Magic missles too magical?

[capsela]

They pass through solid objects to hit mobs, you dont need to face mobs unlike every other spell. Its just weird a 1st level spell is superior to a 9th level spell. Shiradi is bizzare, NWN had magic missle storm as a 9th level spell and that kinda made sense. And Rayium is the only boss thats smart enough to protect himself from them lol. Dragons are dumb, youd think with all their hoard theyd have a shield clicky to go along with their deathward.

[glouky]

They pass through solid objects to hit mobs, you dont need to face mobs unlike every other spell. Its just weird a 1st level spell is superior to a 9th level spell. Shiradi is bizzare, NWN had magic missle storm as a 9th level spell and that kinda made sense. And Rayium is the only boss thats smart enough to protect himself from them lol. Dragons are dumb, youd think with all their hoard theyd have a shield clicky to go along with their deathward.

Rayium is not ther only one that is immune to MM. However, shield is more for trash, boss prefer mantle of invulnerability. There is a couple of example in the game (A Vision of Destruction,The Master Artificer,Ascension Chamber)...

Anyway, shiradi arcanes are
* good because you can DPS as an arcane at reasonable SP cost
* bad because 96% of interesting spells become useless, and it makes heroic is more interesting than epic

[Pooklebunny]

Rayium is not ther only one that is immune to MM. However, shield is more for trash, boss prefer mantle of invulnerability. There is a couple of example in the game (A Vision of Destruction,The Master Artificer,Ascension Chamber)...

Anyway, shiradi arcanes are
* good because you can DPS as an arcane at reasonable SP cost
* bad because 96% of interesting spells become useless, and it makes heroic is more interesting than epic

The latter is not the fault of Shiradi arcanes; it's the fault of poor game design. 96% of interesting spells are useless (albeit not the same 96% for different toons) because you have to go to preposterous lengths to get DC's that matter in harder content in just one school of magic, which means that you have no chance of using the parts of your spell-list that don't fall into that school. Ridiculous mob saves and blanket immunities mean that whatever school you choose, you're useless for a good percentage of the time, while inflated hit-point totals mean that DPS'ing mobs with spells can only be accomplished by maximising mana efficiency if you don't want to be guzzling the blue stuff constantly. The ubiquity of Shiradi casters is a symptom, not a cause.

I made one when I finally gave up in disgust on my necro Archmage after the enhancement pass and TR'd into a Shiraditard. They're effective... and stupefyingly boring to play, so I just gave up on arcanes entirely. :(

In an ideal world, knowledge of the mobs you're facing would allow you to select spells from a varied list that are effective against their vulnerabilities, just like pen and paper, but I can't see it happening any time soon. Maybe one day I'll have world enough and time to try and make a caster that's not a one-trick pony. *sigh*

[Eth]

In an ideal world, knowledge of the mobs you're facing would allow you to select spells from a varied list that are effective against their vulnerabilities, just like pen and paper, but I can't see it happening any time soon.
What? This is exactly the case.
Focus on necromancy, enchantment, evocation.
low will save = enchant and nuke it
low reflex save = nuke it with evocation spells (greater shout can make stuff helpless and is an evo spell)
low fort save = insta kill it with necro spells

Getting DCs to a state to matter isn't really that hard anymore with all the changes in U21.
It's only hard to get DCs into a region where you can use spells on mobs that have a high save against that school (i.e. necro spells on high fort save mobs).

[-Zephyr-]

low reflex save = nuke it with evocation spells (greater shout can make stuff helpless and is an evo spell)

Unless that changed recently, Greater Shout does not make helpless, and targets fort save, not reflex.

[Nestroy]

What? This is exactly the case.
Focus on necromancy, enchantment, evocation.
low will save = enchant and nuke it
low reflex save = nuke it with evocation spells (greater shout can make stuff helpless and is an evo spell)
low fort save = insta kill it with necro spells

Getting DCs to a state to matter isn't really that hard anymore with all the changes in U21.
It's only hard to get DCs into a region where you can use spells on mobs that have a high save against that school (i.e. necro spells on high fort save mobs).

If I go the lengths to get DCs working for a certain school, the best I managed for any other school so far has been in the late 30ies to early 40ies. Too low in EE content to be of any use against mobs (!) prone to fail the relevant saves. I saw ogres in GH saving will and reflext on EE on a regular base (and evading as hell - we talk about the melee ogres, not about the rangers), same for supposedly stupid gigants. So while this certainly works in EH or EN, forget it for EE. I suspect to have any mob on EE to have at least a general +30 on all saves. And this adding on top of whatever classbased or CR based saves they have. I suspect Gigangs in GH to have will saves in the 50ies or even more on a regular base. Works perfect if I gear / skil for Enchanter Wiz. But a geared and specced Necromancer just cannot cast Mass Hold on anything and expecting to even hold remotely one single mob monster in EE. Argument from you debunked.

By the way, any Wiz dumb enough to try the generalist route for EE - forget it. Get one single school as good as it gets and hope for the best. Forget the rest.

[Eth]

If I go the lengths to get DCs working for a certain school, the best I managed for any other school so far has been in the late 30ies to early 40ies. Too low in EE content to be of any use against mobs (!) prone to fail the relevant saves. I saw ogres in GH saving will and reflext on EE on a regular base (and evading as hell - we talk about the melee ogres, not about the rangers), same for supposedly stupid gigants. So while this certainly works in EH or EN, forget it for EE. I suspect to have any mob on EE to have at least a general +30 on all saves. And this adding on top of whatever classbased or CR based saves they have. I suspect Gigangs in GH to have will saves in the 50ies or even more on a regular base. Works perfect if I gear / skil for Enchanter Wiz. But a geared and specced Necromancer just cannot cast Mass Hold on anything and expecting to even hold remotely one single mob monster in EE. Argument from you debunked.

By the way, any Wiz dumb enough to try the generalist route for EE - forget it. Get one single school as good as it gets and hope for the best. Forget the rest.
Early 40s? Yes, forget about running EE on that build. 40+ used to be good DCs before MotU.
You certainly can't expect to land something even with the right spell if your DC is that terrible.
I play a pure wizard in shiradi destiny.
63 Necro, 60 Enchant, 58 Evocation. Works well enough in EEs.
If I love something about that build it is versatility.

[glouky]

In an ideal world, knowledge of the mobs you're facing would allow you to select spells from a varied list that are effective against their vulnerabilities, just like pen and paper, but I can't see it happening any time soon. Maybe one day I'll have world enough and time to try and make a caster that's not a one-trick pony. *sigh*

In epic,
For shiradi, you basically cycle between 5 spells in epics + 2 feats (ruin and hellball).
For DC caster, you have debuff + few spells of the school... but
* necro can't handle boss (instakill don't work and dots takes years)
* enchantement requires to group with DPS
* evocation cost lots of SP

In heroic, you can have fun with many spells including charms (very fun), buffs (resist energy / haste / stat buff / GH / blur / displacement/.... that are useless compared to gear in epics), AOE (lvl4 spells), etc.

However, some hardcore players can make it in EE (like eth)... but if you watch at the achievement forum, there is not that much non shiradi caster... and they typically drink lots of pots....

[Eth]

In heroic, you can have fun with many spells including charms (very fun), buffs (resist energy / haste / stat buff / GH / blur / displacement/.... that are useless compared to gear in epics), AOE (lvl4 spells), etc.

It's a bummer charming is so short timed on EE. Still can be situationally useful though. Nothing better to watch some assasins whirl their chains in each others face.

[IronClan]

They pass through solid objects to hit mobs, you dont need to face mobs unlike every other spell. Its just weird a 1st level spell is superior to a 9th level spell. Shiradi is bizzare, NWN had magic missle storm as a 9th level spell and that kinda made sense. And Rayium is the only boss thats smart enough to protect himself from them lol. Dragons are dumb, youd think with all their hoard theyd have a shield clicky to go along with their deathward.

Magic Missiles hit their target unerringly, they go around things, in DDO they have to simulate this as giving a bunch of spells more than "follow last known position" pathing AI would be stupidly expensive on server resources. So yes they someones appear to go through objects and landscapes.

If there's one thing about MMO's that I'm sick and tired of it's people who hate other peoples fun... Find something you enjoy playing, and if the other guys builds make yours feel weak, then find something that isn't weak that you enjoy playing or get over it and keep playing what you enjoy. Believe me, Shiradi casters aren't NEARLY as effective as you think they are. They also aren't nearly as common as they were a year ago.

[DakDeFrosted]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FV7feaE4uvM/TLYNs-ap69I/AAAAAAAAALQ/8UKJxKISD7E/s1600/crabs+in+a+bucket+poster.jpg

[capsela]

I taking advantage of shiradi at the moment actually. I didnt ask for a nerf. I dont like shiradi because its not optimal for wizzies.

I would like a buff for shiradi actually. Put intelligence as a shiradi ED option, please. That would make me want to run it all the time. Now, can you stop whinging?

[Andoris]

If I go the lengths to get DCs working for a certain school, the best I managed for any other school so far has been in the late 30ies to early 40ies. Too low in EE content to be of any use against mobs (!) prone to fail the relevant saves. I saw ogres in GH saving will and reflext on EE on a regular base (and evading as hell - we talk about the melee ogres, not about the rangers), same for supposedly stupid gigants. So while this certainly works in EH or EN, forget it for EE. I suspect to have any mob on EE to have at least a general +30 on all saves. And this adding on top of whatever classbased or CR based saves they have. I suspect Gigangs in GH to have will saves in the 50ies or even more on a regular base. Works perfect if I gear / skil for Enchanter Wiz. But a geared and specced Necromancer just cannot cast Mass Hold on anything and expecting to even hold remotely one single mob monster in EE. Argument from you debunked.

By the way, any Wiz dumb enough to try the generalist route for EE - forget it. Get one single school as good as it gets and hope for the best. Forget the rest.

Thats not true. Most of your DC's comes from your Intelligence score which affects all schools. Additionally, with the "Sage's" gear you can slot Conjuration, evocation, and enchantment in non-weapon slots freeing your hands for Spell power boosts and necromancy. Yes, you will choose one school to "specialize" in, but that really only means that it will be 3-5 DC higher than your other schools (I choose Necromancy as Fort saves are usually the highest).

If you are in epic content and not able to get over a 40 dc you might want to look at your build. If you want some assistance, I did a break down of what you can do for Intelligence and spell DC's in my PM guide (see sig).

Good luck

[Lonnbeimnech]

Wall of fire can also be cast around corners without line of sight, and behind yourself.

[Andoris]

In epic,
For shiradi, you basically cycle between 5 spells in epics + 2 feats (ruin and hellball).
For DC caster, you have debuff + few spells of the school... but
* necro can't handle boss (instakill don't work and dots takes years)
* enchantement requires to group with DPS
* evocation cost lots of SP

In heroic, you can have fun with many spells including charms (very fun), buffs (resist energy / haste / stat buff / GH / blur / displacement/.... that are useless compared to gear in epics), AOE (lvl4 spells), etc.

However, some hardcore players can make it in EE (like eth)... but if you watch at the achievement forum, there is not that much non shiradi caster... and they typically drink lots of pots....


While it is true that Wizards have poor red/purple-named dps we completely dominate everything else. Spell DC's are in a good spot right now, to where for most content debuffing isn't even required.

I kill more mobs with Enchantment (Mass hold) + Evocation (Energy Burst, Dragon Breath, Delayed Blast Fireball) then I do with necromancy.

You don't see a lot of wizards featured on the achievement forums soloing content mostly due to the poor red/purple named DPS.
Personally, I am okay with that as it balances out wizards. If we were dominating every mob in the game and we had good boss dps they would be way over-powered.

[Wipey]

. But a geared and specced Necromancer just cannot cast Mass Hold on anything and expecting to even hold remotely one single mob monster in EE. Argument from you debunked.

Teh_Troll starts new semester soon or read Asharam's Smug Palemaster Guide ™.

70 Necro / 64 Enchant in Magister with shippies and Yugo on my silly wizzy, no 5 tomes, Litany, compl or any fancy stuff.
64 Enchant stops almost everything in the game cold, except Stormhorns Shadar Kai and Shadovars and let me tell you 70 Necro is godmode anywhere sans Stormhorns.
Get your 30 - 40 kills ( more in Draconic or twist Eburst, or even Mass Hold + Divine Wrath in EA ), keep extended Hage up and CC everything for your melee/Blitzing minions, who cares about boss dps ( which is not THAT terrible anyway ).

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/13957937608_a7f3d6cd63_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ngq5yG)

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5469/13957939698_d8023a3ba7_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ngq6bJ)

[moo_cow]

What? This is exactly the case.
Focus on necromancy, enchantment, evocation.
low will save = enchant and nuke it
low reflex save = nuke it with evocation spells (greater shout can make stuff helpless and is an evo spell)
low fort save = insta kill it with necro spells

Getting DCs to a state to matter isn't really that hard anymore with all the changes in U21.
It's only hard to get DCs into a region where you can use spells on mobs that have a high save against that school (i.e. necro spells on high fort save mobs).

I am in agreement that getting dc's up is a lot easier right now, I have a sorc specialized in enchantment and evo and his spells land pretty well. Even his necro works on low fort mobs without a big problem. There still are a few mobs however where their saves don't make sense, with a 65 enchant dc I should be able to hold black guards with debuffs, but giving them a -3 to their saves my dc still only lands 10 % of the time on them. Now while all your spells should not work against everything, that would be why we have other spells, some of the saves of mobs need a bit of adjusting.