure" effect is "3 second stun on any vorpal." This is not overpowered, but it is enough of an effect to matter. I ran with it from 18-21 on my current life just to test it out in terms of balance. If it worked on non-good (essentially everything) then it might make KotC tier 5 actually worth taking.

Censure demons is almost a permanent stun. Expanding it to work on "unbelievers" and any evil mobs would be too much, IMO. I do like the idea of additional damage or something like that for evil mobs.

[pesch1991]

Ill guess he plays a pali splashed sorc.

12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin

[LuKaSu]

I'm really excited to see Paladins getting the attention! Thank you!

That being said, I think the big reason that I think people stop at two levels of Paladin is that they don't get enough from the higher core abilities. If those had a review, we might be able to make Paladins desired members of groups again.

Several weeks ago, I posted an idea that I had to help out the group-desirability of Paladins. It's a new PrE called the "Battlefield Commander". I thought it might help out.


This idea for a Paladin enhancement tree functions with the idea that Paladins work the best in groups. The theme is centered around the idea that more people in the group will cause this Paladin to perform better, and he will cause his group to perform better as well.


Core
1 - Leadership Training - You receive +1 to your Intimidate skill, and all allies within Aura range (roughly the size of the Haste spell) receive 1 AC for each core ability taken in this tree. (Total of +6 Intimidate and 6 AC boost at cap)
3 - Officer Training -- Increase CHA or STR by 1.
6 - Brothers in Arms - Each Ally within Aura range receives +1 Damage. The Paladin receives +1 Damage for each Player Character ally within Aura range (stacks up to 3) Lasts 4 seconds. Reapplies every 3 seconds.
12 - Unending Resolve - Grants the "Slippery Mind" feat. Will saves are increased by 2 when below 50% hitpoints.
18 - Positive Energy Burst - As per the Radiant Servant, Level 6 Core ability type, but using Paladin Levels
20 - In the Time of Need - Gain +2 Strength. Damage bonuses and stack limits from "Brothers in Arms" are doubled.

Tier 1
-- Improved Leadership Training - Your Intimidate and Diplomacy skills are increased by (1/2/3)
-- Shield Other -- While you block, All Allies in Aura range receive 3/6/10 PPR
-- Tough as Nails -- Gain 5/10/15 Hit Points
-- Honesty -- +1 hit against evil opponents

Tier 2
-- To the Last Man - The Paladin gains +1 Damage, +2 AC, and +3 PPR when in Aura range of a dead or incapacitated ally. (Stacks up to 1/3/5 times)
-- Compassion for the Fallen -- Paladin level counts as 1/2/3 levels higher when calculating damage for Lay on Hands.
-- Battefield Triage -- Heal skill is increased by 1/2/3
-- Humility -- +1 hit against evil opponents

Tier 3
-- Watch Each Other's Back -- Use an Action Boost to give each Ally within Aura Range a 2/4/6% Dodge Bonus for 20 seconds.
-- Advanced Martial Training -- Receive +1/2/2 Attack bonus for all Martial Weapons, and 0/0/1 Damage bonus.
-- Obvious Determination -- Intimidate skill and Will Saves are increased by 1/2/3.
-- Truth -- +1 hit against evil opponents


Tier 4
-- Calling in the Cavalry -- Each Ally within Aura range receives a 5%/10% movement speed increase
-- Advanced Officer Training -- Increase all CHA-based skills by 1/2/3.
-- Together, We Shall Conquer -- Each Ally within Aura range receives a Flanking Damage bonus of +2/+3/+4.
-- Honor -- +1 hit against evil opponents

Tier 5
-- Energy of the Zealot -- Your Positive Spellpower is increased by 10/15/20 and you gain 20/40/40 maximum spellpoints. At rank 3, you gain the Magical Training feat.
-- Phallanx Formation -- Each Ally within Aura Range gains 5%/10%/15% Fortification and 5%/10%/15% boost to the effectiveness of their shields
-- Into the Fray! - Increases your movement speed by your Charisma Modifier %, capped by Paladin level. (Example: with a charisma modifier of 10, you increase your movement speed by 10%)
-- Faith -- When wielding your religion's favored weapon, it gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement Bonus.
-- Hope for the Hopeless - Adds the spell "Good Hope" to the Paladin Spell list as a level 3 spell

I'm not expecting this to be implemented or anything, but the concept, I believe is important: The group should become better by having a Paladin with them. I know we like to complain about lacking personal DPS on Paladins, but if we could increase group DPS by having a Pally in the group, I think it would rock. If the Paladin DPS stays the same-ish, but the addition of a Paladin to a group increases the total DPS, with all their survivability and self-healing, I think that'd be great.

[Qhualor]

If this was said already, I will say it too. More/better paladin spells.

I'm sure its me and how I build Paladins, but I never had good Turn Undead. Its nice that you can do additional damage when using Turns, but at level I'm lucky if I can ever Turn Undead. I've seen lots of other Paladin players the same way which is why I would suggest looking into it. I don't think it should be as powerful as a Clerics can be, but I don't think it should suck.

[unbongwah]

As a staff build he gets no shield, and as an evasion build he gets only light armor. So the SD tree isn't available to him.
The Imp Sacred Defensive stance bonuses (+PRR/saves/threat) work fine without shields; the Gtr Sacred Defensive stance bonuses don't (CON/STR/HPs), same as Stalwart Defender. For 12 APs you can pick up +25 PRR, +3 to saves, Div Righteousness, +50% threat amp, and 3 extra LoHs.

Other than that, I agree with you. :)

Censure demons is almost a permanent stun.
In what way? It only procs on vorpal strikes, which last time I checked is 5% of all atks. Are you able to make 20 atks in 3 secs? Plus it has to be born in mind what you're giving up by taking T5 KotC; that means no Keen Edge, no Staff or Knife Spec, etc. It seems a reasonable tradeoff.

[Sebastrd]

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

I don't think either suggestion changes anything. I like the temp HP and light damage, but they're not enough. Damage in endgame is all about base damage and multipliers. Paladins need something to boost their base damage.

The change to Divine Grace is unnecessary. Getting anything over a +8 requires some investment in Charisma, whether through class/race features or specialized gear, so why bother nerfing it? Focus your attention on making Paladin more attractive, not on forcing deeper splashes for its few benefits.

[EllisDee37]

Censure demons is almost a permanent stun. Expanding it to work on "unbelievers" and any evil mobs would be too much, IMO. I do like the idea of additional damage or something like that for evil mobs.It's really not. Granted I was using THF, so only 56% of the procs of a TWF or 77% of the procs of a SWF, but it wasn't very frequent at all. Nowhere even remotely close to every mob.

I switched it in for testing at 18 and kept it until 21 so that I could give the proc rate a fair test through vale, amrath, xoriat (second madness chain), and the demonweb.

I could be convinced to have it work only on mainhand procs, but it needs to work on all evil mobs (tier 4) and all non-good mobs (tier 5) to be worth spending even 2 AP on it.

[Karadon_II]

I know "change" sends waves of panic through people because more often than not with Turbine it means "nerf", but some of these changes being discussed here [and in the damage mitigation thread] seem offer more benefits than nerfs this time and I'm honestly surprised that Turbine are opening considering some true Paladin love after some dark years.

The discussion seems to be on the right track to fixing what I think is certainly a sub-optimal if not outright 'broken' class. IMHO it was never equal to others in the game and has in fact deteriorated over the years. Don't get me wrong, I love the class, I love playing a Paladin - I've played pretty much the same character since the release in '06 and never changed his concept - but that said in many ways it got harder to progress as the game got older. I think the game can be challenging enough at times for an old warhorse like me without being hamstrung by the developers on top of it.

Thankfully I earned enough player experience and funnelled most of my resources into gear improvements to retain some sembalance of what I feel a Paladin should be. Perhaps now if some of these changes are implimented Paladins will achieve some measure of lost glory, and maybe even more?

I don't too to much by way of number crunching but there are a few things I'd like to address.

1. As mentioned a couple of times already, the famous Divine Might nerf needs to be addressed. It's fine for Heroic levels but when you hit epic and start getting insight bonus STR gear it won't stack. If it can't be a 'sacred bonus' as it was or a 'morale bonus' like many other abilities then create a new kind of bonuse like 'Divine bonus' or 'Devout bonus' or something. There are even little used bonuses like 'Psionic bonus' that could be used. It was incredibly insulting to have a dev say at the time something along the lines of - 'there will be other ways for Paladins to achive more strength'....

2. Paladins do pretty much the same base damage to Neutral and Evil enemies unless you use smite evil, wield certain weapons or make use of the KOTC lines but even that's pretty limited to outsiders and undead. There should be a non-enhancement core class progression that increases DPS vs Evil similar to the 2nd/4th/6th core enhancements of the KOTC line. This may be more paladin-like than the proposed light damage which would seem to be more in the Cleric/FvS's bag. Light damage would damage neutral enemies as well but good alligned inate damage would only do more damage to evil not neutrals. Paladins shouldn't be doing inate damage against vermin or angry puppies.

3. I know this really isn't a fix-the-enhancements thread but I must add in - when I originally heard that Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice were being "merged" I can't have been the only one thinking that this was great because now Paladin enhancements would affect BOTH Undead AND Evil Outsiders as the two most hated foe types. My heart sank when I realised that this was to be an either/or senario with it only applying to only one or the other. I think there is enough diversity with enemies in the game to have the KOTC affect both Undead and Evil Outsiders we vow to rid such evil in equal measure and should not have to pick one.

4. I know this is a pretty far-fetched idea but I think Paladins should automatically see hidden opponents of evil allignment. Not see through magical invisibility, but just basic hidden enemies like evil Rogues and Ghouls. Hidden vermin and neutral rogues etc. will always evade a Paladin's gaze. However I think if this even could be addressed, I fear it would undo the work done in the past year regarding, sneaking and moving silently etc. so it may be well to leave alone.

If the changes discussed here [or rather in this thread as a whole and some of what I'm saying could be considerd insane] see the light then I'm confident that I will no longer need to retain the fighter levels I've taken in 3rd life for additional DPS and may even return to a pure paladin again! I think whatever the changes, they will do more good than harm this time.

[NaturalHazard]

I don't see people being excited about 3d6 light damage to roll up paladins, all these changes are going to do is make less paladin splashes 2-6 level splashes of paladin. Meh big deal, it will however appease those who have been howling and wailing about divine grace big deal, people will just find other ways to adapt their builds, probably drop paladin levels altogether and try for improved evasion or whatever.

Temp HP......meh depends on the content in epic I guess it will mitigate some of the first hit then will be gone till you use the abilities again and unless you can spam them indefinately quickly I don't see it having that much of a positive effect. Heck the temp hp from cocoon is way better.

[NaturalHazard]

Whatever is decided, a 2 level Pally splash should be better than going Half Elf Pally Dilettante...

Paladin class is free but half elves are not so..............I can see the reasoning there.

[Qhualor]

It's really not. Granted I was using THF, so only 56% of the procs of a TWF or 77% of the procs of a SWF, but it wasn't very frequent at all. Nowhere even remotely close to every mob.

I switched it in for testing at 18 and kept it until 21 so that I could give the proc rate a fair test through vale, amrath, xoriat (second madness chain), and the demonweb.

I could be convinced to have it work only on mainhand procs, but it needs to work on all evil mobs (tier 4) and all non-good mobs (tier 5) to be worth spending even 2 AP on it.

I've done it both TWF and THF. The only real problem I seemed to have was with Hezrous. Cats, devils, Shakawhatchamacallits, Reavers and orthons were almost always stunned. Maybe the di gods were always in my favor.

If its going to be all evil mobs, which does make sense to me, than Censure Demons would need to change from vorpal to something else.

[Qhualor]

In what way? It only procs on vorpal strikes, which last time I checked is 5% of all atks. Are you able to make 20 atks in 3 secs? Plus it has to be born in mind what you're giving up by taking T5 KotC; that means no Keen Edge, no Staff or Knife Spec, etc. It seems a reasonable tradeoff.

I get those vorpal roles a lot. I've kept an entire pack of cats in EGH stunned until I beat them to death before. At level 18, I found it easier to land stuns on elite Orthons than to stun them as a pure monk with +10 stun wraps.

I love KOTC. Its the only prestige I play when I do Paladin past lives so I don't "give up" anything. Especially since Censure Demons works very well for my builds.

[JOTMON]

The only reason it is a toggle is in the specific case you run into something that is healed by light. It should stack with everything.



It is difficult sometimes for us to communicate the larger plan, but picture these changes with plans to have some new trees; Vanguard (a weapon and shield DPS tree) and Shieldbearer (a weapon and shield mitigation tree).

Also, we plan to have the light damage scale with certain types of spell power. We are still working on the details of the spell power scaling.

Sev~

I think doing good damage would work better for paladin vs light damage... a Paladin should be overall more effective against evil oriented mobs and neutral vs neutral mobs and animals.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Hmm...

add at level 14 they glow from their religious fervor enough to allow easy navigation through Rainbow in the Dark. This 'Aura' does d4 per level of damage per tick to all those not of their alignment.

:P

[count_spicoli]

12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin


16 fvs/2 pally/2 monk pdk with cormyrian knight training swing oath blades and doing light dmg. Cha and con and everything else dump. And even I find the fact that 2 pally gives such a benefit ridiculous. But pally aren't the only ones giving big bonuses for 2 or less levels.

[Qhualor]

Hmm...

add at level 14 they glow from their religious fervor enough to allow easy navigation through Rainbow in the Dark. This 'Aura' does d4 per level of damage per tick to all those not of their alignment.

:P

That would be called Daylight. A 3rd level Paladin spell with a 60 foot radius.

[toapat]

Changes paladins absolutely Need:

Bonus Feats
Charisma Spellcasting
The ability to participate in ranged combat
Good spells, such as Glory of the Martyr
At least one Tank, One Physical DPS, and One Spellcasting PrE tree, with each tree being effective on its own.

As far as these changes are concerned:
Divine Grace: Should be 2+2xPaladin, Also sorcerer gets +1x Sorc
Aura of Light: As has been said, needs to scale off of possitive spell power
Armor of Light: Needs to be just stacking temp HP

[JOTMON]

Greetings,




We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.




it is something needed, will hurt many who invested /2 paladin just for saves but will bring most players back in the same realm.
I would probably drop the paladin splash on most toons if /2paladin only gave +8 to saves. since I would lose more than I gain with that particular splash.

however..... the bar for saves needs to be lowered things like What goes up in Stormhorns requires saves of 70+ which is well out of the range for most current non-paladin splashes builds

[Nadion]

It's good to see the devs are still open to making non trivial (codewise) changes to the game to try and improve struggling classes.

However I think just tacking on a little extra light damage and temp HP isn't really going to it. I also just feels a bit like a messy band aid solution.

The problem with Paladins is that they are melee fighters that give up the bonus feats in exchange for divine abilities that aren't as useful in DDO as in PnP.

I suggest giving Paladins bonus feats at levels 4/8/12/16/20 would be the best way to bring Paladins back up to par.

Paladin bonus feat list would be: Tower Shield, Bastard Sword, Toughness, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Deflection, Empower Heal, Force of Personality, Extra Turning, Improved Turning, Magical Training, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical.

Other tweaks that might help would be:

1. Give +[W] and/or faster regen to Smite Evil
2. Add a combination Smite/Cleave to T5 of KoTC
3. Make Cure Moderate/Serious available one spell level earlier, and add Cure Critical to the Paladins L4 spell list.
4. Have Lay on Hands grant 10 x Paladin Level Temp HP.

[Thumbed_Servant]

Greetings,

...

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

Seems good.

Thought about the Divine Grace change. At maximum paladin level of 20, 2 + (3 x paldin levels) = + 62 total Charisma bonus possible to add to saving throws. To GET a 62 Charisma modifier to add to saves a toon would need a Charisma score of 134. Um, as that is not possible it would seem to me that a better equation would be 2 + (2 x paladin levels). At that, a level 2 paladin first acquiring Divine Grace would benefit from a Charisma score of 22 which would allow a modifier of +6 to be applied to saving throws; at level 20 my formula would give paladins a total possible Charisma modifier of +42 which would need a Charisma score of 94 to be achieved. From a Charisma of 22 at level 2 to a Charisma of 94 at level 20 (and above) I cannot see my formula of 2 + (2 x paladin levels) to be restrictive of almost any paladin. The arithmetic additive at the front of the equation could be adjusted to allow for those few who might acquire very high Charisma scores early on...say 3 or 4 + (2 x paladin levels).

[Qhualor]

Changes paladins absolutely Need:

Bonus Feats
Charisma Spellcasting
The ability to participate in ranged combat
Good spells, such as Glory of the Martyr
At least one Tank, One Physical DPS, and One Spellcasting PrE tree, with each tree being effective on its own.

As far as these changes are concerned:
Divine Grace: Should be 2+2xPaladin, Also sorcerer gets +1x Sorc
Aura of Light: As has been said, needs to scale off of possitive spell power
Armor of Light: Needs to be just stacking temp HP

How does positive spell power benefit BF Paladins?

[Toro12]

O.k.
So paladins now get a couple D6 light damage and some temp HP when they get hit

Vs
Sorc & artis got which is the ability to nuke down whole rooms of mobs with a 6sp maximized , quickened , heightened , empowered 3rd level nuke spell.
Quite literally just about a 1shot kill on normal or hard heroics for 6sp for an entire room of mobs with a minor cool down.
6 spell points so after throwing buffs at the start of the quest at let's say a fair level to have the full 3 ranks of the tier 4 SLAs say vetII start of level 7 leaves a good what 1000sp

And you think some temp hit points and a little head jiggle is supposed to make paladins happy?

How's about you take the smites per rest and throw them out the window? Or not and just leave them there for a good starting batch and give them a 5-12second cool down and a 45-60 second recharge?

How's about changing divine might back to a straight plus to damage and giving paladins the option of going all PDK with Cha to hit and damage with any weapon you can make a holy sword out of? Sure everyone will say but you can get str sooo much higher but then your smites and LoH are even stronger.

How's Bout making holy sword the holy terror it should be with something like that AoE bursting critical like the weapon of light one.

So many things you can do to just improve what paladins have rather than adding new stuff to them. Heck keep smite evil but make it an on hit so it won't get wasted and have it not really require evil only. Make it abborations like monks and or make it any non good. If you aren't with us then your against us so you must be Eeeeeeevvvvviillllll.

--------
Tldr;
Light damage is for pansy sun elfs to twiddle their fingers for in Divine disciple
Paladins are supposed to bust heads for law and order and their gods holy word!

I'm talk'n great vengeance and furious anger , my wallet is the one that says bad mofo on it kinda stuff.

[PsychoBlonde]

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

The Divine Grace change is only really going to hurt sorcerers with paladin levels a LOT (and this is VERY popular). It's not going to affect my 2-paladin splash characters one bit because they only have around a 24-26 cha. The funny thing is that Divine Grace ALONE does not give ACTUAL paladins "good" saves! You have to invest heavily in Cha for that which is EXTREMELY sub-optimal on most paladin builds!

As for the weapons of light . . . eh. An extra 3d6 unscaling not-modified-by-crits-or-spellpower light damage. You could accomplish the same thing by making Holy Sword into a weapon enchant instead of something that creates a crappy weapon. And you'd be rescuing a useless spell from the dustbin at the same time.

How about something like when a paladin smites an enemy that enemy gets a short-lived debuff that makes the paladin's hits all act as threats (must be confirmed)?

The temp HP sounds kind of meh to me, too.

One possibility would be to add more Turn types to paladin. Turn Undead, that's a start. Turn Evil Outsider, that's better. Ending with Turn Evil Creature? Best. It doesn't have to destroy them, just making them cower for a bit would be quite nice.

[Vorthian]

My monkcher might be ok with nerfing Divine Grace to +8 for my splash of two paladin levels, though I would withhold final judgment until I see how effectively I make saves in ee content, which I've built for. I've already decreased my playtime on that toon based on potential nerfs, and have stopped spending cash to improve the character until I know if the investment is worth while or not. That said, Turbine should probably provide +X Lesser Hearts of Wood at a minimum to any multiclass with two or more levels of paladin, but more fairly a +5 heart of wood that allows for changing a players race as well. I'd be curious to learn which builds this will impact the most to least.

[Wipey]

Why do people splash 2 Pally ? Because the DCs by EE mobs with uber inflated are ridonkulous. Same for the traps.
Why do people splash 4 pally ? Because it's the ONLY way to get some use of Stun Blow. Again, ridiculous stats.
Why people don't play let's say 14- 15 pally ? Reconstruct SLA nonsense, that's why. Better play a ranger, same healing, much much easier Manyshot, 100% off hand.
Why people don't play more offensive pally ? Because Kotc tree is horribad. Lack of feats. And silly sword+board archetype for some unknown reason.

None of these changes solve those problems.

[hunzi2010]

Hello Sev,

just want to pop up with something I think you guys need to take a look at, not just for the Pally but for all classes.
Alot of the old style toon development required for example, toughness to open up the toughness enhancements.
Options like this are no longer required under the new enhancement system.
Now what your development team has created is toons that can splash 3 or 4 levels of various types and Synergise them really well to product a monster of a toon.
Credit where credit is due, some of these builds are great, and make the game fun, but there seems to always be nurf here and nurf there and another nurf,
the Nurfs consist of your development team trying to balance things out by nurfing a class and creating a purple boss that's got 4 billion hp (exaggeration guys)
instead of making the mobs near dam impossible to kill and nurfing the classes, why don't you think about looking at redevelopment of the capstone feat, In my opinion if a player is creating a pureclass, there should be an advantage to playing a pureclass. being able to do multiple thing better than what a pureclass can do is simply wrong.
the old rule of them is you can do 1 thing perfectly or many-things averagely, (not sure if I just made a word here, if so i have the rights :P )
So the problem your being faced with is who would create a pure class toon now???
this is where your issue lies.
I to have had to re roll me beloved Barbarian as he is completely useless with all the changes that have happened over the past 12-18 months.
I think instead of nurfing all these splash builds, lets look at enhancing the cap stone feats and look at the enhancement lines putting restrictions on some of the most popular items where the toon needs to have minim levels to take that enhancement. not 2 levels of this and that and you can use it.
But just giving you some feedback and ideas.
Cheers.

Hunzi

[Delacroix21]

Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


The updated class table will look like this:

1st +1/+1/+6 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, Smite evil (1/rest), Follower of (your faith)
2nd +2/+2/+7 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, Lay on hands (1/rest)

3rd +3/+3/+8 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, Divine health, Fear Immunity

4th +4/+4/+9 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead

5th +5/+5/+10/+15 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil (2/rest)

6th +6/+6/+11/+16 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease (1/rest), Deity-based feat
7th +7/+7/+12/+17 +5 +2 +2 Armor of Light (25)
8th +8/+8/+13/+18 +6 +2 +2 Weapon of Light (1d6)
9th +9/+9/+14/+19 +6 +3 +3 Remove disease (2/rest)

10th +10/+10/+15/+20 +7 +3 +3 Smite evil (3/rest)

11th +11/+11/+16/+21 +7 +3 +3 Weapon of Light (Burst on 20)
12th +12/+12/+17/+22 +8 +4 +4 Remove disease (3/rest)

13th +13/+13/+18/+23 +8 +4 +4 Armor of Light (50)
14th +14/+14/+19/+24 +9 +4 +4 Weapon of Light (2d6)
15th +15/+15/+20/+25 +9 +5 +5 Remove disease (4/rest), Smite evil (4/rest)

16th +16/+16/+21/+26 +10 +5 +5 -
17th +17/+17/+22/+27 +10 +5 +5 Weapon of Light (Burst x2)
18th +18/+18/+23/+28 +11 +6 +6 Remove disease (5/rest)

19th +19/+19/+24/+29 +11 +6 +6 Armor of Light (75)
20th +20/+20/+25/+30 +12 +6 +6 Weapon of Light (3d6), Smite evil (5/rest)


We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

These changes wont do a DANG thing for epic paladins, which is where they suffer, not heroic levels.

[Delacroix21]

Why do people splash 2 Pally ? Because the DCs by EE mobs with uber inflated are ridonkulous. Same for the traps.
Why do people splash 4 pally ? Because it's the ONLY way to get some use of Stun Blow. Again, ridiculous stats.
Why people don't play let's say 14- 15 pally ? Reconstruct SLA nonsense, that's why. Better play a anything with healing spells, same healing, much much easier Manyshot, 100% off hand.
Why people don't play more offensive pally ? Because Kotc tree is horribad, and too narrow focused. Lack of feats. And silly sword+board archetype for some unknown reason.

None of these changes solve those problems.

Yep.

[Ayseifn]

The Divine Grace change I'm mostly fine with but can you do something with Divine Might?

Right now it's a tier two enhancement and costs 2 AP per tier, Warpriests get it at tier one and its 1 AP per tier. Having the fighting divine class with the most expensive version seems backwards.

[Hilltrot]

To be honest I'd restrict the save element even more - +8 to saves in a D20 system is a massive boost. I'd set the formula at 1 + 2 x paladin level giving +5 to saves at level 2. Still very good bonus to saves but doesn't mean you will have builds that are stupidly ahead of everyone else. Too big a difference between a build with and without paladin levels makes it very hard to balance DCs in content, especially when you factor in evasion.

I agree with this

[HatsuharuZ]

One way of making paladins more useful to players is to improve their spells. Here are some spells that are languishing, and some ways of improving them:

1) Protection From Evil: Gives +2 to saves and AC vs evil creatures. Sadly, the bonus types match those of commonly available items. The bonus type should be changed.

2) Resistance: Bonus to saves. This has the same problem as Protection from Evil.

3) Divine Favor: Up to +3 luck bonus to attack and damage at caster lvl 9, for a short amount of time. I'd suggest raising the max caster level to 15, for a total of +5 to attack and damage.

4) Angelskin: Gives DR 5/evil to a lawful good target. This would be more useful if it gave other benefits like stacking energy resistances that an angel in DnD gets, or PRR, or even increase the DR with caster level.

5) Dispel Magic: Exactly what it says on the box. Removing the caster level cap would increase it's utility.

6) Magic Circle Against Evil: See "Protection From Evil" entry.

7) Prayer: Slightly buffs friendly targets and slightly buffs enemies. Increase benefits with caster level and it may be used more often.

8) Break Enchantment: AoE version of dispel magic. See "Dispel Magic" entry.

9) Holy Sword: Makes a permanent weapon with various useful damaging and DR-breaking abilities. The material components are expensive, do not stack in inventory and do not cover all types of melee weapons, however. Please make this into an item imbue.

10) Zeal: 10% sacred bonus to doublestrike. I'd suggest making it increase with caster level, up to a point. Either that, or increase the benefit if the caster is using a faith weapon.


Other suggestions:

The spell list for paladins is very sparse. I'd suggest taking a look at the DnD spell list for paladins and taking things from there. Players would especially welcome the "Aura of Glory" spell, which gives the caster and nearby allies a temporary +2 morale bonus to charisma, if I remember correctly.

[droid327]

~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.


So basically this will just add a bubble to LoH. Cure Disease and Turn are not on anyone's hotbar, because they're pointless in actual play. Smite is restricted by charges, so you're only going to use it on bosses and other times you "need" the extra damage, and 75 HP isn't much to talk about against Epic level bosses.

Needs more triggers/a better trigger - on-vorpal seems too obvious and random, but maybe a % chance when doing Light damage, or a 100% chance when taking Negative Energy damage? That'd, obviously, make Paladins extremely effective against Undead, which is befitting. Or as someone else suggested, make Smite on a CD with unlimited use, so it can basically just be a bonus effect on Smite. It also needs one more dimension to it, something else to jazz it up - maybe have the bubble be an AOE effect, so all the other melee fighters get Temp HP too? Again, befitting Paladin's role as a frontline leader and protector.



~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.


Depending how the Spellpower boosts work, this is rather lackluster considering how many levels you have to invest. Its got to be competitive with splashing another class for feats/enhancements/etc. Its basically just like wearing a Runearm plus an AOE proc, but instead of just taking 2 Arti levels, its taking 6-12 Pally levels.

If this is supposed to be the cornerstone of Paladin-centric offense, it needs additional jazz...here's some spitballing:

11: add AOE-on-20 has a chance to temporarily blind all affected enemies (DC: 10+Cha bonus+Pal levels vs Neutral or Good enemies, +10 more vs Evil) for [Pal level] seconds, or [Pal level/2] vs Red-name and [Pal level/4] vs Purple.
14: add On crit: stacking 5% Divine-type bonus to melee speed, stacks 5 times, duration 5 seconds, increments down 1 tick on expiration.
17: add AOE-on-20 has a chance to stun all affected enemies (DC: d20+Cha bonus+Pal levels) for [Pal level/2] seconds, half that vs Red and half again vs Purple.
20: add On crit: stacking 5% vulnerability to Light damage and 1% to Physical damage, stacks to 20.

I think that'd give a pure Paladin a complete offensive playbook commensurate with other classes, without eclipsing them. It also would make them very good for party play.



We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


I support this. No class skill should be so binary between having and not having it that you drop 2 levels into a class just for that one skill. You're addressing that problem with Evasion, and this would address the problem with DG.

On top of all that, I think Pal should get CHA-to-dmg as an option somewhere in their trees. You shouldn't have to take PDK just to get one of your main class stats as your damage stat. Its not like there's "caster Pally vs melee Pally" to consider, like there is for, say, Cleric.

Radically, I might suggest that the alignment restriction be removed to merely make them Good, or to give a certain specific alignment restriction based on Deity...ie, Silver Flame must be LG, Sovereign Host must be NG, LoB must be LN, etc. etc. That'd allow for Pal combinations with other classes (specifically the new Bard with Swashbuckler, and Barb) that might make certain deeper-Pal-splashed builds more attractive.

[pHo3nix]

Why do people splash 2 Pally ? Because the DCs by EE mobs with uber inflated are ridonkulous. Same for the traps.
Why do people splash 4 pally ? Because it's the ONLY way to get some use of Stun Blow. Again, ridiculous stats.
Why people don't play let's say 14- 15 pally ? Reconstruct SLA nonsense, that's why. Better play a ranger, same healing, much much easier Manyshot, 100% off hand.
Why people don't play more offensive pally ? Because Kotc tree is horribad. Lack of feats. And silly sword+board archetype for some unknown reason.

None of these changes solve those problems.

^This.

Reaching a workable stunning blow DC for EE without Divine Might is simply not possible, that's why people stopped bothering with stunning blow unless they splash fvs/clr/paladin (and they got everything you can get, ie 3xFighter PL, completionist, a race with tactics bonus).

It's the same for Divine Grace: there are exceptions (like builds where your main stat can be used for a save, then you can spend a couple of twist slots and with every possible items that boost saves you can reach a decent save) but for most builds if you want your saves to mean something in EE you need Divine Grace, a fair investment in CHA and every possible item that boosts saves. We are back to the old AC: you either go full ****** for saves or you don't care about them and find workarounds.

Nerfing Divine Grace and Divine Might without changing both the DCs (of traps and mobs abilities) and Saves of EE mobs makes no sense. A lot of problems with the current game are caused by how EE works: instead of wasting time in trying to fix the symptoms (pally splashes, monk splashes, ..) you should try to fix the cause, ie EE.

Paladins suck cause their PrEs are terrible compared to the ones of some other classes: nerfing Divine Might and Divine Grace for splashes will not make paladin suck less.

[Monkey_Archer]

Paladins suck cause their PrEs are terrible compared to the ones of some other classes: nerfing Divine Might and Divine Grace for splashes will not make paladin suck less.
Ideally, a nerf to Divine might for splashes could simultaneously be a significant buff to pure paladins with the right formula...

[pesch1991]

NERFING divine Grace Wont do any good people who ask for it dont know how bad the change is most of us have 40+ Cha NOT only Sorcer but melee as well Check the saves Required to survive in storhorms its Way to high you either have 70 or dont Bother at all same goes for epic gianthold Dragons in thunderpeak on epic normal can 1 shot you on a failed save, dont believe me? Go see for Yourself dont forget it is we who keep the newbies Alive in epic elite with the change more of us will quit and more newbies will get tired and Leave as well People Wont Even Splash 2 paladin lvls and just scrap it as a whole

[pesch1991]

Ideally, a nerf to Divine might for splashes could simultaneously be a significant buff to pure paladins with the right formula...

dont you get it ? People Wont play pure Paladins for 1d6 light dmg its ********

[Hilltrot]

I hate having to wait till page 7 in the hope of being read.

Thank you for looking at this, but I think you going at this the wrong way. Think Paladin D&D, not Paladin WoW. Right now you're headed toward Paladin WoW.

The abilities for Paladin are good. They have to be reworked.

First, Lay on hands is too rare and anyone with levels of Paladin can lay on Hands as much as someone with 20. In fact, a sorcerer at level 20 with 2 levels of paladin may Lay on hands more often and better than a 20th level pure Paladin.

Don't take away Lay on Hands from the Sorcerer or even make them weaker, but give the Paladin a ton more. I think that giving the Paladin 1 Lay on hands per level at 2nd level and above would encourage more levels of paladin being taken while improving game balance. Much better than "armor of light"

Smite evil at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19 should include a passive cumulative +1 bane damage. Light damage should be located in the enhancements.

Aura of good needs to be moved to level 5 and increase in power as the paladin levels. Aura if good was meant to get more powerful as one leveled in 3.5.. Being powerful enough to protect others should have to wait until level 5.

Remove disease should naturally improve to Greater Restoration without enhancements.

Get rid of the Spell list, keep the spell points and move the good spells to the enhancement trees as SLAs.

Please note! You don't need ultra-powerful capstones, if you make the proposed fixes to evasion.

[Deathdefy]

The changes aren't enough; as it stands more people won't play paladin, just slightly fewer will splash two pally.

Re: Armour of Light:
+75 temp hp on Lay on Hands, etc isn't really a drawcard. It's a mildly pleasant perk in the vein of the joys of a level 10 artificer's ablative armour.

I'm not saying scrap it, just that it's pretty weak.

What about a passive additional +1 per 2 Paladin Levels Enhancement bonus to heavy/medium armour and shields as well?

Still weak, but at least a little bit more fun, and +20 AC when using heavy/medium armour and a shield is almost a drawcard. Alternatively, a freebie +1 PRR and/or +1 MRR per paladin level.

Maybe free Shield Mastery at level 6, free Tower Shield proficiency at level 12, and more shield junk at 18. Can you auto-grant Legendary Shield Mastery for pure Paladins at level 20 despite it being epic?

Re: Weapon of Light
I appreciate you've said that the light damage might/will scale with certain types of spellpower (I'm guessing light and/or alignment), but it's still pretty weak since 3d6 x say, 200%, that doesn't scale with crits, etc doesn't actually measure up to anything that works multiplicatively with crits.

Having said that, more crit nonsense isn't what the game needs. I'm down with light damage on hit for paladins. It just needs to be more or better. Throw in something Holy Smite-ish on 20s (with a chance at stunning or blindness or auto-consecrating ground). And just more Light damage. Maybe even a flat 1 light damage per paladin level (still affected by spell power), that, if you take a certain capstone, jumps to 2 light damage per paladin level at level 20.

I don't know. It just needs more. This '3d6' per hit stuff just doesn't cut it any more.

Re: Capstone (I appreciate this is tangential, but this is an opportunity!)
I think most people are now pro level 20 abilities being geared toward epics now, and in that vein most are severly underpowered.

This is a good chance to change that by making capstone abilities something that belong in tier 5 of an ED (a la bard evasion in swashy) rather than the current crop of rubbish capstones that wouldn't make the cut for Tier 1 of Fatesinger.

Free Epic Destiny feats (Legendary Shield Mastery + Bastion of Defense), +20 light damage per hit, increase the multiple of MRR provided by shields by 1... that sort of thing.

Or all of that, and while I still don't think it would happen, I'd love to see a Paladins are OP thread!

[pHo3nix]

Ideally, a nerf to Divine might for splashes could simultaneously be a significant buff to pure paladins with the right formula...

Divine Might was fine when it was a bonus to damage and it was limited by pally/fvs/clr levels and you needed a high base CHA to get it. Making it a STR bonus and the inflation of mob saves to compensate for the insane powercreep just created problems, cause now it's a must have if you want a decent stunning blow DC.

When the cap was 20 a lot of classes could have a decent stunning blow with some effort, now you need to have 3xFighter PLs, completionist, Divine Might, possibly a couple of fighter levels for tactic bonus, a race with tactic bonus, an ED twist if you aren't running in LD and even with everything it's still not 95% reliable everywhere.

So i got no problem with them going back to the old DM as long as they revisit the saves of EE mobs, cause otherwise stunning blow will become really a worthless feat.

[Irongutz2000]

12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin

Because they r trying to fix paladin not ur 2nd most broken build in the game.

[Kalevor]

Great! Changes to paladin!! We deserved!


You would be better off giving them bonus feat at 2,7,13,19, Choice from a list of TWF, ITWF, GTWF, THF, ITHF, GTHF, SWF, ISWF, GSWF, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Cleave, Great Cleave, Quicken Spell, Maximize Spell, Empower Healing, Empower Spell, and Extend Spell. Alternatively you could force Paladins into a particular combat style (like Rangers are) and just give them the appropriate feat at 1,6,11.

Basically give them some feat to take a fighting style and still have enough left over to take the feat that help distinguished the class from Fighter. Bonus Feat like this are what make Ranger work use this approach to fix Paladin as well.

I like this idea, 3-4 extra feats at those levels will help a lot.


Greetings,

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

The changes:

~ temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead.


Please... A paladin don't need more survavility, need more DPS...




~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.



This is interesting but not enough... But if this damage is modified by light spell power... could be very interesting!




We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.




This is very fair, i like the change.

My 2cents:
- Make the capstone of KotC give a +1 to the crit mult of an smite evil.
- Make the capstone of SaD give avoidace/dodge/PRR bonus enough to be apealing.

This way people would think a lot about splah for evasion/feats/etc... or have a nice capstone.

[pesch1991]

Because they r trying to fix paladin not ur 2nd most broken build in the game.

you call it broken ? if it was broken as you implied it would be able to solo fall of truth on epic elite difficulty have slayer arrow + adrenaline with manyshot/10k stars do 30k instant dmg + abudant step and so on know what i mean ? melees need more love not more nerfs understand ? iam getting sick of player helpful fixes like that which isnt needed please if you are about to nerf divine might (nerf stun) divine grace (nerf evasion) robes (nerf prr dodge cap still 25% btw) THEN REMOVE EPIC ELITE DIFFICULTY TOO. Severlin if you do own a ddo test account then try to solo epic elite stormhorn or gianthold you will see what i mean

[pesch1991]

Great! Changes to paladin!! We deserved!



I like this idea, 3-4 extra feats at those levels will help a lot.



Please... A paladin don't need more survavility, need more DPS...



This is interesting but not enough... But if this damage is modified by light spell power... could be very interesting!



This is very fair, i like the change.

My 2cents:
- Make the capstone of KotC give a +1 to the crit mult of an smite evil.
- Make the capstone of SaD give avoidace/dodge/PRR bonus enough to be apealing.

This way people would think a lot about splah for evasion/feats/etc... or have a nice capstone.

change to divine grace isnt fair because i invested a lot time and effort to reach a high cha score on a melee class with that i will effectively loose +8 saves do you even know how annoying it is ?

[pesch1991]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KooRBgbm3Iw nerf monkchers instead thanks

[sirgog]

Out of the loop (hardly played since the 25 cap) but to me, the light damage needs to scale up with epic levels somehow.

How about this:


Pal7: You get +1d6 damage (double with two-handers). If your overall character level is 23 or higher, this damage is tripled. If you are level 27 or higher, it is instead quadrupled.
Pal13: Improves to 2d6. Scales as above at character level 23/27 to 6d6/8d6 with one handers, 12d6/16d6 with two-handers.

[Kalevor]

change to divine grace isnt fair because i invested a lot time and effort to reach a high cha score on a melee class with that i will effectively loose +8 saves do you even know how annoying it is ?

So... you can't solo FoT with a cetus build, one of the most broken builds nowdays? well its a very difficult quest... maybe u need to try harder...

And when you finish, try to make the same with a paladin (pure or with a light splash), i can't imagine some1 doing that...




This is interesting but not enough... But if this damage is modified by light spell power... could be very interesting!



I made some numbers and are very low damge... very low... this is not enough.

[pesch1991]

So... you can't solo FoT with a cetus build, one of the most broken builds nowdays? well its a very difficult quest... maybe u need to try harder...

And when you finish, try to make the same with a paladin (pure or with a light splash), i can't imagine some1 doing that...



I made some numbers and are very low damge... very low... this is not enough.

no sir no melee in the world can solo fall of truth on epic elite lol you think its easy ? step in and try i will give ya 2 secs most only monkchers can do that dont try to defend the most broken splash

[Monkey_Archer]

you call it broken ? if it was broken as you implied it would be able to solo fall of truth on epic elite difficulty have slayer arrow + adrenaline with manyshot/10k stars do 30k instant dmg + abudant step and so on know what i mean ? melees need more love not more nerfs understand ? iam getting sick of player helpful fixes like that which isnt needed please if you are about to nerf divine might (nerf stun) divine grace (nerf evasion) robes (nerf prr dodge cap still 25% btw) THEN REMOVE EPIC ELITE DIFFICULTY TOO. Severlin if you do own a ddo test account then try to solo epic elite stormhorn or gianthold you will see what i mean

This post makes me smile :) Maybe I'm showing my DDO age, but I remember my first epic solo was with a ~350 hp human wizard healing with 34 UMD heal scrolls. How times have changed. Apparently now theres no point in even having EE difficulty unless you can spam heal to full, avoid 90% of all damage and kill mobs in 2 seconds.

[Alternative]

After having more thought on the issue and reading some of the comments, I want to STRONGLY echo the necessity for the Divin Might revamp. It is awkward, in the sense that you have to pump cha, so that you pump str, but then you might just pump str some more from the start? It needs to be a bonus to damage AND to hit, either full cha mod or half of it. Also to a minor extent a bonus to tactical feats. If you want to limit it usefulness to other classes (which I don't care about personally) just make it scale with paladin levels like you plan to with divine grace.

Also smites need to be a lot better, currently it's weaker than some abilities other classes get without limited charges. Either make them regen faster or improve the power, think of the actual end game when you do this.

[Ausdoerrt]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

Excellent.

The rest is a good starting point as well. A closed look at Sentinel ED is also warranted, methinks - it's a paladin-y tree, and it sucks horribly.

Also, hoping to see this as soon as possible - I want to play my pally again. Also please, more Paladin-themed weapons. Divine Vengeance was excellent.

[pesch1991]

After having more thought on the issue and reading some of the comments, I want to STRONGLY echo the necessity for the Divin Might revamp. It is awkward, in the sense that you have to pump cha, so that you pump str, but then you might just pump str some more from the start? It needs to be a bonus to damage AND to hit, either full cha mod or half of it. Also to a minor extent a bonus to tactical feats. If you want to limit it usefulness to other classes (which I don't care about personally) just make it scale with paladin levels like you plan to with divine grace.

Also smites need to be a lot better, currently it's weaker than some abilities other classes get without limited charges. Either make them regen faster or improve the power, think of the actual end game when you do this.

You want divine might to be the same and make melee Even More worthless wow changing it to +4 dmg will Result in 11 dmg and and +15 Tactic dcs lost

[pesch1991]

Excellent.

The rest is a good starting point as well. A closed look at Sentinel ED is also warranted, methinks - it's a paladin-y tree, and it sucks horribly.

Also, hoping to see this as soon as possible - I want to play my pally again. Also please, more Paladin-themed weapons. Divine Vengeance was excellent.

What is so excellent about Loosing +8 saves with 40 Cha+ ? I Wont accept this

[Sebastrd]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

Also, and as has been stated by others in this thread, you really ought to address the need for Divine Grace in epics before you consider nerfs to the ability.

[pesch1991]

Also, and as has been stated by others in this thread, you really ought to address the need for Divine Grace in epics before you consider nerfs to the ability.

I wish others would think like that because most Here are asking for Nerfs without its consequences and just wish to destroy a good Build because they suck and want others to suck as well especially those who invested a Lot time and gearing

[Holybird]

I wish others would think like that because most Here are asking for Nerfs without its consequences and just wish to destroy a good Build because they suck and want others to suck as well especially those who invested a Lot time and gearing

We understand that you are frustrated because you used a lot of time to get good gear and getting those saves to working level on Epic Elites. I would be frustrated too, being frustrated is understandable. But that is not understandable or acceptable that you say that all who don't like the power of Divine Grace suck. I have friend who plays 16sorc/2pali/2monk and with so little invesments he could acchieve no-fail saves and he is allmost impossible to kill. Thing is different with melees I know. But being rude to others with different opinions is just not very intelligent or logical. I am pretty sure that you know how to play this game, but only thing you have to learn is how to argue intelligently and without being rude and without hurting other peoples feelings. Try to be nice, it is better way to tell your opinions than pressing caps-lock on and start to shouting at other peoples faces.

P.S I like your ideas Severlin

-with all respect Holybird

[Atremus]

I have played a few full Paladin Lives (pure / 18/2 evasion) and they are lacking in Damage more than anything. Give Paladins more DPS while you are making changes.

My Suggestions:
Give them autogranted MetaMagic Feats at Every 4th Level (similar to Ranger) to free up Feat space for weapon stuff. Suggested Feats: empower healing, maximize, extend, quicken. Now this doesn't do much for BladeForged but BF are already plenty powerful.

Next you must fix the trees. When Devils were endgame, KoTC made sense. Now... Well KoTC is just wasted Dev Time. We need more Damage that can be applied throughout the games content. If you want to do a D6 light damage feature at least make it so we can increase it up to 60d6 or 100d6 (tied to pally level or just via the tree). A paladin is usually the last man standing. But if you cant kill anything what good are you? A big smathering of light damage that is constant would help.

Give them more class skills and skill points if possible. Stat starved classes have little room to invest in INT.

I like the temporary HP idea but I would request that you increase the temp HP to 100. Not OP but good.


Remember that Paladins are lacking in DPS the most.

[Ayseifn]

What is so excellent about Loosing +8 saves with 40 Cha+ ? I Wont accept this

Just drop some feats and go 12 fighter/6 paladin/2 monk. Not the end of the world.

[Kalevor]

no sir no melee in the world can solo fall of truth on epic elite lol you think its easy ? step in and try i will give ya 2 secs most only monkchers can do that dont try to defend the most broken splash

My point is that you can't argue about a decent change in game mechanics based on only your own concerns because it's not fair. A raid is not made to solo, is made to be beated for a group of players, but sometimes some very skillfull players can do it... that is not the common rule.

/Off-topic

Just like others said before, pally NEEDS MOAR DPS!!!

[pesch1991]

Just drop some feats and go 12 fighter/6 paladin/2 monk. Not the end of the world.
Wow because of a dump change i have to Splash 4 more paladin lvls and loose ranged feats needed for manyshot and shadow veil no Thanks

[pesch1991]

We understand that you are frustrated because you used a lot of time to get good gear and getting those saves to working level on Epic Elites. I would be frustrated too, being frustrated is understandable. But that is not understandable or acceptable that you say that all who don't like the power of Divine Grace suck. I have friend who plays 16sorc/2pali/2monk and with so little invesments he could acchieve no-fail saves and he is allmost impossible to kill. Thing is different with melees I know. But being rude to others with different opinions is just not very intelligent or logical. I am pretty sure that you know how to play this game, but only thing you have to learn is how to argue intelligently and without being rude and without hurting other peoples feelings. Try to be nice, it is better way to tell your opinions than pressing caps-lock on and start to shouting at other peoples faces.

P.S I like your ideas Severlin

-with all respect Holybird

I am just being honest Here because as you implied i had to spend a Lot time effort and gearing to stand where i am atm and i just cant accept such a change because they really want to destroy melee classes next nerf will be divine might and so on so i will Probably quit after this because I am getting tired of this they nerf us but ingore shiradi caster and monkchers People are just arrogant nowadays and wish others harm in and possible Way and thats what i really hate.

[pesch1991]

My point is that you can't argue about a decent change in game mechanics based on only your own concerns because it's not fair. A raid is not made to solo, is made to be beated for a group of players, but sometimes some very skillfull players can do it... that is not the common rule.

/Off-topic

Just like others said before, pally NEEDS MOAR DPS!!!

Its not a Decent change its a massive nerf to divine Grace

[MeliCat]

I don't know pallys much but I don't much like that everything here taps out with no effort except getting 20 levels of pally - it would be nice if you could continue to build as you get more EDs/gear/etc but here it's just that amount and then you can't get any more. Unless you put specific ED things in (which would tie the player to an ED which is limiting) or specific gear.

[zaphear]

This looks like you guys are giving up on 3.5 and just trying to build Next classes.. way to fail. Get rid of the cheesy d6 damage and give them some nice THF/or Sword and Board options.

[Cetus]

2 + 3*pally level .....

So, with completionist and deliberate gear accommodation, yugoloth potion, and ship buff, I reached a 40 charisma on my character. Thats a +15 modifier to saves for which I invested, planned, and worked for. Right?

You may see where this is going...

Now, you give the same 2 paladin splash a maximum of 8 modifier to saves, for which barely any work needs to be done. You'd need a 26 charisma to max out, while the divine might that you'd also like to take advantage of will call for a much higher investment than just a 26 charisma.

So, joe shmoe with a 26 charisma will have the same save advantage as any committed player reading this who did the extra work and brain power to fit in a generously higher charisma. I see what you're trying to do here, but this is a blatant nerf to the 2 pally splash and doesn't make going more than 2 pally worthwhile - which is the REAL issue here, as far as I see it. All you accomplished is the reduction in pally splash appeal, not in the increase of deeper pally splash appeal.

In the end, all you are doing is simply nerfing the 2 pally splash by 7 to saves for my character, despite the fact that I invested a completionist feat and gear in order to attain it.

But, how do I get my full 40 charisma to count again?

Well, 4 levels of paladin would give me 14 to saves, which still is 1 point less than what I get now. So, I'd need to splash deeper into pally just to get back what I already have now. You think this is a good plan for paladins? You aren't achieving it by nerfing (my build as an example) 7 saves across the board. This is a very shiradi like approach - where investment doesn't really matter much, here just get your measly 26 modifier and anybody can get 8 to saves from 2 pally splash. I'd wager that, as a fulltime melee DPS build, I probably reached the highest charisma value possible without sacrificing damage. How many people are sitting in the low to mid 30's? These folks get something like 8-12 on their saves for their investment - why would you CAP them at 8?

Might as well just roll up a pew pew monk archer, since apparently divine grace is the real problem in this game.

[Mryal]

Might as well just roll up a pew pew monk archer, since apparently divine grace is the real problem in this game.

Youre free to roll a pure fighter again now, in heavy armor! Afterall, there was a lot of complaints about not beign able to do that when the enhancement pass came, coming from you.

Anyways.Since you brought the pew pew monk archer subject.Im still waiting for a what is WAI and what isnt dev post about that.
Its cool that you folks are changing heavy armor and paladins based on the PC balance feedback thread.But when are we gonna talk about the other part of the PC balance thread, the bug fixing of some...unnatural sinergies?

[Ivan_Milic]

Might as well just roll up a pew pew monk archer, since apparently divine grace is the real problem in this game.

Finally you see the way. :D

[Mryal]

Finally you see the way. :D

The /easybutton way.

[pesch1991]

2 + 3*pally level .....

So, with completionist and deliberate gear accommodation, yugoloth potion, and ship buff, I reached a 40 charisma on my character. Thats a +15 modifier to saves for which I invested, planned, and worked for. Right?

You may see where this is going...

Now, you give the same 2 paladin splash a maximum of 8 modifier to saves, for which barely any work needs to be done. You'd need a 26 charisma to max out, while the divine might that you'd also like to take advantage of will call for a much higher investment than just a 26 charisma.

So, joe shmoe with a 26 charisma will have the same save advantage as any committed player reading this who did the extra work and brain power to fit in a generously higher charisma. I see what you're trying to do here, but this is a blatant nerf to the 2 pally splash and doesn't make going more than 2 pally worthwhile - which is the REAL issue here, as far as I see it. All you accomplished is the reduction in pally splash appeal, not in the increase of deeper pally splash appeal.

In the end, all you are doing is simply nerfing the 2 pally splash by 7 to saves for my character, despite the fact that I invested a completionist feat and gear in order to attain it.

But, how do I get my full 40 charisma to count again?

Well, 4 levels of paladin would give me 14 to saves, which still is 1 point less than what I get now. So, I'd need to splash deeper into pally just to get back what I already have now. You think this is a good plan for paladins? You aren't achieving it by nerfing (my build as an example) 7 saves across the board. This is a very shiradi like approach - where investment doesn't really matter much, here just get your measly 26 modifier and anybody can get 8 to saves from 2 pally splash. I'd wager that, as a fulltime melee DPS build, I probably reached the highest charisma value possible without sacrificing damage. How many people are sitting in the low to mid 30's? These folks get something like 8-12 on their saves for their investment - why would you CAP them at 8?

Might as well just roll up a pew pew monk archer, since apparently divine grace is the real problem in this game.

Well Said

[Ausdoerrt]

But, how do I get my full 40 charisma to count again?

You learn to adapt. In any MMO, if you come up with something that's too good you can expect it to be nerfed. Maybe it's time to start thinking about a new build then :)

P.S. IMO, Paladin splash is as broken as monk splash. PnP DMs realized this, that's why all the multiclass restrictions were in place for these classes.

[knockcocker]

Paladins suck cause their PrEs are terrible compared to the ones of some other classes: nerfing Divine Might and Divine Grace for splashes will not make paladin suck less.

QFT.

Too many people on here labouring under the assumption that /2 Pal splits only
have ~26 Cha and that this change only affects sorc. splashes. Effective
melee need saves, evasion and CC. Investing in Cha with a /2 Pal split is an
efficient way to achieve that but is not zero cost. This proposal just
invalidates that choice without providing an alternative or even looking at
the underlying mechanics of why this choice is made in the first place.

This won't encourage deeper splashes, it will encourage not splash at all which
I'm sure will be very popular with certain crabs in the DDO forums bucket...

[pesch1991]

QFT.

Too many people on here labouring under the assumption that /2 Pal splits only
have ~26 Cha and that this change only affects sorc. splashes. Effective
melee need saves, evasion and CC. Investing in Cha with a /2 Pal split is an
efficient way to achieve that but is not zero cost. This proposal just
invalidates that choice without providing an alternative or even looking at
the underlying mechanics of why this choice is made in the first place.

This won't encourage deeper splashes, it will encourage not splash at all which
I'm sure will be very popular with certain crabs in the DDO forums bucket...

Yep Wont Bother with Paladins anymore if this change goes live there is no Point to Splash More paladin lvls due to something being nerfed and 26 Cha is a joke and a big Lie

[EllisDee37]

Cetus and pesch, divine grace is clearly unbalanced. It very much needs to change regardless of how much time you personally invested on your specific characters.

I don't disagree that EE saves need rebalancing, because right now it would appear that they require using a clearly unbalanced 2 pally splash. The solution to this problem is NOT "leave the unbalanced ability alone." The solution is to rebalance the broken ability (limiting a 2 splash to +6 saves is more reasonable than +8) and at the same time rebalance the broken content.

I think you guys are lobbying to maintain a status quo that actively hurts the game.

[pesch1991]

Cetus and pesch, divine grace is clearly unbalanced. It very much needs to change regardless of how much time you personally invested on your specific characters.

I don't disagree that EE saves need rebalancing, because right now it would appear that they require using a clearly unbalanced 2 pally splash. The solution to this problem is NOT "leave the unbalanced ability alone." The solution is to rebalance the broken ability (limiting a 2 splash to +6 saves is more reasonable than +8) and at the same time rebalance the broken content.

I think you guys are lobbying to maintain a status quo that actively hurts the game.

Ok Sir could you explain why you think that divine grace is unbalanced atm ? you have to invest a lot to get high saves you dont get them for free so capping it would actually destroy paladins even more because folks wouldnt event bother with 2 paladins then and just scrap it, its not a broken ability in any way you have to work hard to reach high saves its not a freebie and to make it worse limiting it to +6 is madness many builds with high cha and 2 lvls of paladin will loose 10+ saves its not only cetus who has but shiradi casters as well so its not just a nerf to us but to others too EPIC ELITE saves are way toooooo high some months ago i failed a save on a roll of 55 versus delayed blast fireball killing me instantly and now with the release of thunderholme the coupled red dragons in a fire on thunderpeak can 1 shot you on a failed save in epic normal thats ridiculous surely they wont adjust epic elite saves you need +70 in epic elite wheelon thats insane its getting harder and harder what problem do you have regarding divine grace ? everyone can splash 2 paladin lvls and get the save he needs in order to survive epic elite content such a unreasonable change wont do any good ! imo thats pretty selfish to nerf others build for no reason

[Grace_ana]

The change to divine grace would make me sob. Please don't do this.

I get it, saves for monks blah blah blah. But I use that 2 pally splash on my sorc to make her survivable. Getting decent saves otherwise takes way too much away from being a sorc. What I trade away is worth what I get, but the loss of DC spells isn't worth +8 saves. It's particularly painful given the proposed armor changes. Keep in mind that a sorc doesn't have evasion but has to wear robes. So I'd be losing in both sets of proposed changes.

Since the proposed change to divine grace isn't really going to encourage anyone to play a pally into further levels (as has been pointed out in several posts), the nerf seems way out of whack.

[EllisDee37]

Ok Sir could you explain why you think that divine grace is unbalanced atm ?The fact that you can't live without it is evidence that it's OP compared to splashing 2 of any other class.

Right now in the game, splashing 2 paladin is way OP compared to splashing 2 of anything else except monk, and splashing 2 monk is also way OP.

That's unbalanced.

[Grace_ana]

The fact that you can't live without it is evidence that it's OP compared to splashing 2 of any other class.

Right now in the game, splashing 2 paladin is way OP compared to splashing 2 of anything else except monk, and splashing 2 monk is also way OP.

That's unbalanced.

Eh. What you call unbalanced I call multiclassing. I don't think that the definition of OP is having something you really really want. I mean, that's the case with any multiclass. By splashing, you also have to give things up. I have to give up DC and spells on my sorc. Someone else has to give up something on their build. If what they are giving up isn't great, that doesn't mean the splash is OP; it means the capstone stinks.

Divine grace isn't the problem. The lack of DPS and feats on pallies is the problem. Fix smite. Give some of the bonuses you can get with feats in the enhancement tree. Fix heavy armor as is being discussed in another thread. Problem solved.

[bennyson]

I like the direction of the thread, although I must say this.

Armor of Light is silly, Paladins in DDO don't have any problem dying, their saves are their best defense against most attacks. While this "might" seem good for Heroics, its going to be useless in Epics.

I think changing it to boosting PRR and MRR would be a better idea, with a tiny twist...like 5% chance from any attack towards you dealing burst damage to nearby enemies, similar to how Weapon of Light is possibly going to work.

I, however, agree with everyone else, the problem is with the PrE trees. Fix that, and you've taken the first steps towards pulling Paladins off the Great Wall of Shame.

[Thrudh]

What is so excellent about Loosing +8 saves with 40 Cha+ ? I Wont accept this

Take 4 levels of paladin instead, and you get your saves back... Plus then you'll free up a twist slot since you'll get Turn Undead (for Divine Might) automatically.

[Thrudh]

Well, 4 levels of paladin would give me 14 to saves, which still is 1 point less than what I get now.

1 point less, and you free up a twist spot... Also gives you access to Empower Heal feat, which might be useful for some builds.

Use that hard work and brainpower to adapt to 4 levels of paladin.

The only constant is change... How many times have you changed your build before now? Did you really think your current build would remain unchanged forever?

[pesch1991]

Take 4 levels of paladin instead, and you get your saves back... Plus then you'll free up a twist slot since you'll get Turn Undead (for Divine Might) automatically.

and loose shadow veil + 2 feats (that means i will loose manyshot) and +2 to all saves still also with 4 slots it wont be a problem to twist bane of undeath it even provides bane dmg against undeath so its actually good to have it

[Thrudh]

I think the extra Light damage is very nice for heroic levels... Paladins need something for epic elite though... I'd suggest super-buffing Smite Evils if possible.

With the upcoming armor and paladin changes, I do see me pulling one of my old characters out of storage... I'm excited... Nice work devs!

[pesch1991]

The fact that you can't live without it is evidence that it's OP compared to splashing 2 of any other class.

Right now in the game, splashing 2 paladin is way OP compared to splashing 2 of anything else except monk, and splashing 2 monk is also way OP.

That's unbalanced.

then you should check ddo wiki and read about multiclasses because you dont seem to know much about them

[pesch1991]

1 point less, and you free up a twist spot... Also gives you access to Empower Heal feat, which might be useful for some builds.

Use that hard work and brainpower to adapt to 4 levels of paladin.

The only constant is change... How many times have you changed your build before now? Did you really think your current build would remain unchanged forever?

i wont accept this either

[pesch1991]

Don't break the rules and insult people.

i am not trying to insult anyone just being honest now stop being rude ;)

[Thrudh]

and loose shadow veil + 2 feats (that means i will loose manyshot) and +2 to all saves still also with 4 slots it wont be a problem to twist bane of undeath it even provides bane dmg against undeath so its actually good to have it

What do you have now? 12/6/2 fighter/monk/paladin?

Switch to 10/6/4 fighter/monk/paladin or 8/6/6 and you only lose Power Surge (you can make back two of the STR you lose with KoTC STR enhancements) and 1-2 feats (don't tell me you can't find another feat to drop besides Manyshot)

[Thrudh]

i wont accept this either

How have you lasted this long? Did you just not accept any of the past changes either? You still playing a Batman build?

[EllisDee37]

then you should check ddo wiki and read about multiclasses because you dont seem to know much about themList the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.

[bennyson]

i am not trying to insult anyone just being honest now stop being rude ;)

Your complaining about something when your not going to accept. Armor is getting buffed beyond recognition, can't you come up with a new build?

[pesch1991]

What do you have now? 12/6/2 fighter/monk/paladin?

Switch to 10/6/4 fighter/monk/paladin or 8/6/6 and you only lose Power Surge (you can make back two of the STR you lose with KoTC STR enhancements) and 1-2 feats (don't tell me you can't find another feat to drop besides Manyshot)

without powersurge i could as well drop divine might because it wouldnt make any sense to have it any longer thats how stunning blow works dc would be way too low for epic elite and why do i have to go through a change for no reason ? i dont want to change anything and mess up with my gear layout again not worth the effort

[bennyson]

without powersurge i could as well drop divine might because it wouldnt make any sense to have it any longer thats how stunning blow works dc would be way too low for epic elite and why do i have to go through a change for no reason ? i dont want to change anything and mess up with my gear layout again not worth the effort

So you want the "Easy Button" is that it?

Work. Harder.

[unbongwah]

Div Grace wouldn't need to be nerfed were it not for the stat hyperinflation in DDO. In the old days when +6 items were as good as it got, Div Grace provided a respectable boost to saves, but wasn't a panacea and involved a reasonable opportunity cost. Nowadays you can have +5 tome + 10 item + 3 insight + 2 ship buff + 2 Yugo pot; you can dump-stat CHA on most builds and still wind up with CHA 30 with comparatively little effort. From a game balance perspective, open-ended bonuses from splashing are OP; Div Grace & Div Might are Exhibits #1 & #2 of that phenomenon.

However, the proposed change to Div Grace doesn't eliminate pally splashes, it just encourages you to splash a little deeper. The flip side to the game-balance equation is how EEs work, and in particular that anyone without Div Grace is at a serious disadvantage. But that's a topic for another thread.

[pesch1991]

List the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.

16 sorcer 2 monk 2 paladin, 18 sorcer 2 paladin, 12 rogue 6 paladin 2 monk or 12 rogue 6 monk 2 paladin, 16 favoured soul 2 paladin 2 monk, 18 favoured soul 2 paladin, almost any build except barbarian bard and druid can splash paladin lvls and almost any build except barbarian bard can splash monk. asking for more examples ?

[pesch1991]

So you want the "Easy Button" is that it?

Work. Harder.


funny you telling me to work harder ? i spent a lot time and effort for my build and i know what to do i dont need to be lectured by you now stop getting on my nerves you are just jealous of others thats all work harder and dont be jealous.
try running epic elite melees only have stunning blow nothing else you want them to nerf this too ? why not remove melee as a whole and just play pew pew thats what you think i bet

[Krelar]

16 sorcer 2 monk 2 paladin, 18 sorcer 2 paladin, 12 rogue 6 paladin 2 monk or 12 rogue 6 monk 2 paladin, 16 favoured soul 2 paladin 2 monk, 18 favoured soul 2 paladin, almost any build except barbarian bard and druid can splash paladin lvls and almost any build except barbarian bard can splash monk. asking for more examples ?

So you're trying prove his point for him? He was asking you for splashes that don't use monk or pally but are just as strong as those that do....

[pesch1991]

So you're trying prove his point for him? He was asking you for splashes that don't use monk or pally but are just as strong as those that do....

the point is almost everyone can splash paladin or monk lvls (or both) it doesnt matter its clearly a nerf

[Grace_ana]

List the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.

1. Rogue splashes give evasion and trap skills, both of which are pretty awesome and the reason people have been splashing 2 rogue forever.
2. FVS splashes give Just Reward, which is endless sp and therefore endless power for caster builds.
3. Druid splash is nearly vital for any stick build due to shillelagh.
4. Fighter splash is incredibly common for extra feats.

I stuck to the shallow splashes for sake of equivalent argument. I don't recall anyone ever claiming over the last several years that rogue was OP. I doubt anyone right now would say that fvs or druid are OP. The fact is that there are several classes for which a shallow splash can confer a ton more power. Some classes are more versatile and can apply to more builds, but that doesn't change the fact that splashes for extra power are and should be a major part of DDO. If a multiclass didn't confer a significant amount of power, there would be no point in multiclassing.

[pHo3nix]

Cetus and pesch, divine grace is clearly unbalanced. It very much needs to change regardless of how much time you personally invested on your specific characters.

I don't disagree that EE saves need rebalancing, because right now it would appear that they require using a clearly unbalanced 2 pally splash. The solution to this problem is NOT "leave the unbalanced ability alone." The solution is to rebalance the broken ability (limiting a 2 splash to +6 saves is more reasonable than +8) and at the same time rebalance the broken content.

I think you guys are lobbying to maintain a status quo that actively hurts the game.

Divine Grace is perfectly fine. EE DCs aren't fine. If EE DCs were lower, divine grace would be absolutely optional, ie you could splash 2 pally and avoid slotting some item that boost saves or you could avoid the pally splash and slot items to have good saves, you would have choice. With the current EE you need to slot items that boost saves AND you need to splash 2 pally, there is no choice at all if you want your saves to be ok.

It's exactly like evasion: evasion is perfectly fine, what's not fine is that having evasion is so good in 90% of the game cause the main treats are reflex based saves.

The problem is how EE are designed, so instead of trying to change everything that works in EE they should just change EE, making them even harder if they want, but harder in a different way from "you need 70+ saves" and "let's add a 0 at the end of mobs HP and damage".

[Grace_ana]

divine grace is perfectly fine. Ee dcs aren't fine. If ee dcs were lower, divine grace would be absolutely optional, ie you could splash 2 pally and avoid slotting some item that boost saves or you could avoid the pally splash and slot items to have good saves, you would have choice. With the current ee you need to slot items that boost saves and you need to splash 2 pally, there is no choice at all if you want your saves to be ok.

It's exactly like evasion: Evasion is perfectly fine, what's not fine is that having evasion is so good in 90% of the game cause the main treats are reflex based saves.

The problem is how ee are designed, so instead of trying to change everything that works in ee they should just change ee, making them even harder if they want, but harder in a different way from "you need 70+ saves" and "let's add a 0 at the end of mobs hp and damage".

qft

[B0ltdrag0n]

1. Rogue splashes give evasion and trap skills, both of which are pretty awesome and the reason people have been splashing 2 rogue forever.
2. FVS splashes give Just Reward, which is endless sp and therefore endless power for caster builds.
3. Druid splash is nearly vital for any stick build due to shillelagh.
4. Fighter splash is incredibly common for extra feats.

I stuck to the shallow splashes for sake of equivalent argument. I don't recall anyone ever claiming over the last several years that rogue was OP. I doubt anyone right now would say that fvs or druid are OP. The fact is that there are several classes for which a shallow splash can confer a ton more power. Some classes are more versatile and can apply to more builds, but that doesn't change the fact that splashes for extra power are and should be a major part of DDO. If a multiclass didn't confer a significant amount of power, there would be no point in multiclassing.

1 only matters in heroics
2 only done on a very small subset of builds
3.lolwhat? The two best stick get no Benefit from sheleigh
4 fighter splash is for centered weapons

Still we both agree that pal2 splash isn't the problem that needs solved

[eachna_gislin]

I think the cap on divine grace is fine.

I dont think any of the changes here are exciting enough to get folks rolling paladins again.

The problem isnt a few D6 of damage. THe fact that some dev thinks this is a game changing solution is disappointing.

The problem with Paladins is that they are a feat starved class with Bad PrE lines.

I concur (except that I do play paladins and I will continue to do so).

Paladins _are_ feat starved. The PnP paladins had mounts and their smites worked differently. Turbine stripped away much of their potency and didn't replace it with feats.

Rangers were given bow feats and twf to compensate them for losing their pets and some of their PnP damage. Paladins were given a standard feat table and told to lump it. While the endgame was still d20 based, the combination of undead and demon/devil damage was enough to make them interesting but those days are long past. The new engame systems are all percentage based.

Paladins need more feats. The last beneficial breakpoint to play a paladin is taking zeal. Every level after that is pretty much literally wasted (it's "better" to splash into any number of other classes than stay pure). So, I'd back-load bonus feats into those levels (either 3@ 16, 18, 20 or, to be really kind 4@ 16, 17, 19, 20).

Someone else posted this list, but I'll borrow it: Paladin bonus feat list would be: Tower Shield, Bastard Sword, Toughness, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Deflection, Empower Heal, Force of Personality, Extra Turning, Improved Turning, Magical Training, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical.

That gives a player some build flexibility without watering down fighters.

As other have pointed out the paladin spell book is a joke. It needs to be gone over and some epic-centric tweaks should be put in. I like the twin suggestions that the Holy Sword spell be turned into a weapon imbue (in effect making any weapon you wield holy) _and_ that the extra light damage being suggested be tied into using the holy sword. As a spell, radiance spellpower can easily apply (and would be sorely needed to be effective in epics). I'd go so far as to suggest that the devs re-work Holy Sword to work in a similar way to the longsword Divine Vengeance. As you gain levels, the spell could give you stacking SR (or maybe the new MRR), good damage (or light damage), radiance with blinding, etc. I'm sure someone could provide a reasonable curve where it doesn't steamroll heroics but still proves useful in epics.

The last point is the prestige classes. The tank prestige is terrible. It's close to useless and the sacred bonus has been gutted for paladins to the benefit of stalwart fighters. Hopefully the new PRR/MRR changes will make this more useful.

The Knight of the Chalice/Hunter of the Dead prestige _must_ get a capstone that combines the two damage lines (the same way divine disciples get both necro and light lines). This is what people very clearly asked for, for years. The devs combined the two prestiges and did *not* provide the much-needed combined bonuses, and then had the nerve to pretend they'd "listened". All that was done was to weaken the final prestige by making it unfocused. *Finally* "listening" to what paladin players are asking for and giving them the combined damage types would be useful. By tying it to a prestige capstone there's no worries people would 'splash' paladin for the benefit. It's still weak but at least it's something. With fresh outsiders in epic content and and epic Necropolis in the pipeline, this would have use going forward.

Paladins still need their third prestige. Someone else provided the suggestion that there be a casting-focused one. That's not a bad idea...maybe something that boosts turning and creates a few SLAs that have a paladin flavor. Maybe a heroic heal over time that provides a temp hp buffer (a bit like a weaker cocoon) and some others that provide stacking PRR/MRR, and at least one nice alternate smite. A lot of good work has gone into divine balancing lately. I'm sure the same team could do wonders if assigned to paladins.

[JOTMON]

List the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.

Rogue - Evasion, SA, traps, Skill points, UMD
Fighter- Feats
Druid - rams might, spell points
Artificer - rune arm, conjure bolts., sell points, puppy lever puller
Ranger-bow strenght, rapid shot, twf, favoured enemy.
Wizard - Metamagic feat, Spell access

all depends on what you are looking for...

[axel15810]

I'm not sure that the divine grace change solves the problem.

Even with a +8 cap for 2 pally splash, the problem is that saves numbers required in EE are so high that to make them meaningful you are FORCED to splash pally. Right now you may as well dump saves completely if you don't pally splash because they won't amount to enough in EE to matter. This shouldn't be the case and this change doesn't address this issue.

You should be able to get meaningful EE saves without the splash. Until this change is made, every melee who runs EE will continue to be forced to splash pally just to get their saves to a decent number. Having dumped saves = instant death in top end EE content.

Ideally, pure pallies should save pretty much always in EE, those with pally splash should save most of the time, and those without pally splash should still be able to save a decent amount of the time if fully geared.

So overall, all this change will do is force characters to splash more pally levels just to be viable in epic elite. Instead of 2 pally levels being mandatory as it is now, 4-6 will now be mandatory with this change. In effect you'll be harming character customization. Address the real problem, monster DCs that are too high.

[Irongutz2000]

you call it broken ? if it was broken as you implied it would be able to solo fall of truth on epic elite difficulty have slayer arrow + adrenaline with manyshot/10k stars do 30k instant dmg + abudant step and so on know what i mean ? melees need more love not more nerfs understand ? iam getting sick of player helpful fixes like that which isnt needed please if you are about to nerf divine might (nerf stun) divine grace (nerf evasion) robes (nerf prr dodge cap still 25% btw) THEN REMOVE EPIC ELITE DIFFICULTY TOO. Severlin if you do own a ddo test account then try to solo epic elite stormhorn or gianthold you will see what i mean

Um this is hurting monkchers to , stop being so whinney and close minded to changes, they r going to happen, adapt and deal with it or play a different game. U think anyone cares if u rage quit? Cause they don't. They really don't.

Besides this is a group game soloing is for ppl who need to strut there internet uberness.

And yes I hate monkchers too. but I think ur way over reacting.

[kierg10]

Don't have the time to read the whole thread so here is what I want to say on this:

The divine grace changes: just don't do it. In EEs you need every possible boost to saves due to the ridiculously high levels of enemy DCs, so limiting the cha bonus to 8 on any build with 2 pally levels will kill a lot of builds and **** off a lot of players.

the light damage: Really worthless 6-36 damage at level 28 is pretty laughable. Make it so that paladins get some enhancements to boost this, make it amplifiable by crits/adrenaline/master's blitz and make there an epic feat so taht you can get more dice for it. Paladins at the top end are probably a solid 50-100 damage behind classes like fighter (from my experience epic level paladin hits for approx 100-150 without max gear and with a good weapon, fighter hits for 200-250 with a mediocre weapon), so maybe make it so that paladins can get up to 15d6 damage.....this would mean that paladins are still slightly behind paladins, but so that paladins are competitive DPS.....or maybe just 12d6 if you really don't want them that close....but at this point realistically fighters can so easily have just as good self healing as paladins (SF pots for emergencies, cacoon or reconstruct SLA for in fight non-emergencies and heal or recon scrolls for out of combat topping up) that the "paladins self healing>fighter self healing therefore no good pally DPS" argument just doesn't work.

[kierg10]

If you change the light damage to work how I detailed it will, and you go through with the armour changes, I will totally go pure paladin wielding a greataxe or greatsword.....

[Arlathen]

Some feedback....

Firstly...
While I congratulate you on considerations to improving Paladins performance, I think you really need to look at the following issues with Paladins and Paladin Splashes:



People want Paladin 2 splashes for the Saves to survive in more difficult content, because the spell DCs in difficult content tend to vastly outweigh what other non-Paladin classes can realistically achieve.
Likewise, people want Paladin 2/4 splashes for Divine Might, simply so that they can scale a Str-based DC mechanic to achievable goals in difficult content.
People dont want high-level / pure-classed Paladins in difficult content, because Paladins as a native class cannot scale their DPS to match the requirements of difficult content.
Current Paladin Self-healing is also unnattractive at High levels, simply because there are better, more efficient options for more difficult content.


Now, with that in mind and the other thread on PRR/MRR changes, I'll entreat your proposed changes.

Armour of Light
I like this ability - but I think its too little. Smite Evil and other Paladin abilities are for too little often used that even 75 Temporary Hit Points are going to be useful that often. I really think you should change this completely to grant a stacking PRR/MRR bonus dependent on the number of Paladin levels.

6th Level: +5 PRR/MRR
10th Level: +10 PRR/MRR
14th Level: +15 PRR/MRR
18th Level: +20 PRR/MRR
20th Level: +30 PRR/MRR

This scales a lot better and yet gives a significant boost when playing in higher difficulty and EE content.


Weapons of Light
While I see the intention of improving DPS for Paladins natively here, I think it leaves quite a lot to be desired. It simply lacks scability, meaning that the damage becomes more and more irrelevant as the enemy Mob HP scales more and more.

Let me put this in another context for you - The current 'Courage of Good' enhancements in Knight of the Chalice that add 2D6 light damage to my attacks are frankly ignorable when we have to deal with a pack of mobs where each one has 6 - 8,000HP. What you need an ability that scales decently, and not one that is a flat bonus.

Suggestion - Add scale-able base damage to every hit:

Starting at Level 11, a Paladin receives +1D6 Good Damage to weapon attacks per Paladin level, upto 10D6 per strike at level 20.
Paladins fighting with THF receive this bonus damage on all Glancing Blows, irrelevent of Magic Weapon Effects proc chance.
Paladins fighting with Sword & Board receive this bonus damage on all Glancing Blows and on all Shield Bashes, irrelevent of Magic Weapon Effects proc chance.
The bonus Damage is affected by Positive Spellpower, but not Meta-magics and cannot 'Spell Crit'.


Even on a Pure 20 Paladin with a frankly ridiculous 250 Positive Spellpower, that's still only a 35*2.5= 87.5 Average Bonus Damage per hit, comparable to current Rogue Sneak Damage (25D6 = 87.5 Avg) levels.

I would also add a scaling bonus damage on Crits/Vorpal attacks as well:

At Paladin level 12, the bonus damage is doubled on a Vorpal Strike.
At Paladin level 16, the bonus damage is doubled on a Critical hit.
At Paladin level 20, the bonus damage is doubled on a critical hit and is tripled on a Vorpal Strike.
Allow the bonus damage to 'Spell Crit' on Vorpals


Again, even our extreme hardcore 20 Paladin, rolling a Vorpal and 'Spell Critting' is getting a bonus Average 525 damage. That kind of damage is worthwhile building for.

I wouldn't actually add the AoE effect to the ability here, either. If the Paladin wants AoE damage he can go for THF, or even a SnB variant. If he wants to concentrate on single target DPS, he can spec into TWF or SWF instead.


Divine Grace Changes
I approve of the intention of the change, but most multi-classed characters will swap to using 4 Paladin instead of 2 Paladin and free a twist slot to use Divine Might. Multi-classes with a 6 Paladin splash won't mind this change at all. Unfortunately, this is the wrong way to fix the problem where players depend on 2 Paladin to shore up saves to make them EE worthy.

Combo Suggestion:


Nerf Divine Grace more heavily - +2 per Paladin Level, rising to +3 per Paladin level when at Paladin 10+ (allowing upto +50 Saves Bonus at Paladin 20).
Make Divine Might less of a requirement to reach worthwhile Str-based tactic DCs.
Buff other save boosting options - Halfling Racial Enhancements, Half-Elf Paladin Dilletante enhancements as examples
Nerf down Spell DCs from enemy Mobs make it so we don't need crazy 80+ Saves to have a fighting chance in EEs.



Hope that helps!

[thesnoman]

List the 2 splashes that give as much power as paladin and monk.


GraceAna already listed the common ones...but the fact remains that people are still going to be complaining about Pally and Monk.

Why?

Because EE is broken.

Fighter splashes are common to add feats - which are helpful, but not extremely helpful to stay alive in EE content.
Rogue gives Evasion and Trap Skills - neither of which are extremely helpful in EE content (well evasion is, but you get that and more from Monk)
Druid Splash for Stick Builds - Again not needed to balance EE
FvS on Caster Builds for Unlimited Mana Pool - Great for DPS, but not for Survivability.


So here it is - Monk and Pally. These are the ones that are said to be OP. Why?? Because they keep you alive in EE content and can be splashed by nearly every class in the game. (Sorry Barbarians - you're out of luck here). They appear to be OP because they benefit so many classes and are splashed on nearly every EE capable build.

Bit this is NOT the problem. The problem is the over-inflated saves required for EE content. There is nothing wrong with Divine Grace as it stands. It has been this way forever, but only became what it is today after the release of The High Road - when saves in EE had to be in the 60's or you would be annihilated.

And now we are looking straight into the face of a nerf to Divine Grace - one of the only reasons to splash Pally.

It's cleverly veiled in an attempt to make Pallys viable again, but as has been pointed out several times in this thread, there is no benefit to Pallys in epic content - simply an easier time to get to level 20.

If you want to fix everyone splashing Pally (or monk), than fix EE content. I'm not saying to "make it easier" - but make the saves achievable WITHOUT divine Grace or Monk Levels and you will stop seeing people splash it.

On a side note, you will likely not see a nerf to Monk in the near future since it is a Pay 2 Win class. With the changes to Pally, Monk will become even more valuable, meaning those without it, (that want to play in EE), will now have to purchase it (watch for a price hike in the near future). Once the market is saturated with monk splash toons and Turbine can no longer make any money on Monk, they will nerf it and release a new class (as noted by Sev in the Armor and Mitigation thread)




~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

Sev~

[Grace_ana]

1 only matters in heroics

Hardly. Just for the evasion alone it is a good splash, something people are demanding in EE. And unlike monks, a rogue splash isn't alignment restricted.


2 only done on a very small subset of builds

It's also very recent. Whether or not it is done on everyone or some doesn't matter for whether it is powerful or not. Near-endless mana for a 2 level splash is pretty powerful.


3.lolwhat? The two best stick get no Benefit from sheleigh

And yet, it is a common splash for the power. Just because you wouldn't use it doesn't mean it doesn't appear all over the place.


4 fighter splash is for centered weapons

No, fighter splash is for feats. For centered weapons it is a deep splash of 8 levels. A 1 or 2 level fighter splash gets you 1-2 extra feats, higher BAB, and access to fighter feats.


Still we both agree that pal2 splash isn't the problem that needs solved

This is true. Making a splash useless doesn't then mean that people will build pallies. I don't even understand that logic.

[Sardonica]

Hi,

Thank you for looking at improving the paladin class. My first character was a paladin way back when DDO first went live (long live Xoriat!), and I have enjoyed playing pure paladins ever since. They are in a bad place right now. Speaking for myself, I would like to see:

1. More BASE damage (a few d6 tacked onto poor damage is still poor)

2. More feats (class feat offerings and/or enhancement unlocks to higher feats in a line)

3. More base damage (some good suggestions have been made regarding Divine Might...make it scale with paladin level, lose the nonstacking insightful strength and make it a stacked bonus to strength)

4. More smites (or less! best suggestion I have heard is one smite on a cooldown that can be sped up with enhancements, destiny abilities, etc.)

5. More base damage

6. Endless lay-on-hands (currently a destiny twist that I always use, should be a lvl 18 grant or core enhancement)

Did I mention more base damage? ;)

And regarding Divine Grace, I see no reason at this point in the game to hurt paladin splashes. It wont help paladins and will just make a group of people angry.

Thank you for your valuable development time.

[thesnoman]

Some feedback....

Divine Grace Changes
I approve of the intention of the change, but most multi-classed characters will swap to using 4 Paladin instead of 2 Paladin and free a twist slot to use Divine Might. Multi-classes with a 6 Paladin splash won't mind this change at all. Unfortunately, this is the wrong way to fix the problem where players depend on 2 Paladin to shore up saves to make them EE worthy.

Combo Suggestion:


Nerf Divine Grace more heavily - +2 per Paladin Level, rising to +3 per Paladin level when at Paladin 10+ (allowing upto +50 Saves Bonus at Paladin 20).
Make Divine Might less of a requirement to reach worthwhile Str-based tactic DCs.
Buff other save boosting options - Halfling Racial Enhancements, Half-Elf Paladin Dilletante enhancements as examples
Nerf down Spell DCs from enemy Mobs make it so we don't need crazy 80+ Saves to have a fighting chance in EEs.



Hope that helps!


I have a 2-pally splash with 50 Charisma. (Yes it's a Sorc)

Keeping my 2 levels of Pally gives me -12 and going to 4 Pally levels would still give me -6 to my current Saves. I'd have -12 based on your #1. Neither nerf seems acceptable based on the current state of EE content.

#4 would help, but you would also need to nerf down enemy DCs on stunning, tripping, etc.

#3 would help, but not enough since it would require an HTR to change your toon's race.



How about this as a suggestion - and many will not like it.

Go forward with the changes to Divine Might - 2 + (3 x Level), but allow it to be taken by FvS and Cleric at Level 2 or 4. (This wouldn't be Auto-granted, it would need to be taken as a chosen feat)

Of course this will never happen because "High Saves are what makes a Pally Great" even though they will still be the bottom of the barrel for EE content with the proposed changes.

[Ivan_Milic]

Um this is hurting monkchers to , stop being so whinney and close minded to changes, they r going to happen, adapt and deal with it or play a different game. U think anyone cares if u rage quit? Cause they don't. They really don't.

Besides this is a group game soloing is for ppl who need to strut there internet uberness.

And yes I hate monkchers too. but I think ur way over reacting.

How does this hurt monkchers?

[MadCookieQueen]

these are great...but I have only one concern:


Paladin Special Mount


this was one of the best and most distinguished features of Paladins in D&D. It has been lost in DDO. I think we need to have these.


Paladins should be able to trot on top of a glittery unicorn along side the group. This would grant Paladins free additional bank space (saddle bags), striding 1000% (on a full action boost gallop) and should provide a +10 fabulous Charisma bonus.

This should also open up a new line of feats: Jousting, Improved Jousting and Greater Jousting. This way not only do you look fabulous on your unicorn as a Paladin you can impale the EE mobs in front of you.

We will also need a new epic raid -- Epic Medieval Times Dinner & Tournament -- the party will have to fight the crowds and the Black Knight in the ultimate pit of doom for the greatest prize ever...


Bacon and Beer.


that is all ^^

[Purkilius]

I want speed of the steed as a buff for Paladins that would improve movement speed (20%) and attack speed (10%).

My first melee was TWF KOTC Paladin with 2 monk levels when the level cap was 20 and the majority of the endgame was EO, I maxed him out with the ToD set and everything.

Then I TR´ed him to a Fighter 12 Paladin 6 Monk 2 for 34 points and more to hit, was missing sometimes in harder epics, and I realized around level 15 that this split was doing more dmg and faster (speed boost) then a level 20 Paladin.

Never got back to the Paladin and if I were to make a self healing TWF melee today I would make a BF 11 Ranger 5 Wizard 4 Paladin cha based and Perma-tensered Crusader with energy burst twisted or Shoikan´s FVS build.

With the Warpriest tree both Clerics and FVS now outclass the Pally even in melee dps which is really sad.

Paladins needs a huge buff to be viable again and this is a start in the right direction.

[Lonnbeimnech]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

That isn't enough of a nerf if you are trying to make it so people have a reason to play paladins rather than a 2 splash.

Change it to this;

Divine Grace gives a bonus of +1 to all saves based on cha modifier, with a cap of +1 per paladin level

change the paladin capstone enhancements to include uncapping this bonus, so if a pure pally has a 70 cha it would be +30 to all saves.

[Purkilius]

these are great...but I have only one concern:


Paladin Special Mount


this was one of the best and most distinguished features of Paladins in D&D. It has been lost in DDO. I think we need to have these.


Paladins should be able to trot on top of a glittery unicorn along side the group. This would grant Paladins free additional bank space (saddle bags), striding 1000% (on a full action boost gallop) and should provide a +10 fabulous Charisma bonus.

This should also open up a new line of feats: Jousting, Improved Jousting and Greater Jousting. This way not only do you look fabulous on your unicorn as a Paladin you can impale the EE mobs in front of you.

We will also need a new epic raid -- Epic Medieval Times Dinner & Tournament -- the party will have to fight the crowds and the Black Knight in the ultimate pit of doom for the greatest prize ever...


Bacon and Beer.


that is all ^^

Would love those changes but I do not think they have the resources to make it happen :)

[eachna_gislin]

Ok Sir could you explain why you think that divine grace is unbalanced atm ? you have to invest a lot to get high saves you dont get them for free so capping it would actually destroy paladins even more because folks wouldnt event bother with 2 paladins then and just scrap it, its not a broken ability in any way you have to work hard to reach high saves its not a freebie and to make it worse limiting it to +6 is madness many builds with high cha and 2 lvls of paladin will loose 10+ saves its not only cetus who has but shiradi casters as well so its not just a nerf to us but to others too EPIC ELITE saves are way toooooo high some months ago i failed a save on a roll of 55 versus delayed blast fireball killing me instantly and now with the release of thunderholme the coupled red dragons in a fire on thunderpeak can 1 shot you on a failed save in epic normal thats ridiculous surely they wont adjust epic elite saves you need +70 in epic elite wheelon thats insane its getting harder and harder what problem do you have regarding divine grace ? everyone can splash 2 paladin lvls and get the save he needs in order to survive epic elite content such a unreasonable change wont do any good ! imo thats pretty selfish to nerf others build for no reason

I don't often comment on this, but you would be well advised to learn to use punctuation and capitalization when communicating on forums.

Divine Grace is unbalanced because people believe they "need" it. This is exactly the like the situation where the toughness feat used to be tied to the toughness enhancement hit points. "Every" elite character had to take toughness to get access to those precious hp, or they were gimp. Now, "every" elite character needs at least 2 paladin for the saving throws. I'm putting the word every in quotes because I'm sure there were some endgame builds that didn't depend on toughness in the past, and some viable builds now that don't depend on paladin. But, there's a very real and strong pressure that drives people to these builds. Right now, 12 fighter, 6 monk, 2 paladin is the split for a perfect melee build. 12 fighter for the feats and the kensai centered weapons. 6 monk for evasion, even more feats, and the insane amount of power front-loaded into monks. 2 paladin for Divine Grace and Divine Might (if you twist in turning). If you find your twist slot is more valuable than your heroic levels, you can reverse it to 12 fighter, 6 paladin, 2 monk.

The devs are supposed to be rebalancing saving throws along with the PRR/SRR changes. It looks to me like they've finally decided to attack the DC casting problems by dismantling the boosts that inflate other DCs. DC casters will only be effective once the overly-inflated strength, and overly-inflated saving throws are reduced. I welcome these changes, along with the stated plans to make paladins more effective and more desirable to play as a pure (or mostly pure) build.

I'm also hoping the devs will tackle monks next. I don't want monks overall power level to be brought down, but "something" really ought to be done about the benefits of splashing 2-6 levels of monk, most likely by shifting power around to back-load them. Creating "-onks" should not be the default of "every" effective melee. Play them (and enjoy them) if you genuinely like them. But, melee builds shouldn't be described as "gimp" without them.

[thegreatneil]

Sev~

Read this:

Im going to be VERY clear on this.

Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

I don't care about monkachers & cetus type builds or pali splashed monk / rogue Q staffers.

This does not buff Paladins.
A 6th level splash can get +20 to saves. Great.
How does this help a pure20 paladin? it doesn't. This is still low hanging fruit.
I am NOT saying make the level of it higher.
Make the benefit better for more paladin levels.

Paladins need help in feats, enhancements, well pretty much everywhere.

The light damage is a good start, having it affected by spell power is a better one.
I suggest devotion, as paladins do get heal as a class skill. light power may also be an option.

[EllisDee37]

1. Rogue splashes give evasion and trap skills, both of which are pretty awesome and the reason people have been splashing 2 rogue forever.
2. FVS splashes give Just Reward, which is endless sp and therefore endless power for caster builds.
3. Druid splash is nearly vital for any stick build due to shillelagh.
4. Fighter splash is incredibly common for extra feats.None of those even approach the power of paladin 2 (cha mod to saves and strength) or monk 2 (evasion + grandmaster of earth).

The closest is rogue, who gets evasion, but a monk splash is clearly superior to rogue splash. The funniest example is fighter for two feats. Compare luck of heroes + great strength to paladin 2.


why do i have to go through a change for no reason ?It's not "no reason." There's a very good reason. In the current game, multiclassing options are hugely unbalanced. They need balancing.

[eachna_gislin]

GraceAna already listed the common ones...but the fact remains that people are still going to be complaining about Pally and Monk.

Why?

Because EE is broken.

Fighter splashes are common to add feats - which are helpful, but not extremely helpful to stay alive in EE content.
Rogue gives Evasion and Trap Skills - neither of which are extremely helpful in EE content (well evasion is, but you get that and more from Monk)
Druid Splash for Stick Builds - Again not needed to balance EE
FvS on Caster Builds for Unlimited Mana Pool - Great for DPS, but not for Survivability.


So here it is - Monk and Pally. These are the ones that are said to be OP. Why?? Because they keep you alive in EE content and can be splashed by nearly every class in the game. (Sorry Barbarians - you're out of luck here). They appear to be OP because they benefit so many classes and are splashed on nearly every EE capable build.

Bit this is NOT the problem. The problem is the over-inflated saves required for EE content. There is nothing wrong with Divine Grace as it stands. It has been this way forever, but only became what it is today after the release of The High Road - when saves in EE had to be in the 60's or you would be annihilated.

And now we are looking straight into the face of a nerf to Divine Grace - one of the only reasons to splash Pally.

It's cleverly veiled in an attempt to make Pallys viable again, but as has been pointed out several times in this thread, there is no benefit to Pallys in epic content - simply an easier time to get to level 20.

If you want to fix everyone splashing Pally (or monk), than fix EE content. I'm not saying to "make it easier" - but make the saves achievable WITHOUT divine Grace or Monk Levels and you will stop seeing people splash it.

On a side note, you will likely not see a nerf to Monk in the near future since it is a Pay 2 Win class. With the changes to Pally, Monk will become even more valuable, meaning those without it, (that want to play in EE), will now have to purchase it (watch for a price hike in the near future). Once the market is saturated with monk splash toons and Turbine can no longer make any money on Monk, they will nerf it and release a new class (as noted by Sev in the Armor and Mitigation thread)

The only way to make saves achievable without Divine Grace is to nerf Divine Grace (and many of the other stacking effects). They started cleaning up the strength changes but (as always) left it half-done. Now they're tackling saving throws but there's really only one obscene source of boosted saves. So, it's much easier to implement.

Dealing with incoming damage without evasion (ie: "monk levels") is in the works in the new PRR/SRR changes. This is the other side of it. Personally, I welcome any changes that significantly reduce Divine Grace for splashes. A splash should be a nice bit of flavor to improve the mix, not an "omgmusthaveobegimp" inclusion.

The market is already saturated with monk splash toons. The sooner all the better monk powers are back-loaded into the later levels, the better for builds as a whole.

[EllisDee37]

I don't recall anyone ever claiming over the last several years that rogue was OP.Getting into a tangent here, but I recall many, many complaints over the last several years that evasion is OP.

[HungarianRhapsody]

We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

Sev~

The changes to Divine Grace would probably make me lose interest in a 2-level splash of Paladin.

The other changes to Paladin would not make me interested in taking more than 2 levels of Paladin.

If your goal is to get people to not play Paladins at all, then I think these are good changes (no- that's not sarcasm. It's entirely possible that Turbine dislikes the 2-level splash and wants Paladin to be a flavor class that people will take in spite of its powers and not because of them).

[HungarianRhapsody]

The only way to make saves achievable without Divine Grace is to nerf Divine Grace (and many of the other stacking effects).

I do agree with that in part, but I'd extend that statement -

The only way to make saves achievable without Divine Grace is to nerf Divine Grace (and many of the other stacking effects) AND ALSO REDUCE THE REQUIRED SAVING THROWS ACROSS THE BOARD.

I am concerned that Turbine will nerf Divine Grace and neglect to do the second half of the job.

[HungarianRhapsody]

The closest is rogue, who gets evasion, but a monk splash is clearly superior to rogue splash. The funniest example is fighter for two feats. Compare luck of heroes + great strength to paladin 2.

If you're going to make the comparison, then please compared Fighter Haste Boost + two feats worth taking to Paladin 2.

[EllisDee37]

I do agree with that in part, but I'd extend that statement -

The only way to make saves achievable without Divine Grace is to nerf Divine Grace (and many of the other stacking effects) AND ALSO REDUCE THE REQUIRED SAVING THROWS ACROSS THE BOARD.

I am concerned that Turbine will nerf Divine Grace and neglect to do the second half of the job.I couldn't agree more with the capitalized bit.

The only reason the brokenness of the 2 pally (and 2 monk) splash is an issue in the first place is because EE itself is broken. Fix EE at the same time you fix the paladin (and monk!) 2 splash.

(For fixing monk 2, the very first place to start is to make the form feats require monk levels instead of character levels. Then move the crit modifier from earth to fire.)

[HungarianRhapsody]

(For fixing monk 2, the very first place to start is to make the form feats require monk levels instead of character levels. Then move the crit modifier from earth to fire.)

I really like the fact that you can take the form feats as character-feats because that adds a lot of flexibility and feats are expensive for most characters. I think that a better option would be to make more feats that are worth taking and get rid of many of the "filler" feats that we have now.

If done wrong, that would be pure power creep.
If done right, I think that could lead to some really nice build diversity where feat choices are real decisions instead of just being a list of "must get these" that every class tries to copy.

[Grace_ana]

None of those even approach the power of paladin 2 (cha mod to saves and strength) or monk 2 (evasion + grandmaster of earth).

The closest is rogue, who gets evasion, but a monk splash is clearly superior to rogue splash. The funniest example is fighter for two feats. Compare luck of heroes + great strength to paladin 2.

Evasion all on its own is powerful enough to be splashed all over the place and people feeling like they "need" it. A monk splash is not "clearly superior." I'd like to see you try to splash monk on a bard or barb. Rogue can be splashed on anything. Each has its benefits. And a fighter splash is very powerful on a feat-starved build. I'm pretty sure most people don't use it for luck of heroes. You can use it to free up enough slots for power attack/cleave/great cleave in order to get OC. That's a single example of many.

Also, pally saves are not the end all-be all. Much like evasion, they are good on some builds, but they aren't OP. A pally splash doesn't matter on a build that doesn't utilize enough charisma to matter. Evasion doesn't matter on a build that doesn't have a high enough reflex save. And the combination of 2 pally/2 monk is a fairly large investment that means you lose a core and a capstone from your primary class, as well as spells/DCs/feats/etc. It's only really beneficial on a handful of builds.

The builds that utilize it have no real choice because EE is ridiculous. As others pointed out, that is the problem. Changing divine grace doesn't encourage more pallies; it wrecks pally multiclassing, thereby driving more people away from any pally whatsoever.


It's not "no reason." There's a very good reason. In the current game, multiclassing options are hugely unbalanced. They need balancing.

Oh yeah, and it doesn't create balance either. You want to push people towards playing a class, make the class itself - including the capstone - something people want to play. Paladin already gets awesome saves. Everyone knows that. Changing divine grace doesn't give them better saves. So identify what is lacking for paladins, which is dps, armor/shield issues, and feats, and fix that. Then people play paladins.

[Scrabbler]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.
Limiting the save bonus by Paladin level is something I suggested back when the level cap was 10.

It would've been clearly good then, but now it would be painful since so many characters have relied on Paladin splashes. However, if you do go ahead with it, remember that being in Divine Destiny should allow your Epic levels to also count for that purpose. So a Monk18/Pal2/Epic8 with Divine Crusader should get 2 + 3 x (2+8) = 32 charisma mod, more than enough.

[Seikojin]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

[Arlathen]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

Maybe not autofail, buts that's a -35% cut in making your Reflex save, in your example. That's a hell of a difference.

[kierg10]

Maybe not autofail, buts that's a -35% cut in making your Reflex save, in your example. That's a hell of a difference.

^^this.

[Grace_ana]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

A loss of 7, as in your example, is a huge, huge loss. Given the also huge damage sustained on save fails, that's going from a reasonably survivable build (not god status but with solid investments elsewhere and good gameplay can make it through an EE encounter) to lots of deaths. And as I already pointed out, if you read through the thread on armor changes, non-evasion pally splashes like sorcs get hit from all sides with this change. I mean, they can splash evasion instead of pally, but it won't make a difference if they can't get their saves up high enough to matter.

I really can't imagine how divine grace as is has become so gamebreaking in some people's minds. I have all of one toon with a pally splash for DG, and that toon is hardly immortal. There is definitely a balance problem, but that isn't it.

[pHo3nix]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

-7 on a d20 roll is -35% chance of success if you were exactly at 95% or less, so it's not autofail but it's a pretty big loss, so big that you could as well avoid splashing 2 pally and use those 2 levels for something more reliable and useful.

The funny thing is that i still can't understand how nerfing DG for splashes will suddenly make pure pallies more appealing: they will still suck, but instead of sucking if you only have the paladin icon, they will suck even as a splash. Only good thing going for them is the passive past life feat :D

[Arlathen]

I have a 2-pally splash with 50 Charisma. (Yes it's a Sorc)

Keeping my 2 levels of Pally gives me -12 and going to 4 Pally levels would still give me -6 to my current Saves. I'd have -12 based on your #1. Neither nerf seems acceptable based on the current state of EE content.

#4 would help, but you would also need to nerf down enemy DCs on stunning, tripping, etc.

#3 would help, but not enough since it would require an HTR to change your toon's race.



How about this as a suggestion - and many will not like it.

Go forward with the changes to Divine Might - 2 + (3 x Level), but allow it to be taken by FvS and Cleric at Level 2 or 4. (This wouldn't be Auto-granted, it would need to be taken as a chosen feat)

Of course this will never happen because "High Saves are what makes a Pally Great" even though they will still be the bottom of the barrel for EE content with the proposed changes.

Just to clarify, the combo suggestion around Divine Grace was meant to indicate that all 4 options should be pursued. Essentially, reduce the saves needed in EE content and buff other racial/class/enhancement Save options so that a Paladin 2 splash isn't automatically used by most EE characters to get realistic saves.

Nerfing Divine Grace on top of that might not even be needed if that was all done, but a heavy nerf for 'light splashes' means the Paladin 2 options isn't that much more valuable over grabbing another class that's already giving +3 saves from class levels, for example.

For example, what if:
- Luck of Heroes was buffed to give +3 to all saves?
- Epic Superior Luck feat was implemented, granting another stacking +3 to all saves?
- Lightning Reflexes / Iron Will / Great Fortitude we're buffed to give +4 to their respective save and allow an automatic saving throw pass on 19-20 instead of just a 20?
- Resilience feat grants a Saving throw bonus equal to Character Level/2 ?
- Epic Saving throw feats were also buffed up to +4?
- What if Half-Elf Paladin Dilletante Feat could grant +8 to all saves?
- Halfling Luck Enhancements were buffed to provide +5 total?
- Dwarf Runes went to +6 vs. Magical Effects?
- Insight bonus to Saves upto +4 was added to Yellow Augments?

Lots of ways to improve exisiting abilities in game without nerfing Divine Grace.

[Sebastrd]

I'm getting awfully tired of people in this thread jumping on the "nerf Divine Grace" bandwagon but offering no compelling reason for doing so. (No, "Divine Grace" is OP because it's a powerful splash is not a compelling argument.)

Divine Grace has been around for a long time, but only recently in DDO's history did we see it in so many builds. The design conceits of EE content have made Divine Grace necessary, because it is one of the few ways to achieve workable saves. Divine Grace and a Pally 2 splash are not unbalanced. The Content is unbalanced. When the Content makes sky-high saves optional rather than a necessity, you'll see the Pally 2 splash die off.

[thegreatneil]

The funny thing is that i still can't understand how nerfing DG for splashes will suddenly make pure pallies more appealing: they will still suck, but instead of sucking if you only have the paladin icon, they will suck even as a splash. Only good thing going for them is the passive past life feat :D

THIS^

This is the big problem I have with this it doesn't help a paladin.

MAKE BUFFS NOT NERFS!

[EllisDee37]

A loss of 7, as in your example, is a huge, huge loss. Given the also huge damage sustained on save fails, that's going from a reasonably survivable build (not god status but with solid investments elsewhere and good gameplay can make it through an EE encounter) to lots of deaths. And as I already pointed out, if you read through the thread on armor changes, non-evasion pally splashes like sorcs get hit from all sides with this change. I mean, they can splash evasion instead of pally, but it won't make a difference if they can't get their saves up high enough to matter.

I really can't imagine how divine grace as is has become so gamebreaking in some people's minds. I have all of one toon with a pally splash for DG, and that toon is hardly immortal. There is definitely a balance problem, but that isn't it.I'm having trouble reconciling your two statements here.

Going from +15 saves to +8 saves is a "huge huge loss", yet having +15 in the first place isn't a big deal in terms of balancing character power?

[Grace_ana]

I'm having trouble reconciling your two statements here.

Going from +15 saves to +8 saves is a "huge huge loss", yet having +15 in the first place isn't a big deal in terms of balancing character power?

Explain please, in detail, how it balances character power.

[Arcanegrin]

The fact that you can't live without it is evidence that it's OP compared to splashing 2 of any other class.

Right now in the game, splashing 2 paladin is way OP compared to splashing 2 of anything else except monk, and splashing 2 monk is also way OP.

That's unbalanced.

This is correct, if you think its wrong see below.

If you don't think 2 monk or 2 paladin is OP then try making a barbarian or bard build that is great in EE content. It becomes quite a bit harder because you can't splash monk or paladin. Every time you get towards finishing a build you want to splash something and either paladin or monk are the best splashes you can add. This means something is wrong.

A comparison of the monk splash with 3 others, Limit for enhancement points is 6.

First off I'm going to introduce what a monk gets for 2 levels:
Going to use ocean form for comparison purposes. If your playing a str build then change it to something else.
2 levels of monk gets:[/B] Evasion, Ocean form: +2 wisdom, +3 saving throws, +2% dodge -2 str, AC bonus wisdom, +3 ac bonus, 4% dodge, +3 to all saves
From enhancements: 4 points ninja for +3% dodge, 2 point shintao for 10 positive and 5% healing amp, and 1 point for a heal skill
2 feats available. Lets say dodge and toughness
+3 saves to all

Total dodge gained: 12%
Hp at end game: 30
Saves: +6 fort saves, +6 will saves, +6 reflex saves

2 levels of Rogue gets: Evasion, 1d6 sneak attack, trapping (which requires large amounts of INT and DEX investment). Haste attack is available if you spend 11 points which is a significant enhancement investment.

From enhancements: 3 points assassin additional 1d6 sneak attack, 3 points mechanic +2 saves vs traps, +2 trapping skills

+0 fort saves
+3 reflex saves +2 reflex vs traps only
+0 will saves

Pros compared to monk:
Trapping
2d6 sneak attack
No centered requirement

Cons compared to monk:
30 less hp
12% less dodge
-6 fort saves
-1 reflex save vs traps, -3 reflex save vs spells
-6 will saves
No positive
No healing amp
-3 ac (not counting wisdom bonus)

2 levels of fighter gets: 2 feats for comparison purposes toughness and dodge, d10 hp for a tiny amount of more hp, +2 fort saves.
From enhancements: 4 points kensei for 5 action boosts of haste attack.
Maybe something else for remaining 2 points?

Pros compared to monk:
tiny bit more hp from d10
haste attack
No centered requirement

Cons compared to monk:
12% less dodge
-4 fort
-6 reflex
-6 will
No evasion
No positive
No healing amp
-3 ac (not counting wisdom bonus)

2 levels of ranger gets: rapid shot, 1 favored enemy, 2 weapon fighting, bow strength, +3 fort, +3 reflex

Enhancements: DWS 6 points for 2d6 sneak attack and 22 positive energy, or Tempest for 4 points and +3 reflex and +3 additional against traps.

For comparison purposes I'm going to assume monk took two weapon fighting and dodge as feats. I'm also going to say ranger got all above enhancements for 6 points even though that isn't possible.

Pros compared to monk:
+3 reflex saves vs traps
Rapid shot
1 favored enemy
bow str
2d6 sneak attack
11 positive energy
No centered requirement

Cons compared to monk:
No evasion
-3 fort
-3 will
No healing amp
12% less dodge
-3 ac

[Arcanegrin]

To compare the above to paladin just take a look at their saves. Without comparing monk which gives +6 to all saves for basically zero investment, the saves you get from a paladin are quite good.

One of my capped characters is sitting at a 33 charisma which is very easy to get, that's +11 to all save with no enhancement points.

The best from any of the above examples is ranger which would still require 3 enhancement points just to get to +6 reflex and a +9 reflex vs traps.

----



Take the examples above and try to find any combination where adding 2 splashes would net you the same as 2 levels of monk and 2 levels of paladin:

Just from saves with an easy cha of 33 you would be getting +17 to ALL SAVES.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

Sad, truly sad

[Arcanegrin]

In response to the actual thread about new paladins.

Overall sounds fun and that your on the right track.

The light damage could be very fun, it needs to scale similarly to the new bard enhancements. Either pos or radiance spell power. Positive spell power for the scaling would be pretty strong and would make me play a paladin sooner.

While your fixing paladins divine might on paladins needs to be changed to the same as clerics/fvs divine might and work with spell points, or make it a toggle to choose between turns or spell points. I'm guessing this was in there because divine might and saves was far too powerful. You should also cap divine might in the same was that paladin saves are capped. Either move divine might to tier 1 on paladins or to tier 2 on clerics.

I'm saying this even though I have a 18 bard, 1 fighter, 1 cleric build that relies on divine might for dps and stuns. I have more str then multi-tr barbarians.

[Monkey_Archer]

I'm getting awfully tired of people in this thread jumping on the "nerf Divine Grace" bandwagon but offering no compelling reason for doing so. (No, "Divine Grace" is OP because it's a powerful splash is not a compelling argument.)

Divine Grace has been around for a long time, but only recently in DDO's history did we see it in so many builds. The design conceits of EE content have made Divine Grace necessary, because it is one of the few ways to achieve workable saves. Divine Grace and a Pally 2 splash are not unbalanced. The Content is unbalanced. When the Content makes sky-high saves optional rather than a necessity, you'll see the Pally 2 splash die off.
Ok. I'll make the "correct" argument for why divine grace should be nerfed. The reason it needs to be nerfed is not because its OP, and its definitely not to encourage more paladin levels. The real reason it needs to be nerfed is because it completely breaks the D20 system.

Look at it this way: If a character needs +20 to saves from divine grace, that also means that without divine grace they would auto-fail. Saves don't work on a percentage basis, they use a D20. If a single ability is capable of providing a +20 bonus to a D20 check what this means is that at some point it either becomes mandatory or redundant. Either way its broken. Forcing all characters in the game to take 2 levels of a specific class just to get meaningful saves is straight up bad game design. Theres no way around that fact.

Does nerfing divine grace solve the EE saves problem? No of course not, but its not supposed to. Its merely one step to getting all classes on a slightly more level playing field so that further changes in the future might actually fix the real problem.

[EllisDee37]

Explain please, in detail, how it balances character power.Here it is, in excrutiating detail:

Imagine you're building a melee character. Imagine the capstone is kinda crappy. Imagine you're now looking at splashing 2 levels of another class because your capstone stinks.

Okay, in this hypothetical situation, splashing 2 paladin or 2 monk (or both!) is way, way, way, way, way more attractive than splashing two levels of any other class.

That is unbalanced.

[DrawingGuy]

Personally I love the Divine Grace change - though I would go as far to say that I preferred the initial proposal of pal level*2 + 2 over the new *3. No, it's true that meant as an incentive for pure pally, as a pure pally would be able to get the full benefit anyways under the old system... but it helps reign in massive low hanging fruit power grabs. Giving up a capstone that is likely barely better than +2 to a stat to give me +10 to 20 to ALL of my saves on top of giving the ability to add the same to my STR? Just add Evasion, and suddenly I'm immune to everything except when I roll a one or the spell has an effect even when saved against (or, of course, has no save). The only way for that to not be true is if they were to build EE content against those kind of saves... by making it where not everyone in the game has it just with that bare splash, they can now balance against a group of classes rather than full pally saves. The proposed new formula already allows for massive save bonuses even with bare splashes... just it wouldn't be unlimited anymore.

The thing is, you should not HAVE to have 70+ saves to be able to handle EE content... but the fact that pure Pally gets that, it will have nice synergy with the proposed defense changes. Instead of needing to splash rogue/monk to get the benefit of their high reflex, they can go pure with full turtle, taking half damage due to high reflex followed by half or more negated again. Taking less than a quarter (or much less if it's an AOE spell) of spell damage (along with half no-save) would make Pally one of the sturdiest tanks able to just absorb physical (assuming PRR changes) and magical damage better than a fighter or any other class. Add in the proposed damage touches, and I see THOSE as items that would increase the Pally population. Though I don't think the goal should be able to make Pally comparable DPS to that of a Fighter tank - further buffs should be in the direction of more Lay on Hands, better smites, etc. in the strain of holy crusader rather than master of weapons and shields (aka not giving them more feats to be able to afford full lines like Fighters can).

[Xyfiel]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

Try going from +31 to +8. I am going to lose a lot of dps and spell dc in order to make up that up partially with twists, aps, and feats. The new build will also have a different class split so it isn't even the same build anymore.

[Grailhawk]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.


What problem is this trying to solve?

If its trying to solve the problem that 2 Paladin is to strong a splash because it gives to large a bonus to saves then this is not enough of a nerf. I suggest the equation x(1+RoundDown(x/5)) + 2 where x = Paladin Levels.

If its trying to solve the problem that people don't take levels beyond 6 of Paladin then whats the point as the issue is not related to divine grace. Paladin levels are not take beyond 6 because Paladin are a feat starved class with a very week DPS tree. There are other better ways of addressing that with out nerfing.

[Grace_ana]

Here it is, in excrutiating detail:

Imagine you're building a melee character. Imagine the capstone is kinda crappy. Imagine you're now looking at splashing 2 levels of another class because your capstone stinks.

Okay, in this hypothetical situation, splashing 2 paladin or 2 monk (or both!) is way, way, way, way, way more attractive than splashing two levels of any other class.

That is unbalanced.

In that scenario, the source of the imbalance isn't the splash classes. It's the crappy capstone. If you nerf the splash, does it make things more balanced? No, because the problem - the poor capstone - didn't change at all. All that will happen is that the next best splash will be substituted by everyone. With that method, eventually people will be screaming for a nerf to skaldic rage.

The splash isn't the problem. Fix the other levels.

[Arcanegrin]

In that scenario, the source of the imbalance isn't the splash classes. It's the crappy capstone. If you nerf the splash, does it make things more balanced? No, because the problem - the poor capstone - didn't change at all. All that will happen is that the next best splash will be substituted by everyone. With that method, eventually people will be screaming for a nerf to skaldic rage.

The splash isn't the problem. Fix the other levels.

There are no other splashes anywhere close to paladin and monk.

[thesnoman]

Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?


You are wrong sir. I have already clearly stated what my saves will look like.

I have a 16/4/2 Sorc/FvS/Pally. I have 50 Charisma un-buffed. 50 Charisma = +20 to my saves. My saves currently sit at 56/52/48 (Unbuffed). I could, with some gear tweaking, get my saves even higher, but I'm still losing 12 to all of my saves.

In EN and EH, this means nothing.
In EE beyond High Road, it means I go from about a 70-80% save chance to a < 50% save chance.

Hope this helps you realize the impact.

[Grace_ana]

There are no other splashes anywhere close to paladin and monk.

I don't recall people splashing paladin left and right a couple years or more ago. Now why do you think that is? Paladin didn't change.

[Arcanegrin]

I don't recall people splashing paladin left and right a couple years or more ago. Now why do you think that is? Paladin didn't change.

Since I started 2 years ago I'd say this is false, plenty of people were splashing paladin then.

Also this isn't 2 years ago. We now have +6 tomes and quite a bit better gear which makes stat inflation and paladin saves sky rocket.

[Grace_ana]

Since I started 2 years ago I'd say this is false, plenty of people were splashing paladin then.

Also this isn't 2 years ago. We now have +6 tomes and quite a bit better gear which makes stat inflation and paladin saves sky rocket.

I started four years ago, and I can tell you that paladin splashes were not remotely popular like they are now. Some people used them, but it was not common. Also, the tomes and gear are available to any class. So what then makes paladin splashes so attractive now, when they weren't before? Again, paladin hasn't changed; in fact it probably changed the least over that time period of all the classes and has suffered from the least amount of power creep.

[Ivan_Milic]

Since I started 2 years ago I'd say this is false, plenty of people were splashing paladin then.

Also this isn't 2 years ago. We now have +6 tomes and quite a bit better gear which makes stat inflation and paladin saves sky rocket.

+2 more from tome, and +3 more from gear sure does make pally saves sky rocket.

[Grace_ana]

I'm also going to add this as another divergent point. I realize that, as an MMO, the game sometimes needs to diverge from DnD. But I think that needs to happen only when there is a clear need for it that can't be met any other way. I think it's taking way too much license to change the way divine grace works from DnD when doing so doesn't accomplish any rational purpose, and/or when a rational purpose can be accomplished another way. Changing DG just doesn't come close to passing that litmus test.

[Arcanegrin]

+2 more from tome, and +3 more from gear sure does make pally saves sky rocket.

I'd say its even more then this. You can leave some stats completely alone now because of your tomes. So can easily add another +2 or 3 cha compared with before. Your now at +2 tome, +2-3 stat, +3 gear = 7-8, or another 3-4 saves. You think +3-4 saves isn't a big deal? Well maybe not in a world of +20 to all saves.

[Lonnbeimnech]

You are wrong sir. I have already clearly stated what my saves will look like.

I have a 16/4/2 Sorc/FvS/Pally. I have 50 Charisma un-buffed. 50 Charisma = +20 to my saves. My saves currently sit at 56/52/48 (Unbuffed). I could, with some gear tweaking, get my saves even higher, but I'm still losing 12 to all of my saves.

In EN and EH, this means nothing.
In EE beyond High Road, it means I go from about a 70-80% save chance to a < 50% save chance.

Hope this helps you realize the impact.

I ran a pdk version of that build for about 5 months, my saves were 75 71 71 with just shipbuffs and gh at level 28. You have plenty of room for tweeking.

[Grace_ana]

I ran a pdk version of that build for about 5 months, my saves were 75 71 71 with just shipbuffs and gh at level 28. You have plenty of room for tweeking.

So basically there will be fewer viable builds. Can't say that should be the goal.

[Lonnbeimnech]

So basically there will be fewer viable builds. Can't say that should be the goal.

I'm not sure how you got there from what I said.

What I expect to happen is for other builds to come out of this. Don't forget this proposed change is to happen at the same time as the introduction of magic resistance rating, where a 500 damage fireball on a 200 prr build would do 112 damage before saves and fire absorbtion.

Might we see the return of the fighter in armor? could be.

[barecm]

The problem is that you can't keep changing one thing and expect any real fix. You have to basically wipe it all out and start over with all the lessons learned and build the entire feat, enhancement, class feats, and everything else that contributes to class effectiveness before you can expect the disparity between classes to be fixed... or at least the gap closed. Turbine is making the downward spiral of fixes... fix one thing and break 10 others as a result and losing players over it.

After 8 years, I think it is time to just stop tweaking. If you want to make things right, go ahead and officially stop development, go into maintenance mode, and start working on DDO II. Keep the one thing that is right in the game, the combat engine, and go build yourself a persistent world MMO based on DnD and you will have winner. This combat engine deserves better than what it has been given with this game lately.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I'm having trouble reconciling your two statements here.

Going from +15 saves to +8 saves is a "huge huge loss", yet having +15 in the first place isn't a big deal in terms of balancing character power?

Here's the difference:
breaking a character =/= breaking the game

[Grace_ana]

I'm not sure how you got there from what I said.

What I expect to happen is for other builds to come out of this. Don't forget this proposed change is to happen at the same time as the introduction of magic resistance rating, where a 500 damage fireball on a 200 prr build would do 112 damage before saves and fire absorbtion.

Might we see the return of the fighter in armor? could be.

It's logic. If you nerf options, there are fewer options. Also, the armor changes wouldn't have any effect on paladin splashes, since paladins frequently wear heavy armor. It's not pally splashes that are keeping people from wearing armor. Heck, it's not monk splashes either. It's the fact that armor doesn't really offer much right now.

In fact, the armor changes are a good example of what I am talking about here. The devs could nerf minks, nerf evasion, nerf whatever, but none of it would solve the actual problem of armor not being very good. So they are changing armor to be worthwhile. In this case, nerfing DG doesn't really solve the problem of unbalanced DCs in EE, which is what is causing people to invest so much in saves and therefore splash pally and monk levels.

Solve the problem, and you have greater diversity. Nerf, and you have less.

[azrael4h]

I'm sure others have said it, but these changes in the OP will not have any effect on Paladins at all, just kill off a relatively small number of 2Pal splashes.

The class trees are largely worthless. They are not front loaded, just not loaded at all.

1 - Gut the PRE trees and start over. Knight needs to work on ALL evil enemies, period. End of point. Fini. Every evil thing, be it Drow, Outsider, Politician, Used Car Salesman, or Manager. Defender needs to be not locked into shields, and needs more work. I've suggested this before, ad nauseum, Radiant Servant-type tree. Aura, Burst, etc... Make a high level Paladin something that raid groups would WANT in the group. Like Bards pre-U14 were greatly desired by everyone who ran a raid and Artificers generally still are. Like Healing Clerics. But, make sure they can do the dps to be worth a slot, or if built as a tank, hold aggro and survive while self-healing against the best dps a Barbarian or Monkcher can spew out.

2 - Sacrifice a goat.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Since I started 2 years ago I'd say this is false, plenty of people were splashing paladin then.

Also this isn't 2 years ago. We now have +6 tomes and quite a bit better gear which makes stat inflation and paladin saves sky rocket.

Damage has skyrocketed, but stats haven't. We have +6 tomes now compared to +4 tomes a few years ago. That's not "skyrocket". Even +11 stat items compared to +7 stat items isn't "skyrocket. Take *both* of those things together and you're looking at just +3 to saves from Divine Grace today compared to two years ago.

The difference isn't that max sustainable Cha on a non-Sorc is vastly higher than it used to be. The difference is that EE save requirements are vastly higher than they used to be, so you now have to go to absurd lengths (like taking 2 levels of a terrible class just to make your saves viable) to hit those target numbers for saving throws.

[HungarianRhapsody]

1 - Gut the PRE trees and start over. Knight needs to work on ALL evil enemies, period. End of point. Fini. Every evil thing, be it Drow, Outsider, Politician, Used Car Salesman, or Manager.

Please be responsible when you make statements like this. Saying that all of these groups are evil is patently offensive.

Many Outsiders are Neutral (Mephits) and some are even Good (Eladrin).


...all of the rest is reasonable, of course.

[Tscheuss]

These changes look promising. :)

[kierg10]

Here's the difference:
breaking a character =/= breaking the game

If people stop playing because they don't want to have to redo their toon again yes it does :)

[HungarianRhapsody]

If people stop playing because they don't want to have to redo their toon again yes it does :)

Apparently I didn't explain that well enough.

Breaking one character for one player =/= breaking the game balance for most players by making most builds non-viable.


For me, this comes down to two separate problems that Turbine isn't addressing. If Turbine addresses these two problems successfully, then Paladin will be balanced just fine with no changes to Divine Grace. If Turbine fails to address these two problems successfully, then the change to Divine Grace isn't going to matter anyway.

1) EE save target numbers are absurd. You shouldn't need to even consider Paladin splash in order to hit those target numbers. Paladin splash should be overkill (and therefore unattractive as an option compared to other class splashes).
2) Paladin levels 3-20 still suck.

[nibel]

Replying from the OP only, and saying in advance that I personally do not play on EE:


We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.

Before giving feedback on your suggestions, I think you guys should know exactly why Paladin is mostly a 2-level dip instead of going full to 20. That is my personal list, based on my personal experience with paladins.

Paladins are feat-starved. Fighters, rangers and monks have extra feats as class features. Rogues have a lot of class benefits that cover the feat gap (improved evasion, UMD, trap skills, sneak attack...). And Barbarians are a sad mess. So, if your only interest is playing "a melee-focused class", paladins are not your best option.
Paladins are very frontloaded. Paladins get 90% of their class features at level 4, only missing spells and remove disease. Except by thematic or past life reasons, you get a lot more benefits from multiclassing than keeping on pally shoes.
Smite Evil is a bad converted attack from PnP. While you can boost SE a lot via Exalted Smite, you kept the charges from PnP in a fast-action game. It have the same impact on a paladin playstyle as if you had kept vancian magic instead of adding a SP bar. You can fix this either by making it Adrenaline-like (buffs your next melee attack that hit), or Fusilade-like (Wind up a bit, and for a 6-10 seconds every hit is a smite). Or, with some math crunching beforehand, change it to an always-active bonus, since it only works on evil mobs (not neutral, like vermin, animals and oozes).
Turn Undead, in the hands of a cleric, is quickly turned useless by mob CR inflation. You can equip a level SEVEN item with your best turning bonus, and can never upgrade it anymore via items. A paladin Turn Undead is a weakened version of an already limited power. The only reason people don't call it more is because we have uses for turns to charge other abilities.
We need more spells. No arguments here. Paladin's spell list is short, sad, and mostly useless. You have Cure Wounds, Resist Energy, Divine Favor, Zeal, and MAYBE Protection From Evil and Deathward (If you don't party up with a divine). Everything else is situational at best, and newbie traps at worst. If we had four GREAT spells in each level, this alone would be enough reason to keep a paladin pure to 20. See what having 4 good top level spells do to artificer builds.
Holy Sword is too weak. It creates a weapon you can find around at level 12-14, and requires a unique component. Please, change it to a imbue spell.
Knight of the Chalice is too specialized. While some people don't mind changing enhancements before going into Outsider/Undead content to switch their KotC focus and maximize damage (which makes sense), there is a ton of content that do not have any of those mobs, making the KotC bonus as good as non-existent. It can be fixed raising their enemy types to "tainted cratures" like Shintao (Evil Outsiders, Undead, Aberrations, Elementals), or broadening the tree to be more effective against evil mobs in general.
Tanking requires a ton of feats. So, read above about how paladins have few, precious feats. While a pure paladin tank can do its job well, a fighter tank have a lot more tools to play, only lacking the paladin self-healing capabilities (which in epics is covered by cocoon and family)
Last, but not least, alignment restrictions are on the heavier side with them. By being lawful good by default, you remove multiclass possibilities with barbarian, bard, or druid. And taking extra damage from Unholy Blight and Chaos Hammer (which divine mobs love to cast). I know the alignment restrictions are there from source, but I hate it anyway.


People complain about paladin DPS, but I think they are in a good place for such a survivor class (high defensive stats and self-healing). Fix Smite Evil to work fine in a fast paced real time combat, and everything will be ok.


~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

Paladins are already a tough class, and I don't see where adding more HP on top of that would help them.


~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

I think those benefits would be better placed in the KotC core benefits than the general class benefits. Of course, extra damage is cool, and adding +10 damage per hit per hand is nice and all, but during HEROIC, paladins don't really need this extra DPS, and on epics, this damage being non-multiplicative will make them inferior to base-damage increases.


We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

Too high. Think more double paladin levels. +4 at level 2, up to +40 at cap (If you somehow have a 90 Charisma score). Maybe 2 + (2 x Paladin Level), to cover for starting charisma 18 at level 1. But I think 2x is better simply to allow an easier explanation. No need to involve third grade arithmetic when we can achieve the same with basic math.

"But then, instead of getting pally, I will go half elf with pally dilettante". Ok, and good luck not needing those 17 AP somewhere else for your +5 to all saves.

[nibel]

I don't recall people splashing paladin left and right a couple years or more ago. Now why do you think that is? Paladin didn't change.

I remember specifically when ToD was endgame, to ask on advice if getting 2 pally levels in my sorc would be good for the massive save bonus. The answer was something in the lines of "you don't need saves that high to succeed."

[Grace_ana]

Damage has skyrocketed, but stats haven't. We have +6 tomes now compared to +4 tomes a few years ago. That's not "skyrocket". Even +11 stat items compared to +7 stat items isn't "skyrocket. Take *both* of those things together and you're looking at just +3 to saves from Divine Grace today compared to two years ago.

The difference isn't that max sustainable Cha on a non-Sorc is vastly higher than it used to be. The difference is that EE save requirements are vastly higher than they used to be, so you now have to go to absurd lengths (like taking 2 levels of a terrible class just to make your saves viable) to hit those target numbers for saving throws.

Bingo. Which is why diving grace and paladin splashes aren't OP. It's just that you have to search out everything you can to survive, and some classes have less access to save boosting than others. Balance EE and this isn't a problem.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.

Sev, I think you need to have a little chat with Sev and make sure you're on the same page before implementing anything:



We don’t want to hurt Evasion builds. We would rather bring the mitigation of armor and shields to those levels. Our only caveat is we don’t want Evasion builds to be able to reach the highest levels of physical mitigation on top of their existing defenses.

...

Meanwhile characters in light or no armor could use Evasion to attempt to negate the damage entirely.

...

Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional.




~ The Evasion builds with high Dodge will have more severe damage spikes, but overall damage will still be lower thus conserving healing spell points *if* the healer can keep them alive during the spikes.

...

~ ...We love our Evasion builds, but we do want other options that can compete in tough content.

Sev~

You know, your proposed nerf to Divine Grace, which is working as it has since 2006 and as per 3.5 PnP on which DDO is supposedly based, would definitely hurt some of those Evasion builds you stated in the other thread that you don't want to hurt. Evasion melee need exceptionally high saves to go with their evasion, since they are not getting the high PRR and MRR values that medium and heavy armor users are now slated to receive. Nerfing the reflex saves on evasion melee by 5, 6, 7, even 10+ points will make those builds no longer viable. Without a very high reflex, evasion doesn't count for squat.

It's great that you are looking to make medium and heavy armored melee worthwhile in high level content, but it makes no sense to add those new options while removing a number of the evasion build options at the same time. Your buffing of non-evasion armor already does the job of making non-evasion melees a viable choice (combined with improvements to enhancement trees of those melees in need of it, of course). A nerf to Divine Grace on top of that is entirely punitive, doing nothing constructive but breaking some current builds and needlessly upsetting a subset of players.

Once evasion + very high reflex aided by Divine Grace are no longer required for melee to survive in high end content, that will merely be one of several viable options. Unless, of course, you make the unfortunate and unnecessary decision to remove that as an option at the same time. In light of your other changes, I think it's pretty clear that Divine Grace is best left alone to function as it always has. More diversity = better.

[Cetus]

Youre free to roll a pure fighter again now, in heavy armor! Afterall, there was a lot of complaints about not beign able to do that when the enhancement pass came, coming from you.

I know I am, except pure fighter has been royally shafted as far as defense, offense, AND tactics are concerned.



You learn to adapt. In any MMO, if you come up with something that's too good you can expect it to be nerfed. Maybe it's time to start thinking about a new build then :)

P.S. IMO, Paladin splash is as broken as monk splash. PnP DMs realized this, that's why all the multiclass restrictions were in place for these classes.

I know how to adapt, I hate doing so for reasons I don't agree with. I'd gladly adapt by going back to pure fighter if they got buffed, I'm not glad to adapt to a change that helped melee's withstand the pressures of toe-to-toe combat if the player was able to *invest* for it. All the improved evasion monchers without divine grace could dance around EE bosses all day, so nerfing the all-so-powerful divine grace accomplishes what exactly?


1 point less, and you free up a twist spot... Also gives you access to Empower Heal feat, which might be useful for some builds.

Use that hard work and brainpower to adapt to 4 levels of paladin.

The only constant is change... How many times have you changed your build before now? Did you really think your current build would remain unchanged forever?

Sure I free up a twist slot, can get quicken, etc.. whatever. These are just other perks to the 4 pally splash that have existed in the past - and were as such weighed, very rigorously, against the competing perks when I crafted my build. The issue were zeroing in on here is divine grace. And as such, I still don't see the reason for this change, and how things turn out for the better after it. If I switch to 4 pally, I essentially get all my saves back, a free twist, perhaps quicken, but lose shadow fade if I cut into monk or I'll lose power surge if I cut into fighter. What exactly has been solved here? How is pally a more attractive class as a result of this change? The logic behind this is pure nonsense, and it arouses my suspicion that it emerged solely from the cries of people who might have watched videos of myself or others who performed well. In reality, this only acts as a major nuisance for people with builds such as mine - and still won't deter us from being just as efficient as we are today. I have gear, a crapton of past lives, and consumables to get my strength based characters charisma to a 40. Why should all of this investment undergo a proxy-punishment of a sort? I'm still waiting to hear a sensible answer. And by sensible, I mean a practical improvement in both paladin efficiency and appeal, and an increase in the appeal of going deeper in the remaining class (fighter, in my case).

My build is just an example, there are sorcerers who find good synergy here with the paladin splash. They sacrifice a LOT to gain a massive boost to their saves. Would anyone argue that a sorc running a 60 charisma receiving a 25 bonus to all their saves is unbalanced with respect to losing 2 caster levels, extremely important spell slots, and capstone which affects ability to enter apotheosis forms and -2 charisma? Now these sorcs would have to splash >>2 pally to get these same benefits if they so choose. No sorc in their right mind would splash pally that deep, so this change would virtually obliterate the little sorc build variety that currently exist. Pure sorcs are generally power houses now, the pally splash added a bit of flavor, now its gone.

Change for the sake of change isn't healthy for this game. There needs to be a practical improvement to a pressing issue here, and I don't see it.

[Sebastrd]

Ok. I'll make the "correct" argument for why divine grace should be nerfed. The reason it needs to be nerfed is not because its OP, and its definitely not to encourage more paladin levels. The real reason it needs to be nerfed is because it completely breaks the D20 system.

The D20 system is inherently broken at high level. Divine Grace has nothing to do with it.

Consider a Rogue vs. a Wizard at level 20. A Rogue has a "good" reflex save (+12), invests in Dexterity to start (18), puts level-ups into Dexterity (23), wears a +6 item (29), and uses a +5 tome (which are commonly bought in table-top D&D, and give our theoretical Rogue a Dexterity of 34). Our Rogue has a working reflex save of +24. Our Wizard has a "poor" reflex save of +6 and dumps Dexterity, because it is far less useful to a Wizard. He has a working reflex save of +5. In this situation, vs. any meaningful reflex save either the Rogue will auto-succeed or the Wizard will auto-fail.

Now consider DDO. As was posted earlier in the thread, it's possible for a Rogue to hit a +70 reflex save without Divine Grace. My Druid, at level 22, is sitting on a +29 reflex save. It is mathematically impossible to generate a reflex DC that challenges both characters, and Divine Grace hasn't even entered the equation.

[Munkenmo]

This poorly thought out nerf is par for the course sadly.

The problem isn't that divine grace gives too large a bonus, that's never been the problem. Once upon a time, there were reasonable ways to get useful saves without divine grace. Now monsters have absurd DC's so people have turned to divine grace to get useful saves.

Devs if you address monster DC's instead of nerfing divine grace the following happens:

I no longer need absurd saves so I start to consider splashing:

1-2 wiz for a feat, cleave and spell points
1-2 fvs/cleric for divine might, spell points, empower heal
1-2 druid for rams might, spell points, empower heal
1-2 barb for rage, movement speed & sprint boost
2 rogue evasion, umd, traps
2 arti umd, traps, runearm
2 fighter hasteboost 2 feats
2 monk evasion, 2feats, 4dodge, qualify for stances.
etc.

If saves are still absurd, I still have to take 2 paladin, but you just nerfed my build and I'll be angry.