Swashbuckler Update & Single Weapon Fighting Feats

[stoopid_cowboy]

So . . . did this terrible idea get any better in the last 12 pages?

Let's see what Varg has to say...


Some clarifications, answers, thoughts, and disappointments:

Nope, still terrible...

Lots of good feedback given, most of it IGNORED.

[Cardtrick]

Great post, some good thoughts.

Did you see anywhere that I departed too far from the reality of the game?

One thing I noticed after I did a bit more testing last night is that I'm pretty sure I was wrong about glancing blows not being able to miss. I don't really know why I thought that, anyway -- just something I was told once. (It's just hard to see the glancing misses in the combat log.) So I think contribution of glancing blow damage needs to be reduced to 95% of what I listed. That doesn't make any real difference anyway, of course, since single weapon fighting with all 3 feats is apparently still a long ways behind two handed fighting with no feats. Even if there were no glancing blows at all, just the 1.5 strength modifier and increased power attack damage would be significantly superior to SWF.

I think you'd be better off combining a DPS contribution with a unique benefit, and make the DPS contribution something that's straight up multiplicative and therefore easy to balance -- either doublestrike or attack speed.

If the old technical problems that led to the elimination of most attack speed boosts have been resolved or are no longer relevant, I would prefer that for uniqueness. Something like a 15% attack speed improvement with each level of the feat would seem to be about right (stacking additively, not multiplicatively, for a total of 45%). With my numbers, SWF with all 3 levels of the feat would then lead to marginally better damage than THF with no feats, but considerably worse than THF with all 3 feats. Higher strength bonuses would skew toward THF, but weapons with higher on-damage or on-crit procs would skew toward SWF. SWF would be more akin to TWF than to THF (e.g., it would be more negatively impacted by enemy DR due to having more attacks but smaller numbers).

For the "unique benefit", I really like Unbongwah's suggestion of a "Deflect Melee" that works similarly to "Deflect Arrow" and improves with each level of the feat.

[Silken-Akira]

Some clarifications, answers, thoughts, and disappointments:



Thanks for the follow up, I think I I'll wait till the next version of the feats/tree before giving more opinions.
Last thing I do want to know if there are any plans for although is if there are plans for other feats (like some linked to Precision) with the new update besides the SWF ones.

[Nédime]

Our current list of weapons that wouldn't work under those rules is:

(...)

Sheridan's Ruin
Sheridan's Wrack


Poor Sheridan, he must really not have been very Yarrh

[Seikojin]

Let's see what Varg has to say...



Nope, still terrible...

Lots of good feedback given, most of it IGNORED.

None of it is ignored, lack of response != ignore.

[Seikojin]

I just really feel 3 feats for swf is a waste of feats. No one would take them unless they needed them for something, just like greater weapon specialization.

Up on lam yet? :D

[Chai]

That's not what's meant in the original post. A weapon with more than one Weapon Die Multiplier, such as the base Alchemical Dwarven Waraxe 2[1d10] would work fine.

The few that wouldn't are items with more than one base Weapon Die, like the Axe of Famine, which is [2d8].

Our current list of weapons that wouldn't work under those rules is:
Agony, Knife in the Dark
Axe of Famine
Braisingstar
Zephyr (Heroic Only)
Shining Crescents
Obsidian Dagger
Axe of the Unseen Blow
Xoriat Forged Blade
Tharkuul's Bane
Coronation
Phosphor
Twinblade
Sheridan's Ruin
Sheridan's Wrack

If you're aware of any others, please let us know.

The pre-req that a weapon needs to have 1 base damage dice is a terrible pre-req. You already have the tech to add dice steps and half dice steps as you use it on monk unarmed damage, so why not use the same tech on buffing the weapon damage on single weapon fighting?

[Caprice]

This is a design digression and completely biased by the movie presentation of Swashbucklers, but in those movies we see swashbuckler-types as combatants who disable enemies as much through smart tactics as through actual weapon use - kicking over tables to knock down several foes at once, or cutting down a tapestry to entangle someone, etc. However it does not feel to me like there are that many tactical abilities here. We get a little of that in the mutually exclusive Slap In The Face/Low Blow option, and save debuffs from Insults, but that's it. More tactical moves might be a way to make the tree more competitive in general without specifically making it more powerful in terms of direct DPS parity with the other combat styles.

For example StD has Overbalance as its core 2, a no save KD effect that procs on vorpal shield hits. The low attack rate on shields balances the no save effect. Maybe Swashbuckling should include an automatic Trip proc on vorpal hits or something like that? No save would be really nice for this, and since you are fighting with one weapon the attack rate is slower than either other combat style so the number of procs is not going to be out of hand, but I think it probably would require an inherent cooldown to keep it in check.

Maybe work in a free grant of the Improved Trip, Sap, and/or Improved Sunder feats too? All are thematically appropriate, nice but not overpowered, and Bards are feat constrained so getting one as a freebie would be a nice perk.

On that note Different Tack probably should be adjusted to include use of the alternate stat modifiers to tactics as well as to damage. As long as STR is the only stat that helps with tactics DCs*, there will always be a gap in the use and effectiveness of those abilities.
(* Or WIS, but Bards can't multiclass Monk so they aren't relevant to Different Tack.)

This might actually be a viable option for SWF too: grant improved tactics DCs rather than higher damage. It would give the fighting style a distinct benefit that isn't a direct DPS boost (but can be indirectly due to Helplessness) and would potentially make it desirable to Fighters using S&B and even Monks using SF and QP that are willing to swap to a single weapon and do less damage. It would be really interesting if the line also reduced the cooldowns on tactics abilities as well as the DCs so you could use them more often, although I would exclude the Monk abilities from that.

[jakeelala]

Anyone else getting the impression that they just want Bards to be mediocre? I mean they always have been. And now, with this new prestige, they can still be mediocre, but in a different way.

Le Sigh.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Anyone else getting the impression that they just want Bards to be mediocre? I mean they always have been. And now, with this new prestige, they can still be mediocre, but in a different way.

Le Sigh.

I think it's even worse than that. I think that they want Bards to be good and that they actually think that this *is* good. The problem comes from a fundamental misunderstanding on Turbine's part over what makes a character more effective vs. a character that is less effective.

[Scrabbler]

This is certainly up for discussion. We'd have to figure out what it would mean to 'not allow it'. We could just put anti-requisites on THF, TWF, and SWF (which kills a few builds that could theoretically want to switch between them), or we could turn them into exclusive stances, or maybe something else. We'd have to spend some time investigating the possibilities.
It should be simple to just add a rule to the SWF feat text saying that Bastard and Waraxe aren't eligible for the feat benefits, since they're too big or something ("Hand And A Half"). Not doing that will probably mean that if the SWF line is buffed, Dwarf Fighters with GSWF + GTHF using Waraxe will be too good compared to ones using Greataxe.

If that makes you feel bad for the Bastard items, you could follow it up with a separate rule that users of Bastard and Waraxe weapons who have their offhand empty will receive +0.5 str mod damage and 2x Power Attack bonus. That happens to be an exact rule from the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook...

[Cardtrick]

If that makes you feel bad for the Bastard items, you could follow it up with a separate rule that users of Bastard and Waraxe weapons who have their offhand empty will receive +0.5 str mod damage and 2x Power Attack bonus. That happens to be an exact rule from the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook...

That actually makes a lot of sense. Bastard swords would then act like normal one-handed weapons if being used for two-weapon fighting, like a hybrid if used with a shield (only 1x strength bonus and +5 power attack, but with glancing blows and affected by the THF feats) or exactly like a two-handed weapon if used with an empty off hand.

Regardless of what happens with SWF, that seems like a change that would be worth making.

[Scrabbler]

Our current list of weapons that wouldn't work under those rules is:
It isn't consistent to restrict the SWF feat just because a handful of named weapons can gain more from it than most weapons do.

The Swashbuckler core 2 enhancement gives a far far greater bonus to a tiny list of named weapons, like Death's Touch, Epic Cutthroat's Smallblade, Sky Pirate Dagger, Skullsmasher, and so on. The extra bonus they gain is pretty much enough to disqualify any other same-level weapons from being worthy for a Swashbuckler to equip. But there is no text in the enhancement to say "this bonus doesn't apply to weapons with extra critical range or critical threat".

[Holybird]

In my opinion Single-weapon fighting feats should give 10% unique bonus to attack speed per feat + 7% douplestrike. Too tired at the moment to do the math but I think it would still lack behind THF and TWF but at least it would be useful. With no offence devs, there is a lot of great feedback in this thread. Only thing that you have to do is listen these guys, because they know what they are talking about.





P.S I'm pretty sure that I will try Swasbuckler when it hits live, can hardly wait

[jakeelala]

maybe it's because bard is free

[Cardtrick]

EDIT: I think I'm wrong in this post. I threw it together without any real calculations, just going by feel since I don't have good numbers for TWF yet. (I know more about THF and it's also a lot easier to model in a spreadsheet and compare directly to SWF.) But anyway, I think this should be disregarded -- I'm just leaving it up because a couple of people quoted me and I want to leave it for context.



In my opinion Single-weapon fighting feats should give 10% unique bonus to attack speed per feat + 7% douplestrike. Too tired at the moment to do the math but I think it would still lack behind THF and TWF but at least it would be useful. With no offence devs, there is a lot of great feedback in this thread. Only thing that you have to do is listen these guys, because they know what they are talking about.



I believe that would be considerably better than TWF (without the enhancements to boost offhand procs to 100%). It would be a little better than THF against a single target, but worse against multiple targets.

Once you start considering enhancements, it all gets muddled. SWF would be boosted by Swashbuckler, but TWF would be boosted by ranger or shintao to get 100% off-hand procs, bringing it up much closer to SWF.

Still, I think that's definitely too strong, considering it would enable use of a buckler/runearm/orb to give additional benefits.

I had originally been thinking 15% attack speed with each tier, but I also think that might be too strong -- not quite as strong as your suggestion here, but comparable. Better would probably be 10% with tier 1 and tier 2 and then 15% with tier 3, for a total of 35%. This would be noticeably behind TWF and THF for pure DPS, though nowhere near as far behind as the currently suggested feats, so you'd also need some other benefit -- ideally something unique, like Unbongwah's suggestion of melee deflection.


EDIT: Unless you meant that the +7% doublestrike would be a one-time thing granted only with the tier 3 feat. I had been thinking you meant 7% per feat, but maybe I read it wrong. 7% granted just at tier 3 would be a lot more balanced, although I think you'd still need some other benefit to sweeten the pot for SWF.

[BigErkyKid]

If one thinks carefully about it, there is a bit of an stalmate when it comes to 1h weapons.

Realistically speaking, the main problem of using two weapons is that you may be more clumsy with them. However, a long line of feats have already demolished that disadvantage. Now what ma have acted as a natural balance if coded in the game rules is no longer a possibility

Now how to boost 1h fighting in a way that makes sense? Not only balance wise, but in pseudo melee lore. Well, I would say that since you cannot make characters less dexterous with their TWF style, you have to make them more dexterous if only holding one weapon.

OK, so what advantages should that entail in practical terms, this additional dexterity?

1. More damage behind your blows. THF gets additional bonus from strength, so we not SWF? Something in between 1.25 and 1.5 (same as THF) would be good IMO.

2. Better critical range and or critical multiplier. You are more accurate, no doubt about that.

Now exactly what does it mean to have additional dice? It seems rather ad hoc. And by the looks of it, not very powerful.

Thanks cardtrick for the numbers, I was about to do them myself (your post got hidden in the pile...). However, the one thing I would have interested to see is how much additional damage is brought by this feats. I suspect that not much. I think we already have some gut feelings regarding SWF without feats and THF.

It is hard to talk about balance, though, without putting together the perks of the spare hand into the equation.

PS:

Right now most shielders are using bswords and dwarves. Would it pay to:

1. Use another weapon and SWF feats.
2. Choose dwarxes or bswords with SWF and not THF.

For me those two questions are relevant to whether this is helpful at all beyond complementing their new bard tree.

[Hafeal]

I agree with you and this was similar to my suggestion on the PC that there should be a % chance for a Stun, SAP, or Trip.


Swashbucklers should be able to apply debuffs as a % chance on each hit and critical hit. Some examples of debuffs worth applying on every hit as a % chance include:



Hamstring
Improved Feint
Destruction
1 damage of a random stat
Bleed damage


And some examples of debuffs worth applying on a critical hit as a % chance include:



Stunned (Or paralyzed)
1d6 damage of a random stat (bypasses epic ward)
Improved Destruction
Crippled
Extra stacks of bleed


Keep in mind these are examples, and that there are definitely better debuffs that could also be added to the list. In short: Think of a swashbuckler's offensive attacks as debuffs that trigger as randomly as colors of the queen, though with different % chances than colors of the queen.

[Seikojin]

The pre-req that a weapon needs to have 1 base damage dice is a terrible pre-req. You already have the tech to add dice steps and half dice steps as you use it on monk unarmed damage, so why not use the same tech on buffing the weapon damage on single weapon fighting?

I think there may be a bug with feats doing +1[W], so they need something else. Which makes me wonder, with swf, what if you put your weapon in your offhand slot and nothing in your main hand? Shouldn't it work like normal swings, or does it always treat one hand as main and the other as off (right and left respectively)?


Anyone else getting the impression that they just want Bards to be mediocre? I mean they always have been. And now, with this new prestige, they can still be mediocre, but in a different way.

Le Sigh.


I think it's even worse than that. I think that they want Bards to be good and that they actually think that this *is* good. The problem comes from a fundamental misunderstanding on Turbine's part over what makes a character more effective vs. a character that is less effective.

All the more reason to chant; put on lam!


That actually makes a lot of sense. Bastard swords would then act like normal one-handed weapons if being used for two-weapon fighting, like a hybrid if used with a shield (only 1x strength bonus and +5 power attack, but with glancing blows and affected by the THF feats) or exactly like a two-handed weapon if used with an empty off hand.

Regardless of what happens with SWF, that seems like a change that would be worth making.

It would be nice.

[Caprice]

Anyone else getting the impression that they just want Bards to be mediocre? I mean they always have been. And now, with this new prestige, they can still be mediocre, but in a different way.

I think it's even worse than that. I think that they want Bards to be good and that they actually think that this *is* good. The problem comes from a fundamental misunderstanding on Turbine's part over what makes a character more effective vs. a character that is less effective.
I think that's a bit harsh. I agree that they aren't trying to make this a really excellent, perfectly tuned DPS tree but if they made this PrE on its own good enough to match a Monk2/Paladin2 splash or Centered Kensai then the game just becomes more difficult to balance. I prefer to look at it as a statement about how powerful they want characters to be. Yes, the bar they are suggesting is a lot lower than we might want, and there are a lot of pieces that just don't fit together well with each other or other parts of the game, but that's probably deliberate especially since we've had one round of commentary and the devs have decided which feedback to include and which to ignore.

Bards were already okay in most content (not Monk-level great, maybe, but generally competent). Even a dedicated Swashbuckler will still have access to most of the best buffs, good healing, and really solid CCing just from the base class, and this tree does not undermine those... well, other than the bit where many of us now expect that the stance breaks when you equip a scroll because the devs haven't told us otherwise. You can ignore the Swashbuckling stance & SWF and get a few nice low-hanging enhancements (On Your Toes, Blow by Blow, Tavern Shanties, Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement) that ignore the stance and feats entirely. You still get the stacking Dodge, Reflex saves, and MDB increase (insofar as AC matters) from the cores via the Confidence passive that do not depend on the stance, plus Uncanny Dodge from core 2. A minimal AP investment will get you a few Dodge% and other perks. You might even get a little mileage out of Swashbuckling stance situationally by leaving the offhand empty and using a thrown weapon for ranged DPS.

For someone looking for optimal performance out of a Bard there's not much here to justify not multiclassing and going THF or TWF instead (e.g. 15Bard/3Rogue/2Fighter for Evasion, Assassin's DEX to damage with all finesseable weapons, extra feats and boosts), but that's true of almost every class and a good number of PrEs. After all the min-max build for almost every class splashes Monk 2 and/or Paladin 2, S&B is also a flavor choice despite having 2 PrEs essetially dedicated to it, and IIUC quite a few capstones are at least partially broken anyway.

There will be people who enjoy this for the flavor alone. I'll roll one regardless of how the tree works out, but that's because I play for fun more than being optimal. I just expect that I'll gravitate back to Spellsinger in time.

Now the SWF feats? No comment. ;-)

[Death_Mystic]

I still think that CHA to ATK should be added somewhere. Also Dex and Int for that matter to compliment Different Tack. Maybe make Different Tack a 2 rankable where you get Stat to Atk then next rank Stat to atk and Damage.

I know its not going to happen but i think it should be lower tier also, The PDK gets theirs as tier 1. So I think it would be fine as a tier 2 ability.

Just my 2 copper

[Cardtrick]

IThanks cardtrick for the numbers, I was about to do them myself (your post got hidden in the pile...). However, the one thing I would have interested to see is how much additional damage is brought by this feats. I suspect that not much. I think we already have some gut feelings regarding SWF without feats and THF.

You're right, I should just have included that. The table was getting a little wide, so I decided I didn't care as much about the column. (It's no surprise to anyone that SWF with no feats is worse than THF, but I thought it was important to make it obvious that SWF even with all three feats was much worse than THF with no feats at all.)

Still, easy enough to add that. In the table below, I have also applied a 5% reduction (multiplier of .95) to glancing blows to cover the fact that I have learned they can miss and apparently do auto-miss on a 1 like normal hits do. For anyone seeing this table for the first time, please see my previous post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441556-Swashbuckler-Update-amp-Single-Weapon-Fighting-Feats?p=5323686&viewfull=1#post5323686) for a discussion on where I'm getting these numbers and what my assumptions/simplifications are.



Swing
Falchion (THF Feats)
Falchion (No Feats)
Rapier (SWF Feats)
Rapier (No Feats)


1
Miss: 0
Miss: 0
Miss: 0
Miss: 0


2-14
Hit: 4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 10 (power attack)
+ 5 (misc)
+ .95 * .75 * .5 * <above total> (glancing blows)
= 97 base + 34.56 glancing blows
= 131.56 total

Hit: 4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 10 (power attack)
+ 5 (misc)
+ .95 * .50 * .2 * <above total> (glancing blows)
= 97 base + 9.22 glancing blows
= 106.22 total

Hit:
4.5 * Avg[1d(6+6)] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
+ 5 (misc)
= 86.25
Hit:
4.5 * Avg[1d6] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
+ 5 (misc)
= 72.75


15-18
Crit:
2 * (
4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 15 (seeker)
+ 10 (power attack)
+ 5 (misc)
)
+ 34.56 (glancing blows, unaffected by crit)
= 224 base + 34.56 glancing blows
= 258.56 total

Crit:
2 * (
4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 15 (seeker)
+ 10 (power attack)
+ 5 (misc)
)
+ 9.215 (glancing blows, unaffected by crit)
= 224 base + 9.22 glancing blows
= 233.22 total

Crit:
2 * (
4.5 * Avg[1d(6+6)] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 15 (seeker)
+ 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
+ 5 (misc)
)
= 202.50
Crit:
2 * (
4.5 * Avg[1d6] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 15 (seeker)
+ 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
+ 5 (misc)
)
= 175.5


19-20
Extra Crit:
3 * (
4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 15 (seeker)
+ 10 (power attack)
+ 5 (misc)
)
+ 34.56 (glancing blows, unaffected by crit)
= 336 base + 34.56 glancing blows
= 370.56 total

Extra Crit:
3 * (
4.5 * Avg[2d4] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1.5*25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 15 (seeker)
+ 10 (power attack)
+ 5 (misc)
)
+ 9.22 (glancing blows, unaffected by crit)
= 336 base + 9.22 glancing blows
= 345.22 total

Extra Crit:
3 * (
4.5 * Avg[1d(6+6)] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 15 (seeker)
+ 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
+ 5 (misc)
)
= 303.75

Extra Crit:
3 * (
4.5 * Avg[1d6] (base)
+ 12 (enhancement)
+ 1 * 25 (stat modifier)
+ 10 (deadly)
+ 15 (seeker)
+ 5 (power attack or swashbuckler precision)
+ 5 (misc)
)
= 263.25



Total
3486
3004
2539
2174


Per Swing
174
150
127
109



So for Thunderforged weapons with no other +[W] bonuses, the 3 SWF feats add an additional 16.5% to base damage over just using a single handed weapon without the feats. (Unlike TWF feats or -- to a lesser extent -- they do not add anything to other on-hit damage like holy/force/lightning strike/etc.)

These benefits scale strongly with the weapon's [W] modifier. Suppose you were somehow able to get up to 10[W] (currently impossible, I think; definitely impossible for uncentered builds, and even for centered ones it would require Dance of Flowers and using pretty much nothing but a cycle of special attacks with [W] bonuses, and even then I don't see how you could get that high.) In this unlikely/impossible situation, the damage per swing without the feats would be 134.7 while the damage with the feats would be 175.2 -- that's an increase of 30%.

Conversely, if you were to use just a non-TF weapon and don't use a lot of +W attacks, the SWF feats have even less effect. Even for a really good weapon, like Balizarde, since it's only a 2.5[W] weapon. With Balizarde, ignoring the Phlebotomizing, the average damage per swing would be 121 without the feats and 133 with them -- that's only a 10% increase in base damage (and including the Phlebotomizing actually makes it worse).

Of course, as I mentioned in the original post, SWF still wouldn't catch up to THF until you hit something absurd like +200[W].

[mkmcgw17]

Why on Earth does the swashbuckler not get evasion until level 20?? Sorry, but if I played a Swashbuckler, I'm still splashing 2 rogue levels right up front. No way am I slogging through 2/3rds of the game without evasion.

Not useful.

While evasion is a really good feat it is not necessary for any level of play. A cautious player does not require evasion although it does help. If you play with a group and work as a team and have a rogue trapper nobody absolutely needs evasion. The original design for the game was such that a balanced party made up for the individual flaws of the characters. The rogue did the evading. The melee were buffed by the casters to improve they're mediocre saves. Etc. Three of my five characters don't have evasion and i can do most quests on Elite at heroic or epic if I play smart.

[Holybird]

I believe that would be considerably better than TWF (without the enhancements to boost offhand procs to 100%). It would be a little better than THF against a single target, but worse against multiple targets.

Once you start considering enhancements, it all gets muddled. SWF would be boosted by Swashbuckler, but TWF would be boosted by ranger or shintao to get 100% off-hand procs, bringing it up much closer to SWF.

Still, I think that's definitely too strong, considering it would enable use of a buckler/runearm/orb to give additional benefits.

I had originally been thinking 15% attack speed with each tier, but I also think that might be too strong -- not quite as strong as your suggestion here, but comparable. Better would probably be 10% with tier 1 and tier 2 and then 15% with tier 3, for a total of 35%. This would be noticeably behind TWF and THF for pure DPS, though nowhere near as far behind as the currently suggested feats, so you'd also need some other benefit -- ideally something unique, like Unbongwah's suggestion of melee deflection.


EDIT: Unless you meant that the +7% doublestrike would be a one-time thing granted only with the tier 3 feat. I had been thinking you meant 7% per feat, but maybe I read it wrong. 7% granted just at tier 3 would be a lot more balanced, although I think you'd still need some other benefit to sweeten the pot for SWF.

Sorry for my bad English. I was thinking that last feat gives that 7% bonus to douplestrike. And when I now think it, yes that 10% unique bonus to attack speed would maybe be too powerful. Try to imagine 15bard/3druid/2fighter(mad build) with all SWF feats and Fatal Harrier stacked to cap running with +55% attack speed. And while under attack speed boost he/she would have 85% bonus to attack speed. It would definitely look cool but it would maybe be too powerful.




P.S Unbongwah surely knows what he is talking about and IMO his suggestions are very good.

[geoffhanna]

I wish you had put SWF and Swashbuckler into seperate threads instead of continually conflating them.

I wish you would explain why it is better to have SWF feats add to "sides" instead of:


Adding a die step (like unarmed combat)
Adding to weapon enhancement (like divine favored weapons)
Adding to +W (like everything else)


You all just recently finished a sweeping weapons update (the +W change) that was sold to us as a foundational change that would make future development easier. Instead you are abandoning it, in the very first update after the +W developer leaves, in favor of something new that seems to be so wacky that you already have a long list of weapons that have to be excluded.

Why aren't you reusing any of the existing systems that add to weapon damage.

Also:


Do you think that adding three points of damage is worth three feats?
Do you think that adding three points of damage will make SWF competitive with TWF, THF or S&B?
Is making SWF competitive with other styles a design goal? Or is it intended to be a niche thing for Swashbuckling only?
Why are your responses mainly addressing Swashbuckling even though most of the feedback is about SWF?



I'm sorry if this seems strident, I'm on my phone and aren't much if a thumb typist. I'm sure you have thought about all these things and have good answers. Please share!

[mkmcgw17]

Hi! We're presenting some updates for Swashbuckler, and our current ideas for Single-Weapon Fighting Feats.

We've tried to balance these feats against THF and TWF. We feel these will scale well into higher levels, as these bonuses from Single Weapon Fighting are multiplied by higher +(W) weapons. Our current plan allows these feats to work alongside Two-Handed Fighting if you are using a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe. Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.

Internally, we're discussing longer-range possibilities to address some issues with shield builds and thrown builds, which aren't covered by Single Weapon Fighting (except for Swashbuckler's exception where they can use bucklers with SWF).


Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.

Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d10 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (Example: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 2 ranks of Balance


Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +4 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d12 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 4 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +6


Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Improved Single Weapon Fighting increases to +6 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d14 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 7 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +11


https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/Swashbuckler_01May2014.png


Changes in the Tree

Some of the more prominent changes to the tree include allowing Single-Weapon Fighting with a Buckler, putting more into the first core ability, adding in CHA / DEX / INT to-damage enhancements (while Single Weapon Fighting), and adding max-dex bonus to armor and reflex saving throws to both core abilities and Tier 5. Some abilities have also been renamed or had tentative numbers put in for various costs or cooldowns. All names and numbers still subject to further feedback, revision, and balancing.


Core Abilities


1 AP, class level 1: Confidence: Passive: +1% Dodge, +1 Reflex Save, and +1 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor per Swashbuckler Core Ability you have.
5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)

Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
Kukri, Rapier: +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
Handaxe: +2 Critical Threat Range
Light Pick: +1 Critical Threat Range


10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you have an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.


Tier One


On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
Blow By Blow (multiselector)

Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals (+1/+2/+3)d6 extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by (100/200/300). This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.


Insults (multiselector)

Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)


Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, Haggle, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.


Tier Two


En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make two attacks with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs 10 Spell Points to activate.
Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
Fast Movement: You gain +1% Bardic Music bonus to movement for every Bard level you possess.
Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
Action Boost Multiselector

Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.



Tier Three


Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
Swashbuckling Style (Multiselector)

Dashing Scoundrel: Passive: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Attack Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
Skirmisher: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge, and you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats.
Arcane Marauder: Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training (or the Spellsinger enhancement equivalent).
Cannoneer: (Requires Runearm Proficiency feat): Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities).


Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits. This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
Different Tack (Multiselector, Requires Single Weapon Fighting feat)

Swift Strikes: You get Dexterity to Damage with weapon attacks while Single Weapon Fighting.
Two Steps Ahead: You get Intelligence to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.


CHA/DEX


Tier Four


On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)
Swashbuckling Style II (Multiselector)

Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, knock down affected enemy for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
Loud & Clear:Passive: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +20 Sonic Spell Power.
Tune Arm/Music Box: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage. This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.


Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
CHA/DEX


Tier Five


Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Attack Damage while the Precision feat is active.
Second Skin: While Swashbuckling, +3/6/12 to your Reflex Saves and +2/4/6 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor.
Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully crit.


I like it although it would be cool if u could swash buckle with a light offhand weapon such as a dagger or hand ax arrrrrr like in all the pirate movies and the Apple2 game swashbuckler.

[Cardtrick]

Sorry for my bad English. I was thinking that last feat gives that 7% bonus to douplestrike. And when I now think it, yes that 10% unique bonus to attack speed would maybe be too powerful. Try to imagine 15bard/3druid/2fighter(mad build) with all SWF feats and Fatal Harrier stacked to cap running with +55% attack speed. And while under attack speed boost he/she would have 85% bonus to attack speed. It would definitely look cool but it would maybe be too powerful.




P.S Unbongwah surely knows what he is talking about and IMO his suggestions are very good.

It wasn't bad english, it was just my mistake.

That 85% increase to attack speed sounds crazy at first, but when you think about it, it's really not. The TWF feats essentially give that same level of increase by doing offhand strikes on nearly every attack.

I may be totally off-base on how those attack speed boosts stack up against TWF. Even a 45% attack speed boost might be too little. I might try to modify my spreadsheet to incorporate TWF so I can get a better understanding, but it's quite a lot more complicated than just comparing SWF to THF.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Edit: nevermind

[Cardtrick]

Do you think that adding three points of damage is worth three feats?

It is much more than three points of damage, because the points get added before the W multiplier (which in turn is added before any critical multipliers).

On a 4.5W Thunderforged weapon, it's 4.5 * 3 = 13.5 points of damage (again, before critical multipliers). Still much less than what you get from TWF or THF, but better than 3 points of damage.




That said, the fact that this is continually and repeatedly confusing people is probably yet another argument against these feats as they currently stand.

[Cardtrick]

I'm confused by what you're saying here, Cardtrick.

TWF essentially gives an effective +20% attack speed (you get 20% more attacks with TWF than you get with a single weapon).
Holybird's proposed SWF feat would give 10% attack speed + 7% doublestrike (that caps at 100%, so it won't be any benefit to some characters).

Now, the TWF isn't quite a 20% attack speed boost because you only get 0.5% off-hand strength bonus, but eveything else you get at the full 100% of the main hand's damage.

How would Holybird's suggestion be "considerably better than TWF"?

Yeah . . . I was very wrong on that. I don't know what I was thinking. I realized it when I was starting to reply to Holybird's second post; I'll go back and edit the post you quoted.

Like I said, I don't have any numbers or a spreadsheet going for TWF yet -- I was concentrating on THF at first since it was easier, and just trusting my general impression that THF and TWF are currently pretty well balanced.

[droid327]

30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.



Still don't see why anyone, especially a melee Bard, would want to take those last 2 Bard levels instead of just splashing 2 Rogue for the Evasion, a slew of complementary melee enhancements in Assassin, sneak die, trapping, etc. etc. Plus getting access to Evasion before L20.

The rest of the capstone doesn't make it worthwhile - +3 dam, +2 to-hit, 1% Doublestrike, essentially. I could get +2 Sneak die and +1d8 poison on hit plus a spammable +3[W] attack with Rogue. Not like Spellsinger or Warchanter has anything better to spend AP on for a melee Bard instead.

[jakeelala]

i think there is some truth to the idea that this is purposefully weak, because they are planning, as we know, "re-balancing" aka Nerf the best stuff from outer-space so it's less than or equal to this PrE.

But I suppose that's off-topic

[jakeelala]

Still don't see why anyone, especially a melee Bard, would want to take those last 2 Bard levels instead of just splashing 2 Rogue for the Evasion, a slew of complementary melee enhancements in Assassin, sneak die, trapping, etc. etc. Plus getting access to Evasion before L20.

The rest of the capstone doesn't make it worthwhile - +3 dam, +2 to-hit, 1% Doublestrike, essentially. I could get +2 Sneak die and +1d8 poison on hit plus a spammable +3[W] attack with Rogue. Not like Spellsinger or Warchanter has anything better to spend AP on for a melee Bard instead.

Unless they "re-balance" evasion somehow...

[geoffhanna]

Here is a better set of SWF feats. As an example. Because I don't want to be the guy who is against everything but provides no constructive ideas.

All require a finesse weapon in main hand and nothing in offhand.



SWF: +1 Style bonus to weapon enchantment. +3 Style bonus to Dodge.
Improved SWF : +1 Style bonus to weapon enchantment. DEX to damage.
Greater SWF: +1 Style bonus to weapon enchantment. +3 Style bonus to Dodge.
Perfect SWF: +1 Style bonus to weapon enchantment. DEX AND CHA to damage.


This is good enough that I would take it on some of my characters, but only some, not all. Which I think indicates balance.

But then of course I am in favor of my own idea. :)

[Cardtrick]

Still don't see why anyone, especially a melee Bard, would want to take those last 2 Bard levels instead of just splashing 2 Rogue for the Evasion, a slew of complementary melee enhancements in Assassin, sneak die, trapping, etc. etc. Plus getting access to Evasion before L20.

The rest of the capstone doesn't make it worthwhile - +3 dam, +2 to-hit, 1% Doublestrike, essentially. I could get +2 Sneak die and +1d8 poison on hit plus a spammable +3[W] attack with Rogue. Not like Spellsinger or Warchanter has anything better to spend AP on for a melee Bard instead.

You do also get the +2 CHA for an additional point of Perform and Enchant DC and the +2 DEX for an extra point of reflex save. And there are the normal benefits of going with 20 bard levels versus 18: an extra spell, more SP, and an extra +1 attack and damage to yourself and all party members from the improved Inspire Courage.

I do value all of that together more than +2 Sneak die and the other benefits you mentioned. Although getting haste boost and trap skills as well from rogue levels makes it tougher.

The real competitor in my mind is still the classic 16 bard / 2 fighter / 2 rogue. The extra 2 feats and haste boost from fighter and trap skills from rogue are hard to pass up. This class is going to be insanely feat-starved if we have to take 3 SWF feats.

[Cardtrick]

Here is a better set of SWF feats. As an example. Because I don't want to be the guy who is against everything but provides no constructive ideas.

All require a finesse weapon in main hand and nothing in offhand.



SWF: +1 Style bonus to weapon enchantment. +3 Style bonus to Dodge.
Improved SWF : +1 Style bonus to weapon enchantment. DEX to damage.
Greater SWF: +1 Style bonus to weapon enchantment. +3 Style bonus to Dodge.
Perfect SWF: +1 Style bonus to weapon enchantment. DEX AND CHA to damage.


This is good enough that I would take it on some of my characters, but only some, not all. Which I think indicates balance.

But then of course I am in favor of my own idea. :)

This is even worse than the original proposal. Actually by a good margin.

(Note that dex and cha to damage are available from the enhancement tree.)

[geoffhanna]

.... That said, the fact that this is continually and repeatedly confusing people is probably yet another argument against these feats as they currently stand.

I'm not confused. It is 3 points if damage. Granted it is base damage, but still.

[Tinco]

That 85% increase to attack speed sounds crazy at first, but when you think about it, it's really not. The TWF feats essentially give that same level of increase by doing offhand strikes on nearly every attack.



I think you're going too far with that. We still have to keep in mind that the power of this PrE and the Feats will exist together. And since this PrE has a lot more power baked in than most (if not all other) PrEs we have to look at them together. Where a lot of confusion comes from and where I think the devs are not on the same page as most thread participants here is the basis of the whole fighting style.

I'd really like to have some questions answered regarding SWF:

1. Do you consider SWF a fighting style on equal terms with TWF/THF?
2. Expanding on that, do you see SWF a 'viable' alternative for fighters/rogues that don't use the Swashbuckler PrE?
3. Do you plan to revisit some other PrEs to incorporate some SWF support?

If you can answer these questions with 'Yes', the balance of power between the Swashbuckler and the Feats is wrong in my opinion. You need to shift some power from the PrE into the feats to make the fighting style attractive.

If you consider the SWF feats just build sugar for feat-heavy bard/fighter multiclasses, the balance direction might work out. Even then there are some further questions:

4. What is the opportunity cost in terms of damage for the Swashbuckler-offhand-shenanigans compared to TWF/THF? What should it be?
5. Have you ever considered making Swashbuckler a 'martial-cultural PrE'(*), similar to Arcane Archer for Elves because there are certainly ties with fighter/rogue/artificer as well as the bard? (mind you, Swashbuckler is a base class in DnD based around dexterity, intelligence and charisma)

(*) You qualify by typing YARRR! in general chat of course.

I'd certainly feel better if I knew the basic design decisions behind the whole SWF/Swashbuckler idea.

[Caprice]

This is even worse than the original proposal. Actually by a good margin.
The +4 additional enhancement bonus also provides an additional +12 universal spellpower if it is a caster weapon/slotted with an appropriate augment. That's somewhat interesting for a Swashbuckler, at least, what with the sonic damage procs and cure spells.

[Cardtrick]

I'm not confused. It is 3 points if damage. Granted it is base damage, but still.

No. Base damage is like the bonus you get from "Deadly" or "Weapon Specialization" or various other things. It adds directly to the weapon's damage and will be multiplied by critical hits.

What they have proposed is an entirely new thing that applies before the W modifier. It is multiplied before becoming base damage.

Your suggestion of +1 to weapon enhancement really is +1 to base damage. Their proposed addition of 2 die sides is +4.5 to base damage on a thunderforged weapon.

[Holybird]

It wasn't bad english, it was just my mistake.

That 85% increase to attack speed sounds crazy at first, but when you think about it, it's really not. The TWF feats essentially give that same level of increase by doing offhand strikes on nearly every attack.

I may be totally off-base on how those attack speed boosts stack up against TWF. Even a 45% attack speed boost might be too little. I might try to modify my spreadsheet to incorporate TWF so I can get a better understanding, but it's quite a lot more complicated than just comparing SWF to THF.

Pretty good points. The problem is way more complicated than I first thought. Its pretty hard to achieve same DPS with one weapon when someone who is using two weapons gets two hits per one animation. Second suggestion:

Single Weapon fighting:
-+10% unique bonus to attack speed
-+5% douple strike
-+2% to dodge and dodge cap while fighting with one weapon
prerequisities: +1 BAB



ISWF:

-+10% unique bonus to attack speed
-+5%douple strike
-+3% to dodge and dodge cap while fighting with one weapon
prerequisities: +6BAB


GSWF:
-+15% unique bonus to attack speed
-+6% douple strike
-4% to dodge and dodge cap
- While single weapon fighting and you dodge attack you have 50% change to make counterattack.
-Improves your critical threat range by +1 and multiplier by +1
prerequisities: +11BAB

(all dodge bonuses should stack with dodge feat)

Would these be any good?(not going to do math now)

[Caprice]

2. Expanding on that, do you see SWF a 'viable' alternative for fighters/rogues that don't use the Swashbuckler PrE?
3. Do you plan to revisit some other PrEs to incorporate some SWF support?
3a. Since the Fighter class is still missing its 3rd PrE tree, do you have plans to add a SWF-style tree as that 3rd?

[Cardtrick]

The +4 additional enhancement bonus also provides an additional +12 universal spellpower if it is a caster weapon/slotted with an appropriate augment. That's somewhat interesting for a Swashbuckler, at least, what with the sonic damage procs and cure spells.

It is dramatically lower melee DPS than what the developers suggest, and we're talking about the feats here, not the enhancement tree.

Also, it's a requirement of 4 feats. A requirement of 3 is probably already too much.

Who in their right mind would choose to take a feat that adds +1 to base damage and +3 to spellpower? Never mind do it 4 times?

[geoffhanna]

This is even worse than the original proposal. Actually by a good margin.

(Note that dex and cha to damage are available from the enhancement tree.)

Why is this worse? Weapon enhancement is also base damage, yes? Except that it additionally improves attack and spellpower ?

Plus, Dodge.

And you are conflating SWF and Swashbuckling too. If SWF is going to be competitive, it needs to appeal to non-Swashbuckling.

But I am not going to continue defending my example, it was supposed to be an example rather than definitive, and maybe I am wrong.

Nothing new about that.

I am pretty certain that I am not wrong about the importance of making SWF stand alone as a desirable melee style if we are going to have it at all.

[Scrabbler]

I'd certainly feel better if I knew the basic design decisions behind the whole SWF/Swashbuckler idea.
Yes, it's super-hard to give good feedback without knowing roughly what they're trying to do. Is SWF supposed to be almost as good as TWF, or is it supposed to be pretty weak?

A lot of people are offering elaborate suggestions on how to bring SWF up close to TWF power, but we don't even know if the devs want to aim in that direction.

[ComicRelief]

*Ofc +2 would be better (stronger) than +2 sides. How much? Twice as much...*snip*

While you are technically correct (which is, of course, the best kind of correctness), saying that it is “twice” as strong is also somewhat misleading; it provides 1 point better “average” damage. And quite frankly, I think it should. But if you think it’s too OP, then fine – adjust the bonuses; have +2 for SWF but only +1 for ISWF and GSWF. Also, consider:

1) Use of SWF requires that you keep the off-hand completely empty – no shield, no buckler (except as allows by ‘swashbuckling’), no rune-arm – nothing. You therefore lose a slot to help with any type of attack, defense, stat, skill, spell bonus, etc. Something should be done to compensate for this loss to make taking SWF ‘attractive’.

2) The idea that a fighting style can somehow increase the damage di(c)e of a weapon is illogical. As things currently are, a fighter – who is logically trained in the use of weapons – and a wizard (who is not) can both use a mundane dagger and that dagger with do 1d4 base damage. Yet somehow someone with SWF using the same exact dagger somehow gets 1d6 damage?

3) Adding “sides” to the damage di(c)e of weapons is in general (if not in practice) harder to program than adding a static “bonus”. This is (I’m guessing) the reason they excluding the few “special” weapons that use multiple-dice as their base damage from being capable of using the SWF feat. Changing 2(1d(4+0)) to 2(1d(4+2)) is part of the technical/balancing issues mentions (again – I’m guessing, but it would be logical from a programming standpoint). I mean, OK, I suppose you could try and make it (1d4)+(1d6) base dice, but that requires custom code and just looks silly. A weapon that uses two different die to calculate damage???

4) It is easier to tweak the values of a static “bonus” than it is to tweak the value of dice “sides”. Is +2 too much? Fine – change it to +1.5. Is “+2 sides” too much? Then make it…um…”+1.5 sides”?? How do you had “half a side” to a die? Well, then let’s just make it “+1 side”, which turns a 1d4 into a 1d5 – very non-standard; yes, it’s doable in programming, but it would be considered by many (including me) to be a “sloppy” practice, at best. Consistency is one of the (many) keys when it comes to programming.

Now, let’s consider my proposed change:

1) The static, stacking, damage bonus would help compensate for the lack of item/bonuses in the empty off-hand, making SWF a bit more attractive to consider and use.

2) It is more logical that someone trained in the SWF fighting style could get just a little more damage out of the weapon – increasing the minimum amount of damage made, without changing the very nature of the weapon. I.e. a dagger still has a base 1d4, but with SWF it gives 3-6 points of damage (1d4+2). Same BASIC CONCEPT of adding “2 sides”, but providing a slightly higher average damage that can more easily be adjusted than adjusting the number of “sides”.

3) You should now be able to include ALL those “special” weapons with multiple-dice base damage WITHOUT custom code or fear of too much un-balanced gameplay. A 2(1d4) weapon becomes 2(1d4) +2 [yielding 4-10 damage, instead of the “2-12” it would have by changing the base dice – much better balance].

4) Easier to tweak a static bonus. But this has already been covered.

So, yeah, using a “static bonus” is “better” than adding sides to di(c)e. But it’s also more logical.

As far as I’m concerned, anyway.
;)

[Cardtrick]

Why is this worse? Weapon enhancement is also base damage, yes? Except that it additionally improves attack?

As I have replied to you in 2 previous posts, their proposed version doesn't add directly to base damage. It is multiplied by a large factor (the [W] multiplier) before being added to the base.


And you are conflating SWF and Swashbuckling too. If SWF is going to be competitive, it needs to appeal to non-Swashbuckling.

I think I am conflating them much less than you are. I put together a fairly complicated model actually showing the damage done per swing with the new feats with an example character, completely ignoring any enhancement.

Your proposed feats only have any value for a character who wants to use a single weapon and CHA or DEX to damage. Who would want that but a swashbuckler bard? I think that's a matter of you tying them to the enhancement tree, rather than trying to make them useful in their own right. This is especially problematic because most of the builds you can imagine potentially wanting this (swashbuckler bard, assassin rogue, melee artificer, etc.) already have some means of getting a non-strength stat applied to damage.

I think the SWF feats need to be balanced completely outside the context of a bard, so I don't think CHA/DEX to damage should be part of the equation.


I am pretty certain that I am not wrong about the importance of making SWF stand alone as a desirable melee style if we are going to have it at all.

I agree with this entirely, but I just disagree that your suggested feats are the right way to accomplish this goal.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Maybe "Swashbucklers" could get an automatic boost to balance/dodge/evasion when on a ship or water.
After all "they" have sea legs! ;)

[Cardtrick]

Would these be any good?(not going to do math now)

They seem good to me, at least at first glance. I would have to do a lot more calculation to get a better sense, though.

I do plan to try to put together a model in Excel that works for SWF, THF, and TWF and supports tweaking various things like doublestrike, attack speed, straight damage boosts, etc. I don't know when I'll have the time, though.

[Scrabbler]

So, yeah, using a “static bonus” is “better” than adding sides to di(c)e. But it’s also more logical.
But that consideration shouldn't really matter, because nothing similar to adding a damage bonus is a good way to build a SWF feat.

The competing feats are TWF and THF, and they don't add something; they multiply it. TWF gives a percentage more attacks, which eventually works out close to multiplying your damage by 1.8x. THF is more complicated, as it both multiplies your glance damage by 2.5x, and increases glance rate 1.5x. But any of those things produce more total damage as you increase your Strength mod, Inspire Courage bonus, and many other bonuses. Because of multiplication, the fighting styles scale with your combat power.

The proposed SWF bonus does not scale with your combat damage, meaning that the feat will either be too strong for low-level characters with poor gear, or too weak for high level people with great gear. (It does scale with the W number of your weapon, but that's ignoring too much else of where players' damage comes from)

[Caprice]

It is dramatically lower melee DPS than what the developers suggest, and we're talking about the feats here, not the enhancement tree.

Also, it's a requirement of 4 feats. A requirement of 3 is probably already too much.

Who in their right mind would choose to take a feat that adds +1 to base damage and +3 to spellpower?
I am not arguing in favor of the specific feats as proposed by geoffhanna. I was trying to point out that it does have a secondary benefit for some builds that the presented SWF feats do not have and that none of the doublestrike/attack speed/armor piercing/etc. ideas provide either. As long as we are brainstorming possibilities, I'd at least like to see all the benefits laid out. In fact what I said is actually a further argument against the idea, since it would mean that casters are potentially gaining more from a melee feat than melees are, which seems inappropriate.

And yes, the enhancement bonus idea is a straight melee DPS loss even against the Turbine SWF offering. But mimicking your question: who in their right mind would take the feats we've been offered here, either?

[geoffhanna]

... Lots of perfectly fine points ... but ...

I don't want to debate you, my bad for responding. Partly because I can't respond as fast on my phone and am always a full reply behind. Partly because I am probably wrong. Again. As I mentioned already, I am wrong a lot. I'm used to it.

Mainly though, I don't care very much because I am not in this thread for you. I am here to learn more from Vargouille and Steelstar.

Hopefully they will see that most of us are asking similar questions (why sides? Why so weak? What are the intended goals? ) and respond to that rather than to all the noise.

[Cardtrick]

And yes, the enhancement bonus idea is a straight melee DPS loss even against the Turbine SWF offering. But mimicking your question: who in their right mind would take the feats we've been offered here, either?

Oh, no one.

But when people propose things that are straight-up worse, I think we need to make it very clear that most of us don't consider them improvements. Otherwise the whole thread dissolves into nothing but a bunch of conflicting opinions of wildly different power levels, and all the developers get out of it is "well, the players all seem to disagree."

[Cardtrick]

I don't want to debate you, my bad for responding.

I'm sorry, my responses to you were pretty aggressive for really no good reason.

I do disagree very strongly with your suggested feats, but that's no excuse for me to be rude to you.


Mainly though, I don't care very much because I am not in this thread for you. I am here to learn more from Vargouille and Steelstar.

I started out the thread that way, but at this point I would say I'm in this thread more to try to influence Vargouille and Steelstar than to learn from them.

I do definitely wish that we knew more about their goals here, but mostly only so that it could inform my suggestions.

[Vargouille]

Why are your responses mainly addressing Swashbuckling even though most of the feedback is about SWF?

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

[Scrabbler]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage
Ok, well that's a multiplicative bonus alright. It would be very overpowered if it's allowed to work with GTHF at the same time (via Bastard)... even if it's not, it'll be interesting to see how a Barbarian with GSWF khopesh stacks up to one using GTHF greataxe or falchion.


different new doublestrike, triplestrike
Have you looked at getting Doublestrike to respect numbers above 100%? So that 115% Doublestrike means you get either 2 or 3 attacks, depending on luck? It's already possible for players to briefly exceed 100%.

[Cardtrick]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage

That's very strong. I don't think it's too strong, necessarily, but it's certainly stronger than I expected you to go.

Even given the lower base damage of most single hand weapons compared to two-handed weapons and the reduced damage from Power Attack, this is almost certainly going to be better damage against single targets than THF. It will also scale extremely highly with future improvements to gear.

If you go this route, characters focused on EE and especially on EE bosses are going to be very strongly incentivized to use this tree rather than THF or TWF.

In my table, I used a damage stat of 60, which is quite high for a CHA or DEX build. But a high-end strength-based melee, taking advantage of Divine Might and Power Surge and Primal Scream and various other strength-only bonuses, can get more like 100. The difference between THF's 150% modifier and SWF's 200% modifier could then be 20+ points of base damage, which would all be multiplied by crits. And then you attack 30% faster on top of that. There's no way glancing blows come close to reaching that against a single target.

[Coyopa]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

Thank you for sharing this. It gives me hope that we will end up with something pretty good overall. So, I just wanted to say "thanks" since I am usually pretty hard on you guys.

[Nascoe]

It should be simple to just add a rule to the SWF feat text saying that Bastard and Waraxe aren't eligible for the feat benefits, since they're too big or something ("Hand And A Half"). Not doing that will probably mean that if the SWF line is buffed, Dwarf Fighters with GSWF + GTHF using Waraxe will be too good compared to ones using Greataxe.

If that makes you feel bad for the Bastard items, you could follow it up with a separate rule that users of Bastard and Waraxe weapons who have their offhand empty will receive +0.5 str mod damage and 2x Power Attack bonus. That happens to be an exact rule from the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook...

Honestly, I think that Turbine shouldn't go out of their way to think of a way to block basters sw and DAxes from SWF. A BS would mean taking 7 feats just for this, meaning completely ignoring anything else, or leaving only little for other critical things like power attack and cleave out. If anyone would feel compelled to train their complete life dedicating themselves to learn how to master the DAxe/BS like that (and taking all their feats just for this would be exactly that), why not let them? It would be the perfect flavour build but still far from FotM kind of builds and not OP at all.

[Caprice]

Oh, no one.

But when people propose things that are straight-up worse, I think we need to make it very clear that most of us don't consider them improvements. Otherwise the whole thread dissolves into nothing but a bunch of conflicting opinions of wildly different power levels, and all the developers get out of it is "well, the players all seem to disagree."
I agree with that principle and don't take it personally. From previous comments it sounds like the devs do not have a concrete target in mind as of yet and are letting us debate the pros and cons of different options so that they can make a more informed decision, so what you are doing is helpful in that. It's a bit :tinfoil: of me but I am suspicious that they deliberately low-balled the feats they proposed to encourage us to debate more aggressively.

But for instance if someone came back and said "if +1 isn't enough, what about a +5 enhancement bonus per feat?", since that is just barely better than the offered SWF feats. People might say "hey, that's a slight improvement over Turbine's!". But in reality it would be handing out +45 spellpower on top of the melee DPS gain, which has implications for caster balance and self-healing effectiveness on melees which should be considered.

[Holybird]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Looks pretty nice. As I suggested before would like some douplestrike and dodge summed in to those feats. Ability Score to damage is very nice addition indeed. If you could put +1 crit range and multiplier to last feat it would be awesome.

[Tinco]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Now, that's something that might even change the bigger picture. I honestly think this may be too strong because it's essentially THF on some forbidden substance but the direction is way more beautiful than before. It actually tells me that you want SWF to be a fighting style that can hold his own outside of the SB, thanks.

And because I can't be all positive: Be careful with the STR / other ability balance. I highly recommend changing divine might to a flat dmg bonus again or you might see some unwanted side-effects (Surge/DM builds going crazy with 1h-Khopesh/Scimi/Rapier)

[BigErkyKid]

COMPUTATIONS SWF and 1 handed weapon VS 1 handed without feats

That was pretty helpful, thanks! So to sum it up, this feats, all together, add 16.5% damage to a person using a SW. Now obviously more damage is good, but the immediate competitor for the vast majority of SW fighters is the THF line together with bswords and dwarxes. This is for people already using swords and shields, not for the new bards line.

I don't dare ask you for that, Cardtrick, but let me list here the competing feats as a reference

THF: Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by 10% (from a base of 20% normal weapon damage).

ITFH: Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by an additional 10% for a total of 40%.

GTHF: The Greater Two Handed Fighting feat adds a glancing blow to your attack sequence, and increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by an additional 10% for a total of 50%.

1. Will a rapier and buckler + SWF feats ever compete with a bsword or dwarxe with THF?
1.1. How about rapider + SWF in new bard line vs traditional sword and board?


SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage



I have to say I like these ideas a lot more. It seems far more coherent with what I would expect the effect to be in a real fight...for all I know about martial arts. But truth is, I don't understand something here.

Cardtrick, a 10% increase in speed, isn't it just a 10% flat increase in damage? Maybe I am just tired and I should go to sleep. But the way I read it, this (which substitutes the previous proposal they had), means that everything else equal (ceteris paribus :O ), a SWF is hitting 1.1 times for every 1 time of say a THF. So basically, taken current damage of a guy with a single weapon, scale it up to 1.1.

So if you found that the initial total damage added by their previous feat proposal was 16%, they are giving us 10% already from a single feat. And then, it just gets better :).

I like it a lot, I am eagerly waiting for another Cardtrick made table with this :P.

PS - I do not think this is OP at all. In some other computations in another thread we found a single dwarxe dealing 57% of the damage of a TWF dwarxes. Now this is bad even for a suboptimal weapon like dwarxes for dual yielding...

[maddmatt70]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

Yes, this is at least gives us some hope. I have kind of given up on this game, but I like playing Bards so much that I would consider coming back if you threw bards a bone. These feats coupled with swashbuckler gives bards a chance anyway. One question about attack speed although thematically very nice is how well the servers can handle swing speed - would this increase lag a bunch or something. At one time we were led to believe that attack speed increased lag.

[bbqzor]

Some clarifications, answers, thoughts, and disappointments:
Good to hear ty.


We're not about to hand out runearm proficiency in a Bard enhancement tree. Runearms and Orbs have some support for cross class and different build strategies so they can hopefully add to the number of viable builds. You are not supposed to be able to replace 'being an Artificer' with a few Action Points.
Good, this is better for many reasons.



Bastard Swords are not for Swashbuckling. These are weapons that have plenty of support already. We realize some players would like to take current characters and just start Swasbuckling, but we'd much rather make some other builds options (more) viable. Put another way, we'd rather shore up builds that are lacking than keep pushing the stronger builds, and we're pretty sure most players support this.
Related: The stance needs to allow wands/scrolls so swashbuckling doesnt un-swash when youre using umd. Will this be addressed / has it been addressed? Thanks.



This is certainly up for discussion. We'd have to figure out what it would mean to 'not allow it'. We could just put anti-requisites on THF, TWF, and SWF (which kills a few builds that could theoretically want to switch between them), or we could turn them into exclusive stances, or maybe something else. We'd have to spend some time investigating the possibilities.
Again yes and no. Right now its possible to take 2wf feats and shield feats on a fighter tank who wants to swap from dps to s/b mode. This is no different, except that as written the feats can help each other as well (as in, neither is all or nothing like the 2wf to s/b example, but its the same number of feats either way). As I mentioned in another post, allowing 6 feats to all work towards one thing is probably too many... simply because to have cumulative value the combo would likely be too good, and in such an event it punishes anyone with few feats (ie, virtually all non-fighters) because such a cost is simply too great to bear given the number of "necessary" feats most builds entail already.

Or, in other words, a 6 feat combo is too many feats to expect anywhere but fighters, as a result its effectively an option only fighters will utilize which would have to be crazy good to be worth 6 feats, and as a result we probably dont need crazy good combos only fighters can use in the game. So yes, making them independently useful as three parallel 3 feat chains for different styles is probably wisest, and is certainly easiest to balance.


We're intentionally focusing on the main (heroic) feats right now and trying not to overly distract the conversation, but we are already considering what an Epic Single Weapon Fighting feat might look like.
Good. Hopefully at some point there will be an "epic feat / destiny feat" pass which can adjust a few things, and perhaps add this at the same time.


There are definitely some good design reasons for this, and we're still considering this as a possibility (as previously mentioned).
Yes and no... it needs something for dps. The state of the game is such that dps is still the go-to, and almost no amount of utility will overcome that. It may not need to exactly match the other levels, but it does need to at least compete in the same race so to speak (like, it needs to at least run fast enough to belong in the race, vs like if I went and ran in the race and totally failed, lol... even if ultimately it falls behind and wont win, at least it can compete). Beyond that point yes, I think something different and useful is a better direction as well.


This is completely correct. Being able to wear an item that increases in power as you level is a significant boost.
Guess I should just throw in the towel on this one. Its obviously an option which is not meant to be used with melee at all, perhaps instead as thrown weapon support. At which it isnt the worst of options. Without the effects on glances being added, its just not going to weigh against the other melee choices anyhow. I guess yay for throwers?


We're pretty sure some bards are going to be happy to have more songs. Some of these players might be Spellsingers or Warchanters, of course.
In the early levels perhaps yes, and thats fine since its a T1 enhancement. Early on you dont have access to Anthem, and dont have enough AP to spread out into other trees to grab the similar enhancement options. By Epic, I suspect most people will adjust their trees to exclude this one, and thats okay. It has a point somewhere along the way and some enhancements will be like that. If youre expecting this to see use at epic, Id actually rather like to know why. It might lead to feedback in other areas.


We're quite happy asking for at least three bard levels for these three abilities, and to not front-load this key feature, instead putting the scaling ability earlier in the tree.
Reasonable, I was happy with the positions of those.


Great post, some good thoughts.
Ive tried to hold off with anything specific about SWF but here is some baseline math to help as well, I suppose. I kind of figured you guys would have these values but you never know.

Attacks per minute (with 15% haste, ie blinding speed) run about as follows: 110 for handwraps, 102 for 1HD, 100 for fast 2HD, 97.5 for slow 2HD.
That means that with Greater Two Weapon fighting included its something like: 198 for wraps, 183 for 2WF.
You can also factor in Greater Two Handed fighting including glancing blows, something like: 100 + 75 glances for fast 2HD, 97.5 + 73 glances for slow 2HD.
Then you can factor in 25% doublestrike (chosen because its relatively easy to reach as a general number, ~8% from an item, ~8% from class/destiny/buffs/feats, ~9% from epic past lives).

That lands you at the following list of aggregate speeds:
247 attacks/min for wraps
228 attacks/min for 2wf
127 attacks/min for 1hd (with empty hand)
127 attacks/min plus 95 glances for 1hd (with shield and 2hd feats)
125 attacks/min plus 93 glances for fast 2hd
121 attacks/min plus 91 glances for slow 2hd

You can write off 2wf wraps, this isnt something for monks and wraps have their own set of limitations. You could perhaps even write off 2wf in general. It takes acquiring two items which can be a significant investment, and short of making SWF hit almost twice as hard (or fast) it simply wont make up that kind of ground... and even if it did, then whats the actual difference then between the two (other than swf would be better since it takes half the items). Its important to understand it should be in the same ballpark, but it wont reach those values.

Where it really needs to compare is 2hd fighting. The attack rates are almost the same, but its out the glances and the two handed patk/str/etc mods. Even comparing to s/b, its out the glances along with all the shield feats (8% doublestrike, 5-15 prr, perhaps energy deflection, and potentially shield bash) along with the offhand item itself and whatever mods it has. And like SWF, 2hd requires only one weapon and no offhand, as far as effort/effect relating to itemization.

So what should it definitely do? It should definitely have some doublestrike... it makes no sense that s/b is faster than a 1hd/empty hand duelist. It should definitely have +dmg of some sort to parallel 2hd and compete with 2wf. It should definitely do something else which makes it unique compared to the other two, but also which is useful to a wide variety of duelist style builds. Also it needs to, in some fashion, account for the fact you are not only spending 3 feats, but are also giving up an offhand item... and thats potentially huge.

What should it not do? Focus only on doublestrike trying to be 2wf... its not, and doublestike can cap out. It should not add something as generic as tactics, plenty of duelist style builds will not have the str or feats to utilize that. It should not add tons of prr or something, shield should be the defensive go-to, but some measure of defense is probably necessary given both s/b and 2wf have such options (two weapon defense etc). It should not be a feat tax, in any sense... no build should wind up needing to spend more feats now than it would otherwise using an existing style.

Based on that, perhaps: SWF, 3 feats, reg/improved/greater, +10% doublestrike, +1 die size, +3 seeker, +1% dodge, +3 AC, +1 Ref per tier. Which results in:
158 attacks/min (still a hair on the slow side, but I think more than 10/tier doublestrike is overkill)
+3 die size (which is +3 dmg/hit in heroic, +6 dmg/hit at epic, and +12 dmg/hit on a thunderholm weapon... or roughly the same as 1-2hd power attack weapon pending)
+9 seeker (which, assuming imp crit rapier with x3, just as a general "maxed out" thing, is about 5 dmg per hit)
+3% dodge (which, per feat, is half as much as other secondary dodge feats like mobility or spring attack offer, and in total is "another" dodge feat)
+9 ac (similar to other 2wf defense options in terms of parrying to avoid hits, but not mitigate them as the prr portions would)
+3 ref (having an empty hand makes it a lot easier to balance, dodge, roll, or whatever, and fits with a finesse style)

Thats an option which has equal power attack support (as 1hd early on, growing into 2hd at cap), equal str (x1.5 or 1+0.5) support via seeker (for str up to 30, which is probably fair for this style of feats, if youre maxing str you should do another route), equal defense (to other 2wf choices, trading prr for dodge which makes more sense thematically).

DPS wise... Its about 2/3rds the dps of a 2wf option, no surprise there. 2wf is, and probably will remain, the top single target dps option (barring certain situations like LD). But it is about 90% of the 2hd dps option, but also grants dodge and ac, as well as functioning without breaking cc (no glances), and with finesse weapons (meaning its open to non max-str builds). Its likely more dps than s/b, but in some cases may be about equal... it really depends on the s/b build (many s/b builds are tanks, optimizing for defense not dps, so weigh that how you will).

In critique of it... it relies almost too heavily on doublestrike, which can cap out (and in this kind of build might... a swashbuckler hitting action boost could pass 100%, not by much but it means some portion of the feats or the enhancements is being lost, less than ideal). It also adds dodge, which is far more easily capped out, and AC, which many builds (especially non s/b light weapon users, like you know, almost anyone wanting to take SWF) cannot make good use of as AC takes an entirely different investment strategy to pay off (partly why I added +ref, its a way to offer some defense support without kind of really doing it).

Then theres the other issues... like that still doesnt account for the lost item slot. Nor does it offer anything unique. I might add something like 10% chance per tier to proc an offhand "punch", similar to shield bash. Such a "punch" could daze a mob for 1s (no save, no dmg delt), effectively making it a form of interrupt without being true cc (the next hit will automatically break it, wont cause helpless, etc). While 30% for a daze may seem excessively high, its only enough to trigger every 1.3 seconds, and then daze will probably only last 0.35 seconds because the next attack you make will land far before the 1s duration... or in other words, daze a single mob about 25% of the combat duration when solo, albeit rapidly enough to mess with casters or running archers or what not. Since this chain offers *ZERO* ways to deal with groups of mobs (no glances, no cleaves, no nothing), and that is virtually critical in todays DDO, being able to be really good at feinting, smacking, confusing, and otherwise dancing around a single mob in a 1v1 duel is about as helpful and thematic an idea as I can conceive. And being able to kind of "stop one caster" is something that will remain helpful even in groups, even in ee.

So there you go, my hat in the ring. I will end by saying that even if it did what I propose here, I have virtually no character other than a swashbuckler I would consider using it on. I would rather simply do more dmg using the other feat chains in all cases, and since I already have gotten the items on people etc, this wouldnt be something Id change over to. The only thing I could think of is a s/b tank, instead of doing 2hd+shield or 2wf+shield doing this+shield, taking the shield off for "dps mode", and freeing up from being stuck with bsword/daxe in the process (which would hurt the s/b side of things, but probably be better when not tanking). And, as that example illustrates, thats a stretch. But if I was making a new guy or starting the game from scratch, its a nice option especially since its easier to build for. In the end though, dps is still king... so aiming above what is presented here (in terms of more dps, or more effects, or more of whatever) would not go amiss.

Three feats, each tier does:
+10% doublestrike, +1 die size, +3 seeker, +1% dodge, +3 AC, +1 Ref, 10% chance offhand 1s daze
so x3 that for the whole line.

Hopefully helpful. Cheers.

[Caprice]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage
IIUC, and assuming the 15% attack speed bonus from Haste is a given, and increase that by 30% more, that's a 54.5% DPS increase ( = (1-.15)/(1-.15-.3) = 1.5454545... ). Is that how attack speed stacks or is multiplicative?

[Cardtrick]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage

If you keep the improvements to ability score damage . . . which I do think are very interesting . . . then I think you need to tone down the attack speed. It feels weird now arguing that this is too powerful after multiple pages going the other direction, but I'm pretty sure this is nuts.

I've been thinking about this a bit, and there are some incredibly broken builds that these feats would open up. It would be very good for swashbuckler bards, but positively insane for centered kensais with divine might, especially builds getting high crit profiles. A SWF Cetus variant using Mornh, running in LD with Pulverizer and Overwhelming Crit and Earth Stance, would just be incredible.

[bbqzor]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage
Figures this would happen while I was writing my other long post. This would yield speeds of: 112 attacks/min (one feat), then 123, then 133. After 25% doublestrike, thats 140/153/166.

Had it been up when I wrote up my post, Id have said: The pros are its simpler, less prone to capping out, and something easier to understand without math. The cons are its less dmg, because theres no die/patk/seeker adjustments, and offers nothing unique as a choice or for the item slot. While I support easily understood transparency, it simply cant be this low on damage, and it cant lack something unique (imo). But this is far better than that first post (sigh @ +1 die side and nothing else), so its good to see it moving in the right direction.

Perhaps combining this version with the +1 die side per tier version would work. Its both simple, and has the potential to offer competitive dps without all the crazy I wrote. But it still needs something unique like the offhand daze (or whatever). So maybe there is hope. Looking forward to the next version... not there yet.

[Caprice]

If you keep the improvements to ability score damage . . . which I do think are very interesting . . . then I think you need to tone down the attack speed. It feels weird now arguing that this is too powerful after multiple pages going the other direction, but I'm pretty sure this is nuts.

I've been thinking about this a bit, and there are some incredibly broken builds that these feats would open up. It would be very good for swashbuckler bards, but positively insane for centered kensais with divine might, especially builds getting high crit profiles. A SWF Cetus variant using Mornh, running in LD with Pulverizer and Overwhelming Crit and Earth Stance, would just be incredible.
Shhh! Don't ruin a good thing! j/k

I'm going to agree. If anything knock it down to +25% / +50% so that it matches THF base at the third feat. The attack speed bonus (if my math is correct) should put total DPS slightly behind a THF once glancing damage and glancing procs take effect. That seems reasonable if SWF forgoes the ability score requirements.

[maddmatt70]

If you keep the improvements to ability score damage . . . which I do think are very interesting . . . then I think you need to tone down the attack speed. It feels weird now arguing that this is too powerful after multiple pages going the other direction, but I'm pretty sure this is nuts.

I've been thinking about this a bit, and there are some incredibly broken builds that these feats would open up. It would be very good for swashbuckler bards, but positively insane for centered kensais with divine might, especially builds getting high crit profiles. A SWF Cetus variant using Mornh, running in LD with Pulverizer and Overwhelming Crit and Earth Stance, would just be incredible.

Yeah he probably should move some of that increase to the swashbuckler enhancement itself; specifically, the +200% ability damage could be spread out in different core tiers. The Swing speed could stay as feats.

[N-0cturn]

I think it would be best to cap the attribute bonus at 150% since this is what TWF (1.0 main + 0,5 off) and THF have as well. Otherwise it might open up unwanted synergies.

Otherwise it looks a lot better.

[Tinco]

Perhaps combining this version with the +1 die side per tier version would work. Its both simple, and has the potential to offer competitive dps without all the crazy I wrote. But it still needs something unique like the offhand daze (or whatever). So maybe there is hope. Looking forward to the next version... not there yet.

Honestly, I'm too lazy to do any math before there's somewhat more stable information but 2x damagemod is huge. Just consider 60-80 Strength and this feats might be outright broken. I hate to actually say this, but with +30% as and another 0,5x Str mod (which can easily amount to >15 for surge/dm builds) this completely blows THF out of the water.

[Cardtrick]

I'm going to agree. If anything knock it down to +25% / +50% so that it matches THF base at the third feat. The attack speed bonus (if my math is correct) should put total DPS slightly behind a THF once glancing damage and glancing procs take effect. That seems reasonable if SWF forgoes the ability score requirements.

Yes. I was going to suggest something similar, but I want to try to put together some numbers first. My gut feeling is that this is right.

However, you have to bear in mind that the attack speed bonus will provide a greater bonus to SWF than to THF for weapons that have on-damage effects -- elemental damage, disabling effects, procs like Disintegrate (or Mortal Fear), etc. Same for Sneak Attack damage, especially since Sneak Attack doesn't apply to glancing blows at all. I was able to happily ignore such effects in my previous comparison because SWF and THF attacked at the same rate. The same would no longer be true. So you wind up balancing attack speed vs. glancing blows, and it would probably turn out that which is better would depend a lot on the specifics of the weapons involved.

[merentha]

That's not what's meant in the original post. A weapon with more than one Weapon Die Multiplier, such as the base Alchemical Dwarven Waraxe 2[1d10] would work fine.

The few that wouldn't are items with more than one base Weapon Die, like the Axe of Famine, which is [2d8].

Our current list of weapons that wouldn't work under those rules is:
Agony, Knife in the Dark
Axe of Famine
Braisingstar
Zephyr (Heroic Only)
Shining Crescents
Obsidian Dagger
Axe of the Unseen Blow
Xoriat Forged Blade
Tharkuul's Bane
Coronation
Phosphor
Twinblade
Sheridan's Ruin
Sheridan's Wrack

If you're aware of any others, please let us know.


This list is tiny and the only one that made me half feel bad was Agony >< I'm sure many have started tentative plans around one of these, but we'll get by with the other options. Particularly, with optimism that you'll be throwing in some nice nuggets of 1h choices in the epic TBC update.

[Holybird]

These improvement will make singlehanding an valid option; that is good. Single weapon fighting feats make runearm+dwarven axe artificers valid option. But as Cardtrick said those Centered Kensais will get best buff from these feats. It is scary that already powerful Monks would get stacking 30% attackspeed and 200% Ability Score bonus to damage. Don't make those SWF feats unusable but try to prevent Centered Kensais getting another god-like style of fighting.





P.S Could you think about possibility to give these feats free to bards at lvl 2, 6 and 11 or 12. they are already featstarved.


-With all respect, Holybird

[merentha]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

I'd almost trade attack speed for % fortification bypass along with a 1% per feat stackable dodge (I mean stack with the other dodge feats and enhancement).

If you seriously consider making fighting style feats more distinct and awesome independantly then I support the idea of the first feat of each style granting a stance that is only canceled manually or by changing into another stance:
SWF
TWF
THF

Ranged could get a similar review:
Throwing
Bow
X-Bow

On that note I often wonder if Unarmed should be separated out into it's own stance as well (applying to unarmed and ki weapons). Of, course this would break many kensai/monk splashes.

This way you could add additional bonuses to a combat style without it bleeding excessive power into another style.


... But as Cardtrick said those Centered Kensais will get best buff from these feats. It is scary that already powerful Monks would get stacking 30% attackspeed and 200% Ability Score bonus to damage. Don't make those SWF feats unusable but try to prevent Centered Kensais getting another god-like style of fighting.


P.S Could you think about possibility to give these feats free to bards at lvl 2, 6 and 11 or 12. they are already featstarved.


Taking his observations into account. If you decide to give the feats to free to bards, then I think my suggestions would be overpowered in that context without the stance implementation of course.

[Captain_Wizbang]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking) double strike
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF) different new doublestrike
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage. triplestrike


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc..

There, Fixed it for ya! ;)

Just auto-grant these, and may I throw in another idea.

Give Swashbucklers inherent bonuses while on water or any ship. After all, they have sea legs.
reflex, balance, dodge, evasion, and added agility are just a few,
That sea-dog ability would be of great use in any area w/ water actually.
Just sayin' ;)

[bbqzor]

Honestly, I'm too lazy to do any math before there's somewhat more stable information but 2x damagemod is huge. Just consider 60-80 Strength and this feats might be outright broken. I hate to actually say this, but with +30% as and another 0,5x Str mod (which can easily amount to >15 for surge/dm builds) this completely blows THF out of the water.

Not really. With haste and 25% doublestrike (from a characters other stuff), this would be ~166/min at 2x str, where as 2HD is ~125/min at 1.5x str but double patk plus ~93 glances (at 50%, or +46.5 attacks). So you have 166 vs 171.5. At str 80, youd gain 12.5 dmg per swing vs 2hd patk (not counting patk improvements like wf or barb have), or 2075 dmg a minute. Minus whatever the 2hd guy hits for those extra 5.5 swings (at least 100, certainly). Being ahead ~25 dps against a single mob sounds nice, except:

-There is no area damage, and a huge portion of the epic game is all about groups of mobs. If there are even 2 mobs, 2HD again pulls ahead easily.
-2WF is still even farther head against a single mob (due to many, many more attacks, even without x2 str).

SWF is still worse. Its less single target damage than 2WF, and no area damage vs 2HD. However this might "seem", its still mathematically pointless without further adjustment, even with 80 str. At least its getting closer though.

[jakeelala]

PLEASE let this work with throwing weapons

[Tinco]

Not really. With haste and 25% doublestrike (from a characters other stuff), this would be ~166/min at 2x str, where as 2HD is ~125/min at 1.5x str but double patk plus ~93 glances (at 50%, or +46.5 attacks). So you have 166 vs 171.5. At str 80, youd gain 12.5 dmg per swing vs 2hd patk (not counting patk improvements like wf or barb have), or 2075 dmg a minute. Minus whatever the 2hd guy hits for those extra 5.5 swings (at least 100, certainly). Being ahead ~25 dps against a single mob sounds nice, except:

-There is no area damage, and a huge portion of the epic game is all about groups of mobs. If there are even 2 mobs, 2HD again pulls ahead easily.
-2WF is still even farther head against a single mob (due to many, many more attacks, even without x2 str).

SWF is still worse. Its less single target damage than 2WF, and no area damage vs 2HD. However this might "seem", its still mathematically pointless without further adjustment, even with 80 str. At least its getting closer though.

Well, I already wrote an answer for your previous version, but there we go, I'll answer to this one:

-Glancing blows don't reliably carry weapon effects, while 30% attackspeed also increases those by 30%. Just a rough estimation from looking at Thunder-forged gear, that's not a negligible amount.
-Same goes for any static +dmg bonus like SA.
-AoE nowadays is primarily done with Cleave/GCleave which both styles have access to. Now, I agree that THF is somewhat better here because glancing blows probably outdamage the 0,5x STR but not by a lot.

In the best case it's a wash from feats alone. And that's a win for SWF because of the Swashbuckler PrE.

[Caprice]

Yes. I was going to suggest something similar, but I want to try to put together some numbers first. My gut feeling is that this is right.

However, you have to bear in mind that the attack speed bonus will provide a greater bonus to SWF than to THF for weapons that have on-damage effects -- elemental damage, disabling effects, procs like Disintegrate (or Mortal Fear), etc. Same for Sneak Attack damage, especially since Sneak Attack doesn't apply to glancing blows at all. I was able to happily ignore such effects in my previous comparison because SWF and THF attacked at the same rate. The same would no longer be true. So you wind up balancing attack speed vs. glancing blows, and it would probably turn out that which is better would depend a lot on the specifics of the weapons involved.
Yes, that was definitely me eyeballing the total effect rather than doing proper math to justify it. All your points are true but TWF also gets a bonus to the number of attacks compared to THF (and in fact a higher one than SWF) so that comparison needs to be made across all three to be valid. I will be pretty happy if lots of SA dice & proc effects means TWF > SWF > THF and none means THF > SWF > TWF, but that the gap is mostly closed for staff builds due to the fairly generous enhancements they get.

Although TBH this still feels rather generous for a feat with no stat requirements, although the Balance skill requirement is awkward too in its own way. I wonder if skill tomes are going to help satisfy this like stat tomes help with THF and TWF. They should, but if so then the value of Balance tomes just jumped a fair bit.

One other element to consider is that by my reading PA should give only the base +5 damage to a SWF weapon despite the increase to the stat contribution from the SWF feats, so THF does have that going for it too. At the higher end this is +11 for a WF or HOrc Ravager.

[Nibor]

These improvement will make singlehanding an valid option; that is good. Single weapon fighting feats make runearm+dwarven axe artificers valid option. But as Cardtrick said those Centered Kensais will get best buff from these feats. It is scary that already powerful Monks would get stacking 30% attackspeed and 200% Ability Score bonus to damage. Don't make those SWF feats unusable but try to prevent Centered Kensais getting another god-like style of fighting.


Centered Kenseis already can choose between THF and TWF. Usually picking TWF because of the current state of loot (Thunderforged has a lot of the damage stacked into the crit procs, so you want as many as possible, which means TWF). If loot changes they may pick something else. There's nothing you can do to keep them from also being able to choose SWF. We shouldn't really be afraid of Centered Kensei builds using SWF - if they're considering it then that means we've built a useful line of feats. If they're never going to use it then we probably have a crappy line of feats. Ideally the "right choice" would change over time as gear is available. The hard part is that TWF and SWF will be the same gear. Is the attack speed and 2xStr multiplier going to be better than the vastly higher proc rate of the on-crit stuff for Thunderforged? And the ability to stack different effects in each hand? You lose at least a red slot going SWF, which matters in various ways. I don't play one, and I'm not going to run numbers on it, so I don't really know, but that's the questions you'd have to ask. If you find both SWF and TWF Centered Kenseis going into EE quests/raids together, then you've nailed it in my opinion.

Speaking of which, endgame will want named bucklers with a red or purple slot so that swashbucklers can slot sonic and devotion without too much hassle. Or else a decent bard item with max sonic spellpower, I suppose, but it would be nice not to have that be a "must have" item, just a "boy that would be cool to have" item.

[bbqzor]

I already wrote an answer for your previous version
Sorry, got distracted by ants here and had the math wrong. Tried to edit quickly, sorry for wasting any time. Stupid ants trying to eat cake.


I'll answer to this one:
-Glancing blows don't reliably carry weapon effects, while 30% attackspeed also increases those by 30%. Just a rough estimation from looking at Thunder-forged gear, that's not a negligible amount.
-Same goes for any static +dmg bonus like SA.
-AoE nowadays is primarily done with Cleave/GCleave which both styles have access to. Now, I agree that THF is somewhat better here because glancing blows probably outdamage the 0,5x STR but not by a lot.
In the best case it's a wash from feats alone. And that's a win for SWF because of the Swashbuckler PrE.
-Glances and procs/sneak/etc: True, this would have an advantage vs 2HD with on-hit effects (for lack of a better grouping term here). But thats true of 2WF too. And in both cases is highly dependent on itemization. Its impossible to say what mobs will come out, with what resistances, etc etc... so I think most people would agree that raw damage is the preferred type, all other things being equal. Currently, this would favor SWF over 2HD with thunder-forged... but SWF would still lose to 2WF, as would be true of any sneak build (ie, assassins arent swapping to SWF, not that they should just, they wont). Also, Im hesitant to see it go live on the theory that procs will carry the day, since over time theres no guarantee itemization will remain that way.

-AoE and cleaves etc: Yes, the glances come out ahead here, but also dont forget: cleaves require power attack, which is increased on builds that favor cleave (like half orc barb, better power attack, additional cleaves, etc). Now again, thats true under any circumstance, but such things close the gap between an "optimized" 2HD and an "optimized" SWF. Like, theres nothing anyone can do to get better SWF returns like they can with power attack, or additional cleaves, etc. And something like a swashbuckler wouldnt want power attack... they want precision instead, meaning if they want to play the cleave game they effectively lose additional feats for it. In other words, optimization with SWF kind of ends with these feats... they have a lot to shoulder.

So is SWF (this version) good for swashbuckler? Oh sure, no doubt. Its the only thing in the game with support for SWF, so it better be =p. But if SWF is only useful on a swashbuckler, its kind of a lot of wasted design time no? The feats should be something other builds might use, and its not there yet. And even at those values, SWF isnt "better" in any fashion. Swash/SWF is more dps against a single mob than 2HD would be... but that sentence ought to be true right? Its still less than 2WF would be, and less area than 2HD is against area (in addition to having cleaves essentially cost more due to swash not wanting patk etc).

So I dunno that Id call it a win. I mean Im fine that people have different viewpoints, thats kind of the entire reason to go to forums. Like bringing up procs, thats a good point. A lot of swash weapons will likely have decent procs. But they all wont, Balizarde is a great example of a prime swash weapon that wont capitalize on that facet. But even so, if the only SWF claim to fame is "its better single target dps than 2hd, but still worse than 2wf, but I can swash with it!" well... I guess if I was the devs Id have done that differently.

I still think it needs something unique like the daze to be a real choice... most everyones saying it should wind up in the middle. But thats almost self defeating. Wherever it is, 2WF will be better, and SWF will be worse against groups, so why ever SWF? It cant just be "swashbuckler", that shouldnt be the only reason. Hopefully they keep tuning it and add something interesting/new. Good discussion though. Cheers.

[Vargouille]

Looks pretty nice. As I suggested before would like some douplestrike and dodge summed in to those feats. Ability Score to damage is very nice addition indeed. If you could put +1 crit range and multiplier to last feat it would be awesome.

One question about attack speed although thematically very nice is how well the servers can handle swing speed - would this increase lag a bunch or something. At one time we were led to believe that attack speed increased lag.

We've been shying away from putting (much) Dodge into these feats because we want to allow for the possibility of using these feats with Heavy Armor (which we also want to make more functional, longer-term).

There are still real concerns with increased attack speed, but the issues we've investigated are mitigated for the specific case of SWF. Don't take this as a sign that TWF is going to receive a new attack speed boost in the near future, for instance.

[nibel]

Cardtrick, a 10% increase in speed, isn't it just a 10% flat increase in damage? Maybe I am just tired and I should go to sleep. But the way I read it, this (which substitutes the previous proposal they had), means that everything else equal (ceteris paribus :O ), a SWF is hitting 1.1 times for every 1 time of say a THF. So basically, taken current damage of a guy with a single weapon, scale it up to 1.1.

Yes and no.

If you are considering both just standing with the mob, using their basic attacks all the time, yes.

But attacks with non-standard animations, like cleave, momentum swing, sunder, trip, stunning blow... are not affected by extra attack speed. If you use those attacks a lot, extra attack speed is devalued by proxy.

You can easily test this. Go into a tavern, unequip any speed item you might have, and start chain cleaving to get the "timing" for them. Then drink an Haste potion and do it again.

On the other side, those attacks are also unaffected by slow effects, so if you are chained, crippled, or slowed, cleave your way through.

[nibel]

* We're not about to hand out runearm proficiency in a Bard enhancement tree. Runearms and Orbs have some support for cross class and different build strategies so they can hopefully add to the number of viable builds. You are not supposed to be able to replace 'being an Artificer' with a few Action Points.

I was advocating for granting Runearm proficiency so that we would have a second option when looking for it.

Right now, runearms are the only item type in the game that can't be acquired via a feat: You can get proficient on every weapon, every armor, every shield, and every orb (via Magical Training, that you turned into a general feat once you gave us orbs).

If it was given there, it would be two options to acquire runearm proficiency: 1) Multiclass 2 artificer levels, or 2) Multiclass 3 bard levels and spend at least 11 or 12 APs in the Swashbuckler tree. Option #1 is easier to fit in almost all instances you want that specific proficiency, but having a second option on bards would give more build versatility.

But message received. I will stop pestering you guys for it. :)

[Tinco]

Cheers.

Cheers.

I think we simply disagree on how good it should be. I think, highly depending on what enhancements/eFeat/item-support SWF gets from now, that there needs to be a small opportunity cost in terms of damage because SWF has the option of using that offhand via enhancements (maybe even bigger shields, that sounds like a very nice T5 ability in both of the defender trees). If SWF is 100% competitive from feats alone, THF as a combat style will be in trouble.

[Vargouille]

Option #1 is easier to fit in almost all instances you want that specific proficiency, but having a second option on bards would give more build versatility.

Just to be clear, this idea is perfectly sound, and we may have looooong range plans that may result in other ways to get proficiency. These dark & secret schemes do sometimes mean we avoid putting that same mini 'feature' out somewhere else earlier than we're hoping to do someday (and sometimes someday is a long way away).

/tease

[Scrabbler]

If SWF is 100% competitive from feats alone, THF as a combat style will be in trouble.
Another thing that must be remembered is that THF uses its own separate weapon items, while SWF, TWF, and S&B can all share the same mainhand item. So if you're not certain what style you'll be using in the future (as you TR and respec other ways), it's a bit more costly to invest in farming/crafting THF gear that can't be used in other styles.

Now that SWF is based on swinging one weapon fast and hard, it's fair to ask why Greataxes and Falchions are disallowed in that style...

[Tinco]

Now that SWF is based on swinging one weapon fast and hard, it's fair to ask why Greataxes and Falchions are disallowed in that style...

This is actually a brilliant idea.

Get rid of THF feats (they are mediocre anyway), get rid of glancing blows (also not the best idea from day one), rephrase the bonus to 10%/20%/30% speed + 0/25/50% more ability contribution to damage and use them for 2h, 1h and 1h+x (last one via enhancements, covers S/B and swashbuckling and Eldritch Knights). 2h goes up to 2x, 1h to 1.5x.

(That's probably asking for too much at the moment, but one can dream)

[droid327]

You do also get the +2 CHA for an additional point of Perform and Enchant DC and the +2 DEX for an extra point of reflex save. And there are the normal benefits of going with 20 bard levels versus 18: an extra spell, more SP, and an extra +1 attack and damage to yourself and all party members from the improved Inspire Courage.

I do value all of that together more than +2 Sneak die and the other benefits you mentioned. Although getting haste boost and trap skills as well from rogue levels makes it tougher.

Yeah I thought of that...but odds are if you're building for Swashbuckler, you're not building for casting. It seems an "either-or" proposition to me, considering the SWF feat reqs you mentioned. Anyone built for proper Swashbuckling is not going to be built for CC casting, they just wont have the DCs and metas to make it work.

[bbqzor]

At this point I figured this would be useful to have. I broke out things like stat application for comparison. All figures assume haste and 25% doublestrike, reasoning per other posts. All glances assume zero procs, because the chances are so low and so expensive to raise its easier to ignore it (with only minor impact mechanically).

TWF Wraps: 247 atk/min, 247x str, 247x patk, 247x on-hits
TWF Weapons: 228 atk/min, 190x str, 228x patk, 228x on-hits
1HD Weapons: 127 atk/min, 127x str, 127x patk, 127x on-hits
1HD S/B: 127 atk/min plus 95 glances, 174x str, 174x patk, 127x on-hits
2HD Fast: 125 atk/min plus 93 glances, 257x str, 250x patk, 125x on-hits
2HD Slow: 121 atk/min plus 91 glances, 249x str, 242x patk, 121x on-hits

SWF (current version, 30% stacking haste, 2x ability mod): 166 atk/min, 332x str, 166x patk, 166x on-hits

vs TWF Weapons: 28% less attacks overall, including 28% less patk and on-hit values. But it has 74% more str application. This means to close the gap, the feat relies *heavily* on that ability modifier. Put another way, getting 3/4ths more str bonus has to overcome 1/4th of the attack speed, power attack, and proc damage of TWF. Thats just not very practical. But its similar enough to say SWF is in the game... its just a less optimal choice.

vs 2HD Weapons: For either fast or slow, SWF is about 5% behind on base hits and 33% behind on patk. And its completely behind on glances, for area damage. But it is ahead 32% on str bonus and on-hit effects. If your str bonus is more than your power attack bonus and you have some decent procs, and you dont care about area damage, SWF isnt bad. Its about break even against single target mobs, probably pulling ahead using a contemporary build designed for that scenario. However, by giving up all the area damage to focus on single target, it kind of goes back to competing with TWF where its still behind.

vs S/B: Again, about 5% behind on base hits. More if the S/B user has shield bash investments. And behind the same 5% on patk. However, SWF is up a whopping 90% in str bonus, and 30% in on-hits. Now its pretty easy to say nearly doubling your str mod will make up for 5% speed or patk, even without the increase in procs. Here SWF is a clear winner. And it rather should be. It offers none of the benefits of the shield setup (ac, prr, additional item stats, blocking increases, etc). So its a clear case of SWF being a dps option, while S/B is a defensive one.

SWF is at least in the game. When you break out the values for add ons, it holds up a bit better. In a way it still lacks "a point"... if you dont have a shield, theres no reason not to do TWF or 2HD, and TWF is better single target, and 2HD is better area... so why SWF? Yes, Swashbucklers, but really we shouldnt be seeing a 3 feat chain go into the game just to help one prestige tree of bards. If thats the case, theres about 50 other 3 feat chains which need to live for each other tree and yea... lets not.

Out of curiosity, heres the SWF (current version above, plus the 1 die step per feat combo): 166 atk/min, 332x str, 166x patk, 166x on-hits, +[W(498)] total damage. (For example, that means if youre using a 3W weapon, youd do an extra 3x498 damage over 1 minute). An easier example in relative terms is, with a thunder-forged weapon its basically the same as having 12 more Strength (like str 60 to 72, actual score not bonus). Less with lower W weapons (its only the same as +2-4 Strength in heroic). While (a max of) +12 Str on a chain which puts so much value on the str mod might seem too good, mathematically its not really that bad. It means it would actually outpace 2HD against single target mobs instead of be close to tied, and it means it would approach TWF without requiring two weapons.

That works for me, or a unique effect like the offhand daze which promotes a reason to do it over "swashbuckler" and "wanna be different". I think if they combine them, it gains enough vs 2HD to be a legitimate alternative, without requiring double weapon farming and dex scores of TWF. It also gives new or returning players an avenue they can use which is actually effective while they may work up to something more min/max. Cheers all.

[Silverleafeon]

At this point I figured this would be useful to have. I broke out things like stat application for comparison. All figures assume haste and 25% doublestrike, reasoning per other posts. All glances assume zero procs, because the chances are so low and so expensive to raise its easier to ignore it (with only minor impact mechanically).

TWF Wraps: 247 atk/min, 247x str, 247x patk, 247x on-hits
TWF Weapons: 228 atk/min, 190x str, 228x patk, 228x on-hits
1HD Weapons: 127 atk/min, 127x str, 127x patk, 127x on-hits
1HD S/B: 127 atk/min plus 95 glances, 174x str, 174x patk, 127x on-hits
2HD Fast: 125 atk/min plus 93 glances, 257x str, 250x patk, 125x on-hits
2HD Slow: 121 atk/min plus 91 glances, 249x str, 242x patk, 121x on-hits

SWF (current version, 30% stacking haste, 2x ability mod): 166 atk/min, 332x str, 166x patk, 166x on-hits

vs TWF Weapons: 28% less attacks overall, including 28% less patk and on-hit values. But it has 74% more str application. This means to close the gap, the feat relies *heavily* on that ability modifier. Put another way, getting 3/4ths more str bonus has to overcome 1/4th of the attack speed, power attack, and proc damage of TWF. Thats just not very practical. But its similar enough to say SWF is in the game... its just a less optimal choice.

vs 2HD Weapons: For either fast or slow, SWF is about 5% behind on base hits and 33% behind on patk. And its completely behind on glances, for area damage. But it is ahead 32% on str bonus and on-hit effects. If your str bonus is more than your power attack bonus and you have some decent procs, and you dont care about area damage, SWF isnt bad. Its about break even against single target mobs, probably pulling ahead using a contemporary build designed for that scenario. However, by giving up all the area damage to focus on single target, it kind of goes back to competing with TWF where its still behind.

vs S/B: Again, about 5% behind on base hits. More if the S/B user has shield bash investments. And behind the same 5% on patk. However, SWF is up a whopping 90% in str bonus, and 30% in on-hits. Now its pretty easy to say nearly doubling your str mod will make up for 5% speed or patk, even without the increase in procs. Here SWF is a clear winner. And it rather should be. It offers none of the benefits of the shield setup (ac, prr, additional item stats, blocking increases, etc). So its a clear case of SWF being a dps option, while S/B is a defensive one.

SWF is at least in the game. When you break out the values for add ons, it holds up a bit better. In a way it still lacks "a point"... if you dont have a shield, theres no reason not to do TWF or 2HD, and TWF is better single target, and 2HD is better area... so why SWF? Yes, Swashbucklers, but really we shouldnt be seeing a 3 feat chain go into the game just to help one prestige tree of bards. If thats the case, theres about 50 other 3 feat chains which need to live for each other tree and yea... lets not.

Out of curiosity, heres the SWF (current version above, plus the 1 die step per feat combo): 166 atk/min, 332x str, 166x patk, 166x on-hits, +[W(498)] total damage. (For example, that means if youre using a 3W weapon, youd do an extra 3x498 damage over 1 minute). An easier example in relative terms is, with a thunder-forged weapon its basically the same as having 12 more Strength (like str 60 to 72, actual score not bonus). Less with lower W weapons (its only the same as +2-4 Strength in heroic). While (a max of) +12 Str on a chain which puts so much value on the str mod might seem too good, mathematically its not really that bad. It means it would actually outpace 2HD against single target mobs instead of be close to tied, and it means it would approach TWF without requiring two weapons.

That works for me, or a unique effect like the offhand daze which promotes a reason to do it over "swashbuckler" and "wanna be different". I think if they combine them, it gains enough vs 2HD to be a legitimate alternative, without requiring double weapon farming and dex scores of TWF. It also gives new or returning players an avenue they can use which is actually effective while they may work up to something more min/max. Cheers all.

Thanks for the number crunching.

[Ganak]

Epic Swashbuckler anyone?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Swashbuckler

[A3oN95]

Here is my take on what the SWF feats should be like:
I don't think they should be pure DPS boosters. There I said it. A single longsword matching the power of two longswords or a greatsword is a ridiculous idea in my opinion. So I would make them more defensive rather than offensive, with some function that adds DPS with defense. Also I would have them work with shields. S&B could use the love.

Single Weapon Fighting: Any qualifying weapon that you wield gains riposte X, where X scales based on character level
Improved Single Weapon Fighting: Add your BaB as a miss chance that stacks with dodge, displacement, and incorporeal.
Greater Single Weapon Fighting: Any time you are missed you deal damage to the attacker as if you had hit them with the qualifying weapon. This may only occur once, but is reset when you make an attack.

Maybe the numbers would need to be altered, but that is basically what I would like to see from it.

While I don't necessarily agree with the suggestions, the part in bold is EXACTLY what I think about SWF. Being "as powerful" doesn't have to mean "doing as much damage" (actually, it shouldn't mean anything like that at all imho, otherwise it'd be a rather dull and unnecessary additon to the game, not to mention it wouldn't even make sense, as pointed above).

[Tinco]

I disagree, SWF feats need to be clear and simple and boring. They (like every other comparable feat, e.g. THF/TWF) just form the foundation of the fighting style damage- and flavor-wise, there shouldn't be anything fancy about them. What you describe are enhancements with the feats as prerequisites.

[HatsuharuZ]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

I'd suggest that the SWF bonuses be bonuses that you can't get from other combat style feats. For example:

SWF: +10% stacking attack speed, +5% triplestrike
ISWF: (same as above, stacking)
GSWF: (same as SWF, but stacking), and +1 critical threat range

Like the THF feat line, the third and last feat in the line gives you some extra "oomph" that wasn't included in the first two. Also, giving multiple attacks has the added benefit of being thematically appropriate.

[unbongwah]

These dark & secret schemes do sometimes mean we avoid putting that same mini 'feature' out somewhere else earlier than we're hoping to do someday (and sometimes someday is a long way away).

/tease
Bah! I'm still waiting on the remaining racial PrEs! I'm not falling for that line again!

. . .

Please, sir, can I have some more racial PrEs?

Now that SWF is based on swinging one weapon fast and hard, it's fair to ask why Greataxes and Falchions are disallowed in that style...
*sigh* It figures: Vargouille finally - finally! - puts forth an idea for SWF which might actually make it competitive DPS and suddenly the 2H wielders are all like, "Nooooo fairrrrr, we want it tooooo!"

No, you can't have it, this is for us. Go spam your cleaves, axe-boys.

:cool:

[Silverleafeon]

Just to be clear, this idea is perfectly sound, and we may have looooong range plans that may result in other ways to get proficiency. These dark & secret schemes do sometimes mean we avoid putting that same mini 'feature' out somewhere else earlier than we're hoping to do someday (and sometimes someday is a long way away).

/tease

Hmm...

Hmm...

Hmm...

Sounds like maybe a new class?
What class would you throw runearms proficiency onto?

Would a warlock be appropriate?
Seems like there was a arcane rogue type somewhere as well?
Or would it need to b

[Silverleafeon]

*sigh* It figures: Vargouille finally - finally! - puts forth an idea for SWF which might actually make it competitive DPS and suddenly the 2H wielders are all like, "Nooooo fairrrrr, we want it tooooo!"

No, you can't have it, this is for us. Go spam your cleaves, axe-boys.

:cool:

lol +1

[nibel]

I would just like to throw out there, the idea that Swashbuckler would, I believe, probably make a lot more sense as a Human PrE (also available to Half Elves), rather than a Bard one (just need to strip out a couple of Bard centric things).

That is actually a very nice idea. Maybe also requiring non-lawful alignment to avoid monk/pally splashes, since the tree was thought as not having access to them.

What is exactly bard-centric on this tree? I count the +1/2/3 songs on T1, and the "bard music bonus" on Fast Movement. Get Aqua Vitae back at Tier 1 (since it will be a racial enhancement, not accessible before level 5), and change the fast movement to a Racial bonus based on character level (hardcapped at 20). The only downside is that if the cores follow AA levels, we would get the Evasion capstone at level 25, and that might be another incentive to push it down to Core 4 (Level 15).

[FlaviusMaximus]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


That looks fantastic. It pains me to suggest this, but perhaps the ability score bonus should be scaled back a bit. Either way, if this or something like this went live, I would waste no time making a SWF character or two. The DPS here looks rock solid.

[Nightmanis]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

Now these I really like. This seems more interesting than the bonus die sides and have the potential of being a great middle ground between TWF and THF. THF will always be better at AOE damage, and TWF will always be better at single target. So why not have a style that's better at single target than THF but worse than TWF, and better at AOE than TWF but worse than THF?

It will be interesting to see how these can be used with a buckler. If the Swashbuckler stance can be used as the same time as the Defender stances, I'd be really interested in that kind of flavour build.

[Scraap]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

That'll work for now as a starter, assuming the hard limit is higher than the soft limit, and you can crank the speed up higher as needed. One thing you may consider is the design-space overlap of twf vs swf when it comes to useful offhand procs. Right now we're currently at a place where it's pretty much attack the redbar and that's it for optimal behavior, which does have the unfortunate effect of degrading anything not straight damage, which is where twf used to shine (Conceptually, at least. Think back to the days of paralizer + cursespewing for instance when it came to damage mitigation as an actual valid tactic).

[Scrabbler]

At this point I figured this would be useful to have. I broke out things like stat application for comparison. All figures assume haste and 25% doublestrike, reasoning per other posts.
Did you treat THF weapons as having worse crit profiles than one-handers? (Minus the occasional named superweapon)

[TheGuyYouKnow]

i said it last thread and ill say it again
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441193-Swashbuckler?p=5320893#post5320893
SWF feat ideas

6, 12, 20 stacking attack speed and double strike, +1, 2, 3 [W]
or
1, 1.5, 2 damage per str mod, +2, 4, 6 tactical dcs, no evasion, evasion, improved evasion with nothing in offhand

[Delacroix21]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.


This gave me renewed faith in SWF, and it's costing me 5 dollars in internet time just to right this (I'm off the coast of Sicily now :). )


That being said I would like some fort bypass thrown in and at tier 3 a stacking +1 to crit range. You originally gave the feel of SWF to be precise attacks with frequent crits (like a fencer), and I believe that would give the fighting style a nice dose of flavor. I also want this SWF style to be attractive to rogues as well, as it fits them more than a bard. Also as I have said before the swash should get these feats for free, just like tempest rangers get TWF feats (albeit from class levels).


So to sum up:
SWF 10% attack speed increase, 10% fort bypass
ISWF 20% attack speed increase, 20% fort bypass, 150% ability score
GSWF 30% attack speed increase, 30% fort bypass, 200% ability score, +1 crit range

And epic:
PSWF another +1 crit range


Also as others have mentioned I would love to see this effect throwers as well.

[ufo2013]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

Nice, much much better than the original proposal :)

Ideas/tweaks to explore:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)

ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed.
While Power Attack stance is active, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
While Precision stance is active, +1 critical threat range (applied after keen/imp crit feat)
While Resilience stance is active, +1 all saves.
While Combat Expertise is active, gain +1% Dodge.

GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed.
While Power Attack stance is active, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage
While Precision stance is active, +1+1 critical threat range (applied after keen/imp crit feat)
While Resilience stance is active, +1+1 all saves and gain evasion feat if wearing light/no armor.
While Combat Expertise is active, gain +1+1% Dodge.

Remember that the combat stances are mutually exclusive.

[HungarianRhapsody]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage

This is good.

It acts a lot like THF, but without the damage to multiple opponents. Since THF weapons get glancing blows, they'll still get more damage than SWF, but this is actually interesting enough to make me consider SWF.

Much better than the die steps idea.

[Deathdefy]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

Nice. I think I'm a big fan.

Maybe don't let Strength be one of the Ability Scores that benefit - limit it to Dex, Cha and Int like in the Swashbuckler tree so THF / TWF is still preferable for strength based characters.

[TheGuyYouKnow]

will this work with crossbows and perhaps bows? ive got an arti with plenty extra feats

[Propane]

Unless I msissed some thingl - Monks need to be lawful - bards chatoic - you can't mix thse two classes.... (or Pally)...

[Scrabbler]

To help the goal of Swashbuckler supporting throwing combat, you can change tier 4 Wind At My Back so that it also allows thrown weapons to benefit from SWF feats.

Note that because Swashbuckler is nonlawful and Ninja is lawful, adding this benefit would not improve existing thrower builds. Instead it might start creating a new kind of thrower build.

[bbqzor]

Did you treat THF weapons as having worse crit profiles than one-handers? (Minus the occasional named superweapon)
Its not meant to be a dps calculator. That would require a number of other factors and bog things down tremendously.

Rather, its a proportional evaluation of "how much of what applies to where" so you can see how the different feat chains value different things. So like, it doesnt mean "all twf > all 2hd", because obviously thats going to depend on things like which weapons, how much str, etc. But it does show that you get more mileage out of high str using a 2hd, and by exactly how much (in proportions, not absolute terms). The idea was to show where SWF fits in, not exactly parse out specific stats.

So no, I didnt touch on that. Nor on the fact that things like glances cant crit, or that enhancements and things like overwhelming critical affect different weapons differently, etc. Most of that should come out in the wash, more or less... like you get 228 twf rapier hits/min, vs 247 twf handwrap hits/min... so rapiers are going to see a great deal more benefit from seeker (68 crits/min vs 24 crits/min, with improved critical on either). But then if you asked anyone what they expected, I would assume most people would put twf raipers ahead of handwraps for "how much would seeker help". So even though its not in those numbers, it should be easy to get from those numbers if you wondered about some specific comparison. Such things are just too detailed and varied to really make a single summary post about.

For a general case of SWF, it should show greater gains from criticals than 2HD. It has more attacks/min with can generate one, and as you mention can use profiles which offer more chances as well (so can 2HD, with falchion, but theres no kopesh equivalent). But it still gains less than TWF would (same profiles, but even more chances). So again, somewhere in the middle. SWF plus Swashbuckler has a good chance to actually make headway there, but thats reliant on the enhancement tree not the feats themselves, and is basically what swashbucklers seem to be about in a mechanical sense. So SWF plus swash is a good combo (in theory), which should be fun and effective. But it doesnt make SWF land anywhere but where you might expect it, in the middle between 2HD and TWF.

Hopefully that helps answer things, cheers.

[poltt48]

How come a week ago the GMs said when they made 1hand weapon feats would include shield users so would help more then just new bard prestige but then when released said cannot use a shield? But do have to agree these are worst 3 feats ever seen no one is going to take them even bard going full swashbuckler. Also I agree with others when said the +12 reflex save is way to much. Rogues and monks witch are your evation classes get no where close to that much reflex bonus. Your talking about giving them double to triple bonus monks and rogues get to reflexes when they are already tied for most base reflex in game.

[Scrabbler]

How come a week ago the GMs said when they made 1hand weapon feats would include shield users so would help more then just new bard prestige but then when released said cannot use a shield?
Probably they noticed that Shield builds already spent a lot of feats on Shield stuff. Allowing SWF to work with shields would benefit Fighter Defenders, but Paladin Defenders couldn't take it along with their normal things.


Also I agree with others when said the +12 reflex save is way to much. Rogues and monks witch are your evation classes get no where close to that much reflex bonus. Your talking about giving them double to triple bonus monks and rogues get to reflexes when they are already tied for most base reflex in game.
Well, the +12 Reflex is in Swashbuckler to make up for how Bards can never get Divine Grace. It might be interesting if the Swashbuckler reflex was changed from a flat +12 into your Charisma Mod...

Also notice that Rogue and Monk don't need as much Reflex, because they have Imp Evasion and Swashbuckler only gives regular.

[Lauf]

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

the attack speed makes sense, the ability score bonus to your damage does not.
here's why:

you sort of expect a THF greataxe wielding barbarian to get his strength behind the swing (150% ability bonus)
just as you can reasonably expect that swing would do more damage than if he was swinging a single handed weapon.
so I would steer clear of trying to match damage on a blow-for-blow with the THF weapons (no die sides, increase to all damage, ability score bonus to damage etc.)

where single weapon fighting should theoretically shine is in the nimbleness it allows the wielder, = attack speed, doublestrike, dodge, crit chance etc.

just my 2 cents.

[BigErkyKid]

the attack speed makes sense, the ability score bonus to your damage does not.
here's why:

you sort of expect a THF greataxe wielding barbarian to get his strength behind the swing (150% ability bonus)
just as you can reasonably expect that swing would do more damage than if he was swinging a single handed weapon.
so I would steer clear of trying to match damage on a blow-for-blow with the THF weapons (no die sides, increase to all damage, ability score bonus to damage etc.)

where single weapon fighting should theoretically shine is in the nimbleness it allows the wielder, = attack speed, doublestrike, dodge, crit chance etc.

just my 2 cents.

I agree. Full STR behind the blow seems a bit much, comparted to a TH weapon, where you would expect a lot of momentum in the swing.

I would reduce a bit the STR behind blow and introduce improved range for crits.

Thinking about crits,what they mean is that you hit a vulnerable area. Now this is a matter of aim. How is it easier to have good aim, while yielding two weapons, while just using full str behind your blows with a TH weapon? It makes sense to have increased crit range, IMO, with SWF.

PS - Please, while you are revising the bards, have a look at how their abilities scale. Example, frozen fury is DC 14 + CHA modifier. Even for a high CHA build, this is simply useless after a while. Same goes for the songs, pretty soon they are worth nothing, a lot of them. Bards need more scaling abilities...

The Monk way is the one to follow with bards, IMO. Character levels to the ability!

[Tinco]

The Monk way is the one to follow with bards, IMO. Character levels to the ability![/U][/B]

You mean that one Feat Monks can take? Every other ability is tied to monk level. 10+0.5*classlevel+mod should be the standard DC for heroic abilities though.

[BigErkyKid]

You mean that one Feat Monks can take? Every other ability is tied to monk level. 10+0.5*classlevel+mod should be the standard DC for heroic abilities though.

Stunning fist, I meant. But I agree, plenty of the abilities should go the way you mentioned. They just scale horribly and we end up with only a few builds in epics...

I don-t see a reason why bard songs and abilities should not scale...they might even be useful then! :P

PS - for bards, I would be careful making the quivering palm style. Bards are more likely to be used if people can multiclass them, IMO. As it is, they are already "gimped" by not having access to the top power bringing classes, monk and paladin.

[Failedlegend]

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d14 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)


Well 99% of this stuff is math & chart making related which isn't really my forte but what I do notice is the dice increase follows an odd path.

SWF: 1D8 -> 1D10 -> 1d12 -> 1d14

Normal: 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10 -> 2D12 -> 3D6,etc.

I'm not really complaining...just curious

[A3oN95]

I disagree, SWF feats need to be clear and simple and boring. They (like every other comparable feat, e.g. THF/TWF) just form the foundation of the fighting style damage- and flavor-wise, there shouldn't be anything fancy about them. What you describe are enhancements with the feats as prerequisites.

I agree with the second part of your sentence (the enhancements should provide the 'fancy' stuff, not the base feats), but I've already read more than a couple posts which seem to be suggesting they turn SWF combat-style (end product of feats + enhancements) into an exact replica of THF or TWF, only with a different animation. If that was the case, it would be a waste of development effort and time.

A single 1-h weapon shouldn't do as much raw damage as a huge greataxe, and a single 1-h weapon shouldn't do as much raw damage as two of them together. That'd be a tradeoff you would make for the advantages you would get by using that combat style (attack speed, or double-strike, or critical hit range increase, or defensive bonuses, a combination of these, for example). And that should replace the "x% Ability Score bonus to your damage", which is an exact copy of THF. I'm sure there's a way to keep the fighting styles balanced without making them redundant.

[droid327]

Another thought about SWF feats....

How about making them *autogrant* for Bards, the way TWF is for Rangers? Stick them in at the same levels that Rangers get the corresponding TWF feats.

That'd help with the already feat-starved aspect of Bards. It'd make Bard more attractive as a medium splash, the way Ranger is for TWF, and give people a reason to splash more than 4 just for the Swashbuckler line. It'd make a hybrid caster-swashbuckler a practical possibility. And, plus, Bard just needs help as a standalone class, not just as a means to a decent PrE.

[BigErkyKid]

I agree with the second part of your sentence (the enhancements should provide the 'fancy' stuff, not the base feats), but I've already read more than a couple posts which seem to be suggesting they turn SWF combat-style (end product of feats + enhancements) into an exact replica of THF or TWF, only with a different animation. If that was the case, it would be a waste of development effort and time.

A single 1-h weapon shouldn't do as much raw damage as a huge greataxe, and a single 1-h weapon shouldn't do as much raw damage as two of them together. That'd be a tradeoff you would make for the advantages you would get by using that combat style (attack speed, or double-strike, or critical hit range increase, or defensive bonuses, a combination of these, for example). And that should replace the "x% Ability Score bonus to your damage", which is an exact copy of THF. I'm sure there's a way to keep the fighting styles balanced without making them redundant.

It will never be a replica since there is the off hand possibility. But right now regardless of what you equip in your offhand, as a SWFer you are strictly worse off. This would increase the power of the style and hence make viable a huge amount of builds.


Another thought about SWF feats....

How about making them *autogrant* for Bards, the way TWF is for Rangers? Stick them in at the same levels that Rangers get the corresponding TWF feats.

That'd help with the already feat-starved aspect of Bards. It'd make Bard more attractive as a medium splash, the way Ranger is for TWF, and give people a reason to splash more than 4 just for the Swashbuckler line. It'd make a hybrid caster-swashbuckler a practical possibility. And, plus, Bard just needs help as a standalone class, not just as a means to a decent PrE.

I like this idea, but with caution. Right now the bard swash is very narrowly flavored.

[Flavilandile]

I've given the appropriate time for other to answer now...

As a PC member I was never shown the feats... But I was told that there was going to be feats.
That made me wait and see what the feats were going to be.... now I know... they are weak.

So, even with the feats, it doesn't cut it.
Or to make it clear : Swasbuckler is just a flavor PRE, since it will never come near ( even with the feats ) the DPS TWF or THF can do.

If you want to make people pick it up you will have to drop the We want it to be SWF only and introduce some TWF in the tree.
Most of the time swashbucklers are not SWF, look at the classics, they are using a lot the rapier/dagger or the cutlass/dagger combo.

So if you really want to make the PRE work, allow TWF with small weapons in the off hand. Otherwise the PRE will be left to rot in a corner...
Well since it's a bard PRE the class will be left to rot... that's mostly where it is anyway. If you don't make the PRE appealing there's no point
into making it at all.

[Delacroix21]

If you keep the improvements to ability score damage . . . which I do think are very interesting . . . then I think you need to tone down the attack speed. It feels weird now arguing that this is too powerful after multiple pages going the other direction, but I'm pretty sure this is nuts.

I've been thinking about this a bit, and there are some incredibly broken builds that these feats would open up. It would be very good for swashbuckler bards, but positively insane for centered kensais with divine might, especially builds getting high crit profiles. A SWF Cetus variant using Mornh, running in LD with Pulverizer and Overwhelming Crit and Earth Stance, would just be incredible.

Actually you are wrong about your worries here, the ability score +200% should stay along with an extra boost. People are too enamel red with the x1 crit multi on 19-20 but that is actually significantly WEAKER than +1 crit range with thunder forged.


In fact, a thunder forged kukri out dps a thunder forged bastard sword and a thunder forged khopesh, and here's why.


Crippling flames and dragons edge add average 299 PER CRiT, which is HUGE. This makes TWF with high crit range weapons so much more powerful. The extra 4.5x1d6 of a bastard sword vs kukri does not match 10% more 299 damage procs (29 damage a swing).


Thunder forged weapons changed the game (and to a lesser extent dps augments), as many attacks per round is now king. For instance the thunder forged 5% reduce mob hp by 50% can average to be 2000 damage in epic elite, which is like adding 400 damage a swing. So naturally TWF pulls WAY ahead of SWF here.


Keep the ability score bonus at 200% and attack speed at 30%

[Tinco]

That made me wait and see what the feats were going to be.... now I know... they are weak.


Nah, they are not. Or to be more blunt: Less entitlement, more reading, please. Why exactly are you in the PC if your opinion regarding the whole thing as already set in stone? This has been kinda fruitful here, and the iterations of the tree and the feats look quite a bit better now.

[unbongwah]

will this work with crossbows and perhaps bows? ive got an arti with plenty extra feats
Why would you expect what's clearly a melee-oriented feat chain to work with ranged weapons? That's be like archers saying, "I hold my bow with two hands so I should totally get glancing blows from THF feats!"

I know why you want it: +30% atk speed and +200% attribute dmg. But that's not a rationale for giving it to you. ;)

[Ebondevil]

Just to be clear, this idea is perfectly sound, and we may have looooong range plans that may result in other ways to get proficiency. These dark & secret schemes do sometimes mean we avoid putting that same mini 'feature' out somewhere else earlier than we're hoping to do someday (and sometimes someday is a long way away).

/tease

Best place for it would likely be an Artificer based Epic Destiny which improved the Rune Arm for an Artificer and made it an option for other characters.

Also a Feat for Rune Arm use wouldn't be too unrealistic, though Rune Arm's damage being tied to Artificer levels does have a few issues of it's own which would need to be resolved IMO.

[Dilbon]

More of the issue for me is an empty offhand.
Whats that in your off hand?

Not a stat item.
Not a spell casting item.
Not something I can use an augment in.
Nothing.

So SHF has to make "nothing" look REALLY good, or its just going to be skipped over.


The only thing that would make it really good is evasion.

[A3oN95]

It will never be a replica since there is the off hand possibility. But right now regardless of what you equip in your offhand, as a SWFer you are strictly worse off. This would increase the power of the style and hence make viable a huge amount of builds.

The "x% Ability Score bonus to your damage" part is exactly the same as the THF uses. Isn't there anything that can be replaced in the feat to achieve a similar result power-wise, that's more in-flavour with a fencer/nimble kind of fighter? Crit range, or crit multiplier, or double-strike, or some combo of these?

I didn't do my math here, so I'm not sure what kind of values would be needed to make it on the same level with the ability score bonus to damage. But if it could be achieved, it would make a lot more sense for me, and would present the tradeoff I was talking about ealier. No "good strawberry ice-cream vs 'meh' strawberry ice-cream with chocolate chunks", but "good strawberry ice-cream vs good stracciatella ice-cream" instead.

[Scrabbler]

SWF + Orb
The SWF feat chain should probably work with Orbs equipped automatically, without having to train a special Swashbuckler icon to learn how.

That would make some logical sense, because an Orb is a very lightweight thing that you're just carrying in your hand without really using for something physical (the character only uses the Orb for a brief time when casting a spell). And it would help ensure that SWF has at least a small kind of niche for non-Bard characters: Wizards or Sorcerers who want some melee power, but without giving up an item slot for spellpower and crit.



SWF + Handwrap
Here's a weirder suggestion to think about. Suppose that having the SWF feat allows you to equip a Handwrap to your offhand while fighting with one weapon. That Handwrap would not be used for any attack rolls; it would simply sit there and grant any passive bonuses the item has, like Spellpower from a red slot or whatever.

Allowing that kind of passive Handwrap use would maintain the "look" of SWF, because the guy's left hand would still be conceptually as empty as a Monk's is. But it would help about balancing the loss of a body slot for gear.

[HatsuharuZ]

How about adding an enhancement to the Eldritch Knight Tree that lets them use SWF feats when wielding an orb?

[unbongwah]

The "x% Ability Score bonus to your damage" part is exactly the same as the THF uses.
OTOH, 2H weapons will still have higher base dmg, glancing blows, and at least +5 dmg from Power Atk vs SWF build.

Isn't there anything that can be replaced in the feat to achieve a similar result power-wise, that's more in-flavour with a fencer/nimble kind of fighter? Crit range, or crit multiplier, or double-strike, or some combo of these?
There are already crit bonuses in Swashbuckler and it looks like Turbine is trying to keep them out of the SWF/TWF/THF feats. I might suggest each SWF is worth some combination of +5% atk speed / +5% Doublestrike / -5% Fortification reduction / +0.5[W].

I still like my Deflect Melee idea, but perhaps thought should be separate from SWF feats. I'm just making it up as I go along. :o

[Scrabbler]

How about adding an enhancement to the Eldritch Knight Tree that lets them use SWF feats when wielding an orb?
It's true that the EK tree has an empty icon space sitting there at tier 1, but I don't see how it helps to add that limitation. Whether a Wizard has to pay 1-2 more AP to learn SWF+Orb compatibility makes only a little difference in builds, so it doesn't seem worth it for the devs to go through the effort of drawing a new icon and hooking it up. May as well just allow Orb use automatically.

[WiseFreelancer]

SWF + Orb
The SWF feat chain should probably work with Orbs equipped automatically, without having to train a special Swashbuckler icon to learn how.


They do (at least on the front page they do). All the Swashbuckler Orb enhancements do is allow you to Swashbuckle with one - the feats work regardless.

While I was initially uncomfortable with the flavour of extra ability score to damage in the revised feats, I am a fan for one very simple reason: it may make SWF a nice niche for non-strength to damage based melees. Sure, str will always be ahead of dex/cha/int (including for SWF), but attack speed and 200% dex might be more attractive than split stats and strength twf/thf for some builds if you aren't going in for Overwhelming Critical.

And when you consider the flavour of extra Dex to damage (or Cha, or Int) - well, I think it fits with more fencer style fighting nicely.

All the requests for more crit range/crit multipliers is fine, but I think people are forgetting how absurdly powerful those can get when multiplied up and using the right weapons. I can see why Turbine might not want to go there, and if its a choice between having those on SWF or having less limitations on future crit bonuses from other things, I think I'd take the latter.

Besides, more crit stuff just makes focusing on crits the stronger min/max path, and that means PA/Cleave/Great Cleave/OC. I'm not knocking that from a mechanical point of view, but I don't think it fits the flavour anyone is aiming for.

[BigErkyKid]

The "x% Ability Score bonus to your damage" part is exactly the same as the THF uses. Isn't there anything that can be replaced in the feat to achieve a similar result power-wise, that's more in-flavour with a fencer/nimble kind of fighter? Crit range, or crit multiplier, or double-strike, or some combo of these?

I didn't do my math here, so I'm not sure what kind of values would be needed to make it on the same level with the ability score bonus to damage. But if it could be achieved, it would make a lot more sense for me, and would present the tradeoff I was talking about ealier. No "good strawberry ice-cream vs 'meh' strawberry ice-cream with chocolate chunks", but "good strawberry ice-cream vs good stracciatella ice-cream" instead.

Well I think there is an issue of presentation. Since they introducedtogether bard tree and feats, we are biased to picture nimble agile fighters. But that's not necessarily the only sac fighter. How about armored dwarfs? The nimble stuff goes on the bard tree.

Now thinking of the a actual benefits of using only one weapon, what comes to my mind is a combination of momentum an accuracy, compared to two. Obviously less momentum than with a the weapon.

As you suggested, what makes the most sense to me in the case of a generalist safer is to give them around half the damage extra for momentum of a thfer and more accuracy, which is represented by the thread range.

Then, how much of those two would have to be balanced according to the power or versatility of what you could equip in the off hand. This is the tricky part I think.

Realistically speaking, if we restrict rune arms, as it seams that they want to do, the only think you can have in the off hand is a shield. So you need to weight the damage equivalent value of the shield. A defense of 30 per, how much damage is it worth? That sort of stuff.

As it stands, and if I read it correctly, speed increase is strictly equivalent to a damage increase of the same magnitude. Correct me if I am wrong. So a total increase of 30 speed as they have, plus the damage, they should recompile using crit ranges and less str to damage.

Otherwise I agree that in terms of dps the current proposal might be sound, and I think it is, but flavor or realism wise might not make full sense.

Thoughts?

[Nightmanis]

Probably they noticed that Shield builds already spent a lot of feats on Shield stuff. Allowing SWF to work with shields would benefit Fighter Defenders, but Paladin Defenders couldn't take it along with their normal things.

It's balanced in that respect. There is only 2 weapons that will simultaneously benefit from the SWF and THF feats, let alone the Shield feats. That's Celestia and Sun Blade. It might be considered OP to have 3 Bard levels to make Celestia a 15-20/x3 weapon with an ungodly amount of Doublestrike, you spent 3 feats on SWF for that full benefit, 3 Feats on THF for the glancing blows, 3 Feats on Cleaves (if you're not cleaving with a shield, you're doing it wrong) and then 3-4 Feats for a shield (SM, ISM, ISB, Deflection). That's 12-13 feats, not including IC:Pierce to use a single weapon that's not optimal for all encounters. Plus you have to use a buckler, of which finding a good one is nearly impossible.

What is interesting is making a 14 Fighter/3 Bard/3 FVS to take full advantage of Block and Cut, Power Surge, Divine Might, Shield of Condemnation, and Swashbuckler (assuming you can have SD stance active at the same time).



Well, the +12 Reflex is in Swashbuckler to make up for how Bards can never get Divine Grace. It might be interesting if the Swashbuckler reflex was changed from a flat +12 into your Charisma Mod...

Also notice that Rogue and Monk don't need as much Reflex, because they have Imp Evasion and Swashbuckler only gives regular.

This is 100% balanaced because now you're locked into Swashbuckler for tier 5's. It will be interesting to see a 16 Bard 2 Fighter 2 Rogue SWF build when all is said and done that utilizes this.

[Scrabbler]

There is only 2 weapons that will simultaneously benefit from the SWF and THF feats, let alone the Shield feats. That's Celestia and Sun Blade.
Nothing in the current plan for SWF feats says they won't work on regular Bastard and Waraxe.

[gurgar78]

Nothing in the current plan for SWF feats says they won't work on regular Bastard and Waraxe.

Celestia, Sunblade and Star of Day are, however, the only weapons which can use both sets of feats and still enable you to use the swashbuckling stance.

I think that's what people are getting confused by.

[Flavilandile]

Nah, they are not. Or to be more blunt: Less entitlement, more reading, please. Why exactly are you in the PC if your opinion regarding the whole thing as already set in stone? This has been kinda fruitful here, and the iterations of the tree and the feats look quite a bit better now.

My opinion is not set in stone... And I'm not wasting my time reading 400 posts of stuff.

We ( the PC ) have been asked to refrain from posting during the first few days when something we talked about is released. By the time we are free to post, things might have evolved.
As such my opinion as I posted it is what I thought of the idea, based on the first post and my knowledge of the idea from before that first post.
I didn't not read the whole thread, and I have no intention of wasting several hours to do it. That's the problem with the restriction as it has been set for us.

[Hilltrot]

My opinion is not set in stone... And I'm not wasting my time reading 400 posts of stuff.

We ( the PC ) have been asked to refrain from posting during the first few days when something we talked about is released. By the time we are free to post, things might have evolved.
As such my opinion as I posted it is what I thought of the idea, based on the first post and my knowledge of the idea from before that first post.
I didn't not read the whole thread, and I have no intention of wasting several hours to do it. That's the problem with the restriction as it has been set for us.

It takes you several hours to read 20 pages?? How about make 3,000 posts?

Don't exaggerate (lie) just to make a point. If you just don't want to read 20 pages - that's fine. I don't think you're being paid to do it. . . .

But I do hope someone at Turbine actually looks at this. Especially, when they start a thread on the forum and make it seem like they are actually interested.

[Flavilandile]

It takes you several hours to read 20 pages?? .

L'Anglais n'est pas ma langue maternelle. Donc oui ca peut prendre beaucoup de temps de lire 300 messages.

English is not my birth language, so yes it can take a lot of time to read 300 messages.

[Coyopa]

L'Anglais n'est pas ma langue maternelle. Donc oui ca peut prendre beaucoup de temps de lire 300 messages.

English is not my birth language, so yes it can take a lot of time to read 300 messages.

English is my birth language and it would still take me quite a while to read 300 messages. So, I don't blame you for not doing so - at all!

[Ebondevil]

L'Anglais n'est pas ma langue maternelle. Donc oui ca peut prendre beaucoup de temps de lire 300 messages.

English is not my birth language, so yes it can take a lot of time to read 300 messages.

I would suggest you skim the Dev tracker to keep appraised of the Dev posts regarding the subject, it can get you up to speed quicker on updates/changes, less need to read the whole thread that way.

At least that's what I do, and then I skim back to review relevant posts if needed.

[HatsuharuZ]

I would suggest you skim the Dev tracker to keep appraised of the Dev posts regarding the subject, it can get you up to speed quicker on updates/changes, less need to read the whole thread that way.

At least that's what I do, and then I skim back to review relevant posts if needed.

Same here. Sometimes it's hard to read every post when there is so much HATE going on. I can't imagine what it's like for Cordovan...

[Nédime]

My opinion is not set in stone... And I'm not wasting my time reading 400 posts of stuff.

We ( the PC ) have been asked to refrain from posting during the first few days when something we talked about is released. By the time we are free to post, things might have evolved.
As such my opinion as I posted it is what I thought of the idea, based on the first post and my knowledge of the idea from before that first post.
I didn't not read the whole thread, and I have no intention of wasting several hours to do it. That's the problem with the restriction as it has been set for us.

Juger un sujet de 20 pages d'après le premier post ... Surtout quand la discussion a été aussi intense, et argumentée par des calculs plutôt poussés.
Judge a 20 pages subject from the first post ...Especially when the discussion has been intense with solid maths to set one's arguments.

Pour résumer les dons ont beaucoup évolué, passant de "inutiles" ?* "globalement satisfaisants". L'arbre de compétences est encore ?* l'étude, ainsi que la possibilité d'avoir certains dons gratuitement comme pour le ranger avec les dons de combat ?* deux armes.

To sum it up feats have evolved much from "worthless" to "globally satisfying". The PrE is still in discussion, and so is the possibility to have some of the SWF feats for free as do rangers do with 2WF.

[BigErkyKid]

Juger un sujet de 20 pages d'après le premier post ... Surtout quand la discussion a été aussi intense, et argumentée par des calculs plutôt poussés.
Judge a 20 pages subject from the first post ...Especially when the discussion has been intense with solid maths to set one's arguments.

Pour résumer les dons ont beaucoup évolué, passant de "inutiles" ?* "globalement satisfaisants". L'arbre de compétences est encore ?* l'étude, ainsi que la possibilité d'avoir certains dons gratuitement comme pour le ranger avec les dons de combat ?* deux armes.

To sum it up feats have evolved much from "worthless" to "globally satisfying". The PrE is still in discussion, and so is the possibility to have some of the SWF feats for free as do rangers do with 2WF.


To be fair, Varg should have posted his update in the first post. Otherwise it gets lost.

[azrael4h]

To be fair, Varg should have posted his update in the first post. Otherwise it gets lost.

This makes too much sense, therefore no.


/sarcasm

[Steiner-Davion]

Hi! We're presenting some updates for Swashbuckler, and our current ideas for Single-Weapon Fighting Feats.

We've tried to balance these feats against THF and TWF. We feel these will scale well into higher levels, as these bonuses from Single Weapon Fighting are multiplied by higher +(W) weapons. Our current plan allows these feats to work alongside Two-Handed Fighting if you are using a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe. Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.

Internally, we're discussing longer-range possibilities to address some issues with shield builds and thrown builds, which aren't covered by Single Weapon Fighting (except for Swashbuckler's exception where they can use bucklers with SWF).


Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.

Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d10 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (Example: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 2 ranks of Balance


Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +4 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d12 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 4 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +6


Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Improved Single Weapon Fighting increases to +6 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d14 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 7 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +11

While these maybe nice, it completely ignores the fact that single weapon fighting will always generate less attacks per second that either TWF or THF, and as a result will always be inferior.
These feats should increase the base attack speed while only using a weapon in your main hand, and either an empty off hand, or a non-weapon in the off hand.

Others have done the math countless times to show how many attacks are generated by each fighting style, so I won't bother trying to recreate it here.

Once attack speed has been increased, we can begin to look at any additional changes, such as the ones you have proposed.

[Scrabbler]

These feats should increase the base attack speed while only using a weapon in your main hand, and either an empty off hand, or a non-weapon in the off hand.
The attack speed bonus from GSWF is 30%.

[BigErkyKid]

While these maybe nice, it completely ignores the fact that single weapon fighting will always generate less attacks per second that either TWF or THF, and as a result will always be inferior.
These feats should increase the base attack speed while only using a weapon in your main hand, and either an empty off hand, or a non-weapon in the off hand.

Others have done the math countless times to show how many attacks are generated by each fighting style, so I won't bother trying to recreate it here.

Once attack speed has been increased, we can begin to look at any additional changes, such as the ones you have proposed.

You have missed the last update. They decided to go with increasing speed now. Check it up.

[Nightmanis]

Celestia, Sunblade and Star of Day are, however, the only weapons which can use both sets of feats and still enable you to use the swashbuckling stance.

I think that's what people are getting confused by.

Does the actual Star of Day work as well? I've never had one so I wouldn't know.

But yes, these are the only weapons that will benefit from both. Bastard Swords coded to be short swords.

[Chai]

It's balanced in that respect. There is only 2 weapons that will simultaneously benefit from the SWF and THF feats, let alone the Shield feats. That's Celestia and Sun Blade. It might be considered OP to have 3 Bard levels to make Celestia a 15-20/x3 weapon with an ungodly amount of Doublestrike, you spent 3 feats on SWF for that full benefit, 3 Feats on THF for the glancing blows, 3 Feats on Cleaves (if you're not cleaving with a shield, you're doing it wrong) and then 3-4 Feats for a shield (SM, ISM, ISB, Deflection). That's 12-13 feats, not including IC:Pierce to use a single weapon that's not optimal for all encounters. Plus you have to use a buckler, of which finding a good one is nearly impossible.

What is interesting is making a 14 Fighter/3 Bard/3 FVS to take full advantage of Block and Cut, Power Surge, Divine Might, Shield of Condemnation, and Swashbuckler (assuming you can have SD stance active at the same time).




This is 100% balanaced because now you're locked into Swashbuckler for tier 5's. It will be interesting to see a 16 Bard 2 Fighter 2 Rogue SWF build when all is said and done that utilizes this.

Celestia and sunblade are coded short swords which are higher base damage, and in their flavor text, they are described as bastard swords light enough to be short swords.

[Silken-Akira]

It takes you several hours to read 20 pages?? How about make 3,000 posts?

Don't exaggerate (lie) just to make a point. If you just don't want to read 20 pages - that's fine. I don't think you're being paid to do it. . . .

But I do hope someone at Turbine actually looks at this. Especially, when they start a thread on the forum and make it seem like they are actually interested.

Actually English not being my mother language too and although I speak and understand it just fine it still is much. In the early time of this thread I tried to kind of sum up the most common opinions but this thread just moves too much at some times.
what would be great actually is that turbine would some up what they see as the most occurring opinions and list them up in reply then. Even when they don't have answers for some of them yet that would be fine, but show us that they do see what we say and understand this.
For us it would give the benefit that when we see that they understand us wrongly we can react to it, or when it is voiced only by a few, but a lot and the majority didn't bother or don't agree we have a chance to balance that opinion out.

that way you indeed only need to start from one of the latest dev track responses to that thread.

[Khatzhas]

Celestia and sunblade are coded short swords which are higher base damage, and in their flavor text, they are described as bastard swords light enough to be short swords.
Is it just flavour text though? Or are they actually coded as bastard swords in terms of glancing blows etc?

[geoffhanna]

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


I've been thinking about all this over the weekend, and I eventually decided this is still not right. Not because the melee bonuses are bad, they are not, they will appeal to many character types that do not want to be STR builds (or even DEX builds) and that is pretty cool.

But I think it may be short-sighted to focus on melee capabilities in the first place. I think SWF would be better served providing non-melee stuff like Dodge, to make it truly distinct from THF, TWF and S&B. You have to give SWF a dab of melee capability to give it better DPS than S&B, but stop there, and go in a different direction.

You've already specified that you are avoiding Dodge (dodging Dodge?) on purpose for armor-based reasons, so instead, what about something like this:


SWF: +1 Style bonus to weapon enhancement, +1% Style bonus to double strike, +5% Style bonus to Concealment
ISWF: +1 Style bonus to weapon enhancement, +1% Style bonus to double strike, +5% Style bonus to Concealment
GSWF: +2 Style bonus to weapon enhancement, +2% Style bonus to double strike, +10% Style bonus to Concealment


??

Even if you disagree with the specific suggestion (maybe Concealment is bad for another reason?), the approach of adding a little melee capability plus a lot of defense gives every weapon style a distinct reason to exist.

Imagine that each weapon style was ranked for damage per hit, attack speed, and defenses, and that each style had a distinct ranking in each of those variables:


http://www.gamergeoff.com/images/2014-05/swf graph.png
Rankings do not attempt to quantify the values of these attributes, just a relative weighting.
For instance THF damage per attack is much higher than any other style but in this ranking is
only one higher. Similarly S&B defenses are much better than any other. Etc.

TWF still looks pretty attractive. But everything else has it's arguments too; it is harder to say which is "best" and easier to say which is better for specific situations and character types.

Which is what we want, right? Choices? Viable choices?

[Steiner-Davion]

Tier Two[/B]

[LIST=1]
En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make two attacks with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs 10 Spell Points to activate.

Is there a minimum critical multiplier in place? I can see a couple of instances where a -1 Critical Multiplier, would result in a 1X crtical multiplier, which is no longer a critical hit.

[Steiner-Davion]

Tier Three[/B]


Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
Swashbuckling Style (Multiselector)
[LIST=1]
Dashing Scoundrel: Passive: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Attack Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
Skirmisher: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge, and you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats.
Arcane Marauder: Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training (or the Spellsinger enhancement equivalent).
Cannoneer: (Requires Runearm Proficiency feat): Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities).

For Skirmisher, I think it would be best if you had the option to equip a buckler in your off hand, to gain the bonus to dodge, in the off chance that you did not want Dashing Scoundrel.

[/quote]
Tier Four[/B]

[LIST=1]
Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.[/quote]

This ability becomes completely useless once you start facing monsters that have Damage Reduction. 1 dmg instantly becomes 0, thus negating the effects of this ability. Either increase the damage output of this ability so that it has a chance to bypass most levels of DR, or make it so that it is not effected by DR.

[quote]

[Rull]

W[+3] damage is far too weak
200% damage and 30% attack speed is probably too strong

While reading these 20+ pages, i'm wondering, why are you so desperately trying to balance another fighting line between the two excisting lines like this? since it serves pretty much the same purpose as TWF (single target, no defense). No matter how hard you try to do the balancing, one will turn out better and the other hardly used.

Have you considered another approach, where you take a different approach on the depth of the style instead?
Where SWF is better than TWF but gSWF is worse than gTWF?

For all I care you don't even make iSWF and gSWF. You just make a single SWF feat which will fill a niche for feat-starved builds and is almost as good as TWF, iTWF and gTWF combined, but not quite as strong.

I know there is value in the whole X/iX/gX thing to make it recognizeable as a style, but you could vary from this and still have a weapon style even without that template.

[Steiner-Davion]

How I would want to implement the SWF feats:

Single Weapon Fighting: while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%. You also gain the Deflect Melee feat. [Every time you are about to be struck with a melee attack and are not helpless, there is a 5% chance of parrying that attack, taking no damage. This effect can proc once every 6 seconds.] In addition, if your offhand is:

Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat.
Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance.


Improved Single Weapon Fighting (reqs BAB 6 & SWF): while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5% (stacks w/SWF bonus). Your Deflect Melee feat gains an additional +5% parrying chance and can now proc once every 4 seconds. In addition, if your offhand is:

Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat.
Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance.


Greater Single Weapon Fighting (reqs BAB 11, SWF, and ISWF): while you have a 1H melee weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your offhand, you gain +5% Doublestrike. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5% (stacks w/ISWF bonus). Your Deflect Melee feat gains an additional +5% parrying chance and can now proc once every 2 seconds. In addition, if your offhand is:

Empty: you gain +0.5[W] modifier and Vorpal property to your main-hand weapon. If Precision is active, you reduce your target's fortification by an additional 5%.
Shield: You gain an additional +5% parrying chance to your Deflect Melee feat. You also gain the Counterattack ability: if you successfully parry a melee attack, you have a 5% chance of making an immediate counterattack on your attacker with a -5 to-hit penalty.
Orb or Runearm: +10 Universal Spellpower and +1% spell crit chance. You also gain a 5% Enhancement discount to the Spell Point cost of all your spells. [Does not stack with other Enhancement discounts such as Amauntor's Blessing.]


So if you have GSWF, then your bonuses based on your offhand are:



Empty: +15% doublestrike, -30% Fortification w/Precision, 15% Deflect Melee chance, +1.5[W], Vorpal
Shield: +15% doublestrike, -15% Fortification w/Precision, 30% Deflect Melee chance, Counterattack
Orb or Runearm: +15% doublestrike, -15% Fortification w/Precision, 15% Deflect Melee chance, +30 Universal Spellpower, +3% spell crit chance, -5% SP cost to all spells


I tried to include something interesting in GSWF for each offhand option. I made the numbers up; I'm sure it would take plenty of testing to decide if they should be tweaked higher or lower. I did NOT want it to depend on what armor you wear; and I wanted to keep it compatible with S&B. I also wanted it to be setup so your bonuses change based on what's in your offhand; i.e., keep it empty when you're trying to max out your melee DPS, swap in a shield if you need to fight defensively for a while, swap in an orb if you need a caster boost.

Swashbuckling has stricter restrictions than SWF, such as light armor and Finessable weapons, but adds extra bonuses, which seems reasonable. A conventional S&B toon could benefit from SWF (for doublestrike & defensive bonuses), THF (glancing blows), and Shield Mastery (doublestrike & PRR) if they can afford that many feats. While a battlecaster might want SWF for Deflect Melee + caster bonuses.

Something along these lines is much better then what was initially offered. Though, I think an increase to base attack speed would be in order as well.

Of course, my biggest concern with these feats as they are currently proposed by Turbine, is that they cost Feats. If you want to be a melee based character, and are not a Pure or mostly pure fighter, you are going to be Feat Starved.The only exception being Rangers, because they get the TWF feat line for free. Paladin, Monks, Bards, Rogues, Clerics, Favored Souls, even Druids have only 7 standard Feat options at the Heroic Levels. If you factor in any useful feats for your Class (ex Metamagics for Caster type classes: Bards, Clerics, Favored Souls and Druids), then you start loosing available feats very very quickly.

As a result, the current proposal by Turbine is woefully inadequate, in terms of being forced to choose, because their is no choice at all.

Unbongwah's proposal at least starts to make me have the internal discussion about is it worth the trade off.

I think another solution to this portion of the problem would be to give Paladins and Bards these feats for free as they level up, similar to Rangers and their TWF line. Monks, Druids and Rogues generally do not have the type of problems that these two classes have when it comes to Melee dps capabilities.

[Khatzhas]

I think another solution to this portion of the problem would be to give Paladins and Bards these feats for free as they level up, similar to Rangers and their TWF line. Monks, Druids and Rogues generally do not have the type of problems that these two classes have when it comes to Melee dps capabilities. Doesn't that rather defeat the point of Fighters though?

For class abilities, they don't get spell progression, special abilities, healing, skill points or whatever. They get feats. Their ability to take for example the shield and the THF feats that another class might have to choose between is their class ability.

If other classes start demanding all of the feats that they might want to use as auto-grants, as well as retaining their own class ability progression, what do Fighters have that sets them apart?

[Caprice]

Just to be clear, this idea is perfectly sound, and we may have looooong range plans that may result in other ways to get proficiency. These dark & secret schemes do sometimes mean we avoid putting that same mini 'feature' out somewhere else earlier than we're hoping to do someday (and sometimes someday is a long way away).

/tease
I would argue that this can be a shortsighted approach at times. Why limit the effectiveness of a class right now just because you intend to introduce a new feature in 12-18 months that will make it irrelevant? Obviously context matters for each decision, but development is always slower than anticipated - that's not a dig at you & Turbine, I've worked in software development for most of my career and it's the same almost everywhere and every time - and we all have to assume that whatever you are teasing is not going to be coming for a loooooong time and may be scrapped before it ever does see the light of day. Why not put in a stopgap now and remove it later if necessary when (if!) the new feature does get developed?

As for this specific case of runearm proficiency, considering that runearm damage scales with Artificer levels rather steeply I feel the proficiency is not going to be that powerful anyway to a Bard. Let's assume you are using a EE Corruption of Nature (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Corruption_of_Nature_(Level_24)) since that's one of the few viable endgame options right now and it includes its own spellpower. For base damage, tier 1 does 4-10 damage + 1d2 per Artificer level, and tier 5 does 8-30 + 1d10 per Artificer level, and has 114 Acid spellpower baked in to improve that. By my napkin math and excluding crits etc., with zero Artificer levels this mean an average of 15 damage at tier 1 and an average of 41 damage at tier 5, whereas a pure Artificer does an average of 80 damage at tier 1 and 276 at tier 5, which is 5 to 7 times as much damage for the same time spent charging. The zero Artificer damage going to be less than a weapon swing even at tier 5, so it's not exactly amazing. And that's not including the enhancements an Artificer gets to make the runearm better, such as faster charging, a shorter CD after discharging, higher stable charge tier while moving, and for the tier 5 enhancement no movement speed penalty, as well as crit enhancements from AT, all of which are important to making runearm damage interesting.

So for a pure Bard the value lies almost entirely in the +2d10ish(endgame runearm) +1d6(SB enhancement) imbue damage. That is pretty decent damage per strike, but to get it you are also giving up the CC effects and DPS or survivability bonuses SB grants if you use an empty offhand or buckler.

Based on the above I have a hard time seeing it as overpowered to offer runearm proficiency now as a chooseable feat or high-tier Bard enhancement and then change that as necessary down the road when your teaser becomes a reality.

[Stoner81]

Hmm...

Hmm...

Hmm...

Sounds like maybe a new class?
What class would you throw runearms proficiency onto?

Would a warlock be appropriate?
Seems like there was a arcane rogue type somewhere as well?
Or would it need to b

Gnome War Technician :) or something along those lines.

Stoner81.

[Steiner-Davion]

I think a lot of good feed back is getting lost here when people try to provide feed back on both SWF and the Swashbuckler PrE at the same time and in the same place.

That being said, since the majority of this thread is about the SWF feats:

Dev's I have a couple of questions for you:
1) What do you envision a Single Weapon Fighting practitioner to be? What are they great at? What are their weaknesses?

2) What was your inspiration for the idea of a Single Weapon Fighting style practitioner?


Feel free to answer these two basic questions in another/new thread, if you like. But, once we have a good understanding of the general direction you are wanting to take this fighting style, I think we can better hone in on what is appropriate and attractive enough to make tough character design choices. And some of those options have been presented in this thread, and the original.

Finally, once "we" have developed and/or finalized the SWF feat(s), we can look at how to develop the Swashbuckler PrE, to build on top of that/those feats. Trying to do both at the same time will not result in better products.

[Steiner-Davion]

I think there may be a bug with feats doing +1[W], so they need something else. Which makes me wonder, with swf, what if you put your weapon in your offhand slot and nothing in your main hand? Shouldn't it work like normal swings, or does it always treat one hand as main and the other as off (right and left respectively)?


I think for ease of coding purposes, every character in DDO, is right handed, and the right hand is the main hand. And the left hand is the off hand.

Well if you put a weapon into a weapon a blank weapon set slot, it automatically assigns it you your main hand.

If you have nothing in your hands at all, and you have an weapon on your hot bar, and you click on the hotbar location, it is automatically, equipped to your main hand.


All that being said, I think if you have a 2 item weapon set, and have a weapon in your off hand, if you then remove the item from the main hand (whatever item you put into the weapon set first, other than a shield or bow, or xbow) from your inventory, and you activate the weapon set (such as through your hot bar), the weapon remains in your off hand and you punch with your main hand when attacking.

I must admit, I haven't purposely done this, nor have I done it recently, but I believe this is what I've noticed.

[Seikojin]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

Much better. Despite me thinking we shouldn't have 3 feats, I am much happier with this than the damage boosting since this will bring in less bugs.

[Steiner-Davion]

As I have replied to you in 2 previous posts, their proposed version doesn't add directly to base damage. It is multiplied by a large factor (the [W] multiplier) before being added to the base.



I think I am conflating them much less than you are. I put together a fairly complicated model actually showing the damage done per swing with the new feats with an example character, completely ignoring any enhancement.

Your proposed feats only have any value for a character who wants to use a single weapon and CHA or DEX to damage. Who would want that but a swashbuckler bard?

A Paladin for starters.



I think the SWF feats need to be balanced completely outside the context of a bard, so I don't think CHA/DEX to damage should be part of the equation.
Isn't Geoffhanna saying that SWF should be balanced outside of swashbuckling Bards too?

[Steiner-Davion]

We've been shying away from putting (much) Dodge into these feats because we want to allow for the possibility of using these feats with Heavy Armor (which we also want to make more functional, longer-term).


Wouldn't this be mitigated by the fact that Heavy Armor severely limits your Max Dodge? Or is that the reason why you are shying away from it?

Though, thematically, I think it is the right call. The "Swashbuckler" should be getting the increase to dodge.

So, I guess that being said, what about a counter attack/riposte or parry type affect? Parrying, being my preferred choice.

[Steiner-Davion]

Unless I msissed some thingl - Monks need to be lawful - bards chatoic - you can't mix thse two classes.... (or Pally)...

Bards - Neutral.

Monks - Lawful

Paladins - Lawful Awful ... I mean good, Lawful Good.

[Steiner-Davion]

The attack speed bonus from GSWF is 30%.



You have missed the last update. They decided to go with increasing speed now. Check it up.


Yeap, missed the update buried in the middle of 20 pages. Posted this as soon as I saw the update thread, as I wanted ot ensure that it was captured from my original comment in the original thread( or was it in response to GeoffHanna's blog post?)

[Rull]

Is there a minimum critical multiplier in place? I can see a couple of instances where a -1 Critical Multiplier, would result in a 1X crtical multiplier, which is no longer a critical hit.

Well, it would still be a crit in terms of adding seeker to you normal damage.
And adding a stack to Celestial Champion.

It would also cause an array out of bound exception since there is no entry for a x1 crit modifier in the Holy Burst table, bringing down the server every time a burst goes off. Or causing it to loop around back to 65535 D6 holy damage. But both are minor details :D

[Steiner-Davion]

Doesn't that rather defeat the point of Fighters though?

For class abilities, they don't get spell progression, special abilities, healing, skill points or whatever. They get feats. Their ability to take for example the shield and the THF feats that another class might have to choose between is their class ability.

If other classes start demanding all of the feats that they might want to use as auto-grants, as well as retaining their own class ability progression, what do Fighters have that sets them apart?

All valid questions, of which answers I do not have at the moment. I merely posted that suggestion as a means to help bolster the 2 classes that need the most help.

[Silverleafeon]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

Thank for listening to feedback.
Bumping new to back so all can see.

[Dilbon]

Make GSWF grant evasion when offhand is empty. That would make the style interesting. Also swashbuckler bards would then have a choice of getting evasion as a feat or as a capstone and not everyone would choose to wield either a buckler or an orb in offhand.

Also if evasion feels too strong make it require tumble ranks or something.

[Steiner-Davion]

Make GSWF grant evasion when offhand is empty. That would make the style interesting. Also swashbuckler bards would then have a choice of getting evasion as a feat or as a capstone and not everyone would choose to wield either a buckler or an orb in offhand.

Also if evasion feels too strong make it require tumble ranks or something.

Just throwing this out there, but what if you already have Evasion? (Think Rogue splash for instance) Would it then grant Improved Evasion? I don't think that would be overpowered due to the investment of three feats to get it.

[Dilbon]

Just throwing this out there, but what if you already have Evasion? (Think Rogue splash for instance) Would it then grant Improved Evasion? I don't think that would be overpowered due to the investment of three feats to get it.

I guess one source of evasion would be wasted then. But instead of two levels of rogue one would need to take just one.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I really like the tier 5 ability Thread the Needle because it sort of combines Power Attack and Precision into one stance. It's a strong incentive to go into tier 5 in the tree. I think it would be even better if it benefited from extra Power Attack modifications like Heavy Draw in the Deepwood Stalker tree does. Since the idea seems to be to stay in the Precision stance and not sacrifice the damage from Power Attack, it would benefit Half Orcs and Barbarian splashed Bards to incorporate the extra Power Attack modifications they get, otherwise Thread the Needle because much less of a draw for them.

[gurgar78]

Is there a minimum critical multiplier in place? I can see a couple of instances where a -1 Critical Multiplier, would result in a 1X crtical multiplier, which is no longer a critical hit.

One of the benefits of the Swashbuckling stance is that it increases the crit multiplier on all of those light weapons to at least x3 if they are lower.

So you will always get at least x2 with En Pointe.

I think En Pointe is fine. Two attacks that are nearly guaranteed to be critical hits for at least x2 damage.

[gurgar78]

I really like the tier 5 ability Thread the Needle because it sort of combines Power Attack and Precision into one stance. It's a strong incentive to go into tier 5 in the tree. I think it would be even better if it benefited from extra Power Attack modifications like Heavy Draw in the Deepwood Stalker tree does. Since the idea seems to be to stay in the Precision stance and not sacrifice the damage from Power Attack, it would benefit Half Orcs and Barbarian splashed Bards to incorporate the extra Power Attack modifications they get, otherwise Thread the Needle because much less of a draw for them.

Remember that you're still getting the benefits of the precision feat itself in addition to the +5 damage. I think it's probably fine the way it is. Barbie Bards can save a few AP in their Barb tree and still get a pretty potent combat stance.

[Caprice]

Doesn't that rather defeat the point of Fighters though?

For class abilities, they don't get spell progression, special abilities, healing, skill points or whatever. They get feats. Their ability to take for example the shield and the THF feats that another class might have to choose between is their class ability.

If other classes start demanding all of the feats that they might want to use as auto-grants, as well as retaining their own class ability progression, what do Fighters have that sets them apart?
I don't think the feats should be autogranted to Bards, as feats should impose a meaningful choice between effectiveness in various roles. Currently a Bard has to choose between melee effectiveness and casting effectiveness and there is some balance in that (although both sides could use some help right now, above and beyond what SB brings). I think the game would be more boring if you didn't have any such constraints.

In addition, granting the feats would tend to force players into a particular play style. Currently a Bard can be effective at either THF or TWF (or ranged, or support) depending on their choices, but just as THF Rangers are almost unheard of, auto-granting the SWF feats to Bards would mean that THF and TWF Bards would disappear over time. Only serious flavor players will spend 3 feats on a marginal or zero power increase.

However I'll also say that Fighter is already a powerful and popular class choice as both a primary class and as a splash at all levels of the game, including notable EE builds (e.g. Cetus (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433254-Cetus-The-Supreme-Bladeforged-Fighter)), and I can't imagine that giving a bit of relief to other classes would undercut that noticeably. The wide range of bonus feats is important to many builds and the Kensai tree is one of the strongest PrEs. The relative weakness of the Bard PrEs alone means that it will never be a popular splash. Paladin is a bit trickier to call because the class is not in a strong spot at higher levels, but it is already one of the 2 most popular endgame splashes because Divine Grace is unique and uniquely powerful. I feel that the game needs to disincentivize Paladin splashes in favor of making deep Paladin more interesting, rather than doubling down on the effectiveness of the splash.

[Blayster]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.
This is OP. Too OP. Please, nerf this and add armor piercing instead.

[Caprice]

One of the benefits of the Swashbuckling stance is that it increases the crit multiplier on all of those light weapons to at least x3 if they are lower.

So you will always get at least x2 with En Pointe.

I think En Pointe is fine. Two attacks that are nearly guaranteed to be critical hits for at least x2 damage.
Technically En Pointe does not appear to require the Swashbuckling stance, so you may be using a x2 weapon. However you still get 2 attacks and hopefully any on crit procs would still go off, for extra damage from Seeker and Burst effects (IIUC the latter depend on base crit multiplier, not adjusted), stacking the Advancing Blows buff from LD or DC's Purification debuff, etc., so it might still be situationally useful even for x2 weapons outside of the Swashbuckling stance.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Remember that you're still getting the benefits of the precision feat itself in addition to the +5 damage. I think it's probably fine the way it is. Barbie Bards can save a few AP in their Barb tree and still get a pretty potent combat stance.

Since giving up spell casting when raging is too much of a sacrifice for a spell casting class (or any class for that matter), there are currently three reasons to splash Barbarian into Bard, in my opinion. One is to get the extra Power Attack damage, one is to get extra action boosts, and the other is to get an additional cleave attack. If you lose the additional Power Attack damage, then I believe there aren't enough incentives to justify splashing Barbarian into a Swashbuckler build. The same logic applies to Half Orc.

As for saving AP, nobody who plays this game is going to view losing three damage but saving four enhancement points as a win for them.

The idea is to make as many class and race combinations as possible valid to continue the trend of uber customization in DDO. Adding in Power Attack bonuses just means that Horcs and Barb splashes are valid options for Tier 5 Swashbucklers. It wouldn't overpower them in any way and I personally wouldn't roll such a character, but it does expand build options, which is a good thing if done within reason.

[Vargouille]

Since I don't think we addressed it: We're letting you continue to Swashbuckle with a scroll or wand.


Yeah I thought of that...but odds are if you're building for Swashbuckler, you're not building for casting. It seems an "either-or" proposition to me, considering the SWF feat reqs you mentioned. Anyone built for proper Swashbuckling is not going to be built for CC casting, they just wont have the DCs and metas to make it work.

We do intend that the feats are presenting some layer of choice for most players. We also recognize that Action Points also represent a choice.


The SWF feat chain should probably work with Orbs equipped automatically, without having to train a special Swashbuckler icon to learn how.

We agree. The current plan is that SWF Feats with orbs don't care about the existence of Swashbucklers.


1) What do you envision a Single Weapon Fighting practitioner to be? What are they great at? What are their weaknesses?
Really, the primary goal is to support players who envision themselves as fighting with a single weapon. Also very important is trying to develop a distinct playstyle such as THF or TWF as much as we can (which is probably the more difficult part).


2) What was your inspiration for the idea of a Single Weapon Fighting style practitioner?
For Swashbucklers, it's the Musketeers. But it need not be limited to that.


I would argue that this can be a shortsighted approach at times. Why limit the effectiveness of a class right now just because you intend to introduce a new feature in 12-18 months that will make it irrelevant?

(...)

As for this specific case of runearm proficiency, considering that runearm damage scales with Artificer levels rather steeply I feel the proficiency is not going to be that powerful anyway to a Bard.

(...)

Based on the above I have a hard time seeing it as overpowered to offer runearm proficiency now as a chooseable feat or high-tier Bard enhancement and then change that as necessary down the road when your teaser becomes a reality.

This is not a balance concern, but rather a decision and build-making concern. Runearms represent a different style of play currently restricted to artificers. We could, for instance, let anyone take a pet feat to give them a pet similar to Druids or Artificers, but that would make those classes less unique and interesting, and give less reason for taking them. There are some level of balance concerns involved, but this is an area where we feel that the reasonable default is to keep this limited to one class to keep it special. We'd consider the onus on the other side of the argument: Convince us why DDO is a better game when everyone can get Runearms with a single feat choice.


Wouldn't this be mitigated by the fact that Heavy Armor severely limits your Max Dodge? Or is that the reason why you are shying away from it?

This is why we're shying away.

We want Single Weapon Fighting feats to be viable and feel good for Heavy Armor builds, which means we don't want to add large amounts of Dodge into those feats, since much of that would end up wasted for those builds. We know that there's not necessarily obvious synergies SWF Heavy Armor Builds, but if you envision yourself as a Kensei in heavy armor with a single weapon, you shouldn't feel bad for playing that build. There's some other trees like Kensei that contain a good amount of combat-style agnostic abilities (or that aren't significantly better for TWF or THF, for instance), such as Occult Slayer, Eldritch Knight, and Warpriest (some of which support some other options, such as shield use, but a SWF is fairly conceivable).

While Swashbuckler contains more explicit support for SWF, using SWF with other trees should generally feel pretty good, unless it's something like Tempest that clearly caters to another combat style. And even then there's already some discussions about turning Scimitars into light weapons for use with Swashbuckler.

[Mryal]

SWF is the new thing here. We wanted to give both you and us more time to discuss possibilities, rather than diverting discussion before many players had even seen the thread.

Now that more than one day has passed, we've explored yet more options (both here on the forums, and with internal design discussions and technical testing), here's an option we're exploring for SWF Feats, for the bonuses:

SWF: +10% Attack Speed (stacking)
ISWF: Upgrade to +20% Attack Speed, 150% Ability Score bonus to your damage (like THF)
GSWF: Upgrade to +30% Attack Speed, 200% Ability Score bonus to your damage


Other options discussed here today also included critical profiles, defensive bonuses, double strike, different new doublestrike, triplestrike, die sides, armor piercing, increase to all damage, etc. Some of these still may be on the table, some are less likely due to technical or design issues, but we're still happy to hear discussions.

Now THAT is a much better approach.I'd sign up for this alone and TR back to bard asap.But consider adding % bonuses to elemental effects on weapons (flaming holy etc) while at it.Also does this attack speed means the animation will be less lame and more swashbuckler like?

[Satyriasys]

Whatever you do please make SWF with NOTHING in the offhand give some sort of bonus. I always liked the idea of a swordsman/fencer type character but currently in DDO you pretty much have to dual wield. And for someone who wishes to forsake the offhand buckler it could give them a little bonus, even if minor.



This is not a balance concern, but rather a decision and build-making concern. Runearms represent a different style of play currently restricted to artificers. We could, for instance, let anyone take a pet feat to give them a pet similar to Druids or Artificers, but that would make those classes less unique and interesting, and give less reason for taking them. There are some level of balance concerns involved, but this is an area where we feel that the reasonable default is to keep this limited to one class to keep it special. We'd consider the onus on the other side of the argument: Convince us why DDO is a better game when everyone can get Runearms with a single feat choice.

I agree. Giving everyone everything is a bad idea. The classes have already been watered down enough.

[Havok.cry]

This is not a balance concern, but rather a decision and build-making concern. Runearms represent a different style of play currently restricted to artificers. We could, for instance, let anyone take a pet feat to give them a pet similar to Druids or Artificers, but that would make those classes less unique and interesting, and give less reason for taking them. There are some level of balance concerns involved, but this is an area where we feel that the reasonable default is to keep this limited to one class to keep it special. We'd consider the onus on the other side of the argument: Convince us why DDO is a better game when everyone can get Runearms with a single feat choice.

My own argument for this would be along the lines of:
The rune arm is the single item in the entirety of the game that only one type of person can learn to use. Orbs which are intended for casters can, with a single feat selection, be used by anyone, regardless of class. Even items designed specifically for a single class to use can be equipped by others, for example: the longsword "Divine Vengeance," which is only really worthwhile for paladins to use. Rune arms have a similar mechanic to that longsword already built in, in that much of it's usefulness is tied up in how many artificer levels you have. Adding on a further requirement of "must have 2 artificer levels to even equip it" changes it from a great item with a lot of potential, into an inconsistency in your game world (this is my perspective, not necessarily fact).

To take this further, even most items that you are not proficient with, you can still equip, with penalties. You can, if you so choose, equip a tower shield on a pure wizard, or a pure monk, or a pure rogue, none of which have actually taken the proficiency. They may even gain some benefit to doing so, while still suffering the penalties for it. Having the rune arm not even be able to be equipped as a non-proficient item makes this even more of an inconsistency.

As far as immersion goes, this item is one of the things that totally breaks it for me. I have characters with upwards of 60+ Use Magic Device skill, which are incidentally not artificers. The explaination to the arti-only part of the rune arm was that it was a complex magical device that only an artificer could figure out. I'm to lazy to find the quote on that as it was a long time ago, but that is what one of the devs stated. To me that was translated from dev-speak to player-speak as "All the characters you are playing with UMD are idiots unless they are artificers." Now that might be something of a mistranslation, but look at it from my perspective. My character is a grand master at "figuring out how to get magical devices to work" but he can't even stick his arm through the right sized hole and wear it like a bracelet, much less have a chance to figure out the device in his inventory.

As you have stated here that it is not a balance decision, and others have pointed out that much of it's functionality would be lost without artificer levels, I really don't understand the reasons behind this decision. Personally I would like to see it have a general feat for proficiency, that artificers get for free, and also Half Elf Artificer Dilettante count as an artificer for rune arm purposes equal to the artificer caster level it provides. This would open up a lot of interesting design choices and, in my opinion be something of an improvement on the "Everyone and there dog is a monk" game currently being played.

Artificers have other things going for them other than just rune arms. They have unique buffs, a powerful blade barrier, some amazing (my opinion) offensive spells, non-divine mass healing, and as you yourself pointed out, a combat pet. Allowing non-artificers to use rune arms would not make them less unique any more than letting non-wizards/sorcerers use orbs makes them less unique.

PS: I don't think adding a feat to gain a combat pet would take away from druids or artis either. Part of what makes them nice (again, my opinion) is the enhancements that improve them, and a feat would not give you those. Even if you did add this sort of thing, druids and artis could take it too... then they would be rather distinctive as the only classes that could have two combat pets. (Well pale masters also.) Of course I think adding in too many combat pets would be a bad idea, as the more you add the "pike while the computer plays" type of features, the less addicting your game will be.

[Scraap]

My own argument for this would be along the lines of:
The rune arm is the single item in the entirety of the game that only one type of person can learn to use. Orbs which are intended for casters can, with a single feat selection, be used by anyone, regardless of class. Even items designed specifically for a single class to use can be equipped by others, for example: the longsword "Divine Vengeance," which is only really worthwhile for paladins to use. Rune arms have a similar mechanic to that longsword already built in, in that much of it's usefulness is tied up in how many artificer levels you have. Adding on a further requirement of "must have 2 artificer levels to even equip it" changes it from a great item with a lot of potential, into an inconsistency in your game world (this is my perspective, not necessarily fact).

To take this further, even most items that you are not proficient with, you can still equip, with penalties. You can, if you so choose, equip a tower shield on a pure wizard, or a pure monk, or a pure rogue, none of which have actually taken the proficiency. They may even gain some benefit to doing so, while still suffering the penalties for it. Having the rune arm not even be able to be equipped as a non-proficient item makes this even more of an inconsistency.

As far as immersion goes, this item is one of the things that totally breaks it for me. I have characters with upwards of 60+ Use Magic Device skill, which are incidentally not artificers. The explaination to the arti-only part of the rune arm was that it was a complex magical device that only an artificer could figure out. I'm to lazy to find the quote on that as it was a long time ago, but that is what one of the devs stated. To me that was translated from dev-speak to player-speak as "All the characters you are playing with UMD are idiots unless they are artificers." Now that might be something of a mistranslation, but look at it from my perspective. My character is a grand master at "figuring out how to get magical devices to work" but he can't even stick his arm through the right sized hole and wear it like a bracelet, much less have a chance to figure out the device in his inventory.

As you have stated here that it is not a balance decision, and others have pointed out that much of it's functionality would be lost without artificer levels, I really don't understand the reasons behind this decision. Personally I would like to see it have a general feat for proficiency, that artificers get for free, and also Half Elf Artificer Dilettante count as an artificer for rune arm purposes equal to the artificer caster level it provides. This would open up a lot of interesting design choices and, in my opinion be something of an improvement on the "Everyone and there dog is a monk" game currently being played.

Artificers have other things going for them other than just rune arms. They have unique buffs, a powerful blade barrier, some amazing (my opinion) offensive spells, non-divine mass healing, and as you yourself pointed out, a combat pet. Allowing non-artificers to use rune arms would not make them less unique any more than letting non-wizards/sorcerers use orbs makes them less unique.

PS: I don't think adding a feat to gain a combat pet would take away from druids or artis either. Part of what makes them nice (again, my opinion) is the enhancements that improve them, and a feat would not give you those. Even if you did add this sort of thing, druids and artis could take it too... then they would be rather distinctive as the only classes that could have two combat pets. (Well pale masters also.) Of course I think adding in too many combat pets would be a bad idea, as the more you add the "pike while the computer plays" type of features, the less addicting your game will be.

Not really a whole lot to add here. Those have pretty much been my thoughts on the matter since that offhand item was released as well.

[Thar]

Will the TOD ring set for virtuoso be revised for swashbucker? or a new ring set?

[Scrabbler]

Really, the primary goal is to support players who envision themselves as fighting with a single weapon. Also very important is trying to develop a distinct playstyle such as THF or TWF as much as we can (which is probably the more difficult part).
When people ask what the goal for SWF is, that kind of answer is too vague to be really useful.

They can guess it's supposed to "support" a player fighting with a single weapon, but what does that mean? Should the damage be the same as TWF, or should it be weaker and make up for it by either being less expensive, or providing other advantages? For example, maybe the devs are thinking that not requiring a 19 ability score is a benefit of SWF compared to THF/TWF... but really it isn't, because other important feats have higher requirements.


We know that there's not necessarily obvious synergies SWF Heavy Armor Builds, but if you envision yourself as a Kensei in heavy armor with a single weapon, you shouldn't feel bad for playing that build.
Erm, the Kensei tree in DDO is already firmly opposed to heavy armor. The key tier 5 Kensei ability is One With The Blade, which prohibits use of any armor.


There's some other trees like Kensei that contain a good amount of combat-style agnostic abilities (or that aren't significantly better for TWF or THF, for instance), such as Occult Slayer
It actually would be kinda cool if you put some SWF-specific benefits into Occult Slayer. That would make sense because Occult Slayer is derived from Solomon Kane, who equipped himself much like a musketeer. And needless to say, Occult Slayer needs a lot of improvements...

You could even make a case for Occult Slayer to grant Evasion when offhand is empty!



And even then there's already some discussions about turning Scimitars into light weapons for use with Swashbuckler.
Speaking of the weapons used by a Swashbuckler, is it really a good idea to favor things like Mace, Sickle, and Pick instead of Rapier? When you create screenshots to promote the update, will you carefully avoid showing Swashbucklers holding Rapiers?

[capsela]

So can you use a shield with SWF feat or is a shield considered a weapon?

[cdbd3rd]

Since I don't think we addressed it: We're letting you continue to Swashbuckle with a scroll or wand....

Wand... Stick... Sword...

Is of no import - our enemies shall be Swashed asunder!


http://sweetgrace.typepad.com/.a/6a00e553deebaf8834014e88d2a225970d-550wi

[Scraap]

So can you use a shield with SWF feat or is a shield considered a weapon?

If they're going to be considered weapons now, I want my implement bonus.

[Steelstar]

Speaking of the weapons used by a Swashbuckler, is it really a good idea to favor things like Mace, Sickle, and Pick instead of Rapier? When you create screenshots to promote the update, will you carefully avoid showing Swashbucklers holding Rapiers?

What's wrong with Rapiers? You can Swashbuckle with a Rapier.

[thegreatneil]

What's wrong with Rapiers? You can Swashbuckle with a Rapier.

why use a x2 when I can use a x4?

Edit: I know the rapier becomes x3, but x4 pick is still better.

[Coldin]

why use a x2 when I can use a x4?

Edit: I know the rapier becomes x3, but x4 pick is still better.

The rapier will have a better crit range though.

[Aerinsma]

If you are allowing orbs and rune arms to be used with single weapon feats, then why not bucklers? It does seem to be a great opportunity to make bucklers useful, and to make swashbucklers pay extra to be able to use them is just not right.

[CaptainSpacePony]

For Swashbucklers, it's the Musketeers. But it need not be limited to that.


I recommend switching to Zorro. The musketeers were after all primarily, ermm... musketeers. You know--guys with muskets.

[FlaviusMaximus]

why use a x2 when I can use a x4?

Edit: I know the rapier becomes x3, but x4 pick is still better.


The rapier will have a better crit range though.

That, and Balizarde. No, the Balizarde isn't going to do as much damage as a fully upgraded Thunder Forge rapier with something like Crippling Flames on it, but it would be good enough with the extra crit multiplier and whatever other clever ways a player can add crit range from class and destiny trees that one would feel far from gimped wielding one. Both the builds that I would make based on what is being considered right now would use a rapier (specifically a Balizarde), but that has as much to do with the fact that I probably wont be able to fully upgrade a Thunder Forge weapon until 2015 as anything else. Elves and Drow get some nice bonuses with the weapon too.

Even if one isn't using a Balizarde, crit range is a big factor if using a large crit damage proc on their Thunder Forge weapon. In addition, if one uses the (soon to be available again in the cove) Epic Swashbuckler buckler in their offhand, all crits daze enemies, so crit range is a factor there as well. Rapier is a very legit option.

[CaptainSpacePony]

The rapier will have a better crit range though.
correct, all currently listed swashing weapons will have 3x3 crit profiles with the EXCEPTION of the light pick which will have a 2x4 profile.

[Caprice]

This is not a balance concern, but rather a decision and build-making concern. Runearms represent a different style of play currently restricted to artificers. We could, for instance, let anyone take a pet feat to give them a pet similar to Druids or Artificers, but that would make those classes less unique and interesting, and give less reason for taking them. There are some level of balance concerns involved, but this is an area where we feel that the reasonable default is to keep this limited to one class to keep it special. We'd consider the onus on the other side of the argument: Convince us why DDO is a better game when everyone can get Runearms with a single feat choice.
That's a fair point. I don't think it make DDO a better game if it is a chooseable feat. I want it because:
- it sounds fun!,
- more build options are always nice, and
- I want more ways to build pure class characters that work rather than having everything be better when multiclassed.
I recognize that these are incredibly flimsy justifications and I'll agree that "No" is a perfectly reasonable response.

However after recognizing that my rationale is weak, I would really like to turn the question around and ask why runearm support is being added to Swashbuckling at all?

Bard is not exactly a particularly popular class right now. Artificers are. Bard is a decent class but not one of the strongest ones. Artificer is (albeit it has some endgame itemization issues). Artificer also already has its own unique melee style including enhancements and bonus feat picks, using weapons that are not compatible with Swashbuckling. Artificer doesn't need Swashbuckler support to increase its interest among players at all. Bard does. So... what value do we get from adding Artificer-restricted abilities to a Bard PrE? Stylistically I like the idea of runearms on a swashbuckler-type but I want this to be a Bard tree that fixes Bard issues, not a Bard tree that supports Artificer flavor builds.

There's not a lot of synergy between the classes either. Runearm damage is dependent on Artificer levels and Bard does nothing for that, songs are quite limited by Bard levels and Artificer does nothing for that, splitting spellcaster levels is always a bit awkward due to the lost caster levels, DCs, and Spell Penetration, and the stat requirements for both are quite different. Artificer gives trap skills and Magical Training to Bard, and Bard could be used to power a few Fascinates and unlocks Perform for Shiradi procs on Artificer, but none of that is exactly exciting IMO.

The only answer I can come up with for including runearm support in Swashbuckler is "because it sounds cool!" - and it does - but that is just as flimsy as my reasons above. However I don't want to be accused of making a strawman argument (even though I just did), so could you tell us how Swashbuckling Artificers makes DDO a better game?

[Scrabbler]

What's wrong with Rapiers? You can Swashbuckle with a Rapier.
What's wrong with Swashbuckler Rapiers? Three things: The second core Swashbuckler enhancement boosts all compatible weapons to be equivalent to Rapier (or very close in a different way). Items that are otherwise pretty junky, like Sickle and Light Mace, become equal to Rapier for the character. All three of those items get 1d6 18-20/x3.
Because items like Sickle, Mace, and even Shortsword are normally junky, when previous developers have used them for named loot in the past, they often were given improved crit profiles, such as an 18-20/x2 Shortsword. The intent for that Shortsword was to make it just as good as a Rapier. But when those special weapons are combined with the Swashbuckler enhancements, they become flat-out better than Rapier. For example, there's a Dagger that a Swashbuckler could use for 15-20/x4 crits at level 4.
The Swashbuckler mode (plus Imp Crit) boosts most allowed weapons to 15-20/x3, except for Light Pick which gets 17-20/x4. For normal attacks those are pretty balanced (across 20 swings both expect 12 hits worth of crit damage). But the Swashbuckler tree also includes three enhancements which boost critical range without changing crit mult: Blow By Blow, En Point, and Exploit Weaknesses. All of those give a bigger benefit to 4x weapons than 3x weapons. So when special named items are not available, the Swashbuckler character is better off holding a Pick.
Note that there are still some times where having obtained an especially-good named Rapier will make it a Swashbuckler's best choice of weapon, but that's not enough to get around this problem.

[Cardtrick]

Since I don't think we addressed it: We're letting you continue to Swashbuckle with a scroll or wand.

Nice!

Between this and the much-improved SWF feats -- and the various Swashbuckler changes you've already made -- I've gone from unimpressed to excited. I need to get a bard life on my wannabe-completionist guy at some point in the relatively near future, and I'll definitely be waiting on it so I can give this new tree a try. Looking forward to it.


Also, I would suggest editing the first post in this thread with a link to your most recent post on the SWF feats; this thread has gotten very long and we're still getting responses from people based on the first post.

[Scrabbler]

That's a fair point. I don't think it make DDO a better game if it is a chooseable feat. I want it because:
- it sounds fun!,
- more build options are always nice, and
Allowing Runearm use as a general feat would remove build options. It would no longer be defensible to make a character who uses crossbows but not also a runearm.

[Caprice]

My own argument for this would be along the lines of:
<<< Lots of good points>>>

FWIW I agree with the logic of these points, but I don't think that logic necessarily applies. Logical consistency has merit but does not necessarily make the game better.

From a lore standpoint one could say that it is something specific about how Artificer magic is channeled that powers runearms and that no one else can mimic that type of channeling. You can probably decipher how it is triggered with UMD, but you can't actually get it to charge so it is just a heavy bracelet to you no matter what your UMD is. If you did figure out how to channel properly then you would be a self-taught Artificer and have to take an Artificer level (or 2 in this case) to represent that. If you figured it out on your own House C might forcibly impress you or have you executed before you could teach anyone else - PnP Eberron is a pretty harsh place at times. I'm not aware enough of the lore around runearms to know if that is justifiable or not but IIRC there are other examples of magitechnology in Eberron that are similar monopolies, such as House Lyrandar's unique ability to pilot airships.

Ideally you should be able to equip a runearm as a non-Artificer but get no bonuses of any kind, but from a game coding standpoint it's simpler just to prevent you from equipping it at all.

Although on the pet front, perhaps Rangers should get a pet too since they do in PnP (IIRC at level 4). They do not in DDO because Rangers were there at launch when the supporting code was not in place, but maybe that should be revisited at some point. That's a digression though.

[Ralmeth]

Speaking of the weapons used by a Swashbuckler, is it really a good idea to favor things like Mace, Sickle, and Pick instead of Rapier? When you create screenshots to promote the update, will you carefully avoid showing Swashbucklers holding Rapiers?

IMHO, as a RL fencer, SWF should be limited to weapons with bell guards. If you don't have a bell guard on your weapon you are going to be at a huge disadvantage because you will get hit on your hand otherwise. Maces, sickles, picks, and any other weapon that doesn't have a bell guard should not qualify for the Swashbuckling stance. At least, that's my 2 CP.

[Ralmeth]

For Swashbucklers, it's the Musketeers. But it need not be limited to that.

Yes! Muskateers rock!!!

[Caprice]

Allowing Runearm use as a general feat would remove build options. It would no longer be defensible to make a character who uses crossbows but not also a runearm.
I do not see that as true. No one is required to build a character that is absolutely optimal (if that even is optimal). That is a self-imposed constraint, not a mechanical one.

Adding the feat does not make it mechanically impossible to build a character who doesn't have the feat and uses crossbows but not also a runearm. Characters out there who are already using crossbows will not suddenly be forced to respec to take it, and the existence of the feat does not reduce the effectiveness of any such characters. It may allow them to increase their effectiveness slightly if they choose to respec to take it, but without the supporting artificer levels the runearm discharge will do less damage than a ranged attack so it will be of marginal use at best, and the imbue is useful but not overpowering. So there will still be crossbow users without it, and there will be new ones that use it. That is more build options then just those without it.

By your argument S&B melee builds simply do not exist, since S&B is not defensible when someone could be a centered Kensai and have better DPS, better defenses, better saves, and Evasion. However I can guarantee you that S&B builds do exist in the game since I duo with one regularly. For some people there is a challenge to making a non-optimal build work well despite the limitations.

As for "defensibility", different people will have different definitions of what qualifies but I am perfectly happy with any of "I hate how runearms look and work", "I didn't want to buy a LR for that little DPS gain", "I don't have enough feats for everything and that offers me the least", "movement speed is more important to me than the minor DPS gain" (although that only covers the charge, not the imbue).

[IronClan]

What's wrong with Swashbuckler Rapiers? Three things:

The second core Swashbuckler enhancement boosts all compatible weapons to be equivalent to Rapier (or very close in a different way). Items that are otherwise pretty junky, like Sickle and Light Mace, become equal to Rapier for the character. All three of those items get 1d6 18-20/x3.
Because items like Sickle, Mace, and even Shortsword are normally junky, when previous developers have used them for named loot in the past, they often were given improved crit profiles, such as an 18-20/x2 Shortsword. The intent for that Shortsword was to make it just as good as a Rapier. But when those special weapons are combined with the Swashbuckler enhancements, they become flat-out better than Rapier. For example, there's a Dagger that a Swashbuckler could use for 15-20/x4 crits at level 4.
The Swashbuckler mode (plus Imp Crit) boosts most allowed weapons to 15-20/x3, except for Light Pick which gets 17-20/x4. For normal attacks those are pretty balanced (across 20 swings both expect 12 hits worth of crit damage). But the Swashbuckler tree also includes three enhancements which boost critical range without changing crit mult: Blow By Blow, En Point, and Exploit Weaknesses. All of those give a bigger benefit to 4x weapons than 3x weapons. So when special named items are not available, the Swashbuckler character is better off holding a Pick.

Note that there are still some times where having obtained an especially-good named Rapier will make it a Swashbuckler's best choice of weapon, but that's not enough to get around this problem.

So Rapiers are worse because: named versions of junky weapons... But we're to ignore named rapiers...

Sorry don't agree with your opinion, I like that Swashbucklers can use some pirate-y and "improvised" or not usually optimal weapons... I would expand this list a few more even.

I would add Long swords to this with a lower crit improvment (say only +1 multiplier) Heavy Picks (give Light +2 range and Heavy Pick +1 range), Morningstars (2X3) Battle Axes (+1 range) and maybe more. This is by far my favorite aspect of Swashbuckler that they got right... It needs help, let the player base min/max an optimal weapon choice and maybe Swashbuckler can be end game EE worthy... if not? No chance at all.

[CaptainSpacePony]

IMHO, as a RL fencer, SWF should be limited to weapons with bell guards. If you don't have a bell guard on your weapon you are going to be at a huge disadvantage because you will get hit on your hand otherwise. Maces, sickles, picks, and any other weapon that doesn't have a bell guard should not qualify for the Swashbuckling stance. At least, that's my 2 CP.

I doubt your argument will win the day, but you have won me over.

[IronClan]

IMHO, as a RL fencer, SWF should be limited to weapons with bell guards. If you don't have a bell guard on your weapon you are going to be at a huge disadvantage because you will get hit on your hand otherwise. Maces, sickles, picks, and any other weapon that doesn't have a bell guard should not qualify for the Swashbuckling stance. At least, that's my 2 CP.

any of them can have guards built in, and platemail gauntlets for that matter, lets not bring real life into it.

[IronClan]

Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.

Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.

Runearm's are okay but Shields aren't? Seriously?!!! S&B desperately needs love and you're excluding S&B from the SWF feat line?

I just... it doesn't.... I can't.... PLEASE reconsider this, it's MADNESS to exclude Shields from SWF... while including Orbs and Runearms... Runearms are 10X better to equip than a Shield in this game... Poor shield users... ever kicked while being the WORST COMBAT STYLE IN THE GAME...

I can't express out out of touch it makes you guys appear when you expressly exclude the worst, most needy from a new feat line that S&B would barely be able to afford, but that would at least help them suck less.

It makes no sense and makes people think you guys don't play this game and are making changes and excluding things blindly based on a lack of understanding of how the game actually works...

Runearms are WAY more powerful than Shields... And this basically makes 3 ARTI compulsory for all SWF builds over possibly using a shield.

[IronClan]

What's wrong with Rapiers? You can Swashbuckle with a Rapier.

Why can't you Swashbuckle with a buckle?

[Ebondevil]

What's wrong with Rapiers? You can Swashbuckle with a Rapier.


So Rapiers are worse because:

There are a lot of Zombies and Skeletons in the game, making Slashing and Bludgeoning weapons a better choice for breaking DR, while Piercing breaks the DR of a a significant Minority.

Making all the Swashbuckler enabled weapons perform equally well removes the advantages that Rapiers have to overcome their other shortcomings.

While I agree the weapons could use some love, so could rapiers.

[HatsuharuZ]

There is nothing wrong with rapiers. After all, Resonant Arms gives you extra sonic damage on a *crit*, and the ability is thus more effective with a wider critical threat range. :D

[Silverleafeon]

any of them can have guards built in, and platemail gauntlets for that matter, lets not bring real life into it.
nods

Why can't you Swashbuckle with a buckle?
LOL

[HatsuharuZ]

And while we're at it, lets give the swashbuckler tree to paladins! Just replace Tavern Shanties with an SP-increasing enhancement that gives you Magical Training on the third tier.

No, I'm not stupid. I'm insane! :D

[cdbd3rd]

Why can't you Swashbuckle with a buckle?


I'm gonna guess you meant Buckler - as defending with one's buckle could lead to some rather grievous injuries. :p


As for Bucklers...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0Ri0tY0Q_E

[IronClan]

I'm gonna guess you meant Buckler - as defending with one's buckle could lead to some rather grievous injuries. :p

Nah I meant to spell it the same way to use the same tence that Steele did, to help drive home how silly it is for Swashers to not be able to buckle while the are doing their swashing.

heheh just noticed your sig, i was doing the same thing your sig is doing

[cdbd3rd]

Nah I meant to spell it the same way to use the same tence that Steele did, to help drive home how silly it is for Swashers to not be able to buckle while the are doing their swashing.

heheh just noticed your sig, i was doing the same thing your sig is doing


https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3158750208/h868BC19D/

[Scrabbler]

So Rapiers are worse because
The point is that Swashbuckler explicitly discourages the use of Rapiers by giving a larger bonus to almost any other weapon besides a Rapier (or Kukri).

Look at it this way: If you take a regular Bard (or Rogue, or Barbarian...) with no feats/enhancements who has to fight a bunch of ogres with a single +1 Flaming weapon chosen from Light Mace, Sickle, Handaxe, Shortsword, or Rapier, which will she pick? She'll mostly pick Rapier, because it has the most powerful stats of any of those choices.

But adding Swashbuckler enhancements changes that, and there's no longer any immediate advantage to Rapier. Given the traditional theme of Swashbuckler heros in books and movies, we might've expected the tree to give even more benefits to Rapier over other weapons; instead it gives less.

[Dilbon]

If SWF worked with a buckler you could benefit from three styles at once if wielding a bastard sword or a dwarven axe. That would take 8-10 feats though.

[Grace_ana]

This is not a balance concern, but rather a decision and build-making concern. Runearms represent a different style of play currently restricted to artificers. We could, for instance, let anyone take a pet feat to give them a pet similar to Druids or Artificers, but that would make those classes less unique and interesting, and give less reason for taking them. There are some level of balance concerns involved, but this is an area where we feel that the reasonable default is to keep this limited to one class to keep it special. We'd consider the onus on the other side of the argument: Convince us why DDO is a better game when everyone can get Runearms with a single feat choice.

I agree with this. I think to get certain special aspects of a class, you should have to actually take some levels of that class.


We want Single Weapon Fighting feats to be viable and feel good for Heavy Armor builds, which means we don't want to add large amounts of Dodge into those feats, since much of that would end up wasted for those builds. We know that there's not necessarily obvious synergies SWF Heavy Armor Builds, but if you envision yourself as a Kensei in heavy armor with a single weapon, you shouldn't feel bad for playing that build. There's some other trees like Kensei that contain a good amount of combat-style agnostic abilities (or that aren't significantly better for TWF or THF, for instance), such as Occult Slayer, Eldritch Knight, and Warpriest (some of which support some other options, such as shield use, but a SWF is fairly conceivable).

While Swashbuckler contains more explicit support for SWF, using SWF with other trees should generally feel pretty good, unless it's something like Tempest that clearly caters to another combat style. And even then there's already some discussions about turning Scimitars into light weapons for use with Swashbuckler.

This being the case, I don't think SWF should disallow shields. I think allowing it to use shields as well - as long as it has a non-weapon in the other hand, still remaining single weapon fighting - would really help out pallies and some other builds.

[Nightmanis]

If SWF worked with a buckler you could benefit from three styles at once if wielding a bastard sword or a dwarven axe. That would take 8-10 feats though.

12 feats in total. Assuming you like to cleave, of course. Bastards were removed from the SWF feats as far as I know from what Varg has posted.

As of right now with 3 levels of bard you CAN use a buckler while in Swashbuckler stance.

However, there are only 3 weapons that will benefit from this. Sun Blade, Star of Day, and Celestia.

All 3 count as bastard swords when used with a shield, yet all 3 are coded as short swords.

Before you get all antsy about this remember. That's 12 feats (GSWF, GTHF, ISM, Improved Shield Bashing (you want this), PA/Cl/GC) not including IC:Pierce. At this point you might as well go for OC too. All of this only to be limited to light armour and bucklers while also being locked out of Pally saves.

[Nightmanis]

One thing I might ask.

Can we allow Bastard swords and Dwarven Waraxes to work with the SWF feats, but only gain the benefit of the first one?

This would be a pure flavour thing. Just allow us to use something such as Nightmare by itself, and it loses the benefit whenever a shield is equipped regardless of Swashbuckler.

[Blayster]

lets not bring real life into it.
This is a disgraceful argument that all of you kids seem to love to bring in the forums as some sort of golden rule that solves all the problems. Of course we should bring real life into it, even in a fantasy game; Its about ambience. When we say "swashbuckler" no one pictures a very skilled and swift mace fighter, let a lot a dude with a pick, heavy or light. We picture sabres(scimitars?), rapiers, foil; I personally like the idea of the guy fighting with a dagger on the offhand or between his teeth.

I find this overwhelmingly disappointing, specially coming from a community who (supposedly) came from PnP where ambience was actually very important. Its easy to neglect that in an MMO, it doesn't mean it HAS to be neglected.

Fencing weapons are notorious for their improved critical threat range (D&D wise; never seen an official foil though) which is very fitting imho. Also note that historically speaking those weapons were meant to pierce the armor of the opponent not by bruteforce, but by dexterity, hitting those "spots" that the armor couldn't protect well. That is "armor piercing", something DDO already has implemented, not +3065% attack speed nor +999% STR bonus damage; that is expanded critical range, oh lord, that is SEEKER, make a considerably large one! They crit often, they ignore fort, they receive considerably large bonus to crits, voilá DPS. Why does DPS need to come from the same old things, STR on top of STR? If anything, what difference makes if Cpt. Sparrow or Hulk pierces you with a rapier? (I know, Hulk would pierce AND THEN SMASH YOU). Are you really creating a new fighting style or just trying to fool us? Isn't this more of the same? I loved the initial idea of swashbuckler, and I was sorely disappointed when they announced these choices; they are unfitting and just remotely resemble the image we have from swashbucklers per se.

[junta64]

What kind of splashes are we going to see with this? This may be crazy, but people may actually splash bard!!

[Nightmanis]

Calling it now. 13 Rogue 4 FVS 3 Bard.

Single dagger with Ameliorating strike. Dex or Str build, though Dex will be better to make up for the reflexes. If I'm right, that should end up with an 11-20/x4 dagger or Kukri. Potential to not be tripped, great crit range with that weapon.

And will probably be nerfed by tomorrow morning because I said this.

[IronClan]

The point is that Swashbuckler explicitly discourages the use of Rapiers by giving a larger bonus to almost any other weapon besides a Rapier (or Kukri).

And my point is that you yourself pointed out that this is only true if named rapiers are ignored. (which are in far greater supply and far greater viablity than those non optimal weapons are) There's at least two end game Rapiers that can be considered top swashbuckler weapons... one of them is possibly the top DPS melee weapon possible in the game.

Thunderforged Rapier with Dragons Edge and Crippling flames on crit procs.

[IronClan]

If SWF worked with a buckler you could benefit from three styles at once if wielding a bastard sword or a dwarven axe. That would take 8-10 feats though.

SO you're saying it would take a tremendous investment to make S&B semi-viable by allowing the logical SWF feats to work on a SWF character like a S&B? I agree put that way maybe they should be autogranted by Defender trees so that S&B can be more than semi-viable and reach :gasp: actual viability as a combat style choice.

[IronClan]

This is a disgraceful argument that all of you kids seem to love to bring in the forums

Hi I ignored the rest of your post after this opener. To expand on my comment: there's magic in D&D, and neither hand guards nor bracers nor metal gauntlets are outside the realm of "real life" let alone "magic life in a fantasy setting". I've literally held an axe that had a hand guard.

The reason not to restrict swashbucklers to rapiers and daggers only, is simple; there are a lot archetypical swashbuckler tropes. One of them is the Pirate with a belaying pin, Flails are common Pirate weapons as are clubs of all sorts another is a Dirk and Pistol, fencers, sabers, EVEN SCIMITARS (Sinbad). Morningstars are basically clubs with spikes, spiked clubs are common Pirate weapons.

Picks and Axes? Well besides being common tools that are also used by Pirates (burying treasure and cutting down splintered masts arrrg) we have Dwarves and Duergar pirates one can only assume they might bring their racial preference to the swashbuckling table.

Long swords are also common Swashbuckler weapons, I believe they should be included as they are also highly sub optimal weapons and could use the love.

Now practically speaking all that flavor aside: Swashbuckler needs every bit of help it can get to be a viable melee style as it already has Bard as a strike against it, and minus 0.8 attacks/procs/effects per attack, etc. (I.e. at least -80% less DPS than another Melee without accounting for Bard class lending it's weakness) So giving min/maxers some nuggets with which to find powerful versions of this, is a very good idea. Or it will just be flavor only.

[Cleanincubus]

And even then there's already some discussions about turning Scimitars into light weapons for use with Swashbuckler.

I strongly disagree with this. There should not be such a big change made, just to benefit a new Prestige class. If my Rogue Assassin was stuck with Enhancements only beneficial to Daggers and Kukris, then no other Prestige should change the "weight class" (for lack of a better term) of an already existing weapon. Now if you're going to change the Rogue Enhancements, along with multiple changes to other class Enhancements (and Prestige Enhancements), to even things out when it comes to weapons, then no problem. Otherwise, I call nonsense.

Sticking with Lore, if the Scimitars are changed to Light weapons, they will be half the weight they are now, and also do less damage (1d4 verse 1d6).

Please don't. Seriously, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease don't.

[Scrabbler]

And my point is that you yourself pointed out that this is only true if named rapiers are ignored. (which are in far greater supply and far greater viablity than those non optimal weapons are)
Huh??? Named Rapiers are in great supply? Can you list two good named Rapiers?

Or for a simpler question, list one good named Rapier below level 20.


Thunderforged Rapier with Dragons Edge and Crippling flames on crit procs.
Thunderforged isn't a named Rapier; you can get Thunderforged in Dagger, Mace, and whatever else, all with the same critical profile.

[IronClan]

Varg I agree with Geoff why are you conflating Swashbuckler and SFW feats instead of taking this as a chance to provide ALL CLASSES with a viable choice of combat style? SWF feats should not be about Swashbuckler alone. They should work for Shield users of all varieties. Buckler, large, tower... maybe give a small trade off for shield size (-5% less speed for Large, -10% less for Tower or the like). You guys are aware that S&B is considered completely underpowered for what it gets in defensive ability by most of the player base no?

SWF is the perfect chance to improve more than just swashbuckler.

[Blayster]

Hi I ignored the rest of your post after this opener.
Idem.


Or for a simpler question, list one good named Rapier below level 20.
I like Tyrzza's Bane (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tyrzza%27s_Bane) for low levels but after that GS weapons are always better. That's true to almost every weapon though...

[Scrabbler]

I strongly disagree with this. There should not be such a big change made, just to benefit a new Prestige class.
Adding one clause to one Swashbuckler enhancement (which hasn't even been released yet) is not a big change.

A Scimitar in DDO already is a Light weapon, if you're a Ranger. Adding Bards to that list would be a minor change, and probably beneficial in terms of making Swashbucklers look more like Swashbucklers.

[IronClan]

Huh??? Named Rapiers are in great supply? Can you list two good named Rapiers?

Or for a simpler question, list one good named Rapier below level 20.


Thunderforged isn't a named Rapier; you can get Thunderforged in Dagger, Mace, and whatever else, all with the same critical profile.

You yourself admited that you need to ignore named rapiers why are we arguing again? :rolleyes:

Thunder forged Rapier (which I certainly count as the same thing as a named weapon just like everyone else does, just like greensteel, just like Alchemical) has a Rapier crit profile (18-20) equaled only by Scimitar, and along with them, on the right build it will get the the added 299 average damage on all crits more often than any other melee weapon. On the proposed SWF feats with stacking 30% speed and assuming Varg does not make Scimmitars part of the tree, that might arguably make a Rapier using swashbuckler a top Melee DPS build (definitely arguable) but regardless making it one of the better DPS weapons in the game.

The other is Balizard. Either of these are certainly as good or better than any named light mace, Hand axe, Light Pick or club you're likely to name. But blow me away with your end game Light Pick of choice by all means, I will gladly concede this argument to you if you have some Uber Club's, Light Picks and whatnot that would out DPS a TF Rapier.

BTW I'm done with this debate, I really want Varg to see and answer the S&B comments and get SWF to apply to S&B, and this argument is just raising the noise level for no gain.

[Scrabbler]

Thunder forged Rapier (which I certainly count as the same thing as a named weapon just like everyone else does, just like greensteel, just like Alchemical) has a Rapier crit profile (18-20) equaled only by Scimitar
Rapier, Kukri, Dagger, Shortsword, Handaxe, Sickle, and Light Mace all have the same crit profile. Scimitar has a worse crit profile (although the devs are considering giving it a boost).

[Scrabbler]

Calling it now. 13 Rogue 4 FVS 3 Bard.
Single dagger with Ameliorating strike. Dex or Str build, though Dex will be better to make up for the reflexes. If I'm right, that should end up with an 11-20/x4 dagger or Kukri.
That character would be 15-20/x3 with Dagger or Kukri. Bard Swashbuckler and Rogue Assassin both give an identical Competence bonus to critical profile, so they don't stack.

Most all heroic enhancement bonuses to crit are Competence bonuses for that reason.

[Nascoe]

If SWF worked with a buckler you could benefit from three styles at once if wielding a bastard sword or a dwarven axe. That would take 8-10 feats though.

So with that you have cleared that point - its balanced, because it required an insane feat investment that a pure Swashbuckling bard could only take when using epic feat choices!

[FlaviusMaximus]

Since I don't think we addressed it: We're letting you continue to Swashbuckle with a scroll or wand.

Does this mean the Swashbuckling stance will not be broken when one uses a wand or scroll or does it mean that one will be able to fight like normal while holding a wand or scroll in one of their hands? Since scrolls only equip to the mainhand I have to believe the answer is the former, but since it isn't outside the realm of possibility that some different mechanics may be introduced in the next update I thought it was worth asking.

[BigErkyKid]

Runearm's are okay but Shields aren't? Seriously?!!! S&B desperately needs love and you're excluding S&B from the SWF feat line?

I just... it doesn't.... I can't.... PLEASE reconsider this, it's MADNESS to exclude Shields from SWF... while including Orbs and Runearms... Runearms are 10X better to equip than a Shield in this game... Poor shield users... ever kicked while being the WORST COMBAT STYLE IN THE GAME...

I can't express out out of touch it makes you guys appear when you expressly exclude the worst, most needy from a new feat line that S&B would barely be able to afford, but that would at least help them suck less.

It makes no sense and makes people think you guys don't play this game and are making changes and excluding things blindly based on a lack of understanding of how the game actually works...

Runearms are WAY more powerful than Shields... And this basically makes 3 ARTI compulsory for all SWF builds over possibly using a shield.

Allow shields. Imagine the heavily armored fighter Varg was describing. He uses a single weapon, a heavy armor and...a shield of course! It must be the case that they work with shields, else my brain will melt.




This is a disgraceful argument that all of you kids seem to love to bring in the forums as some sort of golden rule that solves all the problems. Of course we should bring real life into it, even in a fantasy game; Its about ambience. When we say "swashbuckler" no one pictures a very skilled and swift mace fighter, let a lot a dude with a pick, heavy or light. We picture sabres(scimitars?), rapiers, foil; I personally like the idea of the guy fighting with a dagger on the offhand or between his teeth.

I find this overwhelmingly disappointing, specially coming from a community who (supposedly) came from PnP where ambience was actually very important. Its easy to neglect that in an MMO, it doesn't mean it HAS to be neglected.

Fencing weapons are notorious for their improved critical threat range (D&D wise; never seen an official foil though) which is very fitting imho. Also note that historically speaking those weapons were meant to pierce the armor of the opponent not by bruteforce, but by dexterity, hitting those "spots" that the armor couldn't protect well. That is "armor piercing", something DDO already has implemented, not +3065% attack speed nor +999% STR bonus damage; that is expanded critical range, oh lord, that is SEEKER, make a considerably large one! They crit often, they ignore fort, they receive considerably large bonus to crits, voilá DPS. Why does DPS need to come from the same old things, STR on top of STR? If anything, what difference makes if Cpt. Sparrow or Hulk pierces you with a rapier? (I know, Hulk would pierce AND THEN SMASH YOU). Are you really creating a new fighting style or just trying to fool us? Isn't this more of the same? I loved the initial idea of swashbuckler, and I was sorely disappointed when they announced these choices; they are unfitting and just remotely resemble the image we have from swashbucklers per se.

You seem to be caught in the fencer archetype. But rapiers are not the only weapon used with 1 hand. Think about the RL implications of using a single weapon.

1. Momentum behind your swings (compared to 2 weapons). Of course, this matters more for an axe than for a rapier...
2. Better accuracy.
3. Speed.

WHile I agree that making the momentum equal for both THF and SWF does not make sense, I still think STR should bring larger bonus for SWF than for TWF.

Truth is, TWF could have been balanced if the malus for fighting with 2 big weapons had not been reduced. The second weapon has always been about utility, not raw DPS. But with power creep (I laugh at -4 to hit or what not), since the to hit probability is already super high, this balance is broken. So SWG urgently needs more power.

So realism is not absent from the discussion, in the least.

PS - Your opening sentence belongs to the conversations that happen under the bridge, where those who cannot be named wait for villagers to try to cross the river...

[Nédime]

My own argument for this would be along the lines of:
The rune arm is the single item in the entirety of the game that only one type of person can learn to use. Orbs which are intended for casters can, with a single feat selection, be used by anyone, regardless of class. Even items designed specifically for a single class to use can be equipped by others, for example: the longsword "Divine Vengeance," which is only really worthwhile for paladins to use. Rune arms have a similar mechanic to that longsword already built in, in that much of it's usefulness is tied up in how many artificer levels you have. Adding on a further requirement of "must have 2 artificer levels to even equip it" changes it from a great item with a lot of potential, into an inconsistency in your game world (this is my perspective, not necessarily fact).

To take this further, even most items that you are not proficient with, you can still equip, with penalties. You can, if you so choose, equip a tower shield on a pure wizard, or a pure monk, or a pure rogue, none of which have actually taken the proficiency. They may even gain some benefit to doing so, while still suffering the penalties for it. Having the rune arm not even be able to be equipped as a non-proficient item makes this even more of an inconsistency.

As far as immersion goes, this item is one of the things that totally breaks it for me. I have characters with upwards of 60+ Use Magic Device skill, which are incidentally not artificers. The explaination to the arti-only part of the rune arm was that it was a complex magical device that only an artificer could figure out. I'm to lazy to find the quote on that as it was a long time ago, but that is what one of the devs stated. To me that was translated from dev-speak to player-speak as "All the characters you are playing with UMD are idiots unless they are artificers." Now that might be something of a mistranslation, but look at it from my perspective. My character is a grand master at "figuring out how to get magical devices to work" but he can't even stick his arm through the right sized hole and wear it like a bracelet, much less have a chance to figure out the device in his inventory.

As you have stated here that it is not a balance decision, and others have pointed out that much of it's functionality would be lost without artificer levels, I really don't understand the reasons behind this decision. Personally I would like to see it have a general feat for proficiency, that artificers get for free, and also Half Elf Artificer Dilettante count as an artificer for rune arm purposes equal to the artificer caster level it provides. This would open up a lot of interesting design choices and, in my opinion be something of an improvement on the "Everyone and there dog is a monk" game currently being played.

Artificers have other things going for them other than just rune arms. They have unique buffs, a powerful blade barrier, some amazing (my opinion) offensive spells, non-divine mass healing, and as you yourself pointed out, a combat pet. Allowing non-artificers to use rune arms would not make them less unique any more than letting non-wizards/sorcerers use orbs makes them less unique.

PS: I don't think adding a feat to gain a combat pet would take away from druids or artis either. Part of what makes them nice (again, my opinion) is the enhancements that improve them, and a feat would not give you those. Even if you did add this sort of thing, druids and artis could take it too... then they would be rather distinctive as the only classes that could have two combat pets. (Well pale masters also.) Of course I think adding in too many combat pets would be a bad idea, as the more you add the "pike while the computer plays" type of features, the less addicting your game will be.

Agreed.

[Nédime]

Huh??? Named Rapiers are in great supply? Can you list two good named Rapiers?

Or for a simpler question, list one good named Rapier below level 20.


Thunderforged isn't a named Rapier; you can get Thunderforged in Dagger, Mace, and whatever else, all with the same critical profile.

- Elemental rapier of air
- Turbulent epee
- Tyrzza's Bane

[Steelstar]

A Scimitar in DDO already is a Light weapon, if you're a Ranger.

Subject to change, but this is how the current implementation works; You can Swashbuckle with a Scimitar if you have the Ranger enhancement that turns it into a Light weapon.


Does this mean the Swashbuckling stance will not be broken when one uses a wand or scroll or does it mean that one will be able to fight like normal while holding a wand or scroll in one of their hands?

It means Swashbuckling stance will not be broken while using a Wand or Scroll in your main hand, provided you meet the other requirements of Swashbuckling (Light Armor, no/correct off-hand item, etc).

[Khatzhas]

This is a disgraceful argument that all of you kids seem to love to bring in the forums as some sort of golden rule that solves all the problems. Of course we should bring real life into it, even in a fantasy game; Its about ambience. When we say "swashbuckler" no one pictures a very skilled and swift mace fighter, let a lot a dude with a pick, heavy or light. We picture sabres(scimitars?), rapiers, foil; I personally like the idea of the guy fighting with a dagger on the offhand or between his teeth.

I find this overwhelmingly disappointing, specially coming from a community who (supposedly) came from PnP where ambience was actually very important. Its easy to neglect that in an MMO, it doesn't mean it HAS to be neglected.Ultimately, if the game itself doesn't work, ambience can only take you so far.
As it is however, D&D is an unholy mix of historical periods and settings that mean that a lot of real-life assumptions simply don't apply. "Swashbucklers" are from a different time period and background than most of the other D&D weapons in RL. In D&D swashbucklers mix with armoured knights, and greatclub-swinging barbarians. Even so, I'm pretty sure I've seen "swashbucklers" in films using mace-like objects like pokers, belaying pins, braziers etc.


Fencing weapons are notorious for their improved critical threat range (D&D wise; never seen an official foil though) which is very fitting imho. Also note that historically speaking those weapons were meant to pierce the armor of the opponent not by bruteforce, but by dexterity, hitting those "spots" that the armor couldn't protect well. No. Historically, fencing weapons were not generally used against armour at all: they developed from social fashions in cities where people didn't wear armour. While armour was still being worn on the battlefield, fencers would bring their swords to battle, not their rapiers.
Western sword techniques, particularly those of the longsword and single-handed swords already emphasised thrusting into less-well-protected areas when facing armoured opponents, well before fencing developed as a style.

Until you start talking about modern sport fencing, with its rules and whippy wire weapons, or hollywood-historical versions derived from that, strength still has a considerable part to play in fencing. Knocking your opponent's sword out of the way, or pushing past it through his guard are common techniques, even before you start bringing your off-hand and whatever that is holding into the mix. Likewise the weapons still required a certain level of power to control: sheer leverage on the long blade of even a thrusting weapon is needed for point control.


That is "armor piercing", something DDO already has implemented, not +3065% attack speed nor +999% STR bonus damage; that is expanded critical range, oh lord, that is SEEKER, make a considerably large one! They crit often, they ignore fort, they receive considerably large bonus to crits, voilá DPS. Why does DPS need to come from the same old things, STR on top of STR? If anything, what difference makes if Cpt. Sparrow or Hulk pierces you with a rapier? (I know, Hulk would pierce AND THEN SMASH YOU). Are you really creating a new fighting style or just trying to fool us? Isn't this more of the same? I loved the initial idea of swashbuckler, and I was sorely disappointed when they announced these choices; they are unfitting and just remotely resemble the image we have from swashbucklers per se. Because when Captn J. Sparrow doesn't hit exactly right or his opponent defends themselves, his thrust will be stopped by armour, a parry, magical field of force. Not to mention bones and similar obstructions even if he does get through.
The Hulk's thrust will punch through armour, is almost impossible to deflect, and will go right into the body (and possibly the person behind them).

I do agree that precision, crits, and extra damage should be SWF's thing, with some improved defence. I don't like the attack speed/doublestrike emphasis because we already have a "lots of hits on single target" style in TWF.

[mna]

Subject to change, but this is how the current implementation works; You can Swashbuckle with a Scimitar if you have the Ranger enhancement that turns it into a Light weapon.


BTW, was Improved Weapon Finesse already fixed to work with so lightened Scimitars? Because it used to not work, despite the text saying it should work.

(Yes, I tried to file a bug report, but apparently wasn't allowed due to being f2p or something... it was fairly soon after U19, haven't tested since.)

[mna]

Ultimately, if the game itself doesn't work, ambience can only take you so far.
As it is however, D&D is an unholy mix of historical periods and settings that mean that a lot of real-life assumptions simply don't apply. "Swashbucklers" are from a different time period and background than most of the other D&D weapons in RL. In D&D swashbucklers mix with armoured knights, and greatclub-swinging barbarians. Even so, I'm pretty sure I've seen "swashbucklers" in films using mace-like objects like pokers, belaying pins, braziers etc.

... candesticks, shovels, ... I'm pretty sure there was a riding crop once...

Swashbuckling in entertainment is about as much of a caricature of the real thing as Hollywood ninjas are.

Funny about the one thing that is NOT replicated from there, though - improvised weapons, clearly without nonproficiency penalty ;-) ...

That's even in BOTH ninjas and swashbucklers.


Oh, and greatclub-swinging barbarians? Those were a threat well into the 1600s in parts of Europe, if not longer.


No. Historically, fencing weapons were not generally used against armour at all: they developed from social fashions in cities where people didn't wear armour. While armour was still being worn on the battlefield, fencers would bring their swords to battle, not their rapiers.
Western sword techniques, particularly those of the longsword and single-handed swords already emphasised thrusting into less-well-protected areas when facing armoured opponents, well before fencing developed as a style.


Light pick, however, IS entirely appropriate against armored opponents. I understand these were carried as the better kind of backup sidearms in case of losing their horse, for battles between mounted knights...?

I'd also like to see the two-handed pick... not for swashbucklers obivously, but I believe that would've been the specialist "tank-vs-tank" weapon of the medieval unmounted ground battle without horses?

[Steiner-Davion]

Since I don't think we addressed it: We're letting you continue to Swashbuckle with a scroll or wand. Any chance of changing these to be equip-able in the off hand?



Really, the primary goal is to support players who envision themselves as fighting with a single weapon. Also very important is trying to develop a distinct playstyle such as THF or TWF as much as we can (which is probably the more difficult part).

Ok let me rephrase my question: How do you envision SWF to be distinct from TWF or THF? For example, do you envision it to be faster with higher chances to crit, but doing less dmg per hit on average on non crits?

And again please let's, lets work on developing SWF as a distinct style before developing or incorporating the Swashbuckler PrE into it. These should be two completely things, or rather SWF should be separate and Swashbuckler should build on top of it.



For Swashbucklers, it's the Musketeers. But it need not be limited to that.
Fair enough, though they wouldn't necessarily have been my first choice. I was thinking along the lines of Inigo Montoya and Wesley, aka The Dread Pirate Roberts, Zorro and Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, to name a few.

What I think a lot of people think of when they envision Swashbucklers, is a Highly skilled swordsman,, who, mainly uses only 1 weapon in their main hand (but can use both hands equally well with that weapon). They have a tendency to taunt their opponents while they fight, and use their environment to their utmost advantage, basically a very skilled and "honorable" duelist, who like to fight dirty using tricks and objects to their advantage.



This is why we're shying away.

We want Single Weapon Fighting feats to be viable and feel good for Heavy Armor builds, which means we don't want to add large amounts of Dodge into those feats, since much of that would end up wasted for those builds. We know that there's not necessarily obvious synergies SWF Heavy Armor Builds, but if you envision yourself as a Kensei in heavy armor with a single weapon, you shouldn't feel bad for playing that build. There's some other trees like Kensei that contain a good amount of combat-style agnostic abilities (or that aren't significantly better for TWF or THF, for instance), such as Occult Slayer, Eldritch Knight, and Warpriest (some of which support some other options, such as shield use, but a SWF is fairly conceivable).

While Swashbuckler contains more explicit support for SWF, using SWF with other trees should generally feel pretty good, unless it's something like Tempest that clearly caters to another combat style. And even then there's already some discussions about turning Scimitars into light weapons for use with Swashbuckler.
Thanks.