How it is/was : Loot and rewards.

[Azarddoze]

Kinda same topic - different approach. Topic name is bad because well, creativity ain't my strenght.

From reading and participating to the forums, I realized that the clashes of ideas often comes from different mentalities toward what MMOs were, are or should be. This comes from our personnal likes but also at what period and which kind of games we played. Some tried alot to find what they liked/disliked and some fell into one and sticked to it, no matter what. Some also have a better of idea of what they want because they can clearly picturize their own preferences and they can tell without doubts what it is that affect them and what doesn't.

Here comes the little bashing: I feel that there are also some who are lost and have no idea of what they've came to "achieve" or how will their fun actually materialize once in-game. Those I would say are part of the new generation of MMO players and I find this one precise exemple to be reflecting this:

---- That exemple is the one of the EH player who has 0 interrest in playing EEs because it requires attention and they don't find it fun. This EH player also feels like he is missing on something if he doesn't end up with the best gear even though that gear wouldn't in reality affect his gaming experience since he has the possibility to already be overgeared for the difficulties he's interrested in with the gear in place. ----

And that is what should be important. Feeling like a god in the difficulty you're playing, not simply obtaining the best of the best just to see how glowy it is.


As much as I don't like to admit it, things have changed and some of us are more "old school". Stuff like buying the best gear from AH or acquiring it without overcoming the toughest challenge (or something unique) isn't something that some might be used to. Or at least, let say we weren't 5 years ago. I honestly understand the "services" feel to it where you can pay to win time and see how there is a need for it. It is not the problem of the industry (even if they like it) that some people end up crazy and spends thousands on the game. What I mean is I kinda understand how it turned out. Not how the players did... but the industry.

Here's what I'd like to say/ask to those people who sees this as the "normality" in term of MMO and that's how it should be : It's not for everyone. Couldn't it be possible, in a game structured around casual needs that we could have, us powergamers, that little part of the game called EE where the difficulty is not even comparable to EH, what we're interrested in? Something that would be more rewarding for a bigger challenge. And if you want to join in the fun and try it, you'd even have access to something more too.

Don't see those top tier of items as something you need when you don't in reality. See them as a possible motivation that could lead you to be a in-game hero! Or simply a new step, might you feel interrested at one point. About no one in DDO seems to be an egomaniac powergamer and wants to have the best gear only to show it around. That is why you shouldn't see it as such.


I don't know if those people i'm refering to are a loud minority or a majority but they seem to be the ones leading the choices of the industry and precisely DDO's. And I don't even mind the game being shaped for a mainstream audience, all I ask is that a little part of the game could still cater to the group i'm trying to represent.


*Hopefully those "I" = a couple more people than just me.

[Nibor]

This EH player also feels like he is missing on something if he doesn't end up with the best gear even though that gear wouldn't in reality affect his gaming experience since he has the possibility to already be overgeared for the difficulties he's interrested in with the gear in place.

This is the part you're wrong about. Just because *you* don't think the gear difference will "affect his gaming experience", you don't get to decide that. If the EH player feels it affects his game experience, it has affected it.

This all works out fine if the EH player has access to things, but it's more efficient to run EE if you really want that gear. Right now it's not - look at the new raids. Want to get an item from the raid? Right now, you can run it on EN, and you'll almost certainly get your 20th list and get the item there before you get the item in a chest. Or you can run it on EE...and almost certainly get your 20th list before you get the item in a chest, because even on EE the drop rates are virtually nothing*. And while in theory there are +6 tomes in the EE chest list...it's just theory because I haven't heard of a single one dropping yet.

If I could run EE and be more likely than not to get the item in, say, 10 runs, then hey let's have some EE raid runs. Although 20 EN is still VASTLY easier than 10 EEs.

I don't really need a unique reward. I just need the reward to be more efficient on EE than EN, and that's going to be true for a lot of "powergamers" - who are trying to get the best items in the most efficient way possible.

* note - this is my impression based on word of mouth, I certainly haven't run the new raids on EE nearly enough to have an idea of what drop rates are. But from those that have...well, there's a reason they just run 20 ENs instead.


There will also be those who want something unique for EE as a badge of success. If it's mechanically superior it's going to cause problems for those who run EH but want to eventually get the most powerful gear. I'm sure there's some middle ground here, and it's probably in the form of something more cosmetic than mechanical as a reward.

[Azarddoze]

This is the part you're wrong about. Just because *you* don't think the gear difference will "affect his gaming experience", you don't get to decide that. If the EH player feels it affects his game experience, it has affected it.

I'll just pick on this since I knew it would come.

You're 100% right. But it's still a self created need. Or pure greed. Being geared enought to crush the content you're playing should be enought. On top of that, I don't find it fair that this mentality has the power to totally remove the fun from another group of the player base.

There was some psychology involved in my message because I think the problem is deeper than just the gear itself. And as stupid as this may sound, it's that deeper problem i'm targetting here.

[Kalimah]

There was some psychology involved in my message because I think the problem is deeper than just the gear itself. And as stupid as this may sound, it's that deeper problem i'm targetting here.

You dont mean....halfing tossing do you?

[Gremmlynn]

This is the part you're wrong about. Just because *you* don't think the gear difference will "affect his gaming experience", you don't get to decide that. If the EH player feels it affects his game experience, it has affected it.

This all works out fine if the EH player has access to things, but it's more efficient to run EE if you really want that gear. Right now it's not - look at the new raids. Want to get an item from the raid? Right now, you can run it on EN, and you'll almost certainly get your 20th list and get the item there before you get the item in a chest. Or you can run it on EE...and almost certainly get your 20th list before you get the item in a chest, because even on EE the drop rates are virtually nothing*. And while in theory there are +6 tomes in the EE chest list...it's just theory because I haven't heard of a single one dropping yet.

If I could run EE and be more likely than not to get the item in, say, 10 runs, then hey let's have some EE raid runs. Although 20 EN is still VASTLY easier than 10 EEs.A lot of this could be blamed on timer bypasses, all of it if you make the assumption that loot drop rates are set low to increase sales of bypasses. The fact that one can get a 20th list in a day or two lessens the value of higher drop rates for higher difficulties. Dismal drop rates just exasperate that. When a raid could only be run every 3 days, taking several times as long to complete it was not such an issue as it didn't significantly increase the turn around time before one could run it again.

[Gremmlynn]

I'll just pick on this since I knew it would come.

You're 100% right. But it's still a self created need. Or pure greed. Being geared enought to crush the content you're playing should be enought. On top of that, I don't find it fair that this mentality has the power to totally remove the fun from another group of the player base.

There was some psychology involved in my message because I think the problem is deeper than just the gear itself. And as stupid as this may sound, it's that deeper problem i'm targetting here.Frankly, the same could be said of those who want something better than what most people have. It is also only a "problem" between the ears of those who feel that way.

[Azarddoze]

Frankly, the same could be said of those who want something better than what most people have. It is also only a "problem" between the ears of those who feel that way.

Agreed. But based on how life works rewarding success seems better than rewarding participation. Even in a game. Everyone has to have access to "everything" but that "everything" doesn't have to be acquired by everyone for them to enjoy their time. Hence why I say it's a self created need by different reasons.

I think the educational system is still learning from this.

I do understand the economical needs to aim toward that audience. Just not how this can't leave place to some fun for everyone without hurting feelings.

[bsquishwizzy]

Kinda same topic - different approach. Topic name is bad because well, creativity ain't my strenght.

From reading and participating to the forums, I realized that the clashes of ideas often comes from different mentalities toward what MMOs were, are or should be. This comes from our personnal likes but also at what period and which kind of games we played. Some tried alot to find what they liked/disliked and some fell into one and sticked to it, no matter what. Some also have a better of idea of what they want because they can clearly picturize their own preferences and they can tell without doubts what it is that affect them and what doesn't.

Here comes the little bashing: I feel that there are also some who are lost and have no idea of what they've came to "achieve" or how will their fun actually materialize once in-game. Those I would say are part of the new generation of MMO players and I find this one precise exemple to be reflecting this:

---- That exemple is the one of the EH player who has 0 interrest in playing EEs because it requires attention and they don't find it fun. This EH player also feels like he is missing on something if he doesn't end up with the best gear even though that gear wouldn't in reality affect his gaming experience since he has the possibility to already be overgeared for the difficulties he's interrested in with the gear in place. ----

And that is what should be important. Feeling like a god in the difficulty you're playing, not simply obtaining the best of the best just to see how glowy it is.


As much as I don't like to admit it, things have changed and some of us are more "old school". Stuff like buying the best gear from AH or acquiring it without overcoming the toughest challenge (or something unique) isn't something that some might be used to. Or at least, let say we weren't 5 years ago. I honestly understand the "services" feel to it where you can pay to win time and see how there is a need for it. It is not the problem of the industry (even if they like it) that some people end up crazy and spends thousands on the game. What I mean is I kinda understand how it turned out. Not how the players did... but the industry.

Here's what I'd like to say/ask to those people who sees this as the "normality" in term of MMO and that's how it should be : It's not for everyone. Couldn't it be possible, in a game structured around casual needs that we could have, us powergamers, that little part of the game called EE where the difficulty is not even comparable to EH, what we're interrested in? Something that would be more rewarding for a bigger challenge. And if you want to join in the fun and try it, you'd even have access to something more too.

Don't see those top tier of items as something you need when you don't in reality. See them as a possible motivation that could lead you to be a in-game hero! Or simply a new step, might you feel interrested at one point. About no one in DDO seems to be an egomaniac powergamer and wants to have the best gear only to show it around. That is why you shouldn't see it as such.


I don't know if those people i'm refering to are a loud minority or a majority but they seem to be the ones leading the choices of the industry and precisely DDO's. And I don't even mind the game being shaped for a mainstream audience, all I ask is that a little part of the game could still cater to the group i'm trying to represent.


*Hopefully those "I" = a couple more people than just me.

For the record, I’m am 120% against being able to buy the best gear from the ASAH. But things are what they are.

If there is a problem with players expecting top-tier gear without running EE content, that I would suggest that it is only within the forums, and not in the actual game. I don’t hear anyone making these types of statements in the game.

Then again, there is an obnoxious EE-only focus here as it applies to just about everything. People need to get a grip and realize that there is content below lvl 28, and Normal difficulty isn’t there for decoration.

I run elite content almost exclusively these days until I hit epic. That’s because it seems like EVERYONE runs it. If I could, I’d run normal or hard and have just as much fun.

As for wanting something better than saying you regularly do EE content, expecting some sort of cookie for your efforts seems to be counterproductive. If it is motivated by better gear, the reality is that once you get it, the content because easier, and therefore it is less of a challenge. So, specifically, what makes you stand out as a player when your gear is what is doing the work for you? Hummm…?

When you are able to dominate EE content in your underwear, then you can thump your chest as being uber. Until then, you’re no better than a moderately geared player in EH.

As for powergames…really? People actually invest that much time in playing video games? Wow.

Take some advice: do something useful. Maybe put an addition on your house…you neighbor’s house…take up playing the mandolin…play canasta with people in the old folks home…something other than being good at video games. It’s hard for your mom and dad to be proud when you major achievement in life is soloing the Wiz King on elite. Just sayin’…

[Nibor]

I'll just pick on this since I knew it would come.

You're 100% right. But it's still a self created need. Or pure greed. Being geared enought to crush the content you're playing should be enought. On top of that, I don't find it fair that this mentality has the power to totally remove the fun from another group of the player base.

There was some psychology involved in my message because I think the problem is deeper than just the gear itself. And as stupid as this may sound, it's that deeper problem i'm targetting here.

The whole game is a self-created need. We all play because something about the game is enjoyable. We would like that part of the game that is enjoyable to be as enjoyable as possible. That's not greed. It's hoping to get the best game for our own personal enjoyment.

Some people want the best gear in the game because that's part of the enjoyment for them, but yet playing the hardest content isn't all that enjoyable for them. That's not greed.
Some people need a higher power level to beat EH than others due to player skill. Thus they want the best gear in the game. That's not greed either.

[Nibor]

As for powergames…really? People actually invest that much time in playing video games? Wow.

Take some advice: do something useful. Maybe put an addition on your house…you neighbor’s house…take up playing the mandolin…play canasta with people in the old folks home…something other than being good at video games. It’s hard for your mom and dad to be proud when you major achievement in life is soloing the Wiz King on elite. Just sayin’…

This sentiment is always hilarious to read when written by someone onto a video game internet message board.

[Azarddoze]

Take some advice: do something useful. Maybe put an addition on your house…you neighbor’s house…take up playing the mandolin…play canasta with people in the old folks home…something other than being good at video games. It’s hard for your mom and dad to be proud when you major achievement in life is soloing the Wiz King on elite. Just sayin’…

Thank you for your great advice, just what I needed to seize you better. Totally sorry for mastering something as simple as a keyboard and mouse after 25+ years of practice. I know it's hard to believe that some were born with good reflexes, vision, awareness, and the kind of intelligence that makes you be good at games and then they got better naturaly... but it's a reality. Sucking at something is one thing, but the ones that are better than you don't become "stupid" or "no life punks" just because their interrest aren't the same as yours. Anyone may chose to invest his time into anything and kudo if they do it with the mentality of getting better at it.

Powergamer has nothing to do with being good. At all. But powergamers are usually good since their goals are what they are.


About lessening the challenge : The power doesn't have to be a huge step up from other difficulties, there just has to be something there at the end to grant a long term life to EE.

About the mandolin: Been recording music at home all day long, I can afford to spend time on the forum. I also had a message to get across... not you.
About Mom and dad: You should have quit before getting there as you have no idea who you're talking to. You could be right but not in this case, sorry.

[Azarddoze]

Some people want the best gear in the game because that's part of the enjoyment for them, but yet playing the hardest content isn't all that enjoyable for them. That's not greed.

I know i'm kinda defending my vision vs your defending reality but how is that reason right there valuable?

How is it fair when it comes with the cost of ruining other's fun by removing something to them. And remember, that something removed can still be obtained by all, it is not exclusive to a just a few. It also will not change the experience in term of in-game playing. It might hurt them in the inside, that's the point i'm trying to make.


Some people need a higher power level to beat EH than others due to player skill. Thus they want the best gear in the game. That's not greed either.

See now that's totally legit. Yet it doesn't really apply to DDO since the game has different difficulty setting to allow different player to play within their "field".

I wouldn't be defending this stance if I knew it could cause real gameplay problem to others since gameplay is the most important thing to me. Everyone uses a feature such as gameplay.

[memloch]

I think turbine has a very difficult job when it comes to loot and difficulty levels. The power gamers and EE crowd want to be treated special while the EN or EH crowd wants access to everything. From a business point of view do you keep the small 5 - 10% EE crowd happy or the majority happy. Numbers just based on what I have seen many people post on the forums. As a business if I had to choose I know exactly what I would do. The majority would win every time.

I do not agree with the op

That exemple is the one of the EH player who has 0 interrest in playing EEs because it requires attention and they don't find it fun

I have played EE and can survive. The problem why I rather play EH is that the amount of resources needed to play EE, the time, the meta gaming etc is what makes it not fun. Has nothing to do with requiring attention. I can also get more XP running EH hard quests then running just one EE quest.

[Azarddoze]

I think turbine has a very difficult job when it comes to loot and difficulty levels. The power gamers and EE crowd want to be treated special while the EN or EH crowd wants access to everything. From a business point of view do you keep the small 5 - 10% EE crowd happy or the majority happy. Numbers just based on what I have seen many people post on the forums. As a business if I had to choose I know exactly what I would do. The majority would win every time.

Can't disagree with you, pure business logic. Problem is that the game changed drastically. If the game was aiming purely to casuals from the start... well I would have never played in the first part. We really came from one difficulty of epic level that would totally divide the player base in an about 90%/10% ratio (10% being the epic players - this is a guess) to the extreme opposite where everything has to acquired easily by all.

Now as I worked as a manager myself, this change was for the best of course but I do believe that there is a much better middle ground than how it is. You shouldn't just push away a certain % of your long term playerbase just like that. Or it's that I just believe you can't do it... or shouldn't. That's without the financial datas, of course. Gotta take the player's side too sometimes.



I have played EE and can survive. The problem why I rather play EH is that the amount of resources needed to play EE, the time, the meta gaming etc is what makes it not fun. Has nothing to do with requiring attention. I can also get more XP running EH hard quests then running just one EE quest.

Then you're simply not part of the exemple I gave heh. Anyways those reasons are really beside the point i'm trying to make and I must say I didn't focus on that. It's all guesses and feelings, it's very likely I am wrong and I am fine with it. It's the different mentalities and how could they all be happy that I am trying to showcase.

[EllisDee37]

---- That exemple is the one of the EH player who has 0 interrest in playing EEs because it requires attention and they don't find it fun. This EH player also feels like he is missing on something if he doesn't end up with the best gear even though that gear wouldn't in reality affect his gaming experience since he has the possibility to already be overgeared for the difficulties he's interrested in with the gear in place. ----Part of this describes me. I don't play EE because I feel EE is a different game than the rest of the game. I like the rest of the game.

But I do have an example of needing a piece of EE gear (which I bought on the regular AH for ~120k plat) where the EH version simply wouldn't do. Not because it wasn't as shiny; I don't mind take a lower strength item. I'm only running EH, so of course I don't particularly need the best of the best. (This is another reason why I prefer EH to EE.)

The gear I needed was an upgrade to my crafted Devotion +66 of Resistance +5 trinket for my paladin. I upgraded him to an EE Shamanic Fetish (Devotion +120) with a Resistance +7 augment in the green slot. The EH version only has a yellow slot, meaning I would be wholly unable to slot resistance at all.

If it's just weaker, like say the fetish came with resistance and the EH version was Devotion +108 of Resistance +6, then I would have been perfectly content with the EH version. But in this case it was EE or nothing.

By contrast, my cleric's EE blue dragon helm w/+3 wisdom (a gift from a guildie) feels like a bit of a waste since I have a yellow augment in the green slot and a colorless in the yellow. As may be obvious, I planned for the EH version. heh.

[Azarddoze]

Part of this describes me. I don't play EE because I feel EE is a different game than the rest of the game. I like the rest of the game.

But I do have an example of needing a piece of EE gear (which I bought on the regular AH for ~120k plat) where the EH version simply wouldn't do. Not because it wasn't as shiny; I don't mind take a lower strength item. I'm only running EH, so of course I don't particularly need the best of the best. (This is another reason why I prefer EH to EE.)

The gear I needed was an upgrade to my crafted Devotion +66 of Resistance +5 trinket for my paladin. I upgraded him to an EE Shamanic Fetish (Devotion +120) with a Resistance +7 augment in the green slot. The EH version only has a yellow slot, meaning I would be wholly unable to slot resistance at all.

If it's just weaker, like say the fetish came with resistance and the EH version was Devotion +108 of Resistance +6, then I would have been perfectly content with the EH version. But in this case it was EE or nothing.

By contrast, my cleric's EE blue dragon helm w/+3 wisdom (a gift from a guildie) feels like a bit of a waste since I have a yellow augment in the green slot and a colorless in the yellow. As may be obvious, I planned for the EH version. heh.

Thanks for the straight up real feelings about this.

What I get from this is:

- Rending able to sell the best loot (non-raid of course) can be a way to patch the problem
- Some upgrades, even though not "needed" to succeed, are big enought to feel like you do need them. And I actually understand the why of this attitude, though I don't share it. I've been used to "work for it" and that is my self imposed challenge I guess. It's also a way to grant a game more longetivity.

Now one question: If most EH gear would suffice, the upgrades being minor, and just one EE piece would require you to actually run the quest for real (let's say it's not tradable and you want it bad), would you do it or is there no chance at all and you'll just be mad about it. Sticking at level 30 will hopefully bring more possibilities in term of wearing "the perfect set" with all the proper attributes needed and that might help this problem by itself.

Your answer obviously won't answer for everyone but it'll be something to chew in my quest to find balance. Not that it will ever be considered by Turbine but it'd be fun for personal knowledge.

In the end, i'm all for non-raid sellable loot in DDO as far as the drop rates aren't affected too much by that possibility. In my perfect world, It wouldn't be possible to buy top tier items but I do see the need for it.

[Turbosilk]

This is the part you're wrong about. Just because *you* don't think the gear difference will "affect his gaming experience", you don't get to decide that. If the EH player feels it affects his game experience, it has affected it.

This all works out fine if the EH player has access to things, but it's more efficient to run EE if you really want that gear. Right now it's not - look at the new raids. Want to get an item from the raid? Right now, you can run it on EN, and you'll almost certainly get your 20th list and get the item there before you get the item in a chest. Or you can run it on EE...and almost certainly get your 20th list before you get the item in a chest, because even on EE the drop rates are virtually nothing*. And while in theory there are +6 tomes in the EE chest list...it's just theory because I haven't heard of a single one dropping yet.

If I could run EE and be more likely than not to get the item in, say, 10 runs, then hey let's have some EE raid runs. Although 20 EN is still VASTLY easier than 10 EEs.

I don't really need a unique reward. I just need the reward to be more efficient on EE than EN, and that's going to be true for a lot of "powergamers" - who are trying to get the best items in the most efficient way possible.

* note - this is my impression based on word of mouth, I certainly haven't run the new raids on EE nearly enough to have an idea of what drop rates are. But from those that have...well, there's a reason they just run 20 ENs instead.


There will also be those who want something unique for EE as a badge of success. If it's mechanically superior it's going to cause problems for those who run EH but want to eventually get the most powerful gear. I'm sure there's some middle ground here, and it's probably in the form of something more cosmetic than mechanical as a reward.

Efficiency is a poor lame reward for EE. Let's follow your logic. If someone *thinks* something affects his/her game experience then it is. Everything *thinks* this so this is affecting everyone. Therefore the best path is to great something vanilla for everyone and give everything to everyone as fast as possible. Where does that take you?

[Turbosilk]

Part of this describes me. I don't play EE because I feel EE is a different game than the rest of the game. I like the rest of the game.

But I do have an example of needing a piece of EE gear (which I bought on the regular AH for ~120k plat) where the EH version simply wouldn't do. Not because it wasn't as shiny; I don't mind take a lower strength item. I'm only running EH, so of course I don't particularly need the best of the best. (This is another reason why I prefer EH to EE.)

The gear I needed was an upgrade to my crafted Devotion +66 of Resistance +5 trinket for my paladin. I upgraded him to an EE Shamanic Fetish (Devotion +120) with a Resistance +7 augment in the green slot. The EH version only has a yellow slot, meaning I would be wholly unable to slot resistance at all.

If it's just weaker, like say the fetish came with resistance and the EH version was Devotion +108 of Resistance +6, then I would have been perfectly content with the EH version. But in this case it was EE or nothing.

By contrast, my cleric's EE blue dragon helm w/+3 wisdom (a gift from a guildie) feels like a bit of a waste since I have a yellow augment in the green slot and a colorless in the yellow. As may be obvious, I planned for the EH version. heh.

EE is little different than the heroic difference between hard and elite once you get to level 10+

[slarden]

Kinda same topic - different approach. Topic name is bad because well, creativity ain't my strenght.

From reading and participating to the forums, I realized that the clashes of ideas often comes from different mentalities toward what MMOs were, are or should be. This comes from our personnal likes but also at what period and which kind of games we played. Some tried alot to find what they liked/disliked and some fell into one and sticked to it, no matter what. Some also have a better of idea of what they want because they can clearly picturize their own preferences and they can tell without doubts what it is that affect them and what doesn't.

Here comes the little bashing: I feel that there are also some who are lost and have no idea of what they've came to "achieve" or how will their fun actually materialize once in-game. Those I would say are part of the new generation of MMO players and I find this one precise exemple to be reflecting this:

---- That exemple is the one of the EH player who has 0 interrest in playing EEs because it requires attention and they don't find it fun. This EH player also feels like he is missing on something if he doesn't end up with the best gear even though that gear wouldn't in reality affect his gaming experience since he has the possibility to already be overgeared for the difficulties he's interrested in with the gear in place. ----

And that is what should be important. Feeling like a god in the difficulty you're playing, not simply obtaining the best of the best just to see how glowy it is.


As much as I don't like to admit it, things have changed and some of us are more "old school". Stuff like buying the best gear from AH or acquiring it without overcoming the toughest challenge (or something unique) isn't something that some might be used to. Or at least, let say we weren't 5 years ago. I honestly understand the "services" feel to it where you can pay to win time and see how there is a need for it. It is not the problem of the industry (even if they like it) that some people end up crazy and spends thousands on the game. What I mean is I kinda understand how it turned out. Not how the players did... but the industry.

Here's what I'd like to say/ask to those people who sees this as the "normality" in term of MMO and that's how it should be : It's not for everyone. Couldn't it be possible, in a game structured around casual needs that we could have, us powergamers, that little part of the game called EE where the difficulty is not even comparable to EH, what we're interrested in? Something that would be more rewarding for a bigger challenge. And if you want to join in the fun and try it, you'd even have access to something more too.

Don't see those top tier of items as something you need when you don't in reality. See them as a possible motivation that could lead you to be a in-game hero! Or simply a new step, might you feel interrested at one point. About no one in DDO seems to be an egomaniac powergamer and wants to have the best gear only to show it around. That is why you shouldn't see it as such.


I don't know if those people i'm refering to are a loud minority or a majority but they seem to be the ones leading the choices of the industry and precisely DDO's. And I don't even mind the game being shaped for a mainstream audience, all I ask is that a little part of the game could still cater to the group i'm trying to represent.


*Hopefully those "I" = a couple more people than just me.

So you are basically saying someone that is already running and succeeding in EE content NEEDS a better item, but the person that is stuck on hard and can't quite handle EE doesn't need the item?

Sorry, the history of DDO is not tiered loot. People want tiered loot to sell it to others more than anything else. So stating casual players don't need the top loot when most of it will be sold to that same group is rather ridiculous.

What is more accurate? Poewrgamer or farmer?

I run EE and don't need to be convinced to run it. There is already plenty of reward.

/not signed

[Azarddoze]

So you are basically saying someone that is already running and succeeding in EE content NEEDS a better item, but the person that is stuck on hard and can't quite handle EE doesn't need the item?

Not at all


Sorry, the history of DDO is not tiered loot. People want tiered loot to sell it to others more than anything else. So stating casual players don't need the top loot when most of it will be sold to that same group is rather ridiculous.

Before tiered loot, there was simple epic loot and raid loot. I feel like being able to sell them is more of a compromise when the game aimed for a more mainstream audience.


What is more accurate? Poewrgamer or farmer?

Depends on the individual, i'm not gonna stereotype people. Everyone playing epic level is kinda farming atm anyway. Or is like that for about every MMO players that play more than there is content to clear? And... what's wrong with it? What's your beef with those people? Why do they affect you enought that you have to raise the way they enjoy the game?


I run EE and don't need to be convinced to run it. There is already plenty of reward.

Good for you, let's see how long this kind of reward can last for the majority of the EE players. My concerns are about the legitivity of such reward for the toughest content. It can be fun for a while to DPS for the sake of it but when there is no real tactic involved, it gets tedious from my point of view. If you don't like farming but plays EEs only for the sake of the challenge on a daily basis... for months... there may be something you don't realize that you're doing. Just saying.



And I was not presenting an idea so you don't have to /not sign. I'm showcasing different mentalities while trying to understand how does having different tier of loot for different difficulty can be so damaging to the players in this one game.

[slarden]

Good for you, let's see how long this kind of reward can last for the majority of the EE players. My concerns are about the legitivity of such reward for the toughest content. It can be fun for a while to DPS for the sake of it but when there is no real tactic involved, it gets tedious from my point of view. If you don't like farming but plays EEs only for the sake of the challenge on a daily basis... for months... there may be something you don't realize that you're doing. Just saying.



Most of the people I see in EE parties are on the ETR train and want the big saga reward that comes with EE and the covs which come with EE. Those are both very significant rewards. Prior to ETR there were less people running EE content regularly.

[Azarddoze]

Most of the people I see in EE parties are on the ETR train and want the big saga reward that comes with EE and the covs which come with EE. Those are both very significant rewards. Prior to ETR there were less people running EE content regularly.

Fair enought if they all consider this as proper rewards for running the toughest content, Turbine already won. And if you and they honestly do, well I may have been totally wrong when I thought that most people looking to run EEs were looking for something more than that. I'm fine with that as well as I'm not proclaiming I hold the truth at all, i'm mostly guessing from what I think it should be
--- good for all without totally throwing the sponge on any sort of enjoyable endgame.

Though it's the thoughts of those running EH that i'm looking to hear. Like why more than good enought gear doesn't suffice suddently because there's a new tier. Why doesn't it simply become something to aim for if you wish to.

[Standal]

Fair enought if they all consider this as proper rewards for running the toughest content, Turbine already won. And if you and they honestly do, well I may have been totally wrong when I thought that most people looking to run EEs were looking for something more than that. I'm fine with that as well as I'm not proclaiming I hold the truth at all, i'm mostly guessing from what I think it should be
--- good for all without totally throwing the sponge on any sort of enjoyable endgame.

Though it's the thoughts of those running EH that i'm looking to hear. Like why more than good enought gear doesn't suffice suddently because there's a new tier. Why doesn't it simply become something to aim for if you wish to.

DDO is a grindfest to improve your character. You improve your character by either grinding some form of TR or grinding gear. I don't think any player should be excluded from having the best gear because of their ability to complete the hardest content. The hardest content should either have a higher droprate of an non-upgradeable item (Dun Robar rings), partially or fully upgraded items (FOT loot), or more upgrade ingredients (FOT COH, or Shroud extra chests). These systems allow EE capable people to get their shinies first, but allow everyone willing to put in the grind to get what they want eventually.

[Ausdoerrt]

As much as I don't like to admit it, things have changed and some of us are more "old school". Stuff like buying the best gear from AH or acquiring it without overcoming the toughest challenge (or something unique) isn't something that some might be used to. Or at least, let say we weren't 5 years ago. I honestly understand the "services" feel to it where you can pay to win time and see how there is a need for it. It is not the problem of the industry (even if they like it) that some people end up crazy and spends thousands on the game. What I mean is I kinda understand how it turned out. Not how the players did... but the industry.
This is why ASAH/BtCoE etc. is bad.


This all works out fine if the EH player has access to things, but it's more efficient to run EE if you really want that gear. Right now it's not - look at the new raids. Want to get an item from the raid? Right now, you can run it on EN, and you'll almost certainly get your 20th list and get the item there before you get the item in a chest. Or you can run it on EE...and almost certainly get your 20th list before you get the item in a chest, because even on EE the drop rates are virtually nothing*. And while in theory there are +6 tomes in the EE chest list...it's just theory because I haven't heard of a single one dropping yet.
This is why Raid Bypasses are bad.

[Derana]

As much as I don't like to admit it, things have changed and some of us are more "old school". Stuff like buying the best gear from AH or acquiring it without overcoming the toughest challenge (or something unique) isn't something that some might be used to. Or at least, let say we weren't 5 years ago. I honestly understand the "services" feel to it where you can pay to win time and see how there is a need for it. It is not the problem of the industry (even if they like it) that some people end up crazy and spends thousands on the game. What I mean is I kinda understand how it turned out. Not how the players did... but the industry.

Here's what I'd like to say/ask to those people who sees this as the "normality" in term of MMO and that's how it should be : It's not for everyone. Couldn't it be possible, in a game structured around casual needs that we could have, us powergamers, that little part of the game called EE where the difficulty is not even comparable to EH, what we're interrested in? Something that would be more rewarding for a bigger challenge. And if you want to join in the fun and try it, you'd even have access to something more too.

Don't see those top tier of items as something you need when you don't in reality. See them as a possible motivation that could lead you to be a in-game hero! Or simply a new step, might you feel interrested at one point. About no one in DDO seems to be an egomaniac powergamer and wants to have the best gear only to show it around. That is why you shouldn't see it as such.


I don't know if those people i'm refering to are a loud minority or a majority but they seem to be the ones leading the choices of the industry and precisely DDO's. And I don't even mind the game being shaped for a mainstream audience, all I ask is that a little part of the game could still cater to the group i'm trying to represent.


*Hopefully those "I" = a couple more people than just me.

The shard exchange, raid timers and the things that come along with it are destroying ddo more and more. The only thing missing is selling raid gear there but raid timers do the service here. With every new update, people come back and play for 2 weeks till their either bought or raid timer farmed their gear. Then, they either quit again because they got all the good gear or they play a couple of weeks to do 1 or 2 epic tr's, maybe iconic tr's to then quit again and move on to other, more entertaining games.

Sarlona dies out more and more after every update and with the best gear being so easy to get. People just buy their stuff and quit because everyone quits and groups are harder to fill, and i am not a person who enjoys playing solo all the time, so I understand those that quit till the next update is outand will possibly take part in that as well sooner or later. There are only so many epic tr's left till i am done with that and then the great boredome kicks in because I have the best possible gear on my main which is the only one I play anyway, and I got it after a week of farming haunted halls and the raids. I don't need haunted halls anymore, I don't need the new raids with 3 (LOL!) raid items each because I have the 2 out of 6 most useful (bracers, shield) items and why should I bother running that now? 0,0000000001% chance on a +6 tome? Not worth the effort, that would be like running CiTW for comms.

I know that many ppl didnt like the seal-shard-scroll system because it was too much "grind" for someone that logs into the game only one hour per week. But it kept us busy for months, there were lots of items that people used while now, the power creep gets bigger and bigger and selling loot on the shard exchange doesnt help it but makes it worse. I really wonder if selling a few shards and raid timers for $ is worth it in exchange for ruining the game.

p.s. I know that the (enter bannable word here) helps a lot as well when wanting the best possible gear as fast as possible, and it also ruins a lot.

Maybe you guys should focus on fixing this, update ALL of the old epics and its gear (they are all rather lvl 26 quests anyway on ee than lvl 20-21, leave alone the fact that the mobs have over 10k hp in a 6 ppl group) and stop selling the items for shards.

[slarden]

The shard exchange, raid timers and the things that come along with it are destroying ddo more and more. The only thing missing is selling raid gear there but raid timers do the service here. With every new update, people come back and play for 2 weeks till their either bought or raid timer farmed their gear. Then, they either quit again because they got all the good gear or they play a couple of weeks to do 1 or 2 epic tr's, maybe iconic tr's to then quit again and move on to other, more entertaining games.

Sarlona dies out more and more after every update and with the best gear being so easy to get. People just buy their stuff and quit because everyone quits and groups are harder to fill, and i am not a person who enjoys playing solo all the time, so I understand those that quit till the next update is outand will possibly take part in that as well sooner or later. There are only so many epic tr's left till i am done with that and then the great boredome kicks in because I have the best possible gear on my main which is the only one I play anyway, and I got it after a week of farming haunted halls and the raids. I don't need haunted halls anymore, I don't need the new raids with 3 (LOL!) raid items each because I have the 2 out of 6 most useful (bracers, shield) items and why should I bother running that now? 0,0000000001% chance on a +6 tome? Not worth the effort, that would be like running CiTW for comms.

I know that many ppl didnt like the seal-shard-scroll system because it was too much "grind" for someone that logs into the game only one hour per week. But it kept us busy for months, there were lots of items that people used while now, the power creep gets bigger and bigger and selling loot on the shard exchange doesnt help it but makes it worse. I really wonder if selling a few shards and raid timers for $ is worth it in exchange for ruining the game.

p.s. I know that the (enter bannable word here) helps a lot as well when wanting the best possible gear as fast as possible, and it also ruins a lot.

Maybe you guys should focus on fixing this, update ALL of the old epics and its gear (they are all rather lvl 26 quests anyway on ee than lvl 20-21, leave alone the fact that the mobs have over 10k hp in a 6 ppl group) and stop selling the items for shards.

I do a mix of grouping and solo - probably 75% grouping and 25% soloing but it varies from week to week.

There needs to be a good mix of loot with varying drop rates by content. If you look at pre-U14 I thought the mix was very good and appropriate

EASY FARMING GEAR
--------------------
Festivals
Shroud
TOD
Cannith Challenges

MODERATE FARMING GEAR
-------------------------
House P Epics
House D epics
Red Fens Epics
eChrono
VOD + Hound

HEAVY FARMING GEAR
-------------------------
e Sands
e VON

You could get 75% of top tier gear fairly easily, 90% moderately easy and the remaining 10% you had to farm until your eyes fell out. This was great for casual players and gave the power gamers something to strive for so they can link it in part chat. The only issue I had with it is that items like eSOS was the most powerful melee item in the game and it came down to a lottery system. Someone could run 2 epics and be done and someone else could run 200 and still be short after watching wizards and sorcs looting the eSOS shards that dropped (yeah I know they are bta - just saying).

The casuals lost their easy farming runs - festival gear is out of date. There is no epic raid like shroud/TOD and challenge gear is out of date.

The hardcore gamers lost their endless grind to be one of the few on Sarlona with a super rare item. The new raids have so few items compared to older raids and the bracers are outstanding, but I honestly really don't want to give up my healing amp and superior parrying so although I am using it now - I may ultimately swap it out.

I don't have too much issue with people buying and selling gear, but if people are going to pay I would rather see them spend $ on re-rolls because at least they are running the content to get their item even if the re-roll makes it easier to get their items. Even if people buy loot in the short term they will ultimately get sick of that if they can't earn it on their own.

I don't mind tiered loot - I don't like exclusive tiered loot. FOT was ok because it was upgradable by people running all difficulties.

As you said, the bannable word is problematic because it distorts supply. The supply dried up now but for a time you could get 50 runs worth of mats for a few hundred K on the AH.

[Derana]

I do a mix of grouping and solo - probably 75% grouping and 25% soloing but it varies from week to week.

There needs to be a good mix of loot with varying drop rates by content. If you look at pre-U14 I thought the mix was very good and appropriate

EASY FARMING GEAR
--------------------
Festivals
Shroud
TOD
Cannith Challenges

MODERATE FARMING GEAR
-------------------------
House P Epics
House D epics
Red Fens Epics
eChrono
VOD + Hound

HEAVY FARMING GEAR
-------------------------
e Sands
e VON

You could get 75% of top tier gear fairly easily, 90% moderately easy and the remaining 10% you had to farm until your eyes fell out. This was great for casual players and gave the power gamers something to strive for so they can link it in part chat. The only issue I had with it is that items like eSOS was the most powerful melee item in the game and it came down to a lottery system. Someone could run 2 epics and be done and someone else could run 200 and still be short after watching wizards and sorcs looting the eSOS shards that dropped (yeah I know they are bta - just saying).

The casuals lost their easy farming runs - festival gear is out of date. There is no epic raid like shroud/TOD and challenge gear is out of date.

The hardcore gamers lost their endless grind to be one of the few on Sarlona with a super rare item. The new raids have so few items compared to older raids and the bracers are outstanding, but I honestly really don't want to give up my healing amp and superior parrying so although I am using it now - I may ultimately swap it out.

I don't have too much issue with people buying and selling gear, but if people are going to pay I would rather see them spend $ on re-rolls because at least they are running the content to get their item even if the re-roll makes it easier to get their items. Even if people buy loot in the short term they will ultimately get sick of that if they can't earn it on their own.

I don't mind tiered loot - I don't like exclusive tiered loot. FOT was ok because it was upgradable by people running all difficulties.

As you said, the bannable word is problematic because it distorts supply. The supply dried up now but for a time you could get 50 runs worth of mats for a few hundred K on the AH.
This, entirely.

And I really don't understand why this is so hard to understand. We don't need 3bc or new amenities.. I am quite sure we are fine without either update for a while, while we are in real need of good epics and more so, good epic loot. We don't need lvl 30 either, in fact it will only make things worse and worse. First of all, we need our old epic quests and loot updated, more than any other fancy update.

[Azarddoze]

DDO is a grindfest to improve your character. You improve your character by either grinding some form of TR or grinding gear. I don't think any player should be excluded from having the best gear because of their ability to complete the hardest content. The hardest content should either have a higher droprate of an non-upgradeable item (Dun Robar rings), partially or fully upgraded items (FOT loot), or more upgrade ingredients (FOT COH, or Shroud extra chests). These systems allow EE capable people to get their shinies first, but allow everyone willing to put in the grind to get what they want eventually.

Agreed. And I'd be more than happy if it would "allow everyone willing to put in the grind to get what they want eventually".

Goal isn't to have something more in the end. It's to give the end game a bit more longetivity or simply anything to do for an end game only players who'se only purpose isn't grinding. It's fun to acquire PL but it can't be the only thing in sight for years for everyone. The next update is 5 quests + 1 raid. If there is still no reason to play EEs other than faster grinding, who'se really gonna do that for another 6 months before the next one?

At some point, only the ones stuck in the game for various reasons (social, time/money invested) will keep playing. I thought I was gonna play more being on vacation for 2 weeks but I didn't even touch the game twice... and it's my "main" game. I've played enought MMOs to recognize when fun becomes mindless grinding. No endgame obviously promotes exactly that.


I also have a big problem with the grind being to acquire character power but there is no incentive to actually use that power that you paid for.

[Sebastrd]

Agreed. And I'd be more than happy if it would "allow everyone willing to put in the grind to get what they want eventually".

Goal isn't to have something more in the end. It's to give the end game a bit more longetivity or simply anything to do for an end game only players who'se only purpose isn't grinding.

I think at last we understand one another, Frodo Baggins.

[Azarddoze]

I think at last we understand one another, Frodo Baggins.

My english is just too bad and way too limited by the number of words I can commonly use. It really takes me time to get my points across... repeating with a different twist everytime until I find a correct way to phrase something the right way. That explains why i'm vague all the time I guess.

That was my stance since the beginning. It was never about taking something away from others, it's about having something for everyone. Maybe in a PvP focused game i'd see it differently, but here there's no damage done when it comes to loot accessibility.

[EllisDee37]

Now one question: If most EH gear would suffice, the upgrades being minor, and just one EE piece would require you to actually run the quest for real (let's say it's not tradable and you want it bad), would you do it or is there no chance at all and you'll just be mad about it.I wouldn't do it. I'd plan for a different gearset. If not being able to get that one item forced massive gear changes (just in the planning stage, assuming I have no gear at all yet) that resulted in a less attractive combination, I would probably be a little mad about it. Like, for example, if I could wear torc if I could have the EE item, but not having the EE item meant I couldn't slot torc, then I'd be mad.


EE is little different than the heroic difference between hard and elite once you get to level 10+This isn't true. A couple quick examples: Guard effects (like torc, for example) aren't useful in EE but they're great everywhere else. Torc is very much awesome in high level heroic elites.

Another example is the concentration skill. It's quite effective everywhere except EE, where it may as well not even exist. (Aside from archers.) In the rest of the game it's a build choice between quicken or concentration. In EE, it's quicken or go home.

The big one is incoming melee damage. If you look at it as a % of player hit points, each EE hit is way out of scale to the rest of the game. This changes things quite a bit, as evidenced by the increase in range builds to sidestep the issue altogether.

DCs in EE are unforgiving in a game-changing way. You have flexibility in building a heroic DC caster, like splashing for evasion or maybe focusing on three or four schools. Related to this are weapon effects that have a DC, like for example paralyzing. Paralyzing weapons are highly effective in high level heroic elites. I wouldn't bother equipping one in EE.

[Nédime]

It’s hard for your mom and dad to be proud when you major achievement in life is soloing the Wiz King on elite. Just sayin’…

This is really, really mean. I mean how can you write this, well hidden behind your computer, and continue staring at your face in the mirror ? I'm so sorry for you. And ofc it is reported.

[bsquishwizzy]

Thank you for your great advice, just what I needed to seize you better. Totally sorry for mastering something as simple as a keyboard and mouse after 25+ years of practice. I know it's hard to believe that some were born with good reflexes, vision, awareness, and the kind of intelligence that makes you be good at games and then they got better naturaly... but it's a reality. Sucking at something is one thing, but the ones that are better than you don't become "stupid" or "no life punks" just because their interrest aren't the same as yours. Anyone may chose to invest his time into anything and kudo if they do it with the mentality of getting better at it.

Powergamer has nothing to do with being good. At all. But powergamers are usually good since their goals are what they are.

About Mom and dad: You should have quit before getting there as you have no idea who you're talking to. You could be right but not in this case, sorry.


This sentiment is always hilarious to read when written by someone onto a video game internet message board.

I have other hobbies, one of which is golf. Am I a good golfer? Probably not.

But, I can use golf for business purposes, for relaxation, and if I REALLY wanted too, I could make a career out of playing golf. This is, of course, putting aside any feeling I have about my profession not producing anything in any way shape or form (sports, all in all, is a form of entertainment).

You can’t do that with video games. And honestly, I would dare show my face in public if that was my calling. Playtesting and QA is one thing, being a pro is another.

I grew up with video games. I rate them at the same level as being really, really good at bridge. If you spend all of your free timer playing bridge, and being proud of that as an accomplishment, you need to have your head examined.

And yes, I have a few modest and *real* accomplishments in life. Less than some, more than others. And yes, I also mock those avid golfers who need to spend $1,500.00 on the latest Ping irons, wear the latest Nike gear, and proudly display the medals of the famous Scottish golf course they played last weekend, whose name I’ve never heard of. Unless you are winning a $200,000 purse for playing that course, I really don’t care.


This is really, really mean. I mean how can you write this, well hidden behind your computer, and continue staring at your face in the mirror ? I'm so sorry for you. And ofc it is reported.

Simple: because it is true.

And please do report me. If telling someone that you’re on the fast track to being a loser in life because the only good thing you’ve done in it is scored high in Amrath is so damaging, I don’t want to be around when said individual hits 40 and wonders why in the hell he can’t make it being a fry cook at McDonalds. (Which, I might add, is more productive than being a powergamer in any MMO. Sorry.)

Oh yeah, I tell my kids basically the same thing.

In short: grow up. Life is gonna be rough if you want to remain an adolescent until your dying day…

[Phrida]

As for powergames…really? People actually invest that much time in playing video games? Wow.

Take some advice: do something useful. Maybe put an addition on your house…you neighbor’s house…take up playing the mandolin…play canasta with people in the old folks home…something other than being good at video games. It’s hard for your mom and dad to be proud when you major achievement in life is soloing the Wiz King on elite. Just sayin’…

Wow, do you have it wrong. Leave it to idiots to just automatically jump to conclusions based on their own pathetic life to boost their ego. powergaming has nothing to do with playing endless hours, it is about planning what you do with those hours you have to devote to a hobby you like.

I play just a few hours a week, but i plan those hours. i'm very detailed oriented about my builds, so i know and plan what i need for ETR's, TR's and gear so i don't waste the time i have. Oh, and i do this while raising 2 kids and working part-time and having the luxury to fix dinner every night for my husband... *shrug* just sayin'

[patang01]

DDOs problem right now comes from the following events
Random boring loot destroying some of the named.
Easy to trade EE type loot and the stupid EN, EH and EE. Stupid because combined with the ability to trade it completely devalue need to even work to get it. EE might need a carrot, but the EE type stuff is a terrible one. Especially combined with trading.

There's only one system with longevity in this game; Shroud and GS crafting. People still run the raid to this day. You could easily combine this with a base named item and a way to upgrade a few tiers with the top tier needing a rare mat that drops a lot less on EH and more on EE. Then add another type of status ploy for EE. If people want recognition for their status, then find another way other than loot to do it. Not everyone strive to do everything on EE, but most at least have loot in mind as goal. And goals are important because that makes people spend time in the game. Time is good because over time people might spend money and support the longevity of the game. No goals, no reasons to spend time.

EE symbol stuff is just fluff. Goals are way more important in this game. And attainable goals. Impossible ones simply make people look elsewhere. I know that some people like to have shinies that no one else has, but I rather make that cosmetic, something visual that is simply nothing more than a status symbol.

[Azarddoze]

zzz

What's the link in between being good at games and personal success? Even time invested may or may not have anything to do with being good from what I've seen.


When I played WoW, once raid ready, I would log in 2-3 week days in order to raid. My friend, who is mostly a casual player, would play 4 to 6 hours a day looking for heroic dungeons and beating old bosses for mounts. I've played with him, he was bad while my group was leading the server in term of progression. He would sometimes get into a raid but those were mostly random wipe fest after clearing 1-2 easy bosses.

Now I don't even know why you brought your relative success but, while I don't wanna really go deeper on that subject, my friend had a crappy job (that he enjoys though) while I was working as an accountant / partial manager for a small company at that time.

Your logic totally fails to apply because you base it off who you are and that'll never work. If you're having a bad day, you don't have to spit it out on a gaming forum, it's just not the place.

Oh yeah... I also have other hobbies, i'm human too.

[Nédime]

(non sense)

So to be clear : you play DDO but you have a real life, hobbies and high driving goals.
But all of us don't, no, because all we do is play DDO.

One word : Bravo (http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/3472553/WE+HAVE+A+WINNER/) !





In short: grow up. Life is gonna be rough if you want to remain an adolescent until your dying day…

Oh, and btw, I'm 40, I have a daughter, hobbies, a job, a family life, I have my own achievments (but I don't play golf, for sure lol, I prefer real sports) and I sure don't need your advice.

[Turbosilk]

I wouldn't do it. I'd plan for a different gearset. If not being able to get that one item forced massive gear changes (just in the planning stage, assuming I have no gear at all yet) that resulted in a less attractive combination, I would probably be a little mad about it. Like, for example, if I could wear torc if I could have the EE item, but not having the EE item meant I couldn't slot torc, then I'd be mad.

This isn't true. A couple quick examples: Guard effects (like torc, for example) aren't useful in EE but they're great everywhere else. Torc is very much awesome in high level heroic elites.

Another example is the concentration skill. It's quite effective everywhere except EE, where it may as well not even exist. (Aside from archers.) In the rest of the game it's a build choice between quicken or concentration. In EE, it's quicken or go home.

The big one is incoming melee damage. If you look at it as a % of player hit points, each EE hit is way out of scale to the rest of the game. This changes things quite a bit, as evidenced by the increase in range builds to sidestep the issue altogether.

DCs in EE are unforgiving in a game-changing way. You have flexibility in building a heroic DC caster, like splashing for evasion or maybe focusing on three or four schools. Related to this are weapon effects that have a DC, like for example paralyzing. Paralyzing weapons are highly effective in high level heroic elites. I wouldn't bother equipping one in EE.

It's EE, wear a +20 concentration item. And a caster shouldn't be face fighting mobs in EE.

[EllisDee37]

It's EE, wear a +20 concentration item. And a caster shouldn't be face fighting mobs in EE.Who said anything about casters?