simple assassinate question

[Corev]

i seem to be unable to get a straight answer from anyone on my server, so I come to you forum community. When using assassinate, if 2 mobs are grouped very closely together, my assassinate hits/kills both. Bug or WAI?

[CThruTheEgo]

i seem to be unable to get a straight answer from anyone on my server, so I come to you forum community. When using assassinate, if 2 mobs are grouped very closely together, my assassinate hits/kills both. Bug or WAI?

I'm not sure if the question of whether or not this is WAI has ever been asked, so I can't say one way or the other, but it has certainly always worked this way.

[Corev]

interesting that no one has ever asked this before, description doesn't list multiple enemies, nothing about this ability really screams "assassicleave" but to that reply i say giggity, thanks.

[Maelodic]

It doesn't ALWAYS kill both. This is because two weapon fighting hits twice in a single animation for an offhand attack, theoretically with 100% doublestrike and 100% offhand chance you could kill three people- if you used assassinate with only one dagger, it would only kill one.
It's the same reason why you can get 1500 damage on Touch of Death instead of just 500.

[Riekan]

interesting that no one has ever asked this before, description doesn't list multiple enemies, nothing about this ability really screams "assassicleave" but to that reply i say giggity, thanks.

As far as I can tell, the only way to double assassinate is if you are two weapon fighting. With two daggers, I kill two almost all the time. You can even hit the first and turn into the second if you are fast enough to get the second kill. If you are lucky enough for a double strike to go off when you hit assassinate, you can get three.

[Corev]

yeah once in a blue moon I see three, but I just assumed I was hallucinating or something.

[skorpeon]

yeah once in a blue moon I see three, but I just assumed I was hallucinating or something.

Yes I normally make a sideways movement when I assassinate, so I get the first and second. Now as I am dual wielding knives maybe its the two different strikes? I have noticed that even if I miss the first I can still hit the second if I recall correctly.

I don't know if this has changed, but if I am holding a scroll in one hand I can not assassinate. I was wondering why as I do have a knife in one hand so why shouldn't I be able to? Anyway why shouldn't paper cuts can be deadly?

[kamimitsu]

It doesn't ALWAYS kill both. This is because two weapon fighting hits twice in a single animation for an offhand attack, theoretically with 100% doublestrike and 100% offhand chance you could kill three people- if you used assassinate with only one dagger, it would only kill one.
It's the same reason why you can get 1500 damage on Touch of Death instead of just 500.

Long ago, when assassinate first came out, we noticed the dual-assassinate behavior. Many people claimed to have seen a triple assassinate, and (as Grand Poo-bah of Dastardliness of the R.O.G.U.E.) I sent out a challenge to demonstrate a triple assassinate with combat log or similar to support it. I have repeated that challenge in threads thereafter. To date, and to my knowledge, no one has claimed the prize. We surmised that assassinate triggers for each hand's regular attack, and does not proc for doublestrike. I should note, that you could conceivably kill a third mob with a doublestrike, but it wouldn't show the assassinate animation or text in combat log.

On a side note, if you are attempting to assassinate a particularly high DC mob, you may not want to move to the 2nd target as it is possible to hit with the main hand (and the mob save), then land the assassinate with the off-hand. I'm assuming you would need blindness or deception to proc on the 1st attack for this to work.

Also also, the distance from which one can double assassinate is considerably farther than you might imagine, and it is worth playing around with a bit to get a feel for what is doable.

Also also also, I've actually assassinated a guy standing behind another guy, and not touched the first guy... that was freeeaaaaky. I can only guess it has to do with attack arcs, movement, and collision detection.

Some light reading on this topic from the old days, if you are so inclined:

The Art of the Assassination (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/172362-The-art-of-the-assassination?p=2049359&viewfull=1#post2049359)

Two Assassinates with TWF confirmed (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/178085-Two-assassinate-attempts-when-TWF-confirmed)
Double assassination: bug, feature, or my imagination? (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/223465-Double-assassination-bug-feature-or-my-imagination)

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

Just wanted to say, ive scroll healed myself with a heal scroll....had a mob suddenly next to me...

Hit sneak, assassinate...killed mob with a scroll in hand.

It can be done....kinda funny too.

[Corev]

Long ago, when assassinate first came out, we noticed the dual-assassinate behavior. Many people claimed to have seen a triple assassinate, and (as Grand Poo-bah of Dastardliness of the R.O.G.U.E.) I sent out a challenge to demonstrate a triple assassinate with combat log or similar to support it. I have repeated that challenge in threads thereafter. To date, and to my knowledge, no one has claimed the prize. We surmised that assassinate triggers for each hand's regular attack, and does not proc for doublestrike. I should note, that you could conceivably kill a third mob with a doublestrike, but it wouldn't show the assassinate animation or text in combat log.


you don't see the problem with this? If a doublestrike procs and causes assassinate to go off a third time, but it does not register with animations OR combat log, how is one to prove it? Hope that they are fraps'ing at just the right time? Also what is this prize you speak of?

[kamimitsu]

you don't see the problem with this? If a doublestrike procs and causes assassinate to go off a third time, but it does not register with animations OR combat log, how is one to prove it? Hope that they are fraps'ing at just the right time? Also what is this prize you speak of?

If it isn't in the combat log, then it didn't happen. Rather, your doublestrike attack just killed the 3rd mob by some proc-on-20 death effects (innate or otherwise) or pure DPS (crit + sneak attack), or similar; particularly if "you killed X" shows up for the 3rd kill without a "you hit X with assassinate" in the combat log. I'm happy to be proven wrong, though.

As for animations, the death animation for assassinated mobs differs from normal death. I've yet to see more than 2, and upon careful inspection I noticed 2 assassinates and 1 normal death. My co-testers found the same. Again, happy to be proven wrong. I suppose a Fraps capture would be proof.

So, if there is no appropriate death animation, and no entry in the combat log, it didn't happen. Something else did. I can't stress enough, I'd love to be shown up. I wanted to believe it existed.

As for a prize, it was back in 2009, and then again in 2010, when we were searching for it, and at the time I had just started the R.O.G.U.E. Proving Grounds, so the prize would likely have been a title in the Order... possibly some devil scales/shroud ingredients which were oh so juicy at the time, if the finder was on my server.

/I feel like I should be wearing an onion in my belt

[Talon_Moonshadow]

While I do not believe it is exactly WAI, I do not think they consider it a bug (that they are planning to fix anyway) either.


I should point out that it is a little weird at times, and can also be a problem in certain quests.

I have killed things standing behind me many times......

... including Spiders that were not the real threat. :(

[Corev]

I have killed things standing behind me many times......

... including Spiders that were not the real threat. :(

you fiend. Let me guess, you later had the audacity to look their queen in the eye and promise to protect her and her brood. :p

Yeah i learned real fast, never touch the assassinate button during the later phases of that quest.

[Maelodic]

Long ago, when assassinate first came out, we noticed the dual-assassinate behavior. Many people claimed to have seen a triple assassinate, and (as Grand Poo-bah of Dastardliness of the R.O.G.U.E.) I sent out a challenge to demonstrate a triple assassinate with combat log or similar to support it. I have repeated that challenge in threads thereafter. To date, and to my knowledge, no one has claimed the prize. We surmised that assassinate triggers for each hand's regular attack, and does not proc for doublestrike. I should note, that you could conceivably kill a third mob with a doublestrike, but it wouldn't show the assassinate animation or text in combat log.

On a side note, if you are attempting to assassinate a particularly high DC mob, you may not want to move to the 2nd target as it is possible to hit with the main hand (and the mob save), then land the assassinate with the off-hand. I'm assuming you would need blindness or deception to proc on the 1st attack for this to work.

Also also, the distance from which one can double assassinate is considerably farther than you might imagine, and it is worth playing around with a bit to get a feel for what is doable.

Also also also, I've actually assassinated a guy standing behind another guy, and not touched the first guy... that was freeeaaaaky. I can only guess it has to do with attack arcs, movement, and collision detection.

Some light reading on this topic from the old days, if you are so inclined:

The Art of the Assassination (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/172362-The-art-of-the-assassination?p=2049359&viewfull=1#post2049359)

Two Assassinates with TWF confirmed (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/178085-Two-assassinate-attempts-when-TWF-confirmed)
Double assassination: bug, feature, or my imagination? (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/223465-Double-assassination-bug-feature-or-my-imagination)

I appreciate your comments and will do some reading. I usually play a Shadar-Kai Rogue with Gloomstalker, so regardless of whether or not the mob detects you, assassinate will always proc.

[AidanRyuko]

did you guys ever try testing it out properly? Good chance this is working as intended.

I am not an assassin rogue, Kamimitsu explained quite well, but I do know how melee works in general. To repeat and add info: there are two things that might influence this, the most obvious being the two weapon fighting property of having a 20% chance to proc off-hand even if you didn't pick feats for it.

Doublestrike, the assassin line has the Killer enhancement which can get you stacked up to 20% chance on double strike.

A third option is glancing blows, this works only with two handed weapons or a bastard sword. I tried to test it with an iconic rogue but no one wanted to help me out so I didn't manage to line up multiple enemies at once for a good measurement, didn't manage to get ass. kills from glancing blows yet, but that doesn't mean it's not possible, I'll see if I can test it out later when I have guildies online.

I think it's possible to explain if it's working as intended by looking at the game mechanics, but in the end only a developer can say if it is or not. To me it seems WAI, if I imagine sneaking up on two monsters and I have a weapon in each hand, it only seems logical I could try to get them both, though the second target would be trickier.

[Deathdefy]

Assassinate always goes off twice regardless of the weapon(s) you're using or whether you have the TWF line. Personally, I use eMG and a shield most of the time for dedicated assassinating.

You can pull off very fun tricks with some form of fast movement (speedy sneak from Shadowdancer / sprint boost from a split) since there's a delay between the first and second proc.

Best pug wowers are:
1 - In Servants of the Overland, there is a drow priestess getting chatty with 2 rakshasas right before the end. You can assassinate both rakshasas as soon as they activate with one button press.
2 - In The Tide Turns, there are 2 pirates outside the closed door leading to the lever that opens the way to the pipe section in the sewers. You can assassinate both again with one button press.

I think it's WAI - in any event it's a million miles from OP.

[AidanRyuko]

tested it out on a two handed weapon.

test 1: distance you can assassinate something at, this was 4 meters, height does influence this.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa317/aidanryu/4meterass_zps435a4ce5.jpg

test 2: does assassinate work on glancing blows?
no, it does not. even with 10 spiders lined up assinate will only hit two enemies with that attack, if you fail assassinate it still counts as a sneak attack if it does hit. I highlighted in combat log image below, the attack below that is a seperate attack.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa317/aidanryu/doubleass_zpsdb9843d0.jpg