The Ultimate 1h Weapon: A reference thread for shielders

[BigErkyKid]

A comparison between 1h options


Weapons with glancing blows


Attack rotation strategies

[BigErkyKid]

reserved

[Eth]

Keep in mind most S/B use Bastard Swords or Dwarven Axes, because they give glancing blows while using a shield.
Neither of those weapons would.

I'd bet a Tier 3 TF Bastard Sword is the best choice for a S/B (First Degree Burns/Dragons Edge/Mortal Fear).

[TheLegendOfAra]

Keep in mind most S/B use Bastard Swords or Dwarven Axes, because they give glancing blows while using a shield.
Neither of those weapons would.

I'd bet a Tier 3 TF Bastard Sword is the best choice for a S/B (First Degree Burns/Dragons Edge/Mortal Fear).

This.
Although I've always wondered if glancing blows are really all that useful when tanking.
I'm sure they're nice when you're not tanking(assuming you use an axe or something when not tanking for more DPS.)
But I don't play S&B at all so I don't really know what I'm talking about.

[BigErkyKid]

Keep in mind most S/B use Bastard Swords or Dwarven Axes, because they give glancing blows while using a shield.
Neither of those weapons would.

I'd bet a Tier 3 TF Bastard Sword is the best choice for a S/B (First Degree Burns/Dragons Edge/Mortal Fear).

While I understand the boon of glancing blows, I am not sure they make up for the loss of dps. This is something to check. EDIT - checked!

I usually spam cleaves because momentum is where the damage really comes from.

Based on this thread

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/234160-Glancing-Blows-amp-CritHits-amp-Weapon-Effects


#1 - In response to one of my questions posted in the general forum -
"Glancing blows get normal, but hidden attack rolls. They use the same critical threat as you main attacks. However, all damage multipliers are always considered 1x, so there's no bonus damage

So if glancing blows only do regular damage, as it seems to be the case, I don't think they matter much.

In end game, all my damage is thought around crits. For a 6k trash mob, 100 up or down on a regular swing won't make a difference, IMHO.

[Eth]

While I understand the boon of glancing blows, I am not sure they make up for the loss of dps. This is something to check. EDIT - checked!

I usually spam cleaves because momentum is where the damage really comes from.

Based on this thread

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/234160-Glancing-Blows-amp-CritHits-amp-Weapon-Effects



So if glancing blows only do regular damage, as it seems to be the case, I don't think they matter much.

In end game, all my damage is thought around crits. For a 6k trash mob, 100 up or down on a regular swing won't make a difference, IMHO.

DPS is damage per second.
DPS is not big numbers.
Glancing blows are damage and you still cleave anyway. Cleaves give you glancing blows.
Infact the best way to max your DPS on a THF or S/B is:
1.Cleave/GCleave/MomentumSwing/LayWaste (best available)
2.Swing
3.Swing
4. back to 1
This gives you glancing blows on EVERY hit.

The damage can be very good and easily outdamage your slightly better crit. profile. depending on how many feats your build can invest.

On builds with more cleaves (Barb, Wizard) you could also use your cleaves after just 1 swing.

Something I see people do all the time is just hitting all their cleaves one after another and then swing away when they are on cooldown. Don't do that.

[BigErkyKid]

DPS is damage per second.
DPS is not big numbers.
Glancing blows are damage and you still cleave anyway. Cleaves give you glancing blows.
Infact the best way to max your DPS on a THF or S/B is:
1.Cleave/GCleave/MomentumSwing/LayWaste (best available)
2.Swing
3.Swing
4. back to 1
This gives you glancing blows on EVERY hit.

The damage can be very good and easily outdamage your slightly better crit. profile. depending on how many feats your build can invest.

On builds with more cleaves (Barb, Wizard) you could also use your cleaves after just 1 swing.

Something I see people do all the time is just hitting all their cleaves one after another and then swing away when they are on cooldown. Don't do that.


Thanks for your comment, but I don't share your opinion. At least based on what I have been computing.

First of all, the best damage sequence (for me) would be the momentum-cleave:

1. Waste
2. Momentum.
3. G. cleave
4. If momentum is available again (50% chance), momentum again. Otherwise cleave / whirlwind (need the timing).
5. G. cleave...etc.

Now as for glancing blows, I am not convinced they outdamage a better crit profile weapon.

Let's think about it. Investing everything you can into them, you will get 60% damage on glancing blows, with no crit multiplier.

One free glancing blow attack is made automatically against all enemies in a wide arc in front of your character on the first and fourth swing (if you have a fourth swing) of your attack sequence.

So this means that you get 1/2 glancing blow per hit, at 60% of the expected damage per hit. However, if you time well, you say you can get this every hit? Care to explain exactly how please? Suppose you were right. Let's add this in to the computations. To get an idea let me check nightmare vs mornh.

Nightmare (full LD and overwhelming crit)

1d12 - 6.5 average
Prob. any sort of crit: .15
Non crit hit: (2.5*6.5)+7=23.5
Crit hit tier 1: 46.5
Crit hit tier 2: 23.5*3=70.5
Expected damage:
(23.5*0.7)+( 46.5*0.2)+(70.5*0.1)=32.8.

Now adding your claim that you get a glancing blow on every hit, this would be: 32.8 + 23.5*0.6=46.9.

The Mornh gets 48.35 average so it is still better.

Now if you cannot get glancing on every hit, but rather every two hits as stated in the description, then you have : 32.8 + 23.5*0.6*0.5=39.85

Lets add +30 STR modifier to nightmare.

Non crit hit: (2.5*6.5)+7=23.5+30=53.5
Crit hit tier 1: 107
Crit hit tier 2: 23.5*3=160.5
Expected damage:
(53.5*0.7)+( 107*0.2)+(160.5*0.1)=74.9

Adding glancing blows every hit: 74.9+0.6*53.5=107

Adding glancing blows every other hit 74.9+0.6*53.5*0.5= 90.95.

Now take the nightmare to momentum hits.

Adding the damage to momentum swing (14-20 crit)
Non crit hit: ((2.5+5)*6.5)+7=55.75
Crit hit tier 1: 111.5
Crit hit tier 2: 30.75*5=167.25
Expected damage:
(55.75*0.7)+(111.5*0.2)+(167.25*0.1)=78.05

Adding one glancing per hit: 78.05+23.5*0.6=92.15
Adding one every 2 hits: 78.05+23.5*0.6*0.5=85.1

Adding STR+30
Non crit hit: 85.75
Crit hit tier 1: 171.5
Crit hit tier 1: 257.25
(85.75*0.7)+171.5*0.2)+(257.25*0.1)=120.05

Adding 1 glancing: 120.05 + 32.1= 152.15
Adding 1/2 glancing: 120.05+ 16.05 = 136.1

Both of them behind the mornh.

SO, to sum it up, giving a favourable scenario of +30 str bonus, we have that

Nightmare outside momentum:
Adding glancing blows every hit: 74.9+0.6*53.5=107
Adding glancing blows every other hit 74.9+0.6*53.5*0.5= 90.95.

Mornh outside momentum
(50.75*0.7)+(152.3*0.2)+(253.75*0.1)=91.36

Nightmare momentum
Adding 1 glancing: 120.05 + 32.1= 152.15
Adding 1/2 glancing: 120.05+ 16.05 = 136.1

Mornh momentum
(78.25*0.6)+(234.75*0.3)+(391.25*0.1)=156.5

The comparison with Adaxus is

Adaxus outside momentum
81.2

Adaxus momentum
(78.25*0.75)+(547.75*0.25)=195.625


Of course you have to add considerations of the number of enemies fighting at the same time, whether you want to move much or not...

Additionaly, everything that expands the pre crit damage further will favor crit based weapons. Deadly for instance. Seeker (not for Mornh), exceptional seeker...

We may crunch the numbers for other weapons. But overall I don't think that glancing blows clearly outclass better crit profile weapons. Give me some numbers if you disagree! :D

[viktorserak]

DPS is damage per second.
DPS is not big numbers.
Glancing blows are damage and you still cleave anyway. Cleaves give you glancing blows.


The damage can be very good and easily outdamage your slightly better crit. profile. depending on how many feats your build can invest.


This.

While tanking a single boss /Dracolich or Dragon, currently) it may be a different story.

While dealing with trash, Bastard Swords and Daxes will always pull ahead because of the glancing blows. Ofc, assuming you arent comparing Adaxus with Prisonbreak. Cause Prisonbreak is so weak, it shoul not be taken into question :-)

OP may or may not agree with it - but it changes nothing about the fact it is true.

[viktorserak]

Thanks for your comment, but I don't share your opinion. At least based on what I have been computing.

First of all, the best damage sequence (for me) would be the momentum-cleave:

1. Waste
2. Momentum.
3. G. cleave
4. If momentum is available again (50% chance), momentum again. Otherwise cleave / whirlwind (need the timing).
5. G. cleave...etc.

Now as for glancing blows, I am not convinced they outdamage a better crit profile weapon.

Let's think about it. Investing everything you can into them, you will get 60% damage on glancing blows, with no crit multiplier.

One free glancing blow attack is made automatically against all enemies in a wide arc in front of your character on the first and fourth swing (if you have a fourth swing) of your attack sequence.

So this means that you get 1/2 glancing blow per hit, at 60% of the expected damage per hit. However, if you time well, you say you can get this every hit? Care to explain exactly how please? Suppose you were right. Let's add this in to the computations. To get an idea let me check nightmare vs mornh.

Nightmare (full LD and overwhelming crit)

1d12 - 6.5 average
Prob. any sort of crit: .15
Non crit hit: (2.5*6.5)+7=23.5
Crit hit tier 1: 46.5
Crit hit tier 2: 23.5*3=70.5
Expected damage:
(23.5*0.7)+( 46.5*0.2)+(70.5*0.1)=32.8.

Now adding your claim that you get a glancing blow on every hit, this would be: 32.8 + 23.5*0.6=46.9.

The Mornh gets 48.35 average so it is still better.

Now if you cannot get glancing on every hit, but rather every two hits as stated in the description, then you have : 32.8 + 23.5*0.6*0.5=39.85

Lets add +30 STR modifier to nightmare.

Non crit hit: (2.5*6.5)+7=23.5+30=53.5
Crit hit tier 1: 107
Crit hit tier 2: 23.5*3=160.5
Expected damage:
(53.5*0.7)+( 107*0.2)+(160.5*0.1)=74.9

Adding glancing blows every hit: 74.9+0.6*53.5=107

Adding glancing blows every other hit 74.9+0.6*53.5*0.5= 90.95.

Now take the nightmare to momentum hits.

Adding the damage to momentum swing (14-20 crit)
Non crit hit: ((2.5+5)*6.5)+7=55.75
Crit hit tier 1: 111.5
Crit hit tier 2: 30.75*5=167.25
Expected damage:
(55.75*0.7)+(111.5*0.2)+(167.25*0.1)=78.05

Adding one glancing per hit: 78.05+23.5*0.6=92.15
Adding one every 2 hits: 78.05+23.5*0.6*0.5=85.1

Adding STR+30
Non crit hit: 85.75
Crit hit tier 1: 171.5
Crit hit tier 1: 257.25
(85.75*0.7)+171.5*0.2)+(257.25*0.1)=120.05

Adding 1 glancing: 120.05 + 32.1= 152.15
Adding 1/2 glancing: 120.05+ 16.05 = 136.1

Both of them behind the mornh.

SO, to sum it up, giving a favourable scenario of +30 str bonus, we have that

Nightmare outside momentum:
Adding glancing blows every hit: 74.9+0.6*53.5=107
Adding glancing blows every other hit 74.9+0.6*53.5*0.5= 90.95.

Mornh outside momentum
(50.75*0.7)+(152.3*0.2)+(253.75*0.1)=91.36

Nightmare momentum
Adding 1 glancing: 120.05 + 32.1= 152.15
Adding 1/2 glancing: 120.05+ 16.05 = 136.1

Mornh momentum
(78.25*0.6)+(234.75*0.3)+(391.25*0.1)=156.5

The comparison with Adaxus is

Adaxus outside momentum
81.2

Adaxus momentum
(78.25*0.75)+(547.75*0.25)=195.625


Of course you have to add considerations of the number of enemies fighting at the same time, whether you want to move much or not...

Additionaly, everything that expands the pre crit damage further will favor crit based weapons. Deadly for instance. Seeker (not for Mornh), exceptional seeker...

We may crunch the numbers for other weapons. But overall I don't think that glancing blows clearly outclass better crit profile weapons. Give me some numbers if you disagree! :D


Also, you arent counting in a LOT of stuff (For instance, Nightmare is well known for its Life stealing ability. If that proc early, it will easily outDPS Morhn and Adaxus by a long way.
¨
I know you mentioned you arent counting that in, but when you are comparing specific weapons, then not counting makes your math... well, useless.

[BigErkyKid]

This.

While tanking a single boss /Dracolich or Dragon, currently) it may be a different story.

While dealing with trash, Bastard Swords and Daxes will always pull ahead because of the glancing blows. Ofc, assuming you arent comparing Adaxus with Prisonbreak. Cause Prisonbreak is so weak, it shoul not be taken into question :-)

OP may or may not agree with it - but it changes nothing about the fact it is true.

Give me the numbers and I will believe it. Stating it is true means nothing to me ;)

[capsela]

Morne is ML23 vs TF ML27.

[viktorserak]

Give me the numbers and I will believe it. Stating it is true means nothing to me ;)

I am not spending that much time on this issue to break out math in here. But I am talking from rather vast experience.

And more importantly: I dont care if you believe it or not.

You named this thread "a reference thread for shielders" - and you are stating infromation, that is incorrect. Some new player (or new to the playstyle) may get confused by it. ¨
So I am talking to them - Daxes and Bswords are always better against trash then anything else on a shielder (assuming you have a decent one). And dont forget to back em up with THF line for more glancing dmg and most importantly, glancing blows procs.

To the OP - Since you mentioned Nightmare, let imagine a rather common scenario in this game - you get swarmed by 4 mobs.
1. You take out Adaxus and you take them one by one (or dmg them one by one while your party members kill em). You will, ofc, get some group dmg on them via cleave-like attacks.
2. You take out Nightmare and with every single of you attacks (assuming you can keep them from attacking you from behind), you will damage all of them at the same time. More imortantly, even after it was nerfed, Nightmare will very likely proc several times before you kill them (assuming EE mobs), which can instantly damage any mob for even thousands of hit points (depends on the mob). The cleaves with the life stealing are even more beautiful.

[BigErkyKid]

I am not spending that much time on this issue to break out math in here. But I am talking from rather vast experience.

And more importantly: I dont care if you believe it or not.

You named this thread "a reference thread for shielders" - and you are stating infromation, that is incorrect. Some new player (or new to the playstyle) may get confused by it. ¨
So I am talking to them - Daxes and Bswords are always better against trash then anything else on a shielder (assuming you have a decent one). And dont forget to back em up with THF line for more glancing dmg and most importantly, glancing blows procs.

To the OP - Since you mentioned Nightmare, let imagine a rather common scenario in this game - you get swarmed by 4 mobs.
1. You take out Adaxus and you take them one by one (or dmg them one by one while your party members kill em). You will, ofc, get some group dmg on them via cleave-like attacks.
2. You take out Nightmare and with every single of you attacks (assuming you can keep them from attacking you from behind), you will damage all of them at the same time. More imortantly, even after it was nerfed, Nightmare will very likely proc several times before you kill them (assuming EE mobs), which can instantly damage any mob for even thousands of hit points (depends on the mob). The cleaves with the life stealing are even more beautiful.

I don't know what to tell you. People have been claiming bswords are the best for S/B and I wanted to check it by myself with some numbers. You tell me numbers are not the answer we should focus on conventional wisdom...OK. It doesn't cut it for me.

[Eth]

1. Waste
2. Momentum.
3. G. cleave
4. If momentum is available again (50% chance), momentum again. Otherwise cleave / whirlwind (need the timing).
5. G. cleave...etc.

You understand the concept of cooldowns? This doesn't make sense. You cannot continiously do that.

In fact if you play the game you would know that spamming momentum swing is the worst thing you can do, since it's cooldown on hotbars is bugged and sometimes shows it is off timer, although it isn't.
If you use it anyway this results in your character making the momentum swing animation yet you only get a single attack without the bonuses, therefore losing 4-5 attacks.

You always want to wait 2-3 swings to make sure it really is off timer.



One free glancing blow attack is made automatically against all enemies in a wide arc in front of your character on the first and fourth swing (if you have a fourth swing) of your attack sequence.

Reread my post. You can get glancing blows on every swing.
Maybe this was not clear to you but cleaves reset your attack sequence.
If you alter between your first swing and cleave only you get glancing blows on ALL attacks.
If you are haste boosted and/or lack a large variety of cleave abilities you want to make two swings, which will not give you a glancing blow on that one attack.


Now if you actually did the math on the weapon I proposed, instead of Nightmare, you would realize that there are also some heavy extra procs on it.
13-94 extra damage on every hit and 33-105 additional on 17-20 is huge.
Don't even get me started on the 5% mortal fear proc.
Vulnerability is big extra DPS against bosses.
Fort. bypass is very important in current endgame.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I am not spending that much time on this issue to break out math in here. But I am talking from rather vast experience.

And more importantly: I dont care if you believe it or not.

You named this thread "a reference thread for shielders" - and you are stating infromation, that is incorrect. Some new player (or new to the playstyle) may get confused by it. ¨
So I am talking to them - Daxes and Bswords are always better against trash then anything else on a shielder (assuming you have a decent one). And dont forget to back em up with THF line for more glancing dmg and most importantly, glancing blows procs.

Absolutely. There's not much sense in talking a strict numbers game, since S+B is generally the bottom tier of melee DPS (and if we're talking epic tier, further underneath casting and ranged burst). For bosses glancing blows won't matter, but 95% of the time you'll be gathering trash in a group and tanking. Glancing blows keep mob attention on you while your cleaves are on cooldown.

[viktorserak]

Absolutely. There's not much sense in talking a strict numbers game, since S+B is generally the bottom tier of melee DPS (and if we're talking epic tier, further underneath casting and ranged burst). For bosses glancing blows won't matter, but 95% of the time you'll be gathering trash in a group and tanking. Glancing blows keep mob attention on you while your cleaves are on cooldown.

Yep, exactly. Seems only OP doesnt believe its importance.

[Eth]

Nightmare (full LD and overwhelming crit)

1d12 - 6.5 average
Prob. any sort of crit: .15
Non crit hit: (2.5*6.5)+7=23.5
Crit hit tier 1: 46.5
Crit hit tier 2: 23.5*3=70.5
Expected damage:
(23.5*0.7)+( 46.5*0.2)+(70.5*0.1)=32.8.

Now adding your claim that you get a glancing blow on every hit, this would be: 32.8 + 23.5*0.6=46.9.

The Mornh gets 48.35 average so it is still better.


Also your numbers???
You calculate Mornh with this:
In LD with IC bludgeoning, overwhelming critical, devastating critical and pulverizer

Yet you calculate Nightmare with only x3 tier 2. Nightmare can have overwhelming and devastating, too, so x4.

Also, I really don't get your calculations.
(23.5*0.7)+( 46.5*0.2)+(70.5*0.1)=32.8.
Care to explain?
70% normal hits? 20% crits? 10% crits 19-20?
You realize you miss on a 1?

[BigErkyKid]

Alright, so first of all, before I generate more threat and aggro everyone on the forums, I stated that this is part of my research on how to bring up DPS. The first line is don't trust my numbers, in order to prompt more people checking themselves. So don't go aggressive on me, I am more than willing to accept that bsword is the best. If it is, that is.

Now to the comments.


1. Glancing blows on every hit.

I am aware that cleave resets the animation. However, cleave has a cooldown. So would you mind going with me through your sequence?

1.Cleave/GCleave/MomentumSwing/LayWaste (best available) ---> glancing
2.Swing ---> glancing because it counts as first hit.
3.Swing ----> not glancing. Or is it? If so, why.
4. back to 1 ---> cleave already out of cooldown?

1. My momentum-cleave sequence.

I understand cooldowns. I play this build, not just claim stuff about it. Now I understand that the waste part was misleading or poorly writen. As I state, I base my attacks in alternating cleaves and momentums. Waste is something I throw in whenever it comes out of cooldown.

I have taken g cleave, cleave and whirlwind attack. So I have plenty of stuff to take momentum out of cooldown. So, the basic sequence when waste is on cooldown is.

1. Momentum.
2. Great cleave.
3. Momentum if possible, otherwise either whirlwind or cleave (whirlwind interrupts a bit too much your attack sequence for my taste).
4. Momentum if possible, otherwise the last cleave.

etc. basically you want momentum and the rest is a filler.


Why I think this may have some merits

1. I still grab aggro.
2. It focuses more on single mob damage, bringing it down faster: I think this is important because even for a tank getting many mobs on you for too long is mean in EE.

So the way I see it, adds more focused DPS and perhaps this is a viable gameplay, specially for uber powerful mobs like the ones in EE.

PS - With no damage boosts (divine might or any temporary damage boost) I hit 1K damage with momentum in LD. This is outside blitz. Otherwise, momentum crits go from 500-1000k. Again, no boosts of any sort AFAI recall. For me and without TF weapons this is significantly better than what I was doing before in terms of single target DPS-

[Eth]

Alright, so first of all, before I generate more threat and aggro everyone on the forums, I stated that this is part of my research on how to bring up DPS. The first line is don't trust my numbers, in order to prompt more people checking themselves. So don't go aggressive on me, I am more than willing to accept that bsword is the best. If it is, that is.

Now to the comments.


1. Glancing blows on every hit.

I am aware that cleave resets the animation. However, cleave has a cooldown. So would you mind going with me through your sequence?

1.Cleave/GCleave/MomentumSwing/LayWaste (best available) ---> glancing
2.Swing ---> glancing because it counts as first hit.
3.Swing ----> not glancing. Or is it? If so, why.
4. back to 1 ---> cleave already out of cooldown?

1. You use the best available off cooldown. Lay Waste > Momentum > GCleave > Cleave
2. you do a normal swing
3. you swing again or repeat step 1. (this depends on cooldown management/resets/attack speed/availability of more cleave like attacks - surpreme cleave, eldritch strike, quick strike etc.)

Whirlwind attack was completely broken afaik giving you a lot less attacks than just normal swinging, except you fight unarmed. Is this still the case?




1. Momentum.
2. Great cleave.
3. Momentum if possible, otherwise either whirlwind or cleave (whirlwind interrupts a bit too much your attack sequence for my taste).
4. Momentum if possible, otherwise the last cleave.

Read my comment why you should not spam momentum swing.


Also here's my calculation for Nightmare vs. Mornh without anything other than raw weapon damage and crit. profiles:
Nightmare:
(23.5*15+47*2+94*2)/20=31.725 (15 normal - 2 crits x2 - 2 crits x4)

with Glancing Blows:
31.725 + 23.5*0.95*0.6 = 45.12


Mornh:
(20.75*13+62,25*4+103.75*2)/20=36.3125 (13 normal - 4 crits x3 - 2 crits x5)


Still this leaves out to much to be worth anything in my opinion.

[Loromir]

Morne is ML23 vs TF ML27.

He's comparing Mornh to TF tier1 which is ML 24 or 25. Not that big a difference in ML.

[viktorserak]

I have taken g cleave, cleave and whirlwind attack. So I have plenty of stuff to take momentum out of cooldown. So, the basic sequence when waste is on cooldown is.


Whirlwind is broken, or at least, it was, one update ago. Since I saw nothing in notes, I dont believe it was fixed. It has been broken for years.

You can get more dmg if you invest the feats you choosed towards Whirlwind into THF and go with bsword or Daxe.

[BigErkyKid]

1. You use the best available off cooldown. Lay Waste > Momentum > GCleave > Cleave
2. you do a normal swing
3. you swing again or repeat step 1. (this depends on cooldown management/resets/attack speed/availability of more cleave like attacks - surpreme cleave)

Whirlwind attack was completely broken afaik giving you a lot less attacks than just normall swinging, except you fight unarmed. Is this still the case?



Read my comment why you should not spam momentum swing.


Also here's my calculation for Nightmare vs. Mornh without anything other than raw weapon damage and crit. profiles:
Nightmare:
(23.5*15+47*2+94*2)/20=31.725 (15 normal - 2 crits x2 - 2 crits x4)

with Glancing Blows:
31.725 + 23.5*0.95*0.6 = 45,12


Mornh:
(20.75*13+62,25*4+103.75*2)/20=36.3125 (13 normal - 4 crits x3 - 2 crits x5)


Mornh is (20.75*13+62.25*4+153.75*2)/20 = 41.31

But how do you get glancing on every blow?


1. You use the best available off cooldown. Lay Waste > Momentum > GCleave > Cleave
2. you do a normal swing
3. you swing again or repeat step 1. (this depends on cooldown management/resets/attack speed/availability of more cleave like attacks - surpreme cleave)

It seems to me that realistically speaking you can get 2/3 glancing blows. I might be wrong.

In any case, the whole strategy is based on momentum to take advantage of Adaxus and its wonderful crits.

[Kalimah]

While I understand the boon of glancing blows, I am not sure they make up for the loss of dps. This is something to check. EDIT - checked!

I usually spam cleaves because momentum is where the damage really comes from.

Based on this thread

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/234160-Glancing-Blows-amp-CritHits-amp-Weapon-Effects



So if glancing blows only do regular damage, as it seems to be the case, I don't think they matter much.

In end game, all my damage is thought around crits. For a 6k trash mob, 100 up or down on a regular swing won't make a difference, IMHO.

Erk are you planning on blitzing?

[Eth]

Mornh is (20.75*13+62.25*4+153.75*2)/20 = 41.31

20.75 * 5 = 103.75



But how do you get glancing on every blow?

How often do I have to repeat myself?
By altering any type of cleave attack that gives glancing blows and a normal swing.
If you can get it on every swing depends on your build.
Barb/Wiz/Whatever could spam Cleave/GCleave/Surp.Cleave/Eldritch Strike/Mom.Swing/LayWaste. One of those should always be off cooldown after a normal swing.

If you factor a build that uses haste boosts it is more realistic to have
Cleave-Attack+swing+swing. Repeat.

[BigErkyKid]

20.75 * 5 = 103.75


How often do I have to repeat myself?
By altering any type of cleave attack that gives glancing blows and a normal swing.
If you can get it on every swing depends on your build.
Barb/Wiz/Whatever could spam Cleave/GCleave/Surp.Cleave/Eldritch Strike/Mom.Swing/LayWaste. One of those should always be off cooldown after a normal swing.

If you factor a build that uses haste boosts it is more realistic to have
Cleave-Attack+swing+swing. Repeat.


Mornh is seeker. Hence 20+10.

We are talking about shielders here, usually not so many cleaves unless you build for it specifically.



If you factor a build that uses haste boosts it is more realistic to have
Cleave-Attack+swing+swing. Repeat

So 2 glancing blows out of 3? Or am I counting it wrong?

[Eth]

Mornh is seeker. Hence 20+10.

Because slotting seeker somewhere else is impossibru?



We are talking about shielders here, usually not so many cleaves unless you build for it specifically.

So 2 glancing blows out of 3? Or am I counting it wrong?
Yes.

Also keep in mind glancing blows count for all mobs near you.
So spreadsheet vs. actual gameplay.

[EllisDee37]

For bosses glancing blows won't matterAttacking a single enemy generates glancing blows, all of which hit the single target. You can confirm this on the training dummy.

[BigErkyKid]

Because slotting seeker somewhere else is impossibru?


Yes.

Also keep in mind glancing blows count for all mobs near you.
So spreadsheet vs. actual gameplay.

No, mornh is seeker itself.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mornh,_Hammer_of_the_Mountains

PS - You mean you would slot it elsewhere and be done with it. Yup, you could do that. In any case I think mornh is suboptimal anyway.

My choice right now is Adaxus, for this momentum strategy.

[BigErkyKid]

Erk are you planning on blitzing?

I don't blitz right now, mostly because I group and also because I want to test what I can do without blitz...

Blitz is just a multiplier, after all. So if I say 1k damage, with blitz its 2,5K.

[Eth]

No, mornh is seeker itself.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mornh,_Hammer_of_the_Mountains

I really hope you are not just trolling, but that's exactly why I came off 'aggro' in first posts.
You make a post that Mornh is the best S/B weapon arguing against people that actually have some clue on the matter and backing up your point with such hilarious math.

You take the absolutely lowest damage since you leave out every single damage mod, only taking the absolute base damage when you compare your weapons.
Then you add +10 just for Mornh on all crits, because it comes with seeker. A 50% base-damage increase on crits for your calculation!
Sorry, but you have to be kidding me if you don't understand what's wrong with that.

I'm to lazy to do the math, but with that nonsense I can probably make Deathnip a better weapon than the ESOS, even if I wear nothing in my offhand and just one-hand it.

[BigErkyKid]

I really hope you are not just trolling, but that's exactly why I came off 'aggro' in first posts.
You make a post that Mornh is the best S/B weapon arguing against people that actually have some clue on the matter and backing up your point with such hilarious math.

You take the absolutely lowest damage since you leave out every single damage mod, only taking the absolute base damage when you compare your weapons.
Then you add +10 just for Mornh on all crits, because it comes with seeker. A 50% base-damage increase on crits for your calculation!
Sorry, but you have to be kidding me if you don't understand what's wrong with that.

I'm to lazy to do the math, but with that nonsense I can probably make Deathnip a better weapon than the ESOS, even if I wear nothing in my offhand and just one-hand it.

Check my previous post. I am fine with you slotting seeker elsewhere. I didn't start this post claiming Mornh is the best. I started by saying that mornh has been pointed out to be great as a 1handed weapon. Then I compared it to a TF tier 1, because I think it is relatively easy to get one.

Then I continued with this point of single target DPS perhaps being an alternative to glancing blows. I brought up that if that was the case, Adaxus seems better than mornh at it.

So no trolling, everything honest.

PD - Although you have a valid point with seeker, I just added it since it is part of the weapon. Losen the aggro, there is no need for it.

[Eth]

Check my previous post. I am fine with you slotting seeker elsewhere. I didn't start this post claiming Mornh is the best. I started by saying that mornh has been pointed out to be great as a 1handed weapon.

It is. Check my ranger build. I've been using it since 2012. Yet you are not TWF. You want it for S/B.
That's a big difference, since you have the option for glancing blows with S/B.



Then I continued with this point of single target DPS perhaps being an alternative to glancing blows.

Glancing blows work against single targets.



So no trolling, everything honest.



PD - Although you have a valid point with seeker, I just added it since it is part of the weapon. Losen the aggro, there is no need for it.

Good, then don't make posts like this setting people up, when your numbers make little sense to what's actually happening ingame:

I don't know what to tell you. People have been claiming bswords are the best for S/B and I wanted to check it by myself with some numbers. You tell me numbers are not the answer we should focus on conventional wisdom...OK. It doesn't cut it for me.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Attacking a single enemy generates glancing blows, all of which hit the single target. You can confirm this on the training dummy.

Right, but I was thinking in terms of managing aggro. Even with nightmare procs, the damage is secondary to hate-generating enhancements. Maybe I'm wrong in assuming the discussion is even about tank builds, but if that's not the idea why go S+B?

[BigErkyKid]

It is. Check my ranger build. I've been using it since 2012. Yet you are not TWF. You want it for S/B.
That's a big difference, since you have the option for glancing blows with S/B.


Glancing blows work against single targets.




I am aware, but for single targets, I still think that the momentum strategy with Adaxus goes ahead in terms of single target DPS to the nightmare. You don't think so?

I wonder what would it look like with a TF dwarven axe, still using momentum but not giving up fully on glancing.

[Eth]

I am aware, but for single targets, I still think that the momentum strategy with Adaxus goes ahead in terms of single target DPS to the nightmare. You don't think so?

I wonder what would it look like with a TF dwarven axe, still using momentum but not giving up fully on glancing.

Like I said - why Nightmare? It's not the best BS. Thunderforged Bastard Sword is.

[BigErkyKid]

Like I said - why Nightmare? It's not the best BS. Thunderforged Bastard Sword is.

Well, what tier are you thinking? So far I was focusing on relatively easy to get weapons.

PS - its a pita to get any of them, but tier 3 does require a lot of effort.

[Powskier]

I use adaxus and it is awsome when rolling crits,really shines w perfect 2 whepon,and two of em flyin. I'm really liking the two handed axe now though.I still switch to shield for brutal battles smtimes.But, my base damage without any xtras is mid 90s-120 with the CITW axe;add cleaves ,my regular hits are 120's -150's in damage(crits deal 750ish-2000s). Thats w planar conflux ,making a PRR 82 against melee damage. The difference i really like is not having to get to close to enemies w 2 hander;dwarf axe(my former fav)cant reach Lolth in CITW and requires melee to get into the enemies hit range more often .....>I am interested in knowing how shield block works for players in tougher content;I was suprised to find I could shield block (w shift)and stop vast majority of epic giant damage.

[BigErkyKid]

Update: I was checking this thread and it got me thinking. The high crit profile is good for single target DPS in combination with momentum. But the glancing blows are a nice addition to damage, plus to multiple targets. So I checked and the dwarven axe has a good combination of both, only coming slightly behind Adaxus without the glancing in single target dps. It should be ahead once you add the glances.

So it seems to me that this would be the ultimate shielder weapon :).

This is a good example of a thread that has actually been helpful, as opposed to a clash of goats. I appreciate the input and if you still think I am missing something else, please do point it out.

[Eth]

Hope you mean this one: http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Duergar_Waraxe_of_the_Weapon_Master ;) (not easy to aquire though)

[Wongar]

Update: I was checking this thread and it got me thinking. The high crit profile is good for single target DPS in combination with momentum. But the glancing blows are a nice addition to damage, plus to multiple targets. So I checked and the dwarven axe has a good combination of both, only coming slightly behind Adaxus without the glancing in single target dps. It should be ahead once you add the glances.

So it seems to me that this would be the ultimate shielder weapon :).

This is a good example of a thread that has actually been helpful, as opposed to a clash of goats. I appreciate the input and if you still think I am missing something else, please do point it out.

I'll add my personal opinion based on both math and actual gameplay. I have an epic competitionist that did all 12 lives as a S&B build. I also build a very involved model to try and figure out what the best set up would be and tested each that looked promising through gameplay.

My findings: What is best will depend heaviliy on your playstyle and the playstlye of any group you are running with - there is no "BEST" or "ULTIMATE" setup.

If you want to make your model more closely resemble actual results, a few things to consider:
- You can not ignore special weapon procs
- You can not ignore glancing blows and procs from glancing blows
- You can not assume every critical threat is a critical hit
- You can not assume you can bypass fort on every mob
- You must account for fighting multiple mobs at one time
- You can not know how the actual numbers are calculated in game (Best guess :))
- You should take into account shield bashes

How I modeled it - calculate the number of swings to kill a cluster of mobs
Main Variables: Base Weapon Stats, Special Weapon Procs, Combat modifiers from feats/Enhancements/destinies, Number of Mobs, Fortification and Vulnerabilities of mobs, and perhaps most importantly assumptions on how things work

As you can see, there are a lot of moving parts in the model so you can't look at one thing (crit profile for example) by itself. I believe the best approach to modeling actual gameplay DPS is minimize the number of swings it takes to kill a pack of mobs. This was the best I could get to having my math "match" game experience.

My playstyle in EH and lower level EE is to gather as many mobs as possible then take them down as quick as possible. The typical S&B build has lower base DPS but can easily do more overall DPS using this method as you can maximize the use of your short term boosts/abilities and minimize the need to be healed.

Given my playstyle, I found that getting average damage up and maxing glancing blows and glancing blow procs was the best for me. Before thunderforge weapons, my best setup was shield with bash in off hand and a Mountain Fist DAxe in main hand. I carried 4 Mountain Fists - my default had Fire, Acid, and Cold damage augments and the other three were slotted Fire/Fire/Fire, Acid/Acid/Acid, and Cold/Cold/Cold. As my memory is not great about what mobs are vulnerable/immune to what I would lead off with the 3 different slots then change to the damage type that gave purple numbers, or at least to one that did damage. This setup didn't give me giant numbers - but it gave a very good stream of reasonably high numbers that killed packs quickly. If you don't believe that glancing blows and procs make a difference, take a Fire Weapon into Trial By Fire or a Cold weapon into DA and fight large packs. If you don't have the TWF feats, test it in Fury of the Wild as you can get all three with procs for a short time with Unbridled Fury.

With the last update I now carry two Upgraded Thunder Forged DAxes - one focused on fire and one on negative energy so I can switch as needed and a PDK shield in the off hand. The PDK shield with it's 3000HP vorpal and bash at 55% or 70% do enough to be quite meaningful.

As a side note, I much prefer playing in Divine Crusader to LD - both solo and groups, especially if pugs. Sure, I don't get the big numbers but it is much more group friendly and I can solo faster in DC without the aggravation on keeping blitz going (portals.) Just something to consider. Again - based heavily on my playstyle and everyone plays different but for me - DC gives better DPS than LD because I can finish the quest faster which means I killed things quicker which means I did more DPS.

OP - Your numbers seem to be focused on DPS against a single target - play the way you'd like but from my perspective you are giving up most of what S&B brings to the table by only considering one mob at a time. If you really only want to go one-on-one you would be much better off looking at a TWF build as they will almost always come out ahead in single target DPS and you can easily get enough defense against a single target even in EE without needing a shield or stances.

[BigErkyKid]

I'll add my personal opinion based on both math and actual gameplay. I have an epic competitionist that did all 12 lives as a S&B build. I also build a very involved model to try and figure out what the best set up would be and tested each that looked promising through gameplay.

My findings: What is best will depend heaviliy on your playstyle and the playstlye of any group you are running with - there is no "BEST" or "ULTIMATE" setup.

If you want to make your model more closely resemble actual results, a few things to consider:
- You can not ignore special weapon procs
- You can not ignore glancing blows and procs from glancing blows
- You can not assume every critical threat is a critical hit
- You can not assume you can bypass fort on every mob
- You must account for fighting multiple mobs at one time
- You can not know how the actual numbers are calculated in game (Best guess :))
- You should take into account shield bashes

How I modeled it - calculate the number of swings to kill a cluster of mobs
Main Variables: Base Weapon Stats, Special Weapon Procs, Combat modifiers from feats/Enhancements/destinies, Number of Mobs, Fortification and Vulnerabilities of mobs, and perhaps most importantly assumptions on how things work

As you can see, there are a lot of moving parts in the model so you can't look at one thing (crit profile for example) by itself. I believe the best approach to modeling actual gameplay DPS is minimize the number of swings it takes to kill a pack of mobs. This was the best I could get to having my math "match" game experience.

My playstyle in EH and lower level EE is to gather as many mobs as possible then take them down as quick as possible. The typical S&B build has lower base DPS but can easily do more overall DPS using this method as you can maximize the use of your short term boosts/abilities and minimize the need to be healed.

Given my playstyle, I found that getting average damage up and maxing glancing blows and glancing blow procs was the best for me. Before thunderforge weapons, my best setup was shield with bash in off hand and a Mountain Fist DAxe in main hand. I carried 4 Mountain Fists - my default had Fire, Acid, and Cold damage augments and the other three were slotted Fire/Fire/Fire, Acid/Acid/Acid, and Cold/Cold/Cold. As my memory is not great about what mobs are vulnerable/immune to what I would lead off with the 3 different slots then change to the damage type that gave purple numbers, or at least to one that did damage. This setup didn't give me giant numbers - but it gave a very good stream of reasonably high numbers that killed packs quickly. If you don't believe that glancing blows and procs make a difference, take a Fire Weapon into Trial By Fire or a Cold weapon into DA and fight large packs. If you don't have the TWF feats, test it in Fury of the Wild as you can get all three with procs for a short time with Unbridled Fury.

With the last update I now carry two Upgraded Thunder Forged DAxes - one focused on fire and one on negative energy so I can switch as needed and a PDK shield in the off hand. The PDK shield with it's 3000HP vorpal and bash at 55% or 70% do enough to be quite meaningful.

As a side note, I much prefer playing in Divine Crusader to LD - both solo and groups, especially if pugs. Sure, I don't get the big numbers but it is much more group friendly and I can solo faster in DC without the aggravation on keeping blitz going (portals.) Just something to consider. Again - based heavily on my playstyle and everyone plays different but for me - DC gives better DPS than LD because I can finish the quest faster which means I killed things quicker which means I did more DPS.

OP - Your numbers seem to be focused on DPS against a single target - play the way you'd like but from my perspective you are giving up most of what S&B brings to the table by only considering one mob at a time. If you really only want to go one-on-one you would be much better off looking at a TWF build as they will almost always come out ahead in single target DPS and you can easily get enough defense against a single target even in EE without needing a shield or stances.


Well first for a good post on the topic, I am sure people will find it helpful.

Regarding modeling the damage, it is hard but if to a first order approx a weapon comes much ahead, then it already points out something.

In my understanding, the TF dwarxe, even a first tier 1, seems much ahead in two dimensions I worried about. First, single target DPS, with momentum. And second, the nice aspect of the glancing blows (which again do matter for single target too, but are specially interesting for overall addition to damage).

It seemed to me that before checking the numbers for this weapon, Adaxus was ahead in single target DPS. At least compared to weapons equally "exotic" or difficult to acquire.

Now in terms of gameplay and what not, I agree that big numbers are not the ultimate goal. But for the dwarxe, there doesn't seem to be a competitor in any front. Am I wrong? At least in LD!

Divine crusader is a different beast that I am currently exploring.

But as for the OP, I think I ll need to organize it a bit more.

[BigErkyKid]

Hope you mean this one: http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Duergar_Waraxe_of_the_Weapon_Master ;) (not easy to aquire though)

I ll crunch some numbers for that axe. But it is indeed not as long hanging as the TF :P

[BigErkyKid]

Hope you mean this one:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Duergar_Waraxe_of_the_Weapon_Master

;) (not easy to aquire though)

Alright, so no glancing blows because the other also procs them. Since the base damage of the TF is higher, glancing blows favor that axe in the comparison. Hence, if anything, this is biased for the duergar axe. I find that even in this scenario, the duergar axe cannot compare to a TF tier 1 axe. I think this is good and bad. It is good because there are some very powerful weapons around, bad because it has basically killed a whole bunch of named options. A tier 1 TF is easy to acquire, even without raiding, whereas all the other weapons are a grind. So why even bother? In addition, you can keep adding to TF and the base items have low minlvl.


Tier 1 Thunderforged dwarxe


1d10, 5.5.
Crit profile: 20X3

IC slash, overwhelming crit

Non crit hit: (4*5.5)+10=32
Crit 1 x4: 128
Expected damage: (32*0.9)+( 128*0.1)=41.6

Adding +30 STR
Non crit hit: (4*5.5)+10=62
Crit 1: 248
Expected damage: (62*0.9)+( 248*0.1)=80.6

In LD, with OC, IC, DC, headmans

Prob. crit: .05
Non crit hit: (4*5.5)+10=32
Crit (19-20) X6 (IC slash, overwhelming crit, devastating crit,

headmans chop): 192
Expected damage: (32*0.9)+(192*0.1)=48

Adding +30 STR

Non crit hit: (4*5.5)+10=62
Crit (19-20) X6 (IC slash, overwhelming crit, devastating crit,

headmans chop): 372
Expected damage: (62*0.9)+(372*0.1)=93

Now with momentum
Adding the damage increase of momentum swing

Non crit: ((4+5)*5.5)+7)=56.5
Crit: 56.5*6 = 337.5
Expected damage: (56.5*0.75)+(337.5*0.25)=126.75


Adding +30 STR
Non crit: 86.5
Crit: 519
Expected damage: (86.5*0.75)+(519*0.25)=194.625



Duergar waraxe


1d10, 5.5.
Crit profile: 1-20 X3
Prob. crit: .1
Non crit hit: (3*5.5)+6=22.5
Crit (19-20): 22.5*3 = 67.5
Expected damage: (22.5*0.9)+(67.5*0.1)=33.75

With IC and overwhelming crit


Non crit hit: (3*5.5)+6=22.5
Crit (17-18): 22.5*3 = 67.5
Crit (19-20): 22.5*4=90
Expected damage: (22.5*0.8)+(67.5*0.1)+(90*0.1)=33.75

Adding +30 STR

Non crit hit: 52.5
Crit (17-18): 157.5
Crit (19-20): 210
Expected damage: (52.5*0.8)+(157.5*0.1)+(210*0.1)=78.75

IC slash, overwhelming crit, devast crit, headmans.
Non crit hit: (3*5.5)+6=22.5
Crit (17-18)x3=67.5
Crit (19-20)X6: 135
Expected damage: (22.5*0.8)+(67.5*0.1)+(135*0.1)=38.25

Adding +30 STR
Non crit: 52.5
Crit 1: 157.5
Crit 2: 315
Expected damage: (52.5*0.8)+(157.5*0.1)+(315*0.1)=89.25

Now with momentum

Adding the damage increase of momentum swing
Non crit: ((3+5)*5.5)+6=50
Crit 1 (14-18): 50*3 = 150
Crit 2 (19-20): 50*6=300
Expected damage: (50*0.65)+(150*0.25)+(300*0.1)=100


Adding +30 STR
Non crit: 80
Crit 1 (14-18): 240
Crit 2 (19-20): 480
Expected damage: (80*0.65)+(240*0.25)+(480*0.1)=160

[DirtySheepdip]

I'll add my personal opinion based on both math and actual gameplay. I have an epic competitionist that did all 12 lives as a S&B build. I also build a very involved model to try and figure out what the best set up would be and tested each that looked promising through gameplay.

My findings: What is best will depend heaviliy on your playstyle and the playstlye of any group you are running with - there is no "BEST" or "ULTIMATE" setup.

If you want to make your model more closely resemble actual results, a few things to consider:
- You can not ignore special weapon procs
- You can not ignore glancing blows and procs from glancing blows
- You can not assume every critical threat is a critical hit
- You can not assume you can bypass fort on every mob
- You must account for fighting multiple mobs at one time
- You can not know how the actual numbers are calculated in game (Best guess :))
- You should take into account shield bashes

How I modeled it - calculate the number of swings to kill a cluster of mobs
Main Variables: Base Weapon Stats, Special Weapon Procs, Combat modifiers from feats/Enhancements/destinies, Number of Mobs, Fortification and Vulnerabilities of mobs, and perhaps most importantly assumptions on how things work

As you can see, there are a lot of moving parts in the model so you can't look at one thing (crit profile for example) by itself. I believe the best approach to modeling actual gameplay DPS is minimize the number of swings it takes to kill a pack of mobs. This was the best I could get to having my math "match" game experience.

My playstyle in EH and lower level EE is to gather as many mobs as possible then take them down as quick as possible. The typical S&B build has lower base DPS but can easily do more overall DPS using this method as you can maximize the use of your short term boosts/abilities and minimize the need to be healed.

Given my playstyle, I found that getting average damage up and maxing glancing blows and glancing blow procs was the best for me. Before thunderforge weapons, my best setup was shield with bash in off hand and a Mountain Fist DAxe in main hand. I carried 4 Mountain Fists - my default had Fire, Acid, and Cold damage augments and the other three were slotted Fire/Fire/Fire, Acid/Acid/Acid, and Cold/Cold/Cold. As my memory is not great about what mobs are vulnerable/immune to what I would lead off with the 3 different slots then change to the damage type that gave purple numbers, or at least to one that did damage. This setup didn't give me giant numbers - but it gave a very good stream of reasonably high numbers that killed packs quickly. If you don't believe that glancing blows and procs make a difference, take a Fire Weapon into Trial By Fire or a Cold weapon into DA and fight large packs. If you don't have the TWF feats, test it in Fury of the Wild as you can get all three with procs for a short time with Unbridled Fury.

With the last update I now carry two Upgraded Thunder Forged DAxes - one focused on fire and one on negative energy so I can switch as needed and a PDK shield in the off hand. The PDK shield with it's 3000HP vorpal and bash at 55% or 70% do enough to be quite meaningful.

As a side note, I much prefer playing in Divine Crusader to LD - both solo and groups, especially if pugs. Sure, I don't get the big numbers but it is much more group friendly and I can solo faster in DC without the aggravation on keeping blitz going (portals.) Just something to consider. Again - based heavily on my playstyle and everyone plays different but for me - DC gives better DPS than LD because I can finish the quest faster which means I killed things quicker which means I did more DPS.

OP - Your numbers seem to be focused on DPS against a single target - play the way you'd like but from my perspective you are giving up most of what S&B brings to the table by only considering one mob at a time. If you really only want to go one-on-one you would be much better off looking at a TWF build as they will almost always come out ahead in single target DPS and you can easily get enough defense against a single target even in EE without needing a shield or stances.


great post.

[DirtySheepdip]

eh, Bigerk... just wondering, do you solo or group more often?

[BigErkyKid]

eh, Bigerk... just wondering, do you solo or group more often?

I do both, when I solo is mostly to test things.

My experience is that if the group is strong already DPS wise, going LD DPS isn't a great addition. DC brings more to the group. Sacred grounds, stacks into heals...

My problem with shielders now is that given how they stand along DPS/defense with respect to other builds, I don't think they are a great addition to a group. Sure, having one has benefits, but what will get a quest done more reliably, two Cetus or a Cetus and a shielder?

[Silken-Akira]

looking at the swashbuckler thread there seems to come a SWF line pretty soon. So I guess that means that a lot of thoughts on this thread needs to be rewritten when that comes along.
On the other hand perfect timing for those intrested in this thread to start up one with recommendations for a SWF feat line.

[Wongar]

I do both, when I solo is mostly to test things.

My experience is that if the group is strong already DPS wise, going LD DPS isn't a great addition. DC brings more to the group. Sacred grounds, stacks into heals...

My problem with shielders now is that given how they stand along DPS/defense with respect to other builds, I don't think they are a great addition to a group. Sure, having one has benefits, but what will get a quest done more reliably, two Cetus or a Cetus and a shielder?

My experience from a melee perspective: A well built/played LD paired with a well built/played DC is much better than two well built/played in LD. DC and LD complement each other very well and my S&B DC playstyle makes someone in LD very happy and much more effective. Again I collect a large group, Consecrate the ground to give the AOE damage, heals, and damage boost. While I hold argo and soften up the group the blitizer happily and quickly kills them off one at a time and gets to keep his blitiz going. If things get overwheliming - I cast a Celestial Bombardment and lay everybody down. What blitizer would not want to step from almost dead mob to almost dead mob while getting free heals and a 10% damage boost? Have a nuker in the party - they love clusters of mobs argoed on somebody else even more :)

My opinion - a S&B player and the party they are in needs to use some tactics and strategy to be effective. If your in a party where everyone just runs to a random mob and swings till somebody dies - than pure DPS is king. If your in a party that will play with and utilize the strengths of a more defensive oriented build - than the a S&B build can be a great asset to a party.

The biggest challenge for a tank build now is that beyond about Ginthold, you can't realy take the beating from a group of EE mobs long for the party to kill them so the tank role becomes much more challenging in higher content. If your targeting GH and lower EE or anything on EH/EN the tank can lead a gimped flavor build party through any content.

[BigErkyKid]

My experience from a melee perspective: A well built/played LD paired with a well built/played DC is much better than two well built/played in LD. DC and LD complement each other very well and my S&B DC playstyle makes someone in LD very happy and much more effective. Again I collect a large group, Consecrate the ground to give the AOE damage, heals, and damage boost. While I hold argo and soften up the group the blitizer happily and quickly kills them off one at a time and gets to keep his blitiz going. If things get overwheliming - I cast a Celestial Bombardment and lay everybody down. What blitizer would not want to step from almost dead mob to almost dead mob while getting free heals and a 10% damage boost? Have a nuker in the party - they love clusters of mobs argoed on somebody else even more :)

My opinion - a S&B player and the party they are in needs to use some tactics and strategy to be effective. If your in a party where everyone just runs to a random mob and swings till somebody dies - than pure DPS is king. If your in a party that will play with and utilize the strengths of a more defensive oriented build - than the a S&B build can be a great asset to a party.

The biggest challenge for a tank build now is that beyond about Ginthold, you can't realy take the beating from a group of EE mobs long for the party to kill them so the tank role becomes much more challenging in higher content. If your targeting GH and lower EE or anything on EH/EN the tank can lead a gimped flavor build party through any content.


Last time I did a combo Cetus and me on divine crusader it was in EH Wheelon (quite a coincidence!). Not EE, I am aware, but its not cake either (for me...). We both weren't 28 fully geared, so it was challenging for us. The problem was that alas he was a BF, hence my heals (the best part of DC, for the party, IMO) weren't very effective for him. I know this might seem like a side issue but gven that BF IS the ultimate race for melees, it is not a minor one.

In any case, I am not convinced that DC S/B is needed at all, specially one that is not a battle cleric, since although the heals are nice a real healer would do way better while still having other options for him. DC is for me the caddie of a well build and geared LD blitzer. Helpful, yes, but in all aspects suboptimal.

Somewhere is in these forums someone said LD is the only viable melee in EE. This might be an overstatement, but I think it is fair to say that it is the only relatively self sufficient possible build. By self sufficient I mean packs his heals and his DPS.

I am not necessarily in favor of self sufficiency, but in a game where some builds are already self sufficient, they do feel superior to those that are just caddies. For this reason, I think that S/B needs a boost both in defense (its signature) and in DPS / Tactics. Personally, I don't like the feeling of not really contributing a lot to a party. Yes, I am aware anyone can be helpful, but I refer you to my previous explanations.

Note that I am refering to real EE, such as SH. Or even some quests in EE GH. I don't think I can tank well the end fight in FoF. Last time I tried, the double strikes were eating me alive regardless of my PRR and the bosses had around 140K HP.

PS - Perhaps your build / gear is much better than mine, or you are much more skilled than me. I will gladly take tips from a more experienced shielder. What build / gear are you using? What is your DPS profile? Could you link us some videos of questing?

[Wongar]

I think that while we agree on several things - you and I have some fundamental differences in how we approach the game. not saying either is right or wrong - just different.

I fully agree with you that a DC S&B is not needed at all. I'd go so far as to say that no class / build is needed at all anymore. I view this as a good thing in that it lets people play as they want and does not force roles on anyone. I also don't think that BF IS the ultimate race for melees - sure they have a few advantages but there are plenty of viable alternatives... but that is for another discussion.

Now about our fundamental differences - you view a DC tank as a "caddie," I view the DC tank as a field commander - it's all about the perspective!

If you carry a shield for survival and follow everyone around and act as a nanny or heal bot than that's what you will be - regardless of build or destiny. This is a fine role to play and very helpful in some cases but it is not a tank role.

For me the tank sets the tone for the entire quest. The tank should be the first to engage in every battle. The tank groups the mobs and controls the size and location of every fight as well as controlling the speed with which the group moves from fight to fight. A tank manages the pace of the quest and allows the other supporting roles to shine -- allowing them to do what they do best and take on as much or little as they want. A great tank is able to quickly sense the abilities of a group and bend the flow of the quest to exploit the group strengths and cover its weaknesses. To me - no other role has more impact on the quest or the enjoyment of the group than a tank and no other destiny supports this better than DC.

Taking this perspective to the extreme - if you run a DC in a two man group with the Bllitizer, the Blitizer is just there to follow along and add DPS :)

To your PS - I am not an ubber player. My main is a S&B Dwarf Favored Soul/Fighter/Paladin that wares heavy armor. He is far from optimal but I play him because I enjoy him and he does will enough to be respectable in any current content at any level. I can solo most anything up through EE GH and can still be a strong party asset in the higher level EEs. I have not build to be a tank but rather to get as much DPS as I can with a weapon and a shield - not min/max but personal preferences. The Epic past lifes help defense a ton so I still make a respectable tank in any EH content but really start to struggle with a tanking playstyle past EE GH/High Road quests as I can't stand up to more than 1 or 2 mobs at a time in the higher EEs so like most everyone need to change tactics. Technically I guess I would be a battle cleric given the Favored Soul levels but I make a pretty poor healer. Almost all of my healing comes from Cocoon and Ameliorating Strike (and now DC), I rarely cast a healing spell. I play a melee, I have horrible ranged attacks and the only offensive spells I use come from destinies. Hopefully that answers some of your questions about me. Sorry, never tried making videos of questing. I play on Cannith and would be happy to give you a first person view sometime if you like :).

[BigErkyKid]

...

I don´t think we disagree at all :)



If you can hold the aggro well, you open the door for sneak attacks, it means fewer healing resources spent, you protect the weak from grabbing aggro and generally speaking you provide order to the battle. A shielder is like the orchestra director of the party and its standard bearer.

This is me.

So I would say we have very similar ideas. However, I don't think this can be done well in end game with a shielder. I also try to build max DPS, but it remains low for my taste. Defenses are also not great, particularly if we compare to characters with shadow veil.

The way things stand, I don't feel that the shielder can fulfill them correctly those roles. Do you disagree with me on that?

Perhaps we could share the builds somewhere else, mine is an evasion shielder 12 fighter,6paladin,2 monk.

PS - When I say not needed, I mean it in a worse than usual way. A DPS melee is not needed, you could have a shiradi sorc instead, or a very well build and geared sorc. But you need the function of DPS covered. What the DC crusader is provided is not needed in the sense that if no one did that job, I don't think it would be missed or you could not substitute it with someone actually better at it. I know I am a bit pessimistic! That s not to say that a good player, who knows the strengths and weaknesses of the shielder can do a remarkable job.

[Wongar]

OK - so no - we don't disagree at all :)

Sorry - I didn't remember seeing your quote - guess I was keying on the "caddie" comment. I get a little defensive when people think my S&B melee with a Favored Soul Icon should be a heal bot - nothing personal.

I have no disagreement with you about S&B tanking not being viable as an end game EE strategy. I have spent countless hours trying to put one together on paper and testing in game and can't come up with all the pieces required to do it. I've seen people post about needing 200AC and 200PRR to be effective but don't know how you would get there and be anything but a little harder to kill - could not function as a tank the way I like to play one.

[BigErkyKid]

OK - so no - we don't disagree at all :)

Sorry - I didn't remember seeing your quote - guess I was keying on the "caddie" comment. I get a little defensive when people think my S&B melee with a Favored Soul Icon should be a heal bot - nothing personal.

I have no disagreement with you about S&B tanking not being viable as an end game EE strategy. I have spent countless hours trying to put one together on paper and testing in game and can't come up with all the pieces required to do it. I've seen people post about needing 200AC and 200PRR to be effective but don't know how you would get there and be anything but a little harder to kill - could not function as a tank the way I like to play one.

If it helps a dev replied on my other thread on shielders saying he agrees they are messed up. Or at least that's what I read.

I hear also that a new shielder line is coming out.

Besides, something I am using now a lot is momentum. It gives me a very nice addition to the dps if timed right.