S&B are slowly getting more popular. (while still nowhere near relevant)

[Nayus]

When 20 was cap seeing a dedicated S&B (not a Barb that switches to tank) was something completely supernatural and strange, now these players are accepted in groups (or not) and honestly, no one seems to give a **** about it, like it's completely normal, you can find a different S&B user once every 1~2 days and they're actually 100% full-time S&B.

I personally think is awesome and befitting of a fantasy game that DDO is (not), but it also shows a community that faces the hardships of Epic Elite with an actual Shield and Plate instead of running away from mobs as an Archer, as a Caster or as "melee" that beats mobs DOWN for 2 seconds and then jumps back to Reconstruct (Y U NO DIPLOMACY?)

And still... it's sad to see what those players get when they actually bring those toons to Epic Elite. Their AC is completely meaningless unless you're completely tweaked and ready (and even then it's still bad), we see our PRR being a mere few percent better than a full-DPS Fighter and our only out to Magical Damage requires actively blocking.

Whenever someone mentions "S&B" here in the forums, some guys are bound to show up and mention "they need more DPS", but this is simply not true. We dedicate our hands, body and souls to the art of using a shield in combat, a shield in the sort of combat where magic runs loose. S&B seriously needs better defenses, something to actually be proud about, not some meager % but actual overpower abilities to make everyone else jealous.

[Shaude]

just to be that someone we need more dps...:) but i would like to see possibly an adaption to swf(not sure on release idea +2/+4/+6) or add 2/3 of percentage of twf/itwf/gtwf to shield bash(20 base) (ie. swf=2/3(+20) iswf=2/3(+40) gswf=2/3+60)) and only if shield mastery but not both +2/+4/+6 and %. because face it a shield is also a weapon in the proper hands

increase deflection by shield type and/or shield bonus (doubled when actively blocking)

add a percentage to evade(reflex or fort) by shield type and/or shield bonus (doubled when actively blocking)

things like this to keep it relevant in the game ddo has become

[Andoris]

When 20 was cap seeing a dedicated S&B (not a Barb that switches to tank) was something completely supernatural and strange, now these players are accepted in groups (or not) and honestly, no one seems to give a **** about it, like it's completely normal, you can find a different S&B user once every 1~2 days and they're actually 100% full-time S&B.

I personally think is awesome and befitting of a fantasy game that DDO is (not), but it also shows a community that faces the hardships of Epic Elite with an actual Shield and Plate instead of running away from mobs as an Archer, as a Caster or as "melee" that beats mobs DOWN for 2 seconds and then jumps back to Reconstruct (Y U NO DIPLOMACY?)

And still... it's sad to see what those players get when they actually bring those toons to Epic Elite. Their AC is completely meaningless unless you're completely tweaked and ready (and even then it's still bad), we see our PRR being a mere few percent better than a full-DPS Fighter and our only out to Magical Damage requires actively blocking.

Whenever someone mentions "S&B" here in the forums, some guys are bound to show up and mention "they need more DPS", but this is simply not true. We dedicate our hands, body and souls to the art of using a shield in combat, a shield in the sort of combat where magic runs loose. S&B seriously needs better defenses, something to actually be proud about, not some meager % but actual overpower abilities to make everyone else jealous.

Have faith!

[Nayus]

Have faith!Aye, got some Cleric levels there.
It's nice to see the character getting better everyday, now I'm able to true solo Trial by Fire on Epic Elite (in contrast to wiping against a single dog in LoD) so I'm really having a lot of fun, differently from what people say I think Epics are totally awesome. This thread is not a rant but a casual routine plea for support xD

[Rykka]

When 20 was cap seeing a dedicated S&B (not a Barb that switches to tank) was something completely supernatural and strange, now these players are accepted in groups (or not) and honestly, no one seems to give a **** about it, like it's completely normal, you can find a different S&B user once every 1~2 days and they're actually 100% full-time S&B.

I personally think is awesome and befitting of a fantasy game that DDO is (not), but it also shows a community that faces the hardships of Epic Elite with an actual Shield and Plate instead of running away from mobs as an Archer, as a Caster or as "melee" that beats mobs DOWN for 2 seconds and then jumps back to Reconstruct (Y U NO DIPLOMACY?)

And still... it's sad to see what those players get when they actually bring those toons to Epic Elite. Their AC is completely meaningless unless you're completely tweaked and ready (and even then it's still bad), we see our PRR being a mere few percent better than a full-DPS Fighter and our only out to Magical Damage requires actively blocking.

Whenever someone mentions "S&B" here in the forums, some guys are bound to show up and mention "they need more DPS", but this is simply not true. We dedicate our hands, body and souls to the art of using a shield in combat, a shield in the sort of combat where magic runs loose. S&B seriously needs better defenses, something to actually be proud about, not some meager % but actual overpower abilities to make everyone else jealous.


It's too bad there's no 2SF option with massive intim bonus.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/og176.jpg

[axel15810]

They need to nerf earth stance if sword and board wants to be relevant again. It's so incredibly broken that robe wearers can get PRR and AC comparable to a sword and board tank, +1 crit range and at the same time not incur a dodge cap or stop evasion from working.

Heavy armor tanks are sacrificing evasion and dodge and getting almost NOTHING in return. This needs to change.

[capsela]

They need to nerf earth stance if sword and board wants to be relevant again. It's so incredibly broken that robe wearers can get PRR and AC comparable to a sword and board tank AND +1 crit range at the same time. Not to mention without incurring a dodge cap or stopping evasion from working.

Shields uncenter, but dont stop evasion. I like how single weapon fighting wont let u use a shield lol. What were they thinking?

I used shields because i hate spamming cleave but the dps is just not there. The devs dont see a problem apparently. US ED is a bad joke like palidin enhancements. Like 1d6 dmg is a tier 5 lol and they buff it by adding 6 AC, yeah that makes it even with LD!!!! LMAO.

Do they even play this game?

[Nestroy]

They need to nerf earth stance if sword and board wants to be relevant again. It's so incredibly broken that robe wearers can get PRR and AC comparable to a sword and board tank, +1 crit range and at the same time to not incur a dodge cap or stop evasion from working.

Heavy armor tanks are sacrificing evasion and dodge and getting almost NOTHING in return. This needs to change.


Shields uncenter, but dont stop evasion. I like how single weapon fighting wont let u use a shield lol. What were they thinking?

I used shields because i hate spamming cleave but the dps is just not there. The devs dont see a problem apparently. Do they even play this game?

I think, the main rant from axel mentions the fact, that monk-splashed (or pure monk) pyjama-wearers >>> s&b heavy armor wearers on the PRR and AC departments AND they get a better crit range in addition. This is sad but true. Earth Stance as it is nowadays is ridicully op and might be taken with only a minor splash of monk. If at least the op-ness would be somewhat bound on total monk levels or the like - would make most Kensai Pyjama Fighters at least reconsider.

But S&B imho still fills a niché. Might not be a big one, but I still love the Bastard Sword - Shield Fighter / Pally that while having tremendous PRR and saves still retains some formidable DPS (not the same as most pure twfs or thfs but still formidable). Might not be the best EE build, though, especially against regenerating or self healing mobs and bosses. But very stable and rightly skilled even able to byoh and eventually toss a heal or rez (by scroll or pally features).

[IronClan]

Whenever someone mentions "S&B" here in the forums, some guys are bound to show up and mention "they need more DPS", but this is simply not true. We dedicate our hands, body and souls to the art of using a shield in combat, a shield in the sort of combat where magic runs loose. S&B seriously needs better defenses, something to actually be proud about, not some meager % but actual overpower abilities to make everyone else jealous.

A) agree there are a curious number of not especially optimal S&B characters running around even at end game (at least on my server) this has been true forever, and is not a new thing IMO. Also agree that almost no one is bothered by this, which IS a new thing... DDO is not the Min/Maxer filled game it once was. IMO things were REALLY changed by the Enhancement Pass, most of the more ignorant players who were prone to calling gimp don't understand the more complex builds allowed by the pass and are afraid to throw the G word around in raids any more, lest they get corrected by the more creative types who have a better understanding of all the unusual synergies that are possible now.... Perhaps also the games population has shrunk so much that people are just happy to have some other players to run stuff with.

B) lets just say they are looking at some things and definitely recognize the Armor/shield/pajama issues the game has, hopefully this will bear fruit in the not to distant future.

C) There's a thread a couple pages back where a guy hitting 184AC is getting about 50% miss chance in Wheloon EE's with AC as his main mitigation; including Video standing in trash piles getting hit very little to prove it. While this AC number is high and requires an "all in" build effort that basically eliminates melee as his primary DPS method; it's not even all that close to the max ceiling. There would seem to be some "forum version" myths about AC in EE that are wrong. Not the least of which is that the average DDO player, even end gamers, don't only ever play EE's even if it was worthless in EE, which it is not (it's just not a good trade off).

Of course the problem is that a 50% miss chance is much easier to achieve with other systems while NOT requiring an all in build effort that massively impacts DPS. Several builds can achieve similar miss chance while actually ADDING to their DPS (Centered Kensei for example).

D) S&B is like playing the game with a butter knife in harder content, people who say they need not be improved in the DPS department make me sad. D&D and DDO have never been about one trick pony builds that SUCK for anything but their one specialized task. S&B shouldn't be the only exception to this, and the arguments that DDO should be WoW like ONLY WHEN IT COMES TO DOORSTOP TANKS should have their keyboards hidden from them. :p geez.

As long as I can build a character that has 35% incorp, 50% self cast no clickie displacement, 28% dodge, -20% damage from PRR, Evasion, high saves, and ~900hp while clearing rooms like I hit the smartbomb key on a Defender coinop machine, no one should say that being a doorstop is a valid trade off for sawing down the games mobs with a rusty buck knife.

[IronClan]

It's too bad there's no 2SF option with massive intim bonus.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/og176.jpg

LOL... "f*** the guys with the swords! Everyone get the ****** with two shields, he's sayin' things about me mum!!!"

[TheLegendOfAra]

When 20 was cap seeing a dedicated S&B (not a Barb that switches to tank) was something completely supernatural and strange, now these players are accepted in groups (or not) and honestly, no one seems to give a **** about it, like it's completely normal, you can find a different S&B user once every 1~2 days and they're actually 100% full-time S&B.

I personally think is awesome and befitting of a fantasy game that DDO is (not), but it also shows a community that faces the hardships of Epic Elite with an actual Shield and Plate instead of running away from mobs as an Archer, as a Caster or as "melee" that beats mobs DOWN for 2 seconds and then jumps back to Reconstruct (Y U NO DIPLOMACY?)

And still... it's sad to see what those players get when they actually bring those toons to Epic Elite. Their AC is completely meaningless unless you're completely tweaked and ready (and even then it's still bad), we see our PRR being a mere few percent better than a full-DPS Fighter and our only out to Magical Damage requires actively blocking.

Whenever someone mentions "S&B" here in the forums, some guys are bound to show up and mention "they need more DPS", but this is simply not true. We dedicate our hands, body and souls to the art of using a shield in combat, a shield in the sort of combat where magic runs loose. S&B seriously needs better defenses, something to actually be proud about, not some meager % but actual overpower abilities to make everyone else jealous.

But that's the thing, S&B DOES need more DPS to compete to some degree with other forms of fighting styles in DDO otherwise no one willl touch them. Or at best, they'll just be that guy who has a shield in the party. They also need a huge boost to PRR, DR, and for AC to actually work.


I think, the main rant from axel mentions the fact, that monk-splashed (or pure monk) pyjama-wearers >>> s&b heavy armor wearers on the PRR and AC departments AND they get a better crit range in addition. This is sad but true. Earth Stance as it is nowadays is ridicully op and might be taken with only a minor splash of monk. If at least the op-ness would be somewhat bound on total monk levels or the like - would make most Kensai Pyjama Fighters at least reconsider.

But S&B imho still fills a niché. Might not be a big one, but I still love the Bastard Sword - Shield Fighter / Pally that while having tremendous PRR and saves still retains some formidable DPS (not the same as most pure twfs or thfs but still formidable). Might not be the best EE build, though, especially against regenerating or self healing mobs and bosses. But very stable and rightly skilled even able to byoh and eventually toss a heal or rez (by scroll or pally features).

Why is it that everyones way to deal with the sad state of S&B the only way they can think to fix it is "NERF MONK STANCES!"? It's bloody ridiculous.

Why can't they buff S&B and leave well enough alone(Mountain stance)?
What exactly would be so bad about that?

[Blackheartox]

Making ac relevant would bring back s&b users to the game, it is releavnt for eh content but for ee, s&b are most of the time prr soak up damage dealers that have a hard time to keep aggro.

But, tbh, i didnt like in former ddo how you were untouchable when you had meaningful ac.
It was a bit ******** how you could solo anything on epic when you had high enough ac "numbers".

Currently as it is, when i personally see a ac tank, im always sceptical to the usefulnes of it til i loot the chest.
I mean i tanked reaver and tto in eh fot as a pure fleshie sorc.
On ee as a monkcher of course, never saw a s&b tank do the job better then i did.
In all honesty, if you think you need any skill to hold shield button and press intimi from time to time and swing a couple times, then you are very very wrong

[BigErkyKid]

It all depends on what you expect from S/B.

In my opinion, balance should come from more or less equating the ratio DPS / DTS ("Damage taken per second") for every arquetype if you build for it (again, if you build a healer...).

At least for those aimed at combat, that is (ignoring bard buffers and what not...).

With S/B physical damage melee this is simply not true. While you can get better DTS than a pure melee blitzer, this is not overwhelmingly so and it will place you far behind in terms of DPS. So its just not viable on its own and the contribution to a party might be questionable.

Of course my comments are regarding end game. I have run S/B in EH and had a blast, but I barely ever see wipes in EH regardless of how inexperienced the group is.

But in any case, if you see people running dwarf warriors with a darxe and a board it is because they like the flavor, not because the builds are an optimal or even solid choice for end game. Given that these builds are a tradition in PnP and even DDO, I think that they surely deserve more love to make them competitive.

[Nestroy]

(...)Why can't they buff S&B and leave well enough alone(Mountain stance)?
What exactly would be so bad about that?

Have you seen anybody lately running monk / monk splash with something else except mountain stance? On standard mode, at least? Long (maybe) rant cut short, mountain stance as it is atm is ridiculously op. Why it has to be a fine offensive stance at higher levels and bringing a whole lot on the defensive eludes my mind. Either I have a defensive stance and no great offense bonus, or I have a little bit of everything, or I have a great offensive stance with no defense to speak off. If I follow monk to lv. 12 I get Greater Mountain Stance and get an crit multiplier increase, arguably the most singe potent increase on any of the stances... I name this OP, actually, especially combined with the meanwhile great defense boosts (namely PRR and the constitution bonus).

It´s not the stances, it´s the ridiculous op mountain stance. Getting PRR, AC (given, this is no deal at all in the current system), Con AND later crit multipliers +1 is op. Compare to water (puddle ^^) - +4 max wis at lv. 18, +5 to saves, +4 % dodge. Bwuahahaha. At that level one of my rings usually has more dodge on it. Or take Wind - the best you get is a somewhat similar to Dex +4 and Speed IV enhancement, but without the running speed. Nice to have, but no big deal. For lv. 18, that is. On lv. 12 this is much less worth the trouble. Take sun stance - +4 strenght? At lv. 18!!! So, mountain stance is ridicculously op. Against the other stances, and against most other enhancements at apropriate level. Make Mountain stance have only the defense bonus, give the crit multiplier to sun and we all will live happily ever there after.

OK, what is so bad about that? That that single stance shines and stands out of the whole medicore thras* all other stances and most other classes have. It´s not that Mountain Stance is OP - it´s only OP compared to the rest of the field. Either make all stances and all other enhancements on all other classes equaly good (beef them up!!!) or give the crit multiplier to Sun Stance and it´s fine too. But Sun Stance basically giving a +2 to attack and damage in melee and perhaps thrown weapons and mountain stance giving superior PRR +18, AC +20%, +4 Con AND +1 crit multiplier is a little bit too much of a difference to my mind.

[Blackheartox]

Have you seen anybody lately running monk / monk splash with something else except mountain stance? On standard mode, at least? Long (maybe) rant cut short, mountain stance as it is atm is ridiculously op. Why it has to be a fine offensive stance at higher levels and bringing a whole lot on the defensive eludes my mind. Either I have a defensive stance and no great offense bonus, or I have a little bit of everything, or I have a great offensive stance with no defense to speak off. If I follow monk to lv. 12 I get Greater Mountain Stance and get an crit multiplier increase, arguably the most singe potent increase on any of the stances... I name this OP, actually, especially combined with the meanwhile great defense boosts (namely PRR and the constitution bonus).

It´s not the stances, it´s the ridiculous op mountain stance. Getting PRR, AC (given, this is no deal at all in the current system), Con AND later crit multipliers +1 is op. Compare to water (puddle ^^) - +4 max wis at lv. 18, +5 to saves, +4 % dodge. Bwuahahaha. At that level one of my rings usually has more dodge on it. Or take Wind - the best you get is a somewhat similar to Dex +4 and Speed IV enhancement, but without the running speed. Nice to have, but no big deal. For lv. 18, that is. On lv. 12 this is much less worth the trouble. Take sun stance - +4 strenght? At lv. 18!!! So, mountain stance is ridicculously op. Against the other stances, and against most other enhancements at apropriate level. Make Mountain stance have only the defense bonus, give the crit multiplier to sun and we all will live happily ever there after.

OK, what is so bad about that? That that single stance shines and stands out of the whole medicore thras* all other stances and most other classes have. It´s not that Mountain Stance is OP - it´s only OP compared to the rest of the field. Either make all stances and all other enhancements on all other classes equaly good (beef them up!!!) or give the crit multiplier to Sun Stance and it´s fine too. But Sun Stance basically giving a +2 to attack and damage in melee and perhaps thrown weapons and mountain stance giving superior PRR +18, AC +20%, +4 Con AND +1 crit multiplier is a little bit too much of a difference to my mind.

Dunno, tbh i prefer wind stance now with thunderforged weapons.
If i had a couple made i would prolly rarely run in earth stance since the dstrike from wind is to valuable to me personaly.
But its just me, trying to be logical, doesnt work out most of the time on forums tho xD

S&b should be deleted from game, as it is now, they are nothing else then scalers, and the sooner they realize that the better, no matter how much they think otherwise.
And in all honesty im realy tired when i join that raid with that s&b dude, that i have to read til wer full what armor he is using, how much useless ac he has, how much useless hp he has.
Its really getting on my nerves, that instead do discuss tactics, they discuss his full plate +5 of awesomnes

Either delete it, or do something with it to make it viable, useful, but not overpowered as it usualy is done with any change

[NaturalHazard]

Have you seen anybody lately running monk / monk splash with something else except mountain stance? On standard mode, at least? Long (maybe) rant cut short, mountain stance as it is atm is ridiculously op. .

Iv'e seen quite a few in wind stance, I like wind stance too, to proc more stuff, depends on what im using and what im fighting.

S&B needs a serious dps buff.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Have you seen anybody lately running monk / monk splash with something else except mountain stance? On standard mode, at least? Long (maybe) rant cut short, mountain stance as it is atm is ridiculously op. Why it has to be a fine offensive stance at higher levels and bringing a whole lot on the defensive eludes my mind. Either I have a defensive stance and no great offense bonus, or I have a little bit of everything, or I have a great offensive stance with no defense to speak off. If I follow monk to lv. 12 I get Greater Mountain Stance and get an crit multiplier increase, arguably the most singe potent increase on any of the stances... I name this OP, actually, especially combined with the meanwhile great defense boosts (namely PRR and the constitution bonus).

It´s not the stances, it´s the ridiculous op mountain stance. Getting PRR, AC (given, this is no deal at all in the current system), Con AND later crit multipliers +1 is op. Compare to water (puddle ^^) - +4 max wis at lv. 18, +5 to saves, +4 % dodge. Bwuahahaha. At that level one of my rings usually has more dodge on it. Or take Wind - the best you get is a somewhat similar to Dex +4 and Speed IV enhancement, but without the running speed. Nice to have, but no big deal. For lv. 18, that is. On lv. 12 this is much less worth the trouble. Take sun stance - +4 strenght? At lv. 18!!! So, mountain stance is ridicculously op. Against the other stances, and against most other enhancements at apropriate level. Make Mountain stance have only the defense bonus, give the crit multiplier to sun and we all will live happily ever there after.

OK, what is so bad about that? That that single stance shines and stands out of the whole medicore thras* all other stances and most other classes have. It´s not that Mountain Stance is OP - it´s only OP compared to the rest of the field. Either make all stances and all other enhancements on all other classes equaly good (beef them up!!!) or give the crit multiplier to Sun Stance and it´s fine too. But Sun Stance basically giving a +2 to attack and damage in melee and perhaps thrown weapons and mountain stance giving superior PRR +18, AC +20%, +4 Con AND +1 crit multiplier is a little bit too much of a difference to my mind.

Well, on my hybrid I've run nothing but Ocean Stance from 1-20, and at 23 I've now got all my gear besides EE stuff, and I've picked up adept forms. Still running mostly in Ocean Stance. That dodge does more for me than the PRR, Con, and AC bonus' of Earth.

While earth is nice for more DPS from the crit multiplier and some added damage mitigation, water stance gives me better saves, better dodge(That stacks with my ring), and more Wis for 10K stars. That last one being the biggest boost IMO. I swap from Earth/Wind to Ocean Stance when I use 10K stars so I can put more build/gear into boosting my Str/Cha and still maintain 44 Wis.

So, yeah, I see someone use other stances ALL the time.

Iv'e seen quite a few in wind stance, I like wind stance too, to proc more stuff, depends on what im using and what im fighting.

Seems I'm not the only one.

When compared to the other Monk stances, Sure Earth might be stronger in more situations. But seeing as how this is a S&B thread, it doesn't matter at ALL. The point is to make S&B competitive with other forms of combat, and then designing content that makes use of that. One way to do that is buff the DPs output and either make the defenses they already have useful, for implement new, truly powerful defensive abilities that will compete with pajama toons.

But I don't think even that matters much. Only certain types of players are going to want to play a S&B toon. This has always been true in DDO and always wil be true. So even if S&B gets huge buffs and is made super viable and useful in EE and raids, you're still going to have vastly more monkchers, Cetus clones, casters, and whatever else is DPS focused. Take the golden days for example, when tanks were needed for almost every raid. You still only had 1-2 in a raid, and sure most people had and alt tank they were "working on"(IE. they played it once every couple weeks for an hour or so. Maybe ran back up tank in a normal raid.), but very few people had a tank/S&B toon as their main.

[Chai]

As long as I can build a character that has 35% incorp, 50% self cast no clickie displacement, 28% dodge, -20% damage from PRR, Evasion, high saves, and ~900hp while clearing rooms like I hit the smartbomb key on a Defender coinop machine, no one should say that being a doorstop is a valid trade off for sawing down the games mobs with a rusty buck knife.

Yes.

And add to this that there needs to be more exclusivity to benefits that wearing plate provides. Right now the plate in and of itself provides less benefit than many class and destiny abilities do, and makes the character sacrifice evasion and a solid dodge score to wear it. There needs to be a pre that allows for evasion in medium or heavy armor - especially for paladins who have the high saves to synergize. Level 12 to have evasion in medium and level 18 to have evasion in heavy. That leaves 2 levels to splash the evasion class. On that character I can still have competitive "good enough" DPS in a DPS destiny, but not like an "all out" DPS toon would, but id have better mitigation than anyone else.

Right now theres no reason to wear plate, as its not even the best way to build a tank. A monk multiclass can have decent enough PRR and improved evasion with little to no DPS sacrifice, which helps them keep the aggro. The bell curve hurts AC tanks because other classes and builds that are not sacrificing what a "doorstop plate tank" sacrifices can still hit the AC/PRR thresholds where diminishing returns kick in, thus gaining near similar mitigation as the doorstop would have, with much better DPS.

To fix plate and shield users, more benefits need to be exclusive to plate and shield, and it needs to be much MUCH harder for a non plate and shield to reach diminishing returns thresholds. Then its a trade off between damage output -vs- mitigation. Until then, its a flavor build which can be competitive if geared well, but even less well geared DPS builds perfrom better than when the heat is on.

[Luxgolg]

It's too bad there's no 2SF option with massive intim bonus.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/og176.jpg

Ya but do they have ghostbane?

[Chauncey1]

He's useless.

[unbongwah]

I used shields because i hate spamming cleave
Actually, one of the few perks of S&B is a faster Cleave animation; if anything I spam Cleaves more on my S&B toons, not less, esp. if I've got Momentum Swing active. EDIT: also it appears glancing blows now proc on Cleaves, so that's even more of an incentive to use them.

Changes I'd like to see to S&B:

Double (or maybe triple) the defensive benefits from Improved Stalwart / Sacred Defense enhancements while S&B. I'd love it if they did the same with Gtr Defense enhs, but Turbine would probably consider that OP.
Tweak the PRR & doublestrike bonuses from Shield Mastery feats & Legendary Shield Mastery. Doesn't have to be huge; an extra 5-10% doublestrike and +25 PRR from the full chain would be a nice improvement without being OP.
Let IC:Blunt and Pulverizer apply to shields; this would be a significant DPS boost to shield-bashing.
Add a T5 enhancement to both SD trees which enables glancing blows with any 1H weapon while S&B. I confess I want this just so I can use Mornh + Pulverizer and still get glancing blows. :) But it opens more options for all S&B builds; but since it would be a T5, it shouldn't be OP.
EDIT: Shield Deflection should provide a passive bonus, like a reduced chance of avoiding dmg when not blocking.

[Enoach]

I've been running my Paladin as S&B since '06, why because of personal choice and I enjoy it.

My only issue with the trade off of more defense at the sacrifice of DPS is that the sacrifice does not translate well for the hardest content, such as Epic Elite.

Now things that have helped bring S&B to the forefront are the Fighter/Paladin enhancement lines that require a shield to benefit, especially when those benefits are +6 Con/+6 Str/+ percentage of HP and stance prevents Rage effects making the choice to loss all Defender stance features for rage or keep a shield on to benefit from defender stance features.

Now other things that have improved over time that make S&B a bit more popular:
1. Shield Mastery Feats now Provide Doublestrike chance
2. Shield bash has also improved in that it does not appear to be broken as it was in the past where it only seemed to occur on broken attack sequences

Personally I like the S&B approach I just wish my DPS sacrifice scaled better for the hardest content as the concept is to take less damage over the time it takes to kill something then the person that has more DPS (Or at least take damage slowly enough that it takes less resources even with a longer time to beat it down)

- My only pet peeve is that there are so many Tower Shields that look like Large Shields - Please Skin Tower Shields to actually look like tower shields.

[Ausdoerrt]

I've tried rerolling my ooooold DoS pally as an EK sorc/pally splash; 'tis a bit better but not great, still. All the new Doublestrike bonuses to shield users are certainly nice compared to before but still far from ideal.

Thinking of TRing him into a SWF arti build when U22 hits.

[Turbosilk]

When 20 was cap seeing a dedicated S&B (not a Barb that switches to tank) was something completely supernatural and strange, now these players are accepted in groups (or not) and honestly, no one seems to give a **** about it, like it's completely normal, you can find a different S&B user once every 1~2 days and they're actually 100% full-time S&B.

I personally think is awesome and befitting of a fantasy game that DDO is (not), but it also shows a community that faces the hardships of Epic Elite with an actual Shield and Plate instead of running away from mobs as an Archer, as a Caster or as "melee" that beats mobs DOWN for 2 seconds and then jumps back to Reconstruct (Y U NO DIPLOMACY?)

And still... it's sad to see what those players get when they actually bring those toons to Epic Elite. Their AC is completely meaningless unless you're completely tweaked and ready (and even then it's still bad), we see our PRR being a mere few percent better than a full-DPS Fighter and our only out to Magical Damage requires actively blocking.

Whenever someone mentions "S&B" here in the forums, some guys are bound to show up and mention "they need more DPS", but this is simply not true. We dedicate our hands, body and souls to the art of using a shield in combat, a shield in the sort of combat where magic runs loose. S&B seriously needs better defenses, something to actually be proud about, not some meager % but actual overpower abilities to make everyone else jealous.

The latest ED change helped. And it's not about dps is about controlling and taking dmg so dps can do more dps.

[Buffyanne]

Perhaps also the games population has shrunk so much that people are just happy to have some other players to run stuff with.

.

It's this.

And once again for those calling for nerfs, earth stance does not need to be nerfed.....armor damage prevention needs to be fixed.

[Nayus]

But that's the thing, S&B DOES need more DPS to compete to some degree with other forms of fighting styles in DDO otherwise no one willl touch them. Or at best, they'll just be that guy who has a shield in the party. They also need a huge boost to PRR, DR, and for AC to actually work.
S&B DPS actually is pretty decent if you build for it, it's lower but it's not anywhere near awful like you guys make it out to be.
Or you built a 100% defense toon and went shocked when you noticed you couldn't kill things. Without any gear, using only the basic stuff I have been able to sustain a decent DPS through Level 1 to Epics. You wouldn't see a gladiator that never practiced swinging his weapon enter an arena, a S&B toon is a fighter so he practices as hard as he can to get stronger everyday, and not only tougher.


There's a thread a couple pages back where a guy hitting 184AC is getting about 50% miss chance in Wheloon EE's with AC as his main mitigation; including Video standing in trash piles getting hit very little to prove it. While this AC number is high and requires an "all in" build effort that basically eliminates melee as his primary DPS method; it's not even all that close to the max ceiling. There would seem to be some "forum version" myths about AC in EE that are wrong. Not the least of which is that the average DDO player, even end gamers, don't only ever play EE's even if it was worthless in EE, which it is not (it's just not a good trade off).

Of course the problem is that a 50% miss chance is much easier to achieve with other systems while NOT requiring an all in build effort that massively impacts DPS. Several builds can achieve similar miss chance while actually ADDING to their DPS (Centered Kensei for example).Yeah, "extreme" or "min-max" builds always throw balanced players out of arguments (and by the way, he's healing like mad), when we're talking about a DPS toon (think of full-****** Barbarian in Blitz with 10 stacks) it's easy to solve because they lack the survivability to stay alive when mobs start hitting back but a maxed-out defensive toon is something else because he could just trivialize the game regardless of party make up.
I always thought Turbine was afraid something like that would happen if AC became a viable option, imagine a world where AC in the 100s was good, now take a guy with 230 to that world and see what happens.
And after years and years of rejecting any idea to bump AC they finally come up with a percentage system. I mean, it's done, it's there, we just have to take the AC curve and edit some variables, I'm pretty sure we have enough math nerds and engineering students in this forum to give detailed and EXTENSIVE input if we were asked, I wouldn't really mind making calculations the entire day to help Turbine (working for free?) if they would just post the formulas and ask for help, a lot of people would.

[Nayus]

And oh, they also revived Archers and gave caster free unlimited no-effort crowd control, why can't Kobold have nice things too? U_U

[Chai]

It's this.

And once again for those calling for nerfs, earth stance does not need to be nerfed.....armor damage prevention needs to be fixed.

The crit multiplier from earth stance needs to be moved to fire.

Right now fire is irrelevant while earth is best offense and best defense for most builds. Shuriken and proc based builds still use wind, which is balanced well.

Moving the crit multiplier to fire will make people choose between better damage mitigation -or- better damage output. Right now they get both at the sacrifice of nothing. Plate wearers with shields dont get both at the sacrifice of nothing.

[Ykt]

When 20 was cap seeing a dedicated S&B (not a Barb that switches to tank) was something completely supernatural and strange

I've seen plenty of people when 20 was cap who were S&B tanks (VOD, TOD, ...)

[Nayus]

I've seen plenty of people when 20 was cap who were S&B tanks (VOD, TOD, ...)The all-or-nothing old minmaxers who got enough AC to tank Suulo with 95% chance.

[Seikojin]

The Pre's for fighter and pally should bypass the shield limit for swf, like swashbuckler can. Put it in the stance.

[Propane]

I am running a tactical tank - dwarf - pure fighter - defender - Alchemical Air Fire Fir tower shield.

Improved Trip and Stunning Blow --> cleave/great cleave/whirlwind.

Lots of fun - with a little CC (trip) and DPS boost from stunning & spinning - seams to work fairly well...

While not leading in kills - it does contribute to the party getting things done-

[Rykka]

The crit multiplier from earth stance needs to be moved to fire.

Right now fire is irrelevant while earth is best offense and best defense for most builds. Shuriken and proc based builds still use wind, which is balanced well.

Moving the crit multiplier to fire will make people choose between better damage mitigation -or- better damage output. Right now they get both at the sacrifice of nothing. Plate wearers with shields dont get both at the sacrifice of nothing.

Yah I'm mostly through my kensai monk life and I don't touch fire or water at all. Earth for combat, Wind for movement and while fighting light trash just to not fall behind the zerg. Though I see pure monks use water quite a bit, the monk splashes that use MoF are in near perma-earthstance.

I'd swap fire's crit effect (+3ki) to earth and Earth's crit buff to fire. This would encourage a lot of swapping stances to suit the situation. That's more interesting to me.

[Rykka]

I am running a tactical tank - dwarf - pure fighter - defender - Alchemical Air Fire Fir tower shield.

Improved Trip and Stunning Blow --> cleave/great cleave/whirlwind.

Lots of fun - with a little CC (trip) and DPS boost from stunning & spinning - seams to work fairly well...

While not leading in kills - it does contribute to the party getting things done-

In EE quests?

[TheLegendOfAra]

C) There's a thread a couple pages back where a guy hitting 184AC is getting about 50% miss chance in Wheloon EE's with AC as his main mitigation; including Video standing in trash piles getting hit very little to prove it. While this AC number is high and requires an "all in" build effort that basically eliminates melee as his primary DPS method; it's not even all that close to the max ceiling. There would seem to be some "forum version" myths about AC in EE that are wrong. Not the least of which is that the average DDO player, even end gamers, don't only ever play EE's even if it was worthless in EE, which it is not (it's just not a good trade off).


My search-fu is bugged, link please!

[Nhennan]

I felt a moment of peace the other day on the Orien server when I saw a L28 dwarf in heavy armour and examined them to find a fellow L20 Fighter. I had a small tear form before I wiped it away.

My tower shield and dwaxe S&B dwarf does just fine in EH content and most EE. Plenty of self-healing helps and I'm starting to solo some EE content, albeit carefully.

Lack of dodge and evasion does hurt, but I tend to mitigate with decent AC (160 odd) and PRR (50% reduction), and then some specific stuff (eg Energy Sheath and correct gear).

I know that it isn't always the optimal solution, but typically end up tanking TO in FoT, fat dragon in Thunder Peaks, and Aurglaroasa in Deathwyrm. Typically it means just holding aggro and keep them locked down and out of the way while the others progress the raids adequately. DPS isn't great, but it's enough to make progress. My toon is starting to build a reputation for it and everyone seems happy for me to do it.

And yes, I chose that as a stereotypical character when my guildie introduced me to DDO and said 'we need a tank'. Are there better tanks out there than dwarf S&B fighters? Absolutely. Is he fun? Absolutely. :-)

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Making ac relevant would bring back s&b users to the game, it is releavnt for eh content but for ee, s&b are most of the time prr soak up damage dealers that have a hard time to keep aggro.

But, tbh, i didnt like in former ddo how you were untouchable when you had meaningful ac.
It was a bit ******** how you could solo anything on epic when you had high enough ac "numbers".


You have seen that video mentioned earlier in this thread of a 180ac tank getting ~50% miss chance in ee wheelon?

And you are still sticking with your "ac is not relevant in ee"?

Funny how a couple of forum trolls can propagate their false "determinations" troughout the entire comunity that not even a video evidence can change ppls mind...

[Shaude]

The crit multiplier from earth stance needs to be moved to fire.

Right now fire is irrelevant while earth is best offense and best defense for most builds. Shuriken and proc based builds still use wind, which is balanced well.

Moving the crit multiplier to fire will make people choose between better damage mitigation -or- better damage output. Right now they get both at the sacrifice of nothing. Plate wearers with shields dont get both at the sacrifice of nothing.

Exactly +1 to you sir.

i do think its about time to put some real time into fixing problems not patching nor nerf but a real balancing

[Blackheartox]

You have seen that video mentioned earlier in this thread of a 180ac tank getting ~50% miss chance in ee wheelon?

And you are still sticking with your "ac is not relevant in ee"?

Funny how a couple of forum trolls can propagate their false "determinations" troughout the entire comunity that not even a video evidence can change ppls mind...

You are realy trying to tell me how 180 ac is relevant in the 2 new raids on ee, that he can successfully tank ee fot.
If ac was relavant, he could solo ee wgu, or for that matter any content.
Can he?
Doubt he can do anything.
50% miss chance in character at level sheet does not mean 50% in game miss chance, the calculation formula is not correct.
And you dont count dodge in the calculation.
His ac, is more then useless

[poltt48]

You have seen that video mentioned earlier in this thread of a 180ac tank getting ~50% miss chance in ee wheelon?

And you are still sticking with your "ac is not relevant in ee"?

Funny how a couple of forum trolls can propagate their false "determinations" troughout the entire comunity that not even a video evidence can change ppls mind...

Wow can not be hit 50% of the time. A rogue or wizzy can get up to 35% incorpral, 25% dodge or more,and 50% displacement they can keep casting on themselves. I see more pale masters tanking dragons on 2 new EE raids then see tanks.

[Rykka]

You have seen that video mentioned earlier in this thread of a 180ac tank getting ~50% miss chance in ee wheelon?

And you are still sticking with your "ac is not relevant in ee"?

Funny how a couple of forum trolls can propagate their false "determinations" troughout the entire comunity that not even a video evidence can change ppls mind...

Could I get a link to that video? I don't see one. just sayin...

[BigErkyKid]

Could I get a link to that video? I don't see one. just sayin...

There is one. It just shows a cleric or fvs in heavy armor energy bursting enemies.

He is an impressive example, but I dont count that as S/B.

To all those claiming they have S/B builds that work in EE.

Please attach a video and a description of the build to your claims, otherwise it is too easy to think yeah sure....

[Blackheartox]

There is one. It just shows a cleric or fvs in heavy armor energy bursting enemies.

He is an impressive example, but I dont count that as S/B.

To all those claiming they have S/B builds that work in EE.

Please attach a video and a description of the build to your claims, otherwise it is too easy to think yeah sure....

That is not s&b that is prolly soulnovas build, since hes i think the only one that did videos of wheloon.
My negative attitude towards those builds comes from over a year worth of experience playing with them in ee content, my opinion that they are worhless party adition will be intepreted by smart people as a need to actually change those builds or how they work.
As it stands now, they give nothing to party what any other build could do, any other build that can also fulfill the role of more dps/healing/cc/kiting.
In eh they are amazing tho, + the fact that i have several friend and a guildie who, when i ask them how does that work out, they actually explain the weak points and useleness of ac in ee content.
So id rather trust people who played tanks since pre motu times then a random dude who says a cleric has a viable ac for ee wheloon.
The poster who called me a troll, sigh.
Well im not extremely happy to be one of mr trolls minions, but that person has no idea whatsover what "AC" means for "EE"

[Feithlin]

Could I get a link to that video? I don't see one. just sayin...

Thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441082-Sword-and-Board-Needs-Love-A-simple-example
Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIblgTQh7hQ&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbImc_m91lE&feature=youtu.be
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jklDtIHUsdw&feature=youtu.be

The last one is probably the most significant.

Reaching that AC implies a lot of sacrifices for very little benefits (see my comparison with a monk splash in the same thread). It isn't really a S&B build either, since it relies mostly on spells for damage.

[thegreatneil]

I have a S&B but he uses light armor and a heavy shield.


The big problem I see is trying to get high AC, for S&B you have to give up WAY to much.


But at least Ac works.


ish.

[unbongwah]

You have seen that video mentioned earlier in this thread of a 180ac tank getting ~50% miss chance in ee wheelon?
Since when is EE Wheloon considered representative of "true" endgame content? How much DPS did that build have to sacrifice in order to hit that AC threshold? And are they really better off than the monk / kensei with Shadow Form, max Dodge, Evasion, and Blur / Displacement?

[The correct answers are: never; a lot; and no.]

Anyway, the point is not that S&B builds are useless; the point is that they are way behind the curve both defensively and offensively. Right now the only significant advantages from being S&B are the extra Intim threat and Gtr Defensive Stance bonuses; but that's laughable compared to the downsides of being S&B.

[Chai]

There is one. It just shows a cleric or fvs in heavy armor energy bursting enemies.

He is an impressive example, but I dont count that as S/B.

To all those claiming they have S/B builds that work in EE.

Please attach a video and a description of the build to your claims, otherwise it is too easy to think yeah sure....

They are really not so far behind in DPS that they dont work, it is just less convenient when it takes a bit longer to melee mobs past 0 hp. Movement based combat allows for higher offense builds to simply avoid being hit by limiting mob contact through gameplay, rather than through ac and mitigations.

[Wongar]

You have seen that video mentioned earlier in this thread of a 180ac tank getting ~50% miss chance in ee wheelon?

And you are still sticking with your "ac is not relevant in ee"?



Seem to be a lot of people holding these videos up as proof that AC is useful in EE. Not trying to take anything away from the accomplishments in the video but I don't believe AC is a meaningful component in them.

I play a Dwarf Axe/Tower Shield/Heavy Plate Fighter/Paladin/FVS build as my main and will share a bit of my personal experience through numerous Epic lifes with it. After viewing these videos I redid enhancements to get to the same AC levels and did some testing. What I found is that the higher AC really did nothing for me - what really helped my stand and fight was displacement. I think what the linked videos show is the same as my own experience - a build with displacement, high PRR, and spamming heals can survive. AC is not really in the equation.


Since when is EE Wheloon considered representative of "true" endgame content? How much DPS did that build have to sacrifice in order to hit that AC threshold? And are they really better off than the monk / kensei with Shadow Form, max Dodge, Evasion, and Blur / Displacement?

[The correct answers are: never; a lot; and no.]

Anyway, the point is not that S&B builds are useless; the point is that they are way behind the curve both defensively and offensively. Right now the only significant advantages from being S&B are the extra Intim threat and Gtr Defensive Stance bonuses; but that's laughable compared to the downsides of being S&B.

I have soloed now most of the EE content on my build - most recently EE WGU so know it can be done but it is a painful process. EE WGU took my several hours and a ton of resources - I'll likely never do it again as the end fight was such a tedious/boring processes any sane person should have given up. I completly agree with the above quote - S&B builds are not useless but when you have to measure quest completion times in hours with the end boss fight alone taking well over an hour something is not quite right.

As for the other point about what you give up vs what you get with plate.
In addatoin to what has been mentioned about evasoin and dodge - also remeber that you give up being able to use many scrolls due to ASF. While I have the UMD, I never invisa zerg quests or use many of the other useful scrolls because I don't feel like stripping every time I want to read a scroll.

Additionally, fixing AC will not fix heavy armor. As an example that also supports unbongwah's quote. PM Monk posted an EE DA video a few days ago where the build has 25%/35% incorp, 50% displacement, 28%doge, evasion AND 100+PRR and 174 AC WITHOUT the defensive stance or being in US. The additional 20AC from US and 10% from stance and this build would easily be over 200AC while still having everything else. As long as someone using cloth armor can get meaningful PRR and a higher AC than a plate user along with all the other stuff like dodge and evasion fixing AC does nothing to balance things out.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

You are realy trying to tell me how 180 ac is relevant in the 2 new raids on ee, that he can successfully tank ee fot.
If ac was relavant, he could solo ee wgu, or for that matter any content.
Can he?
Doubt he can do anything.
50% miss chance in character at level sheet does not mean 50% in game miss chance, the calculation formula is not correct.
And you dont count dodge in the calculation.
His ac, is more then useless

No, i'm trying to tell you someone with a low 180ac had a high miss chance at near endgame ee. Centered monks can get higher than that 180. s&b ac goes over 250ac.

Not every build in this game has to be optimized ee soloer. We have those a dime a dozen anyway. Ac does work it's a FACT, regardless how much you want to troll about it.


Wow can not be hit 50% of the time. A rogue or wizzy can get up to 35% incorpral, 25% dodge or more,and 50% displacement they can keep casting on themselves. I see more pale masters tanking dragons on 2 new EE raids then see tanks.

You don't see tanks anywhere in the game. And i don't remember when i saw one experienced and focused on AC.


Dragons in new raids are broken. They are not a tank material.

Regardless, i don't see a good s&b tank being worse than those PMs, especially if we consider that all the dragons in the game have true seeing, meaning that 50% displace that is pm's strongest layer of defense goes out of the water. Unfortunately i don't see a s&b tank getting much better results either but that is a raid design flaw. Once cap gets to lvl 30, i'm pretty sure ac tanks will perform much better.



Since when is EE Wheloon considered representative of "true" endgame content? How much DPS did that build have to sacrifice in order to hit that AC threshold? And are they really better off than the monk / kensei with Shadow Form, max Dodge, Evasion, and Blur / Displacement?

[The correct answers are: never; a lot; and no.]

Anyway, the point is not that S&B builds are useless; the point is that they are way behind the curve both defensively and offensively. Right now the only significant advantages from being S&B are the extra Intim threat and Gtr Defensive Stance bonuses; but that's laughable compared to the downsides of being S&B.

I was discussing AC in general not rly s&b. But i do know s&b can get significantly higher ac values.

From calculations i did, i concluded the defensive ability heavy armor + shield (max ac, some dodge, 10% incorp) against centered monk (max dodge + 25% incorp + max. ac) is about the same at endgame, below endgame s&b wins easy. Displace can be used by anyone and stacks with everything, and a s&b might be able to use incorp. cookies to come out on top. However, AC in defender trees is just to ap expensive to be worth the trouble and shield gimps your dps too much, so yes, centered ac is atm better worth for the investment taken.

[unbongwah]

PM Monk posted an EE DA video a few days ago where the build has 25%/35% incorp, 50% displacement, 28%doge, evasion AND 100+PRR and 174 AC WITHOUT the defensive stance or being in US. The additional 20AC from US and 10% from stance and this build would easily be over 200AC while still having everything else. As long as someone using cloth armor can get meaningful PRR and a higher AC than a plate user along with all the other stuff like dodge and evasion fixing AC does nothing to balance things out.
Ironically, S&B builds are back to where they were a few years ago, relative to the "pajama tank" builds: subpar defenses (lower Dodge & Incorp, little if any advantage in AC or PRR) and subpar DPS (Dwarf Fortress + doublestrike bonuses from Shield Mastery can't close the gap with a good 2H or TWF build).

I'm fine with lower DPS than THF/TWF builds; that's to be expected if you play S&B. I'm less fine with also having worse defenses, seeing as that's kind of the point of playing a tank.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I play a Dwarf Axe/Tower Shield/Heavy Plate Fighter/Paladin/FVS build as my main and will share a bit of my personal experience through numerous Epic lifes with it. After viewing these videos I redid enhancements to get to the same AC levels and did some testing. What I found is that the higher AC really did nothing for me - what really helped my stand and fight was displacement. I think what the linked videos show is the same as my own experience - a build with displacement, high PRR, and spamming heals can survive. AC is not really in the equation.

How much ac did you get?

Ac is an arm and a leg mechanic. You don't just regear and reset enhancements for it. You build for it. Just like DC casting, you'll need all of it.



Additionally, fixing AC will not fix heavy armor. As an example that also supports unbongwah's quote. PM Monk posted an EE DA video a few days ago where the build has 25%/35% incorp, 50% displacement, 28%doge, evasion AND 100+PRR and 174 AC WITHOUT the defensive stance or being in US. The additional 20AC from US and 10% from stance and this build would easily be over 200AC while still having everything else. As long as someone using cloth armor can get meaningful PRR and a higher AC than a plate user along with all the other stuff like dodge and evasion fixing AC does nothing to balance things out.

200ac is not higher than what a plate wearer can get. Not even close.

[Wongar]

How much ac did you get?

Ac is an arm and a leg mechanic. You don't just regear and reset enhancements for it. You build for it. Just like DC casting, you'll need all of it.

200ac is not higher than what a plate wearer can get. Not even close.

I have tried EE with AC in the 180s and 190s - I can't realistically get higher than that with my build (only 3 martial past lifes). I usually run with AC in the 150s because that is as high as I can get without giving up on all meaningful DPS. As I have said many times, personal experience will vary but for me I see very little difference between a 150 AC and a 190 AC.

I have seen many people claim to be able to reach amazing numbers on AC but never back them up with details - for example from the poster of the videos:


We got a 20Fighter8epic Halforc tank on the server with 260 AC and he is a first-liver with no epic past lives.

So a few questions to anybody who has actually achieved close to 250 or 260 AC an a build:
How were you able to get there?
Does it make a difference to you?
Do you think the tradeoffs are worth it?
Do you actually run with the high AC or was it just an exercise to see how high you could get it?

[thegreatneil]

So a few questions to anybody who has actually achieved close to 250 or 260 AC an a build:
How were you able to get there?
Does it make a difference to you?
Do you think the tradeoffs are worth it?
Do you actually run with the high AC or was it just an exercise to see how high you could get it?

1) changing one feat ( for CE) changed enhancements, using heavy armor and tower shield.
2) its noticeable
3) worth it, absolutely not.
4) No was just to see how high I could get it.

No epic past lives.
Hits like a wet noodle.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/iamthegreatneil/ScreenShot00092_zps425a367d.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/iamthegreatneil/media/ScreenShot00092_zps425a367d.jpg.html)

[BigErkyKid]

Post videos of your "viable EE tanks" soloing WGU. Or soloing any other meaningful end game quest.

Let us see how you kill things, what hits you, etc.

I have tried, I have talked with S/B lovers that have tried, I have asked around in my guild, we had a thread of more than 20 pages discussing S/B.

With all the above I concluded that those builds are not viable. Prove me wrong, but with facts and not words :).


PS - I ll be VERY happy if you proof me wrong.

[Enoach]

I went back to a more defensive build to see for myself on my half-elf paladin (20). I'm currently Level 24 (20 Pal/4 Epic)

At Level 24 My current AC is 167

Breakdown:
10 Base
07 Dexterity (MDB enhanced by Fighter Dil Enhancements, Sacred Defender Enhancements and Mobility Feat)
45 Armor (Mournlands Full Plate 30 + Sacred Defender +50% Bonus)
44 Shield (Madstone Aegis 21 + 15% Sacred Defender Enhancement (lower tier) + 50% Sacred Defender Enhancement (upper tier) + 50% Legendary Shield Master (US Tier 2 twist)
05 Deflection (Mournlands Full Plate has +5 Protection)
08 Natural Armor (Necklace random loot)
01 Aura of Good (1st Level of Paladin)
05 Bulwark of Defense (Maxed Sacred Defender Enhancement)
04 Insight (Parrying Bracers)
02 Half-Elf Ftr Armor Mastery Enhancement
03 Sacred Armor Mastery Enhancement
01 Dodge AC bonus from Eldritch Ritual on Armor
01 Dodge AC bonus from Eldritch Ritual on Shield
01 Profane AC from Blessing of the Three Dragons (Ship Buff)
01 Dwarven Stoutness (Ship Buff)
04 Martial Epic Past Life Feat (Only one taken at the moment)
06 Lithe (ED Twist)
---
148 AC Before Combat Expertise

04 Epic Bulwark of Defense Feat (+4 AC while in Defensive stance)
15 AC from Combat Expertise

Now as I level up I will get access to Armor with Better AC then the ML Mournlands Plate and Shield. I am also aware that my Deflection Bonus, Insight (have a +6 insight item I'm not able to use yet due to my level) and Natural AC (+10 Item waiting for ML) can also go up from this point with higher level gear.

Other source of AC I'm could apply is Tenser's Transformation for +6 alchemical bonus to AC (short term buff I would need to use scrolls to get bonus)

So I'm seeing between 15-16 more AC outside of Better Armor/Shield, but would love to hear any pointers from others on sources of AC I may have missed, especially since I've only ID enough that I would still be below 200 AC. Even if the ability is not going to be available to me as a Pure Paladin it would help me to decide if I need a different approach.

While I agree Displacement is a powerful tool to prevent being hit, I can't help but wonder if I will be hit less utilizing both a High AC as well as Displacement.

[Wongar]

1) changing one feat ( for CE) changed enhancements, using heavy armor and tower shield.
2) its noticeable
3) worth it, absolutely not.
4) No was just to see how high I could get it.

No epic past lives.
Hits like a wet noodle.



Thanks for the reply. I don't know all the tricks / gear to boost AC. Any chance you could share your AC breakdown so I could see what you have and give me something to work towards? I know I must be missing some low hanging fruit as I am struggling getting much past the 200 AC range without boosts.

[Luxgolg]

1) changing one feat ( for CE) changed enhancements, using heavy armor and tower shield.
2) its noticeable
3) worth it, absolutely not.
4) No was just to see how high I could get it.

No epic past lives.
Hits like a wet noodle.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/iamthegreatneil/ScreenShot00092_zps425a367d.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/iamthegreatneil/media/ScreenShot00092_zps425a367d.jpg.html)

This exactly...Whats the point of high AC to keep your 1500-3000 hp in the red bar against everything you find in EE content that have 10k-100k+ HP ?

[Seikojin]

I think if SWF can get added to S&B builds, their dps would be increased, which helps with intim and hate generating abilities.

Also I think all the medium, heavy, and all shields need work so they can provide adequate ee defense. The big problem is the diminishing returns. How it goes from completely useful to completely useless. That is where the other layers have come in to help. Blurry, displace, incorp, prr... They all serve to reduce how many hits get to the red bar after they walk past your AC value. Adding more prr in the curve for medium and heavy armor wearers would help, since light has plenty of mitigation as it is.

But that leaves us with spells and traps. I don't remember if dr and prr reduce physical damage from traps, and I know resistances reduce from elemental based or spell based, so increases to those when in gear would be nice too.

[Red_Knight]

LOL... "f*** the guys with the swords! Everyone get the ****** with two shields, he's sayin' things about me mum!!!"

If they were lantern shields, sure. Lantern shields were possibly the most overly weaponized shields ever. Picture the following: Buckler style shield with spike dead center. Sword blade attached that extends about 2 feet past the knuckles, with the back end of the sword blade (dull of course) extending back to the elbow to provide protection. Built in gauntlet with two serrated spikes on the knuckles for entrapping an enemy's weapon. Oh, and it has mounts to attach a lantern to the shield, hence the name.

I once played a fighter in PnP D&D who dual wielded them.

[Red_Knight]

Have you seen anybody lately running monk / monk splash with something else except mountain stance? On standard mode, at least? Long (maybe) rant cut short, mountain stance as it is atm is ridiculously op. Why it has to be a fine offensive stance at higher levels and bringing a whole lot on the defensive eludes my mind. Either I have a defensive stance and no great offense bonus, or I have a little bit of everything, or I have a great offensive stance with no defense to speak off. If I follow monk to lv. 12 I get Greater Mountain Stance and get an crit multiplier increase, arguably the most singe potent increase on any of the stances... I name this OP, actually, especially combined with the meanwhile great defense boosts (namely PRR and the constitution bonus).


I run in either wind for attack speed or ocean stance for ki regeneration and saves, not mountain stance. Sometimes I turn on fire stance for a extra damage due to faster ki generation per hit. But in the past you had to basically chose which 1 or 2 stances you would excel at. And I didn't have the con for top end mountain stance.

[Red_Knight]

Right now theres no reason to wear plate, as its not even the best way to build a tank. A monk multiclass can have decent enough PRR and improved evasion with little to no DPS sacrifice, which helps them keep the aggro. The bell curve hurts AC tanks because other classes and builds that are not sacrificing what a "doorstop plate tank" sacrifices can still hit the AC/PRR thresholds where diminishing returns kick in, thus gaining near similar mitigation as the doorstop would have, with much better DPS.


Yes and no. It all depends on what your stats are. If I make a fighter with a good con, high str, and enough int to actually have 2 skill points per level (let alone 3) then odds are that I'm probably not going to have a high dex too. At which point I'll seriously consider using full plate and a tower shield. This is especially true if it's an elf fighter. WF fighter, I may have invested in wis more as well to avoid severe will save penalties. We aren't all 8+ past lifers with +6 stat tomes consumed previously.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Post videos of your "viable EE tanks" soloing WGU. Or soloing any other meaningful end game quest.

Let us see how you kill things, what hits you, etc.

I have tried, I have talked with S/B lovers that have tried, I have asked around in my guild, we had a thread of more than 20 pages discussing S/B.

With all the above I concluded that those builds are not viable. Prove me wrong, but with facts and not words :).


PS - I ll be VERY happy if you proof me wrong.

You should talk to s&b lovers some more. Nobody builds then for soloing.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I went back to a more defensive build to see for myself on my half-elf paladin (20). I'm currently Level 24 (20 Pal/4 Epic)

At Level 24 My current AC is 167

Breakdown:
10 Base
07 Dexterity (MDB enhanced by Fighter Dil Enhancements, Sacred Defender Enhancements and Mobility Feat)
45 Armor (Mournlands Full Plate 30 + Sacred Defender +50% Bonus)
44 Shield (Madstone Aegis 21 + 15% Sacred Defender Enhancement (lower tier) + 50% Sacred Defender Enhancement (upper tier) + 50% Legendary Shield Master (US Tier 2 twist)
05 Deflection (Mournlands Full Plate has +5 Protection)
08 Natural Armor (Necklace random loot)
01 Aura of Good (1st Level of Paladin)
05 Bulwark of Defense (Maxed Sacred Defender Enhancement)
04 Insight (Parrying Bracers)
02 Half-Elf Ftr Armor Mastery Enhancement
03 Sacred Armor Mastery Enhancement
01 Dodge AC bonus from Eldritch Ritual on Armor
01 Dodge AC bonus from Eldritch Ritual on Shield
01 Profane AC from Blessing of the Three Dragons (Ship Buff)
01 Dwarven Stoutness (Ship Buff)
04 Martial Epic Past Life Feat (Only one taken at the moment)
06 Lithe (ED Twist)
---
148 AC Before Combat Expertise

04 Epic Bulwark of Defense Feat (+4 AC while in Defensive stance)
15 AC from Combat Expertise

Now as I level up I will get access to Armor with Better AC then the ML Mournlands Plate and Shield. I am also aware that my Deflection Bonus, Insight (have a +6 insight item I'm not able to use yet due to my level) and Natural AC (+10 Item waiting for ML) can also go up from this point with higher level gear.

Other source of AC I'm could apply is Tenser's Transformation for +6 alchemical bonus to AC (short term buff I would need to use scrolls to get bonus)

So I'm seeing between 15-16 more AC outside of Better Armor/Shield, but would love to hear any pointers from others on sources of AC I may have missed, especially since I've only ID enough that I would still be below 200 AC. Even if the ability is not going to be available to me as a Pure Paladin it would help me to decide if I need a different approach.

While I agree Displacement is a powerful tool to prevent being hit, I can't help but wonder if I will be hit less utilizing both a High AC as well as Displacement.

First thing you do is reroll :D

6 pally lvls gives you all the ac you can get from the class.

Take a look at warpriest and eldrich knights enhancement trees.

[Enoach]

First thing you do is reroll :D

6 pally lvls gives you all the ac you can get from the class.

Take a look at warpriest and eldrich knights enhancement trees.

As a Paladin player form '06 reroll is not a choice I would make.

To get all the AC from the Sacred Defender I would still need to go to Tier 5 (32 AP minimum)

War Priest with all of the core abilities would give me +6 (11 AP minimum)

Eldritch Knight -
Improved Mage Armor +10% AC (Tier 1) (4 AP)
Tenser's is Tier 5 so cannot do this and get all Sacred Defender AC bonuses


Yet, this cannot be the only answer as the screen shot showing 270ish AC the character has neither Arcane or Divine Levels. So I'm thinking there is other sources of AC I still have yet to tap into.

While I'm not sure about adding in Cleric/FvS level, I can see a single level of Sorcerer and 4AP would be interesting as is would gain a 5 minute Shield spell for MM resistance.

But it is knowing what options are available, and this does help.

[Red_Knight]

I think all the truly insane AC amounts all require outside buffs. Also keep in mind that mage armor doesn't stack with any other type of armor bonus. So it wouldn't stack with your full plate (if worn). The +10% from improved mage armor might though, not sure about that. Really, not sure if the prestige line is really that useful to a warrior. I mean, mage armor and shield spell... when you can already equip better?

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

As a Paladin player form '06 reroll is not a choice I would make.

To get all the AC from the Sacred Defender I would still need to go to Tier 5 (32 AP minimum)

War Priest with all of the core abilities would give me +6 (11 AP minimum)

Eldritch Knight -
Improved Mage Armor +10% AC (Tier 1) (4 AP)
Tenser's is Tier 5 so cannot do this and get all Sacred Defender AC bonuses


Yet, this cannot be the only answer as the screen shot showing 270ish AC the character has neither Arcane or Divine Levels. So I'm thinking there is other sources of AC I still have yet to tap into.

While I'm not sure about adding in Cleric/FvS level, I can see a single level of Sorcerer and 4AP would be interesting as is would gain a 5 minute Shield spell for MM resistance.

But it is knowing what options are available, and this does help.

10% ac is almost 20. CE will add that much as well. Unfortunately there are not that many large bonuses. You'll need a madstone aegis and the best ac fullplate you can get. Other than that, gear (deflection, natural, insight, dex) sentinel destiny and a couple of ac you can twist, there are just bits and pieces.

You can get 3 from dwarf
6 from fighter
bulwark...

[Enoach]

... You'll need a madstone aegis r...

Just so you know this right here made me laugh - I even listed this shield in my breakdown.

I understand your list, but what I'm looking for is how did a 12/4/4 Ftr/Pal/Rog get 270ish AC. And what if anything from that am I missing that I could add on.

Also the +10% is nice from Eldritch, just not sure if potentially not having enough AP to keep my MDB and purchasing that would be wise is all.

[thegreatneil]

Just so you know this right here made me laugh - I even listed this shield in my breakdown.

I understand your list, but what I'm looking for is how did a 12/4/4 Ftr/Pal/Rog get 270ish AC. And what if anything from that am I missing that I could add on.

Also the +10% is nice from Eldritch, just not sure if potentially not having enough AP to keep my MDB and purchasing that would be wise is all.

Ok would like to state to get that shot I went full ******.
Normally my AC is about 75ish at best.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/iamthegreatneil/Acbreakdown_zps3e1d0aa2.png (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/iamthegreatneil/media/Acbreakdown_zps3e1d0aa2.png.html)

Armor: white dragon plate (fully upgraded)
Shield: PDK
Weapon: oathblade (needed something with parrying)
Notable enhancements:
Fighter:
Stalwart Defensive Mastery: +3 Armor Class
Stalwart Shield Mastery; +15% Shield Armor Class
Armor Expertise; +3 to its Enhancement Bonus
Shield Expertise: +3 to its Enhancement Bonus
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor 50%
Paladin:
Sacred Armor Mastery: +3 Armor Class
Sacred Shield Mastery +15% Shield Armor Class
Bulwark Aura:+5 Armor class
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor 50%
Human:
Fighting Style: Shield Mastery: +15% Shield Armor Class
ED:
Unyielding Sentinel
Unbreakable : Passive bonuses: +5 sacred bonus to natural armor.
Shield Prowess : Passive Bonus: Your shield's AC contribution is increased by 50%
Hardened : Passive Bonus: +15 Armor class
Twists:
Walking with Waves +6 Armor Class
Lithe +6 Armor Class
Dragonhide +3 natural armor
Buffs:
Tensors +6 alchemical Armor Class
Full ship buffs
Defense Boost: Activate to gain a +15 Action Boost bonus to Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.
Feats:
Combat Expertise 10% Ac bonus

Everything listed seems to stack as far as I can tell.

Just guessing but a 12 fighter 6 pali 2 wiz (dwarf) could get 10% (Improved Mage Armor) more so I'm guessing 300 is possible.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Ok would like to state to get that shot I went full ******.
Normally my AC is about 75ish at best.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/iamthegreatneil/Acbreakdown_zps3e1d0aa2.png (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/iamthegreatneil/media/Acbreakdown_zps3e1d0aa2.png.html)

Armor: white dragon plate (fully upgraded)
Shield: PDK
Weapon: oathblade (needed something with parrying)
Notable enhancements:
Fighter:
Stalwart Defensive Mastery: +3 Armor Class
Stalwart Shield Mastery; +15% Shield Armor Class
Armor Expertise; +3 to its Enhancement Bonus
Shield Expertise: +3 to its Enhancement Bonus
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor 50%
Paladin:
Sacred Armor Mastery: +3 Armor Class
Sacred Shield Mastery +15% Shield Armor Class
Bulwark Aura:+5 Armor class
Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor 50%
Human:
Fighting Style: Shield Mastery: +15% Shield Armor Class
ED:
Unyielding Sentinel
Unbreakable : Passive bonuses: +5 sacred bonus to natural armor.
Shield Prowess : Passive Bonus: Your shield's AC contribution is increased by 50%
Hardened : Passive Bonus: +15 Armor class
Twists:
Walking with Waves +6 Armor Class
Lithe +6 Armor Class
Dragonhide +3 natural armor
Buffs:
Tensors +6 alchemical Armor Class
Full ship buffs
Defense Boost: Activate to gain a +15 Action Boost bonus to Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.
Feats:
Combat Expertise 10% Ac bonus

Everything listed seems to stack as far as I can tell.

Just guessing but a 12 fighter 6 pali 2 wiz (dwarf) could get 10% (Improved Mage Armor) more so I'm guessing 300 is possible.

Do you have any epic past lives? You can get 36ac there atm, 45 by the time level cap gets up to 30.

[thegreatneil]

Do you have any epic past lives? You can get 36ac there atm, 45 by the time level cap gets up to 30.

None.