endgame ready rogue [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Fedora1

09-22-2014, 08:53 AM

I did a second life assassin build with dex/daggers on a Shadar Kai, but human will work as well. Easiest leveling I have ever done, works better in groups for agro management. Usually highest or close to highest kills (not 100% measurement of dps I know, but if you always have a low kill count you're not dps'ing).

No self healing until epics, but with all the damage avoidance and a weapon with vamprism it was a non-issue for me. In addition to a weapon with vamprisim, make sure you have a decption weapon and a deception (or imp deception) item as soon as possible. That way you get your SA damage in a LOT in addition to avoiding agro. Since L20 these have been my weapons of choice:

http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Blade_of_the_High_Priestess.png/364px-Blade_of_the_High_Priestess.png

http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Sacrificial_Dagger.png/410px-Sacrificial_Dagger.png

And these are also a must-have (or maybe Golden Guile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Golden_Guile)):

http://ddowiki.com/images/Backstabber%27s_Gloves_%28Level_25%29.png

**Those gloves are also available in heroic ML12-14.

morkahn82

09-22-2014, 08:55 AM

thanks a lot.

Saekee

09-22-2014, 09:20 AM

match the heroic backstabber glove with Golden Guile for stacking deception & improved deception.

nokowi

09-24-2014, 01:50 AM

match the heroic backstabber glove with Golden Guile for stacking deception & improved deception.

My understanding was that you get
1) one non-weapon with a deception or improved deception effect
2) one weapon with a deception or improved deception check
and that 1) and 2) stack.

Do two non-weapon effects really stack?

A) If the proc rate is 5% for deception and 10% for improved deception, the maximum chance would be 20% with a combo like epic backstabber gloves (non weapon) and agony (weapon).

B) If the proc rate is 3% for deception and 6% for improved deception, the maximum chance would be 12% with a combo like epic backstabber gloves (non weapon) and agony (weapon).

I believe the effect lasts for 4 seconds.

I will do some testing, and also make sure deception proc doesn't have a timer (like the bluff skill).

CThruTheEgo

09-24-2014, 07:27 AM

My understanding was that you get
1) one non-weapon with a deception or improved deception effect
2) one weapon with a deception or improved deception check
and that 1) and 2) stack.

Do two non-weapon effects really stack?

As I understand it, improved deception from one item will stack with improved deception on both weapons. This reflects my own experience when I've had all three sources (Agony, EMG, Avithoul Seal). After I dropped from three down to two (switched EMG to Thunderforged after I got Dark Diversion), there was a noticeable difference in the amount of procs. It still procced enough, but it was a noticeable difference.

I do not know if improved deception and deception on seperate items will stack. I recently got my Dragon Masque and am still using Avithoul Seal, so I'll have to see if I notice a difference.

nokowi

09-24-2014, 08:10 AM

Saekee

09-24-2014, 08:28 AM

yes--my understanding is that the worn items stack, but would appreciate testing. Maybe I can try later too with Guile and Backstabber.

nokowi

09-25-2014, 08:51 PM

As I understand it, improved deception from one item will stack with improved deception on both weapons. This reflects my own experience when I've had all three sources (Agony, EMG, Avithoul Seal). After I dropped from three down to two (switched EMG to Thunderforged after I got Dark Diversion), there was a noticeable difference in the amount of procs. It still procced enough, but it was a noticeable difference.

I do not know if improved deception and deception on seperate items will stack. I recently got my Dragon Masque and am still using Avithoul Seal, so I'll have to see if I notice a difference.

I ran a couple of tests and saw no difference with additional deception items.

Killing Sobrien (The Claw of Vulkoor) on EE with
1. EE Backstabber Gloves (Improved Deception)
2. Ring of Deceit (Improved Deception)
3. Golden Guile (Improved Deception)
4. Dragon Masque (Deception)
5. Agony (Weapon - Improved Deception)

With all 5 of these deception items, I had 84% of my attacks as sneak attacks. This was approximately 300 attacks.
I repeated with just Agony and the Ring of Deceit and got 89% sneak attacks.

Conclusion: Anything beyond your best deception weapon and best non-weapon deception item does not add to deception chances.

I did find out that with 15% attack speed and 20% doublestrike:
primary: attack every 0.500 seconds
offhand: attack every 0.666 seconds

This adds up to 3.5 attacks per second.

CThruTheEgo

09-26-2014, 08:23 AM

Conclusion: Anything beyond your best deception weapon and best non-weapon deception item does not add to deception chances.

Thanks again for the testing nokowi. I knew that multiple improved deception items did not stack, but now we know that improved deception on an item does not stack with deception on another item. I wonder what the proc rate is with improved deception from weapon/s and just deception (i.e. Dragon Masque) on an item.

I also notice you didn't test if improved deception on both weapons stacks. I probably won't be in a situation where I'll have improved deception on both weapons again, so it doesn't matter to me, but this is another possible condition. In my experience they do seem to stack, but I haven't done any actual testing to verify.

JOTMON

09-26-2014, 10:11 AM

Check out Hassan's Assassin in my sig. You'll also find links to other endgame assassin builds in there. There's also Mellkor's master assassin build, but last I checked it wasn't fully updated so there may still be a lot of inaccuracies in there.

There's also Zeus (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435435-Zeus-God-of-Thunder-and-Lightning), which is an acrobat build.

I don't know of any endgame repeater rogues. I think artificer is better suited for an endgame repeater build and if you're interested in that, then check out Dubbell O'Seven in my sig.

I tried Repeater Rogue..
In my opinion it sucks.. without splashing artificer for conjure bolts, you constantly run out.

UMD on a lot of Artificer scrolls are useless unless you can hand them to someone else to cast on you. cant cast Arti scrolls on yourself if you cant equip the weapon and scroll at the same time..
self casting twf rogues cast the scroll twice with weapon swapping.
Shuriken chuckers have no issue.
Rogues have no bolt crafting ability.. would love to see rogues get the ability to craft traps onto bolts and craft stacks of various bolt effects..
Otherwise expect to do a lot of running to House D to restock between quests and multiple quivers, and different types of bolts, since you cant fill a quiver exclusively with 1 type of bolt.

nokowi

09-26-2014, 11:10 AM

Thanks again for the testing nokowi. I knew that multiple improved deception items did not stack, but now we know that improved deception on an item does not stack with deception on another item. I wonder what the proc rate is with improved deception from weapon/s and just deception (i.e. Dragon Masque) on an item.

I also notice you didn't test if improved deception on both weapons stacks. I probably won't be in a situation where I'll have improved deception on both weapons again, so it doesn't matter to me, but this is another possible condition. In my experience they do seem to stack, but I haven't done any actual testing to verify.

Deception, Seeker and Sneak Attack are supposed to apply to both weapons, so two improved deception weapons should not increase the proc rate.

I posted a video on deception items that has some calculations
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgjCKLGi8kMIzg2BtiojRfg
(I had 15% attack speed, 20% primary double strike, 10% offhand double strike for these numbers).

Two improved deception items (weapon + non weapon, proc rate=20%) have a 96% chance of causing sneak attacks during the 4 second bluff period, and there was a 50% chance of it proc'ing after only 1 second. This means that you can expect long periods of sneak attack (10-30 sec) because deception will likely proc again during the 4 second bluff period. You should expect only short periods of no sneak attack (1-3 seconds). My testing showed about 87% of all attacks being sneak attacks.

Even a single improved deception item (proc=10%) will give a 77% chance of proc'ing again during the 4 second bluff period, and a 50% chance of proc'ing after 2 seconds. To summarize, even a single improved deception item (or two stacking deception items) will give you much of the benefit.

Here is my best guess

proc = 20% (any 2 stacking improved deception items) = 87% sneak attacks (confirmed through testing)
proc = 15% (any stacking deception + improved deception items) = 72% sneak attacks (guess)
proc = 10% (any 2 stacking deception items, or 1 improved deception item) = 52% sneak attacks (guess)
proc = 5% (1 deception item) = 24% sneak attacks (guess)

If you need to get through fortification to get a chance at deception proc'ing (I think this is likely), then fortification bypass will be very important to the amount of sneak attack you get. As an example, if you only get through fortification 50% of the time, your 20% proc rate would effectively be a 10% proc rate. This would cause you to get sneak attacks 52% of the time, and only 1/2 of the time would these get through fortification. (effectively a 26% sneak attack rate).

proc rate =20% for all values
Effective = 100% + Fortification Bypass - Mob Fortification (max value of 100%)

Effective ____ Actual % Sneak Attacks
100% ____________ 87%
75% _____________ 54%
50% _____________ 26%
25% _____________ 6%

These calculations show that Fortification bypass is very important when combined with dual improved deception items (at least for mobs with fortification).

gummolo

09-26-2014, 11:25 AM

These calculations show that Fortification bypass is very important when combined with dual improved deception items (at least for mobs with fortification).

Keeping this (^) in mind, DPSwise, is better to take Power Attack or Precision?

nokowi

09-26-2014, 11:51 AM

Keeping this (^) in mind, DPSwise, is better to take Power Attack or Precision?

The answer is that for mobs with some some fortification left after your bypass (and agro on you), precision will be much better.
Precision adds about 8-10% to your damage against this type of mob (with 2x improved deception items).
Power attack adds 2% damage to all mobs.

Keep in mind that in group play, you will likely attack mobs that have agro on another player (no need for deception), and the precision benefit would drop to 6-8%.

Its really a choice:
A) Do 2% more damage to mobs for which you already do very good damage.
B) Do 6-10% more damage to mobs for which you have (10%-80%) chance of getting through fortification

At heroic levels I would say that power attack definitely wins, assuming you never miss with the reduced to-hit. (You might get +10% damage all the time). At epic, levels it is a choice. I prefer precision.

Here is how I arrived at these results.

In U23, I am getting +8% damage from switching form a +10 Str bonus to a +29 Int bonus to damage (TWF Shadowdancer build).

The +5 to damage from power attack should amount to about +2% damage for an end game build (note that Power Attack is MUCH more important at heroic levels).

25% Fortification bypass will get you and extra 20-30% sneak attacks for mobs in the (effective 25%+) range (assuming 2x improved deception items).

If I assume 1/3 of my damage comes from sneak attack, then Precision will be much better (33%*30%= + 10% damage).

CThruTheEgo

09-26-2014, 12:38 PM

Deception, Seeker and Sneak Attack are supposed to apply to both weapons, so two improved deception weapons should not increase the proc rate.

I realize how it is supposed to work, but my own casual observations suggest that two improved deception weapons do increase the proc rate. I have heard this reported by others as well. I realize, however, that casual observation is not definitive and could very well be wrong. But until such testing is done, we don't really know. It's unfortunate that player testing is the only definitive way to know how various game mechanics work, but that seems to be how it is in this game. Even dev confirmations have been shown to be wrong through player testing.

CThruTheEgo

09-26-2014, 12:46 PM

Keeping this (^) in mind, DPSwise, is better to take Power Attack or Precision?

For content where power attack would be the winner (i.e. heroics), you shouldn't really need it anyway as most things will die quick enough with or without it. And as nokowi pointed out, the benefit of precision for a rogue is far more significant. It's no contest imo. Precision is the clear winner.

Just to be clear, I am speaking specifically about rogues. I wouldn't say this is true for all builds. For some builds, power attack is the clear winner. For others, they could both have value.

Wipey

09-26-2014, 01:18 PM

nokowi

09-26-2014, 01:24 PM

I realize how it is supposed to work, but my own casual observations suggest that two improved deception weapons do increase the proc rate. I have heard this reported by others as well. I realize, however, that casual observation is not definitive and could very well be wrong. But until such testing is done, we don't really know. It's unfortunate that player testing is the only definitive way to know how various game mechanics work, but that seems to be how it is in this game. Even dev confirmations have been shown to be wrong through player testing.

I had deception proc on both primary and offhand attacks, using only an offhand deception weapon. I can say for sure that a single weapon deception effect applies to both weapons.

I will run this test for you when I get some free time to make sure the proc rate is not 30% with 2 weapons + 1 non-weapon.

gummolo

09-26-2014, 01:42 PM

nokowi

09-26-2014, 01:43 PM

People currently take PA only because of Cleaves, OC requirement and Blitz nonsense.
Precision has always been better "raw damage wise". Even for two handers, improved PA, Barbarian PA and such. And of course various crit multipliers and super seeker now.

Not sure about crit confirmation needed for Deception proc. Much like any other weapon effect would go off regardless of fort.

Maybe. As a coder, I would check for Fort bypass first because if this fails, I can skip many other checks (sneak attack, crits, etc). Who knows when they check for deception... On a creature with 100% effective fort, it would be a waste of processing time to check for deception ahead of time, so I can see coding deception after the fort bypass check.

If deception appeared in the combat log I could answer this question, but it doesn't.

CThruTheEgo

09-26-2014, 01:46 PM

I had deception proc on both primary and offhand attacks, using only an offhand deception weapon. I can say for sure that a single weapon deception effect applies to both weapons.

I have seen this as well and I'm sure that one deception weapon will proc on both weapons. What is unknown is whether or not two deception weapons increases the proc rate.

I will run this test for you when I get some free time to make sure the proc rate is not 30% with 2 weapons + 1 non-weapon.

Don't feel the need to do it for me. I'd certainly be interested to see the results but, as I said before, I probably won't be in a situation where I have two weapons with deception on them again. I'm just pointing it out as another condition which is still unknown.

nokowi

09-26-2014, 01:47 PM

Thanks for all the usefull informations that I read here so far.

A bit unrelated but still... what is the best race for an Int based rogue? Human, drow or Sun elf (getting away the Clr level)?

is it usefull to get enough Con in order to tale Epic Toughness? are those HP really necessary? (last time I played a rogue cap was 20 and at that time I feel really squishy)

I recommend Human with Toughness/Epic Toughness for TR lives. Yes you need the HP. (Extra Feat, Racial damage boost that is very inexpensive and stacks with enhancement haste boost)

If you find yourself tough enough at end game content, you can consider switching to Drow for the +3 Int (2 initial, 1 from racial).

CThruTheEgo

09-26-2014, 02:18 PM

A bit unrelated but still... what is the best race for an Int based rogue? Human, drow or Sun elf (getting away the Clr level)?

Previously, there were essentially three optimal racial choices for an assassin – human for max versatility (high DC without sacrificing dps or survivability), drow for max DC (but required some sacrifice of either dps or survivability), and halfling for max sneak attack damage (through racial enhancements). See Hassan's Assassin in my sig for the human version.

With the introduction of the harper tree and +6 tomes, however, I'd say this is changing. +6 tomes in dex and con make it much easier for drow to qualify for improved sneak attack and epic toughness. And with the ability to use int for damage through the harper tree, weapon finesse is no longer needed at all. One of the assassin cores allowed you to apply dex to damage for any weapon that qualified for weapon finesse if you had that feat. It was easier for humans to include weapon finesse because they get an extra feat, so this advantage for humans has been lost. Also, the addition of harper means that AP will be very tight, meaning an int based halfling won't have the AP to spend on the racial tree.

So the end result of these changes, assuming you are willing to purchase harper and +6 dex/con tomes, is that drow will get max DC without any sacrifice to dps or survivability. They will basically have it all. I will probably TR my assassin into a drow after I've upgraded my other characters with U23 gear and gotten my paladin up to cap.

is it usefull to get enough Con in order to tale Epic Toughness? are those HP really necessary? (last time I played a rogue cap was 20 and at that time I feel really squishy)

If we're talking about an assassin built for endgame, then in my opinion, yes. Toughness and epic toughness combined provide 78 HP, and that's not accounting for the extra HP you'll have from getting your base con high enough to qualify for epic toughness. Assuming about 700 HP without them (and that's likely a generous estimate), 78 HP is more than a 10% increase. And your standard assassin build will have enough feats to fit them both in. Furthermore, assassins only have three stats to focus on now – dex, con, and int – and dex/con only need to be 21 base to qualify for improved sneak attack and epic toughness. Depending on race, you will need +5-6 tomes in both or you will have to invest level up points in them, which results in a lower DC.

nokowi

09-26-2014, 04:59 PM

I realize how it is supposed to work, but my own casual observations suggest that two improved deception weapons do increase the proc rate. I have heard this reported by others as well. I realize, however, that casual observation is not definitive and could very well be wrong. But until such testing is done, we don't really know. It's unfortunate that player testing is the only definitive way to know how various game mechanics work, but that seems to be how it is in this game. Even dev confirmations have been shown to be wrong through player testing.

With 2 EMG + improved deception item I got 80% sneak attacks. (out of a total of 340 attacks)

2 Deception Weapons does not seem to add any benefit.

My 3 runs have been 80%, 84%, and 89% sneak attacks, all using
improved deception weapon + improved deception non-weapon.

nokowi

09-26-2014, 05:18 PM

Previously, there were essentially three optimal racial choices for an assassin – human for max versatility (high DC without sacrificing dps or survivability), drow for max DC (but required some sacrifice of either dps or survivability), and halfling for max sneak attack damage (through racial enhancements). See Hassan's Assassin in my sig for the human version.

With the introduction of the harper tree and +6 tomes, however, I'd say this is changing. +6 tomes in dex and con make it much easier for drow to qualify for improved sneak attack and epic toughness. And with the ability to use int for damage through the harper tree, weapon finesse is no longer needed at all. One of the assassin cores allowed you to apply dex to damage for any weapon that qualified for weapon finesse if you had that feat. It was easier for humans to include weapon finesse because they get an extra feat, so this advantage for humans has been lost. Also, the addition of harper means that AP will be very tight, meaning an int based halfling won't have the AP to spend on the racial tree.

So the end result of these changes, assuming you are willing to purchase harper and +6 dex/con tomes, is that drow will get max DC without any sacrifice to dps or survivability. They will basically have it all. I will probably TR my assassin into a drow after I've upgraded my other characters with U23 gear and gotten my paladin up to cap.

If we're talking about an assassin built for endgame, then in my opinion, yes. Toughness and epic toughness combined provide 78 HP, and that's not accounting for the extra HP you'll have from getting your base con high enough to qualify for epic toughness. Assuming about 700 HP without them (and that's likely a generous estimate), 78 HP is more than a 10% increase. And your standard assassin build will have enough feats to fit them both in. Furthermore, assassins only have three stats to focus on now – dex, con, and int – and dex/con only need to be 21 base to qualify for improved sneak attack and epic toughness. Depending on race, you will need +5-6 tomes in both or you will have to invest level up points in them, which results in a lower DC.

Good Points, although it requires some careful planning for a Drow to get Epic Toughness, and
1) you likely won't do this with a Completionist Build
2) you give Up Epic Sneak Attack

You would need:
32 point build
(+6 Con Tome)
(+4 Dex Tome)

20 Int is 16 build points.
You need 15 starting Con for a Drow to have access to Epic Toughness, which is 13 build points (because of the -2 Con).
That leaves 3 points (on a 32 pt build) for Dex, which gets you to 13 (with the +2). A +4 or better Dex tome will get you to Dex 17 by level 15.

ITWF and GTWF require 17 Dex, which means that they must be your level 15 and 18 feats.
Improved Critical must then be taken at level 12
TWF must be taken at level 9
Level 1,3,6 feats would be Insightful Reflexes, Precision, and Toughness

Note that you don't have enough feats for Completionist with Toughness.
Note that you don't have enough Dex to take Epic Sneak Attack

Epic feats would consist of Overwhelming Critical, Epic Toughness, and +1 Int

I think Human still wins until you are tough enough to get by as a Drow without Toughness/Epic Toughness.

FYI: The extra Int from Drow will only amount to an extra ~1% Damage. You likely can take Human and get more AP to spend on Melee Power in the Harper Tree, which will result in more DPS.

CThruTheEgo

09-26-2014, 06:50 PM

With 2 EMG + improved deception item I got 80% sneak attacks. (out of a total of 340 attacks)

2 Deception Weapons does not seem to add any benefit.

My 3 runs have been 80%, 84%, and 89% sneak attacks, all using
improved deception weapon + improved deception non-weapon.

Good to know. Thanks for testing nokowi.

Good Points, although it requires some careful planning for a Drow to get Epic Toughness, and
1) you likely won't do this with a Completionist Build
2) you give Up Epic Sneak Attack

You would need:
32 point build
(+6 Con Tome)
(+4 Dex Tome)

20 Int is 16 build points.
You need 15 starting Con for a Drow to have access to Epic Toughness, which is 13 build points (because of the -2 Con).
That leaves 3 points (on a 32 pt build) for Dex, which gets you to 13 (with the +2). A +4 or better Dex tome will get you to Dex 17 by level 15.

ITWF and GTWF require 17 Dex, which means that they must be your level 15 and 18 feats.
Improved Critical must then be taken at level 12
TWF must be taken at level 9
Level 1,3,6 feats would be Insightful Reflexes, Precision, and Toughness

Note that you don't have enough feats for Completionist with Toughness.
Note that you don't have enough Dex to take Epic Sneak Attack

Epic feats would consist of Overwhelming Critical, Epic Toughness, and +1 Int

I think Human still wins until you are tough enough to get by as a Drow without Toughness/Epic Toughness.

FYI: The extra Int from Drow will only amount to an extra ~1% Damage. You likely can take Human and get more AP to spend on Melee Power in the Harper Tree, which will result in more DPS.

Completionist would be hard to fit, you are right about that. Fortunately, I don't have that problem :) and I suspect most assassins do not. No need to skip improved sneak attack though.

Starting Stats:
str 8
dex 15
con 14
int 20
wis 8
cha 11

All level ups into int except for the level 24 point which goes into con. This setup requires +6 tomes in both dex and con, or with a +5 dex tome you can start with 16 dex and 10 cha. Still end up 2 int points ahead of a human.

Feats:
1 two weapon fighting
3 toughness
6 precision
9 improved two weapon fighting
12 imp crit pierce
15 greater two weapon fighting
18 insightful reflexes
21 improved sneak attack
24 epic toughness
26 perfect two weapon fighting
27 overwhelming crit
28 elusive target

Final int 67: 20base, 6tome, 6levels, 2drow, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 3insight, 1exc, 2yugo, 2ship, 6epic destiny

Ending up with an assassinate DC of 73, 74 if you twist 1 int.

41 AP in assassin for capstone, 4 in acrobat for faster sneaking, 6 in drow for int x2, 24 in harper for all 4 int, leaving 5 AP to spend wherever, probably in either acrobat for subtlety or harper for more melee power or heal amp.

Personally, I don't like spending epic feats on int as I think there are too many valuable feats to pass up for only a single stat point. And I'd rather not spend twist slots on a stat, but I'd be more willing to do that than spend an epic feat.

If I get around to TRing Esoteris, this is exactly what I'll do.

nokowi

09-26-2014, 07:12 PM

Good to know. Thanks for testing nokowi.

Completionist would be hard to fit, you are right about that. Fortunately, I don't have that problem :) and I suspect most assassins do not. No need to skip improved sneak attack though.

Starting Stats:
str 8
dex 15
con 14
int 20
wis 8
cha 11

All level ups into int except for the level 24 point which goes into con. This setup requires +6 tomes in both dex and con, or with a +5 dex tome you can start with 16 dex and 10 cha. Still end up 2 int points ahead of a human.

Feats:
1 two weapon fighting
3 toughness
6 precision
9 improved two weapon fighting
12 imp crit pierce
15 greater two weapon fighting
18 insightful reflexes
21 improved sneak attack
24 epic toughness
26 perfect two weapon fighting
27 overwhelming crit
28 elusive target

Final int 67: 20base, 6tome, 6levels, 2drow, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 3insight, 1exc, 2yugo, 2ship, 6epic destiny

Ending up with an assassinate DC of 73, 74 if you twist 1 int.

41 AP in assassin for capstone, 4 in acrobat for faster sneaking, 6 in drow for int x2, 24 in harper for all 4 int, leaving 5 AP to spend wherever, probably in either acrobat for subtlety or harper for more melee power.

Personally, I don't like spending epic feats on int as I think there are too many valuable feats to pass up for only a single stat point. And I'd rather not spend twist slots on a stat, but I'd be more willing to do that than spend an epic feat.

If I get around to TRing Esoteris, this is exactly what I'll do.

Isn't there only 3 Int in your Harper Tree?
And you drink a -50% Fort pot for 2 int?

CThruTheEgo

09-26-2014, 07:23 PM

Isn't there only 3 Int in your Harper Tree?

I'm not on Lammania, so I don't know exactly what the harper tree looks like. I can only go off of the harper tree feedback thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447705), which I'm almost positive was not updated with any changes after the initial presentation, and the wiki entry on the harper tree (http://ddowiki.com/page/Harper_enhancements), which is clearly incomplete and incorrect in some places. So yeah, this is all speculation atm. But if it is only 3 available in harper, then you just end up with 66 int and save a twist slot. Doesn't really change anything.

And you drink a -50% Fort pot for 2 int?

Of course. Yugo pots have always been a key component for just about any build that relies on DCs. And now there's tons of fort available. Plenty of gear with well over 100%, along with brace for impact, leaves you plenty of room for a -50% penalty.

nokowi

09-26-2014, 07:32 PM

I'm not on Lammania, so I don't know exactly what the harper tree looks like. I can only go off of the harper tree feedback thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447705), which I'm almost positive was not updated with any changes after the initial presentation, and the wiki entry on the harper tree (http://ddowiki.com/page/Harper_enhancements), which is clearly incomplete and incorrect in some places. So yeah, this is all speculation atm. But if it is only 3 available in harper, then you just end up with 66 int and save a twist slot. Doesn't really change anything.

Of course. Yugo pots have always been a key component for just about any build that relies on DCs. And now there's tons of fort available. Plenty of gear with well over 100%, along with brace for impact, leaves you plenty of room for a -50% penalty.

Harper Core 1 and 3 give you 1 Int each. Tier 3 adds another Int (20 AP required).

Most epic elites subtract about 100% from your fort, so I wouldn't recommend this for elites (where you need the Int). ( I saw someone take a crit in GH with 170% fort). I run around with 200% fort.

I read you need 220% fort for the archers in the new raid. (Not that you would drink a yugo pot in the raid).

CThruTheEgo

09-26-2014, 07:53 PM

Harper Core 1 and 3 give you 1 Int each. Tier 3 adds another Int (20 AP required).

No stat boost at tier 4? That seems a little odd since every other tree has this. Then again, harper is clearly a unique tree - neither a class nor race tree and available to all - so I wouldn't be surprised.

Most epic elites subtract about 100% from your fort, so I wouldn't recommend this for elites (where you need the Int). ( I saw someone take a crit in GH with 170% fort). I run around with 200% fort.

I read you need 220% fort for the archers in the new raid. (Not that you would drink a yugo pot in the raid).

Yeah I don't know about this. Personally I think the idea that you need well over 100% fort is over exaggerated. On Santa's Little Slayer, in my sig, I ran around with 90% fort (GS Min2 necklace and -10% from tunnel vision). He was built for, and played on, EE. I can count on one hand the number of times it seemed like this got me in trouble.

Just to clarify, I'm certainly not advocating that it's safe to go around with less than 100% fort, but he was built with near max damage avoidance (73.28% total miss chance) so it was an acceptable risk for that particular build. A well played rogue won't be getting much agro in the first place, so having 100+% fort is plenty in my experience.

Where exactly do you get the number that "most epic elites subtract about 100% from your fort?"

nokowi

09-26-2014, 08:25 PM

No stat boost at tier 4? That seems a little odd since every other tree has this. Then again, harper is clearly a unique tree - neither a class nor race tree and available to all - so I wouldn't be surprised.

Yeah I don't know about this. Personally I think the idea that you need well over 100% fort is over exaggerated. On Santa's Little Slayer, in my sig, I ran around with 90% fort (GS Min2 necklace and -10% from tunnel vision). He was built for, and played on, EE. I can count on one hand the number of times it seemed like this got me in trouble.

Just to clarify, I'm certainly not advocating that it's safe to go around with less than 100% fort, but he was built with near max damage avoidance (73.28% total miss chance) so it was an acceptable risk for that particular build. A well played rogue won't be getting much agro in the first place, so having 100+% fort is plenty in my experience.

Where exactly do you get the number that "most epic elites subtract about 100% from your fort?"

This is from experience: Someone with 170% fort complaining about taking a crit. I would take crits regularly with 150% fort (solo play). I can't tell you how many players are amazed at my survivability. Having 200% fort is a big part of this. I rarely drop below 50% HP because I don't take crits. I notice the difference between 160% (no brace for impact) and 200% fort (with brace for impact).

If you are in group play and have good tactics (and I know you do) you are never getting attacked anyway, so I can see how you could get by with low fortification in group play. Here is an easy test for you. Drink your yugo pot and run an EE quest. Then take your fort item off all together and see if you notice a difference. I'm willing to bet you don't (you may be running around with close to 0% fort on EE content).

Also don't forget you are getting some fortification from guild bonuses.

Here are some posts about needing more than 100% fort:
https://orderofsyncletica.wordpress.com/tag/fortification/
https://sites.google.com/site/bookofsyn/naraka-the-epic-elite-adventure

I'm sure there are many more if you shop around.

Also note that on EE, that 30% time you do get hit, a single crit can kill you. Eliminating this through fortification will allow you to extend the things your rogue can do.

Also, I bring up fortification for reader knowledge, not to suggest you need to change your playstyle.

nokowi

09-26-2014, 11:07 PM

nokowi

09-26-2014, 11:11 PM

brzytki

09-27-2014, 08:38 AM

Here are the correct Harper Enahancements:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Harper_enhancements

Not really correct, since it lists +ability score 3 times in cores when it's only at tier 2 and 4. Anyway, there are 4 points of INT you can take in harper tree.

As for the race choice, it's true that drows are better for attaining higher Assassinate DC. But i think overall Human is a clear winner.
First is an extra feat. It's hardly enough to make a significant difference between human and drow but it's something to keep in mind. Well, you could use it to take Completionist, but let's assume we can't take it.
If you go human, you have easier way to get Epic Toughness, no need for +6 tome.
Then we have the INT issue. For the sole purpose of having max DC, drow's an obvious choice. But from the DPS perspective, max DC drows (with harper tree it will be more of a gap) will always be behind humans. Even if a drow can have 4 more points in INT than a human, it's what... +2 to-hit/dmg before crits and MP. But to get all the available INT from CThruTheEgo build, you'll have to forgo at least the 3rd tier of Haste Boost cause you won't have enough APs. Add to it that humans have cheap Damage Boost that can be used together with Haste Boost and the gap widens significantly.

Myself, I'd stick with human and I plan to do just that.

CThruTheEgo

09-27-2014, 08:53 AM

This is from experience: Someone with 170% fort complaining about taking a crit. I would take crits regularly with 150% fort (solo play). I can't tell you how many players are amazed at my survivability. Having 200% fort is a big part of this. I rarely drop below 50% HP because I don't take crits. I notice the difference between 160% (no brace for impact) and 200% fort (with brace for impact).

If you are in group play and have good tactics (and I know you do) you are never getting attacked anyway, so I can see how you could get by with low fortification in group play. Here is an easy test for you. Drink your yugo pot and run an EE quest. Then take your fort item off all together and see if you notice a difference. I'm willing to bet you don't (you may be running around with close to 0% fort on EE content).

On my assassin, most of the time I can go an entire quest without taking more than a few hits. A well built and played rogue should be very survivable. Across all the builds in my sig, all of which are built for and played on EE, I've never felt the need to go for extreme levels of fort, nor has it been my experience that this is a weakness that puts any of them at risk.

You are correct that I mostly play in groups and I can see where more fort would be a good idea for solo play. Solo play just bores me. Dynamic interaction with others, both socially and in quests, is one of the main reasons why I play this game.

On Esoteris I've got:

130% Shadowscale armor
40% brace for impact
-50% yugo int
120% total

I never had a problem with this level of fort.

Also note that on EE, that 30% time you do get hit, a single crit can kill you. Eliminating this through fortification will allow you to extend the things your rogue can do.

And that's my point. You are right, a single crit on EE can kill you, but I don't recall ever being straight up one shotted from a melee hit. If this does happen, it's not nearly often enough for me to bother noticing or trying to work in more fort. It's multiple hits in a row that always kill me (i.e. several non-crit hits).

Here are some posts about needing more than 100% fort:
https://orderofsyncletica.wordpress.com/tag/fortification/
https://sites.google.com/site/bookofsyn/naraka-the-epic-elite-adventure

This post says that most mobs get 1% fort bypass per CR of the mob.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/399341-Epic-Elite-how-to-survive-and-augment-for-fortification

Thanks for the links, but they don't really tell me much. I see exactly three people mentioning this rule of thumb, which I've never heard of until now, where epic mobs bypass 1% fort for every CR they have. But how do they know this? Was this stated by a dev? Has someone actually done some testing to verify this? Is it just an assumption based off of casual observation and experience? As I understand it, only rogue type mobs can bypass fort, which is not most mobs. That's not even limited to epics, in fact.

I also see in those links, about the same number of people saying that you don't need to go overboard on fort. It seems to me that we are all basing our assumptions about the need for more fort off of our individual experiences. I believe Syncletica also solos a lot and that may be where the difference in perceived need of fort is coming from for him. Casual observation is fine as long as it's stated as such. But I don't want to take anything as fact unless I see some hard evidence to back it up, or at least a dev comment on the mechanic when testing is impossible. Without those, all of our comments are nothing more than hearsay. Our experiences tell us different things, and the reality is, no one knows for certain because there has been no definitive testing done, at least none that I have seen. And we will each continue to base our assumptions off of the best evidence we currently have – our own individual experience.

Here are the correct Harper Enahancements:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Harper_enhancements

That's the page I linked in my post above. It's definitely incomplete and, at least somewhat, incorrect. It has strategic combat 2 listed twice, once at tier 3 and again at tier 4. Tier 5 is completely missing, which doesn't really matter for my purposes, but it does leave me wondering what else is missing. That's why I made the assumption that there was another stat point available at tier 4, and since it's listed in the Lammania thread.

Wizza

09-27-2014, 09:01 AM

I really wouldn't take Epic Toughness on an Endgame rogue. Specially since you can get ~100 HP just from eTRs now. Of course the other question is: which feats would you feat for that 1 Heroic and 1 Epic feat? The answer is: nothing, because Cleave and Great Cleave are absolute garbage for TWF. Dodge can be a solution if you really want that 3% but meh, Magical training is actually not too bad and that's it.

As for Epic Feat, I like Blinding speed and I'd rather have that than 50 HP. Epic DR is not too bad, Watchful eye can spare you some time (kinda like Blinding speed).

In the end, I'll probably go with something like Toughness and Blinding Speed on my Int Rogue.

Wizza

09-27-2014, 09:03 AM

On Esoteris I've got:

130% Shadowscale armor
40% brace for impact
-50% yugo int
120% total

You are just not noticing it then. 120% is absolutely meh and you will be critted half of the times in SH, HH, the new raids and probably in the new update too. I'm running a Rogue doing eTR with 120% fort too and I get critted regurarly.

Was this stated by a dev?

Yeah, it was.

CThruTheEgo

09-27-2014, 09:11 AM

Yeah, it was.

Got link?

brzytki

09-27-2014, 09:16 AM

Got link?

Good enough?

If a critter has any sneak attack dice, it gains a fortification bypass equal to its Challenge Rating.

If a CR 1 Kobold Sneak attacks someone with 50% fortification, the Kobold Sneak has a 51% chance to normally conduct a critical hit or sneak attack.
If a CR 20 Lava Mephit attacks someone with 100% fortification, the Lava Mephit has a 20% chance to normally conduct a critical hit or sneak attack.
If a CR 54 Sellsword Footpad attacks someone with 150% fortification, the Sellsword Footpad has a 4% chance to normally conduct a critical hit or sneak attack.
If a CR 29 Earth Elemental attacks someone with 125% fortification, it is still going to have a 0% chance to critically hit or sneak attack, as it has no sneak attack dice.

If not, search through U13 Release Notes.

nokowi

09-27-2014, 09:18 AM

On my assassin, most of the time I can go an entire quest without taking more than a few hits. A well built and played rogue should be very survivable. Across all the builds in my sig, all of which are built for and played on EE, I've never felt the need to go for extreme levels of fort, nor has it been my experience that this is a weakness that puts any of them at risk.

You are correct that I mostly play in groups and I can see where more fort would be a good idea for solo play. Solo play just bores me. Dynamic interaction with others, both socially and in quests, is one of the main reasons why I play this game.

On Esoteris I've got:

130% Shadowscale armor
40% brace for impact
-50% yugo int
120% total

I never had a problem with this level of fort.

And that's my point. You are right, a single crit on EE can kill you, but I don't recall ever being straight up one shotted from a melee hit. If this does happen, it's not nearly often enough for me to bother noticing or trying to work in more fort. It's multiple hits in a row that always kill me (i.e. several non-crit hits).

Thanks for the links, but they don't really tell me much. I see exactly three people mentioning this rule of thumb, which I've never heard of until now, where epic mobs bypass 1% fort for every CR they have. But how do they know this? Was this stated by a dev? Has someone actually done some testing to verify this? Is it just an assumption based off of casual observation and experience? As I understand it, only rogue type mobs can bypass fort, which is not most mobs. That's not even limited to epics, in fact.

I also see in those links, about the same number of people saying that you don't need to go overboard on fort. It seems to me that we are all basing our assumptions about the need for more fort off of our individual experiences. I believe Syncletica also solos a lot and that may be where the difference in perceived need of fort is coming from for him. Casual observation is fine as long as it's stated as such. But I don't want to take anything as fact unless I see some hard evidence to back it up, or at least a dev comment on the mechanic when testing is impossible. Without those, all of our comments are nothing more than hearsay. Our experiences tell us different things, and the reality is, no one knows for certain because there has been no definitive testing done, at least none that I have seen. And we will each continue to base our assumptions off of the best evidence we currently have – our own individual experience.

That's the page I linked in my post above. It's definitely incomplete and, at least somewhat, incorrect. It has strategic combat 2 listed twice, once at tier 3 and again at tier 4. Tier 5 is completely missing, which doesn't really matter for my purposes, but it does leave me wondering what else is missing. That's why I made the assumption that there was another stat point available at tier 4, and since it's listed in the Lammania thread.

I went to Lamannia and was only able to get 3 Int with 24 AP.

As far as Fort, I can't prove anything to you. Dev's never post the exact info you desire. Someone specifically complaining about taking a crit with 170% fort backs the suggestion that more than 100% Fort is desirable. I can not imagine why that person would have made-up this comment in the middle of a quest (they were obviously upset by being critted), so I take this as fact. A 1% reduction per CR makes sense in light of this comment, and it backs my experience that I can get critted without Brace For Impact (with 160% Fort).

If we go by individual experience, people think that more than 2 deception items or multiple deception weapons stack. People's experience do not always agree with the actual rules, so I am suggesting that you may have taken critical hits but may not noticed. Having a working Fortification of 120% may be enough for EE content with your play style (group play), but that doesn't not mean 120% makes you immune from crit hits. We can't know for sure, but the evidence I have points towards the idea of some mobs having fort bypass equal to their CR as being plausible.

This discussion has helped me understand Fortification better. I am going to recommend an optimal working fortification of at least 150% with a maximum needed fortification of 180%. I will be dropping to 180% Fort in U23 while freeing up the twist I currently use for Brace For Impact.

You can certainly run with less than optimal fortification and succeed. Players should understand the optimal values so that they can make informed decisions.

Also, I heard rumors that the archers on the new U23 raid are brutal. You may need more than 180% for some U23 content. If this is true, I plan on twisitng in Brace for Impact for 220% Fort while running the new raids.

CThruTheEgo

09-27-2014, 09:44 AM

Good enough?

Hah! That's perfect. MrCow's word is better than any dev comment lol. Thanks for finding it brzytki.

CThruTheEgo

09-27-2014, 10:50 AM

If you go human, you have easier way to get Epic Toughness, no need for +6 tome.

It's really not much easier for a human. Hassan's Assassin requires a +5 con tome to qualify for epic toughness without investing level up points into con. Unless someone just got lucky on their gold roll, they bought that +5 tome, so requiring a +6 isn't much more of an investment really.

Then we have the INT issue. For the sole purpose of having max DC, drow's an obvious choice. But from the DPS perspective, max DC drows (with harper tree it will be more of a gap) will always be behind humans. Even if a drow can have 4 more points in INT than a human, it's what... +2 to-hit/dmg before crits and MP. But to get all the available INT from CThruTheEgo build, you'll have to forgo at least the 3rd tier of Haste Boost cause you won't have enough APs. Add to it that humans have cheap Damage Boost that can be used together with Haste Boost and the gap widens significantly.

Human will only be ahead of drow in burst damage, but not in consistent damage. Burst damage is nice but is also limited. Assuming 24 AP in harper gets you 4 int (if 4 int is even a possibility, we will find out Monday), you need 41 in assassin for capstone, 3 in human for int, and 4 in acrobat for faster sneaking, leaving only 8 points to spend elsewhere. A drow will spend 6 total in the racial tree for 2 int, leaving 5 points to spend elsewhere.

It costs another 7 points in acrobat to get haste boost, but only 4 in harper for another 4 melee power. So drow will lack both haste and damage boost (i.e. any burst damage), but will have 2 more damage per hit along with 4 melee power. Now a human could spend 4 in harper for the melee power, but then is only left with 4 points, which is only enough for the first rank of haste boost. Personally, I'd value the melee power since that is consistent damage. A human will lead in burst dps, but a drow will lead in consistent dps.

But this is all really just speculation until Monday.

People's experience do not always agree with the actual rules

Agreed, and that's exactly why I always want to see actual evidence rather than just take someone's word for it.

Wizza

09-27-2014, 11:27 AM

Human will only be ahead of drow in burst damage, but not in consistent damage. Burst damage is nice but is also limited.

What exactly are you talking about? Damage boost? We have Draconic Reinvigoration now, so it's not limited.

brzytki

09-27-2014, 11:41 AM

Human will only be ahead of drow in burst damage, but not in consistent damage. Burst damage is nice but is also limited. Assuming 24 AP in harper gets you 4 int (if 4 int is even a possibility, we will find out Monday), you need 41 in assassin for capstone, 3 in human for int, and 4 in acrobat for faster sneaking, leaving only 8 points to spend elsewhere. A drow will spend 6 total in the racial tree for 2 int, leaving 5 points to spend elsewhere.

It costs another 7 points in acrobat to get haste boost, but only 4 in harper for another 4 melee power. So drow will lack both haste and damage boost (i.e. any burst damage), but will have 2 more damage per hit along with 4 melee power. Now a human could spend 4 in harper for the melee power, but then is only left with 4 points, which is only enough for the first rank of haste boost. Personally, I'd value the melee power since that is consistent damage. A human will lead in burst dps, but a drow will lead in consistent dps.

While this is all true, I think you underestimate Haste Boost.

Well, i was gonna list all the pros i could come up with in Haste Boost's favor and some math but i'll just say I LOATHE swinging slowly. ;)

CThruTheEgo

09-27-2014, 12:56 PM

What exactly are you talking about? Damage boost? We have Draconic Reinvigoration now, so it's not limited.

+1 use per rest and a 2% chance to proc a regen every 100 seconds at the cost of giving up other straight dps third tiers? OK.

While this is all true, I think you underestimate Haste Boost.

Well, i was gonna list all the pros i could come up with in Haste Boost's favor and some math but i'll just say I LOATHE swinging slowly. ;)

Oh I'm a big fan of haste boost, but it still has limited uses. Only 5 to start with, just a few items (which are mediocre otherwise) that can add more, dreadnaught extra action boost if you want to spend a twist slot. No matter how you look at it, a pure assassin is going to have limited action boosts.

Personally, I'd favor the extra DCs on a DC based build. The main reason I chose human over drow for Hassan's Assassin was because drow had to sacrifice a good chunk of dps and/or survivability to get the benefit of their higher DCs. I didn't consider the extra DCs to be worth the sacrifice before. With harper and +6 tomes, though, that's simply no longer the case. The sacrifice is minor now.

Wizza

09-27-2014, 03:50 PM

+1 use per rest and a 2% chance to proc a regen every 100 seconds at the cost of giving up other straight dps third tiers? OK.

You are doing it wrong if you are not using Draconic Reinvigoration in long quests where you can't shrine. What tier 3 would you put on a TF against Dracolich in Deathwyrm or Dragons or any other boss? All the other stuff at tier 3, against a boss, are not much of a loss. So yeah, you do it wrong if you don't use Draconic Reinvigoration.

brzytki

09-27-2014, 05:02 PM

Oh I'm a big fan of haste boost, but it still has limited uses. Only 5 to start with, just a few items (which are mediocre otherwise) that can add more, dreadnaught extra action boost if you want to spend a twist slot. No matter how you look at it, a pure assassin is going to have limited action boosts.

Personally, I'd favor the extra DCs on a DC based build. The main reason I chose human over drow for Hassan's Assassin was because drow had to sacrifice a good chunk of dps and/or survivability to get the benefit of their higher DCs. I didn't consider the extra DCs to be worth the sacrifice before. With harper and +6 tomes, though, that's simply no longer the case. The sacrifice is minor now.

I haven't seen that many quests anymore where you struggle to conserve sp/boosts between shrines, so i don't see the number of boosts as a problem. You get +1 use from ship buff, btw. As you said, one can twist 3 more uses as well.

Funny thing is, if you go with the build choices you wrote in this thread, you'll have 67 INT on a drow. If I'd make similar choices on my human, I'd have 67 INT (18 base+7 lvls+2 Completionist+1 human+ rest the same). So, the same DC plus Haste Boost/Damage Boost combo, minus 4 MP. And even then, I could drop 1 INT to get 2 MP.

Oh, btw Epic Litany is +2 Profane to all stats, so another source of INT one could utilize.

CThruTheEgo

09-27-2014, 06:12 PM

Funny thing is, if you go with the build choices you wrote in this thread, you'll have 67 INT on a drow. If I'd make similar choices on my human, I'd have 67 INT (18 base+7 lvls+2 Completionist+1 human+ rest the same). So, the same DC plus Haste Boost/Damage Boost combo, minus 4 MP. And even then, I could drop 1 INT to get 2 MP.

Completionist does make up the difference, and human has an easier time fitting it in. But I'm not a completionist and have neither the time or interest to get there. Of course, drow with completionist would get the highest DC, but has to make other sacrifices.

Oh, btw Epic Litany is +2 Profane to all stats, so another source of INT one could utilize.

I did forget about epic Litany. I have it as part of my planned gear for U23, but forgot to add it in here.

nokowi

09-27-2014, 08:18 PM

Completionist does make up the difference, and human has an easier time fitting it in. But I'm not a completionist and have neither the time or interest to get there. Of course, drow with completionist would get the highest DC, but has to make other sacrifices.

I did forget about epic Litany. I have it as part of my planned gear for U23, but forgot to add it in here.

I have played both human and drow builds with endgame gear. While Drow waste an AP for 2 SR, humans get a 20% damage boost on their way to +1 Int. Drow have 3 less AP than human if they take the second racial +1 Int. You need 27 AP in the Harper Tree to get Int damage, +1 Int, and 3% melee power from the Harper tree. It is tough to get this last 3 melee power for Drow without giving up something important.

In your build you dump 1 Int for a Con to be able to take Epic Toughness. Your Drow build just dumped a feat and 28 HP (when compared to human), all to gain +1 Int over a Human. An equivalent human build can start with 17 con instead of 15, which is where I get the loss of 28 HP. You seem to be losing a feat and 28 HP for +1 Int. (which you said you would never do)

You can get +2 Int if you can find a way to afford the second +1 Drow racial Int while gaining melee power out of the Harper tree. Either way, you are only gaining a maximum of +1 to your Int bonus. I think declaring Drow a clear DPS winner is a mistake, because as of U23 two extra Int is only +0.4% damage, less than 1 melee power (which is +0.8% damage).

Both Human and Drow builds will work well in U23.

CThruTheEgo

09-27-2014, 08:56 PM

In your build you dump 1 Int for a Con to be able to take Epic Toughness. Your Drow build just dumped a feat and 28 HP (when compared to human), all to gain +1 Int over a Human. An equivalent human build can start with 17 con instead of 15, which is where I get the loss of 28 HP.

I'm not sure why you would make this assumption. The human version would look just like the build in my sig, which starts with 16 con. The drow version I posted above ends up 2 int ahead of human, not 1.

You can get +2 Int if you can find a way to afford the second +1 Drow racial Int while gaining melee power out of the Harper tree. Either way, you are only gaining a maximum of +1 to your Int bonus.

I've already listed how I would spend my AP on the drow version above, so no need to repeat that again.

Both Human and Drow builds will work well in U23.

Just as they both work well now. Which one is better just depends on one's priorities.

brzytki

09-28-2014, 02:43 AM

I'm not sure why you would make this assumption. The human version would look just like the build in my sig, which starts with 15 con. The drow version I posted above ends up 2 int ahead of human, not 1.

He meant that to get your build going the way you want, you'll have to put 1 lvl-up in CON if you don't have +6 CON tome, which vast majority doesn't have. Beacause of starting CON of 15. The human version would have stats like this: 8/16/16/18/8/8, so it doesn't need +6 CON tome (that's why I said humans have it easier than drows to get Epic Toughness) and you can put all 7 lvl-ups into INT. So, basically drow vs human on a similar build has only 2 points of difference in INT. And seeing as both end up at the odd number of INT, human can get rid of 1 INT and get 2 MP, a thing the drow version can not do as it has already gotten all MP it could.

So, human version is -1 to-hit/dmg, -1 DC, -2 MP but it gains whatever you choose for an extra feat, plus Haste+Damage Boosts combo. And no need for +6 tomes as opposed to drow that needs either DEX or CON one.

I think that sums up the human vs drow debate on that build.

Anyway, I plan on running without Toughness/Epic Toughness on my human assassin, so it doesn't affect my choice one bit.

moo_cow

09-28-2014, 03:38 AM

+1 use per rest and a 2% chance to proc a regen every 100 seconds at the cost of giving up other straight dps third tiers? OK.

Very nice for swapping in. I will use my mortal fear and then every so often I switch to the boost regens to get them back.

CThruTheEgo

09-28-2014, 08:14 AM

He meant that to get your build going the way you want, you'll have to put 1 lvl-up in CON if you don't have +6 CON tome, which vast majority doesn't have. Beacause of starting CON of 15. The human version would have stats like this: 8/16/16/18/8/8, so it doesn't need +6 CON tome (that's why I said humans have it easier than drows to get Epic Toughness) and you can put all 7 lvl-ups into INT. So, basically drow vs human on a similar build has only 2 points of difference in INT. And seeing as both end up at the odd number of INT, human can get rid of 1 INT and get 2 MP, a thing the drow version can not do as it has already gotten all MP it could.

Yeah I got that. I did say the human version would start with 15 con and meant to say 16, which is what my build currently does.

But there is no loss of 28 HP on the drow version. Nokowi said the human version would start with 17 con. Those were his assumptions that I was questioning. A drow starting with 14 con, +1 level up, and a +6 tome ends up with 21 base con. A human starting with 16 base con and a +5 tome ends up with 21 base con. There's no difference between them. This is what I mean when I say that a drow doesn't lose any survivability compared with human.

So, human version is -1 to-hit/dmg, -1 DC, -2 MP but it gains whatever you choose for an extra feat, plus Haste+Damage Boosts combo. And no need for +6 tomes as opposed to drow that needs either DEX or CON one.

Both of those are correct, but as I mentioned previously, the extra feat now has less appeal (if you're not completionist, that is) and the human version already requires +5 dex/con tomes, which were most likely purchased by anyone following my build, so going from +5 to +6 isn't much more of an investment.

Drow does lose the burst dps, but that was never a main draw to human for me, it was just a nice bonus that came with the other stuff. It was the extra feat (used for weapon finesse to max dps) and the ability to fit both improved sneak attack and epic toughness while still maxing int for DCs. Drow is now able to do all of those as easily as a human. If burst dps is what you value then human is the better choice. For me, on a DC based character, I'd gladly sacrifice some burst dps for a higher DC.

nokowi

09-28-2014, 09:42 AM

Yeah I got that. I did say the human version would start with 15 con and meant to say 16, which is what my build currently does.

But there is no loss of 28 HP on the drow version. Nokowi said the human version would start with 17 con. Those were his assumptions that I was questioning. A drow starting with 14 con, +1 level up, and a +6 tome ends up with 21 base con. A human starting with 16 base con and a +5 tome ends up with 21 base con. There's no difference between them. This is what I mean when I say that a drow doesn't lose any survivability compared with human.

Both of those are correct, but as I mentioned previously, the extra feat now has less appeal (if you're not completionist, that is) and the human version already requires +5 dex/con tomes, which were most likely purchased by anyone following my build, so going from +5 to +6 isn't much more of an investment.

Drow does lose the burst dps, but that was never a main draw to human for me, it was just a nice bonus that came with the other stuff. It was the extra feat (used for weapon finesse to max dps) and the ability to fit both improved sneak attack and epic toughness while still maxing int for DCs. Drow is now able to do all of those as easily as a human. If burst dps is what you value then human is the better choice. For me, on a DC based character, I'd gladly sacrifice some burst dps for a higher DC.

Con depends if you will have a +10 or +11 con item in your U23 build, if you have +5 or +6 tomes, and if you have +3 or +4 insightful con item). I believe my U23 human build would be:
17 con +11 item + 3 insight +1 exceptional +6 tome = 28 con
Your 15+1 Con Drow will need to find a way to equip +4 exceptional Con to have the same HP.

Assuming 16 vs 17 con doesn't matter for you,
I guess my point is why not lose (80 hp) when compared to a human to gain +3 Int?
Toughness will get you 30 of those HP back. (lose 50 HP + feat) for +3 Int.

I actually agree with your logic as to getting that higher Int, but I don't see how Epic Toughness is consistent with that logic. If +1 Int is worth it, +3 Int should be a no-brainer.

With this choice, If/When you get Completionist, drop Heroic Toughness for Completionist.

CThruTheEgo

09-28-2014, 10:18 AM

Con depends if you will have a +10 or +11 con item in your U23 build, if you have +5 or +6 tomes, and if you have +3 or +4 insightful con item). I believe my U23 human build would be:
17 con +11 item + 3 insight +1 exceptional +6 tome = 28 con
Your 15+1 Con Drow will need to find a way to equip +4 exceptional Con to have the same HP.

And that's the difference. You would build both versions differently. You're not using the numbers that I posted above for either version. That's not how I would build a human post U23. If you take a look at my posts above, you will see that my drow and human would both end up with the same base con of 21 to qualify for epic toughness, so gear doesn't matter. With the way that I would build each of them, drow loses no HP compared to human and still gets a higher DC.

I guess my point is why not lose (80 hp) when compared to a human to gain +3 Int?
Toughness will get you 30 of those HP back. (lose 50 HP + feat) for +3 Int.

How do you figure that drow sacrifices +3 int for epic toughness? Again, I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from since they do not match how I have detailed my drow version above. Take a look at the numbers that I posted above and you will see that it's only 1 int that drow loses by fitting in epic toughness, not 3. And, as I have already mentioned, that 1 can be made up for with a twist to provide an even int.

I actually agree with your logic as to getting that higher Int, but I don't see how Epic Toughness is consistent with that logic. If +1 Int is worth it, +3 Int should be a no-brainer.

With this choice, If/When you get Completionist, drop Heroic Toughness for Completionist.

Epic toughness is a priority of mine, plain and simple. For me, those extra HP are key for an assassin's survivability. I don't have 3x barb past lives, heroic completionist, or multiple primal sphere epic past lives to get extra HP from. I have neither the desire or time to grind those out. For someone who has those, epic toughness is not needed. Epic toughness is a way for me to bypass that grind and still maintain top survivability on my rogue.

Shadow_Jumper

09-28-2014, 01:17 PM

Can check out the build in my signature if you are looking for an EE capable Halfling Assassin. Gives a few options away from human and drow if you want to look for something different

nokowi

09-28-2014, 01:55 PM

You are doing it wrong if you are not using Draconic Reinvigoration in long quests where you can't shrine. What tier 3 would you put on a TF against Dracolich in Deathwyrm or Dragons or any other boss? All the other stuff at tier 3, against a boss, are not much of a loss. So yeah, you do it wrong if you don't use Draconic Reinvigoration.

Thanks for the reminder Wizza, I have yet to do this. I currently have no Boosts on my Drow build, as I have already dropped the extra AP I plan to spend on the Harper Tree. I find myself skipping all shrines to maintain my shadowform/charges anyway, so I need this kind of item.

nokowi

09-28-2014, 02:00 PM

And that's the difference. You would build both versions differently. You're not using the numbers that I posted above for either version. That's not how I would build a human post U23. If you take a look at my posts above, you will see that my drow and human would both end up with the same base con of 21 to qualify for epic toughness, so gear doesn't matter. With the way that I would build each of them, drow loses no HP compared to human and still gets a higher DC.

How do you figure that drow sacrifices +3 int for epic toughness? Again, I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from since they do not match how I have detailed my drow version above. Take a look at the numbers that I posted above and you will see that it's only 1 int that drow loses by fitting in epic toughness, not 3. And, as I have already mentioned, that 1 can be made up for with a twist to provide an even int.

Epic toughness is a priority of mine, plain and simple. For me, those extra HP are key for an assassin's survivability. I don't have 3x barb past lives, heroic completionist, or multiple primal sphere epic past lives to get extra HP from. I have neither the desire or time to grind those out. For someone who has those, epic toughness is not needed. Epic toughness is a way for me to bypass that grind and still maintain top survivability on my rogue.

That sounds like a reasonable choice if you find you need the one extra assassinate DC.
I don't really notice a difference between DC 72 and DC 75, with the exception of EE Stormhorns.
Lately I find myself dropping some Int for more cool things out of Epic Destiny (neg immunity may be huge for U23 raids). To me this is the best argument for that extra Int.