Why the Shiradi Hate?

[Roland_D'Arabel]

Please help me to understand this hatred folks have for shiradi casters.

Why, when there are many examples of very powerful builds that can solo EE content, do people think that a shiradi caster is so OP that it should be nerfed? Simple forum and you tube searches provide the evidence of this: barbs soloing WGU, draconic sorcs doing 20K damage with lightning and ice, bards owning EE content, zombie monks, shuriken chuckers, palemasters with DC's in the high 70's, assassins that can kill anything with one push of a button.

The list goes on and on, and in all of those examples there is one commonality: the player behind the build has attained the skill and gear to play the game at a level above the average player.

A shiradi caster is not an easy button. It is a build that can succeed using many different approaches and works well solo or in group, but a player needs to attain the best gear, past lives and skill to play the build in the hardest of content and if they can do that, then they deserve to have an awesomely powerful character.

So why don't people hate on other builds like the ones I mentioned above? Is it a matter of FoTM = Hatred of the Month? Is it ignorance? Bandwagon jumping?

Instead of decrying this build or any other build that people are screaming out to nerf, we should be celebrating the diversity the game offers in allowing us to make many many awesome play styles viable.

Please discuss.

[axel15810]

Because in my opinion, Shirardi (an intended ranger destiny) benefiting casters WAY more is broken. And giving multiple procs on spells like magic missle is in my opinion broken because it allows low level spells to be viable damage dealers in epics which doesn't make sense and allows virtually limitless SP to sorcerers. IMO those spells should only give 1 proc. That said I don't actively hate on those builds. I do think they are exploity however.

[Kalimah]

I dont have an answer for you but I 100% agree with your take on this.

[Kalimah]

Because in my opinion, Shirardi (an intended ranger destiny) benefiting casters WAY more is broken. And giving multiple procs on spells like magic missle is in my opinion broken because it allows low level spells to be viable damage dealers in epics which doesn't make sense and allows virtually limitless SP to sorcerers. IMO those spells should only give 1 proc. That said I don't actively hate on those builds. I do think they are exploity however.

Its just another kind of caster. Instead of 1 shot with death magic or 1 shot with elemental magic you spam multi hit spells for multiple low damage procs (because lets be real the procs are nothing like what you get in Draconic). Play all the different versions and you'll see that same thing.

[Seikojin]

Because in my opinion, Shirardi (an intended ranger destiny) benefiting casters WAY more is broken. And giving multiple procs on spells like magic missle is in my opinion broken because it allows low level spells to be viable damage dealers in epics which doesn't make sense and allows virtually limitless SP to sorcerers. IMO those spells should only give 1 proc. That said I don't actively hate on those builds. I do think they are exploity however.

This. The Destiny itself is prone to abuse when you cast mm at level 20 and get way more than ranged at lvl 20; and the resource cost a a lot lower. And it just gets worse from there. I think 1 set of procs per cast is definitely in line with the destiny and is properly balanced.

And you can first life shiradi power without any special gear.

[Seikojin]

Its just another kind of caster. Instead of 1 shot with death magic or 1 shot with elemental magic you spam multi hit spells for multiple low damage procs (because lets be real the procs are nothing like what you get in Draconic). Play all the different versions and you'll see that same thing.

Its not the damage procs that people savor, it is the free cc procs.

[Blackheartox]

No fail reliable cc, spell points efficiency, huge defenses with simple 2 monk splash, not feat starved, easy entry into ee with maximum efficiency as first lifer, not to dependent on twists, they help but you can play without them.
Compare to necro/draconic that require top notch gear/past lifes/completionist/tomes/hardest attainable gear, maximum number of twists to get those dcs you see in videos to be viable in high end content..
You can basically make a ee viable first life shiradi caster in 4-5 days, for a ee viable necro that can land in horns you need... Several years.
Not realy a wonder why people would hate it.

Il assume that most hate comes from people who worked on their characters for years, they group with a first/2nd lifer that outperforms them in ee content and they vent anger here.

Personaly, only thing i dislike about shiradi casting is the braindamage factor, as its utterly boring to play such a caster.
I prefer draconics where i got several tabs of spells that i use how i want to use em.

For shradi you can basically make a macro to press a 3-6 buttons rotation and do ee content without any issues.

[Chai]

Its the people who TRd lots of times to make DC casting viable back a few years ago, who cant stand the first life shiradi being just as relevant in EE as their multi-life caster they took alot of time repetitively grinding to make more powerful.

[Nédime]

Please help me to understand this hatred folks have for shiradi casters.

Why, when there are many examples of very powerful builds that can solo EE content, do people think that a shiradi caster is so OP that it should be nerfed? Simple forum and you tube searches provide the evidence of this: barbs soloing WGU, draconic sorcs doing 20K damage with lightning and ice, bards owning EE content, zombie monks, shuriken chuckers, palemasters with DC's in the high 70's, assassins that can kill anything with one push of a button.

The list goes on and on, and in all of those examples there is one commonality: the player behind the build has attained the skill and gear to play the game at a level above the average player.

A shiradi caster is not an easy button. It is a build that can succeed using many different approaches and works well solo or in group, but a player needs to attain the best gear, past lives and skill to play the build in the hardest of content and if they can do that, then they deserve to have an awesomely powerful character.

So why don't people hate on other builds like the ones I mentioned above? Is it a matter of FoTM = Hatred of the Month? Is it ignorance? Bandwagon jumping?

Instead of decrying this build or any other build that people are screaming out to nerf, we should be celebrating the diversity the game offers in allowing us to make many many awesome play styles viable.

Please discuss.

So, first of all, Youtube videos mean nothing. Or, to be honnest they mean that a handful of guys are able to do amazing things.
That doesn't mean everyone (lol even with the same build) can do them.

Barbs owning EE WGU, there must be 3 ppl per server able to do this. Bards owning EE ... well maybe a dozen per server.
I wont speak of the zombie monk it's an old video, beating EE VoN1 means nothing (though it inspîred me and I played a Pale monkster once).
Now Draconic bursts. Depends on what content. I'm not sure how many sorcs can land their bursts with 75% chance to hit in EE WGU. Would require at least 3 sorc PL and top gear, with twisted DC augments.

Now top DC assassins and PM are sure powerful but are nothing when they come to the boss, because the special thing they've been build around doesn't work on red names.

Maybe now you see me coming ? Shiradi caster requires ... hum basically nothing, just maxing your ED which can be done through EN runs of whatever. You don't even need uber potency gear ! Halcyon boots or citw staff is good. You don't even need strategy just spam MM/CM/FM. Works on bosses. Doesn't eat mana. And, (my most hated reason) it's institutionalizing randomness : I mean you spam till the 7% occurs and then ... somehting ... happens. Come on. Just like no kids dream of becoming a banker when they grow up, no caster dream of becoming shiradi later - they just do because it's a well paid job.

[Enoach]

I think many have issue with this type of Caster builds because:


It works just as well with First Life as it does a completionist
Outside of Gear to improve Critical chance and Force Spell Power all other gear is flavor and survival
With 2 splash on FvS "Just Rewards" can make MM spamming nearly unlimited due to the constant supply of Temporary Spell points


Now I run with guild members that utilize this type of build and were I notice their strengths is not in getting 15K damage, but being able to constantly fire off lots of projectiles and benefit from the Rainbow/Double Rainbow and Colors of the Queen effects. By also keeping their Crit percentage high they have nearly unlimited fire power. I agree comparing it side by side on a single shot to something like Energy Burst or Dragon's Breath it is not the same damage, but these types of casters will consistently do better in areas where SP regeneration without exiting the quest is limited. EE content burning stuff down will take lots of SP to do or with the shiradi approach, lots of casts.

Personally the best way to curve this as being the ultimate caster is as simple as having appropriate NPCs being smart enough to use Shield/Nightshield spells. Turbine has already added in a high level mob that heals from force as well as random elements keeping all caster types on their toes.

[Teh_Troll]

Now we hate them because of the friggin Adrenaline they give to mobs, but I digress . . .

It's an easy-button. It's not as big of an easy-button as many think it is and it's hardly OP in the current DDO.

[Teh_Troll]

Its the people who TRd lots of times to make DC casting viable back a few years ago, who cant stand the first life shiradi being just as relevant in EE as their multi-life caster they took alot of time repetitively grinding to make more powerful.

In all fairness . . . SHOULD a first-life Shiradi be just as relevant in EE than a multi-life caster that take grinding to build?

[Chai]

In all fairness . . . SHOULD a first-life Shiradi be just as relevant in EE than a multi-life caster that take grinding to build?

In DDO, yes.

If this was a tier raiding grinder, no.

TR lives are alot less of an impact than they were a few years ago. The gear + destiny power creep marginalized those benefits. DPS will always be relevant, which makes shiradi the safer bet.

[unbongwah]

The problem with Shiradi is it's a poorly-balanced ED which enables people to do a end-run around the poorly-balanced difficulty of EEs. Why build a conventional DC-based caster, which may take months or even years to prep with gear, PLs, etc., when you can just exploit no-save Shiradi spam instead?

Nerfing the multi-procs from spells like MM, Firewall, etc. would help re-balance things a bit, but it's still just a Band-Aid. OTOH, if they added, say, a WIS-based DC on the Shiradi procs, you'd see a lot of unhappy arcanes.

[Kalimah]

Its not the damage procs that people savor, it is the free cc procs.

I disagree. The crowd control is alright but I dont savor it by any means. What the advantage of this Shiradi to a caster is the ability to do damage to a wide variety of different stuff. You guys are being far too narrow in your view of what being a shiradi caster is all about. It seems that the folks who have red arse over shiradi casters are the bowers who want their own destiny. Amiright?

[Teh_Troll]

The problem with Shiradi is it's a poorly-balanced ED which enables people to do a end-run around the poorly-balanced difficulty of EEs. Why build a conventional DC-based caster, which may take months or even years to prep with gear, PLs, etc., when you can just exploit no-save Shiradi spam instead?

Nerfing the multi-procs from spells like MM, Firewall, etc. would help re-balance things a bit, but it's still just a Band-Aid. OTOH, if they added, say, a WIS-based DC on the Shiradi procs, you'd see a lot of unhappy arcanes.

No-save procs + mobs having ridiculous saves = broken game.

[jaegarnel]

The problem with Shiradi is it's a poorly-balanced ED which enables people to do a end-run around the poorly-balanced difficulty of EEs. Why build a conventional DC-based caster, which may take months or even years to prep with gear, PLs, etc., when you can just exploit no-save Shiradi spam instead?

Nerfing the multi-procs from spells like MM, Firewall, etc. would help re-balance things a bit, but it's still just a Band-Aid. OTOH, if they added, say, a WIS-based DC on the Shiradi procs, you'd see a lot of unhappy arcanes.

My answer to your question (which was rhetorical I know); because DC-based casters are way more fun.

Personally I TRed my gimped DC-wizard into a Shiradi sorcs mostly out of curiosity, and imo Shiradi's not nearly as OP as people seem to think they are, although they do provide an easy entry into EE for a caster.
But for me the Shiradi thing is just a phase to grind past lives for my caster, I'll go back to a DC wizard eventually, or maybe a nuker sorc. I play for fun after all, and Shiradi is pretty boring to play imo.

[hit_fido]

... it's institutionalizing randomness : I mean you spam till the 7% occurs and then ... somehting ... happens.

Doesn't institutionalized randomness describe every role playing game that uses dice, and every MMO that emulates them? I swing my axe round and round and wait for that 20% or 5% or 2% when... something... happens... like mob loses 50% hp, or level drain, or crit, or lightning strike, or...


With 2 splash on FvS "Just Rewards" can make MM spamming nearly unlimited due to the constant supply of Temporary Spell points

Isn't this the core of the "problem" - a practically endless/regenerative SP pool to fuel not only dps but self healing? Then they went and added sla reconstruct on top of that.

Pre (enhancement pass + sla reconstruct) shiradi vs post (enhancement pass 2-fvs-splash bladeforged), did the former perform nearly so well as the latter? Also didn't they tone down most of the random rainbow procs that happened when eds were first introduced - stuff like the never ending damage that still killed raid bosses well after the party had wiped? I only see what effects proc lately, and they aren't that amazing.

[Nédime]

Nerfing the multi-procs from spells like MM, Firewall, etc. would help re-balance things a bit, but it's still just a Band-Aid.

Didn't they make it only proc on entry for AoEs ?

[Nédime]

Doesn't institutionalized randomness describe every role playing game that uses dice, and every MMO that emulates them? I swing my axe round and round and wait for that 20% or 5% or 2% when... something... happens... like mob loses 50% hp, or level drain, or crit, or lightning strike, or...

No Sir. When you swing a flaming burst Gaxe, you know what kind of something can happen : on a 20 an increased amount of flaming plus extra base damage. No force, sonic, heal, or ham rain.

[hit_fido]

No Sir. When you swing a flaming burst Gaxe, you know what kind of something can happen : on a 20 an increased amount of flaming plus extra base damage. No force, sonic, heal, or ham rain.

So to be clear, you're not upset with people spamming 3-5 or so attack buttons hoping to hit a percentage based proc (because that's what we all frequently do regardless of build), you're upset that the shiradi's percentage based proc is pulled from a list that includes sonic, force, and so on?

[Seikojin]

I disagree. The crowd control is alright but I dont savor it by any means. What the advantage of this Shiradi to a caster is the ability to do damage to a wide variety of different stuff. You guys are being far too narrow in your view of what being a shiradi caster is all about. It seems that the folks who have red arse over shiradi casters are the bowers who want their own destiny. Amiright?

I wasn't speaking on the minority of players (with or without it). I was speaking on the majority I have ran with. Every time they are happy is when they grind a bunch of mobs to death or a halt with their spammed slas and spells. Meh, I am indifferent in the big picture. However in regards to shiradi; it is a fairly easy button and I hope the devs do something about it to bring it where its intention was; proc when you try to do something. Not when your action spawns multiple instances of damage. Likewise, one could say that even for ranged attacks, it should be one time per 'attack' so doubleshot and manyshot should only proc when an arrow is 'used'.

[unbongwah]

Didn't they make it only proc on entry for AoEs ?
It's inconsistent: last time I checked, you could get Shiradi procs on every tic of spells like firewall; but only on the initial tic of spells like Ice Storm. Probably has something to do with how they coded DoT effects.

[Kalimah]

I wasn't speaking on the minority of players (with or without it). I was speaking on the majority I have ran with. Every time they are happy is when they grind a bunch of mobs to death or a halt with their spammed slas and spells. Meh, I am indifferent in the big picture. However in regards to shiradi; it is a fairly easy button and I hope the devs do something about it to bring it where its intention was; proc when you try to do something. Not when your action spawns multiple instances of damage. Likewise, one could say that even for ranged attacks, it should be one time per 'attack' so doubleshot and manyshot should only proc when an arrow is 'used'.

Ok yeah I follow you now. I dont agree though....what in the world would be the point of playing a shiradi if you couldnt get procs. If that was the case just make a sorc or pm and kill rooms of stuff with one button pressed. IMO that is the easy option. Yes, harder to build correctly but easier to play hands down.

[shadowowl]

well I don't hate shiradi but one reason I can see it being a problem for some is very simply because you can make a very strong build with very little effort and it requires very little skill to play it.
to build an equally and actually more powerful caster build using draconic or magister requires a great deal more effort and gear to be good.
when a player that has been playing for years has 20 past lives is geared to the teeth solo's an EE quest many players think wow I want to do that one day.
when I player that has been playing for a few months on a first life or 2nd life shiradi caster does you think *** that's OP
I think it's not that it's OP but rather that the effort to make it powered is lacking.
so basically any build that can be done easy and fast and dominate EE is not going to be especially popular with those that don't like that play style. Again I don't really care it's nice to have something that players that don't like to grind can build to have fun with but that's a reason I think some may 'hate' them.
Personally I prefer DI for sorc.

[Kalimah]

Folks seem to think that all the caster builds who are utilizing the Shiradi epic destiny are all just missle spam. There are so many more ways to skin this cat. If all that a caster is doing is just spamming chain and magic missles then yeah.... But a lot of folks are making builds who primarily use the spam but are viable casters in other ways - your dcs are mid 40's but you have a lot of options in terms of playing your build.

Not everyone is a sorc/paly/fvs missle spammer who uses the shiradi tree. All of us will use a lot of missles but there are a whole lot more things going on (or should be) than that.

[Avenging_Angel]

Why do you get so upset? Just keep using it as long as it's viable, then switch to the new OP astralshard farmer-thing when it comes out.

[SirValentine]

...but are viable casters in other ways - your dcs are mid 40's...


I'd comment on that, but I'm speechless.

[Kalimah]

I'd comment on that, but I'm speechless.

I'd comment on your no comment but I'm also speechless. :)

[Certon]

In all fairness . . . SHOULD a first-life Shiradi be just as relevant in EE than a multi-life caster that take grinding to build?

yes. grinding does not equal skill. grinding equals time spent. not all TR's are better than all first lifers.

[Caliban]

Please help me to understand this hatred folks have for shiradi casters.


Please discuss.

I don't hate them, but playing with them if pretty **** boring. Everything get's insta-paralyzed and just sits there while you beat it down. Might was well be chopping wood. Same thing goes with the high-DC insta-kill casters, except with them I don't even get to swing my sword. At least they can't insta-kill the red names and raid bosses.

One of the reasons I solo a lot on my melee characters - at least I get to use all my characters abilities and feel somewhat useful.

Although lately I don't even play much anymore. EH is a snoozefest, but EE is still out of my league. Grinding to the point where I can do EE just feels pointless.

[Wipey]

I dislike Shiradi, I mean playing one, what others play is not my business really, because it has nothing to do with casting.
Spell points management, spells and mobs knowledge, quest and mechanic knowledge, movement or mob awareness, nothing of that.
See one mob ? MM, MM sla, scorching ray, FM.
See 2 mobs ? Chain Missile, Chain Missile sla
See 2+ mobs ? Sleet, Solid, etc... kite and kite and kite.

Every encounter is the same, it's just arcade game with wasd, jumping and mashing 8 buttons.
Combine evasion, saves, reconstruct, INFINITE sp ( this is just hilarious ), no fail no DC cc, Joy and all together it's just big cheese.

Pimped 400 force " character sheet" Shiradi damage is not so bad, it's not monkcher or Draconic sorc though.

[Kawai]

insecure peops mostly.
nothing new.

[NaturalHazard]

insecure peops mostly.
nothing new.

whats a peops?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Someone makes a build that works well, some copy it because they like things that work well. Other people stick with what they have and resent everyone else.

I remember in the late 90s when cell phones started to become popular, a lot of people I knew would say, but I already have a beeper, why would I need a cell phone. There are still people that resent or dislike cell phones/smart phones and the people that use them.

I bet the same thing happened when the car was invented, all the horse owners got upset.

People are odd *shrugs*

[kwyjibo_lol]

Please help me to understand this hatred folks have for shiradi casters.

Because in a dc based game, there are none in shiradi. It's all just a percentage chance to occur that proc's against every sub-spell (like magic missile), with no chance to boost success through strength of character. The opposite applies, absolutey no chance to mess it up all. Just really lazy programming that was really only ever meant to be good for archery.

I have two completionist characters, my main is a sustainable 70dc enchanter (was 69dc necro, no U-21 gear yet) and my second toon is also a completionist currently doing sorcerer who is part way through the Shiradi tree. And I can absolutely say that Shiradi is a joke. CC is darn hard work on my main necro, but trivial on a Shiradi.

[Seikojin]

Ok yeah I follow you now. I dont agree though....what in the world would be the point of playing a shiradi if you couldnt get procs. If that was the case just make a sorc or pm and kill rooms of stuff with one button pressed. IMO that is the easy option. Yes, harder to build correctly but easier to play hands down.

The difference being that necro dc is a fine line between no fail on ee and being a soulstone. Which takes work. Whereas right now, a shiradi can handle the same quest, same difficulty, without a smidgen of that work. If it was once per cast, then it would at least mean the caster is really spamming spells to land those procs.

They could make it allow procs every X seconds, meaning once one hits, the others do nothing. As developers, they have more options than us players, minus the fact that as soon as they say something, it is set in stone to the players eyes.

[Vint]

I think the people that are crying about them just like to cry. Just think about it right when the Shiradi craze started to grow. The “elitist jerks” were upset that their hard work of multiple past lives were being outdone by a first life toon and the “pugger huggers” were happier than ever that they had a chance to compete in endgame content with everyone else.

Fast forward and the “pugger huggers” are the ones complaining about the very same people that they were just so happy for.

Another important note is that just because/if they were to nerf Shiradi, people are not automatically going to start pugging more frequently. They will find other avenues to go down or simply jump on the next FOTM that comes out.

If people would just play the game and quit b*tching about what others are or are not doing we would be alright.

But, this can’t do. The same people that want everyone to start freely pugging again know that it will never happen and they will just cry and complain because not everyone likes to play the way they think it should be played.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

There have been many comments on this being an easy button. That a first life can do equally as well in EE content. We all know there is a vast difference in difficulty between some EE content and other EE content. Where is the evidence that someone who has only played a few months can solo the hardest content? And if they are soloing some EE content, isn't that a good thing for the game? Do we really have to have a difficulty scale that takes years to attain?

I still think it comes back to player knowledge. A veteran could be a first life shiradi caster and dominate content, the majority of new players could perhaps build the character following one of the many builds on these forums, but I argue they couldn't dominate the hardest content.

A lot of argument that without effort a player shouldn't have a capable character. The "back in my day we had to walk up hill both ways in a blizzard" argument.

Another argument is that shiradi take very little skill to play... if this is a valid reason, then maybe we should nerf fighters. Don't they take very little skill to play? Auto attack ftw? :D But speccing for high stunning blow, all the cleave attacks, moving around the battle field and survivng as a fighter does take skill. Again, it is the player behind the build.

Does everything have to be so complicated it drives all but the most dedicated away? I believe there should be some good entry level builds that allow new players to get into the game. Is this such a bad thing? Years ago, a nuker sorc build was just this thing, I don't remember it getting as much hate though.

To say that it should be changed because it trivializes a lot content is to actually pick a fight with a good deal of the ED's. FotW or dreadnought for most melee classes, GM for monks, draconic and shiradi for casters all trivialize all content below EE and a good deal of EE. ED's won't be changed, though, that horse is long out of the barn.

[RapkintheRanger]

I think the people that are crying about them just like to cry. Just think about it right when the Shiradi craze started to grow. The “elitist jerks” were upset that their hard work of multiple past lives were being outdone by a first life toon and the “pugger huggers” were happier than ever that they had a chance to compete in endgame content with everyone else.

Fast forward and the “pugger huggers” are the ones complaining about the very same people that they were just so happy for.

Another important note is that just because/if they were to nerf Shiradi, people are not automatically going to start pugging more frequently. They will find other avenues to go down or simply jump on the next FOTM that comes out.

If people would just play the game and quit b*tching about what others are or are not doing we would be alright.

But, this can’t do. The same people that want everyone to start freely pugging again know that it will never happen and they will just cry and complain because not everyone likes to play the way they think it should be played.

^ This is the correct answer.

IMO People who complain often have huge advantages as a result of starting much earlier, grinding for longer and getting gear that is no longer available. The same people that would run TR only groups, are now upset that newer players can catch up and play the game as well. Somehow they seem to get the most joy not from playing themselves, but from being able to play content that other people can't. They want to preserve this advantage and that means they want to preserve a two tiered game where they can play and you will struggle.

Therefore a lot of made up reasons to nerf and weaken any play style they don't use and any advantage they don't have.

[kwyjibo_lol]

Folks seem to think that all the caster builds who are utilizing the Shiradi epic destiny are all just missle spam. There are so many more ways to skin this cat. If all that a caster is doing is just spamming chain and magic missles then yeah.... But a lot of folks are making builds who primarily use the spam but are viable casters in other ways - your dcs are mid 40's but you have a lot of options in terms of playing your build.

Not everyone is a sorc/paly/fvs missle spammer who uses the shiradi tree. All of us will use a lot of missles but there are a whole lot more things going on (or should be) than that.

You may say that it is more diverse than the MM types, but it is demonstrably trivial.

[Nédime]

So to be clear, you're not upset with people spamming 3-5 or so attack buttons hoping to hit a percentage based proc (because that's what we all frequently do regardless of build), you're upset that the shiradi's percentage based proc is pulled from a list that includes sonic, force, and so on?

I'm sure if you think twice, and don't try play sophism, you can understand.

[Nédime]

Because in a dc based game, there are none in shiradi. It's all just a percentage chance to occur that proc's against every sub-spell (like magic missile), with no chance to boost success through strength of character. The opposite applies, absolutey no chance to mess it up all. Just really lazy programming that was really only ever meant to be good for archery.



That exactly.


^ This is the correct answer.

IMO People who complain often have huge advantages as a result of starting much earlier, grinding for longer and getting gear that is no longer available. The same people that would run TR only groups, are now upset that newer players can catch up and play the game as well. Somehow they seem to get the most joy not from playing themselves, but from being able to play content that other people can't. They want to preserve this advantage and that means they want to preserve a two tiered game where they can play and you will struggle.

Therefore a lot of made up reasons to nerf and weaken any play style they don't use and any advantage they don't have.

You are wrong. Why would old players not want newcomers ? It's what makes the game alive : fresh blood, fresh cash.
Old players don't fear you, it's not like you are gonna take the loot they have (and btw what is that old loot they have you can no longer have lol ?).
I'm not even saying Sorcery Shiradi is game breaking, I'm saying there's no game in it.

[Turbosilk]

Please help me to understand this hatred folks have for shiradi casters.

Why, when there are many examples of very powerful builds that can solo EE content, do people think that a shiradi caster is so OP that it should be nerfed? Simple forum and you tube searches provide the evidence of this: barbs soloing WGU, draconic sorcs doing 20K damage with lightning and ice, bards owning EE content, zombie monks, shuriken chuckers, palemasters with DC's in the high 70's, assassins that can kill anything with one push of a button.

The list goes on and on, and in all of those examples there is one commonality: the player behind the build has attained the skill and gear to play the game at a level above the average player.

A shiradi caster is not an easy button. It is a build that can succeed using many different approaches and works well solo or in group, but a player needs to attain the best gear, past lives and skill to play the build in the hardest of content and if they can do that, then they deserve to have an awesomely powerful character.

So why don't people hate on other builds like the ones I mentioned above? Is it a matter of FoTM = Hatred of the Month? Is it ignorance? Bandwagon jumping?

Instead of decrying this build or any other build that people are screaming out to nerf, we should be celebrating the diversity the game offers in allowing us to make many many awesome play styles viable.

Please discuss.

Let be clear on this. Prior to the nerfs you could argue Shiradi was OP. Now? Meh, subpar but mana efficient.

This discussion was over months ago.

[hit_fido]

I'm sure if you think twice, and don't try play sophism, you can understand.

I asked you to clarify what part of Shiradi you took issue with, the percentage chance to proc aspect or the choose from list of effects aspect. But this is how you want to play it out? Bravo.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

Let be clear on this. Prior to the nerfs you could argue Shiradi was OP. Now? Meh, subpar but mana efficient.

This discussion was over months ago.

Each to their own opinion but it sure doesn't seem like the discussion was over months ago. Almost daily someone comments on these forums something about hating shiradi or it needing to be nerfed.

[slarden]

Shiradi casters are not overpowered. It's just an easy button build, but not the strongest. I would rate it a 7 on a scale of 1 to monkcher (10)

To be a DC caster it's ideal to have the right past lifes, gear, tomes, fate points, etc. For a shiradi caster all those help, but you are still effective with no past lifes, limited tomes and middle-tier gear. The key word is "effective" and not over-powered.

As far as first life builds, Shiradi still trails monkcher which has some dps loss but is still a great build. It also trails various first life sorc builds that dump DC and rely on a rotation of spells that don't have a save or are based on charisma - energy burst, dragon breath, ruin, polar ray, frost lance, niac's cold ray for example.

A first lfie shiradi does have to work more to get to their final destiny vs. other builds and I think the skill aspect is really over-played in this thread. And of course shiradi casters do have weaknesses - they are near useless against enemies with mantle. They are less effective against enemies with nightshield. Some enemies have force immunity or are healed by force.

The thing that is most notable to me is the importance of a high reflex save and evasion in newer EE content. 2 monk levels help alot of builds with survivability including but certainly not limited to shiradi casters.

[Blackheartox]

Monkchery requires more skill then shiradi casting, always required, always will require

[burningwind]

because it is a range destiny that actually work better for wiz/sorc?? we need a better range destiny..

[Portalcat]

Shiradi casters are:

(A) easy to build, without forcing meaningful many tradeoffs against survivability or much work in terms of gear and past lives
(B) EE-capable
(C) weak against almost nothing because they bypass resistance, DC, and spell pen checks
(D) really just not that skill-intensive to play
(E) account for a large and very noticeable share of endgame toons


In short, they hit a lot of people's pet-peeves. I personally have a DC-caster PM and a Shiradi caster, and the difference in hours it took to get both EE-capable is closer to 2 orders of magnitude than 1, so there's definitely some lingering frustration there.


In terms of actual power versus other EE builds, it's a solid, top-tier build, but it's almost certainly not the strongest among them. The stealth nerfs to double rainbow did a lot to curb the excesses. "Overpowered" isn't a fair description if we're measuring by the actual power of the build relative to other endgame builds.

The better question is if it's balanced or good for the game that you can have this much power so easily compared to other options. That's a more complicated debate, but probably not one that reaches the threshold of justifying a major nerf.




Each to their own opinion but it sure doesn't seem like the discussion was over months ago. Almost daily someone comments on these forums something about hating shiradi or it needing to be nerfed.

It would be a large mistake to assume that this forum is representative of the views of the "top-end" players who would be in a position to know which builds are overpowered. There are a variety of play styles and levels of time commitment, and most players are simply not actively playing EE content.

[Vanhooger]

A proper multi tr sorc/draconic out dps easily a shiradi but hell need lots of work and time to make it viable, lot of resource, feats, skill, twist, precious item slot for evo/ench dc, spell pen for wizzy.

Shiradi: Create a brand new toon today, take it to 20, it work. Just stand still and spam your mm. Everything is nerve venomed, you don't even need to move. No feat involved, skill, resource (cos of unlimited sp), do not need twist, item with dc is useless as well spell pen. Evasion, high ref save if wiz. Reconstruct sla + reconstruct. Semi god.

I am playing a pure fleshy drow sorc 20 on shiradi to get pl for Epic completionist... I feel...so owerpowered, I can zerg most EE content solo,and not becos I'm skilled player.

[pHo3nix]

Each to their own opinion but it sure doesn't seem like the discussion was over months ago. Almost daily someone comments on these forums something about hating shiradi or it needing to be nerfed.

It wasn't over months ago cause people don't know what they are talking about: shiradi was already hit by the nerf hammer more than once. As it currently stands it is just sp efficient and quite easy to gear.

[Nédime]

I asked you to clarify what part of Shiradi you took issue with, the percentage chance to proc aspect or the choose from list of effects aspect. But this is how you want to play it out? Bravo.

Sorry if it sounded aggressive, guess I'm hanging too much here, each time you get quoted it is kinda sarcastic. :D
What disturbs me in shiradi procs is they are random not because of the random chance of triggering (which is part of the game I aggree) but because the effect itselfs is random. One of these days someone will summon stormreaver on a very special proc.

And I'd add, that the worst part of shiradi is it ain't fun to play - which is a major reason why I abandonned it.

[FlameDiablo]

Any good build need a lot of work: good build, good equip, tomes... for example an evo sorc need to have a lot of PL, max DC with tomes and equip, yu have to study monster weakness... if yu don't pay attention to details yur DPS suck coz mobs evade or are immune to yur spells, or simply they rape yu before to cast.
Shirady caster just need low lvl spells and a single ED to be good, the rest is optional. Is probably the only one good build open for all.

Personally i don't agree to shirady nerf, medium player quality is low enought, nerfing easy builds like shirady caster would decrease it more, with builds like shirady noobs got a chance to be useful too.

PS: this is related to EE, for EN/EH any build is good.

[Kalimah]

Each to their own opinion but it sure doesn't seem like the discussion was over months ago. Almost daily someone comments on these forums something about hating shiradi or it needing to be nerfed.

Yes every day people come here and complain about things that they see other people do and which they have no idea how it works or doesnt work..just see the end result and have jelly hate.

[Kalimah]

Because in a dc based game, there are none in shiradi. It's all just a percentage chance to occur that proc's against every sub-spell (like magic missile), with no chance to boost success through strength of character. The opposite applies, absolutey no chance to mess it up all. Just really lazy programming that was really only ever meant to be good for archery.

I have two completionist characters, my main is a sustainable 70dc enchanter (was 69dc necro, no U-21 gear yet) and my second toon is also a completionist currently doing sorcerer who is part way through the Shiradi tree. And I can absolutely say that Shiradi is a joke. CC is darn hard work on my main necro, but trivial on a Shiradi.

Ok thats great but how is the shirdadi tree OP enough that it needs more nerf? Lets be real...its just not all that guys. A well built sorc or wizard is just better at the craft. Shiradi is another take on the caster idea but its not by anymeans OP compared to the other casters..it just IS NOT.

[Vanhooger]

Ok thats great but how is the shirdadi tree OP enough that it needs more nerf? Lets be real...its just not all that guys. A well built sorc or wizard is just better at the craft. Shiradi is another take on the caster idea but its not by anymeans OP compared to the other casters..it just IS NOT.

It's OP because doesnt need any trade off. You have sp efficency, dps, cc no save for free, best self heal, evasion + high ref svae, endless sp, high hp, not feat starved, they can use maximize spell doscount on both tree form wiz and fvs so no additional cost for maximized spell, they dont give a s...t about dc, spell pen, is that enough?

Try a 15wiz/3fvs/2mnk, and tell me it's not overpowered! I know for sure someone not posting in this forum did WGU with that build on EE in something like 26 min.

[Blackheartox]

It's OP because doesnt need any trade off. You have sp efficency, dps, cc no save for free, best self heal, evasion + high ref svae, endless sp, high hp, not feat starved, they can use maximize spell doscount on both tree form wiz and fvs so no additional cost for maximized spell, they dont give a s...t about dc, spell pen, is that enough?

Try a 15wiz/3fvs/2mnk, and tell me it's not overpowered! I know for sure someone not posting in this forum did WGU with that build on EE in something like 26 min.

Well to be precise the "one" who did it is a good player.
But he has proven it to be extremely op, he basicaly zergd on ee one of the hardest to solo quests.
What is the fastest solo here on forums? Like 4o minutes or so?
If he was interested he could post his run here and blow off all those people who say that ISNT overpowerd.

ITs a silly argument to say it isnt.
Monkchery is getting a nerf, so next on list is shiradi casting, i say fair deal.
Since it realy truly is broken, no matter how hard people try to defend it, it is.
Maximum defense without dropping offense.
Cmon, be honest and say that is "balanced"

[Kalimah]

It's OP because doesnt need any trade off. You have sp efficency, dps, cc no save for free, best self heal, evasion + high ref svae, endless sp, high hp, not feat starved, they can use maximize spell doscount on both tree form wiz and fvs so no additional cost for maximized spell, they dont give a s...t about dc, spell pen, is that enough?

Try a 15wiz/3fvs/2mnk, and tell me it's not overpowered! I know for sure someone not posting in this forum did WGU with that build on EE in something like 26 min.

Ok that is the problem- you are speaking about a VERY SPECIFIC type of Shiradi build.

See the issue? You guys make out like every caster who jumps in the Shiradi tree and spams missles are this specific build type. They are not- so the problem most are having here are with caster/fvs/mk builds using Shiradi.

And I agree, they are beastly. But the idea that everyone using Shiradi is OP because a specific type of build is just stupid.

[Kalimah]

Monkchery is getting a nerf, so next on list is shiradi casting, i say fair deal.
Since it realy truly is broken, no matter how hard people try to defend it, it is.
Maximum defense without dropping offense.
Cmon, be honest and say that is "balanced"

The answer is not to take away the Shiradi tree's effectivness for a caster class- the answer is stop the OP ability of that specific split.

[Vanhooger]

Well to be precise the "one" who did it is a good player.
But he has proven it to be extremely op, he basicaly zergd on ee one of the hardest to solo quests.
What is the fastest solo here on forums? Like 4o minutes or so?
If he was interested he could post his run here and blow off all those people who say that ISNT overpowerd.

ITs a silly argument to say it isnt.
Monkchery is getting a nerf, so next on list is shiradi casting, i say fair deal.
Since it realy truly is broken, no matter how hard people try to defend it, it is.
Maximum defense without dropping offense.
Cmon, be honest and say that is "balanced"

Sorry the time is 27 min not 26 sry! If you dont belive me ill send you a PM with screenshot.
Indeed, he's a really good player but shiradi is OP.

[Blackheartox]

Ok that is the problem- you are speaking about a VERY SPECIFIC type of Shiradi build.

See the issue? You guys make out like every caster who jumps in the Shiradi tree and spams missles are this specific build type. They are not- so the problem most are having here are with caster/fvs/mk builds using Shiradi.

And I agree, they are beastly. But the idea that everyone using Shiradi is OP because a specific type of build is just stupid.

Issue comes that on most builds that utilize shiradi casting, you can stop with arcane splash once you get lv 3 spells.
Reason to go higher, is for more caster levels, more procs (more missiles from higher spell level), maybe some more aoes.
You dont need any dc casting feats to make it work, you can do whatever you want with the leftover levels.
People pick monk/palie depending if sorc/wizzy.
Apsolute unbroken defense, with maximum offense.
That is power of multiclasing and you gain that ability because the shiradi tree has to much of a synergy with arcanes and its frontloaded with power and doesnt depend at all at heroic part, on base.
As a destiny, it is insanely synergetic with arcanes, to the point that it makes no sense.
Requires nerf?
Even if you didnt multiclass it would be strong on arcanes.
Since it has cheap spell points requirement for "no fail" cc and damage procs.
1 proc per spell = fair
1 proc every seconds = fair
dc check on nerve venom = fair

1 cheap magic missile sla fully metad, that can proc a no fail stun and random damage/whatever procs on every single missile and is spamable in rotation with other multi missile spells= not fair

[Blackheartox]

Sorry the time is 27 min not 26 sry! If you dont belive me ill send you a PM with screenshot.
Indeed, he's a really good player but shiradi is OP.

I thin i know who he is, simple question is he from ordo?

[Vanhooger]

The answer is not to take away the Shiradi tree's effectivness for a caster class- the answer is stop the OP ability of that specific split.

Most people now is playing 16wiz/2fvs/2mnk, do you think it make big difference?

[Vanhooger]

I thin i know who he is, simple question is he from ordo?

yes

[jaegarnel]

It's OP because doesnt need any trade off. You have sp efficency, dps, cc no save for free, best self heal, evasion + high ref svae, endless sp, high hp, not feat starved, they can use maximize spell doscount on both tree form wiz and fvs so no additional cost for maximized spell, they dont give a s...t about dc, spell pen, is that enough?

Try a 15wiz/3fvs/2mnk, and tell me it's not overpowered! I know for sure someone not posting in this forum did WGU with that build on EE in something like 26 min.

So by your own admission, what's actually OP is the synergy between caster/fvs splits and the Shiradi ED, not Shiradi itself.

I'm playing a 18/2 sorc/pally build atm, and DI is about as powerful as Shiradi on it imo. DI is a lot more DPS against mobs without huge reflex saves and evasion, while Shiradi has built in CC and slightly better defences. So the only thing Shiradi does is to allow that character to contribute decently in EEs, while I'd need better gear and more past lives to contribute in the harder EEs with DI. I don't really see how it's that gamebreaking.

[Vanhooger]

So by your own admission, what's actually OP is the synergy between caster/fvs splits and the Shiradi ED, not Shiradi itself.

I'm playing a 18/2 sorc/pally build atm, and DI is about as powerful as Shiradi on it imo. DI is a lot more DPS against mobs without huge reflex saves and evasion, while Shiradi has built in CC and slightly better defences. So the only thing Shiradi does is to allow that character to contribute decently in EEs, while I'd need better gear and more past lives to contribute in the harder EEs with DI. I don't really see how it's that gamebreaking.

I'm actually playing a 20 fleshy sorc on shiradi just for pl, and I can zerg most EE content with no problem and again not because of my wonderful skill, there are plenty of people way way better then me in game...it's just the shiradi thing.

DI is way more powerful than shiradi, but at least have some sort of tradeoff.

[Kalimah]

Nerf everything for all I care. If it becomes no fun I will be like everyone else I "knew" who "played" DDO. I'll find somethign that is fun.

Honestly, the Shiradi thing isnt a big deal to me. I only use it to stack past lives. A real caster is much more powerful (excuding that fvs splash version which no one questions is op).

Its just frustrating to me that every other gd thread on this board is about taking away, taking away, taking away. Its like we've been brainwashed to accept the rotating requirements and allowances so that we can constantly be forced to scrap ideas and start over. That mentality plays right into Chai's biggest push. Hell we dont only allow monetizing of the game we DEMAND it here.

Im not peeing on you guys discussing this so dont be offended but it does become concerning when so many people want to take things away from others so that they can enjoy the game more. As long as the game doesnt become unplayable for solo or small units I'm fine with it but once they shunt those kind of players out of enjoying the game then those players will be gone and it will be even more of a ghost town than it is now.

[kned225]

not fair


Two little words, so much trouble

[Vanhooger]

Nerf everything for all I care. If it becomes no fun I will be like everyone else I "knew" who "played" DDO. I'll find somethign that is fun.

Honestly, the Shiradi thing isnt a big deal to me. I only use it to stack past lives. A real caster is much more powerful (excuding that fvs splash version which no one questions is op).

Its just frustrating to me that every other gd thread on this board is about taking away, taking away, taking away. Its like we've been brainwashed to accept the rotating requirements and allowances so that we can constantly be forced to scrap ideas and start over. That mentality plays right into Chai's biggest push. Hell we dont only allow monetizing of the game we DEMAND it here.

Im not peeing on you guys discussing this so dont be offended but it does become concerning when so many people want to take things away from others so that they can enjoy the game more. As long as the game doesnt become unplayable for solo or small units I'm fine with it but once they shunt those kind of players out of enjoying the game then those players will be gone and it will be even more of a ghost town than it is now.

I don't take things away from others. I do paly shiradi too, but can we please just be honest sometimes and say it's OP? Nobody like, nerfs, so buff othe build?

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Shiradi casters are:

(A) easy to build, without forcing meaningful many tradeoffs against survivability or much work in terms of gear and past lives
(B) EE-capable
(C) weak against almost nothing because they bypass resistance, DC, and spell pen checks
(D) really just not that skill-intensive to play
(E) account for a large and very noticeable share of endgame toons


It's an easy button.

I don't think that's wrong in and of itself. It's effectiveness is out of proportion to player skill or effort; it's Chun-Li's lightning kick- cheesy but not gamebreaking. The problem lies in making "I spent 9 lives on this toon and it's now viable" or "personal preference" the only reasons to play a different caster build. It's partly a symptom of how EE was designed, and partly the result of the development and testing process (i.e. not enough warm bodies, and feedback?LOL).

I don't really care to see it nerfed unless both EDs and EE numbers can be balanced.. if that's even possible at this juncture.

[Blackheartox]

Nerf everything for all I care. If it becomes no fun I will be like everyone else I "knew" who "played" DDO. I'll find somethign that is fun.

Honestly, the Shiradi thing isnt a big deal to me. I only use it to stack past lives. A real caster is much more powerful (excuding that fvs splash version which no one questions is op).

Its just frustrating to me that every other gd thread on this board is about taking away, taking away, taking away. Its like we've been brainwashed to accept the rotating requirements and allowances so that we can constantly be forced to scrap ideas and start over. That mentality plays right into Chai's biggest push. Hell we dont only allow monetizing of the game we DEMAND it here.

Im not peeing on you guys discussing this so dont be offended but it does become concerning when so many people want to take things away from others so that they can enjoy the game more. As long as the game doesnt become unplayable for solo or small units I'm fine with it but once they shunt those kind of players out of enjoying the game then those players will be gone and it will be even more of a ghost town than it is now.

I said to myself, time to give up on ddo is when bards/paldins become best options to play in high end content.
Luckily that didnt happen for the past 6-7 years lol

[Kalimah]

Haha yeah true that lord help us all when that goes down :D

[Teh_Troll]

It's OP because doesnt need any trade off.

The same can be said of ALL the FoTM builds that are brokenly OP. Splashing used to lose you offense to gain defense, evasion, saves, etc . . . now splashing gains you defense AND increases your offense.

That's broken.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

Shiradi casters are:

(A) easy to build, without forcing meaningful many tradeoffs against survivability or much work in terms of gear and past lives
(B) EE-capable
(C) weak against almost nothing because they bypass resistance, DC, and spell pen checks
(D) really just not that skill-intensive to play
(E) account for a large and very noticeable share of endgame toons


In short, they hit a lot of people's pet-peeves. I personally have a DC-caster PM and a Shiradi caster, and the difference in hours it took to get both EE-capable is closer to 2 orders of magnitude than 1, so there's definitely some lingering frustration there.


In terms of actual power versus other EE builds, it's a solid, top-tier build, but it's almost certainly not the strongest among them. The stealth nerfs to double rainbow did a lot to curb the excesses. "Overpowered" isn't a fair description if we're measuring by the actual power of the build relative to other endgame builds.

The better question is if it's balanced or good for the game that you can have this much power so easily compared to other options. That's a more complicated debate, but probably not one that reaches the threshold of justifying a major nerf.





It would be a large mistake to assume that this forum is representative of the views of the "top-end" players who would be in a position to know which builds are overpowered. There are a variety of play styles and levels of time commitment, and most players are simply not actively playing EE content.


I agree with most of what you have written here, except your last statement. I don't think it is relevant specifically what only "top-end" players think. It is more relevant how perception and misconception spread throughout the entire game community, not only about shiradi but other things as well. Whispers of hatred and over powered towards a specific build or play style pick up momentum and take on a life of their own sometime, becoming less about fact and more about mob mentality.

[Portalcat]

The "specific class split" argument that some posters have been making is nonsense. There are about a dozen different class splits that I've seen people defend for different reasons, and it's a preference thing - none of them are wildly above and beyond the others.



(excuding that fvs splash version which no one questions is op)

No. The FvS splash is very good, but it's ultimately expendable. Magic missile is cheap to begin with.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

That mentality plays right into Chai's biggest push. Hell we dont only allow monetizing of the game we DEMAND it here.



Oh no! :D We managed four pages of discussion without bringing up P2W / monetization. Let's leave that conversation for another thread!

[Vanhooger]

The "specific class split" argument that some posters have been making is nonsense. There are about a dozen different class splits that I've seen people defend for different reasons, and it's a preference thing - none of them are wildly above and beyond the others.




No. The FvS splash is very good, but it's ultimately expendable. Magic missile is cheap to begin with.

Dont even neeed to split, it's OP even on pure 20 sorc. What is nonsense for you?

[Eth]

I rarely ever see people play in shiradi on an arcane class. Is this still a thing?

[Vanhooger]

I rarely ever see people play in shiradi on an arcane class. Is this still a thing?

At least Cannith is full o shiradi caster

[Seikojin]

Issue comes that on most builds that utilize shiradi casting, you can stop with arcane splash once you get lv 3 spells.
Reason to go higher, is for more caster levels, more procs (more missiles from higher spell level), maybe some more aoes.
You dont need any dc casting feats to make it work, you can do whatever you want with the leftover levels.
People pick monk/palie depending if sorc/wizzy.
Apsolute unbroken defense, with maximum offense.
That is power of multiclasing and you gain that ability because the shiradi tree has to much of a synergy with arcanes and its frontloaded with power and doesnt depend at all at heroic part, on base.
As a destiny, it is insanely synergetic with arcanes, to the point that it makes no sense.
Requires nerf?
Even if you didnt multiclass it would be strong on arcanes.
Since it has cheap spell points requirement for "no fail" cc and damage procs.
1 proc per spell = fair
1 proc every seconds = fair
dc check on nerve venom = fair

1 cheap magic missile sla fully metad, that can proc a no fail stun and random damage/whatever procs on every single missile and is spamable in rotation with other multi missile spells= not fair
TRUTH!


Nerf everything for all I care. If it becomes no fun I will be like everyone else I "knew" who "played" DDO. I'll find somethign that is fun.

Honestly, the Shiradi thing isnt a big deal to me. I only use it to stack past lives. A real caster is much more powerful (excuding that fvs splash version which no one questions is op).

Its just frustrating to me that every other gd thread on this board is about taking away, taking away, taking away. Its like we've been brainwashed to accept the rotating requirements and allowances so that we can constantly be forced to scrap ideas and start over. That mentality plays right into Chai's biggest push. Hell we dont only allow monetizing of the game we DEMAND it here.

Im not peeing on you guys discussing this so dont be offended but it does become concerning when so many people want to take things away from others so that they can enjoy the game more. As long as the game doesnt become unplayable for solo or small units I'm fine with it but once they shunt those kind of players out of enjoying the game then those players will be gone and it will be even more of a ghost town than it is now.
I for one am one of the bigger pushers for building up power. If the gap is as dramatic as it is however with the current rate of proc attempts that shiradi casting offers; that is to me, to far to close with proper creep. They might as well allow it to proc on melee attacks too.


The same can be said of ALL the FoTM builds that are brokenly OP. Splashing used to lose you offense to gain defense, evasion, saves, etc . . . now splashing gains you defense AND increases your offense.

That's broken.
TRUTH! :)

[Blackheartox]

I rarely ever see people play in shiradi on an arcane class. Is this still a thing?

Its soon for shuri nerfs xD

Not even half enhancments work with shuris!

First i want em to fix enhancments, then let it like that for couple months, before people realize.
Or rather couple years, we had the benefit of adrenaline slaying for a long time

[elcagador]

Without shiradi procs, most of the casters would be almost useless on most of the raids and long shortman or solo quests where sp bar is just not enough playing in draconic or magister (unless you get lot of gear and resources, not available for most of the ppl). Also a well shiradi caster requires at least to grind most of epic destinies to be able to twist energy burst or sense of weakness, getting Etrs for energy criticals, colors of the queen is not required but would be good and even getting some useful spell dc's in shiradi destiny.

[Teh_Troll]

Its soon for shuri nerfs xD


It's never too soon to nerf monks.

[Seikojin]

Without shiradi procs, most of the casters would be almost useless on most of the raids and long shortman or solo quests where sp bar is just not enough playing in draconic or magister (unless you get lot of gear and resources, not available for most of the ppl). Also a well shiradi caster requires at least to grind most of epic destinies to be able to twist energy burst or sense of weakness, getting Etrs for energy criticals, colors of the queen is not required but would be good and even getting some useful spell dc's in shiradi destiny.

The usefulness of shiradi for casters would not decrease dramatically if it was 1x per spell cast, not 1x per spell damage as it is now.

[Kalimah]

The usefulness of shiradi for casters would not decrease dramatically if it was 1x per spell cast, not 1x per spell damage as it is now.

Hey uh..no offense but..you sir are off your rocker if you believe that :D

[vengfarga]

The usefulness of shiradi for casters would not decrease dramatically if it was 1x per spell cast, not 1x per spell damage as it is now.

Wildly inaccurate statement ... but not a wildly unreasonable way to nerf Shiradi casters without nerfing the rangers, artis, rog mechs and so on, who have opted not to build towards use of the current "features" available from monk'ing about in fotw, and who would get nerfed yet further by any other kind of Shiradi splattering.

[Buffyanne]

A first life off the boat character should never outperform casters that have been in the game for years. It is a total easy button and needs a serious nerf. At the same time you can totally discount them because it takes no skill to play a shiradi caster so any feat they accomplish is irrelevant to me. I don't mind piking quests they are in though so I guess they do server some purpose.

[Gremmlynn]

Someone makes a build that works well, some copy it because they like things that work well. Other people stick with what they have and resent everyone else.

I remember in the late 90s when cell phones started to become popular, a lot of people I knew would say, but I already have a beeper, why would I need a cell phone. There are still people that resent or dislike cell phones/smart phones and the people that use them.

I bet the same thing happened when the car was invented, all the horse owners got upset.

People are odd *shrugs*Good analogies, except it doesn't take into account that DDO is a game and this sort of thing obsolesces a lot of the rest of the game. So entering that car into the Kentucky Derby getting the horse owners upset would fit better. Suddenly, it's a car race and no longer a horse race.

[Ancient]

A first life off the boat character should never outperform casters that have been in the game for years. It is a total easy button and needs a serious nerf. At the same time you can totally discount them because it takes no skill to play a shiradi caster so any feat they accomplish is irrelevant to me. I don't mind piking quests they are in though so I guess they do server some purpose.

The fact a caster has been in the game for years is not a free ticket to be uber. If shiradi was such an easy button then every shiradi player would get kills at the same rate and survive the same.... they don't. Just because you don't appreciate the build doesn't mean it doesn't have a use.

I think they need to nerf DC casting and shuri throwers.

[BigErkyKid]

I have played both DC casters and shiradi in epics.

I rolled a spam machine Shiradi build on a second life sorc just to test it and it is OP, if you define OP as the effort / output ratio comparison between builds.

The game, for casters, is balanced around DCs. Any caster that can get powerful and sustainable effects without DCs will be OP. And given the huge DCs needed for end game, I can see why people gravitated towards this no DC builds.

A well geared / well build draconic sorc can top a shiradi spammer any day, but it will take a lot more effort (read grind) to create. An awful amount of effort, compared to the shiradi.

To me, this points out how allowing any class to choose any ED may have been a mistake (besides twists). To take the two most hated combinations, I think it is fairly obvious that FOTW and Shiradi were balanced around barbarians and archers.

No barbarian can get nearly as much damage from unbridled fury and no archer can throw 10 arrows at the same time with maximal spell power to get huge numbers from the procs. I highly doubt the devs anticipated what ended up happening with those abilities.

[Eth]

Without shiradi procs, most of the casters would be almost useless on most of the raids and long shortman or solo quests where sp bar is just not enough playing in draconic or magister (unless you get lot of gear and resources, not available for most of the ppl). Also a well shiradi caster requires at least to grind most of epic destinies to be able to twist energy burst or sense of weakness, getting Etrs for energy criticals, colors of the queen is not required but would be good and even getting some useful spell dc's in shiradi destiny.
Well said. That's exactly why my caster uses shiradi as his main destiny.
I do have good DCs (in the 60s). But I solo/shortman a lot and I always play my builds to absolutely avoid using SP potions in 'normal' gameplay. While draconic could net me some even better DCs, most of the boss fights in EEs just become a PITA when it comes to SP managment.

[Nestroy]

(...)
The game, for casters, is balanced around DCs. Any caster that can get powerful and sustainable effects without DCs will be OP. And given the huge DCs needed for end game, I can see why people gravitated towards this no DC builds.

A well geared / well build draconic sorc can top a shiradi spammer any day, but it will take a lot more effort (read grind) to create. An awful amount of effort, compared to the shiradi.

To me, this points out how allowing any class to choose any ED may have been a mistake (besides twists). To take the two most hated combinations, I think it is fairly obvious that FOTW and Shiradi were balanced around barbarians and archers.

No barbarian can get nearly as much damage from unbridled fury and no archer can throw 10 arrows at the same time with maximal spell power to get huge numbers from the procs. I highly doubt the devs anticipated what ended up happening with those abilities.

This 3 times over.

Shiradi was ment to be an ED for archers and ranged combat. It became the main ED for casters that looked for the easy button. The main ED for ranged combat became FotW - we all know why. FotW should have been a melee ED originally... The logical fix for Shiradi would be to limit several rainbow/double rainbow/ prism stance / nerve venom and the like effects to ranged combat as it would have been logical originally. No use for offensive spells except the +x to spellpower where it is in the description (e-g- stand and deliver). With FotW back working primarly for melee, this would leave PA to work best for casters (and druids^^) from the primal EDs... And it would make a lot of builds very much less op, actually.

[slarden]

Nerf everything for all I care. If it becomes no fun I will be like everyone else I "knew" who "played" DDO. I'll find somethign that is fun.

Honestly, the Shiradi thing isnt a big deal to me. I only use it to stack past lives. A real caster is much more powerful (excuding that fvs splash version which no one questions is op).

Its just frustrating to me that every other gd thread on this board is about taking away, taking away, taking away. Its like we've been brainwashed to accept the rotating requirements and allowances so that we can constantly be forced to scrap ideas and start over. That mentality plays right into Chai's biggest push. Hell we dont only allow monetizing of the game we DEMAND it here.

Im not peeing on you guys discussing this so dont be offended but it does become concerning when so many people want to take things away from others so that they can enjoy the game more. As long as the game doesnt become unplayable for solo or small units I'm fine with it but once they shunt those kind of players out of enjoying the game then those players will be gone and it will be even more of a ghost town than it is now.

This only comes up because a first-lifer - new /casual player can make this character and be effective (effective - not overpowered by any means). There is a group of people on these forums that make it their life mission to make the game harder for casuals and new players.

Why? They probably don't even know because it's not a rational thing.

[slarden]

Without shiradi procs, most of the casters would be almost useless on most of the raids and long shortman or solo quests where sp bar is just not enough playing in draconic or magister (unless you get lot of gear and resources, not available for most of the ppl). Also a well shiradi caster requires at least to grind most of epic destinies to be able to twist energy burst or sense of weakness, getting Etrs for energy criticals, colors of the queen is not required but would be good and even getting some useful spell dc's in shiradi destiny.

To me this is one of the things I like most about Shiradi. You can make other types of casters and situationally switch to Shiradi if DCs aren't working in a certain quest or your main element is less effective - e.g., cold in break in the ice. I shelved my PM completely until the enhancement revamp which allowed me to take the archmage line so I can use shiradi as a backup. Again, it was a backup because draconic was much better - but if heading to stormhorns I would switch to shiradi because it was more effective even with a DC that was within 1 of the max, used debuffs, etc.

[slarden]

This 3 times over.

Shiradi was ment to be an ED for archers and ranged combat. It became the main ED for casters that looked for the easy button. The main ED for ranged combat became FotW - we all know why. FotW should have been a melee ED originally... The logical fix for Shiradi would be to limit several rainbow/double rainbow/ prism stance / nerve venom and the like effects to ranged combat as it would have been logical originally. No use for offensive spells except the +x to spellpower where it is in the description (e-g- stand and deliver). With FotW back working primarly for melee, this would leave PA to work best for casters (and druids^^) from the primal EDs... And it would make a lot of builds very much less op, actually.

The difference is that fury of the wild specifically states "melee" in the description in certain places, but works with ranged. We don't know if the description is bugged or if it's not WAI.

For the shiradi proc, some abilities only work with ranged and some work with range and spells. The descriptions do match what is actually happening in game unlike fury of the wild (as far as I know - haven't tested all). And Shiradi doesn't work all that bad for ranged either - especially if you build specifically to take advantage of what shiradi has to offer. In a static group, you will get much better cc from a monkcher than a caster with shiradi because the # of arrows with 10k and manyshot far exceed what can be cast by an arcane. It's just the fury is so nice for massive burst dps that is what most ranged toons choose.

Overall I would say the destiny does work better for ranged, it's just most people prefer the burst dps option for bosses. Just try running a monkcher with a 4 rogue splash combining sense weakness and no mercy which stack and you will see just how awesome it is. Throw in the tier 3 improved paralyzing bow from the cannith challenges and you have an extremely effective EE mob control character right at level 20. The destiny is quite awesome for ranged, but fury is better for bosses.

[slarden]

The fact a caster has been in the game for years is not a free ticket to be uber. If shiradi was such an easy button then every shiradi player would get kills at the same rate and survive the same.... they don't. Just because you don't appreciate the build doesn't mean it doesn't have a use.

I think they need to nerf DC casting and shuri throwers.

Shuri throwers don't need a nerf, but favorable game bugs definitely play a big role in why they are being played so much now.

[Vanhooger]

The fact a caster has been in the game for years is not a free ticket to be uber. If shiradi was such an easy button then every shiradi player would get kills at the same rate and survive the same.... they don't. Just because you don't appreciate the build doesn't mean it doesn't have a use.

I think they need to nerf DC casting and shuri throwers.

I think you play a different MMO dude. Yes nerf dc casting, because it's so easy to achieve a decent DC caster. I'll say buff Shiradi! Ahahahaha, lol....

If you are bad player you die, no matter how ovepowered is your build.

[Gremmlynn]

Ok thats great but how is the shirdadi tree OP enough that it needs more nerf? Lets be real...its just not all that guys. A well built sorc or wizard is just better at the craft. Shiradi is another take on the caster idea but its not by anymeans OP compared to the other casters..it just IS NOT.The tree doesn't need a nerf. The mechanics could use one though. One proc per cast would be a good start. Could also tie proc effect to spell level or have a spell based cool down on the procs, say 30 seconds for each particular spell.

Something to make one of the more viable EE builds something other than a glorified level 1 arcane caster basically spamming it's one spell, or derivatives thereof (magic missile, cheap magic missile, big magic missile, etc.). Really dumbs down the game more than most things that are described that way here.

[Standal]

This 3 times over.

Shiradi was ment to be an ED for archers and ranged combat. It became the main ED for casters that looked for the easy button. The main ED for ranged combat became FotW - we all know why. FotW should have been a melee ED originally... The logical fix for Shiradi would be to limit several rainbow/double rainbow/ prism stance / nerve venom and the like effects to ranged combat as it would have been logical originally. No use for offensive spells except the +x to spellpower where it is in the description (e-g- stand and deliver). With FotW back working primarly for melee, this would leave PA to work best for casters (and druids^^) from the primal EDs... And it would make a lot of builds very much less op, actually.

Given that most Shiradi abilities have always been for ranged attacks or offensive spells, why do you think it was not meant for casters. It was obviously meant for casters as well as archers. You can argue that it's OP without just making stuff up.

[Nédime]

The fact a caster has been in the game for years is not a free ticket to be uber.

By playing a charcater for year do you mean acumulating PL, gear and game skills ? If yes, then yes it's a NOT free ticket to be uber. Not free because it takes years.



I think they need to nerf DC casting and shuri throwers.
I'll quote you : Just because you don't appreciate the build doesn't mean it doesn't have a use.

[BigErkyKid]

I highly doubt that the devs had in mind cheap multi missile spells when they designed shiradi. As a hint of what they had in mind, see the classes that can initially take it

6 levels of Barbarian
6 levels of Ranger
6 levels of Druid

And FOTW is not only unbridled fury, adrenaline charges very nicely with 10K stars and manyshot. Adrenaline and slayer arrow...

I think that it is obviously more powerful for an archer than for a melee. Even though this was meant to be a melee ED

This Primal Epic Destiny allows characters to take a variety of personal defensive options to stand longer in the face of overwhelming odds. In addition, it enables melee characters to deal huge amounts of physical damage and use some of the mightiest attacks and two-handed fighting abilities possible. When a Fury begins raging, enemies will either flee or be annihilated.

For Shiradi, it is clearly OP in terms of effort / competitivity.

The problem is that these builds have encroached so much that now they are hard to take down.

Conclusion, dont allow for things you haven t thouroughly tested and balanced. They balanced EDs around their main classes, I don t think they tested them out of their target builds. And now we have monkchers soloing EE FoT, which I regard as a major failure of the game.

[Nestroy]

Given that most Shiradi abilities have always been for ranged attacks or offensive spells, why do you think it was not meant for casters. It was obviously meant for casters as well as archers. You can argue that it's OP without just making stuff up.

I do not make stuff up. The ED originally was presented to augment Ranger Archer and Ranger Spells = Arcane Archery. So the Sorc / Wiz op augmentation was a side effect of a well ment try to make good on the Ranger class that before enhancement pass and EDs was mainly played as twf melee class. Well, Shiradi works perfectly well as Epic Arcane Archery destiny. Alas, it works even better for the Sorc / Wiz MM spammer.

All the EDs were originally ment to represent an epic version of certain heroic enhancement pathes. Alas, most were just abyssmal bad for the heroic pathes they were ment for. But in combination with splashes and certain munchkining from different pathes and classes they really started to shine. But I would suspect most of the EDs are just not used for what they were originally ment. (Edited) The devs let a monster out of the box and now do not know how to limit the damage they have done to the game.

By the way, EE being what it is now is the direct result of the wronggoing ED fiasco. They tried everything to keep EE a challenge, so they beefed up whatever they threw against us into insanity. All they did with this was to even further the big abyss between "builds as they are meant to be played" and "fotms" that are uber. It only shows that we, the player base, are always at least one step ahead of the devs when gaining an advantage on game mechanics is concerend. The "classical" pnp builds remain dead in the track with such a fiasco, though.

Edit:

I highly doubt that the devs had in mind cheap multi missile spells when they designed shiradi. As a hint of what they had in mind, see the classes that can initially take it

6 levels of Barbarian
6 levels of Ranger
6 levels of Druid

And FOTW is not only unbridled fury, adrenaline charges very nicely with 10K stars and manyshot. Adrenaline and slayer arrow...

I think that it is obviously more powerful for an archer than for a melee. Even though this was meant to be a melee ED

This Primal Epic Destiny allows characters to take a variety of personal defensive options to stand longer in the face of overwhelming odds. In addition, it enables melee characters to deal huge amounts of physical damage and use some of the mightiest attacks and two-handed fighting abilities possible. When a Fury begins raging, enemies will either flee or be annihilated.

For Shiradi, it is clearly OP in terms of effort / competitivity.

The problem is that these builds have encroached so much that now they are hard to take down.

Conclusion, dont allow for things you haven t thouroughly tested and balanced. They balanced EDs around their main classes, I don t think they tested them out of their target builds. And now we have monkchers soloing EE FoT, which I regard as a major failure of the game.

I completely forgot that in the beginning the EDs were fixed to certain minimum clases! well, it only shows how fast the game develops. There was a big outcry from the playerbase to make EDs farmable for all classes, then. And look what we got!

[Seikojin]

Hey uh..no offense but..you sir are off your rocker if you believe that :D


Wildly inaccurate statement ... but not a wildly unreasonable way to nerf Shiradi casters without nerfing the rangers, artis, rog mechs and so on, who have opted not to build towards use of the current "features" available from monk'ing about in fotw, and who would get nerfed yet further by any other kind of Shiradi splattering.


The usefulness of shiradi for casters would not decrease dramatically if it was 1x per spell cast, not 1x per spell damage as it is now.

I am coming from a top down mindset believing that the intention for Shiradi procs was supposed to be per cast, not per damage. It is ludicrous to look at it the way it is from a designer perspective and think that is good design. The only reason it is in there the way it is now would be because it was easier to code and produced less bugs,


I have played both DC casters and shiradi in epics.

I rolled a spam machine Shiradi build on a second life sorc just to test it and it is OP, if you define OP as the effort / output ratio comparison between builds.

The game, for casters, is balanced around DCs. Any caster that can get powerful and sustainable effects without DCs will be OP. And given the huge DCs needed for end game, I can see why people gravitated towards this no DC builds.

A well geared / well build draconic sorc can top a shiradi spammer any day, but it will take a lot more effort (read grind) to create. An awful amount of effort, compared to the shiradi.

To me, this points out how allowing any class to choose any ED may have been a mistake (besides twists). To take the two most hated combinations, I think it is fairly obvious that FOTW and Shiradi were balanced around barbarians and archers.

No barbarian can get nearly as much damage from unbridled fury and no archer can throw 10 arrows at the same time with maximal spell power to get huge numbers from the procs. I highly doubt the devs anticipated what ended up happening with those abilities.

I originally thought any class rolling any ed was OP, but after toying with various builds and ed combos on lam, I like the options.

[Blackheartox]

I am coming from a top down mindset believing that the intention for Shiradi procs was supposed to be per cast, not per damage. It is ludicrous to look at it the way it is from a designer perspective and think that is good design. The only reason it is in there the way it is now would be because it was easier to code and produced less bugs,



I originally thought any class rolling any ed was OP, but after toying with various builds and ed combos on lam, I like the options.

So you quote yourself to say its ludi..
Using your own words to ..
You try to...

Wait, im kinda mindblown right now, back to afking til ban is lifted, brain is damaged now quite hardly

[slarden]

I do not make stuff up. The ED originally was presented to augment Ranger Archer and Ranger Spells = Arcane Archery. So the Sorc / Wiz op augmentation was a side effect of a well ment try to make good on the Ranger class that before enhancement pass and EDs was mainly played as twf melee class. Well, Shiradi works perfectly well as Epic Arcane Archery destiny. Alas, it works even better for the Sorc / Wiz MM spammer.

All the EDs were originally ment to represent an epic version of certain heroic enhancement pathes. Alas, most were just abyssmal bad for the heroic pathes they were ment for. But in combination with splashes and certain munchkining from different pathes and classes they really started to shine. But I would suspect most of the EDs are just not used for what they were originally ment. (Edited) The devs let a monster out of the box and now do not know how to limit the damage they have done to the game.

By the way, EE being what it is now is the direct result of the wronggoing ED fiasco. They tried everything to keep EE a challenge, so they beefed up whatever they threw against us into insanity. All they did with this was to even further the big abyss between "builds as they are meant to be played" and "fotms" that are uber. It only shows that we, the player base, are always at least one step ahead of the devs when gaining an advantage on game mechanics is concerend. The "classical" pnp builds remain dead in the track with such a fiasco, though.

Edit:


I completely forgot that in the beginning the EDs were fixed to certain minimum clases! well, it only shows how fast the game develops. There was a big outcry from the playerbase to make EDs farmable for all classes, then. And look what we got!

Keep in mind that the original design was always to play all destinies to earn fate points and more/better twists. Also druid is a primal caster so I don't agree this was intended solely for rangers. As far as I know the wording never changed. Within a few months of U14 there were already several shiradi casters, but they were mostly Sorcs. Shiradi casters are very different today because the enhancement pass opened up so many unique combos that made no sense prior to the enhancement pass.

I think the real issue is the balance issue in EE. It should be resolved by beefing up certain things like pure classes rather than nerfing builds that aren't overpowered.

[Gempoult]

Keep in mind that the original design was always to play all destinies to earn fate points and more/better twists. Also druid is a primal caster so I don't agree this was intended solely for rangers. As far as I know the wording never changed. Within a few months of U14 there were already several shiradi casters, but they were mostly Sorcs. Shiradi casters are very different today because the enhancement pass opened up so many unique combos that made no sense prior to the enhancement pass.

I think the real issue is the balance issue in EE. It should be resolved by beefing up certain things like pure classes rather than nerfing builds that aren't overpowered.

Why is everyone repeating the same thing? It's not helping your point at all. There is a lot more to the game than pure damage output, in terms of those maybe shiradis aren't overpowered, but what about time spent "developing" the toon, time spent gearing up, survivability, no save CC, self-healing, self-buffing, unlimited spell points?... List can go on for a while... Those things are not overpowered in shiradi compared to others? Honestly?

[hit_fido]

Why is everyone repeating the same thing? It's not helping your point at all. There is a lot more to the game than pure damage output, in terms of those maybe shiradis aren't overpowered, but what about time spent "developing" the toon, time spent gearing up, survivability, no save CC, self-healing, self-buffing, unlimited spell points?... List can go on for a while... Those things are not overpowered in shiradi compared to others? Honestly?

If the biggest objective concern re: Shiradi is that it is the easiest epic destiny to build around on average for a brand new player to feel confidant and participate/contribute in groups, do you think that is seen as a net negative or a net positive for Turbine considering the inherent difficulty attracting new players and $$$ to an ~8 year old game with an ever widening gap between these potential new players and old timers?

The rest of the list (buffing, self healing/survival, unlimited sp), comes back around to the specifics of some very particular build combinations, self healing arcane warforged (esp bladeforged) with fvs splash for the temp SP on crit. It was power gamers who studied the enhancement pass that pointed out what would happen with Just Reward and power gamers who happily capitalized on it by creatively finding the most synergistic builds. And power gamers post now that pound for pound those builds are still clearly not the most dominant in the game anyway. Even the shuriken throwing power gamers are splitting between Shiradi and Shadowdancer... Shadowdancer, once thought to be one of the weaker EDs!

But people are worried that fresh players will put the same effort into pouring over forum posts, wikis and character planners and start soloing EE raids with their one month old 28 point magic missile builds and make years of everyone else's hard work look pale in comparison? Come now... are these fears really about the health of the game or the health of the epeen?

[Vint]

But people are worried that fresh players will put the same effort into pouring over forum posts, wikis and character planners and start soloing EE raids with their one month old 28 point magic missile builds and make years of everyone else's hard work look pale in comparison? Come now... are these fears really about the health of the game or the health of the epeen?

This

[Roland_D'Arabel]

If the biggest objective concern re: Shiradi is that it is the easiest epic destiny to build around on average for a brand new player to feel confidant and participate/contribute in groups, do you think that is seen as a net negative or a net positive for Turbine considering the inherent difficulty attracting new players and $$$ to an ~8 year old game with an ever widening gap between these potential new players and old timers?

The rest of the list (buffing, self healing/survival, unlimited sp), comes back around to the specifics of some very particular build combinations, self healing arcane warforged (esp bladeforged) with fvs splash for the temp SP on crit. It was power gamers who studied the enhancement pass that pointed out what would happen with Just Reward and power gamers who happily capitalized on it by creatively finding the most synergistic builds. And power gamers post now that pound for pound those builds are still clearly not the most dominant in the game anyway. Even the shuriken throwing power gamers are splitting between Shiradi and Shadowdancer... Shadowdancer, once thought to be one of the weaker EDs!

But people are worried that fresh players will put the same effort into pouring over forum posts, wikis and character planners and start soloing EE raids with their one month old 28 point magic missile builds and make years of everyone else's hard work look pale in comparison? Come now... are these fears really about the health of the game or the health of the epeen?

/QFT

However, self healing shouldn't even come into the conversation. Firstly, warforged casters have been able to self heal for almost the entire life of the game. Secondly, there are many many ways to self-heal without being warforged. Palemasters can do it, so can artificers and rangers and paladins and halflings. My point is that this is should not be part of the conversation re: shiradi hate.

[Enoach]

I think if we get to the actual core of the issue with Shiradi Champion it comes down to the following:


Caster Classes like Wizard/Sorcerer have a wide range of low cost multiple attack point spells & SLAs such as magic missiles (but not limited to just this spell)
2 Levels of Favored Soul for the "Just Rewards" enhancement and the fact of the first point gives these builds access to a nearly unlimited supply of SP
Nerve venom and the first point mean not only a chance to CC 1 mob but a whole crowd of mobs due to not only being able to hit multiple targets but multiple times on each target


These types of builds do not need a heavy investment in gear, but a Kinetic Spell Power/Lore item can be beneficial.

Shiradi Casters do have damage bursts, but cannot control them at will, but can SPAM spells to try to force one to happen. They are good with Trash as well as Boss fights. Again what makes them powerful is not that they can do 15K damage at will, but that they can continue to do consistent damage even when SP is low.

They are powerful, I'm not sure I would classify them as Over Powered. I say this because in quests with a sufficient Length to Shrine ratio the nearly unlimited spell points is negated, and there are DC casters that can compete with the CC abilities and Draconic Casters that can compete with the Damage output.

Yes, it is easier to build/gear a Shiradi Caster and I think it is a good idea to have something to allow newer players to Epics something they can use that makes them feel useful or to fill their needs of having to "hit" every NPC on the board.

However, I will admit the Shiradi play style was not my favorite, so I've returned back to my DC casting ways having fun Holding/Charming/Dancing/FD/Wail/CoD even in EE content.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Good analogies, except it doesn't take into account that DDO is a game and this sort of thing obsolesces a lot of the rest of the game. So entering that car into the Kentucky Derby getting the horse owners upset would fit better. Suddenly, it's a car race and no longer a horse race.

Except it's a co-operative game, not a competitive one.

So it's more like a car owner and a horse owner are both traveling from florida to oregon. And the car owner says why don't we hitch a cart to the back of the car, stick the horse in there and we just drive. It'll take half the time. And the horse owner says it took him years to learn how to ride a horse and they are better at crossing shallow rivers and narrow mountain trails than cars are. And the car owner says, but there's roads all the way from florida to oregon so it's not a problem, and besides donkeys are better at mountainous terrain than horses. So the horse owner calls his congressman and demands the roads be torn up and that the speed limit be set to 10mph.

[kwyjibo_lol]

The other day I was just strolling around Korthos and it is amazing the sort of loot that you find that an armed CR70+ opponent has no idea of it's existence. Such as ...

http://ddowiki.com/images/Protective_Gloves.png

[Draiden]

The other day I was just strolling around Korthos and it is amazing the sort of loot that you find that an armed CR70+ opponent has no idea of it's existence. Such as ...

http://ddowiki.com/images/Protective_Gloves.png

Lmao... +1 for outstanding delivery of a subtle point.