Armor and Mitigation Changes

[Delacroix21]

As others have pointed out, the class most ignored by these changes who gets crushed in EE is barbarians.


Barbs survive damage through extra hp and their inherent DR. The extra hp has been made meaningless through the insane damage output of EE mobs, and their DR has been severely crushed by it stupidly being taken into account BEFORE PRR.


So let's say we have a pure barbarian who somehow manages to pull off 50 DR (which they can't), and enough PRR to have 50% mitigation (doubtful). An EE mobs hits them for 300 damage, 50 stopped by PRR, 250/2: 125.


If DR was counted LAST it would be: 300/2: 150, -50 damage: 100. This way the barbarian benefits 25% more from his DR! I would take this a step further and add a Epic feat requiring barbarian levels that doubles your inherent DR.



Not to mention no barbarian will be running around with a shield and so will still get destroyed by EE spells.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

*Head explodes*


Question: Is there really a need for light shields? It might be a good idea to combine light shields and bucklers. Basically, make all light shields into bucklers, and increase the stats of bucklers to what used to be light shields.

I would argue that these changes make there a need for light shields. (and finally a difference between them.)

[bbqzor]

We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.
I blame the poor explanation in the OP which did not define how it was replacing max dex, instead appearing as a cap to many. You should reword and reformat this change and try again. Put some effort into making sure its as detailed and simple to follow as it needs to be so everyone can understand. It is something which heavy armor and tower shields could use.


The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.
Does this change allowing Evasion with large shields? This fix only addresses half the problem facing current s/b evasion tanks, by allowing light armor again when using a shield. But without large shields and evasion, that doesnt help. Can you actually give us a direct comment about a large category of builds you are invalidating?


We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.
2012 called and wanted to point out we made the same arguments with the MOTU changes, almost exactly 2 years ago. Mithril Full Plate needs to remain Medium for proficiency considerations, but if you can make it add heavy prr/mrr values, that would be nice. Same with Mithril BP, allowing Evasion and being light, but keeping medium prr/mrr. Furthermore, multiple mithril shields have incorrect dex caps, armor check penalties, spell fail values, weights, etc. Can you simply look at the half dozen or so mithril named shields and ensure they are all correct. Stuff like the HoX shields have been wrong seemingly forever. If youre going to fix this, dig in and actually fix it all.


We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.
While allowing uncapped PRR is better for the game (theres no limit to saves or hp or anything else defense wise, adding a limit to prr is somewhat counter intuitive and leads to future itemization issues), hurting MRR simply because cloth/light armor guys might have evasion is likewise painful. What about barbs, who often wind up in light armor because of factors like the dodge cap, and the fact there are almost no medium named armors which are any good? They just put on light armor because they want to not die in melee and have few choices, and now it caps their other stuff? Or Bards. Spellsingers... no medium armor prof, no swash evasion... so they are just going to be capped on magic defense? The one defense a spellsinger sounds like it should be good at? This system is full of holes too. Take your time and iron it out... be sure it doesnt catch all these other classes/builds in the crossfire. Sigh.

[Scraap]

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.
Sev~

So S&B with the hit to DPS/Threat, or Heavy Armor with the hit to magic damage in order to retain the PRE benefits with each having additional built-in pros and cons for synergy when used togeather. Sounds like a reasonable direction.



~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

I dunno. Rather see you go with KISS on that. Yes, the computer can keep track of as many variables as we can throw at it, but player assessments need to see the results in a stark enough manner that they can tell where they need to improve, so fewer variations in the systems in play to cause confusion the better I'd think.



~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

Wouldn't be possible to make mithril worse unless you actively cut off ASF or something along those lines. The prior designer just flat out made it count as one category lower. Will agree


As I see it the different materials should add more PRR then MRR and vice versa. Say you have Mithril. Why not add a quarter less PRR for it but a quarter more MRR (or something like that) and for adamantine the reverse - so more PRR but less MRR? That would make the type of material special - plus with Mithril you generally get a better dodge cap anyways.
Seems like a good notion.

[Sardonica]

That is all.

[TFPAQ]

Ovrad talks about Peak damage, which we also call damage spikes. The design here is some builds will have higher total mitigation and have to deal with more damage spikes (Evasion builds with high Armor Class and Dodge) and some builds will take more overall damage but have a more predictable damage curve (Heavy Armor builds.)

~ The characters these changes benefit already have lower Reflex saves and thus are taking a lot of extra damage out of the gate.

~ The Evasion builds with high Dodge will have more severe damage spikes, but overall damage will still be lower thus conserving healing spell points *if* the healer can keep them alive during the spikes.

~ If we significantly reduced the MRR of this proposal heavy armor would simply not be as valuable as Evasion + high Reflex. We love our Evasion builds, but we do want other options that can compete in tough content.

Sev~

It is what you would expect in a "real" situation - Monk dodges (evades) and is pretty much untouchable, until he is touched then - ow. Full plate warrior, hunker down, turtle up and "come get some".

Barbs need some similar help (DR, etc ...).

I really like where this is headed - including the current magical resistance amounts initially laid out.

Nice ... very nice.

[TFPAQ]

o.O really? You are not going to buff dodge because a handful of people dont understand the benefit of the change? Your joking right?


I dont understand how a couple folks can change something like this. There are far more people in favor of the buff than whiners about some fringe build or people who ust plain dont understand the change.

As usual, I have to line up behind Impaqt on this one.

"Reading is fundamental" ... I hope the dodge "de-buff" gets a second look internally Turbine!

[Bridge_Dweller]

Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

What he said. You original ideas were better.

[Thrudh]

These look like great changes. Thanks!

I agree!

[Thrudh]

What he said. You original ideas were better.

I agree here too...

[Thrudh]

I still think evasion shluld be able to work with a large shield, not towers.


I agree with this too... Large shield and evasion is okay....

[Talon_Moonshadow]

/swings watch back and forth

You did not read anything about any future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans.

/snaps finger

Sev~

Mono-toning: I did not read anything about future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans.


/shakeshead

Uhmmm.. what were we talking about again?

[Delacroix21]

I kinda hope you would undo the dodge cap change to medium armor. It has always been inferior to heavy armor in every way, a 10% dodge cap made it a viable option. Please reverse this.

[Psiandron]

When PRR was introduced, mithral took a hit. That being said, Medium Cav plate and the like have been that way for quite a while. The quoted piece is reasonable but I think this overhaul is an opportunity for something more interesting.

Instead of treating mithral as medium armor with heavy PRR or whatever, how about leaving it as is with the following simple modification:

Mithral:
Armor is treated as one category type lighter then normal
-10% Arcane spell failure (to a minimum of 0)
3 reduction to Armor check penalty for armor (to a minimum of 0)
+2 increase of the maximum dexterity bonus to AC
1/2 standard weight
+ X stacking MRR

Adamantine:
Provides damage reduction (DR) based on the type of armor that is made from it: Light: 1/- damage reduction Medium: 2/- damage reduction Heavy: 3/- damage reduction
Hardness rating 10 points higher then equivalent steel armor
+X stacking PRR

The value of XP is worth debating. It could be a constant value like 10 or 20. It could scale based on the armor's enhancement value. Or it could be a combination of the two. Shields could also grant more on top of armor.

Intuitively, I personally think X should be about 20.

Yeah, I'd rather see it go back to the way it was, the way it was supposed to be. Not one thing changed on mithral armor when the last AC pass was done, except that it's AC and PRR were based of it's weight and not the armor type. Just reversing that would make it useful again, without any recourse to a lot of shucking and jiving.

Glad to see that you guys are considering this Sev. :)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

We have been looking at the epic elite melee damage.

That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.

When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~

From what I see EE monsters are fine.

At least for anyone who is not a brand new player.

My builds suck by most people's standards, but I use tactics to get by.

I see plenty of PUGs that power through EE with no problem. Roughly 50% by estimate...

Lowering EE monster stats will remove any challenging content we have.


And seriously, if people just slowed down and used tactics, most EE fights are easy for any build.
(some exceptions, generally small rooms with large spawns, no exits, and especially if they have casters with stun spells)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So there is no reason for a heavy armor wearer to concern himself/herself with reflex saves? I am not sure I like that - I think Will, Fortitude and Relfex is very nicely done in D&D in terms of balance, builds and ability scores. MRR does not require much investment that I can see unlike evasion requires saves and dexterity - I think that this is an insufficient proposal and ironically an odd nerf to paladins. I would like a comparable investment to reflex save for this new concept.

By the way D&D has officially left the building.

I was wondering this too.

Under the new system, does Ref save mean anything? (if you wear heavy armor)

[Bridge_Dweller]

I was wondering this too.

Under the new system, does Ref save mean anything? (if you wear heavy armor)

One would hope you could still save for half.

[Cleanincubus]

Casters with robe without evasion? Why would you do it? answer--> because you want an higher dc. From great power comes less defence.
Want to dodge incoming spell damage? splash 2 lvl of monk or rogue for evasion.
Want to stay pure (with higher dc) and reduce some spell damage coming your way? Invest in arcane spell failure stuff and wear medium armors and get insightful reflexes.
you gotta help yourself

I shouldn't have to splash with any other class. Nor should I have to change my build, and wear heavier armor. There should be less restrictions for all builds, not more. It's not like I'm talking about an uncommon build, just a simple pure caster one. And if they're taking the time do make these changes, they should do it right to benefit everyone.

[LordTigerDawn]

I just wanted to point out that the new PRR and MRR settings again nerf bards. They are stuck wearing light armour and do not get evasion till lvl 20 if only they are using swashbuckler.

This would not have been the case if you had moved evasion to lvl 12 of swashbuckler.

Bards all now have to splash 2 rogue for evasion, just to be competent where the defense balance is set.

Otherwise they are the bard sacrifice they are supposed to be.

---

[OverlordOfRats]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

/snip

Sev~

Please reinstate it. It was a dodge buff to all armor types except robes, which stayed the same at 25%.

I was looking forward to my tempest ranger who wears chain armor having a little better dodge.

[peng]

I made a chart comparing the new and old PRR formulas. Until you hit 210 PRR, the difference between the formulas is less than 1.22% mitigation. From 15 to 173 PRR, the new formula is (very slightly) worse.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sS2m0umstaOEEKitaawgzELVyGYEuD9rul2XpM83Vp8/embed/oimg?id=1sS2m0umstaOEEKitaawgzELVyGYEuD9rul2XpM83V p8&oid=1986769306&zx=oj0w1zhmlkh

[LuKaSu]

I just wanted to point out that the new PRR and MRR settings again nerf bards. They are stuck wearing light armour and do not get evasion till lvl 20 if only they are using swashbuckler.

This would not have been the case if you had moved evasion to lvl 12 of swashbuckler.

Bards all now have to splash 2 rogue for evasion, just to be competent where the defense balance is set.

Otherwise they are the bard sacrifice they are supposed to be.

---

If they fix Mithral to give protection one level higher than the weight class (i.e., Mithral Chain Shirt protecting like medium, but being light armor, like how it used to be), bards could have defensive options. Using mithral light armor for their swashbuckling evasive builds, or using Warchanter's medium armor casting proficiency with medium mithral (protecting like heavy, because it's mithral), it could give bard some pretty sweet defensive choices.

[thegreatneil]

If they fix Mithral to give protection one level higher than the weight class (i.e., Mithral Chain Shirt protecting like medium, but being light armor, like how it used to be), bards could have defensive options. Using mithral light armor for their swashbuckling evasive builds, or using Warchanter's medium armor casting proficiency with medium mithral (protecting like heavy, because it's mithral), it could give bard some pretty sweet defensive choices.

I agree.

[Krell]

Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

My voice of reason post of the day ;). If you consider changes from day 1 feedback, then consider adjustments from additional feedback as well.

[poltt48]

I like all the changes proposed except for dodge cap changes. The dodge cap changes going to really screw rogues. Rogues get the most dodge in the whole game now but don't have a high enough cap to take it. Then there the only high dodge class in game that has no enhancement to raise cap now how is. Now your going to lower it even more when they already have trouble surviving in EH and EE content. If changes do go live rogue pretty much become useless other then trap monkeys since they already take way to much damage. Just making them take even more is stupid.

[EllisDee37]

I like all the changes proposed except for dodge cap changes. The dodge cap changes going to really screw rogues. Rogues get the most dodge in the whole game now but don't have a high enough cap to take it. Then there the only high dodge class in game that has no enhancement to raise cap now how is. Now your going to lower it even more when they already have trouble surviving in EH and EE content. If changes do go live rogue pretty much become useless other then trap monkeys since they already take way to much damage. Just making them take even more is stupid.Totally agreed, except for the fact that you're completely wrong and the proposed (since scrapped) dodge changes would have INCREASED dodge for rogues, along with everyone else.

Why was the dodge increase scrapped? Because an avalanche of people misread or misunderstood the information just like you did.

[Yaga_Nub]

We have been looking at the epic elite melee damage.

That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.

When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~

Cool. Thanks for the reply. Now how about making Magic Resistance work for all spells and forget this crazy MRR idea?

[Scraap]

Cool. Thanks for the reply. Now how about making Magic Resistance work for all spells and forget this crazy MRR idea?

Granted: Now includes all magic, including hjeels as well. (Too oldschool DnD?) (Seriously though, could see the merit in that.)

[oradafu]

Just read the OP and like what I was reading. So I continued to browse this thread to see what changes have happened. Then I run into this statement from the Devs that contains completely asinine changes that ruin my intital interest in finally fixing one aspect of the game that's been broken for far too long:


Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

It looks like I'm yet another person that agrees with the following post:


Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

[Zzevel]

I kinda hope you would undo the dodge cap change to medium armor. It has always been inferior to heavy armor in every way, a 10% dodge cap made it a viable option. Please reverse this.


Undo the Dodge Cap and insate a jump cap for armor! [/:P]

The lighter the armor the more chance you have to dodge, I agree medium armor should have some sort of dodge advantage over heavy plate, but less than light or robes.

[sollor]

So the way i see it all Enhancements, Epic Destinies, Feats and Items that give PRR will also give MRR (for now).
so the Divine sphere Epic Past Life Feats will give you 27 prr and mrr which will give 16% less damage.
If you take Arcane sphere Epic Past Life Feats will give you 9% less damage.
my answer is give Arcane sphere Epic Past Life Feats mrr and take away the Absorption and take mrr from Divine sphere Epic Past Life Feats.

[Thar]

There is still the nerf to heavy shield users who will now be unable to use evasion. with no good light shields throughout the whole game, this will need to be added at all levels (along with bucklers for swashbucker) or the change is a big nerf to any evasion toon that uses shields.

[Synthetic]

If you're not having a PRR cap you should remove the dodge cap for wearing armor. It's unfair that armor wearers are penalized with no gain because of the dodge cap mechanic. In the original vision armor wearers would have had significant PRR over evasion toons, but due to changes in enhancements magic gear and feats it's simply no longer true. So just get rid of the dodge cap on armor/shields.

[lyrecono]

After all this i'm pleasantly surprised to see something done about all this melee malarkey.
Welcome to the forum Sev



These are separate enchantments. Current items will give PRR and MRR in equal amounts, but future items need not do so. There is design space for future loot to offer more of one or another.

Sev~

So, lets add things up shall we?
a lv 20 bladeforged kensai fighter/epic 8 in LD
45 prr from armor(body feat&docent)
30 from bracers
36 from past lives (27 martial, 9 pdk iconic), again assuming these will give mrr too
no shield due to 1 handed fighting style (using a Thunderholm kopesh&orb)
-------=111 prr. (taking 57% melee damage) and an assumed 111 mrr, (57% magical damage taken), diminished dodge.

vs the centered bladeforged monk6/pally2/fighter 12/epic 8 in LD, owning epic reflexes
36 from pastlives
12 from earth stance
15 from standing with stone
30 from bracers
-------=93 prr (taking 61% melee damage) and no reflex related damage taken, note: max dodge bonus possible

vs full plate wearing pally/fighter using a tower shield
200 prr (number taken from this tread) comes to roughly 43%

So this change will give the full plate&tower shield wearing fighter a 18% melee dr but looses 57% ref based damage mitigation over a popular melee build.
I'm not convinced, yet...
More feats, ED's etc will dilute the numbers further but at least it's a start


Evasion builds have to stack Reflex saving throw bonuses, while heavy armor builds will want to stack PRR (and thus MRR) to reach similar levels of mitigation. Both should make sacrifices to gear towards mitigation.

Sev~

will it really close the gap?
Does the new prr on armor stack with the older system? (prr=6+bab for plate mail)
Will Warforged body feats be brought in line with normal armors? (they do cost a feat, it is expected they work as intended)
Will those melee classes gain enhancements to make the 1 handed feat line work with the bigger shields? it seems only logical since tanks really need some dps to hold said agro (no use building defense if the ranged toons take agro away in on shot).

From wiki:
Player characters can actively block by holding the block key (default: left shift). While blocking, a character gains +2 Armor Class, has increased Damage Reduction, and is immune to most special attack and weapon effects. This includes, but is not limited to, Scorpion/Spider Poison, Wraith Constitution Drain, and damage enchantments such as Crippling, Flaming, Wounding, Maladroit, and even Bane.

Wouldn't it have been easier to create an enhancement in the tank lines that make you considered blocking 100% of the time for the purpose of block energy (ED and past live), Shield deflection and the stuff mentioned above to compensate for the lag instead of adding another system? The added prr is appreciated though.

[Tscheuss]

I liked the original ideas posted in the OP. They had the added potential of making mithril special again. Imagine a large mithril shield granting the protections of a large shield, but considered a light shield for the purposes of evasion or any other penalty. Medium mithril armor could be in high demand for the same reasons. :)

[HastyPudding]

If you're not having a PRR cap you should remove the dodge cap for wearing armor. It's unfair that armor wearers are penalized with no gain because of the dodge cap mechanic. In the original vision armor wearers would have had significant PRR over evasion toons, but due to changes in enhancements magic gear and feats it's simply no longer true. So just get rid of the dodge cap on armor/shields.

That's one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on these forums...

No dodge cap? So people in outfits/robes getting tons of dodge from enhancements and feats and the right gear setup can have upwards of 35-40+ dodge chance? That completely blows any AC you can get out of the competition with less than half the work needed and almost no loss in dps. That's beyond constructive into the realms of breaking the game.

[Standal]

Why does MRR need to exist? If you want to give heavy armor tanks protection against magical effects, put absorption or spell absorption on heavy armor and shields. MRR in the example posed by the devs is not only like evasion, it's better. It's more than enough to fix PRR such that it's a much more linear benefit. It would be nice if you could actually make AC work also.

This is almost certainly a horrible change. Either it won't make any difference to any but the most tweaked out defender builds or it will be completely overpowered and all FOTM builds will now be high PRR/MRR. Just depends what the actual math turns out to be.

[thegreatneil]

That's one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on these forums...

No dodge cap? So people in outfits/robes getting tons of dodge from enhancements and feats and the right gear setup can have upwards of 35-40+ dodge chance? That completely blows any AC you can get out of the competition with less than half the work needed and almost no loss in dps. That's beyond constructive into the realms of breaking the game.

....ON armor.

[Xyfiel]

To think if they would have made spell resistance work on damage spells like it should be and not jacked up CR's way too high, we could have used real "magic" resistance that already exists in DND. Spell Resistance is already in game and doesn't work, why don't you fix that?

AC, DR, and SR already covered most of the recent changes from the past few years(PRR, MRR, Dodge). Now things are just overly complicated.

[Pseudograph]

Some character/build types now popularly played can have amazing defensive abilities including evasion.

The MOST amazing still will after this change because they have advantages greater than what a shield provides.

This will not be the fortune of those builds that REQUIRE the benefit of an ADEQUATE shield to achieve some (certainly not nearly all) of that defensive capability.

If you are suggesting that all characters (not just Stalwart/Sentinel types) will no longer be able to use evasion with a large shield, this change would be outrageously (and
unnecessarily) extreme and cause only greater imbalance.

Light armor evasion tanks make real sacrifices to do their "job". Using a shield is not without costs.

Is it your intention to give shield users more "DPS" (or some other "special" consolation prize) than a poor tank should be allowed?!

My question is Why?

P.S. I think Captain America was wondering about this too.

Pseudograph

[ScoobieDoo]

So, lets add things up shall we?
a lv 20 bladeforged kensai fighter/epic 8 in LD
45 prr from armor(body feat&docent)
30 from bracers
36 from past lives (27 martial, 9 pdk iconic), again assuming these will give mrr too
no shield due to 1 handed fighting style (using a Thunderholm kopesh&orb)
-------=111 prr. (taking 57% melee damage) and an assumed 111 mrr, (57% magical damage taken), diminished dodge.

vs the centered bladeforged monk6/pally2/fighter 12/epic 8 in LD, owning epic reflexes
36 from pastlives
12 from earth stance
15 from standing with stone
30 from bracers
-------=93 prr (taking 61% melee damage) and no reflex related damage taken, note: max dodge bonus possible


Interesting comparison between the evasion and non-evasion build. Perhaps they can change it so the enhancement bonus on armor include a PRR/MRR bonus as well. Currently, there's no point getting anything more than +1 enhancement cause the rest just gives a small boost to AC which is useless for most players. Providing an enhancement bonus to PRR/MRR will make the difference between the PRR realistically attainable by the typical non-evason vs evasion build more apparent.

Maybe something like this for starters :
robe/cloth = no PRR bonus to enhancement level
light armor = 1 PRR bonus per enhancement level
medium armor = 2 PRR bonus per enhancement level
heavy armor = 3 PRR bonus per enhancement level

[nibel]

Physical Resist Rating
The first change is to prepare Physical Resist Rating for use in the armor changes. The formula for the rating will change to the following formula, with the resulting multiplier applied to all physical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

(...)

PRR and MRR Cap for armor (tentative, work in progress)

Robes or Outfit: -/100
Light Armor: -/200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap

Make PRR linear instead of diminishing returns. Hard cap it by armor type (ignore shield for now). Tweak current PRR equipment numbers if needed. I would cap it in increments of 20%: Robe 20, Light 40, Medium 60, Heavy 80. Make each armor tier give inherent 10 PRR. Each shield starting from light tier should give inherent 5 PRR (buckler gives only 1).

Examples:

-Robe and no shield: Cap 20, inherent 0.
-Light armor and no shield: Cap 40, inherent 10.
-Light armor and light shield: Cap 20, inherent 15 (10 + 5).
-Medium armor and heavy shield: Cap 60, inherent 30 (20 + 10).
-Heavy armor and no shield: Cap 80, inherent 30.
-Heavy armor and tower shield: Cap 80, inherent 45 (30 + 15).

This way, since the damage reduction is percentage-based, it scales right all the way from 1 to 30. Heavy armored characters will easily achieve the top tier of PRR, while things like Earth stance can be worked to "be considered as if wearing light armor" for cap reasons (Earth Stance as a whole need a balance nerf, but lets not digress on it).

Enchanted armor provides extra 2 PRR per enhancement bonus. Enchanted shields provides extra 1 PRR per enhancement bonus

Mage Armor gives 10 PRR. Shield spell (but not nightshield) gives 5 PRR. Epic Mage Armor gives 20 PRR and the target is considered to be wearing light armor (receiving a cap of 40).

PDK/Divine past lives can be reworked to give 1 PRR per tier instead of 3. With a linear progression, 1% is higher than 3 PRR almost all the time.

On top of that, DR will start to be counted AFTER PRR percentual damage reduction. So, a higher PRR makes DR more useful instead of less.

=============

Now, on MRR, I think the armor caps should be different: Increments of 15%. Robe 15, Light 30, Medium 45, Heavy 60. But, this time, shields will be considered. Bucklers will provide an additional 5, Light/Heavy additional 10, Tower additional 15, Runearms additional 20 (because it absorbs environmental energy for its shots), and Orbs additional 30 (Because they were developed to defend against magic).

Yes, this means a heavy armor cleric with an orb have a 90% MRR cap.

Absorption items will be reworked to give out MRR against their specific element, thus making them non-stackable between different values of the same absorb quality (But stacks with the general MRR bonus).

Armor by itself does not give inherent MRR, unless they are enchanted. Each +1 on armor will provide +1 MRR. Each +1 on shields will provide +3 MRR. Each +1 on orbs will provide +5 MRR. (Not sure how to set on runearms. +4 per max tier?)

On top of that, elemental resistance will start to be counted AFTER MRR percentual damage reduction. So, a higher MRR makes the resists more useful instead of less.

===================

Probably not hitting the same things you aimed at the dev reunion, but this would be my takes on PRR/MRR mechanic.

[Aviya]

Why does MRR need to exist? If you want to give heavy armor tanks protection against magical effects, put absorption or spell absorption on heavy armor and shields. MRR in the example posed by the devs is not only like evasion, it's better. It's more than enough to fix PRR such that it's a much more linear benefit. It would be nice if you could actually make AC work also.

This is almost certainly a horrible change. Either it won't make any difference to any but the most tweaked out defender builds or it will be completely overpowered and all FOTM builds will now be high PRR/MRR. Just depends what the actual math turns out to be.

Kinda have to sign this.
Just go for new Enhancements in the stalwart and defender trees that grant a 10/20/30 % absorbsion of all incoming spell damage when wearing medium and 15/30/45 % when wearing heavy armor.
Just some math to explaine why 45% magical damage absorption is not too powerful compared with evasion:

1000 points of Fire damage coming your way in Fire in Thunder raid.
If its epic elite 99% of current evasion builds don't make their save when Rolling 1 because the dc of the fireball is very high.
-character 1 with evasion like dex based Ranger in Light armor: takes 0 damage on successful reflex save and 50% on 2 failed reflexes save (because Fire Shield scrolls are important) so a total of 1000 damage over 20 fireballs.
-character 2 with improved evasion same reflex save like a rogue or monk: takes 500 damage over 20 fireballs.
-Character 3 with heavy armor and high reflex like pally: takes 137 damage on a reflex save (1000-->500 with save-->275 with new 45% heavy armor absorption enhancement-->137-->fireshield) and 275 on failed reflex save for a total of 3025 damage over 20 fireballs so it would still take 3 times more damage that an evasion character and 6 time more than an improved evasion one but it would be much better than the current situation.


Also do the same with eldritch knight tree and warpriest tree so its something that can be used by pure dc casters like palemasters and dc clerics.
It would be perfectly Balanced just because it Would work only in medium and heavy armor so there is zero chance to stack evasion on top of this.

(Barbarian for example can get this Bonus by splashing 1 Level as a fighter/cleric/fvs/wiz to unlock the enhancement from the tree or can go for 2 lvl of rogue and have evasion up to the.player choise )

[Merlin-ator]

I haven't ran any numbers yet, so my reply may not be worth much. I may also be missing a few key points of the proposal, through fog of sleeplessness. Lots of ideas on the matter, though.


This is a pretty good idea. I'm not too clear on how MRR is different from PRR (does one always affect the other?), but adding it and combining it with higher PRR would go a long way towards making heavily armored characters viable in EN and EH.

I may be reading this wrong, as I'm pretty tired, but I'm seeing that having a high PRR gives a damage multiplier. This is a good idea, allowing S&B tanks to have some nearly-acceptable damage numbers. After all, they do spend plenty of feats to maximize damage mitigation, feats that can't be spent getting reasonable DPS. My only concern is that it may not be enough to compete with THF or even TWF. I'll need to run numbers later. Will this apply before or after +[W] modifiers? Melees need an AoE attack, especially tanks who need to get hate.

Maybe allow heavy shield uses to get evasion. Stay strong on tower, though.

Rebalancing EE creatures to respond to high AC is not enough. Most, if not all monster to-hits need to be rebalanced so that a for a tank character running heroic elite/epic hard to see misses more than 5% of the time. If AC got bugged so that all characters had 0AC (but the correct value displayed on their character sheet) I doubt anyone would notice. Maybe it's time to remove AC entirely, or to change it to a bonus to PRR.

Please have armor type (Celestial, Feycraft, etc) give bonuses to PRR/MRR or remove them entirely. Due to the aforementioned uselessness of AC, all that really matters on armor is whether it's classed as robe, light, med, or heavy, and it's magical enchantments.

Could adamantine be changes give a bonus to PRR/MRR? It was kinda nice in the old AC system, but post-Menace it's only worth it if you can get something high with it, like the 20/Lawful from Angelskin.

One more thing: Please fix Mithril/Darkwood/Densewood/Darkleaf armors. Especially the wood-type armors, druids kinda need those to be less gimpy.


As one who has loathed the armor changes from MotU, and has championed every opportunity to get the old system back, no matter how long ago the ship has sailed, I'm really psyched about this. If this can be done right, and have the changes be competitive with the current LA+evasion, be satisfying, and allow the evasion+Light armor option to stay a viable choice, these changes have the possibility to be better than the old system by several light-years. It just has to be enough of a change to be worth playing a heavy toon, but not so far ahead that Rogues are mega-squishy and die from a single enemy Cleave.

EDIT: Forgot to ask: How is Shieldbearer/Vanguard going to work? Are they going to be available to all classes, or just fighters/palas?

[J-mann]

If you're not having a PRR cap you should remove the dodge cap for wearing armor. It's unfair that armor wearers are penalized with no gain because of the dodge cap mechanic. In the original vision armor wearers would have had significant PRR over evasion toons, but due to changes in enhancements magic gear and feats it's simply no longer true. So just get rid of the dodge cap on armor/shields.

Sure, soon as robes get a free 45 prr/mrr and the ac of heavy armor. The difference between the investments isnt even remotely similar either. I have already shown that 100 prr and 25 dodge takes MUCH more damage than 250 prr and 5 dodge, and its much more spiky. People act like 25 dodge is something so super great, no, its the similar to 25% mitigation, in fact it is some ways inferior. Also do not fall into the percentages trap, 25 dodge and 25% reduction is NOT the same as a 50% reduction. Assume 100 1 damage hits, the former would take 56.25 damage, the later 50 damage, for an edge of 12.5%. In the first case of 100 prr and 25 dodge vs 250 prr and 5 dodge is roughly 12.5% in favor of the plate, without the spikes in damage the robes will take.

Now as to mrr, mrr applies to a bunch of things that evasion does not and applies to everything evasion DOES. Further the investment to get a working reflex save plus evasion plus no fail on one is MUCH more than getting a good mrr, and a good mrr will work on a HUGE list of damage spells that evasion does not. Please actually look at the math and the other extranalities and not just say... hurrr durrr dodge is capped so should prr hurr.....

[Zakharov]

I understand the need for melee mitigation but adding blanket magical mitigation to all armor/shields makes no sense at all and reduces what should be part of the strategy - "what armor should I wear for this encounter?" That should be just as much part of planning encounters as "what weapon should I use?"

Please consider removing MRR as an automatic addition to all armor/shields and instead adding it as a powerful prefix/suffix for random/named loot. Adding it to specific named armors/shields that have the lore of providing specialized protection against magic makes more sense and provides more incentive to equip that type of gear.


Whatever plan you go with let me add my normal plea: All abilities, gear, enhancements etc players have - the enemies should have as well and the AI to use them. That's the best way to make encounters interesting.

[Tilomere]

I think if we knew what everyone needed, the system that fit it would appear.

The "right" amount of magical absorption I found on my druid/barb/cleric experience was 50% fire shield, 30% shield deflection, and 20% past life, for 72% mitigation on a character with solid self healing and a fairly solid hp pool, and was only possible because Druids use unarmed as their shield bash when shapeshifted so can have the deflection abilities active at will. Druids don't really need magical protection when wearing medium/heavy armor and shape shifted with a shield/shield feats, but do show that medium/heavy armor builds need around 70% mitigation one way or the other. But I only started needing this amount of absorption starting in shavarath (epic lvls).

For barbs, without fire shield, shield deflection, self healing, or past lives, 70% has to come from ?.

Paladins get saves for 50%, so need another source of reduction or to have their saves ultimately mean more to get to 70%.

A pure fighter in heavy armor needs 70% from ?

A pure cleric in heavy armor needs 70% from ?

I'm inclined to say just add 70% magical damage reduction to heavy/medium epic armors, let paladins be harder to kill, and call it a day. I can't honestly see myself playing non-viable medium and heavy armor wearers with less than 70% reflex mitigation under any circumstances.

[lyrecono]

Interesting comparison between the evasion and non-evasion build. Perhaps they can change it so the enhancement bonus on armor include a PRR/MRR bonus as well. Currently, there's no point getting anything more than +1 enhancement cause the rest just gives a small boost to AC which is useless for most players. Providing an enhancement bonus to PRR/MRR will make the difference between the PRR realistically attainable by the typical non-evason vs evasion build more apparent.


thank you, i was typing this at 03:00 last night, right after reading it, i'm glad it came out as it is.
The estimates are rough, changing ed's, feats and enhancements will blur the numbers even more.
The point i (in a very sleepy mode) tried to make was that the evasion version came "somewhat" ahead, compared to a full plate fighter.
we had a similar discussion earlier in guild about a lv 28 pure fighter kensai in ld and a lv 28 pure (undead) wizard
When levels go up and take into account all the gear/ed stuff etc the gap in hp between the wiz and fighter wasn't that big anymore.
The same happens here between the 2.

There is too little information on the idea to make working models though.
that's why i made the suggestion on the enhancements:
Assuming 30% (epic pastlife), 30% (block energy ed twist), 20/25/30/40% (shield deflection, pending on shield type) will give you a powerful absorption, assuming it all stacks as it should, a 80% on a buckler and a 100% on a tower shield.
Add an enhancement that lets you be considered blocking all the time (like a stance) and you can skip the development of mrr entirely!
Saving us from 3 months of bug and exploit fixes
Just make sure it absorbs everything! Magic miscles, dots etc.

[Aviya]

thank you, i was typing this at 03:00 last night, right after reading it, i'm glad it came out as it is.
The estimates are rough, changing ed's, feats and enhancements will blur the numbers even more.
The point i (in a very sleepy mode) tried to make was that the evasion version came "somewhat" ahead, compared to a full plate fighter.
we had a similar discussion earlier in guild about a lv 28 pure fighter kensai in ld and a lv 28 pure (undead) wizard
When levels go up and take into account all the gear/ed stuff etc the gap in hp between the wiz and fighter wasn't that big anymore.
The same happens here between the 2.

There is too little information on the idea to make working models though.
that's why i made the suggestion on the enhancements:
Assuming 30% (epic pastlife), 30% (block energy ed twist), 20/25/30/40% (shield deflection, pending on shield type) will give you a powerful absorption, assuming it all stacks as it should, a 80% on a buckler and a 100% on a tower shield.
Add an enhancement that lets you be considered blocking all the time (like a stance) and you can skip the development of mrr entirely!
Saving us from 3 months of bug and exploit fixes
Just make sure it absorbs everything! Magic miscles, dots etc.

I propose a simple new enhancement in stalwart, defender, eldrich and warpriest tree that works only if you wear medium or heavy armor (so no evasion to stack) absorbing 10/20/30 % of incoming magical damage for medium and 15/30/45 % for heavy armor.

1000 points of Fire damage coming your way in Fire in Thunder raid.
If its epic elite 99% of current evasion builds don't make their save when Rolling 1 because the dc of the fireball is very high.
-character 1 with evasion like dex based Ranger in Light armor: takes 0 damage on successful reflex save and 50% on 2 failed reflexes save (because Fire Shield scrolls are important) so a total of 1000 damage over 20 fireballs.
-character 2 with improved evasion same reflex save like a rogue or monk: takes 500 damage over 20 fireballs.
-Character 3 with heavy armor and high reflex like pally: takes 137 damage on a reflex save (1000-->500 with save-->275 with new 45% heavy armor absorption enhancement-->137-->fireshield) and 275 on failed reflex save for a total of 3025 damage over 20 fireballs so it would still take 3 times more damage that an evasion character and 6 time more than an improved evasion one but it would be much better than the current situation.

If you are a tank with a shield you can stack shield blocking mechanics to improve your survivability and it's a reward to player skill and reactive playstyle instead of a passive one.

[lyrecono]

If you are a tank with a shield you can stack shield blocking mechanics to improve your survivability and it's a reward to player skill and reactive playstyle instead of a passive one.[/I]

The first problem with this is that you can't run while blocking and 80% of ddo's content is run through to begin with.
The second problem is trying reward player skill in a game where the most dangerous mob is the lag monster, i personally never had lag besides part 1 in the shroud (before chests) and ramp in "Enter the kobold", since U19 i see it more and more, people freezing between 30 to 120 seconds, people dc-ing, loosing connection to the chat server etc is making reactive gameplay less and less atractive.
(and no "get better gear" remarks please, if 32 gig internal memory, a dedicated ddo ssd, 6core i7proc, 64 bits windows, 2 high end graphic cards, fiber optic connection, fresh install etc doesn't work, what will?)

Making it a tier 5 defender enhancement will lock splashes out of the auto block feature.
Saves us from developer time and the fix backlash.

[Aviya]

Making it a tier 5 defender enhancement will lock splashes out of the auto block feature.
Saves us from developer time and the fix backlash.

It shouldn't be stuff for tanks only.
The devs and the players want to reduce gap between evasion characters and non evasion heavy armored characters.
That's why I'm saying just a T1 simple enhancement in defender, eldrich and warpriest trees that any class can take if they don't want to have evasion.
It would help to reduce the incoming damage when you wear medium or heavy armor and would also benefit tanks because they would get to stack shield block mechanics on top of that rewarding an active playstyle

[Arlathen]

1. Change to Physical Resist Rating Formula
- No issues with this.


2. Introduction of Magical Resist Rating
- This is really good, I like the idea of being able to 'absorb' magical damage as a person who invests in the appropiate feats, enhancements and equipment.

- I also approve that items providing PRR should provide the same level of MRR retroactively. While there's scope for seperate gear enhancements for PRR/MRR, I would like to see a combined enhancement continued.

3. Armor and Ratings
- I agree with the outline values of PRR/MRR per armour type.

- I think its a good move to remove BAB as part of the equation to simplify things. Most characters have a way to achieve BAB = Heroic Class level anyway.

- I also agree with the outline values of PRR/MRR per Shield type.

- I think a slight change in shield multiplier to support a change to Evasion Restrictions is warranted:


Buckler: 1.0x / no additional PRR/MRR
Light Shield: 1.0x / no additional PRR/MRR
Heavy Shield: 1.5x / +50% additional PRR/MRR
Tower Shield: 2.0x / +100% additional PRR/MRR


In addition, this differentiates Tower & Large Shields further, making a choice between two more meaningful.


4. Resist Rating Caps and Evasion
- I agree with the current stance on what armours negate the Evasion Feat.

- Again, I think a slight change to Shield restrictions should be undertaken:

Buckler: Evasion or Improved Evasion both allowed
Light Shield: Evasion or Improved Evasion both allowed
Heavy Shield: Evasion allowed, no Improved Evasion
Tower Shield: No Evasion or Improved Evasion

These changes make Light Armour/Heavy Shield Evasion tanks still viable but also rewards Heavy Armour/Tower Shield tanks with more viability with more overall PRR/MRR for there investment of Armor/Shield choice.

- I think you should more heavily restrict PRR/MRR Hard Caps on different Armor Types:

Robes or Outfit: 75 PRR/75 MRR
Light Armor: 150 PRR/150 PRR
Medium Armor: 250 PRR/250 MRR
Heavy Armor: No Cap


Light Armour/No Armour already benefits from potential Evasion use, and has Improved Evasion been considered in this equation? With a PRR/MRR of 100 and Improved Evasion, your typical Monk is going to Automatically avoid 70% of incoming magical damage, even with a Reflex save of 0 when playing in Epic Elite content.

So, I think it it would also be a good idea to allow this cap to be raised if wearing a Shield:

Buckler: +5 PRR/MRR
Light Shield: +10 PRR/MRR
Heavy Shield: +30 PRR/MRR
Tower Shield: +50 PRR/MRR


This helps encourage the use of shields of Defensive purposes, even on Light/No Armour toons.

- I also think that the original statement for minimum Dodge Caps should be re-introduced, with the proviso that special armours can exceed these Dodge Caps based on MDB values as well as allowing current Feats, Enhancements and Epic Destiny abilities to raise these Dodge Caps if the MDB of the Armour exceeds the Dodge Cap.

Let me explain a little further on this point: The original proposal stated that Heavy Armour would have a Dodge Cap of 5%, even if the armour only provided 3 MDB. Thats fine, and I have no problem with a Heavy Armour wearer receiving 5% Dodge through appropiate feats or enhancements. If the said armor wearer was to wear a Mobility Item (+2MDB), take Sacred Armour Mastery 3 from Sacred Defender and also twiste Lithe from Shadow Dancer then that should allow the Heavy Armour wearer to get to a maximum of 14% Dodge, equal to the new MDB of 14.


5. DPS is Terrible when using a Shield
You really, really need to take a step back here and start with fixing the Combat Style of Weapon & Shield fighting. I would suggest as a starting point:


- You discard the exisiting Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery feats
Create a new line of 3 feats, similar to TWF/THF/SWF that rolls up THF & Shield Mastery abilities:

- Weapon & Shield Fighting (Requires 15 Strength, 12 Dexterity, no BAB requirement)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

You strike glancing blows
Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st and 4th Animation, at 25% of your Mainhand damage
You receive a 10% bonus to Double Strike
You receive a stacking +10/+10 PRR/MRR bonus


- Improved Weapon & shield Fighting (Requires 17 Strength, 14 Dexterity, BAB 6)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st,2nd and 4th Animation, at 50% of your Mainhand damage
You receive a further 10% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +20%
You receive a further stacking +10 PRR/MRR bonus, for a total of +20


- Greater Weapon & shield Fighting (Requires 17 Strength, 14 Dexterity, BAB 11)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Animation, at 75% of your Mainhand damage
You receive a further 10% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +30%
You receive a further stacking +10 PRR/MRR bonus, for a total of +30


- Create a new Epic Destiny Feat for Perfect Weapon & Shield Fighting:
Perfect Weapon & Shield Fighting (Requires Greater Weapon & Shield Fighting feat)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

You receive a further 20% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +50%


Certain Epic abilities would need slightly adjusting but should remain compatible - Legendary Shield Mastery from Unyielding Sentinal, the Epic Moment from Fury of the Wild as examples.

6. New Prestiges
- Vanguard I am highly intrigued by. I look forward to seeing this!
- Shieldbearer also sounds similarly interesting, but more so the suggested options on Tactics.

[pesch1991]

1. Change to Physical Resist Rating Formula
- No issues with this.


2. Introduction of Magical Resist Rating
- This is really good, I like the idea of being able to 'absorb' magical damage as a person who invests in the appropiate feats, enhancements and equipment.

- I also approve that items providing PRR should provide the same level of MRR retroactively. While there's scope for seperate gear enhancements for PRR/MRR, I would like to see a combined enhancement continued.

3. Armor and Ratings
- I agree with the outline values of PRR/MRR per armour type.

- I think its a good move to remove BAB as part of the equation to simplify things. Most characters have a way to achieve BAB = Heroic Class level anyway.

- I also agree with the outline values of PRR/MRR per Shield type.

- I think a slight change in shield multiplier to support a change to Evasion Restrictions is warranted:


Buckler: 1.0x / no additional PRR/MRR
Light Shield: 1.0x / no additional PRR/MRR
Heavy Shield: 1.5x / +50% additional PRR/MRR
Tower Shield: 2.0x / +100% additional PRR/MRR


In addition, this differentiates Tower & Large Shields further, making a choice between two more meaningful.


4. Resist Rating Caps and Evasion
- I agree with the current stance on what armours negate the Evasion Feat.

- Again, I think a slight change to Shield restrictions should be undertaken:

Buckler: Evasion or Improved Evasion both allowed
Light Shield: Evasion or Improved Evasion both allowed
Heavy Shield: Evasion allowed, no Improved Evasion
Tower Shield: No Evasion or Improved Evasion

These changes make Light Armour/Heavy Shield Evasion tanks still viable but also rewards Heavy Armour/Tower Shield tanks with more viability with more overall PRR/MRR for there investment of Armor/Shield choice.

- I think you should more heavily restrict PRR/MRR Hard Caps on different Armor Types:

Robes or Outfit: 75 PRR/75 MRR
Light Armor: 150 PRR/150 PRR
Medium Armor: 250 PRR/250 MRR
Heavy Armor: No Cap


Light Armour/No Armour already benefits from potential Evasion use, and has Improved Evasion been considered in this equation? With a PRR/MRR of 100 and Improved Evasion, your typical Monk is going to Automatically avoid 70% of incoming magical damage, even with a Reflex save of 0 when playing in Epic Elite content.

So, I think it it would also be a good idea to allow this cap to be raised if wearing a Shield:

Buckler: +5 PRR/MRR
Light Shield: +10 PRR/MRR
Heavy Shield: +30 PRR/MRR
Tower Shield: +50 PRR/MRR


This helps encourage the use of shields of Defensive purposes, even on Light/No Armour toons.

- I also think that the original statement for minimum Dodge Caps should be re-introduced, with the proviso that special armours can exceed these Dodge Caps based on MDB values as well as allowing current Feats, Enhancements and Epic Destiny abilities to raise these Dodge Caps if the MDB of the Armour exceeds the Dodge Cap.

Let me explain a little further on this point: The original proposal stated that Heavy Armour would have a Dodge Cap of 5%, even if the armour only provided 3 MDB. Thats fine, and I have no problem with a Heavy Armour wearer receiving 5% Dodge through appropiate feats or enhancements. If the said armor wearer was to wear a Mobility Item (+2MDB), take Sacred Armour Mastery 3 from Sacred Defender and also twiste Lithe from Shadow Dancer then that should allow the Heavy Armour wearer to get to a maximum of 14% Dodge, equal to the new MDB of 14.


5. DPS is Terrible when using a Shield
You really, really need to take a step back here and start with fixing the Combat Style of Weapon & Shield fighting. I would suggest as a starting point:


- You discard the exisiting Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery feats
Create a new line of 3 feats, similar to TWF/THF/SWF that rolls up THF & Shield Mastery abilities:

- Weapon & Shield Fighting (Requires 15 Strength, 12 Dexterity, no BAB requirement)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

You strike glancing blows
Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st and 4th Animation, at 25% of your Mainhand damage
You receive a 10% bonus to Double Strike
You receive a stacking +10/+10 PRR/MRR bonus


- Improved Weapon & shield Fighting (Requires 17 Strength, 14 Dexterity, BAB 6)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st,2nd and 4th Animation, at 50% of your Mainhand damage
You receive a further 10% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +20%
You receive a further stacking +10 PRR/MRR bonus, for a total of +20


- Greater Weapon & shield Fighting (Requires 17 Strength, 14 Dexterity, BAB 11)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Animation, at 75% of your Mainhand damage
You receive a further 10% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +30%
You receive a further stacking +10 PRR/MRR bonus, for a total of +30


- Create a new Epic Destiny Feat for Perfect Weapon & Shield Fighting:
Perfect Weapon & Shield Fighting (Requires Greater Weapon & Shield Fighting feat)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

You receive a further 20% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +50%


Certain Epic abilities would need slightly adjusting but should remain compatible - Legendary Shield Mastery from Unyielding Sentinal, the Epic Moment from Fury of the Wild as examples.

6. New Prestiges
- Vanguard I am highly intrigued by. I look forward to seeing this!
- Shieldbearer also sounds similarly interesting, but more so the suggested options on Tactics.

he wont restrict prr but mrr nerfing robes is a bad idea because there are many who have over 75

[lyrecono]

flattening the prr curve is still good, rewarding heavier armor and shields with more prr is still good.
Rewarding tanks with active block bonus only when the turbine servers aren't lagging out? not such a good idea.
One lag spikes ends with a soul stone and an angry boss heading to the party, the tank gets booted from the party and blacklisted
Places that benefit from tanks are notoriously loaded with heavy lag, cutting out a large segment of tanks due to lag? no thank you.
Adding Tier 1 enhancements for this to the eldrich and warpriest trees? no, if you want better defenses, go paly/fighter, it's the price you payed for learning magic to begin with.

Having the auto block in a tier 5 for fighters and paladins (you know, the heavy plate & tower shield wielding core classes that the dev's are trying to help?) would ensure this isn't going to end up horribly misused like evasion splashes.

all they need to do for this is add 1 enhancement to 2 tree's, adapt the number of shield/energy block to an acceptable level and make sure light/magic missile, negative damage and an assortment of other spells are added to the block out list.

Far better then adding mrr that that seems so easily abused (see earlier calculation) and will most likely add other problems (remember ghostbanes? loot tables still aren't fixed correctly, remember terror? took away one of the few decent toys thf toons had around that level, remember all the other things that went haywire over the years? It might be more beneficial to keep certain things simple.

[Lalangamena]

very good changes, people who love heavy armors and shield will find their place in the game again.


p.s.
captain america has buckler, so his dodge not affected.
maybe hulk can dodge with tower shield...

[Severlin]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

[Krelar]

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)


You forgot: And with lag it is almost impossible to time correctly anyways.

[alancarp]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

I am not running for office, but I approve of this message. Oh, and your keyboard has a ~ thing stuck on it.

[Madja]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

Sev~


If the upcoming level 30 cap is meant to be the final level cap, then there shouldn't be that much more gear growth left. Once ML:30 raid gear has been made, that will hopefully be the pinncacle of power as gear goes. New items shouldn't be more powerful but instead offer different combinations of effects or offer entirely new effects.

The power creep will get worse if gear just keeps getting more and more powerful while the level stays the same.

[Gauthaag]

I must admit i simply hate the idea of mitigating magical damage by wearing heavier armor - at least all magical dmg.

We have innate magic resistent races - dwarves, drows - classes or prestiges with special training to beat magic - but sure main protection from magic damage, should be inch of steel. this is imho change made just for change itself and to calm down all those heavy armor tanks.

It makes pretty sense heavy shield or armor from pretty mundane material protects me from mind attack like mind thrust or necromantic spells....yeah i m sure those attack need to deal with armor first to have any effect. i would understand armor could protect against same type of dmg evasion does (ie mostly elemental type spells - tho the picture of knight being safe in steel armor feeling comfortable in ball lightning makes me laugh) , even against spell evasion doesnot protect like rays, but making it to give general protection sounds simply dumb to me.

also it bring another question: if this system enters live, will it bring a way to emulate it with magic? and another one: will mobs have similar protection as well?

[Zerkul]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~
At first glance all the changes you proposed looks cool. Sorry for this slight off-topic but I see you're in charge also for the barbarian class (looks like), any change for it planned in future?

[Grailhawk]

~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Have you ever though of using AC to grant a Dodge and PRR/MRR bonus. Quite frankly DDO has never been able to get AC and To-Hit to work the situation used to be either you were on the die or off, now in the hardest content mobs just always hit you unless you are one of the few who goes crazy with AC and gets "on the die", aka the same thing not really working. Even if you adjust monster To-Hit and get things balanced reasonably well i don't expect to see it last (AC was some what balanced when MotU hit but has since gone lopsided like it always does)

A system where AC grants a Dodge and PRR/MRR bonus would allow every one to see some value in AC.

Example
No Armor: Dodge += 0.1*AC, PRR += 0.0*AC
Light Armor: Dodge += 0.08*AC, PRR += 0.2*AC
Medium Armor: Dodge += 0.06*AC, PRR += 0.35*AC
Heavy Armor: Dodge += 0.04*AC, PRR += 0.5*AC

[Psiandron]

tho the picture of knight being safe in steel armor feeling comfortable in ball lightning makes me laugh


Really? I'm an electrican and while I never found it particularly troubling to work around energized gear back when they allowed you to do that more often, plasma balls scare the hell out of me. They respond to the vagaries of the magnetic fields around them and all possible grounding options, basically there is no way of knowing where the main thrust of the explosion is going to go. Plasma balls are easily capable of blowing your head off or your body in two and do not require extreme proximity to melt your eyeballs or even your face. A guy in plate mail which would likely provide a contiguous path for the energy around him might well be relatively safer than the guy standing there with metal rivets and zipper in his jeans.

[Psiandron]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

So far, this sounds good. Honestly though I think that you may need to just make some calls on the values and get some testing in. The odds are it's going to need a little tweaking.

[Yaga_Nub]

Granted: Now includes all magic, including hjeels as well. (Too oldschool DnD?) (Seriously though, could see the merit in that.)

Since you can voluntarily drop your SR (but it has to stay down for the whole round), why not?

[Yaga_Nub]

To think if they would have made spell resistance work on damage spells like it should be and not jacked up CR's way too high, we could have used real "magic" resistance that already exists in DND. Spell Resistance is already in game and doesn't work, why don't you fix that?

AC, DR, and SR already covered most of the recent changes from the past few years(PRR, MRR, Dodge). Now things are just overly complicated.

Preach it brother!

[Scraap]

Since you can voluntarily drop your SR (but it has to stay down for the whole round), why not?

Honestly, I could easily see em make that a stance if they wanted to replicate that type of thing. If they must tie armor into the notion: SR+((ArmorCategory+Enhancement)*ArmorMultiplier)+( (ShieldCategory+Enhancement)*ShieldMultiplier) Might keep it linear enough not to completely fall off the d20. Maybe a bump up to a D40, but past that the spikes would be so irregular as to have no variation in outcome from a practical perspective.

[Yaga_Nub]

Honestly, I could easily see em make that a stance if they wanted to replicate that type of thing. If they must tie armor into the notion: SR+((ArmorCategory+Enhancement)*ArmorMultiplier)+( (ShieldCategory+Enhancement)*ShieldMultiplier) Might keep it linear enough not to completely fall off the d20. Maybe a bump up to a D40, but past that the spikes would be so irregular as to have no variation in outcome from a practical perspective.

You don't need to do that but the idea of a stance would be cool. It's a flat d100 role. No multipliers, no nothing. If you have 30% then that's all you get and there's no way to boost it either. If an item gives 30% as well then there's no "item bonus" or "enhancement bonus" to SR. That way it stays a little reasonable.

[Thar]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

Please address how the cost of evasion is balanced against these changes as evasion requires another class that causes you to lose capstone, probably DPS, lower armor class, PRR (and now MRR) against the 20 fighter or pally that just picks up a new armor off the vendor and bam is at a very similar output of damage reduction. IS this fair? NOOOOOOOO.

and give evasion people their heavy shields back!!

[deathblaze]

On an evasion fighter in light armor (older style evasion tanks) using a shield currently grants AC and PRR plus bonuses from stances. By removing shields from being possible for evasion you kill this type of build (is currently on its last leg). The extra boost to AC and PRR are needed sometimes for tanking. How about instead of losing evasion they just don't get the magical resistance? They would keep evasion and get the ac and PRR making this type of build still viable.

More options > less options.

^THIS.
The current suggested changes are like saying "If you want to tank, you can't have Evasion. Also, your splashes/gear are for naught now."
I was already bummed when SWF was announced to not work with shields (which would have been a good boost to S&B DPS).
But now it looks like the light armor evasion shield tanks may have to finally kick the bucket.
(I also recently grinded out a Purple Dragon Shield and Shadow Dragon light armor, so I'm especially peeved!)
This problem is emerging because of the overly complicated suggested changes to handle magical damage.
Just leave shields alone and fix the problem which mainly lies with the armor system (or the lack of it).

On a side note, the Purple Dragon Shield should either change to be a large shield instead or have its model changed because it looks nothing like a tower shield!

[Hilltrot]

Make PRR linear instead of diminishing returns.

Do you mean linear like 1/(2^(PRR/150)) which may work, or the really bad idea of linear which will be broken the second it comes out.

[Hilltrot]

The current suggested changes are like saying "If you want to tank, you can't have Evasion. Also, your splashes/gear are for naught now."


There are tanks??

THERE ARE TANKS?!

I've never seen a tank in DDO since . . . since . . . since . . .

[nibel]

Do you mean linear like 1/(2^(PRR/150)) which may work, or the really bad idea of linear which will be broken the second it comes out.

The really bad idea of linear.

It is not that bad if you go into design thinking on a hard cap, and not planning on advance "how" reach that cap. Dodge is a good example about how it went wrong: You started with a hard cap of 25, and already had plenty of ways to max it out off the bat (three classes with 6% innate, a feat line that gives up to 9%, 10% on gear, plenty on enhancements and EDs, etc).

In my example, Heavy armor + Tower Shield would start out (from level 1) with 45 PRR, with a hard cap of 80. 45% damage reduction would distinguish heavy armor users from robe wearers right from the start. This is something that is missing with Dodge right now: You don't really get good "dodge" before you reach level 15+. In some cases, it only starts to shine at epics.

To counter the early access to a significant number, I would NOT make current Sheltering plus feats plus enhancements cover all those 35 missing PRR. It would open the way for intriguing class/enhancement combinations, and future gear design. Same thing would be true for MRR: Just because an orb-wielding heavy armor cleric would have a MRR cap of 90, this would not mean I would set everything so that you have an easy path to that cap.

But all of that is null anyway, since we got this reply:


~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

This mean that my dream of linear progression is dead.

Myself, I don't like logarithmic progression because eventually you have a nice stopping point on PRR where you sacrifices too much for a small benefit. On current game, this value is around 60 PRR, where you get easy 30% damage reduction. Without some epic/PDK past lifes, or some earth stance combinations, getting over this in a robe/light armor wearer is a bit hard. And the only reason to actively go over 60 is if you can reach and surpass it with low-hanging fruits.

[BOgre]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

Is that you anticipating, or were you specifically given that mandate? Because we were told level 30 was it. Finito. Cap. Are you telling us that Turbine plans to reneg on that and is already designing past 30?

[Schwarzie]

Is that you anticipating, or were you specifically given that mandate? Because we were told level 30 was it. Finito. Cap. Are you telling us that Turbine plans to reneg on that and is already designing past 30?

It just means that thre will never be an end to Powercreep. Some of it is simply necessary to keep the game interesting. Players expect some growth with each new Adventurepack.

[Uska]

Sounds like a good start

[SilkofDrasnia]

Late to the party I am and at a cursory glance I like the changes, they seem a step in the right direction. That said will need to put decent buckler and light shields in the game and mithril needs fixing.

Looking at this:


Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0


Why make heavy and tower both 2.0 it doesn't really compute to me. A tower shield is a huge arse "tower" like shield seems to me it should have a bit more than a simple "heavy" shield.

Maybe:
Buckler: 1.0
Light: 1.5
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.5

I mean look:

Hiding behind a heavy shield
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/Araxmas/122708_Warforged_Juggernaut_Path-new.jpg
Although hes blocking with a heavy shield he's still going to get some splash damage, smaller shield more splash damage which is also why there should be a difference tween bucklers and light shields as well.

Hiding behind a typical Tower shield
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130212181452/darksouls/images/thumb/8/85/Tower_sahield.jpg/344px-Tower_sahield.jpg
Should provide more PRR and MRR simply because of the increased cover.

I mean you make the distinction here:


Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

So you also need to make the distinction when it comes to Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

[bennyson]

When are these "possible" changes plus the other "possible" changes to Paladins coming in which update?

U23?

U24?

Or is it a secret?

Just curious.

[Silverleafeon]

Yes, the class needs love, but the honest truth of why the paladins don't do decent damage
is the combat feat lineup that they are offered:


Let us compare:



Two Weapon Fighting
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Dexterity 15





Description

Two Weapon Fighting reduces the to-hit penalty when using two weapons at the same time. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off-hand lessens by 6, so it becomes -4 (main hand) / -4 (off-hand) (instead of -6/-10 without this feat).

If the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties both decrease by another 2 points, down to -2/-2 (instead of -4/-8 without this feat). For wielders of non-light weapons, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is recommended to bring their attack penalty down to -2/-2.

After Update 5, an off-hand attack would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. The default chance to proc an off-hand attack is 20%.

Two Weapon Fighting increases the chance to proc an off-hand attack by 20%, bringing the total chance to 40%. Having more TWF feats increases the percentage chance of proccing an off-hand attack by 20% per feat, to a max of 80% with Greater Two Weapon Fighting. The first and fourth steps of the Tempest enhancements core abilities can increase the chance by 10% each, as can the Deft Strikes and Meditation of War (in Wind Stance) Shintao enhancements. However, there's no benefit of having more than a 100% off-hand strike chance.

This feat also works for unarmed Monks, and has the same effect but not for Druids in Wolf or Bear form.



Two Handed Fighting
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Strength 15+





Description

Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by 10% (from a base of 20% normal weapon damage). Also grants a 3% chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows.

Special: As of Update 5 This feat will also work with glancing blows caused by Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes when wielded as a single weapon or weapon and shield combination.

Related Feats:
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting




Shield Mastery
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency (General)





Description

You are skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain 3% doublestrike while using a shield.

Related Feats:
Improved Shield Mastery




Power Attack
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Usage: Active, Toggled Stance
Prerequisite: Strength 13+





Description

This feat exchanges part of your attack bonus for extra melee damage. It reduces your hit bonus by 5, or your Base Attack Bonus, whichever is lower. Then your successful attacks will have their damage increased by the same amount. Two-handed weapons get twice that damage bonus. (Unarmed strikes count as one-handed.) Typically, this means one-handed weapons get +5 and two-handed get +10 to damage.

This feat is a stance. It may be toggled on and left active indefinitely. When deactivated, there is a 10 second cooldown before it can be used again.



Combat Expertise
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Usage: Active, Toggled Stance
Prerequisite: Intelligence 13





Description

Defensive Combat Stance: While using Combat Expertise mode, you suffer -5 to your attack rolls but gain +10% feat bonus to Armor Class. Spells have three times their normal cooldown when this mode is active. Combat Expertise dispels and wards against all Rage effects.

(Note: The in-game description incorrectly implies that the to-hit and AC modifiers are limited by your Base Attack Bonus, and the AC bonus type is unspecified.)




Note

Spell like abilities are not subjected to the increased cooldown

This feat does not replace the basic Defensive Fighting stance granted automatically to all characters with a BAB of at least +1. However, it is generally better than Defensive Fighting, and only one stance can be active at a time.
A Fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A Monk may select this feat as one of his martial arts feats.


So simply put, Shield mastery is granting +3% bonus damage.
Two weapon fighting is granting +20% bonus damage.
Two handed fighting is granting +10% bonus damage.

Can one see the large difference building already?
Yes, I know they might miss and their is AC concerns, but...
Add power attacks bonus to damage which is significant, and...

Can you see the problem staring you in the face?





Now, look carefully at what is happening here,
or let us do some simple abstract math.


Assume we have an end game one handed weapon named "X248" that does 100 points of damage,
never critical hits, never add extra effects. Simple and to the point.


Let us give the Paladin an awesome end game shield "Y136" that also does 80 points of damage,
although we all know that is unlikely for a shield to hit as hard as a weapon does.

Let us give the Barbarian an awesome end game two handed weapon "Z369"
that does 120 points of damage, never critical hits, never adds extra effects.

Assume everyone's strength is 10 for simplicity.
Assume they have not farmed out epic destinies.
Assume they forgot to spend action points on enhancements.



Ranger Joe is dual wielding the X248 weapon and has taken,
power attack, and the entire (all three of the) two weapon fighting feats.

Ranger Joe gets 100+5 damage with his main hand.
Ranger Joe gets (100+5) * 80% with his off hand.
Ranger Joe gets 185.6 ish total damage.



Barbarian Bob is wielding a two handed version of Z369

Barbarian Bob gets 120+12 damage with his main hand.
Barbarian Bob gets (100+12) * 50% glancing blows which hits multiple foes.
Barbarian Bob gets 188 damage to main target and more to side targets.



Paladin Tim is wielding X248 in main hand and y135 in off hand.

Paladin Tim gets 100 damage with his main hand.
Paladin Tim gets 8% doublestrike with his main hand or (100) * 8%.
Paladin Tim gets a 20% chance to shield bash with his shield Y135 (80)* 20%
Paladin Tim gets 124 damage to main target.



Now with plain and simple math, can we see why Paladins are awful at damage.
Their three feat combat line is terrible.

[Silverleafeon]

I politely but confidently challenge the current thinking on sword and shield type feats
as being underpowered and resulting in class/role unbalance in the game.

[Silverleafeon]

I politely challenge the shield mastery feat line.


I would rewrite the whole feat line to look this:


Shield Mastery

Shield enables the character to retain the shield bonus to his armor class when using shield bash, and grants an automatic shield bash increased chance of 20% when attacking while stationary with a one-handed weapon and shield - if you meet certain other requirements. You'll actually see your character performing the bash when it happens, although it's a quick combination-animation that does not slow down your normal attack rate.

You are skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain 5% doublestrike while using a shield.


Improved Shield Mastery

Your chance to generate a shield bash from Shield Mastery increases by 20% for a total of 40%.
Your physical resistance is increased by an additional 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain an additional 5% doublestrike while using a shield for a total of 10%.


Greater Shield Mastery

Your chance to generate a shield bash from Shield Mastery increases by 20% for a total of 60%.
Your physical resistance is increased by an additional 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain an additional 5% doublestrike while using a shield for a total of 15%.

[Silverleafeon]

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

Sev~

Yes, I see your options coming, but the base feat and the overall design is flawed.
Combine them into a single line with improved and greater please.

Fixing things at the enhancement level is not the best way.
Plug the leak then mop up the water.
Otherwise you will be going everywhere to fix things at higher levels,
which leaves holes, flaws, and abuse problems.

Thanks for all you are doing, we do appreciate it.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Don't forget a shield bash cannot proc more tha 1 per second I believe

[Silverleafeon]

Don't forget a shield bash cannot proc more tha 1 per second I believe

Thanks!!

[Silverleafeon]

Make the shield line exclusive like the single weapon fighting line if you want.


Cannot take TWF or THF or SWF if you take Shield Master/Improved/Greater

[Thar]

With the prr and Mrr changes, there is no reason to nerf light armor evasion tanks more and limit us to light shields.... You already give up dps for using a shield...

It would be different if this was game day one with a multitude of options in game but everyone has bank and tr cache of heavy shields on their tanks. Do you really want to make people regrind all new shields for all levels for a tr... for what, so you can't deflect some spell damage? we would be probably avoiding it with evasion anyway.

Stop making changes to hurt existing builds that NEED help.

The PRR and MRR changes already are making newbie tanks that slap on some armor almost as good if not better than evasion. Why hurt these classes more? If you have access to heavy shield, make it work the way it has for years...

[Synthetic]

MRR and PRR really shouldn't be related. MRR should be based off of saves rather then armor as they represent your defense against magic. I think someone mentioned spell resistance which would make sense too. Maybe have MRR be SR + appropriate save + Ac bonus from armor. You can then figure out shield usage as a modifier for it against reflex saves - sr + ac bonus from armor + reflex * 1.5- 2.5 dependent on using a small medium or large shield. Make evasion not work with medium shields but evasion shield tanks still benefit from good saves. It also would be synergistic with improving pure paladins.

Just tying it to PRR doesn't add any build diversity tying it to saves and SR gives a boost to two things which are all or nothing pretty much and makes it worth while to work at increasing them.

*edit to add Ac bonus from armor to help improve heavy armors - call it a cold iron bonus

[Silverleafeon]

I might be a little over the top with the increased PPR there, but I hope you see the overall idea.

Also, what happens when a player takes improved shield bashing,
then takes two weapon fighting?

A shield is an off hand weapon right?

If that is so, then maybe some paths are already embedded into the game.


But still the double strike on Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery
is way too low, please increase and/or combine improved shield bashing with
Shield mastery and make improved shield mastery have a better auto
shield bash percentage.

I still say, let us fix the problem at its source,
even if you intend to add more at the enhancement levels.

That way the unknown and random builds are dealt with too.

[Thumbed_Servant]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/304817-This-New-Thing-It-is-Bad?highlight=new+thing

[LuKaSu]

This thread has been going on for a while, and I don't think I saw anything about Warforged. When the AC/PRR change came through, there was a bunch of people saying that the end of the Melee Warforged was over, because the Body Feats didn't seem to get as good of treatment as the actual armor in the game. It would be nice to make sure that WF Adamantine armor was given PRR and MRR as Heavy Armor, and the Mithral Body feat given Medium armor levels of protection (while still being considered light armor, like other Mithral things).

Maybe this update might also be a good time to renew the discussion of giving Warforged their body feat as a free selectable feat?

[Tilomere]

Evasion: You move evasively, gaining 3% dodge and maximum dodge rating, and on a successful reflex save for half damage you avoid all damage. However, your total MRR is reduced by 2/3.

[Delacroix21]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.


Sev~

Seriously Sev, why did you do this? Just because a few people who couldn't do some basic math and realize that these caps were actually a buff whined at you?


You intended this as a buff, it very much was a buff (with medium armor getting a HUGE boost) and yes, quite a few people couldn't seem to figure that out. Especially since you repeatedly stated that these numbers could be increased with ed or enhancements.



So you are going to punish the rest of us with half a brain (the minimum requirement to see the change as a BUFF not a nerf) by removing this dodge cap change? Please bring it back!





A tiny bit of math for my less brainy who couldn't figure this out:
No heavy armor in ddo has a base max dex bonus of 5, so 5% dodge for heavy armor was a buff
No medium armor in ddo has a max dex bonus of 10, no by a HUGE margin! 10% dodge was a buff
No light armor in ddo has a max dex bonus over 19, so 20% dodge was a 1% buff


Sev stated REPEATEDLY that these caps were increase able by things that increase max dex bonus. If you were able to READ his post about the caps, i am sure you could have read that!

[mezzorco]

Seriously Sev, why did you do this? Just because a few people who couldn't do some basic math and realize that these caps were actually a buff whined at you?


You intended this as a buff, it very much was a buff (with medium armor getting a HUGE boost) and yes, quite a few people couldn't seem to figure that out. Especially since you repeatedly stated that these numbers could be increased with ed or enhancements.



So you are going to punish the rest of us with half a brain (the minimum requirement to see the change as a BUFF not a nerf) by removing this dodge cap change? Please bring it back!





A tiny bit of math for my less brainy who couldn't figure this out:
No heavy armor in ddo has a base max dex bonus of 5, so 5% dodge for heavy armor was a buff
No medium armor in ddo has a max dex bonus of 10, no by a HUGE margin! 10% dodge was a buff
No light armor in ddo has a max dex bonus over 19, so 20% dodge was a 1% buff


Sev stated REPEATEDLY that these caps were increase able by things that increase max dex bonus. If you were able to READ his post about the caps, i am sure you could have read that!

I have to agree. Just bring it back, every player will (eventually) understand that this is a good thing.

"Because this is the buff DDO deserves, but not the one it understands right now." (cit. the dark severlin)

[nibel]

All this "evasion nerf" discussion could be avoided if they had a basic magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion) added to the game. This would stop the "two-level dip for evasion" discussion from even starting.

People don't multi into rogue/monk ONLY for evasion. Evasion is a nice benefit, but not the main reason why you splash. If evasion alone was that powerful, you would see more people running around in Primal Avatar.

[Qhualor]

(Edited based on player feedback.)

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.


Sev~

much rather the focus be on SD and DOS. those are the 2 tank trees and now we have Swashbuckler that is intended to be a dps shield user. adding 2 more trees that make tank builds more survivable in high level content and still put out high dps will just make players abandon SD and DOS. we really don't need 5 tank trees plus the many other monk/pally whatever splash builds already out there that are able to both tank and deal high damage. look at how we handle tank jobs and make adjustments with how you guys develop raids/quests. if there is going to be an actual tank, its going to be one with evasion or a self sufficient build that can kite.

the changes in armor, PRR, dodge and adding MRR, which I think personally is the wrong way to go for a fix, will certainly help SD and DOS or any other tank build, but adding magically enchanted gear/armor/shield is a better direction to go. just like in PnP, you can find some cool magical items that can shield you from a dragons fire/cold breath or absorb elements cast at you trapping it. whatever, but creativity in that respect would make things more fun, interesting and I would think easier than messing around with damage mitigation coding for the nteenth time and developing new trees for a "fix".

[thegreatneil]

People don't multi into rogue/monk ONLY for evasion. Evasion is a nice benefit, but not the main reason why you splash. If evasion alone was that powerful, you would see more people running around in Primal Avatar.

I TRed into my latest build with 2 rogue JUST for evasion, not the skills not the trapping, I am no even using the enhancements.

Its Simply for evasion.

[Delacroix21]

This thread has been going on for a while, and I don't think I saw anything about Warforged. When the AC/PRR change came through, there was a bunch of people saying that the end of the Melee Warforged was over, because the Body Feats didn't seem to get as good of treatment as the actual armor in the game. It would be nice to make sure that WF Adamantine armor was given PRR and MRR as Heavy Armor, and the Mithral Body feat given Medium armor levels of protection (while still being considered light armor, like other Mithral things).

Maybe this update might also be a good time to renew the discussion of giving Warforged their body feat as a free selectable feat?

This!


In fact the body feats should be slightly stronger then regular armor as they cost a feat. On live adamantine body gives less prr then ANY heavy armor, despite costing a feat. Also it is very hard for wf druids, as they can use either due to the oath. Allow these armors with the oath, wf composite plating allready has metal in it anyway!

[Silverleafeon]

Seriously Sev, why did you do this? Just because a few people who couldn't do some basic math and realize that these caps were actually a buff whined at you?


You intended this as a buff, it very much was a buff (with medium armor getting a HUGE boost) and yes, quite a few people couldn't seem to figure that out. Especially since you repeatedly stated that these numbers could be increased with ed or enhancements.



So you are going to punish the rest of us with half a brain (the minimum requirement to see the change as a BUFF not a nerf) by removing this dodge cap change? Please bring it back!





A tiny bit of math for my less brainy who couldn't figure this out:
No heavy armor in ddo has a base max dex bonus of 5, so 5% dodge for heavy armor was a buff
No medium armor in ddo has a max dex bonus of 10, no by a HUGE margin! 10% dodge was a buff
No light armor in ddo has a max dex bonus over 19, so 20% dodge was a 1% buff


Sev stated REPEATEDLY that these caps were increase able by things that increase max dex bonus. If you were able to READ his post about the caps, i am sure you could have read that!

+1

[Silverleafeon]

This thread has been going on for a while, and I don't think I saw anything about Warforged. When the AC/PRR change came through, there was a bunch of people saying that the end of the Melee Warforged was over, because the Body Feats didn't seem to get as good of treatment as the actual armor in the game. It would be nice to make sure that WF Adamantine armor was given PRR and MRR as Heavy Armor, and the Mithral Body feat given Medium armor levels of protection (while still being considered light armor, like other Mithral things).

Maybe this update might also be a good time to renew the discussion of giving Warforged their body feat as a free selectable feat?

I did bring up docents when this first came out,
and they are being considered.

Hopefully we will find good numbers when we see them.

[Silverleafeon]

I TRed into my latest build with 2 rogue JUST for evasion, not the skills not the trapping, I am no even using the enhancements.

Its Simply for evasion.

Aye, we need better capstones...

[Krelar]

Aye, we need better capstones...

This ^

Back when my paladin was still pure I didn't even bother taking either of the capstones. They are that bad.

The capstones should be good enough that a pure character will always want to take them and other characters will at least think twice about whether they want to stay pure or not.

[IronClan]

If only there was this collective of people, a GROUP of them FOCUSED on the changes who could give meaningful impact and thoughts on the subject. Alas we now live in a LAND where we can do naught but MOURN anymore.

This is what the PC does now, and none of us even blinked at that Dodge cap buff, IMO they may have dropped that change A) because they internally want to anyway or B) its minor and they look more responsive to feedback when they give into something now and again. Or maybe both who knows...

I think people need to be reminded some times that Sev and Varg etc. have other people around them throwing their own 2c in some of those people are their bosses, some of them are friends, some are the annoying guy in the next cubicle who mumbles a lot always brings up oddball nit picks and is unnaturally attached to his red stapler.

Challenging the unbuffing of dodge cap has been brought back up on the PC side FWIW. we'll see what happens.

[Delacroix21]

This is what the PC does now

Challenging the unbuffing of dodge cap has been brought back up on the PC side FWIW. we'll see what happens.

Fight the good fight! Bring this buffed dodge cap back! Sev just gave into the whiners who don't understand math.


Also make sure the PC takes WF body feats into discussion. They have been so bad for so long that none take them, and costing a feat is rough. Maybe let WF pick a plating at level 1 for free?

[lyrecono]

sev?

How about finding a way to add heavy and tower shields to single weapon fighting to help tanks to hold agro?
Maybe as an enhancement in the 2 defender tree's?
This would really help in the agro management department.

[Delacroix21]

This ^

Back when my paladin was still pure I didn't even bother taking either of the capstones. They are that bad.

The capstones should be good enough that a pure character will always want to take them and other characters will at least think twice about whether they want to stay pure or not.

Bump the stat bonuses to +4 and here is something wild: taking a capstone (have to be pure to do so) gives you an extra 10 enhancement points! Now we are talking.

[mezzorco]

taking a capstone (have to be pure to do so) gives you an extra 10 enhancement points! Now we are talking.

It could be a nice idea. Being pure means you can't exploit two classes with those points.

On the other hand, though, you can still take two capstones from two trees of your class, and this clearly isn't intended (plus this way you would get another 10 bonus points).

It's been asked many times to devs to add points with epic levels or capstones, and I think they're reluctant for a reason. This would unbalance current system.

[lyrecono]

Bump the stat bonuses to +4 and here is something wild: taking a capstone (have to be pure to do so) gives you an extra 10 enhancement points! Now we are talking.

you assume the fighter/paladin tree have enhancements worth taking over a 2 lv splash to begin with.
I highly doubt this would help pure fighters or paladins. What about pure casters? they're already OP compared to fighter/paladin. They have few reasons to multi class to begin with, adding 10 enhancement point would be very unbalanced.

[EllisDee37]

I've long felt that the best way to buff pure classes in the new enhancement system is to allow them (at level 20+ only, of course, when they have officially become "pure") to take as many tier 5s from all their trees as they can afford.

Plus give all the capstones (and even level ML18 cores) a serious boost, of course.

[Seikojin]

Make the shield line exclusive like the single weapon fighting line if you want.


Cannot take TWF or THF or SWF if you take Shield Master/Improved/Greater

I think SWF should be acquirable for S&B.

[Bridge_Dweller]

I think SWF should be acquirable for S&B.

or an actual S&B line of feats.

[Psiandron]

or an actual S&B line of feats.

In addition to the 4 shield feats currently available?

Because to me, that seems a bit much.

Now if you felt that those might be amended somewhat, I wouldn't mind hearing that.

[Grailhawk]

In addition to the 4 shield feats currently available?

Because to me, that seems a bit much.

Now if you felt that those might be amended somewhat, I wouldn't mind hearing that.

Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, and Improved Shield Bash whats the 4th?

[Psiandron]

Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, and Improved Shield Bash whats the 4th?

Shield Deflection (http://ddowiki.com/page/Shield_Deflection)

[lyrecono]

In addition to the 4 shield feats currently available?

Because to me, that seems a bit much.

Now if you felt that those might be amended somewhat, I wouldn't mind hearing that.

on a tank these days i rather have the swf feats over the shield ones, tanks can use all the help they can get in terms of dps
Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery gave diminishing returns once your prr hit certain levels, shield bash is somewhat weak, shield deflection doesn't work well enough for everyone due to lag and can be taken with epic destinies and epic past lives if needed.

[Psiandron]

on a tank these days i rather have the swf feats over the shield ones, tanks can use all the help they can get in terms of dps
Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery gave diminishing returns once your prr hit certain levels, shield bash is somewhat weak, shield deflection doesn't work well enough for everyone due to lag and can be taken with epic destinies and epic past lives if needed.

I understand that. I wasn't the one who proposed a new line of S&B feats.
My thought was that if anything is done in this direction, it would probably be better to modify existing feats to make them useful, rather than adding more feats to the game. You know, less clutter and all that.

[Thar]

So Dev's,

is it fair to give up 2 levels of another class, AC for wearing light armor, prr for wearing light armor, slotting reflex for maxing saving throws due to insane dc's and now heavy shields reduce the above even more?

what does the heavy armor tank give up. nothing for the same protect with the proposed mrr change.

don't change heavy shields not to work with evastion.... most heavy armot tanks would use tower shields anyway. Don't mess with 7 yrs of ddo coding.

[lyrecono]

I understand that. I wasn't the one who proposed a new line of S&B feats.
My thought was that if anything is done in this direction, it would probably be better to modify existing feats to make them useful, rather than adding more feats to the game. You know, less clutter and all that.

I think i quoted the wrong person (that's what you get for posting 04:00-ish at night...)
But i think you're right about the feats, i highly doubt that they'll listen, the last couple of years, i've seen the dev's trying to pigeon hole the classes into certain roles.
The idea of having a "defensive Tank" do a few points of damage more with those swf feats must horrify them.... XD


So Dev's,

is it fair to give up 2 levels of another class, AC for wearing light armor, prr for wearing light armor, slotting reflex for maxing saving throws due to insane dc's and now heavy shields reduce the above even more?

what does the heavy armor tank give up. nothing for the same protect with the proposed mrr change.

don't change heavy shields not to work with evastion.... most heavy armot tanks would use tower shields anyway. Don't mess with 7 yrs of ddo coding.

That's exactly the point of these changes, a pure paladin has no dps (vs a sorc), no defence vs aoe spells(vs a pal18/monk2), has no defence in EE melee since the dev's broke the entire thing. Even with the changes in effect, "tanks" still have to struggle with armor penalty:
assuming a full plate with tower shield, thats a -16 to:
Balance, due to the close combat nature, tanks are always at the risk of being tripped, lag issues prevent proper blocking of it.
Hide&move silently: how many runs are made invissed to avoid as many EE mobs as possible? (due to their nature of having to much hp)
Jump, essential to melee's for their jump&clicky/scroll usage and getting out of thight spots
Tumble, essential to avoid boredom.

Last but not least: a -32 to swim!
Furthermore the AC that's supposed to come with it still doesn't work in EE,
You're still not getting in high level parties because you're not contributing according to the elitists, no dps to speak of. even with these changes, you're nothing more then a speedbump towards the ranged dps, assuming you can hold a mob down after he presses manyshot or 10k stars.
I'm sorry to say but i think a toon with full plate& tower shield looses more then one might realize.

[MangLord]

I feel like this conversation could be a lot simpler. Given the track record, I know it's not the Turbine way to simplify, but it would really help new players get a handle on the system, and for veterans to get a handle on big, drastic changes in a core system relatively quickly. Rather than have all these different systems of damage mitigation, misses, % differentials and such, wouldn't it be easier to just tie an AC number to given amount of overall damage mitigation?

As it is now, we have three separate systems all working in tandem. The other day, I tried to explain to a new guildie (she's been playing for a year, but new to my guild) how AC, PRR and evasive defense all worked together. The easiest system to explain was that a 20% blur, 20% dodge (rounded to simplify the explanation) and 10% ghostly effects all worked together, and allowed her character to outright avoid X amount of incoming damage based on a percentage. Boosting AC was much harder to justify, given that epic enemies rarely miss, and damage was much better absorbed through temporary HP proc items and blanket miss chances. When she asked what the point of armor was, I had no good answer. I feel like the entire system needs to change for me to have a rationale for wearing armor.

I honestly don't know what my 70AC is worth. I have a % miss chance based "at level", 20ish %, but basically every enemy I face is above my level. Given how often I'm hit with a 20% blurry, 10% incorporeal and 23% dodge, my AC doesn't account for much. I never paid attention because it was unreliable after elite Harbor quests.

PRR is a monolithic system that gets even harder to explain, but I summed it up as a system that if you are hit after your blanket miss chance, it absorbs a portion of incoming damage, unless its a spell. She's a smart girl, but she said it felt like a college math class she had to sit through.

Given how tedious the system is, couldn't we just do away with PRR and MRR and make a blanket effect that negates X amt of damage, straddling the line between outright miss chances and PRR? Rather than adding in another factor of MRR, could we not make different types of armor absorb a certain level of damage outright?

Another option would be to scale back enemy to-hit so that AC becomes useful in the current state. It should be pretty reliable even if a player chooses to deviate from full defense on their build. It shouldn't be all or nothing. DDO is about customization, its what separates this MMO from all others. A decent AC should count for something, instead of being basically worthless. There should be some significant benefit for a fighter kensei to THF with a great-weapon and still gain a passive, meaningful benefit from heavy armor without blocking. Existing PRR is ok, but obviously not enough to ditch over sleepwear and dodge bonuses in the current state of the game. Passive PRR alone is not enough, or should be tripled.

Couldn't AC just provide a blanket bonus to damage ignorance similar to existing dodge/blur/ghostly bonuses and PRR? A suit of full plate armor should count for much more than it does. At least enough to be a viable option based on play preference? It would still reward a player choosing to wear armor while not penalizing players that chose to rely on reflexes and a lightly armored style. It seems intuitive that a warrior decked out in full armor should have a lot of incoming strikes just glance away and be ignored.

As a basic example, say you're wearing a suit of celestial full plate as a level 26 Dwarf Greataxe Kensei. Armor might outright block 50% of all incoming damage as a general armor bonus. (Medium armor might be 30% and light might be 15%) If I were a Stalwart Defender, my shield might add another 10% passive shield bonus, boosted to an additional 25% while actively blocking. If I were playing EE Gianthold, I could run into a room, block, and my defense would mitigate a single hit from 200pts down to 50pt per hit. That is something I could deal with, but would still become an emergency if the cleric wasn't on the ball with 5-6 enemies beating on me at once with 1200hp to break down.

Clearly DDO has drawn away from the core PnP rules, especially in epic difficulties, so I feel like now is the time to either scale back towards PnP, or fully embrace DDO as a similar but separate MMO system. Everything has gotten so esoteric that I'm getting embarrassed talking about my game to other hardcore gamer friends who console or play WoW. They think I'm nuts. That's bad.

New players just don't have the time to acquire a PhD in DDO in order to learn all the various systems, and lose interest.

K.I.S.S.

[Faltout]

Noone has to get a PhD in the game they play for the first time. You always start by understanding a small basic part of the game and then build up your knowledge piece by piece as you play. That's why new players don't have the best characters.
Now while for some other games complexity may be limited, the thing that makes D&D and eventually DDO one of the most successful games is the complexity, customization and balance of it.

[Ausdoerrt]

I think i quoted the wrong person (that's what you get for posting 04:00-ish at night...)
But i think you're right about the feats, i highly doubt that they'll listen, the last couple of years, i've seen the dev's trying to pigeon hole the classes into certain roles.
The idea of having a "defensive Tank" do a few points of damage more with those swf feats must horrify them.... XD


We should keep pressing though, they'll come around eventually. Remember how they used to be afraid of ranged damage, now look at the game today :)

[lyrecono]

yes, but where did that leave us?
Mob hp/dps so high (to facilitate "tanks") backfiring so that everyone had to go ranged....
hmmmm, i guess i'm still a tad bit sceptic and not willing to wait another 4 years, like they did with ranged XD

[Ausdoerrt]

In addition to the 4 shield feats currently available?

Because to me, that seems a bit much.

Now if you felt that those might be amended somewhat, I wouldn't mind hearing that.

I think what he meant was an actual feat LINE, rather than 4 vaguely related feats not necessarily connecting into a single combat style.

Shield mastery feats are a good start, but IMO should be expanded to a full 3+1 epic feats and improved to match other fighting styles. Improved Bashing should be removed and its benefits added to the mastery line (scaled). Shield Deflection could stay a single feat or disappear, for all I care.

[Kalevor]

I think i quoted the wrong person (that's what you get for posting 04:00-ish at night...)
But i think you're right about the feats, i highly doubt that they'll listen, the last couple of years, i've seen the dev's trying to pigeon hole the classes into certain roles.
The idea of having a "defensive Tank" do a few points of damage more with those swf feats must horrify them.... XD


That's exactly the point of these changes, a pure paladin has no dps (vs a sorc), no defence vs aoe spells(vs a pal18/monk2), has no defence in EE melee since the dev's broke the entire thing. Even with the changes in effect, "tanks" still have to struggle with armor penalty:
assuming a full plate with tower shield, thats a -16 to:
Balance, due to the close combat nature, tanks are always at the risk of being tripped, lag issues prevent proper blocking of it.
Hide&move silently: how many runs are made invissed to avoid as many EE mobs as possible? (due to their nature of having to much hp)
Jump, essential to melee's for their jump&clicky/scroll usage and getting out of thight spots
Tumble, essential to avoid boredom.

Last but not least: a -32 to swim!
Furthermore the AC that's supposed to come with it still doesn't work in EE,
You're still not getting in high level parties because you're not contributing according to the elitists, no dps to speak of. even with these changes, you're nothing more then a speedbump towards the ranged dps, assuming you can hold a mob down after he presses manyshot or 10k stars.
I'm sorry to say but i think a toon with full plate& tower shield looses more then one might realize.

agreed, people keep saying that wear heavy armor is cost free... nonsense

[Psiandron]

I think what he meant was an actual feat LINE, rather than 4 vaguely related feats not necessarily connecting into a single combat style.

Shield mastery feats are a good start, but IMO should be expanded to a full 3+1 epic feats and improved to match other fighting styles. Improved Bashing should be removed and its benefits added to the mastery line (scaled). Shield Deflection could stay a single feat or disappear, for all I care.

I think that's what he meant too, but again, I was asking him (or someone else should they want to do so) to provide something more concrete. If I missed someone's post where they listed such an idea I apologize (given the thread, the number of text walls, and fact that I am not a big shield user myself, it's quite likely that I did), but I haven't seen anyway say anything more than you just did.

I'm certainly not adverse to redoing the shield feats to make them more useful. It appears to be an especially good idea in that so many people seem interested in the S&B thing. That said, I do not want Turbine to just plop 3 more shield feats into the game. If a redux of the existing ones is required then fine, but some more substantial proposals might be in order.

Ofc, it would probably be best if we at least had some idea of where armor is going before deciding shields should be such and such. Any possibility of Sev posting this week I wonder?

[Psiandron]

K.I.S.S.

Yeah, I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. as well and i often find fault with Turbine for not following that maxim, I will say that it isn't so straight forward.

D&D was developed using the D20. Gygax and the other leading lights of D&D limited the PCs to 18th level because at that point the d20 was overwhelmed and the game system completely fell apart. Really, once you got to 12th level things started to go south for the d20 system, but as very few campaigns got that far and when they did, they were often more about the RP than about hack and slash.

This game equates to the biggest Monte Hall campaign ever. Power creep has been massive and the player-base has come to feel entitled to the power they've attained. The devs have felt it necessary to respond by grossly inflating everything about, not just the bosses, but even the mobs. This wasn't very surprising at first; however, after some vast improvements to the mob AI I had hoped that Turbine would back off it's reliance on inflated numbers for mobs. Such was not the case. In the grand tradition of power creep, that has ofc led to the players demanding yet more power.

Further muddying the waters is the fact that many players, myself included, want to see the game stay as close to the source as possible (source being rather arbitrary, as there are proponents of all the TSR and WotC variants to the game represented as well as some who prefer the direction taken by companies outside the main game). Edit: In addition, it should be remembered that there are unknown although reported contractual obligations Turbine has to Atari/Hasbro/WotC.



The result is of the above is that in order to get past the first point and then to also try to deal with the second, Turbine has chosen to add layers of complexity to the game. It doesn't seem likely at this point that they are going to back off this view.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't continue to argue for K.I.S.S., just be prepared for disappointment. ;P

[BYOHordie]

The original plan proposed by the OP has a lot of promise. The only part I did not get was Heavy shields and med armor getting the same Lack of PRR cap as tower shield and heavy armor.
Then you let a few cry baby types buffalo you into start changing things.
There is absolutely no plausible reason cloth wearers should be able to achieve the same PRR as those with full plate. MRR mabey I could see that being the same as it is based off of the magic in the item.
The one exception to all this is past life bonus should stack on top of the 100 max PRR to give a total of 138 PRR max. Otherwise why did you run all those past lives.

[Ausdoerrt]

I think that's what he meant too, but again, I was asking him (or someone else should they want to do so) to provide something more concrete. If I missed someone's post where they listed such an idea I apologize (given the thread, the number of text walls, and fact that I am not a big shield user myself, it's quite likely that I did), but I haven't seen anyway say anything more than you just did.

I'm certainly not adverse to redoing the shield feats to make them more useful. It appears to be an especially good idea in that so many people seem interested in the S&B thing. That said, I do not want Turbine to just plop 3 more shield feats into the game. If a redux of the existing ones is required then fine, but some more substantial proposals might be in order.

Ofc, it would probably be best if we at least had some idea of where armor is going before deciding shields should be such and such. Any possibility of Sev posting this week I wonder?

There was a post early on suggesting specific numbers for such feats. I don't know the game well enough to offer my own, unfortunately.

[Kalevor]

Any possibility of Sev posting this week I wonder?

Yes please, we need some answers.

[Bardgellor]

I have not read all 19 pages of this thread, so I apologize if I am repeating something already said:

Re: no more heavy shields with evasion. So, shields get buffed so they help that lumbering 8 dex tank wearing heavy armor who only saves on a 20 to automatically avoid a significant percentage (could exceed 75%) of that incoming dragon breath but a 70 dex rogue is so weighed down by it that he cannot evade and takes full (non-evasion) damage (likely half due to a high reflex save). You are greatly increasing the value of the shield but penalizing the character who should be best able to timely position himself behind the new supper shield? Really? REALLY?

Re: trivializing EE content. Please don't inflate the value of armor/shield so anyone wearing it can wade into EE melee and survive. EE is the only challenge left in this game. There is EC, EN and EH to use as training grounds. Keep EE a challenge that has to be geared for and built around.

[lyrecono]

for one that has read all 19 pages, and responded a few times too:
The purpose of this entire suggestion (see starter post by the op), was to help out heavy armor&heavy/tower shield wearing toons, since their thick armor and shield means nothing in terms of armor class, especially in EE, the dev's proposed to have m get more prr and add mrr to it as well.
This way the class can do what they think they designed them for in the first place, soak up damage.

As a correction: no self respecting tank has a dex of 8
A rogue is not proficient with a heavy shield, no self respecting or game savvy rogue would bother wielding one, it bothers him with skills, dps, etc
The suggestion is not made for rogues, just for the plate mail/shield characters, though rogues do benefit, although in a small way, from the creation of mrr, just like all the other classes.
Please reread the openings post and the rest of the thread for their justifications. This is not a nerf, everybody gets more protection out of it

As a frequent EE player: even with these changes a "tank" type of toon would have a hard time in EE, the low dps and lack of agro management gets him replaced by the first monchker that walks by.
The suggested changes are a nice step in the right direction, yet still so far from the goal

[B0ltdrag0n]

Yeah, I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. as well and i often find fault with Turbine for not following that maxim, I will say that it isn't so straight forward.[INDENT]
D&D was developed using the D20. Gygax and the other leading lights of D&D limited the PCs to 18th level because at that point the d20 was overwhelmed and the game system completely fell apart. Really, once you got to 12th level things started to go south for the d20 system, but as very few campaigns got that far and when they did, they were often more about the RP

This paragraph alone has so many errors in both history and fact that it is painful to read.

[Captain_Wizbang]

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.


Sev~

Moved to this thread
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444217-Vanguard-Ideas?p=5363393#post5363393

[Severlin]

So, lets add things up shall we?
a lv 20 bladeforged kensai fighter/epic 8 in LD
45 prr from armor(body feat&docent)
30 from bracers
36 from past lives (27 martial, 9 pdk iconic), again assuming these will give mrr too
no shield due to 1 handed fighting style (using a Thunderholm kopesh&orb)
-------=111 prr. (taking 57% melee damage) and an assumed 111 mrr, (57% magical damage taken), diminished dodge.

vs the centered bladeforged monk6/pally2/fighter 12/epic 8 in LD, owning epic reflexes
36 from pastlives
12 from earth stance
15 from standing with stone
30 from bracers
-------=93 prr (taking 61% melee damage) and no reflex related damage taken, note: max dodge bonus possible

vs full plate wearing pally/fighter using a tower shield
200 prr (number taken from this tread) comes to roughly 43%

So this change will give the full plate&tower shield wearing fighter a 18% melee dr but looses 57% ref based damage mitigation over a popular melee build.
I'm not convinced, yet...
More feats, ED's etc will dilute the numbers further but at least it's a start

will it really close the gap?
Does the new prr on armor stack with the older system? (prr=6+bab for plate mail)
Will Warforged body feats be brought in line with normal armors? (they do cost a feat, it is expected they work as intended)
Will those melee classes gain enhancements to make the 1 handed feat line work with the bigger shields? it seems only logical since tanks really need some dps to hold said agro (no use building defense if the ranged toons take agro away in on shot).


Some corrections.

~ If the Bladeforged gets 45 PRR (s)he is using Admantite plating which counts as heavy armor and couldn't get Evasion. Mithral plating provides 15 PRR and can use Evasion.

~ I think you missed the fact that large or tower shields will double MRR versus damaging attacks that allow a Reflex save. So that 200 MRR will turn to 400 against anything that Evasion works against. That's ~73% mitigation, plus the heavy armor character can still possibly make a saving throw for half damage. While the absolute mitigation might not be as good the damage input will be much less spikey making these characters easier to heal in a frenetic battle, especially at the highest levels where two failed reflex saving throws might mean death.

~ The fact that characters designed as tanks can't hold agro is on our list. While we don't want to turn DDO into a strict trinity game (we like that you don't have to necessarily play towards that paradigm) we also don't want tanks to be useless either.

~ One handed fighting feats will not work with shields. We prefer a design that keeps the various fighting styles pure. On the other hand, if the DPS tree makes shield bashes hit as hard as we are imagining you will want the increased chance to shield bash from the shield feats. We just have to make sure that the increased shield bashes don't work while blocking because, let's face it a strategy where all you do is hold block and click for big shield bashes would really not be fun.

Sev~

[Severlin]

So Dev's,

is it fair to give up 2 levels of another class, AC for wearing light armor, prr for wearing light armor, slotting reflex for maxing saving throws due to insane dc's and now heavy shields reduce the above even more?

what does the heavy armor tank give up. nothing for the same protect with the proposed mrr change.

don't change heavy shields not to work with evastion.... most heavy armot tanks would use tower shields anyway. Don't mess with 7 yrs of ddo coding.

The heavy armor tank gives Evasion and Improved Evasion. That itself is a big disadvantage. Heavy armored characters give up a lot of Dodge. Maybe 27% mitigation. They give up Jump, which I use constantly when I fight with characters with lighter armors. They give up lots of Swim which can really be annoying in the watery dungeons.

In this system to really get the most out of the heavier armors you will also want to gear towards PRR and MRR. Those gears choices will mean giving up on other stats.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Given how tedious the system is, couldn't we just do away with PRR and MRR and make a blanket effect that negates X amt of damage, straddling the line between outright miss chances and PRR? Rather than adding in another factor of MRR, could we not make different types of armor absorb a certain level of damage outright?

Another option would be to scale back enemy to-hit so that AC becomes useful in the current state. It should be pretty reliable even if a player chooses to deviate from full defense on their build. It shouldn't be all or nothing. DDO is about customization, its what separates this MMO from all others. A decent AC should count for something, instead of being basically worthless. There should be some significant benefit for a fighter kensei to THF with a great-weapon and still gain a passive, meaningful benefit from heavy armor without blocking. Existing PRR is ok, but obviously not enough to ditch over sleepwear and dodge bonuses in the current state of the game. Passive PRR alone is not enough, or should be tripled.

Couldn't AC just provide a blanket bonus to damage ignorance similar to existing dodge/blur/ghostly bonuses and PRR? A suit of full plate armor should count for much more than it does. At least enough to be a viable option based on play preference? It would still reward a player choosing to wear armor while not penalizing players that chose to rely on reflexes and a lightly armored style. It seems intuitive that a warrior decked out in full armor should have a lot of incoming strikes just glance away and be ignored.


~ PRR is already in the game. It is an existing system that we are building on. Armor already gives PRR. The current formula is 6 + BAB for Heavy, 4 + (BAB / 1.5) for medium, and 2 + (BAB / 2.0) for light. This is in place on live. We are building on this existing system. Yes we are adding MRR, but it's just the magic equivalent.

~ You don't need to know the math to master this system. More PRR and MRR is always good, and the first point of PRR provides just as much mitigation (as a percent) as the 200th point. All your girlfriend really needs to know if playing a character in medium or heavy armor is that PRR and MRR are good. She doesn't have to worry about hitting caps that make further points useless. She doesn't have to worry about stacking a specific saving throw to make her mitigation work. She just needs to know, basically, that more PRR is better.

~ None of the other systems you talk about work for what we want. A hard capped system won't scale at all with new gear which means we don't have anywhere to grow the game. The armor class system fixing you propose just re-introduces a binary (thus spikey) mitigation. Plus, if we ever fixed AC and players started missing creatures a lot I think the game would be much less fun.

~ If someone really wants to tank they will be looking for a smoother, more predictable damage mitigation.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Some people asked about Warforged and Bladeforged.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Mithral Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Light Armor. They can have Evasion and Improved Evasion. They gain 15 PRR and MRR like the light armors will provide.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Admantite Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Heavy Armor. They cannot use Evasion or Improved Evasion. They gain 45 PRR and MRR.

Sev~

[Krelar]

Some people asked about Warforged and Bladeforged.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Mithral Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Light Armor. They can have Evasion and Improved Evasion. They gain 15 PRR and MRR like the light armors will provide.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Admantite Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Heavy Armor. They cannot use Evasion or Improved Evasion. They gain 45 PRR and MRR.

Sev~

So just to be clear you are changing things? Currently they do not get the same PRR as armor.

Also are you going to do anything about the dodge caps on body feats? Currently the dodge cap on Mithril body is substantially lower than the cap on most light armors.

[Firewall]

If you introduce MRR to the game could you change Spell Resistance to give an amount of MRR instead? The way Spell Resistance currently works is very weak and even less valuable in EE quests. I think changing it to give some MRR would be a good change to make it more useful again.

[Severlin]

So just to be clear you are changing things? Currently they do not get the same PRR as armor.

Also are you going to do anything about the dodge caps on body feats? Currently the dodge cap on Mithril body is substantially lower than the cap on most light armors.

Yes they will get more PRR than they do now.

I will look into why the Dodge cap might be lower for Mithral Body. I don't know off hand why this was done or what it is balanced against.

Sev~

[EllisDee37]

If you introduce MRR to the game could you change Spell Resistance to give an amount of MRR instead? The way Spell Resistance currently works is very weak and even less valuable in EE quests. I think changing it to give some MRR would be a good change to make it more useful again.My understanding is that MRR and spell resistance apply to completely different spells. For example, MRR won't help against hold person, and spell resistance won't help against fireballs.

[Delacroix21]

Yes they will get more PRR than they do now.

I will look into why the Dodge cap might be lower for Mithral Body. I don't know off hand why this was done or what it is balanced against.

Sev~

I can tell you why: because this was added when "Mithral" was the only way to increase the dodge cap or armors. So as the game evolved and armor like thunder forged got a max dex bonus of 19, WF Mithral armor was still stuck at 5. Same goes for heavy armor with adamantine armor max dex being stuck at 1.


PLEASE bring back your proposed max dex/dodge to each armor type. You removed the feature because you were annoyed at people whining who couldn't see this for the buff it was. This would have been a blanket fix for WF as well, and a needed buff for medium armor users who currently get shafted by such an inferior armor type.

[-Zephyr-]

My understanding is that MRR and spell resistance apply to completely different spells. For example, MRR won't help against hold person, and spell resistance won't help against fireballs.

Except that given monster CRs, spell resistance doesn't help against anything currently.

[Munkenmo]

Yes they will get more PRR than they do now.

I will look into why the Dodge cap might be lower for Mithral Body. I don't know off hand why this was done or what it is balanced against.

Sev~

With all these changes, will there be any consideration to give warforged / bladeforged a bonus feat slot at creation to chose their body type?

You made a comment earlier regarding ac, about players missing not being fun. Back in 2009 it was common for a party memeber to carry destructiin weapons in epics to help reduce monster ac. I wish you guys would look into monster damage mitigation as a means of giving them proxy hp instead of the inflated values we have now. Different weapons for different situations is a strong point of this game, as are debuffs, you should be rewarding prepared players not just forcing us towards max dps.

[Thar]

Yes they will get more PRR than they do now.

I will look into why the Dodge cap might be lower for Mithral Body. I don't know off hand why this was done or what it is balanced against.

Sev~

Why no comment on the evasion cost vs the free mrr change that anyone can use? What's fair about that?

What's fair about evasion losing all heavy shields for tr's, etc for the 1 or 2 good named shields that will go in a new update like the bucklers... What's fair about having to drop MORE AC/PRR for heavy shields making evasion tanks even less capable. ALL TANKS need more help not nerfs. Cancel the stupid shield changes or let us keep heavy shields. Heavy armor tanks will all use tower shields anyway soooooo what's the point.

Any retroactive change like that (bucklers / light shields) needs to have items added to all chains from water works up like was done for artificers.

[Severlin]

Why no comment on the evasion cost vs the free mrr change that anyone can use? What's fair about that?

What's fair about evasion losing all heavy shields for tr's, etc for the 1 or 2 good named shields that will go in a new update like the bucklers... What's fair about having to drop MORE AC/PRR for heavy shields making evasion tanks even less capable. ALL TANKS need more help not nerfs. Cancel the stupid shield changes or let us keep heavy shields. Heavy armor tanks will all use tower shields anyway soooooo what's the point.

Any retroactive change like that (bucklers / light shields) needs to have items added to all chains from water works up like was done for artificers.

But... I specifically responded to your post?

/points up a few posts

As for Evasion + shield tanks, the design is that they will use light shields. It actually gives light shields a use. Yes, I realize that there are a lack of good light shields at the moment, precisely because in the past they had no use. We will be looking to add good light shields to the mix. I know we have light shields and bucklers planned for the content released with these changes.

Sev~

[Scraap]

But... I specifically responded to your post?

/points up a few posts

As for Evasion + shield tanks, the design is that they will use light shields. It actually gives light shields a use. Yes, I realize that there are a lack of good light shields at the moment, precisely because in the past they had no use. We will be looking to add good light shields to the mix. I know we have light shields and bucklers planned for the content released with these changes.

Sev~

While future plans to address concerns are highly appreciated, the obsolescence of raid gear is not.

Still, for a comparison so you can show us the bright side, how many of the effects of:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Large_shields are planed to be replicated in
http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Small_shields

Note that's not even getting into the loss of things like http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Levik%27s_Defender (Figure that one's a lost argument, even if you treat mithril as one size category lower, since in that case it'd need to be 2.)

[Delacroix21]

But... I specifically responded to your post?

/points up a few posts

As for Evasion + shield tanks, the design is that they will use light shields. It actually gives light shields a use. Yes, I realize that there are a lack of good light shields at the moment, precisely because in the past they had no use. We will be looking to add good light shields to the mix. I know we have light shields and bucklers planned for the content released with these changes.

Sev~

Sev, can we talk about adding greensteel and thunder forged shields? They would certainly help.


Oh, and bring back the dodge cap change. It was the best idea I saw presented and it was scrapped in a matter of hours. I thought: finally, a purpose to medium armor and a much needed buff for barbs.

[EllisDee37]

We will be looking to add good light shields to the mix. I know we have light shields and bucklers planned for the content released with these changes.Unfortunately you're going to get the short end of the stick on this one.

The playerbase has been told time and again about how things will be added, only to have those plans abandoned and nothing gets added for years. Crafting levels to 200! Re-introducing the MotU-style lootgen gear that got removed from the game during the great ghost-baning! (Note that we were told that the lootgen would be returned in two stages, first weapons, then accessories. We got the weapons. Accessories? Nope. We will never get our much-needed accessories back.)

Based on the track record of the past few years, whichever dev is in charge of introducing all the good light shields will get laid off before he can push them to live. So we will never get the actual shields, but will get the game mechanic that relies on them. Yet another half-finished system.

None of this is your fault, but unfortunately it's hard to read about a new game mechanic that will rely on introducing a bunch of new light shields without being overcome by cynicism that those light shields will never materialize and we'll be stuck with yet another half-finished system.

[Thar]

The heavy armor tank gives Evasion and Improved Evasion. That itself is a big disadvantage. Heavy armored characters give up a lot of Dodge. Maybe 27% mitigation. They give up Jump, which I use constantly when I fight with characters with lighter armors. They give up lots of Swim which can really be annoying in the watery dungeons.

In this system to really get the most out of the heavier armors you will also want to gear towards PRR and MRR. Those gears choices will mean giving up on other stats.

Sev~
Sorry i missed this post, Dev's have been active with changes :) It's nice to see your listening to feedback and considering some different options.


heavy armor are 1-5% prior to enhancements, feats, etc and should be able to get 7-11% dodge easily. so 16% dodge is an adequate balance to the difference in AC misses as at end game it can be 40-50 ac. Heavy armor has more prr giving 10-20% more damage reduction. Light armor tanks have less hit points for taking a non fighter/pally class. light armor more often only has evasion, not improved evasion as rogues make poor tanks and if you have 12+ lvls of monk you don't need armor and if your in armor your probably worse off than in monk stance.

Most heavy armor tanks are str builds and hit the jump cap max jump. and the armor check penalty of 5 is nothing at end game. Swim is only useful in one quest (crucible) and not even really useful there. I haven't had a toon with a skill point in swim in years.

the dodge vs AC/prr is a good balance in tradeoff.

mrr is a nice addition to heavy armor... heavy armor needs something to survive in end game content.

lets look at the rest. what do you give up as a full figher/pally vs a fighter/pally splash 2 or 6 classes for evasion.

evastion and reflex vs capstone for attack speed/holy damage and dr breaking, 4th enhancement tier abillity. more spells or feat, more hp

this part leans more to the evasion toon, but it's not totally a win by the light armor tank especially with MRR adding protection for free on the full tank class side.

So what is the problem?

with the changes, splash fighters/pally retain most of what they had except for the shield change. What is the harm in letting these characters keep the heavy shield? They still take spell damage occasionally. If they don't, the shield change wouldn't help them anyway if they evade the damage. Instead those characters lose even more AC by going to light sheild. lose even more prr/mrr by going to light shield. lose years of grinding and inventory space as would you really throw the heavy shields away if the evasion build becomes too costly and you end up changeing anyway. And who gains? heavy armor tanks use tower shields since you don't have dex anyway so they won't use heavy shields. light armor tanks can't use it with evasion so they can't use it. Other non tank classes won't use shields as it takes away too much dps. Maybe a Druid/cleric build would use it if they didn't need the off hand for another spell buffing weapon. Do clerics normally care about AC? prr maybe. Barb's won't use it, arty's won't use it, bards won't, casters won't. so you will kill most of the use of all heavy shields for the sole purpose of slightly downgrading ac/prr/mrr of light armor tanks to make light shields useful that we don't want AND have to code new light shields for the game. put the development into more bucklers. Bucklers were added and it was a good change to the game because it wasn't a take away. 2 bucklers though aren't enough for 1 to 28. This change wasn't totally finished well so a further change to other shields shouldn't be done just so people use it. We don't have a change to make light maces useful in the game because no one uses them. if you want people to use light shields, just make some good ones and people would say... compare heavy shield a to light shield b and if it's good for some effect or whatever it would get used. no need to change game mechanics to force a change.

As i've stated before, don't make changes to take away. This change can be easy to just add the MRR to armor and shields and the neat shield effect and be done. no need to mess with anything else. Evasion tanks won't be more uber with heavy shields. They are not uber now. IT's good to evade but eventually you will fail and take full damage. make the mitigation 1.5 instead of 2 so heavy tanks are still king of the mrr and heavy still has a benefit. 1.25, or stay at 1.

Monks are another story and don't use shields at all so are irrelevant to this post.

I must admit this is personal to me. I have an 18 pally 2 monk tank using light armor and heavy shield. He was crushed by the MOTU changes and had to be totally redone to be useful. After years he is somewhat again. Is he uber. no. dbp is way too low (which is a problem for all tanks that probably need more addressing than magic damage). I would love the pally capstone, or 2 fighter feats. I would love the prr and ac my guidlie tanks have on their guys. I give this up to avoid most spell damage which makes me useful in select situations in raids but take more dps. Is giving those tanks which are already way ahead on physical damage magical damage reduction fair? They do need help in this area, but they are getting almost comparable reduction over the long haul for free. Will this cause damage to escalate in future raids? what about the bard or arty or druid without this heavy protection. Will those classes just super explode in future content? Isn't a better idea to scale back some damage to reasonable levels.

thanks for listening. if this sounds ranty... it was typed out way too late.

[losian2]

Some corrections.

~ I think you missed the fact that large or tower shields will double MRR versus damaging attacks that allow a Reflex save. So that 200 MRR will turn to 400 against anything that Evasion works against. That's ~73% mitigation, plus the heavy armor character can still possibly make a saving throw for half damage. While the absolute mitigation might not be as good the damage input will be much less spikey making these characters easier to heal in a frenetic battle, especially at the highest levels where two failed reflex saving throws might mean death.
Sev~

Anything that provides other ways to deal with reflex saves besides splashing is wonderful if you ask me.. This game is suffering from forced builds that make you take X or Y levels/feats JUST for that invaluable little nuance or two.. STuff like this would be a great way to give other options!

[Ebondevil]

Some people asked about Warforged and Bladeforged.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Mithral Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Light Armor. They can have Evasion and Improved Evasion. They gain 15 PRR and MRR like the light armors will provide.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Admantite Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Heavy Armor. They cannot use Evasion or Improved Evasion. They gain 45 PRR and MRR.

Sev~

I would personally argue that the Mithril Body Feat should give the same PRR/MRR as medium armour,
the armour it grants is the equivalent to a Mithril Breastplate if you compare the two:

Mithril Breastplate
+5 AC
-1 AC penalty to Skills
15% Arcane Spell Failure
+5 Max Dex Bonus

Mithril Body
+5 AC
-1 AC penalty to Skills
15% Arcane Spell Failure
+5 Max Dex Bonus

Both of which are treated as Light Armour, but should provide the PRR benefits of Medium Armour. Especially since Warforged and Bladeforged need to sacrifice a feat to get it, regardless of Class, unlike any other Race which gets Light/Medium armour for free.

The Composite Plating for All Warforged/Bladeforged is also a type of armour, and could possibly also grant some PRR/MRR even if they don't take the feats, to make up for the fact they don't get the benefits of the Class Feats that grant armour proficiency.

[Propane]

I have an 18 pally 2 monk tank using light armor and heavy shield. He was crushed by the MOTU changes and had to be totally redone to be useful.



Agreed - I am in the same boat - both with an 18pally/2monk (mixed in to FT levels since MOTU to add some dps (stunning blow) & have a 12 fighter 6 pally 2 rogue tank in a similar boat.
Changing shields mix with evasion after all these years will hurt - good shields are hard to come buy / hard to make.
I shutter at the thought of peps who ran LOB enough to get the shield they wanted - just to have it changed....

If you must - heavy/tower --> -2/-4 reflex save or something....

[Captain_Wizbang]

But... I specifically responded to your post?

/points up a few posts

As for Evasion + shield tanks, the design is that they will use light shields. It actually gives light shields a use. Yes, I realize that there are a lack of good light shields at the moment, precisely because in the past they had no use. We will be looking to add good light shields to the mix. I know we have light shields and bucklers planned for the content released with these changes.

Sev~

this is a step sideways. not forwards, not backwards either.

Mithril and "magical" shields currently in the game should be included in this as well.

[Thar]

Some corrections.

~ If the Bladeforged gets 45 PRR (s)he is using Admantite plating which counts as heavy armor and couldn't get Evasion. Mithral plating provides 15 PRR and can use Evasion.

~ I think you missed the fact that large or tower shields will double MRR versus damaging attacks that allow a Reflex save. So that 200 MRR will turn to 400 against anything that Evasion works against. That's ~73% mitigation, plus the heavy armor character can still possibly make a saving throw for half damage. While the absolute mitigation might not be as good the damage input will be much less spikey making these characters easier to heal in a frenetic battle, especially at the highest levels where two failed reflex saving throws might mean death.

~ The fact that characters designed as tanks can't hold agro is on our list. While we don't want to turn DDO into a strict trinity game (we like that you don't have to necessarily play towards that paradigm) we also don't want tanks to be useless either.

~ One handed fighting feats will not work with shields. We prefer a design that keeps the various fighting styles pure. On the other hand, if the DPS tree makes shield bashes hit as hard as we are imagining you will want the increased chance to shield bash from the shield feats. We just have to make sure that the increased shield bashes don't work while blocking because, let's face it a strategy where all you do is hold block and click for big shield bashes would really not be fun.

Sev~

73% migation vs evasion which fails for full damage at least 5% of the time and often more (25% avg) with space dedicated to full time slotting of resist items. In new content *Haunted halls, I've seen evasion builds blow up vs miirr that don't have a problem with anything else. This seems too high for no trade off since I assume that absorb/resist will stack on top of that. keeping it at the pre shield modifier would be fair since it cuts down the big hits, allows absorption to have a roll as today and gives evasion builds a niche to still be a little better at one area.

1000 hp blast - 73% = 270 hp - 33% absorb = 180.9 - 30% absorb = 126 = cocoon level/silver flame pot healing for heavy tanks. what will clerics do?

evastion 1000 hp blast = 25% full damage, 75% no damage = 250 average = 33% aborb -30 % absorb. =117.25 average but in reallity it's miss miss miss boom.. (need heal and clerics have a role).

if you say what about a 3000 pt blast... really? we are at a point in the game where we need to throw damage around that will one shot 95% of the classes/characters?

heavy tanks need help in this area and this is a good idea it's just WAAAY too much. the pre modifier 38% is enough.

why would you pick evasion over heavy armor in the above?

[Qhualor]

73% migation vs evasion which fails for full damage at least 5% of the time and often more (25% avg) with space dedicated to full time slotting of resist items. In new content *Haunted halls, I've seen evasion builds blow up vs miirr that don't have a problem with anything else. This seems too high for no trade off since I assume that absorb/resist will stack on top of that. keeping it at the pre shield modifier would be fair since it cuts down the big hits, allows absorption to have a roll as today and gives evasion builds a niche to still be a little better at one area.

1000 hp blast - 73% = 270 hp - 33% absorb = 180.9 - 30% absorb = 126 = cocoon level/silver flame pot healing for heavy tanks. what will clerics do?

evastion 1000 hp blast = 25% full damage, 75% no damage = 250 average = 33% aborb -30 % absorb. =117.25 average but in reallity it's miss miss miss boom.. (need heal and clerics have a role).

if you say what about a 3000 pt blast... really? we are at a point in the game where we need to throw damage around that will one shot 95% of the classes/characters?

heavy tanks need help in this area and this is a good idea it's just WAAAY too much. the pre modifier 38% is enough.

why would you pick evasion over heavy armor in the above?

not that I want to get into a BYOH discussion, but..

roles are only played in raids now and at least half the time, its BYOH. you can thank the players that wanted the game to go in that direction and Turbine listening to them. today its about self sufficiency and teamwork.

[Nascoe]

Sev, can we talk about adding greensteel and thunder forged shields? They would certainly help.


Oh, and bring back the dodge cap change. It was the best idea I saw presented and it was scrapped in a matter of hours. I thought: finally, a purpose to medium armor and a much needed buff for barbs.

Good point, although I doubt anyone is going to add to GS nowadays, if Turbine gives players an option of small shields from TF it would really help the step change because we could start off by making our own solid shield until we get any new ones that will be added in the future

[bbqzor]

I think you missed the fact that large or tower shields will double MRR versus damaging attacks that allow a Reflex save. So that 200 MRR will turn to 400 against anything that Evasion works against. That's ~73% mitigation, plus the heavy armor character can still possibly make a saving throw for half damage. While the absolute mitigation might not be as good the damage input will be much less spikey making these characters easier to heal in a frenetic battle, especially at the highest levels where two failed reflex saving throws might mean death.
How do you not get that if the idea was to make heavy armor "mo betta" compared to evasion, that giving it a 100% chance for 3/4ths damage is too "betta". I get wanting to support heavy armor, but this is effectively invincible mode. You dont think that running around taking 250 dmg all the time when everyone else is at risk of a 1k nuke is overkill?


The fact that characters designed as tanks can't hold agro is on our list. While we don't want to turn DDO into a strict trinity game (we like that you don't have to necessarily play towards that paradigm) we also don't want tanks to be useless either.
Very rarely an issue. I realize that with the forums you hear from all types, but anyone trying to hold agro on a well built character generally can. The problem you often run into in pugs and such is an under developed or under geared tank facing a multi life well geared sorc or something, and the constant spikes from nukes outpace the intim timer and the tank guy cant do his job. Given equally situated characters (ie, tank and caster or whatever have same amount of past lives, same destiny work, similar gear levels etc) the tanks can easily do their jobs. I realize this may not address heroic, but in all my heroic runs it wasnt quite so important the tank lock everything down as it is during events later on.

If you want to do something here, i would suggest one easy and thematic fix be to give tanks an enhancement line in their tanky destiny which cuts the intim timer down. So like Stalwarts and Sacred Defenders could take a 3 rank thing which like sets intimidate from 12s up 15s cd, to 10/12 at rank 1, then 8/10, then 6/8 at max. Having the button available twice as often to cover the increasing frequent spikes from epic things should do it. And it should make heroic easier as well (heroic you dont get surprise spikes or adds nearly as often, so grabbing one group of mobs then another should be good enough).


One handed fighting feats will not work with shields. We prefer a design that keeps the various fighting styles pure. On the other hand, if the DPS tree makes shield bashes hit as hard as we are imagining you will want the increased chance to shield bash from the shield feats. We just have to make sure that the increased shield bashes don't work while blocking because, let's face it a strategy where all you do is hold block and click for big shield bashes would really not be fun.

Uggghhh why more shield bash. Just stop whatever you are doing and seriously, please, I BEG YOU!!!! Go load in a s/b. Go find the training dummy or dojo kobolds or whatever you use to test. Equip your junk and start swinging. Shield Bash has an animation cap which prevents it from attacking as fast as it should. Stack on all kinds of whatever garbage you want, your shield bash rate will cap out. You will not get all the bashes you should. Watch carefully. Read your combat log. Do some math with things like doublestrike, offhand proc chance, haste, etc. Your shield bash will fall behind. It will not get the benefits in Stalwart of bashing more. An item of bashing wont help. Etc.

Unless you have personally logged in and verified this is no longer the case, shield-anything is pointless. I'd like to see a post, saying exactly that, so that I can then go look and be sure its fixed. Then, and only then, is it worth commenting on anything bash related.


The heavy armor tank gives Evasion and Improved Evasion. That itself is a big disadvantage.
The "heavy armor tank" doesnt give those things up. He never had them. He builds differently. Trying to say that things you never got is an offset cost against things you are getting is just bad logic. Man, my heavy tank armor gave up Heal. Also, he gave up Haste. And I didnt build him to have Fireball either. Ugh. I need to get a 75% chance to cast a self healing meteor swarm of haste now. Thats what that reads like. The game has existed, just fine, for years at this point. You dont "give up" things. You build towards what you want. Not building for evasion is a choice, just like building for heavy armor is a choice.


Heavy armored characters give up a lot of Dodge. Maybe 27% mitigation.
Maybe. My Heavy Armor tank has 14-15% dodge, because I went and put some stuff on him to help with that. So hes missing 10% avoidance (not mitigation, dodge is all or nothing bro). Trade off is a lot of AC gains from the armor (175-200 destiny depending, not as good as many but admittedly I dont play him often as several of my friends have better tanks). It works just fine for me. Again, you are acting like they are "giving up" things they never had. People have to pick what to build for, thats DDO. That good build choices are not obvious, or are difficult to arrive at, that may be an issue yes. But it doesnt mean there are not good ones on the table. Acting like heavy armor gave up 27% dodge is a straw argument, they only give it up if the build actually gives it up, it doesnt have to.


They give up Jump, which I use constantly when I fight with characters with lighter armors. They give up lots of Swim which can really be annoying in the watery dungeons.
You just lost a lot of whatever tiny bit of cred you have. Anyone from lv 11-15+ can and should be hitting 40 jump at will whenever they need to. Certainly at 18+ with the items out there just waiting to be looted. And swim? Seriously swim? "Omg im really annoyed in the like two water dungeons in the game"? That was posted by a dev? I did the crucible swim earlier this week on a heavy armor and shield paladin. My swim score? 5. With zero ranks. Swapped some junk around, grabbed whatever buffs available from the party, and took off with a 20. Did it just fine, at level, on Heroic Elite. If people never swap their gear around, or never ask the party for buffs, or never carry potions, or what have you.. yes those are issues. But that is the fault of an unprepared player. DDO (and pnp) are as much about preparing as they are about execution. If your heavy tank cant jump and you cant swim, well, thats on you not the heavy armor.


In this system to really get the most out of the heavier armors you will also want to gear towards PRR and MRR. Those gears choices will mean giving up on other stats
See, that the system is determining what we have to build for is limiting player choices and destroying builds. You talk about not wanting to be a "trinity" game and then throw this out. Its effectively the same thing. I know PRR is already in game, but everyone can access and enjoy the rewards of working on that. Trying to make it a "heavy armor tank" thing is forcing peoples hands. Just call it like it is... dont act like its a freely accessible move.


I will look into why the Dodge cap might be lower for Mithral Body. I don't know off hand why this was done or what it is balanced against.

Its that way because back in the day (the day being like 2006) it used the old (3.5 pnp version) of armor statting to copy. At this point, its outdated, and an artifact of copying pnp from which everything else has already moved on. And honestly, even back then, it wasnt an appealing choice. People went composite or adamantine, just like they do now. The Mithril Fluidity feat which was supposed to help mithril body never gave enough of a boost to be worth taking 2 feat slots (mithirl body, plus fluidity). Honestly, with the system going in, now is a good time to finally address those 2 feats. Maybe combo them up so its just one feat slot with legit stats, and tweak the numbers a bit. They are one of the last sitings of original ddo armor and could use a face lift.


As for Evasion + shield tanks, the design is that they will use light shields. It actually gives light shields a use.

Man. Two things. One, no one has ever cared that light shields didnt have a use. You pulled that out of thin air. When you gave bucklers a use by adding swash, that was cool, they had none and were given one and it didnt take away from anybody. You want to make light shields better for evasion? Fine. You want to nerf every shield using evasion guy out there currently? Not cool bro. Additions are cool. Widesweeping nerfs for no reason other than "cause I wanna" are the epitome of terrible design, and its going to make people upset, and that doesnt help anything.

Two, this change does more than just that. It means anyone building for evasion will have access to lower AC and PRR values than they currently do. Tanking, currently, is hard. Its the most gear intensive job out there, and takes making a ton of sacrifices in build choices pursuing the few things which are efficient enough to get you to a good ending place. Taking away ground they gain by lowering prr/ac is not going to "help evasion tanks" by "giving their items a use". Its going to drop their tanking stats so they cant tank anymore, and kill even the name of their role as "evasion tank".


Yes, I realize that there are a lack of good light shields at the moment, precisely because in the past they had no use. We will be looking to add good light shields to the mix. I know we have light shields and bucklers planned for the content released with these changes.

Dont even know where to start here. Adding more items to the mix is not a fix its a trap. You guys never have enough time to do large itemization correctly. It never gets finished either. Youre going to add a couple in the pack that comes out with it, those will be whats there, and that will be it. It does nothing to address what people have used for years. Or what mods are currently available. Or across what level ranges and in which packs, for people who arent 20+ with all content. And what about non shield users? Which is probably the majority of your player base if my raid/pug experience is any indicator? You think everyones going to be fine if the pack is like 50% shield drops no one needs? Or you think youre going to be able to itemize a full pack of stuff, plus another 20 shields and bucklers which are backwards itemized over the whole game? None of that is realistic.

You need to take some time and go add light shields all over. Like rune arms, at a minimum. Then, AFTER the items are there to support it, make changes (which I still think are a bad idea but you seem to invested in this to pull out now). Dont pull the rug out and promise to catch us. Loot has a history of being hit and miss stat wise, and imbalanced slot wise. 3BC was better, but Im not going to overlook 6+ years of mistakes because of 1 good run. Until we can see what, exactly, you consider "good shields" are being added to the "content released" theres really no way to put any stock in this comment. It just sounds like a trap: if you believe it, youll get disappointed/nerfed, if you dont, you have to reroll your guy and throw away all your work. Either way, its bad.

[sephiroth1084]

They give up Jump, which I use constantly when I fight with characters with lighter armors. They give up lots of Swim which can really be annoying in the watery dungeons.


Uh, what?

How are heavy armor users giving up Jump? Are you referring exclusively to the low levels? It's so easy to cap Jump (40) that few characters ever bother with more than a rank or 2. Heavy armor has no discernible impact on the ability to jump around somewhere between level 11 and 18 (earlier if you have access to the Jump spel and caster levels, or group with full casters, later if you have to wait until you can get Morah's Belt from Amrath). Items with bonuses to Jump on them are almost entirely useless unless you, inexplicably, don't have a high CL Jump clicky (or need to be able to hit max Jump in quests where you're getting dispelled alot/have over 30 minutes between shrines).

Why are you jumping around a lot in combat?

Swim? How many dungeons do we have where swimming is a necessity at all? In how many of those can we dolphin-hop across the top of the water to avoid a slow Swim speed? How many of those put any emphasis whatsoever on being able to swim fast? And, finally, in how many of those do you have swims that are both long enough to really be annoyed by a slow swim speed, and have reasons to need to wear heavy armor while swimming? Sure, it takes a little while to get your armor back on, but if the swim is long enough, it would make more sense to take it off, do the swim, then put it back on.

I cannot imagine many players give any thought whatsoever to how heavy armor impacts things like this.

[Desonde]

~ If someone really wants to tank they will be looking for a smoother, more predictable damage mitigation.



Heavy armored characters give up a lot of Dodge. Maybe 27% mitigation. They give up Jump, which I use constantly when I fight with characters with lighter armors.

In this system to really get the most out of the heavier armors you will also want to gear towards PRR and MRR. Those gears choices will mean giving up on other stats.


This is pretty interested because you are stating that the play style you constantly use is in line with how the meta plays. You then suggest that tanking isn't really in the design but 'If someone really wants to tank.' you're delivering a theoretical solution to a theoretical problem.

Gearing towards PRR and MRR will show diminishing returns and will still heavily favor light armor over heavy armor. By this I mean that the first 50 points of PRR/MRR will reduce the damage as much as going from 51-150. (150/200=.75 vs 150/300=.5) they would need to further go from 150-450 in order to reduce the damage by a further 0.25.

Here's why that's an issue, 300PRR/MRR is probably around where players will be able to get which will be 33% damage taken, let's say the player has 1200hp and the base damage the monster does is 100. Said monster will now only do 33 a hit or about .275% of the total hp per second, however, at the point when tanking starts to have issues there will be 16 creatures attacking at least once a second, so that 33/0.275% becomes 528/44% per second meaning the tanks death occurs in ~2.27 seconds.

However it gets worse, on normal with full scaling that 100 becomes 170 (On hard does it only scale faster or is the cap also increased?) which is 56/4.666% at 300prr. Against the spawns of 16 it will be 896/74.666%.

This system works fine against bosses, even at 250 damage a hit, but a tank will have to sit back and try not to get hit until they make it to the boss because their defenses will fall apart when facing off against numbers.

Against reflex saves the some tank would only take ~10% damage (150/750=.2*.5(for tower shield)?) from every hit, so lets say it's 180 with resistances factored in, resulting in 18, and magic users spawn in groups of up to 8 (haven't seen any groups of 16 AoE spell spammers yet) results in 144 damage every 3 seconds, half if they can also make the reflex save.

Now lets compare that to a light armored imp. evasion character that jumps around and tries to get hit as little as possible (ranged and run, or Displacement, Incorp, Dodge, Blind). With around 150prr/mrr if they get hit they will take 1/2 damage as apposed to 1/3. When hit by an evadable effect, 5% of the time they will take 25% of the damage dealt (or grant them an effect similar to Imp. Evasion if they have only evasion).

No armored toons will probably be less effected depending on sources of mrr for them.

This isn't enough to make heavy armored characters viable beyond where they are currently, it will however add to the power creep of the current meta (and help boost light armor options).

To test the viability of the changes, take your ideal build into a fully scaled 'Thrill of the Hunt' and 'What Goes Up' and try and tank the spawns in the end bosses.

[Rixaen]

MRR?

Really I mean REALLY?. No seriously.

We have something called SR already. You know Spell Resistance. and if you bothered to have actual balance between players and mobs when it comes to CR then SR would be a very viable defense for non evasion characters and for SR users evasion would be a back up not the other way around.

There is a reason Drow have it, and it is suppose to be to make them nearly unstoppable against arcane forces, that is infact the logic behind someone as ****ing mighty as Elminster wanting the help of others, mainly non casters, in fighting off the threat to Eveningstar.

Infact yes in PnP my go to race for warriors is drow as they are the best race to provide a needed layer of protection against magic in high lvl play for those of a more warrior orientation.

The fact that items like the Ring of Evasion, items with actual useful SR, and items like the holy avenger for pallies that dispels on hit, and offers great SR to the pallie wielding it are all not in the game are the issue, not needing to ****ing move ever more away from PnP rules and traditions that made life long D&D players give this waste of programming a chance.

[Qhualor]

MRR?

Really I mean REALLY?. No seriously.

We have something called SR already. You know Spell Resistance. and if you bothered to have actual balance between players and mobs when it comes to CR then SR would be a very viable defense for non evasion characters and for SR users evasion would be a back up not the other way around.

There is a reason Drow have it, and it is suppose to be to make them nearly unstoppable against arcane forces, that is infact the logic behind someone as ****ing mighty as Elminster wanting the help of others, mainly non casters, in fighting off the threat to Eveningstar.

Infact yes in PnP my go to race for warriors is drow as they are the best race to provide a needed layer of protection against magic in high lvl play for those of a more warrior orientation.

The fact that items like the Ring of Evasion, items with actual useful SR, and items like the holy avenger for pallies that dispels on hit, and offers great SR to the pallie wielding it are all not in the game are the issue, not needing to ****ing move ever more away from PnP rules and traditions that made life long D&D players give this waste of programming a chance.

so you are saying you want spell resistance to be more like magical and natural poison? you want spell resistance to work so you have a chance to make a save against an enemy caster that throws a fireball at you and a chance at not taking any fire damage?

[Severlin]

Uh, what?

How are heavy armor users giving up Jump?

I cannot imagine many players give any thought whatsoever to how heavy armor impacts things like this.

As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~

[Rixaen]

so you are saying you want spell resistance to be more like magical and natural poison? you want spell resistance to work so you have a chance to make a save against an enemy caster that throws a fireball at you and a chance at not taking any fire damage?

that is and how it had always been in PnP do you not know that how SR works here in DDO is watered down and frankly just wrong. It is well known for example that in PnP where you can hurt yourself and allies with your aoe effects for example rarely do you see wizards dance in things like walls of fire or point blank a fireball. Except races like Drow which are historically prone to such seemingly reckless tactics because, and to quote an old manual on drow, harmful magic is about as likely to threaten a drow as much as a rainy day does a duck.

In fact for many drow fans, the fact drow where a race that from the get go required special effort to unlock and yet was watered down and inherently gimp due to the way 32 point stat races worked that the way they ****ed up SR in DDO and on the drow player race in paticular was a huge slap in the face that I have no doubt drove off many fans of playing drow.

A drow, a paladin with a holy avenger, hell anyone with a good SR item of around 10 plus their current character lvl was pretty safe from most magical attacks. Hence why most casters in PnP often have large groups of non caster warrior orientated servants or allies just like player wizards do for when things like golems come along.

In fact in 2nd ed MR or magic resistance as it was known back then was a straight % and drow had a base 50% plus 2% for each lvl they had. with a cap at 80%, but they also where known to be able to brew a potion that could further enhance this and render them virtually immune to hostile magic for the time it lasted and was commonly carried only in raids on the surface by the front line assault force to help ofcourse further create the illusion to surface dwellers of drow magic immunity.

[bbqzor]

As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Jump potions, house P buff, a +5 jump item swap... this junk is fixable even in the harbor stages of the game. If new players dont have the resources, okay, theyre new and will likely face those conditions in many areas. If youre worried about people "cycling through heroic quite a bit"... hi those are the exact kind of people that will know about jump potions, house P buff, etc.

As an aside... what the heck would jump even have to do with "Armor and Mitigation" changes anyhow? Youre not talking about dropping heavy armor's armor check penalty. Youve not once acted like taking your armor off for a jump and putting it back on is being changed with new "equip your armor fast" feats. What does that even have to do with the discussion! You brought it up in a list of few things to try and act like heavy armor was totally pwning players as a terrible choice, why? Because you had nothing else to cite? Back to the points in the OP maybe, jumps a non-issue and should never have been mentioned.

[Rixaen]

As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~

This right here is going to give you an endless nightmare with dealing with the typical forumite of DDO who lives to min max, meta game the content, and really only cares about their completed toon rather then the journey towards that sense of completion. Its also an aspect of our forums that drives off many would be new citizens of Storms Reach.

DDO has become the haven for zerg mentality type players. It is what it is and even mentioning you give a thought to any other aspect of the game will be viewed by them as either ignorant or uncaring of what to this type of gamer is the only aspect that DEVs need to focus on.

[Rixaen]

Jump potions, house P buff, a +5 jump item swap... this junk is fixable even in the harbor stages of the game. If new players dont have the resources, okay, theyre new and will likely face those conditions in many areas. If youre worried about people "cycling through heroic quite a bit"... hi those are the exact kind of people that will know about jump potions, house P buff, etc.

As an aside... what the heck would jump even have to do with "Armor and Mitigation" changes anyhow? Youre not talking about dropping heavy armor's armor check penalty. Youve not once acted like taking your armor off for a jump and putting it back on is being changed with new "equip your armor fast" feats. What does that even have to do with the discussion! You brought it up in a list of few things to try and act like heavy armor was totally pwning players as a terrible choice, why? Because you had nothing else to cite? Back to the points in the OP maybe, jumps a non-issue and should never have been mentioned.

Well i do recall long ago in the way back a party wiping in I think it ws von3 because the cleric couldnt make a jump to reach a much needed shrine, no matter that they stripped down, had their dumped str buffed as much as it could be, a GH and a jump spell all cast on them, and they just couldnt reach it.

I think that jump was later tweaked or removed to make it much easier and not actually require an investment in jump to make. I always thought such where a far more fair way to approach making some shrines less then a given then say trapped shrines which still require trap skills to safely clear during a moment most typically noted for being when players are worn down, low on life and mana, and need that shrine.

[Qhualor]

that is and how it had always been in PnP do you not know that how SR works here in DDO is watered down and frankly just wrong. It is well known for example that in PnP where you can hurt yourself and allies with your aoe effects for example rarely do you see wizards dance in things like walls of fire or point blank a fireball. Except races like Drow which are historically prone to such seemingly reckless tactics because, and to quote an old manual on drow, harmful magic is about as likely to threaten a drow as much as a rainy day does a duck.

In fact for many drow fans, the fact drow where a race that from the get go required special effort to unlock and yet was watered down and inherently gimp due to the way 32 point stat races worked that the way they ****ed up SR in DDO and on the drow player race in paticular was a huge slap in the face that I have no doubt drove off many fans of playing drow.

A drow, a paladin with a holy avenger, hell anyone with a good SR item of around 10 plus their current character lvl was pretty safe from most magical attacks. Hence why most casters in PnP often have large groups of non caster warrior orientated servants or allies just like player wizards do for when things like golems come along.

In fact in 2nd ed MR or magic resistance as it was known back then was a straight % and drow had a base 50% plus 2% for each lvl they had. with a cap at 80%, but they also where known to be able to brew a potion that could further enhance this and render them virtually immune to hostile magic for the time it lasted and was commonly carried only in raids on the surface by the front line assault force to help ofcourse further create the illusion to surface dwellers of drow magic immunity.

im just trying to understand what you mean by SR. I know how it works. fortunately in this game we don't have to worry about friendly fire too much or DDO would be a very different game.

taken from 3.5

Spell Resistance (Ex)[edit]

Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.) To determine if a spell or spell-like ability works against a creature with spell resistance, the caster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level). If the result equals or exceeds the creature’s spell resistance, the spell works normally, although the creature is still allowed a saving throw. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another.

Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps.

as you can see it says its like an Armor Class against magical attacks. sounds awfully like this brand new thing Sev is implementing with MRR, except he/she is tying it to actual armor. im not 100% on board with MRR myself and I could actually be more behind SR working as described above instead. I cant speak why Sev or whoever would be the dev would be to make SR work as it really should. it does seem to make more sense.

not all spells would work though. I don't know what is considered extraordinary or supernatural in DDO.

[jakeelala]

Jump potions, house P buff, a +5 jump item swap... this junk is fixable even in the harbor stages of the game. If new players dont have the resources, okay, theyre new and will likely face those conditions in many areas. If youre worried about people "cycling through heroic quite a bit"... hi those are the exact kind of people that will know about jump potions, house P buff, etc.

As an aside... what the heck would jump even have to do with "Armor and Mitigation" changes anyhow? Youre not talking about dropping heavy armor's armor check penalty. Youve not once acted like taking your armor off for a jump and putting it back on is being changed with new "equip your armor fast" feats. What does that even have to do with the discussion! You brought it up in a list of few things to try and act like heavy armor was totally pwning players as a terrible choice, why? Because you had nothing else to cite? Back to the points in the OP maybe, jumps a non-issue and should never have been mentioned.

Let it go, it was a bad justification but you're not going to get anywhere skewering him for it.

[Oxarhamar]

As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~

Good to hear this is your thinking!

Funny story: I watched a Heavy Armor wearing trying to do the jump puzzle in Deathwrym wearing their skivvies.

[Satyriasys]

I cannot imagine many players give any thought whatsoever to how heavy armor impacts things like this.


It's called armor check penalty. If you do not value skills in ddo then it will matter little to you. There is a large majority however who make great use from ddo's skill system.

[Silverleafeon]

Uh, what?

How are heavy armor users giving up Jump? Are you referring exclusively to the low levels? It's so easy to cap Jump (40) that few characters ever bother with more than a rank or 2. Heavy armor has no discernible impact on the ability to jump around somewhere between level 11 and 18 (earlier if you have access to the Jump spel and caster levels, or group with full casters, later if you have to wait until you can get Morah's Belt from Amrath). Items with bonuses to Jump on them are almost entirely useless unless you, inexplicably, don't have a high CL Jump clicky (or need to be able to hit max Jump in quests where you're getting dispelled alot/have over 30 minutes between shrines).

Why are you jumping around a lot in combat?

Swim? How many dungeons do we have where swimming is a necessity at all? In how many of those can we dolphin-hop across the top of the water to avoid a slow Swim speed? How many of those put any emphasis whatsoever on being able to swim fast? And, finally, in how many of those do you have swims that are both long enough to really be annoyed by a slow swim speed, and have reasons to need to wear heavy armor while swimming? Sure, it takes a little while to get your armor back on, but if the swim is long enough, it would make more sense to take it off, do the swim, then put it back on.

I cannot imagine many players give any thought whatsoever to how heavy armor impacts things like this.


As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~

Actually if you test the jump ability of any toon with a jump skill of 40+ while wearing heavy armor and while not wearing heavy armor,
you will find the one in heavy armor has less jump length/range.

Why?

Because Heavy Armor slows movement speed.

Don't believe me, go to sands or marketplace, get out a stop watch, test it for yourself.

[Thar]

As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~

Fighter lvl 1 - 4 ranks jump, 18 str, plate armor = 8-5 = 3 jump + 10 pot = 13

Sorc lvl 1 which need jump a lot more than fighter to avoid hits... 2 ranks of jump cross class, 10 str, no armor = 2 + 0 = 2 + 10 pot = 12

armor users need no assistance with skills. This shouldn't be part of the discussion. if you can't make a necessary jump in armor... you take it off, make the jump, put it back on. it's the way it's been done for years in pnp and ddo.

[Dawnsblood]

As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~

This is the part that worries me a bit. I always thought that heroic levels were more geared toward the new player than toward TRs. I'd hate to recommend this game to a friend and then have to babysit him/her through a few TRs before they could play without me. If your plan is to rebalance lvls 1-20 toward TRs I'm not recommending this game to any more new people I know in RL. I'd never hear the end of how unforgiving it would be. That or I guess I'd have to be prepared to twink them out at the very least . . .

[Pseudograph]

As for Evasion + shield tanks, the design is that they will use light shields. It actually gives light shields a use. Yes, I realize that there are a lack of good light shields at the moment, precisely because in the past they had no use. We will be looking to add good light shields to the mix. I know we have light shields and bucklers planned for the content released with these changes.
Sev~

You probably can't show or tell us much of anything about the (evasion allowed) small shields yet to be released. This is unknown.

We can see what we have now (and for the past several years) been able to use with evasion. This is known.

I have been pleasantly surprised before (more than once) after my "fear" had overcome my faith in the people that make this game happen.

Yet again, we are asked for (not merely feedback, but) our trust.

I do believe Severlin that you feel that certain changes will be genuinely necessary to get the heavy infantry back on the battle field.

I share your wish to get the metal back on the front line.

I am (naturally) still compelled to question the necessity of the "nerf" that will make heavy shields incompatible with evasion.

If we knew more...If...."small shields"....How many birds in the bush???'....

Just remember poor Fernando Paiz and his paralyzer crafting recipe.

Pseudograph

[cdbd3rd]

.... Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~


Hero for the little people!!! (and I don't just mean the halflings) :D

[Thar]

Here's why that's an issue, 300PRR/MRR is probably around where players will be able to get which will be 33% damage taken, let's say the player has 1200hp and the base damage the monster does is 100. Said monster will now only do 33 a hit or about .275% of the total hp per second, however, at the point when tanking starts to have issues there will be 16 creatures attacking at least once a second, so that 33/0.275% becomes 528/44% per second meaning the tanks death occurs in ~2.27 seconds.

However it gets worse, on normal with full scaling that 100 becomes 170 (On hard does it only scale faster or is the cap also increased?) which is 56/4.666% at 300prr. Against the spawns of 16 it will be 896/74.666%.

This system works fine against bosses, even at 250 damage a hit, but a tank will have to sit back and try not to get hit until they make it to the boss because their defenses will fall apart when facing off against numbers.

Against reflex saves the some tank would only take ~10% damage (150/750=.2*.5(for tower shield)?) from every hit, so lets say it's 180 with resistances factored in, resulting in 18, and magic users spawn in groups of up to 8 (haven't seen any groups of 16 AoE spell spammers yet) results in 144 damage every 3 seconds, half if they can also make the reflex save.

Now lets compare that to a light armored imp. evasion character that jumps around and tries to get hit as little as possible (ranged and run, or Displacement, Incorp, Dodge, Blind). With around 150prr/mrr if they get hit they will take 1/2 damage as apposed to 1/3. When hit by an evadable effect, 5% of the time they will take 25% of the damage dealt (or grant them an effect similar to Imp. Evasion if they have only evasion).

No armored toons will probably be less effected depending on sources of mrr for them.

This isn't enough to make heavy armored characters viable beyond where they are currently, it will however add to the power creep of the current meta (and help boost light armor options).



Heavy armor tank can use incorp, dodge at a lesster %, blind, displace and tactical movement just the same as your light armor guy. As someone that has both, the light armor takes much more of a beating due to less ac, less prr. You can't do epic elites and stand toe to to against anything in light armor now as the melee tear you up. the trade off is you have evasion for the spell damage which is getting nerf'd in our favor but mainly only for heavy armor tanks which can already today handle the melee damage with cocoon and asorb, bladeforge healing, etc. try a tempest ranger vs a starward defender. the tempest ranger gets torn up. adding double mrr with a shield negates even more to the heavy armor build. with 73% mrr damage mitigation, any toon can tank the storm reaver in heavy armor/shield on hard with no other absorb items with some self healing. what more do you need? this is with no character build sacrifices. no levels in a class that adds minimal benefit. Monks will have some competition for king tank.

light armor already doesn't always take spell damage for most reflex items with evasion. they will take a little less but I don't see any comparable prr on light armor that i see on a stawart defender or DOS.

[sephiroth1084]

As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~
Note that in my comment, I was referring to about half of the heroic level range, and, really, there are very few places you need 40 Jump. A Str-based character in heavy armor isn't going to be hurting for jump enough that their armor check penalty is going to be a deciding factor in what armor they're wearing--the deciding factors are: do I get more damage mitigation by wearing light/no armor, or from heavy armor? what worthwhile named armors are there for me at whichever part of the game is relevant to me (middle heroic, level 20, early epics, endgame)? What class features/enhancements do I have available that benefit from one type of armor or the other?

An exception might occur if a character is just on the cusp of having enough Tumble for flips, or enough Balance to resist being knocked down somewhere (very few places in the game), where the additional ACP would drop them below the threshold. Most of the time, however, if the player cares about these things, they strive to get their bonuses high enough to overcome the ACP.

Well i do recall long ago in the way back a party wiping in I think it ws von3 because the cleric couldnt make a jump to reach a much needed shrine, no matter that they stripped down, had their dumped str buffed as much as it could be, a GH and a jump spell all cast on them, and they just couldnt reach it.

I think that jump was later tweaked or removed to make it much easier and not actually require an investment in jump to make. I always thought such where a far more fair way to approach making some shrines less then a given then say trapped shrines which still require trap skills to safely clear during a moment most typically noted for being when players are worn down, low on life and mana, and need that shrine.Right. Note that, even with their armor off, they couldn't make the jump. That's largely due to their not having Str, and not having ranks in the Jump skill. And, yes, that difficult jump was removed, because it unfairly penalized certain characters (clerics mostly). There are very few places in the game where jump is that important, and where you need a very high jump skill.

Most non-cleric characters wearing heavy armor have no problem with their jumps, and once the Jump spell maxes out, even fewer characters have that problem.


It's called armor check penalty. If you do not value skills in ddo then it will matter little to you. There is a large majority however who make great use from ddo's skill system.

I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic, or derogatory, or are genuinely trying to be informative, but in any case, you missed my point.

The ACP from heavy armor is only very rarely, and predominantly only at low levels, enough of an issue to warrant removing your armor. Given that, why, if heavy armor suited you better than light for every other purpose, would you choose the lesser armor as your primary outfit?

[sephiroth1084]

Also, because it has been brought up, I'll add my voice to pointing out that simply adding MRR and having heavier armors and shields provide more PRR is not going to significantly improve the stock of heavy armor wearers, because the PRR/MRR system's diminishing returns are still skewed to more heavily benefit lighter armored characters who get between 1/3 and 3/4 as much effective mitigation from PRR/MRR, while having 15-25% more Dodge, and adding Evasion and Improved Evasion to the mix. It's been a problem for a long time, exacerbated by all of the non-armor sources of PRR available to everyone, like augments, which allow even lightly armored characters to get 80+ PRR, while still being able to maintain a high Dodge%, and retaining Evasion.

I still haven't seen much talk about AC and how that is going to get fixed to actually be worthwhile.

[Ayseifn]

Also, because it has been brought up, I'll add my voice to pointing out that simply adding MRR and having heavier armors and shields provide more PRR is not going to significantly improve the stock of heavy armor wearers, because the PRR/MRR system's diminishing returns are still skewed to more heavily benefit lighter armored characters who get between 1/3 and 3/4 as much effective mitigation from PRR/MRR, while having 15-25% more Dodge, and adding Evasion and Improved Evasion to the mix. It's been a problem for a long time, exacerbated by all of the non-armor sources of PRR available to everyone, like augments, which allow even lightly armored characters to get 80+ PRR, while still being able to maintain a high Dodge%, and retaining Evasion.

I still haven't seen much talk about AC and how that is going to get fixed to actually be worthwhile.

The low hanging fruit issue with PRR/MRR is mainly problematic to melees IMO, casters can get a lot more out of these changes as a shield doesn't really lower DPS and neither does shield blocking. So I'd guess we'd see more clerics in heavy with shields after the change and less robe wearers but you're right about not changing enough for melees. PRR is also skewed too heavily in favour of monks right now, 15 PRR in GM earth, +15 from shintao, another +15 from a twist and 10 from meditation of war = 55, while a cleric in heavy on live is at 64-69(?) if they take 2-3 shield feats and twist shield mastery. That ~10 PRR difference will only get more meaningless as you stack on more PRR.


AC is a pretty big part of the puzzle here that's unfortunately been ignored, the damage from grazing hits are affected by what shield you use or how many centered monk levels you have so it's somewhat relevant.

[Systern]

Just a thought... Why is the PRR formula tied to BAB at all? Why is the Base ATTACK bonus used to determine defense? People have pointed out the diminishing returns of PRR. What if instead of having 2 systems, one of which is completely broken and irrelevant, it's incorporated into the new system?

What if Light Armor adds 60% of its AC to PRR, Medium 80%, and Heavy Armor 100%? That would mean that those "Armored boots of Natural Armor" you found would actually provide some meaningful defense. It would mean that all the AC effects in the game, either affixes or enhancements, weren't just a waste of space.

The enhancement value of the item could then be added to MRR. A +5 armor adding 50% of its AC to MRR, and a +13 Armor adding 130%...

Heavy users would have inflated PRR values, but that system is designed to hyper-inflate. And while the purist won't like that this AC change is not d20, the proposed system isn't either.

K.I.S.S. right?


DDO has a history of abandoning the legacy systems for new code. I'd really like to see DDO evolve, instead of constantly reinventing.

[janave]

(Edited based on player feedback.)

Greetings.

I wanted to jump in and talk about some upcoming changes we are working on.

We have been looking at player feedback and we wanted to make changes to the game to open up more templates and character types. We are currently fairly happy with the high end potential of casters and characters who wear no armor or light armor and use Evasion. These characters can kite and use magic to do fairly well in our content.

The characters that seem to be falling behind are the heavily armored characters. Part of the problem is that they can’t use Evasion, and part of the problem is that armor doesn’t really offer that much more armor class than robes or light armor. We have been discussing this a lot lately.

We don’t want to hurt Evasion builds. We would rather bring the mitigation of armor and shields to those levels. Our only caveat is we don’t want Evasion builds to be able to reach the highest levels of physical mitigation on top of their existing defenses.

Here are some of the changes we are considering.

Physical Resist Rating
The first change is to prepare Physical Resist Rating for use in the armor changes. The formula for the rating will change to the following formula, with the resulting multiplier applied to all physical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

This progression follows the current formula very closely out to 300 and then this formula is more generous at those higher end values.

As examples, a PRR of 50 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.75, a PRR of 100 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.6, and a PRR of 200 would offer a damage multiplier of 0.4285.

Magical Resist Rating
In addition, we are adding a new value called Magical Resist Rating. The formula for the rating will be the same as for PRR, with the resulting multiplier applied to all magical damage.

150 / (150 + PRR)

This new rating will apply to most non-physical damage sources including spells, elemental damage, poisons, lingering damage, and similar effects.

It is our intention that existing magical items that provide PRR would also provide MRR.



Armor and Ratings
Armor now has a base level of mitigation through these ratings. Unenchanted armor has Physical Resist Rating as part of its mitigation, and once armor has an enchantment of at least +1 value it also gains Magical Resist Rating.

The value armor depends on the class of the armor.

Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 45 MRR if armor has enchantments.

Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

In addition, characters who are proficient with shields can also use the larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex saving throw. Instead of (or in addition to) using your Reflex saving throw to mitigate the damage you can deflect the damage off your shield. This is represented by increasing your Physical and Magical Resist Ratings against those types of attacks when using a shield. Note that you gain this additional mitigation whether you make your Reflex saving throw or not.

Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks to help them compete in high level content with characters who use Evasion.

As an example, let’s take the case of a character built today to use heavy armor and tower shield and maximize PRR. Assuming a character had a PPR rating of 200 previously they would have a damage multiplier of ~ .4370 to physical damage.

While this mitigation is decent, characters built this way tend to die quickly once effects like Fireballs and dragon’s breath are flying around the battlefield.

Under the new system they would have a PRR and MRR of 260 which would translate to a damage multiplier of .4285 for both physical and magical damage. Against area of effect attacks (magic requiring a Reflex saving throw) this would be increased to 520, which translates to .2238.

In this example, when the heavily armored and shielded character is hit by dragon’s breath for 500 damage it would be reduced by his/her enchanted armor and shield down to 112. Meanwhile characters in light or no armor could use Evasion to attempt to negate the damage entirely.

Resist Rating Caps and Evasion
In addition, there are new or changed caps on certain scores based on the armor you are wearing.

Note that Medium and Heavy armor will continue to negate the Evasion feat.

In addition, some shields will negate the Evasion feat.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: None
Heavy Shield: No Evasion feat
Tower Shield: No Evasion feat

PRR and MRR Cap for armor (tentative, work in progress)

Robes or Outfit: -/100
Light Armor: -/200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap

Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional. If you see a hole in our design that allows for this please warn us!

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will offer enhancement options as alternates to the shield based enhancements. The enhancements that current require shields will be changed into a multi-selector, with an additional option that requires medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

What other changes do you plan?

~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Sev~

The DDO systems are already bloated with unnecessary complexity.

Why are you trying to fix content balance vs character builds by adding in more layers? Thats the problem with todays software, everyone wants to apply a system fix, when the obvious problems just keep expanding.

People will find their ways to workaround the new layers to maximize the benefits of each defense. I think the obvious source of balance problems is scaling, yet you are adding in more stuff that will affect scaling content into puzzling depths.

An example of broken scaling is spellpoints pools, and high level casting, high level spells were never designed to be spammed thru dungeons, they were designed as momentum abilities, to save the day once in a while.

As a means to provide more challange you also decided to give monsters infinite pool of resources, that means they will spam-cast-rotate between their top spells. There is no twich skill around evading mass spam aoe, only progression/gear granted defenses.

If i were a designer on DDO team, i would suggest to tweak the dungeons, and combat encounters. I consider this the only fix necessary. Maybe not as exciting a job as inventing new systems but would be very effective to balance characters.

Good Luck with your plans.

[Nascoe]

im just trying to understand what you mean by SR. I know how it works. fortunately in this game we don't have to worry about friendly fire too much or DDO would be a very different game.

taken from 3.5

Spell Resistance (Ex)[edit]

Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.) To determine if a spell or spell-like ability works against a creature with spell resistance, the caster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level). If the result equals or exceeds the creature’s spell resistance, the spell works normally, although the creature is still allowed a saving throw. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another.

Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps.

as you can see it says its like an Armor Class against magical attacks. sounds awfully like this brand new thing Sev is implementing with MRR, except he/she is tying it to actual armor. im not 100% on board with MRR myself and I could actually be more behind SR working as described above instead. I cant speak why Sev or whoever would be the dev would be to make SR work as it really should. it does seem to make more sense.

not all spells would work though. I don't know what is considered extraordinary or supernatural in DDO.


Interesting. But actually I can see a good argument to boost the Drow race a bit with giving them enhancements boosting their MRR :-)

[Vellrad]

As an aside, we have to consider the entire leveling experience as well as end game. Especially since many players end up cycling through the heroic levels quite a bit. Not every comment I make applies to end game.

Sev~

You can buy +10 jump 5 minute duration pots in marketplace to offset armor check penatly.
Heavy armored characters usually pump lots into STR, and if you want to get higher jump you can simply equip item.
But OK, in some cases heavy armor can lower jump score.

But swim?

No way.

There is no place where you are beign hit while swimming, so you can simply take off armor and put it again as you're going to emerge.
It takes time?
Yes, but swimming long lenghts naked and putting armor back on is faster than swimming armored.

[lyrecono]

Well placed answer

Sev~

i'm interested to see what these p/mrr changes will bring (and when)
I really hope the agro management will grow alongside of the changes.
A tank should't be a rez scroll dispenser (nigh useless last man standing issues)
Makes me curious what kind of "tank " a (triple) completionist could build with a pali(or fighter)5 and 15 levels of fvs(or cleric), using dots&aoe spells to maintain agro alongside it's melee attacks.



Thanks for the update Sev

[LightBear]

Marching order, thread, reach and attacks of opportunities.

[Bingobong]

Here's why that's an issue, 300PRR/MRR is probably around where players will be able to get which will be 33% damage taken

How are players getting 300 PRR?

[Desonde]

Heavy armor tank can use incorp, dodge at a lesster %, blind, displace and tactical movement just the same as your light armor guy. As someone that has both, the light armor takes much more of a beating due to less ac, less prr. You can't do epic elites and stand toe to to against anything in light armor now as the melee tear you up. the trade off is you have evasion for the spell damage which is getting nerf'd in our favor but mainly only for heavy armor tanks which can already today handle the melee damage with cocoon and asorb, bladeforge healing, etc. try a tempest ranger vs a starward defender. the tempest ranger gets torn up. adding double mrr with a shield negates even more to the heavy armor build. with 73% mrr damage mitigation, any toon can tank the storm reaver in heavy armor/shield on hard with no other absorb items with some self healing. what more do you need? this is with no character build sacrifices. no levels in a class that adds minimal benefit. Monks will have some competition for king tank.

light armor already doesn't always take spell damage for most reflex items with evasion. they will take a little less but I don't see any comparable prr on light armor that i see on a stawart defender or DOS.

Ok, but what's the comparability to a Light Armored Stalwart/Sacred Defender vs a Heavy Armored one (-18 PRR or >2% [at most 1 dmg for every 50 points base damage])?

Sure under the new system they'd have to drop down to a smaller shield and reduce their PRR/MRR another few points if they want to keep evasion, but once they reach a certain threshold does that sacrifice equal the gains of evasion?

The whole reason I changed my heavy armored character toon to light armor was because despite saving 95% of the reflex saves there were a few situations when the constant spam of half damage was too much.

[Desonde]

How are players getting 300 PRR?

Future tense; 45 from heavy armor, 15 from tower shield, 15 from shield feats, BaB bonus (24->30+6), Sacred Defender 75 (or 50?), 30 from items, 20 from LD Improved Expertise, 15 from Legendary Shield Mastery, 20 from Heed No Pain, 9 PDK past lives, 27 Divine past lives = 276-307. Upper limits yes, but possible especially with the rhetoric that more is better.

[Psiandron]

Heavy armor tank can use incorp, dodge at a lesster %, blind, displace and tactical movement just the same as your light armor guy. As someone that has both, the light armor takes much more of a beating due to less ac, less prr. You can't do epic elites and stand toe to to against anything in light armor now as the melee tear you up. the trade off is you have evasion for the spell damage which is getting nerf'd in our favor but mainly only for heavy armor tanks which can already today handle the melee damage with cocoon and asorb, bladeforge healing, etc. try a tempest ranger vs a starward defender. the tempest ranger gets torn up. adding double mrr with a shield negates even more to the heavy armor build. with 73% mrr damage mitigation, any toon can tank the storm reaver in heavy armor/shield on hard with no other absorb items with some self healing. what more do you need? this is with no character build sacrifices. no levels in a class that adds minimal benefit. Monks will have some competition for king tank.

light armor already doesn't always take spell damage for most reflex items with evasion. they will take a little less but I don't see any comparable prr on light armor that i see on a stawart defender or DOS.


So, am I to take it that your contention is that heavy armor wearers are better off than light armor wearers with evasion at this point in time, or did I misunderstand your post?

[mikarddo]

Interesting idea.

However, if evasion characters are to keep their "thing" and heavy armor w/ shield is to get their "thing" then where does that leave the builds with neither? If this change goes in then future contend will further assume alot of migitation/avoidance of spell damage, in particular reflex bases, making it even further unrealistic to survive with a guild without a major "thing".

Why not instead go that extra mile and start to actually use a mix of fort, will and reflex saves mixed in with no-save damage, melee damage, actual archer damage etc, so that the game relies less on not taking reflex damage and more on a balanced approach where all things matter?

[ThomasHunter]

~ One handed fighting feats will not work with shields. We prefer a design that keeps the various fighting styles pure. On the other hand, if the DPS tree makes shield bashes hit as hard as we are imagining you will want the increased chance to shield bash from the shield feats. We just have to make sure that the increased shield bashes don't work while blocking because, let's face it a strategy where all you do is hold block and click for big shield bashes would really not be fun.

Sev~

I'm not sure what this means. I feel both enlightened and confused at the implication of what this means. I thought that the only way to shield bash was to hold shift then swing (right-click for me). Can this be done in "regular" melee?

What does this statement really mean?

[MangLord]

~ PRR is already in the game. It is an existing system that we are building on. Armor already gives PRR. The current formula is 6 + BAB for Heavy, 4 + (BAB / 1.5) for medium, and 2 + (BAB / 2.0) for light. This is in place on live. We are building on this existing system. Yes we are adding MRR, but it's just the magic equivalent

~ You don't need to know the math to master this system. More PRR and MRR is always good, and the first point of PRR provides just as much mitigation (as a percent) as the 200th point. All your girlfriend really needs to know if playing a character in medium or heavy armor is that PRR and MRR are good. She doesn't have to worry about hitting caps that make further points useless. She doesn't have to worry about stacking a specific saving throw to make her mitigation work. She just needs to know, basically, that more PRR is better.

~ None of the other systems you talk about work for what we want. A hard capped system won't scale at all with new gear which means we don't have anywhere to grow the game. The armor class system fixing you propose just re-introduces a binary (thus spikey) mitigation. Plus, if we ever fixed AC and players started missing creatures a lot I think the game would be much less fun.

~ If someone really wants to tank they will be looking for a smoother, more predictable damage mitigation.

Sev~

I see your point, but the system needs to be built upon a s/m/l/xl scale, so that if a given player doesn't happen to take every feat for maximum tankage, they can be at least viable to pinch-hit the role. Or, what if my dwarf axe kensei needs to fill a tanking role in a raid and switch to a shield over a greataxe? If a healer has to be married to me, then I'm not doing anyone any good. My heavy armor and a tower shield should apply some solid benefit so that a healer can turn around and heal other people, even though I don't specialize in it. A paladin that does specialize should be able to withstand heavy abuse for a good minute or two while the party deals with other problems and can support them later. That's the point of a tank. I want to be able to build a defender and have it live up to its billing at epic levels. Scale feat bonuses to level, add a line of sword and shield feats, whatever. Defense needs a serious jolt, but it should apply at a generous enough level that characters that don't specialize only in defense can maintain enough protection to be worthwhile. Otherwise, there is no point in making a pure kensei greatweapon fighter that wears heavy armor if, without a shield, their defense is going to be terrible. It just maintains the status quo of monk levels and robes. Given the build freedom in DDO, pinch tanking should be something viable enough for kensei to want to keep a shield around for.

Given that barbarians are limited to medium armor, can't cast when raged, and tend to use greatweapons, are there any plans to make the class more survivable in the future? Not to derail the conversation, just wondering if any plans were on the drawing board.

The idea that you guys are ok with existing shield feats is kinda frightening. Shield bashing is garbage. The damage is bad, the crit range is bad, and it seems to be severely limited in how often you can actually get a bash. I've never noticed much benefit from it in terms of damage output. An extra 20-30pts here or there, which might as well be 0 after level 15. Now if it added a +5-10% chance to knock an enemy prone or stun them, you'd be cooking with some gas. No one has ever died from a little extra CC.
Shield deflection is possibly even worse, and likely the worst possible way to spend a feat in DDO. I'm hardly going to stand there and turtle up behind my shield for less than a 50/50 chance (at best) to ignore elemental damage, when running up to a caster and attacking it will likely prevent far more spells being thrown at me overall. With some heavy fire resistance, an absorption item and the feat, I suppose it might make some difference in Thunder Peak, but you're still likely to die from other incoming damage sources.

[Scrabbler]

I will look into why the Dodge cap might be lower for Mithral Body. I don't know off hand why this was done or what it is balanced against.
For the record, Mithral Body was balanced against the starting gold of a level 1 PC in D&D 3.5, which was too little to afford a masterwork mithral chainshirt.

[bennyson]

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will offer enhancement options as alternates to the shield based enhancements. The enhancements that current require shields will be changed into a multi-selector, with an additional option that requires medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

Sev~

Considering this, here is a feat that exists in 3.5! (from HERE: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_and_Shield_Offensive_Harmony_%283.5e_Feat%2 9)

Weapon and Shield Offensive Harmony

"When using a melee weapon and shield with proficiency, you can attack with both as if you had the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. In addition, any successful attack with your shield inflicts +1 damage, or grants an additional +2 bonus to your Strength check for a special combat maneuver requiring one."

This feat is the real Sword & Board combat style feat.

also, I think with just a little DDO dev magic, this can make an excellent line of feats, specifically for fighting with a one-handed weapon and shield.

[lyrecono]

Considering this, here is a feat that exists in 3.5! (from HERE: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_and_Shield_Offensive_Harmony_%283.5e_Feat%2 9)

Weapon and Shield Offensive Harmony

"When using a melee weapon and shield with proficiency, you can attack with both as if you had the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. In addition, any successful attack with your shield inflicts +1 damage, or grants an additional +2 bonus to your Strength check for a special combat maneuver requiring one."

This feat is the real Sword & Board combat style feat.

also, I think with just a little DDO dev magic, this can make an excellent line of feats, specifically for fighting with a one-handed weapon and shield.

i like the idea of a good shield feat line.
I would like to see greensteel, thunderforged, and gianthold(matching dragonscale) shields added to the game (hint, hint sev...)

[grandeibra]

Some very reasonable suggestions in OP imho.

However I really feel this assertion in OP is a problem in itself:
characters who wear no armor or light armor and use Evasion. These characters can kite and use magic to do fairly well in our contentDoes this mean only naked/light can/should kite?

Does it mean naked/light characters SHOULD kite.

For me (and one of my two mains is a ranged) the focus on kiting as damage mitigation in the past few years in DDO is horrible for gameplay. It makes for boring group dynamics.

I'm all for heavy armored toons getting some more mitigation but I really hope Turbine doesn't focus even more on assuming nekkid/light characters should all run around benny Hill style. on epic elite.

[PermaBanned]

Some very reasonable suggestions in OP imho.

However I really feel this assertion in OP is a problem in itself: Does this mean only naked/light can/should kite?

Does it mean naked/light characters SHOULD kite.

For me (and one of my two mains is a ranged) the focus on kiting as damage mitigation in the past few years in DDO is horrible for gameplay. It makes for boring group dynamics.

I'm all for heavy armored toons getting some more mitigation but I really hope Turbine doesn't focus even more on assuming nekkid/light characters should all run around benny Hill style. on epic elite.

IMO, regardless of armor status the question of "to kite or not to kite" should be answered by the character's primary combat style:

• If melee, kiting doesn't really make sense.

• If ranged or casting, standing toe to toe doesn't really make sense.

I highly doubt that the quote you referenced was suggesting that (for example) melee oriented monks (nekkid) or swashbucklers (light) should be kiting. On the other hand, casters and ranged characters traditionally prefer to do their thing from a distance - which generally involves kiting if you're not CCing, Pinning, perching or something. I mean, how many bow users typically want to shoot things from within a sword's reach? (I realize that might be a bit too RPGish for some people's taste).

[Ausdoerrt]

Considering this, here is a feat that exists in 3.5! (from HERE: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_and_Shield_Offensive_Harmony_%283.5e_Feat%2 9)

Weapon and Shield Offensive Harmony

"When using a melee weapon and shield with proficiency, you can attack with both as if you had the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. In addition, any successful attack with your shield inflicts +1 damage, or grants an additional +2 bonus to your Strength check for a special combat maneuver requiring one."

This feat is the real Sword & Board combat style feat.

also, I think with just a little DDO dev magic, this can make an excellent line of feats, specifically for fighting with a one-handed weapon and shield.

This is very nice, I wish they would include this in the game.

[MangLord]

Are there any plans towards allowing us to mitigate poison and/or light damage in any way? Light damage is generally a non-issue unless you're playing a pale master, but some poison traps are beastly at level. I don't know if its an oversight, but I haven't found a way to absorb poison damage aside from temporary HP, a substantial red bar and a dose of good luck. Unless you're warforged or undead, and you can just stroll right through, of course.

[MangLord]

Considering this, here is a feat that exists in 3.5! (from HERE: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_and_Shield_Offensive_Harmony_%283.5e_Feat%2 9)

Weapon and Shield Offensive Harmony

"When using a melee weapon and shield with proficiency, you can attack with both as if you had the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. In addition, any successful attack with your shield inflicts +1 damage, or grants an additional +2 bonus to your Strength check for a special combat maneuver requiring one."

This feat is the real Sword & Board combat style feat.

also, I think with just a little DDO dev magic, this can make an excellent line of feats, specifically for fighting with a one-handed weapon and shield.

I like it, but it would have to be injected with plenty of PEDs to scale to the current power level of DDO. +1 damage is great in Harbor quests, but would definitely have to increase in power like Divine Favor spell or something similar. An extra +1 every three levels or so might be nice. +9 to bashing damage at level 27 doesn't seem outrageous. Shield bashing mechanics would have to be reworked to make this useful, too. Getting a little extra bash damage every few seconds currently doesn't make much difference, in my opinion. It falls far short of the benefit you get from TWF, THF and SWF feat lines, at least. Just taking the first TWF feat dramatically increases your offhand proc chance, so I'd expect a good SnB feat line would have to perform similarly. Maybe not quite as heavy on DPS as TWF, but if there were solid defensive benefits and a respectable level of damage output, I could see it being popular.

Adding bonuses to tactical feats would be very appealing. Any boost to Stunning Blow or Trip is a good thing.

Does Improved Crit: Bludgeon apply to shields and bashing? I've always wondered about this.

[lyrecono]

Some very reasonable suggestions in OP imho.

However I really feel this assertion in OP is a problem in itself: Does this mean only naked/light can/should kite?

Does it mean naked/light characters SHOULD kite.

For me (and one of my two mains is a ranged) the focus on kiting as damage mitigation in the past few years in DDO is horrible for gameplay. It makes for boring group dynamics.

I'm all for heavy armored toons getting some more mitigation but I really hope Turbine doesn't focus even more on assuming nekkid/light characters should all run around benny Hill style. on epic elite.

i think it means that light/no armor toons (besides monks) should be the first choice to tank to begin with. Most light/no armor toons(again besides monks) have either ranged attacks or should be attacking in the side/back(while the heavy armor guy holds agro) to compensate for the lack of defenses. just like pnp, just like a real life sensible light armored combatant.

[bennyson]

Shield bashing mechanics would have to be reworked to make this useful, too. Getting a little extra bash damage every few seconds currently doesn't make much difference, in my opinion.

The real problem, to me, is that the auto-bashing doesn't happen enough during a attack chain to be noticeable or to make any difference.

Two Weapon Fighting line gives you a flat 80% chance to attack with your off-hand weapon (unless your a Tempest Ranger, which is a full-blown 100%)

The maximum chance to bash with any shield is 35% for Stalwart Fighters who train the Improved Shield Bash feat.

Now when you throw in the "rare" shields (the ones with the enchantment that gives you a chance to auto-bash) it goes up to 55% for Stalwarts.

Everyone else gets 20 - 40%.

[Seikojin]

or an actual S&B line of feats.

Currently there is one: shield mastery and single weapon fighting. The only way to maximize their use is with splash of bard and using a buckler.


Some corrections.

~ If the Bladeforged gets 45 PRR (s)he is using Admantite plating which counts as heavy armor and couldn't get Evasion. Mithral plating provides 15 PRR and can use Evasion.

~ I think you missed the fact that large or tower shields will double MRR versus damaging attacks that allow a Reflex save. So that 200 MRR will turn to 400 against anything that Evasion works against. That's ~73% mitigation, plus the heavy armor character can still possibly make a saving throw for half damage. While the absolute mitigation might not be as good the damage input will be much less spikey making these characters easier to heal in a frenetic battle, especially at the highest levels where two failed reflex saving throws might mean death.

~ The fact that characters designed as tanks can't hold agro is on our list. While we don't want to turn DDO into a strict trinity game (we like that you don't have to necessarily play towards that paradigm) we also don't want tanks to be useless either.

~ One handed fighting feats will not work with shields. We prefer a design that keeps the various fighting styles pure. On the other hand, if the DPS tree makes shield bashes hit as hard as we are imagining you will want the increased chance to shield bash from the shield feats. We just have to make sure that the increased shield bashes don't work while blocking because, let's face it a strategy where all you do is hold block and click for big shield bashes would really not be fun.

Sev~

Bolded the scarey. Why not have a shield bypass for swf in the pre's that could gain the benefit from swf the most: fighters and paladins. I mean you can have a swf bypass that includes utlity for shield offhand use. Bashes, auto-deflects, etc. No reason not to outside of what dps you gain from it; which bards already get with swashbuckling.

[LuKaSu]

Some people asked about Warforged and Bladeforged.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Mithral Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Light Armor. They can have Evasion and Improved Evasion. They gain 15 PRR and MRR like the light armors will provide.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Admantite Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Heavy Armor. They cannot use Evasion or Improved Evasion. They gain 45 PRR and MRR.

Sev~

Sorry to go back several pages, but what about WF Melee Artificers? Unless it's been recently changed, WF can't get PRR without Heavy Armor proficiency, and Heavy Armor proficiency isn't on selectable WF feats list. It seems to me that (at minimum), WF should be able to select Heavy Armor, so they can get the PRR (and now the MRR) from Adamantine plating. Alternatively, it would seem just fine to me if Heavy Armor proficiency was auto-granted with Adamantine Body Plating, since it already costs a feat for the plating in the first place.

[lyrecono]

Sorry to go back several pages, but what about WF Melee Artificers? Unless it's been recently changed, WF can't get PRR without Heavy Armor proficiency, and Heavy Armor proficiency isn't on selectable WF feats list. It seems to me that (at minimum), WF should be able to select Heavy Armor, so they can get the PRR (and now the MRR) from Adamantine plating. Alternatively, it would seem just fine to me if Heavy Armor proficiency was auto-granted with Adamantine Body Plating, since it already costs a feat for the plating in the first place.

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?
if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?
Whats stopping you from picking the feat as a regular feat or multiclassing, assuming it doesn't interfere with spell casting, taking the feat seems like a decent trade off.
From what i understood, the changes were made for (pali/fighter)"tanks", a melee artificer doesn't look to be designed like a frontline melee to me (d6 and all), though they could be good melee's like rogues or rangers. (also light armored).

[oradafu]

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?
if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?
Whats stopping you from picking the feat as a regular feat or multiclassing, assuming it doesn't interfere with spell casting, taking the feat seems like a decent trade off.
From what i understood, the changes were made for (pali/fighter)"tanks", a melee artificer doesn't look to be designed like a frontline melee to me (d6 and all), though they could be good melee's like rogues or rangers. (also light armored).

This is a false argument for me.

Gaining the WF body feats should come with all the bonuses and penalties that the type of armor that it represents has, including Proficiency. It's a feat slot that is unnecessarily taking a slot for a race that other races aren't penalized with.

Getting Adamantine Body automatically prevents Evasion from working, so the argument that it will be abused that way is not an issue. That's not your argument, but it is one that other players have brought up before.

The WF Body really should be a freebie feat at creation, and it would alleviate the current feat penalty that players get. Another route would be to include an enhancement in the WF tree that allows WF to gain armor proficiency, as found in the Eldritch Knight trees. Heck, it could be merged with Inscribed Armor and the enhancement cost could be raised to 2 AP instead of 1 AP and it'd basically duplicate the Armor Proficiency enhancements in the Eldritch Knight trees (which I believe the spell failure in those enhancements don't work with docents anyway).

[lyrecono]

the wf body costing a feat is a remnant of the PnP where the feat outbalanced the benefits of not having to take of armor, lower armor pen, etc
I agree it not making much sense in the DDO.
The proficiency however should be something earned, you need training to be able to use armor.
Classes that actually needed armor got the proficiency they needed. If you want the proficiency, work for it.
Everybody can don a platemail, just like any wf can select adam. body. however, all those other races need to get proficient with it, just like the wf/bladeforged.
Don't expect the dev's to change the game because every light melee wants the prr/mrr that was designed for "real tanks".

[MangLord]

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?
if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?
Whats stopping you from picking the feat as a regular feat or multiclassing, assuming it doesn't interfere with spell casting, taking the feat seems like a decent trade off.
From what i understood, the changes were made for (pali/fighter)"tanks", a melee artificer doesn't look to be designed like a frontline melee to me (d6 and all), though they could be good melee's like rogues or rangers. (also light armored).

For a high level warforged arty, the d6 hp hardly matters when you can pop a quickened reconstruct whenever you like. I've never tried a fleshie artificer, but I imagine the construct nature feat (or whatever they call it) allows you to self heal pretty well. Paladins are very self sufficient until their LoH run out, but fighters really rely on a beefy HP bar with only crummy silver flame pots for emergencies.

Honestly, I think quick, strong self healing is worth a lot more for tanking than high AC and the more traditional tanking traits. My lightly armored ranger is great for tanking a dragon in Thunder Peak until he eventually rolls a 1 on his reflex save. Cocoon and Energy Sheath allow me to survive a few bad rolls but it always catches up to me eventually, usually when the dragon is around 50% health and I start to deal with several incoming damage sources from fresh mobs.

[Ausdoerrt]

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?

Last I checked, Arti infusions didn't suffer from ASF. So an arti can just grab the proficiency feat and enjoy the bonuses.


if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?

Not really, I'd say spending a feat slot on a body feat is equivalent to spending a feat slot on an armor proficiency. In fact, WF are already disadvantaged because (correct me if I'm wrong) taking level in a class, which auto-grants heavy armor proficiency doesn't give WF the equivalent body feat.

[LuKaSu]

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?
if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?
Whats stopping you from picking the feat as a regular feat or multiclassing, assuming it doesn't interfere with spell casting, taking the feat seems like a decent trade off.
From what i understood, the changes were made for (pali/fighter)"tanks", a melee artificer doesn't look to be designed like a frontline melee to me (d6 and all), though they could be good melee's like rogues or rangers. (also light armored).

The "get proficiency with body feat" thing was wishful thinking. I still think it's a good idea, but I don't expect they will implement it. I'd sure like them to, but it wasn't my main issue. The part I was trying to focus on is that (again, unless they've changed it recently) you can't take an armor proficiency feat on a WF. At all. Adamantine body is an Arty selectable feat, but they can't get the PRR from it, because they don't have proficiency for heavy armor, nor the ability to take it.

[Bingobong]

Armor and Ratings
Armor now has a base level of mitigation through these ratings. Unenchanted armor has Physical Resist Rating as part of its mitigation, and once armor has an enchantment of at least +1 value it also gains Magical Resist Rating.

The value armor depends on the class of the armor.

Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 45 MRR if armor has enchantments.

<skip>

Under the new system they would have a PRR and MRR of 260 which would translate to a damage multiplier of .4285 for both physical and magical damage. Against area of effect attacks (magic requiring a Reflex saving throw) this would be increased to 520, which translates to .2238.



I think you have a good strategy for bringing heavy armor back into usefulness and balancing it against evasion light armor wearers. However, I think the difference in PRR listed here needs to increase to make it actually effective. The difference between heavy vs light is only 30, which is very minor compared to the power of evasion.

The example you gave is based around shield bearers. For a heavy armor wearer without shields, their gains is actually very minor.

Somebody did a breakdown of what it takes to get around 300 PRR :

Future tense; 45 from heavy armor, 15 from tower shield, 15 from shield feats, BaB bonus (24->30+6), Sacred Defender 75 (or 50?), 30 from items, 20 from LD Improved Expertise, 15 from Legendary Shield Mastery, 20 from Heed No Pain, 9 PDK past lives, 27 Divine past lives = 276-307. Upper limits yes, but possible especially with the rhetoric that more is better.


However, the above assumes somebody with at least 6 paladin levels using shields and a ton of past lives.

For a non-paly 1st lifer wearing heavy armor and no shield, we end up with :
45 from heavy armor
BaB bonus (24->30+6) from heavy armor
30 from items
20 from LD Improved Combat Expertise <-- requires twisting from ED + combat expertise feat
20 from Sentinel core stance
-----
145-151
Damage multiplier = 150 / (150 + 151) = 0.50

An equivalent light armor evasionist will have :
15 from light armor
BaB bonus (24->30+2) from light armor
30 from items
20 from LD Improved Combat Expertise <-- requires twisting from ED + combat expertise feat
20 from Sentinel core stance
-----
111-117.
Damage multiplier = 150 / (150 + 117) = 0.56

Difference is not really that big.
When it comes to evadable damage, the heavy armor without shield will not get any bonus defense.

I would suggest increasing the armor PRR bonuses to make heavy armor truly useful without relying on a shield. A mere 30 increase in PRR (over light armor) is not enough.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

TLDR version : Difference in PRR between light armor and heavy armor is too small. For anyone not using a shield, light armor evasion build is still the way to go for survivability and heavy armor still wont make the cut. Please consider increasing difference.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Bingobong]

For a non-paly 1st lifer wearing heavy armor and no shield, we end up with :


Just wanted to add that the reason I left out those past lives is because very few people will have access to so many of them. If they were included in the examples, it would actually make the difference in the resulting damage multiplier between heavy and light armor even smaller (and still not hit the light armor PRR cap).

[poptolev]

The problem (if you can call it that) as far as I can tell is that most of the PRR doesn't actually come from your armor-choice.

[Kaiserkreuz]

Wow took devs very long enough to notice why the rampant number of multi class splash that got evasion and can self sustain specially in high lvl to epic dungeons. Aside from the sarcastic remark.

Wonder if this is late or not; In the PnP version AC for classes that use light or no armor at all means the attacked miss you or you we're able to dodge it while AC for classes that uses medium and heavy armor means the attack wasn't able to penetrate your armor or your armor blocked it. The problem begins on how the definition of AC transitioned from the PnP version to the Online version.

Light armor and robe users can not only gain high AC with ease but also have high dodge rating plus most of them got evasion which is very much needed on high lvl to epic content considering how much damage spells and traps do at those lvls. Plus caster mobs and bosses just spam spell due to the fact they got unlimited supply of spell points.

Medium and Heavy armor users need to sacrifice their dps just to gain high AC, PRR rating doesn't do much or anything at all specially in EE content and much more likely to take heavy amount of damage from spells.

So I thing increasing the damage and spell mitigation that medium and heavy armor does is somehow a feasible solution on the classes which use them. Light and no armor users should be like, "You can dodge damage and evade spells with ease but if ever you get damage expect them to hurt like hell." While medium or heavy armor users to be sturdy able to shrug off punishment with the mettle of their steel.

As for the improvement of sword in shield style in terms of dps should be ok. Adding another feat would be ok for a fighter that has numerous number of extra feat but how about those classes that are very much feat starved. I think they should improve the shield feats like;

Improve Shield bash: increasing the proc rate of a shield bash by 30-40% from 20% and give it a % chance to stun an enemy.
Shield Mastery and Improve Shield Mastery: increasing proc rate of a shield bash by 10-20% and increases % stun chance.

[Thar]

If anyone feels they can't continue to play a current-day Bard with the changes proposed, what are you losing that you feel you still need? The bard that you are playing today: What's going away that will break your build? We've already reversed some tentative cuts due to players asking us to keep those abilities.

From the bard discussion...

What will break my build with the armor changes? 73% spell mitigation is more beneficial than evasion so my two splash levels for evasion are for naught and preventing me from getting to the pally capstone. If I do keep my current build, then my AC/PRR/MRR will be lower due to the shield change (which are already substancially lower than a heavy armor tank) AND I highly doubt we will see adequate (ie useful) light shields in the game at all levels.

Shields increasing the modifier are going to make this overpowered and cheap for non tanks to get 73% mitigation. I might as well take my cleric, throw intim items on and tank with my healbot.

What does my tank need? (besides the heavy shield w/evasion to be left alone) I need the tanking tree to be reasonably prices in enhancement points. I need some additional dps, hategen and/or guard options to keep agro. I need a purpose in non raids besides trying to keep up with the dps and maybe intim one off them and hit a few times before they kill it. I need more named armors in the end game to have some options.

I would take a page from city of heros tanks. They were buffed after launch to do automatic hategen on hits as otherwise they couldn't hold mobs attentions after a blast or dps aoe attack. We don't need it so things never can be pulled away, but some increased hate is needed by tanks. (and not dev hate... haha)

[Bingobong]

The problem (if you can call it that) as far as I can tell is that most of the PRR doesn't actually come from your armor-choice.

That's what I was saying, that there is little benefit in going from light to heavy armor because very little additonal PRR is coming from the armor itself compared to the total achievable. However, the design itself works, it's just the number used (the increase in PRR) isn't significant enough.

Considering this was the problem they were trying to address, the fact that armor choice still have a minor overall effect is an issue :


The characters that seem to be falling behind are the heavily armored characters.


Shield bearers gain significantly, but armor choice itself has little overall impact.

[Bingobong]

Just thought of another way to make armor choice (eg. heavy vs light) matter more.



Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks to help them compete in high level content with characters who use Evasion.


Right now all additional mitigation is weighted on the shield with no additional mitigation coming from heavier armor in spite of the stated "and/or" objective. I suggest splitting it so that armor also gets part of the bonus :

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 1.5
Tower Shield: 1.5

Robes or Outfits: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Armor: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Medium Armor: 1.5
Heavy Armor: 1.5

[lyrecono]

The 45 prr from heavy armor is added (i assume) to the 6+bab prr already in place, why would you want to draw m/prr away from shield to armor?
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of buffing s&b tanks, the reason the OP started the thread?
assuming a lv 1 fighter in plate/tower shield, thats 51 prr from plate and 15 from shield, 102 and 30 vs reflex based damage,
Assuming a lv 1 fighter in plate% great axe thats 51 prr/mrr all the time.
At higher levels i can see these numbers change somewhat, nothing seems to warrant a shift away from the shield to the armor though.

Incidentally, are there many melee hits that require a reflex save where having double your prr would mater?


Last I checked, Arti infusions didn't suffer from ASF. So an arti can just grab the proficiency feat and enjoy the bonuses.

Not really, I'd say spending a feat slot on a body feat is equivalent to spending a feat slot on an armor proficiency. In fact, WF are already disadvantaged because (correct me if I'm wrong) taking level in a class, which auto-grants heavy armor proficiency doesn't give WF the equivalent body feat.

Thank you, its been a while since i've been on my arty.
They do suffer arcane spell failure due to armor while using arcane based scrolls.(invis, recon etc)
if you want to melee on a arty (a support /crafter/ranged toon, not designed for melee) why not multi class to a real melee class?
With these changes to help sword and board& platemail wearing toons, it looks like every non tank comes out of the woodwork in hopes of getting buffed too.


The "get proficiency with body feat" thing was wishful thinking. I still think it's a good idea, but I don't expect they will implement it. I'd sure like them to, but it wasn't my main issue. The part I was trying to focus on is that (again, unless they've changed it recently) you can't take an armor proficiency feat on a WF. At all. Adamantine body is an Arty selectable feat, but they can't get the PRR from it, because they don't have proficiency for heavy armor, nor the ability to take it.

Why can't you take heavy armor prof? shouldn't you be able to pick it as a regular feat at lv 1/3/5/9/etc if not bug report it
If you're referring to the artificer free feats list, it stands to reason: being in the thick of melee combat is not a trait usually connected with artificers, hence heavy armor prof isn't on the arty free feat list. Adam body is there for the multiclassers (normaly in PnP, boddy feats were lv 1 only, this allowed wf arties to "remold"themselves later in their career).

[Bingobong]

The 45 prr from heavy armor is added (i assume) to the 6+bab prr already in place, why would you want to draw m/prr away from shield to armor?
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of buffing s&b tanks, the reason the OP started the thread?.

I already addressed the bab+6 in my first post :
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443353-Armor-and-Mitigation-Changes?p=5365849&viewfull=1#post5365849

The purpose of the thread is to reward heavily armored characters, not just S&B tanks :


The characters that seem to be falling behind are the heavily armored characters.


My proposal takes nothing away from S&B tanks, since an S&B tank will be wearing medium/heavy armor anyways and still end up with a net bonus of 2.0.

[lyrecono]

jmy bad, i quoted the wrong post, it should have been binbongs previous post.

I agree, the m/prr from armor is very little in comparison to the (lager)shields.
It is also still out of ballance

recalculation; 45 from heavy armor, 15 from tower shield, 15 from shield feats, BaB bonus 31(25 at lv 30), Sacred Defender 50(75 is most likely not wai), 30 from items, 15 from Legendary Shield Mastery, 20 from Heed No Pain, 9 PDK past lives, 27 Divine past lives = . 257 m/prr and 515
(enough problems with keeping agro, i'm staying away from Combat expertise and the ED improved combat expertise), it's a 2.5 and 5% difference.
assuming i did my math corectly:
this means i will take: 37% damage from melee magic and 23% damage from reflex based damage.
This with a heavy feat/enh ed investment.
Does this work on trap damage?
It looks better for tanks then a evasion toon or am i missing something?

the fighter is down 25 m/prr, 50 if the enhancement isn't broken.
Sev, will this be addressed too?

One of its 6th tier abilities gives 5/10/15 prr, but currently stacks with eacother.
The fighter lacks this 6th tier ability and currently falls behind 50prr.

[MangLord]

I'm not much of a defensive player. I tend to favor DPS melee classes, and I'd really like to play my dwarf greataxe kensei more. How much will a suit of plate benefit me without a shield? From the way it looks, sword and shield builds will benefit greatly from the proposed changes, but where does that leave THF styles? I think it's totally reasonable for heavily armored shield users to have the absolute best defensive capabilities, but I'm curious as to where other armored warriors, like fighters and barbarians choosing to use greatweapons will fall into the mix? I don't have evasion, and rely only on a suit of plate armor and buffs, so will that style of play become a worst case scenario for survivability?

It looks like a good deal of defensive investment in terms of gear needs to be made in order to have a good PRR, so will a heavily armored DPS melee continue to be a mana sink at high difficulties? I guess if tanking becomes a more valuable asset to the overall party, I'll get hit less overall with the tank drawing all the attention, and I can clean up around him/her without having to deal with all the aggro myself, but that's an ideal situation.

[lyrecono]

sure manglord, here goes:

assuming lv 30:
platemail kensai lv 20 with greataxe, 45 from armor, 31 from bab, 30 from item (deathwyrm bracer atm) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dumathoin%27s_Bracers), thats a whoppin 106 m/prr, you take only 59% damage. if you switch to a shield&D-axe when things go south, you get 121 m/prr, you take 55% melee&spell damage and 38% damage from reflex based spells.

if you add in past lives (total of 36) and the SwD defensive stance(25)
remember that the stance does not require a shield at that tier but will cancel out the rage spell, lowering your "throw your weight around"dps

platemail kensai lv 20 with greataxe, 45 from armor, 31 from bab, 30 from item, 36 pastlives, 25 stance, thats a 147 m/prr, you take only 51% damage. if you switch to a shield&D-axe , you get 162 m/prr, you take 48% melee&spell damage and 32% damage from reflex based spells.

These calculations assumed that you didn't take any prr related shieldfeats.

[lyrecono]

as for barbarians:

Breastplate barbarian lv 20 with greataxe, 30 from armor,21 from bab, 30 from item, thats a 81 m/prr, you take 65% damage. if you switch to a (large)shield&D-axe , you get 91 m/prr, you take 62% melee&spell damage and 45% damage from reflex based spells.

i'm aware that 2 enhancements give 4 and 3 prr, i found them so low that i left them out.

with the 36 prr pastlives:
Breastplate barbarian lv 20 with greataxe, 30 from armor,21 from bab, 30 from item, 36 pl thats a 117 m/prr, you take 56% damage. if you switch to a (large)shield&D-axe , you get 127 m/prr, you take 54% melee&spell damage and 37% damage from reflex based spells.
with these numbers, barbarians are still stuck in limbo.

As a side note, you can see the pastlives making an effect here, adding 9% damage absorption for medium and 8% for heavy armor.
the heavy tank looses out on pastlives the more prr you add

[Ausdoerrt]

remember that the stance does not require a shield at that tier but will cancel out the rage spell, lowering your "throw your weight around"dps

Though if you invest a bit into the tree, you can get a +6 CON while in stance at T3, which more than compensates for lack of rage.

[Free2Pay]

At the end of the day, the acid test is whether a Fighter in full plate is still left standing in Elite Enter the Kobold and Elite A New Invasion (with no healing) in heroic, and the new raids (without a dedicated healer) in Epic Elite. Then we can really see if heavy armor close range melee playstyle is just as viable against a monk or some sort of blue bar Shiradi kiting playstyle that most players have gravitated to.


The heavier the armor, the more fortification bonus it should have against criticals and sneak attacks. It should have up to 7-6 mod effects on heavy, 6-5 on medium and the current 5-4 on light and clothes. Most class that has evasion tend to have a higher natural reflex saves in light armor whereas a fighter splashing for evasion not only gives up heavy armor but need to put in more effort to get working reflex save for the evasion. It's no secret that current end game favor taking no damage entirely through evasion or kiting. Even taking consistent smaller damage is unlikely to improve a fighter's predicament in raid compared to playstyle that takes none and yet still do outrageous cc and dps through Shiradi.

Some player expressed concern that buffing armor to make it a viable alternative to evasion should come with a cost. Let's just be clear that armor not providing better protection than evasion, is a result of a basic functionality the fighter class being broken for so long that no one remember why evasion has always been superior. Armor should always offer better protection, not the other way round. Fact is the current state of the game armor don't really offer any real protection, on the opposite it tends to get the player killed very fast.

[lyrecono]

Though if you invest a bit into the tree, you can get a +6 CON while in stance at T3, which more than compensates for lack of rage.

true, but he asked for a dwarven kensai great axe user, those are enhancemnt heavy
assuming all 3 tier 5's in the upper right: that's 27 dwarven enhancements, 41 kensai enhancements, leaving 12 for stalwart defender.
in order to pick up defencive stance you need to spend 11 points, leaving 1 for con.
the problem of this it that Manglord explicitly stated not wanting to wield a shield, a requirement for the constitution bonus.
From all the classes, the fighter could pull of the feat requirements to do both styles: e.g. greataxe and dwarven axe&shield, for the "oops"we're screwed moments.

[Ausdoerrt]

true, but he asked for a dwarven kensai great axe user, those are enhancemnt heavy
assuming all 3 tier 5's in the upper right: that's 27 dwarven enhancements, 41 kensai enhancements, leaving 12 for stalwart defender.
in order to pick up defencive stance you need to spend 11 points, leaving 1 for con.
the problem of this it that Manglord explicitly stated not wanting to wield a shield, a requirement for the constitution bonus.
From all the classes, the fighter could pull of the feat requirements to do both styles: e.g. greataxe and dwarven axe&shield, for the "oops"we're screwed moments.

If even my feat-starved pally could do it (to an extent), then the fighter should be able to achieve that easily (the bolded part).

I do think that the AP costs in defensive trees need to be reduced, or the enhancements consolidated. As it stands, you need almost everything from those trees, leaving very, very little for anything else - and making the splash more difficult.

The shield requirement should also be gone as it was in the old enhancement system - though I recall reading that they're thinking about this.

[lyrecono]

If even my feat-starved pally could do it (to an extent), then the fighter should be able to achieve that easily (the bolded part).

I do think that the AP costs in defensive trees need to be reduced, or the enhancements consolidated. As it stands, you need almost everything from those trees, leaving very, very little for anything else - and making the splash more difficult.

The shield requirement should also be gone as it was in the old enhancement system - though I recall reading that they're thinking about this.

aye, my biggest problem with my tank was just that, to much ap in defense to be any good.
i would love the old full plate & thf back but i get more dps out of swf and switching to sword and board when things get to though.p
With the new system i will be trying out a full plate& swf (thunderholme khopes or d-axe)& orb for repair/heal amp or buckler for dodge, then switch to pdk shield when things get though.

[Ausdoerrt]

From the bard discussion...

What will break my build with the armor changes? 73% spell mitigation is more beneficial than evasion so my two splash levels for evasion are for naught and preventing me from getting to the pally capstone. If I do keep my current build, then my AC/PRR/MRR will be lower due to the shield change (which are already substancially lower than a heavy armor tank) AND I highly doubt we will see adequate (ie useful) light shields in the game at all levels.

Shields increasing the modifier are going to make this overpowered and cheap for non tanks to get 73% mitigation. I might as well take my cleric, throw intim items on and tank with my healbot.

What does my tank need? (besides the heavy shield w/evasion to be left alone) I need the tanking tree to be reasonably prices in enhancement points. I need some additional dps, hategen and/or guard options to keep agro. I need a purpose in non raids besides trying to keep up with the dps and maybe intim one off them and hit a few times before they kill it. I need more named armors in the end game to have some options.

I would take a page from city of heros tanks. They were buffed after launch to do automatic hategen on hits as otherwise they couldn't hold mobs attentions after a blast or dps aoe attack. We don't need it so things never can be pulled away, but some increased hate is needed by tanks. (and not dev hate... haha)

I think no evasion with heavy+ shields makes perfect sense - do you know how much those things weigh? Yeah this does change some builds, but, unlike with bards, I think that's precisely the point... Evasion is already more powerful than armor, so giving evasionists a chance to reach PRR numbers similar to plate'n'shield builds is unbalanced.

To agree on the "more light shields" part, but I expect we'll see more thanks to swashbuckler :)


aye, my biggest problem with my tank was just that, to much ap in defense to be any good.
i would love the old full plate & thf back but i get more dps out of swf and switching to sword and board when things get to though.p
With the new system i will be trying out a full plate& swf (thunderholme khopes or d-axe)& orb for repair/heal amp or buckler for dodge, then switch to pdk shield when things get though.

A bit beyond the scope of discussion, but I've rolled up a dwarf OC barb with SWF DAxe. Anyway.

I prefer the oldschool S&B+THF build because it still has great synergy with hand-and-half weapons. Though if they boost S&B feats/enhancements, this may not be necessary - we'll see.

I do very much look forward to these and pally changes. I've had to reroll my pure pally to an odd 13 sorc (EK)/6 pally/1 fvs (for DM) build to keep him fun. Sure, the changes since MOTU made it much, much easier to get high AC (I get 99 stable, up to ~110 with buffs) plus there's PRR (working on that), but he's getting more mileage out of self-cast blur and displacement. In addition, even with all the DPS buffs I could squeeze out - the double-strike bonuses from the EK tree (22% without boosts or items), 55-ish sustainable STR (with DM), and over 50% shield bash chance, his melee DPS is still pitiful to the point that relatively un-buffed evocation spells feel more useful.

In other words, I'm really hoping that the armor pass and the paladin improvements aren't too cautious - otherwise it'd be hard to convince me to return to my old pure build.

[lyrecono]

hehe, all i meant was that the swf line gives so much dps that my tank is gone do more damage swf then 2hf on trash.
he'll switch to a real shield when in trouble.

i love the old b-sword and D-axe, they got nice dps boosts due to swf, being higher now then 2hf, something Manglord wanted to do. (dps still behind any caster :P)
They can pull of fast dps with a buckler now and switch to a real shield for more damage mitigation.

@Free2play:

the fullplate(and i assume you meant towershield?) will still make him get hurt in elite ETK, but he'll be easier to heal now that the damage spikes are lower. (Don't forget blur/displacement and the energy blocking feat for more mitigation).
Without self healing he'll die, slower then he used too but he'll go down.
A monk at that level will fail (ref)saves once in a while too.

[Ausdoerrt]

They can pull of fast dps with a buckler now and switch to a real shield for more damage mitigation.

Well it's better single target, but lower AoE DPS. Depends on the build, I guess.

You're gonna have to splash at least 3 bard to be able to use SWF with bucklers, which is pretty restrictive build-wise (e.g. unavailable for anyone with paladin or monk levels, or any other lawful toons).

[lyrecono]

cleaves usually take care of my aoe damage on my tank, on EE i try to avoid too much agro, so its a plus for me.

thats right, i forgot
hmmm, just an orb it is than
and pdk shield when tanking

[Seikojin]

Best way to test these out: Lam build!

[lyrecono]

maybe when these changes go live on lamania

[Seikojin]

maybe when these changes go live on lamania

Lam isn't a live server, but a preview/test server. So yeah, I would hope they bring these to Lam/Lamannia soon so we can get some in game testing done.

[TromboneFireTurtle]

Lam isn't a live server, but a preview/test server. So yeah, I would hope they bring these to Lam/Lamannia soon so we can get some in game testing done.

+1

[Thar]

What about losing my wall of wood that took year plus to grind and now my pally won't be able to use with evasion. HATE THE CHANGE no consideration for people who have supported this game for years.

[B0ltdrag0n]

What about losing my wall of wood that took year plus to grind and now my pally won't be able to use with evasion. HATE THE CHANGE no consideration for people who have supported this game for years.

Yeah how terrible you will hAve better mitigation than evasion, and you toon will get better than a gimmick that is desired in nearly no content.

[lyrecono]

Lam isn't a live server, but a preview/test server. So yeah, I would hope they bring these to Lam/Lamannia soon so we can get some in game testing done.

I know lamania isn't a live server, i said when the changes go live on lamania


What about losing my wall of wood that took year plus to grind and now my pally won't be able to use with evasion. HATE THE CHANGE no consideration for people who have supported this game for years.

You do not loose the shield, the game mechanics changed, either switch shield or armor type, if your paly was a shield user already, he'll gain plenty in m/prr


Yeah how terrible you will hAve better mitigation than evasion, and you toon will get better than a gimmick that is desired in nearly no content.

A tank should have better mitigation then a evasion toon, thats the purpose of a "tank".
As for being desired, some people actualy like playing them

[bennyson]

What about losing my wall of wood that took year plus to grind and now my pally won't be able to use with evasion. HATE THE CHANGE no consideration for people who have supported this game for years.

You won't lose the shield, you'll just gain PRR/MRR and since you play a pally your saves will still reduce elemental damage you take by half. Combine that with MRR and it will be even lower.

[IronClan]

What about losing my wall of wood that took year plus to grind and now my pally won't be able to use with evasion. HATE THE CHANGE no consideration for people who have supported this game for years.

IMO light armor AC/PRR Large shield + Evasion builds are really unusual build that is born out of flaws in the game. In addition to describing almost none's of character builds on live. So yeah they might be a necessary casualty to making all the other types of non-edge case builds (like heavy and Medium armor and shields) actually viable.

[Ayseifn]

IMO light armor AC/PRR Large shield + Evasion builds are really unusual build that is born out of flaws in the game. In addition to describing almost none's of character builds on live. So yeah they might be a necessary casualty to making all the other types of non-edge case builds (like heavy and Medium armor and shields) actually viable.

I don't think they're a needed casualty, Tower Shields have a 2 dodge cap at best and it's non trivial to raise it to a decent level. Heavies have no dodge cap at all, so we might be seeing lots of SnB toons wearing medium armour and heavy shields so they can have a dodge in the mid to high teens at the cost of a few % in mitigation instead of having a dodge in the single digits.

Lower the MRR multiplier for heavies but let them keep evasion.

[bennyson]

I don't think they're a needed casualty, Tower Shields have a 2 dodge cap at best and it's non trivial to raise it to a decent level. Heavies have no dodge cap at all, so we might be seeing lots of SnB toons wearing medium armour and heavy shields so they can have a dodge in the mid to high teens at the cost of a few % in mitigation instead of having a dodge in the single digits.

Lower the MRR multiplier for heavies but let them keep evasion.

No, no, no, and no

Medium armor is nothing more but heavy armor with a higher dodge cap and lower armor class (which, by the way, is coming back now that monster To-Hit chances are getting nerfed).

Also, using a heavy or tower shield would impair movement and flexibility of someone vs. someone else using a buckler or light shield. Bucklers and light shields are built for the evasive character who wants to keep their flexibility while still getting some form of protection from a shield.

Also, if you did a Medium Armor + Tower Shield combo, the dodge cap on the armor becomes meaningless because the dodge cap on the tower shield comes first and the dodge cap on the armor is disregarded. You want Medium Armor dodge? Don't use Tower Shields.

[lyrecono]

Medium armor is nothing more but heavy armor with a higher dodge cap and lower armor class (which, by the way, is coming back now that monster To-Hit chances are getting nerfed).


source?

(btw, quite right there on the " No, no, no, and no")

[Ayseifn]

Also, if you did a Medium Armor + Tower Shield combo, the dodge cap on the armor becomes meaningless because the dodge cap on the tower shield comes first and the dodge cap on the armor is disregarded. You want Medium Armor dodge? Don't use Tower Shields.

That's my point, because of the depreciating gains of PRR you're better off not using towers which is silly. Heavy shields have no cap and allow much more dodge and also have 2x MRR.

And yeah, please source that comment about monster to-hit getting nerfed.

[bennyson]

What other changes do you plan?

~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Sev~

Does this qualify?


That's my point, because of the depreciating gains of PRR you're better off not using towers which is silly. Heavy shields have no cap and allow much more dodge and also have 2x MRR.

And yeah, please source that comment about monster to-hit getting nerfed.

True, but Tower Shields have a higher armor class than heavy shields.

[Ayseifn]

Thanks for posting that, guess there's not much to discuss until we can see how big of a change there is in mob to-hit. If the AC difference between heavy+tower isn't noticeably better than having ~10 more dodge then no tower for me.

[lyrecono]

it does, i forgot about that post, ty for quoting it :)
i doubt ac will be that useful,

Some high level shields
large:
bullwark of the stormfist (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bulwark_of_the_Storm%27s_Fist_(Level_25)), ac 25 at lv 25
Wall of wood (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Wall_of_Wood_(Level_24)), ac 25 at lv 24

tower shield:
Bastion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bastion_(Level_25)), ac 19 at lv 25
Madstone Aegis (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Madstone_Aegis) ac 20 at lv 25, becomes ac 21 after upgrade, supposed to be a raid item.
Purple Dragon Shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Purple_Dragon_Shield) ac 20 at lv 26

do towershields really have a better ac?
the named shields i found on ddowiki at levels 24-28 do seem to suggest otherwise.
The biggest insult is the raid shield, it realy falls behind in many ways.

i wouldn't mind seeing some tower shields added to the game, heroic&epic dragonscale towershields to match the helms&armor :P
For end game the devs could add thunderforged shields.

[gwonbush]

it does, i forgot about that post, ty for quoting it :)
i doubt ac will be that useful,

Some high level shields
large:
bullwark of the stormfist (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bulwark_of_the_Storm%27s_Fist_(Level_25)), ac 25 at lv 25
Wall of wood (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Wall_of_Wood_(Level_24)), ac 25 at lv 24

tower shield:
Bastion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bastion_(Level_25)), ac 19 at lv 25
Madstone Aegis (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Madstone_Aegis) ac 20 at lv 25, becomes ac 21 after upgrade, supposed to be a raid item.
Purple Dragon Shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Purple_Dragon_Shield) ac 20 at lv 26

do towershields really have a better ac?
the named shields i found on ddowiki at levels 24-28 do seem to suggest otherwise.
The biggest insult is the raid shield, it realy falls behind in many ways.

i wouldn't mind seeing some tower shields added to the game, heroic&epic dragonscale towershields to match the helms&armor :P
For end game the devs could add thunderforged shields.

Yes. If you clicked on the links for the large shields, you would find that the AC they provide without Enhancements/ED abilities is around 10 lower than what you listed, putting the Tower Shields ahead by 3-6 AC or so before other bonuses.

[lyrecono]

ahhh, ofc, that explains it