Devs, Melee's need a serious tactics overhaul

[Cetus]

As I was commenting on a different thread, I decided to start this discussion about the state of melee tacticians in this game. With the presence of zero-investment CC abilities such as nerve venom, otto's whistler, pin (see the trend here?) effectively dominating the endgame world by casters and archers, respectively, weapon wielding melee's are at a loss when it comes to CC for the most part.

Stunning fist is arguably the most useful CC abilities because its like stunning blow with a fraction of the cooldown, however given its extreme limitations (wisdom, monk etc) its not practically available to melee's as a whole.

I suggest that new tactics make their way into the melee world, including - helpless trips, much shorter cooldown and longer duration stunning blows, stunning blows that affect elementals, helpless mass trip effects for undead, stunning blow cleaves, helpless guard effects for tank types (DC based on character level + con modifier maybe?), other creative CC effects such as powerful uppercut attacks that sends an enemy flying back a considerable distance, bull rush attacks which allow you to charge an enemy at great speed rendering it helpless, etc...

All of these abilities should have DC's based off your investments, and should not insta-land with no save. This would improve combat dynamics, allow for even more interesting melee build diversity, add the long needed defenses to offensive and defensive melee's alike, and would make true tacticians more of a reality instead of relying on the shiradi casters/archers to cheaply CC entire groups of mobs with no investments.

[Tilomere]

I suggest that new tactics make their way into the melee world, including - helpless trips, much shorter cooldown and longer duration stunning blows, stunning blows that affect elementals, helpless mass trip effects for undead, stunning blow cleaves, helpless guard effects for tank types (DC based on character level + con modifier maybe?), other creative CC effects such as powerful uppercut attacks that sends an enemy flying back a considerable distance, bull rush attacks which allow you to charge an enemy at great speed rendering it helpless, etc.


It's called ear smash or Trantrum, Lay Waste twist, or TWF + cleaves + supreme cleave + Balanced Attacks twist. All you have to do is lose 15 all saves from divine grace, evasion, free feats, 10k stars, and earth stance from monk, the ability to heal yourself instantly with reconstruct from BF, and the ability to use displacement clickies so you end up taking 60% more physical damage. Oh, you have to give up your ESOS too. Or a wisdom based build with drifting lotus in GMOF.

Or did you mean you want AoE CC and more damage on a BF Cetus build in LD? Because the sympathy level for adding more to any BF Monk Pali combo ESOS/Sireth/Pinion wielder is pretty low right now, as well as for adding more to LD. In order to have a reasonable chance to work on any class, all strength based tactics become no-save on a multiclass melee with strength and tactics bonuses from up to three different classes and enhancements. "All of these abilities should have DC's based off your investments" is just another way of saying "no-save" on an already overpowered multi-class character.

I'm all for adding more melee tactical feats that CC to say barbs or bards based on class level in barb or bards, so the more class levels invested in traditionally weak classes, the better they are. I'm not in favor of adding AoE effectively no-save helpless CC which only works on a multiclass character making them 2-3x more powerful than pure classes than they already are. This is what stunning blow is now. Making it AoE would be disastrous for balance, but you already know that.

[Cetus]

It's called ear smash. All you have to do is lose 15 all saves from divine grace, evasion, free feats, 10k stars, and earth stance from monk, the ability to heal yourself instantly with reconstruct from BF, and the ability to use displacement clickies so you end up taking 60% more physical damage. Fair trade?

Yes, we understand that monk/pally split offers more perks than barb to just get ear smash. I'm missing the point of this post perhaps.

[Tilomere]

Yes, we understand that monk/pally split offers more perks than barb to just get ear smash. I'm missing the point of this post perhaps.

What you are proposing would generally be disastrous for game balance and partying. The difference in killing power between a new player or someone playing a fun themed or pure build and a player using tactics and a well engineered multi-classed melee builds is already around 8x. Adding in AoE helpless tactics would increase this to around 15x. This would happen for example, if an AoE stunning blow were added.

I played a super high dps build in LD in groups. All my groups ended up disbanding once everyone realized they didn't move fast enough, since I had increased r/w speed, and that the players barely could kill anything because I evaporated everything faster than they could reach it. I first started after the enhancement pass with a fun 1k dps themed build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build?p=5105069&viewfull=1#post5105069). I switched over to a 8k dps tactics using build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build?p=5152275&viewfull=1#post5152275) with a move speed boost to test high end dps mechanics and learn game mechanics. I learned a ton about mechanics, but the people I played with learned only to avoid grouping with a super dps super movespeed player that kills everything by looking at it before they can even reach it. With an AoE stunning blow, that 8k dps build would incorporate cleaves and supreme cleave, and go through the roof and kill entire groups of mobs in a few seconds.

You can already hit a level of melee dps in the game that is unhealthy for partying. Allowing more, especially AoE no-fail on a multi-classed character would not be a good thing. Who would ever need or want to party when a BF Cetus AoE Stunning Blow/Cleave build soloing in LD would always be the fastest and only satisfying way to do dungeons, and could show up to parties and kill everything solo with bonus movespeed preventing anyone else from doing anything. Imagine how much fun and learning everyone other than I had in say this dungeon:

http://i57.tinypic.com/aeti4g.jpg

And they are mostly TR's, let alone new players.

[Nightmanis]

Ok so that devolved quickly.

Back on point, I'm all for variety. To throw in a suggestion, I love Lay Waste the most out of any of the different attacks I can have.

If we could have it changed so I could spam it more often (let's say reduce one of it's perks, which admittedly is either the +5[w] or the +1 crit multi) then I would be all over it.

One thing that was in DnD that's not in DDO is the bullrush. I'd definitely use that in any dungeon to help knock down a couple mobs.

Oh and can we change whirlwind attack? For that much investment I would love to actually have a triple cleave attack (or better yet, just spin in place for 3 seconds hitting everything around you) that I can move while doing. If you gave it some kind of CC related ability (say a trip effect with dc based off your STR, Dex or Con score) then that's killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

On another note, can we have divine might get a multi selector for the 3 offensive stats? That would help reduce the massive gap between dex and str builds for dps comparisons.

[Cetus]

stuff.

So basically, your argument against having more tactics is that we'll obliterate all the weak enemies around us so quickly that it'll be unfun for your group members? That's amazing

My suggestions all include DC's. You'd have to beat enemy saves in order for them to land, all the devs have to do is stat the mobs correctly, and there you have it.

As for group members, I just...have no words - to be honest, I don't care much about the newer players, they have an immensely rich ocean of content to learn and use to advance themselves. My suggestions (as usual) concern ENDGAME. These can be implemented as epic feats, destiny abilities, whatever - but tacticians are DEAD in this game, and tactics are fun to use.

Besides, barbarians will eventually get buffed to be the high DPS melees that theyre supposed to be. This will provide a good opportunity to make fighters more tactics heavy, and thereby involving the capstone in the process to make pure worthwhile again - without making a single nerf to the monk splash. Everybody wins.

[Tilomere]

So basically, your argument against having more tactics is that we'll obliterate all the weak enemies around us so quickly that it'll be unfun for your group members? That's amazing

My suggestions all include DC's. You'd have to beat enemy saves in order for them to land, all the devs have to do is stat the mobs correctly, and there you have it.



No, my argument is that one can already min-max to obliterate weak or strong enemies so fast that it is unfun for group members. An AoE stunning blow that is only usable by min-maxers after "investment" will make this worse.

Stunning blow in particular is a bad feat to model off of. You set it to work sometimes on an average pure or fun character, and a power-gamer makes it no-fail, and then makes use of no mercy/sense weakness/combat brute for triple damage. You set it to work sometimes for power-gamers, and average and fun players get another bad feat that is a trap to take. "Investment" being massive strength only available to certain min-max builds isn't a cost, since strength already is the primary dps stat. It is an exclusion of normal builds. A real cost would be a 50% damage penalty for a minute after using such a feat, or -10 all stats and 50% movement speed that comes with silver flame pots, or the even worse cost of needing 18 levels of barb or bard. No one feels bad about having 70+ strength so it isn't an investment cost. Neither is using a Mornh fort stunning DC. I use a mornh on my druid and have massive strength and let me tell you, I don't feel bad about either "investment" to make stunning blow work one bit.

What I see you asking for is a feat that makes elite builds even more elite. I disagree because my experience says that current elite builds are already too elite. Again, no problem here with a barb or bard melee tactics with AoE CC. They've already paid the price by playing under-powered classes. Is that what you are asking for, or are you looking to add an AoE stunning blow to the BF Cetus build?

I also care a great deal about player experiences. I would be ok with solo-only feats.

[redoubt]

So basically, your argument against having more tactics is that we'll obliterate all the weak enemies around us so quickly that it'll be unfun for your group members? That's amazing

My suggestions all include DC's. You'd have to beat enemy saves in order for them to land, all the devs have to do is stat the mobs correctly, and there you have it.

As for group members, I just...have no words - to be honest, I don't care much about the newer players, they have an immensely rich ocean of content to learn and use to advance themselves. My suggestions (as usual) concern ENDGAME. These can be implemented as epic feats, destiny abilities, whatever - but tacticians are DEAD in this game, and tactics are fun to use.

Besides, barbarians will eventually get buffed to be the high DPS melees that theyre supposed to be. This will provide a good opportunity to make fighters more tactics heavy, and thereby involving the capstone in the process to make pure worthwhile again - without making a single nerf to the monk splash. Everybody wins.

How high do we make the mob saves then? Melee are already 10ish points ahead of casters and assassins for DC now. Are you recommending that Turbine increase the saves? (Based on str based tacticians already have 80+, while the highest DC rogue found yet on the forum is 72. Casters are 70ish as well if fully decked out.)

[redoubt]

...

If you don't increase the save, then you are adding no-fail CC to melee. If you do increase the saves you are, once again, pushing DC casting (and assassins) into oblivion...

Can we cut the bonuses to STR based DCs (and wisdom based stunning some) so that we bring the melee tactical stun down to the same level as the caster mez?

[Cetus]

No, my argument is that one can already min-max to obliterate weak or strong enemies so fast that it is unfun for group members. An AoE stunning blow that is only usable by min-maxers after "investment" will make this worse.

that's exactly what I just said, so instead of no - your first word here should be yes. that's literally exactly what my summary was. You're worried about the game becoming unfun for newer players, while the veteran obliterates the quest. Funny, as good as I believe myself to be on my melee, not once did I ever notice a reduction in any party members fun because of my actions. This is a non-argument sir, play with better people who can actually compete with you. They can do the same exact thing with a multitude of different builds.

Secondly, I don't have the same experience with today's endgame content as you do. Maybe you're a god player, and I aspire to be as good as you - but my EE thunder peak runs still make me sweat even with full blitzed charged on my almighty bladeforged. You are exaggerating your points, I play the game the same - I know exactly how efficient I am, and its not god level like you make it sound. So, stop it.


Stunning blow in particular is a bad feat to model off of. a power-gamer makes it no-fail,

and then makes use of no mercy/sense weakness/combat brute for triple damage.


"Investment" being massive strength only available to certain min-max builds isn't a cost, since strength already is the primary dps stat.

What?

- Picking up sense weakness is a twist investment

- no mercy is a serious action point investment (one that I couldn't even afford on my seemingly overpowered build that you obviously have a problem with)

- Combat Brute is given only in LD, many melee/ranged types play in shiradi/fury/grandmaster/ and more recently divine crusader - combat brute is a destiny choice as well, its not just *given* to you.

- Sure strength is a primary DPS stat, but it is nowhere near an indicator of damage. Multipliers, on proc effects, sneak attack, threat range, damage modifying abilities such as adrenaline, fists of iron, blitz, advancing blows, damage boost, haste boost, power of the forge, etc. are WAYYYYYYY more impactful on your damage than your strength mod. For TWF'ers this is even more true, considering also off hand proc chance. Oh and there's this little thing called W modifiers and doublestrike. I'd argue that the strength's stats primary purpose is really to give you tactics, and a close second is to-hit.

Having a high strength is an absolute investment in order to maintain good tactic DC's, not to mention wearing gear: stunning +10 ring or weapon, combat mastery item, spending action points in your trees and destiny's, possibly taking the tactician feat, and the stunning blow feat itself.

there's no way you can argue with the overwhelming investment I just outlined above in order to have epic-caliber efficiency with the ONE helpless causing tactic any melee can get (not including adrenaline), and it happens to have a 15 second cooldown. Its disgusting.



A real cost would be a 50% damage penalty for a minute after using such a feat, or -10 all stats and 50% movement speed that comes with silver flame pots, or the even worse cost of needing 18 levels of barb or bard..

Now we can get to a productive discussion, I'm completely for having penalties in order to balance powerful tactical abilities. I agree here.


What I see you asking for is a feat that makes elite builds even more elite. I disagree because my experience says that current elite builds are already too elite. Again, no problem here with a barb or bard melee tactics with AoE CC. They've already paid the price by playing under-powered classes. Is that what you are asking for, or are you looking to add an AoE stunning blow to the BF Cetus build?

You are completely wrong here, if I'm allowed to - I'll definitely upgrade my bladeforged build with a ZOMG mass stunning blow effect, but that's not what I'm asking for. If you can get past your irrational hatred for power, you can see that what I'm trying to communicate is that a tactics overhaul will open up myriad opportunities for pure build capstones to incorporate very powerful tactics that can compete with the splash perks.

If 16 fighter gets mass stunning blow, and level 20 fighter gets bullrush. Well guess what? I can maybe do a 16/2/2 build now, and weigh shadow fade and fists of iron against mass stunning blow. Or say to hell with saves, I'll go 16/4 and still lose lose shadow fade but get fists of iron back. 16 fighter/3 monk /1 ranger might be cool - new builds, see? Or I can weigh all my splashing perks and get Bullrush, other builds that have guard tactics can invest more into stalwart - you'll immediately see less centered kenseis and monkchers, especially if these tactics affect undead, which populate endgame right now.

[TheLegendOfAra]

I'm all for more variety in Melee tactics.
Stunning Blow/Stunning Fist get boring when they're really all you have to rely on.
Especially when they both force you to focus exclusively on one stat.

I'd like to see more tactics feats added to the game, and I would love to see them be DC based.
However, I would prefer to have the, based off of Dex/Con/Str; Just so we could get variety in builds as well.
This would also open up some interesting combinations of builds. Imagine if you could make a Con based Dwarf with "Throw Your Weight Around" (or whatever it's called) and have good DPS and good tactics. It might not be the most effective build, but it would certainly be interesting to play.

People who are against this; You don't have ground to stand on. You can't argue that the gap between newer players and vets will just get bigger because that gulf is already so vast you couldn't fly across it. And it doesn't matter. Vets build and play in EE. New players should not be in EE runs, if they're even at endgame at all.

And if you don't want to make it save based, how else would you implement something like this?
Honestly, it has to be DC based or it's useless.

[PsychoBlonde]

I suggest that new tactics make their way into the melee world, including - helpless trips, much shorter cooldown and longer duration stunning blows, stunning blows that affect elementals, helpless mass trip effects for undead, stunning blow cleaves, helpless guard effects for tank types (DC based on character level + con modifier maybe?), other creative CC effects such as powerful uppercut attacks that sends an enemy flying back a considerable distance, bull rush attacks which allow you to charge an enemy at great speed rendering it helpless, etc...


Translation: WHERE MAI FREE +80% DPS I HAZ ABILITIES THAT INCREASES DMG ON HELPLESS MOBS Y IT NOT FREE AUTOMATIC TO MK HELPLESS TURBINE?!?!?!!

This after they added a soundburst SLA and a stun ability to the new divine stuff, too. (A stun that was briefly working even on red-names, hee.)

There will also *never* be knockback abilities in the game. Why? They have enough problems with mobs you HAVE to kill to complete quests hopping through walls. Imagine how hellacious this would be if players could throw knockbacks over their dicey connections. How many times are you willing to re-do quests because somebody knocked a mob through a wall?

I'm all for improved tactical options but this list is absurd.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Translation: WHERE MAI FREE +80% DPS I HAZ ABILITIES THAT INCREASES DMG ON HELPLESS MOBS Y IT NOT FREE AUTOMATIC TO MK HELPLESS TURBINE?!?!?!!

This after they added a soundburst SLA and a stun ability to the new divine stuff, too. (A stun that was briefly working even on red-names, hee.)

It has nothing to do with that.
It has to do with the fact that right now the only reliable way for non (unarmed) Monks to have CC in the game is Stunning Blow.
which has a 12second(?) cooldown and needs and insane investment of gear, past lives, str, and class splits to work. And it only works on one mob at a time; which when your main destiny kind of dictates you fight large groups of mobs is not very powerful.

Is it not absurd that to get a workable stunning Blow DC I have to have either 18Barb levels, or 12 Fighter levels+Divine Might?

I recently tried theory crafting a Ranger melee build that could get a workable stunning Blow DC for EE endgame content and it was simply impossible. (This included all relevant gear, Maxed out str/Cha, DM, 3x Fighter past lives, and completionist.)

EDIT**: In that thread my Ranger build could reach a sustained stunning Blow DC of 67.
Cetus has a sustained DC of I believe 79?

It's about adding versatility and options to the game.
It's about having a choice when making a melee tactics build as opposed to saying,
"Well, I want to stun something... Am I a barb or a Fighter this life?"...

And what does Sun Burst having a stun effect have to do with a melee tactics build? I'm confused.

[Wipey]

Well, at least existing options could be made more viable.
Building for working Stun Blow is not cheap, 10 seconds cooldown wouldn't hurt.
And probably wasted effort without Divine Might, Rage or specific races.

Sap, Feint, Sunder, what is that, noone uses those anymore.
Sap could be 5 seconds Paralyze, not breaking on damage instead.

How good is Improved Trip ? Been a while, do mobs recover immediately, or how long they stay down ?

More fightery stuff would be cool to have at higher levels, but what is gonna beat Shiradi "supporting" Blitzing melee.
Sp free, no fail helpless.

Another thing is, melee combat might not be "fun enough" for you, but 5 things to do is probably plenty to manage for many people.

[Tilomere]

Now we can get to a productive discussion, I'm completely for having penalties in order to balance powerful tactical abilities. I agree here.

You are completely wrong here, if I'm allowed to - I'll definitely upgrade my bladeforged build with a ZOMG mass stunning blow effect, but that's not what I'm asking for. If you can get past your irrational hatred for power, you can see that what I'm trying to communicate is that a tactics overhaul will open up myriad opportunities for pure build capstones to incorporate very powerful tactics that can compete with the splash perks.

If 16 fighter gets mass stunning blow, and level 20 fighter gets bullrush. Well guess what? I can maybe do a 16/2/2 build now, and weigh shadow fade and fists of iron against mass stunning blow. Or say to hell with saves, I'll go 16/4 and still lose lose shadow fade but get fists of iron back. 16 fighter/3 monk /1 ranger might be cool - new builds, see? Or I can weigh all my splashing perks and get Bullrush, other builds that have guard tactics can invest more into stalwart - you'll immediately see less centered kenseis and monkchers, especially if these tactics affect undead, which populate endgame right now.


I don't hate power, it is a tool and I made several powerful builds myself which were invaluable for understand game mechanics. I dislike the effects of too much power centered on a single person in group mechanics.

I don't have enough experience with fighter's to comment on their power levels (other than that they are always below me in kills now), so yes, I could see adding to the 18 or 20 core abilities some newer tactical abilities. I would still prefer to see it on a barb or melee bard though, because my knowledge of mechanics says that barbs need it more. I can't see adding it on anything that can also do a 2 monk 2 pali splash though, which already has resistance to all special attacks, otherwise you end up with a "Resist-all" character with no weakness depth. A tactics ability with a fort DC equal to the total enhancement points put into that classes trees and no other modifier's I could see.

Or maybe if the ability had a really long cool down or charges, like dragon's breath. A successful stun is basically a kill, since mobs don't generally ever get the chance to unstun. So we are talking about an AoE kill mechanic. EIN would be a far better model than stunning blow. EiN is based on a non-primary dps stat, with a timer limited mechanic. Ya I could go for one of these types of abilities as core level 18 or 20 point off-stat ability like (con) fighter, (con) barb or warchanter (charisma) ability. Warchanter's already have soundburst spell and ED ability though.

You won't see less monkchers. They are a decently strong with the no strong weakness, which has a broad appeal. Their weakness of clearing dungeons slowly is overshadowed by being able to farm higher difficulty fire on dragon peak raids for the best dps gear in the game, or just invising through a limited amount of dungeons.

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I actually greatly appreciate your Cetus build. I first started playing DDO a year ago ish and after the enhancement pass, there was this giant druid thread about how to increase dps and twf, since druid's couldn't figure out how to melee storm horns mobs down. I looked outside the druid forums,since they generally talked about die steps which I deemed were insignificant and instead I reversed engineered what worked out of your Cetus weapon build to druids (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424332-TWF-feats-now-work-with-Wolf-and-Bear-forms-is-this-wai?p=5134268&viewfull=1#post5134268). I never did thank you but yea thanks! Your Cetus build was what I needed to bring my druid's dps out of the gutters.

So technically, it's your fault I know enough to say an AoE stunning blow feat would be disastrous for game balance!
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I still see a ton of strength is an exclusion mechanic and not an investment cost. Since it isn't available to pure classes, it excludes all but elite multiclass builds which are already more powerful than pure builds. Since it adds to dps, stacking it doesn't really cost your character dps. Stacking wisdom for EiN on a monk instead of strength hurts your dps and is an investment. Stacking charisma on a warchanter for soundburst is an investment. Strength on a melee? That's not an investment, that's common sense.

[bsquishwizzy]

I like the concept of Sap, but it is near useless for melee except maybe rogues. Mainly because you really don't have anything on a melee side to follow it up with.

One of the people I'm running with is on a Barb this life. Any combat tactic that they could use takes a backseat to Cleaves. The damage output is so high there is very little reason to invest in a lot of tactics. Plus, running with a group, other forms of CC are available that don't require an investment in feats / enhancements.

So really, you're only looking at Tactics with a focus on soloing content, not in a group environment.

Plus red-named bosses - where using tactics would really pay off - are immune to most, if not all of their effects. I find that when I start to vest my melee in tactics, I end up picking an alternate to my cleaves, but end up replying on cleaves for the VAST majority of fights. Cleaves are comparatively low-cost, and just about 100% effective in just about 100% if the content. Can't say the same for Sunder, Trip, Sap, or Stunning Blow.

I think a tactics re-vamp would be nice, but given the way the environment works - PUGs, static parties, and the like - I just don't see a re-vamp having much impact.

I think of this in the same vein (sp:?) as rogue skills. In solo runs Sneak, Hide, and Bluff are AWESOME. In group environments, they are next to useless. No one wants to wait for the rogue to sneak up behind a for a backstab. It is sorta the same for tactics.

[Munkenmo]

All DC's need a serious look into and rebalancing done.

It won't happen though, the producer has already stated it's in the too hard basket.

[J-mann]

So technically, it's your fault I know enough to say an AoE stunning blow feat would be disastrous for game balance!
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No more so than aoe holds, webs(in heroics), stuns, earthquakes, dances or nerve venoms.... now what classes get those currently (and are capable of getting only fail on 20 too)? Quick hint.... not melee oriented ones (ever watch a mass hold then eburst/dragon breath... yeah thats sick). Now granted there are some fixes that would need to happen to make sure some builds didnt TOTALLY go into orbit, as well as some buffs that need to happen. Frist thing that should happen is divine might should be changed to an UNTYPED damage bonus instead of a strength bonus. After that centering should block all rage effects, with the possible exception of fire stance. Pallie divine grace should probably be capped at paladin level to make it less all powerful ***bring mob dcs down form the 70+ range while doing so please....**** To bring melee dcs back up, either the bonuses on items should be upped (a pass on existing items as well) or, preferably, they should count some degree of your total class level in the calculation. Add in a couple that are dex or con based as well to bring up some of the off stat builds.

One of the major areas melee is currently lacking is damage mitigation and crowd control, I see no reason more, lower cd, and possibly aoe tactics could not or even should not be added.

[J-mann]

I like the concept of Sap, but it is near useless for melee except maybe rogues. Mainly because you really don't have anything on a melee side to follow it up with.

One of the people I'm running with is on a Barb this life. Any combat tactic that they could use takes a backseat to Cleaves. The damage output is so high there is very little reason to invest in a lot of tactics. Plus, running with a group, other forms of CC are available that don't require an investment in feats / enhancements.

So really, you're only looking at Tactics with a focus on soloing content, not in a group environment.

Plus red-named bosses - where using tactics would really pay off - are immune to most, if not all of their effects. I find that when I start to vest my melee in tactics, I end up picking an alternate to my cleaves, but end up replying on cleaves for the VAST majority of fights. Cleaves are comparatively low-cost, and just about 100% effective in just about 100% if the content. Can't say the same for Sunder, Trip, Sap, or Stunning Blow.

I think a tactics re-vamp would be nice, but given the way the environment works - PUGs, static parties, and the like - I just don't see a re-vamp having much impact.

I think of this in the same vein (sp:?) as rogue skills. In solo runs Sneak, Hide, and Bluff are AWESOME. In group environments, they are next to useless. No one wants to wait for the rogue to sneak up behind a for a backstab. It is sorta the same for tactics.

One area here that I really agree with is that tactics need to be more useful against red names and bosses... currently borderline useless

[TheLegendOfAra]

Or maybe if the ability had a really long cool down or charges, like dragon's breath. A successful stun is basically a kill, since mobs don't generally ever get the chance to unstun. So we are talking about an AoE kill mechanic. EIN would be a far better model than stunning blow. EiN is based on a non-primary dps stat, with a timer limited mechanic. Ya I could go for one of these types of abilities as core level 18 or 20 point off-stat ability like (con) fighter, (con) barb or warchanter (charisma) ability.

I still see a ton of strength is an exclusion mechanic and not an investment cost. Since it isn't available to pure classes, it excludes all but elite multiclass builds which are already more powerful than pure builds. Since it adds to dps, stacking it doesn't really cost your character dps. Stacking wisdom for EiN on a monk instead of strength hurts your dps and is an investment. Stacking charisma on a warchanter for soundburst is an investment. Strength on a melee? That's not an investment, that's common sense.


EiN does work off a monks primary DPS stat.
What do Monks gain DPS from most of all? Tactics. Stunning Fist, QP, EiN, etc.
Have you seen any monks lately who didn't max their Wisdom? Who didn't put everything into Wisdom?
I sure haven't.(Talking unarmed builds here)

18Barb/1Druid/1Fighter... Can reach 100 Str. Hardly an elite multiclass build.

Stacking Wis instead of Str on a monk does not hurt your DPS ery much. It never has.
My monk until her most recent life was a Dex/Wis build. Before I Tr'd her into a monkcher I LR'd her and did a max Wis/Str build. Guess what, it had the same DPS and worse saves.. +[W] means so much more to a Monk than str.

[BigErkyKid]

I strongly support revisiting the tactics department.

Sure, you still need to smash some different buttons as a melee; yes, you need to be careful about aggro. However, I find that the variety of options actually decreases in end game, which makes no sense to me. Epics should bring more options, not restrict the ones available to us.

In an ideal world, heroic tactics (trip, sunders, stunning) would be possible in end game and some interesting further abilities (lay waste style knockdowns, for instance) would be added to the pool for more variety.

I think the example of monks is excellent. Their ED expanded my options as a monk and I did feel awesome or "epic" using the CC options it provided.

Even though I am far less competent in melee than in other playstyles, my opinion is that tactics go to die in epics because:

1. DCs do not scale well since they do not include character levels: that is, for traditional tactics. Investing in epic tactics boosts does not cut it for real end game. If Cetus can't do it, I stop trying myself. Mention to monks, that's the way to go, character level going into the DC computation.

2. Cooldowns are too long. For abilities affecting a single mob, 6 seconds should be the standard.

However, some people point out that this might just be an extra to current builds without further investment., I would suggest that:

1. DCs can be increased in different ways: Perhaps there could also be options to pick DEX to DCs in general. I guess you see where I am going.

2. Reduce cooldowns...

3. Remove some of the immunities for trash red names.

GoF is the inspiration to follow, IMO. I am building a melee now and I am planning for a lot of buttons in my hotbar, but I find that for the most part only a few would ever be effective...It cannot be all about building a minmaxed character and then holding attack and using a few select abilities.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

reduce trip, sunder/imp sunder, and stunning blow cd to 6 seconds, like it should have been anyway. make duration of each effect 6 seconds (are they already? i dont remember). add helpless to trip, or increase its base dc by a few points. problem solved. bull rush would be nice too, because the classes that actually need wings are the melee...because...they are melees............

that said unless these types of changes benefit a p2p class they wont happen. why do you think the free tactics feats are 15 sec cd while the monk feat is 6 secs?

[Munkenmo]

EiN does work off a monks primary DPS stat.
What do Monks gain DPS from most of all? Tactics. Stunning Fist, QP, EiN, etc.
Have you seen any monks lately who didn't max their Wisdom? Who didn't put everything into Wisdom?
I sure haven't.(Talking unarmed builds here)

18Barb/1Druid/1Fighter... Can reach 100 Str. Hardly an elite multiclass build.

Stacking Wis instead of Str on a monk does not hurt your DPS ery much. It never has.
My monk until her most recent life was a Dex/Wis build. Before I Tr'd her into a monkcher I LR'd her and did a max Wis/Str build. Guess what, it had the same DPS and worse saves.. +[W] means so much more to a Monk than str.

Your entire argument is flawed, +2 str for every build is 1base damage. +[w] ranges from 1damage (shuriken) up to 10 damage (E. AGA), ie, every build gets more dps from +[w] than they do from 2str.

Since the nerf to Quivering Palm I've gone back to playing in LD and have pushed for a str focus, investing in just enough wisdom to qualify for epic feats.

It's a rather significant dps difference compared to the last 6months where I was wisdom specced running in Gmof. Stunning fist, Quivering palm etc. are great abilities, but neither will help your dps one iota vs a boss.
After respeccing my stunning fist is still close to 100% reliable, and my quivering palm is just as useless as it's been since the nerf.

Sure a monk can still justify being max wisdom specced to get full use of EIN, but a monk running in GMOF is not a dps monk.

Dex wis monks have a better reflex save. Fort saves and will saves though will likely be the same. The dps however is not, every 2 points you put in dex is 1base damage less. Again, the same as it is for every other build.

1 damage doesn't sound like much, but it adds up fast in this game with ever increasing crit multipliers, and %damage boosts.
When I'm running with a full stack of blitz, and factoring in crits:
2str = 70 damage over 20 swings which takes 13 seconds (5.3 dps)
If i'm hasteboosting it takes 10 seconds make 20 attacks, (7 dps)

The difference against stunned mobs is 8 and 10.5 dps, Str makes a noticeable difference on monks, especially when running in a dps destiny.

[BigErkyKid]

Im surprised this isn't getting more attention.

[Takllin]

blah blah blah

You do know that your so called uber powerful druid build is using an exploit? There is another exploit with wolf form but without any video of your gameplay I can't say if your using it or not. You are for a fact using one though.

And look at the party composition in that SS...you have a Bard, Ranger and a Cleric...Not exactly high DPS builds...

[Chai]

Are we really to the point where we are complaining about putting 30+ points into ninja spy and 30+ more into kensai, and calling that all investment for stunning blow?

Just change stunning blow to 8s cooldown.

Done.

[Teh_Troll]

Besides, barbarians will eventually get buffed to be the high DPS melees that theyre supposed to be. This will provide a good opportunity to make fighters more tactics heavy, and thereby involving the capstone in the process to make pure worthwhile again - without making a single nerf to the monk splash. Everybody wins.

Citation needed.

[Tilomere]

You do know that your so called uber powerful druid build is using an exploit? There is another exploit with wolf form but without any video of your gameplay I can't say if your using it or not. You are for a fact using one though.

And look at the party composition in that SS...you have a Bard, Ranger and a Cleric...Not exactly high DPS builds...

Lol I know of a few exploits, but the only one I was using is pen and paper math. It lets you model dps before you ever make a character to see if your model is correct. The more times you do this the more accurate you get, until you understand dps mechanics fairly well. And yes, there are builds that aren't high dps builds ... and they need to enjoy grouping with others. You want to destroy that grouping fun by making triple class strength builds able to AoE Stun on top of all the advantages they already have for being triple classed? Ok. Fine. Release an epic AoE stunning blow feat and see what happens.

[Teh_Troll]

Just change stunning blow to 8s cooldown.

Done.

The cooldown should be the same as stunning fist, really no excuse for it being 15 seconds.

The formula could be looked at to, I think it's kinds stupid you cannot get it to land at higher levels without Divine Might.

[Seikojin]

Ok so that devolved quickly.

Back on point, I'm all for variety. To throw in a suggestion, I love Lay Waste the most out of any of the different attacks I can have.

If we could have it changed so I could spam it more often (let's say reduce one of it's perks, which admittedly is either the +5[w] or the +1 crit multi) then I would be all over it.

One thing that was in DnD that's not in DDO is the bullrush. I'd definitely use that in any dungeon to help knock down a couple mobs.

Oh and can we change whirlwind attack? For that much investment I would love to actually have a triple cleave attack (or better yet, just spin in place for 3 seconds hitting everything around you) that I can move while doing. If you gave it some kind of CC related ability (say a trip effect with dc based off your STR, Dex or Con score) then that's killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

On another note, can we have divine might get a multi selector for the 3 offensive stats? That would help reduce the massive gap between dex and str builds for dps comparisons.

I do think we need bulrush and overrun on the players side as well. They have dash attacks for rogues, so they can add the mechanic for everyone who takes the feat. And overrun is an extension of bull rush, but I think it would be a harder to implement tactic considering the power level of the mobs and combined player actions (although it would be cool to have a few melees in voice calling time (like levers in von5) for a overrun). However I think they should be there.

Whirlwind should do a 360 degree cleave and proc a trip check. Maybe have a higher dc or something. Most built in tactics have low dc's overall. Mainly because of the high mob stats we use them on. So the boosts to those should be higher, maybe something in the cores for particular destinies?

[Chai]

Lol I know of a few exploits, but the only one I was using is pen and paper math. It lets you model dps before you ever make a character to see if your model is correct. The more times you do this the more accurate you get, until you understand dps mechanics fairly well. And yes, there are builds that aren't high dps builds ... and they need to enjoy grouping with others. You want to destroy that grouping fun by making triple class strength builds able to AoE Stun on top of all the advantages they already have for being triple classed? Ok. Fine. Release an epic AoE stunning blow feat and see what happens.

Basically it already exists, with the difference being semantics only. Arbitrary damage multiplier buffs already showed us what the outcome is on that. FOTM builds built around it, and soloing due to easier maintenance of the ability staying active.

[Chai]

The cooldown should be the same as stunning fist, really no excuse for it being 15 seconds.

The formula could be looked at to, I think it's kinds stupid you cannot get it to land at higher levels without Divine Might.

Its yet another mechanic mimicing how AC used to be, where the range of uselessness is expanding endgame wise. Because its only 20 values its being balanced for, All numbers below the number where the mob fails > 5% are useless to build for. Might as well have other gear in those slots that have SB boosts if the character cant get to the threshold of possible usefulness.

[BigErkyKid]

Well luckily the mechanics of the game are complicated enough that it is not obvious what is the first sight what dominates. of course then some people just copy the powerful combos...Even very old veterans of the game, which saddens me because points out and the huge power disparity between those builds and the rest. I cannot believe that all of a sudden so many people inherently enjoy ranged builds.


The real problem is when the game is build around those combinations and it becomes so hard to beat for the rest...but hard in a bad way.

[Nodoze]

I like the idea of increasing tactics options for more pure class builds (14+,16,18+ or even 20 capstones). I don't think they should be low hanging fruit that any min-max-multiclass-build can grab.

I especially like the idea of giving more classic S&B tank builds unique AoE tactics as they need even more love...

[elcagador]

All DC's need a serious look into and rebalancing done.




The formula could be looked at to, I think it's kinds stupid you cannot get it to land at higher levels without Divine Might.

Using the d20 system is just not viable anymore, even when lvl 20 was the cap it was already a trouble, now is just ******. With so many buffs, destinies, enhancements, racial, class splash, feats, gear, etc, the breach between the max possible dc and a moderate dc with some investment is just more than 20-25 points, d20 rolls just don't cover enough that breach, leaving 90%+ of the player base in the useless dc department, negatively affecting the game experience. While the freaking uber players with past lifes and completionist can just barely make useful the dc abilities in end level content, the other players, including many veterans, just have to use no fail dc abilities like shiradi casting or just avoid the epic elite dc system.

Devs have to change the formula. I don't know if they have to make some curve like the ac system, but more accurate, or increasing the d20 dice to a higher dice roll, like d50 for example (they can keep d20 system for herioc lvls and use d50 for epics for example), so that way uber players with max possible DC get 70-95% efectiveness on dc abilities depending on the enemies, the moderate DC geared players get a 50-80% efectiveness, and the players with some few investment on DC get at least a 40-70% efectiveness on EE content.

Also EE enemies DC should be rebalanced. Is just bad that between EE lvl 22 quests (like sentinels or red fens) and EE lvl 29 quests (like stormhorns), the DC diference for EE enemies can be more than 20 points on a d20 system. (that diference should not be more than a 20-30% on efectiveness).
Also EN and EH should be closer to EE in the DC, but that can be fixed when the d20 system is changed or increased to d50. (between EH and EE the DC diference should be around 20-30% efectiveness and not 100% like currently happens, where 10 points on dc diference is 100% efectiveness diference in most of the cases)

[Tilomere]

With the presence of zero-investment CC abilities such as nerve venom, otto's whistler, pin (see the trend here?) effectively dominating the endgame world by casters and archers, respectively, weapon wielding melee's are at a loss when it comes to CC for the most part.



Skip the first few parts of this to the bolded conclusions if you want.
--------------------------

I have a shiradi sorc, that rotating chain and normal missiles gets 8 chances per second to stun at 7% chance each for 56% chance to no-save stun a mostly random target each second. I have to invest to get this by playing in Shiradi, which isn't much of an investment I'll be honest, but now does have the drawback of raid and EE adrenaline procs. Nerve venom only works on targets that can be poisoned, and most of the stuns will be proccing on targets other than your primary target.
--------------------------

I've played an AA, and pin and whistler twists provide 100% CC every 15 seconds when used well. One is a helpless stun, the other is a breakable dance CC. Pin a 6.7% stun/second, and Whistler is a 6.7% dance/second. Both require twists for high-dps builds, or a sacrifice of dps to play in Shiradi. Pin works on any non-boss that can be knocked down.

--------------------------

I have a TWF triple strength classed melee druid, which attacks around 5 times a second which gives a random stun every four seconds from no-save Balanced Attacks, which works on everything that can be knocked down. This costs a twist, like whistler or pin and is a 25% stun/second. This costs a shapeshifted druid which automatically uses TWF only a twist, but costs everyone else the use of superior THF mechanics which work better with cleave, groups of mobs, and double strike. Cleave effects add even more, but lets ignore that for now.

The druid in LD also has Anvil of Thunder, which has roughly a 60% chance of stunning every 12 seconds anything that you crit (.05 stuns/second). This costs a druid all die steps and LD destiny, since druids do not get die steps with the weapons listed for Anvil of Thunder, but would cost others nothing. This is a 5% stun/second.

The druid also has an 80% chance of stunning every 15 seconds with stunning blow. This costs a feat. This works on living non-boss stun-able mobs, and is mostly good for enemy casters, rogues and archers (5.3% stuns/second). There are good stunning items, so using them aren't really a cost. Triple strength classing gives really powerful characters, so that isn't a cost either.

The druid also has a 100% chance of stunning any non-boss with Ear Smash every 12 seconds (8.3% stuns/second). This costs barb levels, of which the cost was covered earlier, and is generally considered a fairly hefty cost.

This totals 43.6% stuns/second.

------------------------

So semi-randomly targeted random shiradi missile stuns go off 56% of the time per second, but has the drawback of giving EE and raid mobs adrenaline, and only works on targets that can be poisoned, and usually procs on secondary and not primary targets.

A mix of random chance and active stuns on a melee invested in them go off 43.6% per second, and something or other works on everything, and always is on your primary target.

Purely direct targeted stuns on a ranged character with pin go off 6.7% per second, and works on almost everything, and also is always on your primary target. IPS may double or triple this.

------------------------

Melee that build for them have the highest targetted stuns/second already by a huge margin. My build now with Great Cleave/Supreme Cleave surpasses the stuns/second my Shiradi Sorc can output with MM/CM, and they are all on melee targets I am beating on, while I am in LD which is a primary dps ED, and generally work on anything.

I'm all in favor of adding different stuns in to melee, and a variety of tactical feats with other interesting and fun effects, like charges or knockbacks. They just need to have sufficient cost, new formulas (like the sound burst SLA) and exclusivity because combining them with existing ones would otherwise be a disaster.

Otherwise you are going to end up with 1 stun/second builds, in LD, with Sense Weakness twisted and combat brute rolling, with enough dps to kill a stunned mob in 1 second, on a character with a r/w boost, in a party. That won't end well.

[Blackheartox]

Tilomare, couple things, havent grouped with you yet since your a stuck up ........
2nd you only do eh and mostly group with people that are bad at the game to get your selfestem so high that you can brag.
Im bored from game lately so i pay attention to lfms alot and troll more then play and you would be a worthy one to troll.
Have you done any achievment at all, beside grouping with gimps in eh and blitzing? As i know nope.

Try to group with a shuriken build with mortal fear and you wont feel so great anymore.

But actual people who are good on our server dont give a single fk to group with you since they finish quests before you charge yout 50 stacks to get blitz prepd.
Your stun chance proc calculation doesnt take in account that you are a druid with low saves that can be easily killed in a proper ee zergin group.

What cetus started with this thread is simple.
I have no idea why you are bringing your ******** braging ideas here.
You are against mechanics that promote non group play yet you brag about you having most kills and your DPSSSSSS and how noone ever can reach your kills? Am i dumb or am i the only one seing irony here. Sigh, sry fellas not all on cannith are dumb.

Ok now back to topic which deserves attention imo.

As melle in ee, we need to engage in close combat, so we take all of that ******** damage and we dont have so many ways to mitigate damage like ranged have.
Include the fact that ranged get no fail cc and can "range" never in need to go into harm.
What cetus is suggesting from my viewpoint is that its unfair how monkchery shiradery /either shuri or wizzys/ have best defense with supreme offense coverd in easy button win wheras you need to work to be effective as melle.
I want to add draconic sorcs to list, a simple mass hold with energy burst 1 shots whatever in ee. Its just 2 buttons and you kill a pack of mobs no matter the quest. Esp now that you can get 150 spp item when your 24.
Currently Effort =/ efficiency in ddo.
To promote more easy buttons for melle is a good start since we are the ones that take those 300 damage hits and we are the ones that get smacked by colors adrenaline proc, not the ranged.
Am i correct sir cetus with my understanding of your original post?
Bdw im all for "fixing" melle, i do play everything tho, from shiradery to archery to sorcery and esosery.
Ee isnt rly hard as melle, but a good shiradi caster or shuriken shiradi or monkcher will outperform a melle and wont need to work nor button mash.
I dont want them nerfed tho, they are fun, but to add something to melle would be a good start

[Seikojin]

Tilomare, couple things, havent grouped with you yet since your a stuck up dumbass.
2nd you only do eh and mostly group with people that are bad at the game to get your selfestem so high that you can brag.
Im bored from game lately so i pay attention to lfms alot and troll more then play and you would be a worthy one to troll.
Have you done any achievment at all, beside grouping with gimps in eh and blitzing? As i know nope.

Try to group with a shuriken build with mortal fear and you wont feel so great anymore.

But actual people who are good on our server dont give a single fk to group with you since they finish quests before you charge yout 50 stacks to get blitz prepd.
Your stun chance proc calculation doesnt take in account that you are a druid with low saves that can be easily killed in a proper ee zergin group.

What cetus started with this thread is simple.
I have no idea why you are bringing your ******** braging ideas here.
You are against mechanics that promote non group play yet you brag about you having most kills and your DPSSSSSS and how noone ever can reach your kills? Am i dumb or am i the only one seing irony here. Sigh, sry fellas not all on cannith are dumb.

Ok now back to topic which deserves attention imo.

As melle in ee, we need to engage in close combat, so we take all of that ******** damage and we dont have so many ways to mitigate damage like ranged have.
Include the fact that ranged get no fail cc and can "range" never in need to go into harm.
What cetus is suggesting from my viewpoint is that its unfair how monkchery shiradery /either shuri or wizzys/ have best defense with supreme offense coverd in easy button win wheras you need to work to be effective as melle.
I want to add draconic sorcs to list, a simple mass hold with energy burst 1 shots whatever in ee. Its just 2 buttons and you kill a pack of mobs no matter the quest. Esp now that you can get 150 spp item when your 24.
Currently Effort =/ efficiency in ddo.
To promote more easy buttons for melle is a good start since we are the ones that take those 300 damage hits and we are the ones that get smacked by colors adrenaline proc, not the ranged.
Am i correct sir cetus with my understanding of your original post?
Bdw im all for "fixing" melle, i do play everything tho, from shiradery to archery to sorcery and esosery.
Ee isnt rly hard as melle, but a good shiradi caster or shuriken shiradi or monkcher will outperform a melle and wont need to work nor button mash.
I dont want them nerfed tho, they are fun, but to add something to melle would be a good start

I think what he was trying to say is if they give melee's a ton of different stun options, then they will overstun and be opsince they can stunlock mobs. Not that ranged can't do that now, lol.

However, I think if the proc chance for shiradi on casters was properly working, it wouldn't as big of an issue. Rangers and monks, meh, they can only burst it. Mind you I think monk extra throwing based on wis is a little op.

[Blackheartox]

I think what he was trying to say is if they give melee's a ton of different stun options, then they will overstun and be opsince they can stunlock mobs. Not that ranged can't do that now, lol.

However, I think if the proc chance for shiradi on casters was properly working, it wouldn't as big of an issue. Rangers and monks, meh, they can only burst it. Mind you I think monk extra throwing based on wis is a little op.

Thing is the proc chance works correctly.
But best example i can give on a direct nerf would be if nerve venom worked just as lanter ring works.
Imagine, 1 proc per spell, not seperate procs for element damage/random effect/stun for every missile in casts.

[Cetus]

--------------------------

I have a shiradi sorc, that rotating chain and normal missiles gets 8 chances per second to stun at 7% chance each for 56% chance to no-save stun a mostly random target each second. I have to invest to get this by playing in Shiradi, which isn't much of an investment I'll be honest, but now does have the drawback of raid and EE adrenaline procs. Nerve venom only works on targets that can be poisoned, and most of the stuns will be proccing on targets other than your primary target.
--------------------------

I've played an AA, and pin and whistler twists provide 100% CC every 15 seconds when used well. One is a helpless stun, the other is a breakable dance CC. Pin a 6.7% stun/second, and Whistler is a 6.7% dance/second. Both require twists for high-dps builds, or a sacrifice of dps to play in Shiradi. Pin works on any non-boss that can be knocked down.

--------------------------

I have a TWF triple strength classed melee druid, which attacks around 5 times a second which gives a random stun every four seconds from no-save Balanced Attacks, which works on everything that can be knocked down. This costs a twist, like whistler or pin and is a 20% stun/second. This costs a shapeshifted druid which automatically uses TWF only a twist, but costs everyone else the use of superior THF mechanics which work better with cleave, groups of mobs, and double strike.

The druid in LD also has Anvil of Thunder, which has roughly a 60% chance of stunning every 12 seconds anything that you crit (.05 stuns/second). This costs a druid all die steps and LD destiny, since druids do not get die steps with the weapons listed for Anvil of Thunder, but would cost others nothing. This is a 5% stun/second.

The druid also has an 80% chance of stunning every 15 seconds with stunning blow. This costs a feat. This works on living non-boss stun-able mobs, and is mostly good for enemy casters, rogues and archers (5.3% stuns/second). There are good stunning items, so using them aren't really a cost. Triple strength classing gives really powerful characters, so that isn't a cost either.

The druid also has a 100% chance of stunning any non-boss with Ear Smash every 12 seconds (8.3% stuns/second). This costs barb levels, of which the cost was covered earlier, and is generally considered a fairly hefty cost.

This totals 38.6% stuns/second.

------------------------

So semi-randomly targeted random shiradi missile stuns go off 56% of the timer per second, but has the drawback of giving EE and raid mobs adrenaline, and only works on targets that can be poisoned, and usually procs on secondary and not primary targets.

A mix of random chance and active stuns on a melee invested in them go off 38.6% per second, and something or other works on everything, and always is on your primary target.

Purely direct targeted stuns on a ranged character with pin go off 6.7% per second, and works on almost everything, and also is always on your primary target. IPS may double or triple this.

I'm failing to see a prejudice on stun-designed characters that build for them. If anything, outside of the new soundburst SLA which I don't know enough about, I would say that melee that builds for them have the highest amount of stuns/second applicable to dps targets in the game by a decent margin. The stun rewards of a pin twist versus a balanced attacks twist is generally in favor of melee.

------------------------

Melee that build for them have the highest primary dps targetted stuns/second already by a huge margin. My build now with Great Cleave/Supreme Cleave surpasses the stuns/second my Shiradi Sorc can output with MM/CM, and they are all on melee targets I am beating on, while I am in LD which is a primary dps ED, and generally work on anything.

I'm all in favor of adding different stuns in to melee, and a variety of tactical feats with other interesting and fun effects, like charges or knockbacks. They just need to have sufficient cost, new formulas (like the sound burst SLA) and exclusivity because combining them with existing ones would otherwise be a disaster.

Otherwise you are going to end up with 1 stun/second builds, in LD, with Sense Weakness twisted and combat brute rolling, with enough dps to kill a mob in 1 second, on a character with a r/w boost, in a party. That won't end well.

Sigh..

Can you just simply state your bottom line? What is your ultimate point here? Are you claiming that shiradi casters and monkchers need investments that are on parr with melee to perform their CC abilities? Is that what you're trying to push here?

[Takllin]

Lol I know of a few exploits, but the only one I was using is pen and paper math. It lets you model dps before you ever make a character to see if your model is correct. The more times you do this the more accurate you get, until you understand dps mechanics fairly well. And yes, there are builds that aren't high dps builds ... and they need to enjoy grouping with others. You want to destroy that grouping fun by making triple class strength builds able to AoE Stun on top of all the advantages they already have for being triple classed? Ok. Fine. Release an epic AoE stunning blow feat and see what happens.

Nope that's not it.

TWF feats are not supposed to work in Wolf form. They currently do, and your using them with your build.

[Tilomere]

Sigh..

Can you just simply state your bottom line? What is your ultimate point here? Are you claiming that shiradi casters and monkchers need investments that are on parr with melee to perform their CC abilities? Is that what you're trying to push here?

Cetus was asking for more helpless tactics, including AoE helpless tactics, due to the belief that CC was being dominated by no-cost ranged abilities.

I'm merely showing the math that if you want serious tactics and helpless stuns on a melee, you can already get more of them on the targets that you in melee with than even a shiradi sorc spamming missiles, and many times more stuns than any ranged. If I simply stated that, no one would believe me.

If you add more in stuns in, without very careful placement and costs and scaling, you will end up with super builds that eclipse normal builds too much.

----------------------------------
I like druid, and adapted what I knew how to out of the Cetus build to druids to make a druid build. I know from my adaption experience the principles behind the dps of the Cetus build can be adapted to any class (druid adds +4 strength from animal growth, and loses all weapon dice, all classes match or exceed that, but druids do look cool, so who needs saving throws or [W] when you look cool). I know from experience that the damage of any such adaptions are already so high in LD as to make a stun a kill. Everyone knows what happens to group mechanics when AoE kills start being spammed.

Using a druid with a weak 19-20x3 base crit profile and weak 1d10 base weapon to hit unhealthy amounts of dps just proves the point, and since I like druids, was fun as well.

[Gremmlynn]

No, my argument is that one can already min-max to obliterate weak or strong enemies so fast that it is unfun for group members. An AoE stunning blow that is only usable by min-maxers after "investment" will make this worse.

Stunning blow in particular is a bad feat to model off of. You set it to work sometimes on an average pure or fun character, and a power-gamer makes it no-fail, and then makes use of no mercy/sense weakness/combat brute for triple damage. You set it to work sometimes for power-gamers, and average and fun players get another bad feat that is a trap to take. "Investment" being massive strength only available to certain min-max builds isn't a cost, since strength already is the primary dps stat. It is an exclusion of normal builds. A real cost would be a 50% damage penalty for a minute after using such a feat, or -10 all stats and 50% movement speed that comes with silver flame pots, or the even worse cost of needing 18 levels of barb or bard. No one feels bad about having 70+ strength so it isn't an investment cost. Neither is using a Mornh fort stunning DC. I use a mornh on my druid and have massive strength and let me tell you, I don't feel bad about either "investment" to make stunning blow work one bit.

What I see you asking for is a feat that makes elite builds even more elite. I disagree because my experience says that current elite builds are already too elite. Again, no problem here with a barb or bard melee tactics with AoE CC. They've already paid the price by playing under-powered classes. Is that what you are asking for, or are you looking to add an AoE stunning blow to the BF Cetus build?

I also care a great deal about player experiences. I would be ok with solo-only feats.Nice post...if only to point out how poorly designed this game is.

[Cetus]

Cetus was asking for more helpless tactics, including AoE helpless tactics, due to the belief that CC was being dominated by no-cost ranged abilities.

I'm merely showing the math that if you want serious tactics and helpless stuns on a melee, you can already get more of them on the targets that you in melee with than even a shiradi sorc spamming missiles, and many times more stuns than any ranged. If I simply stated that, no one would believe me.

If you add more in stuns in, without very careful placement and costs and scaling, you will end up with super builds that eclipse normal builds too much.

----------------------------------
I like druid, and adapted what I knew how to out of the Cetus build to druids to make a druid build. I know from my adaption experience the principles behind the dps of the Cetus build can be adapted to any class (druid adds +4 strength from animal growth, and loses all weapon dice, all classes match or exceed that, but druids do look cool, so who needs saving throws or [W] when you look cool). I know from experience that the damage of any such adaptions are already so high in LD as to make a stun a kill. Everyone knows what happens to group mechanics when AoE kills start being spammed.

Using a druid with a weak 19-20x3 crit profile and weak 1d10 base weapon to hit unhealthy amounts of dps just proves the point, and since I like druids, was fun as well.

This isn't a matter of belief. Do you see how poorly you manipulated the numbers, or do I need to go through an exhaustive and boring critique?

Its rather simple to see that spamming magic missile + force missile + free magic missile + magic missile again allows you to nerve venom your target essentially at will. It can be any non-named target in the game, it isn't bound by the limitations that stunning blow is, and it does not have any sort of cooldown. It also does not require any investment other than being in the destiny and having the spells themselves. You don't need to work toward anything in order to improve their impact, they simply work.

Sir, how do you not see this point.

Otto's whistler and pin also have no save, thus require no investment aside from just being twisted if not in shiradi. Improved precise shot allows a ranger to hit multiple targets with it, AT WILL.

Balancing strikes from primal avatar essentially rules out THF, has a 5% chance of landing, doesn't helpless anything, and lasts a mere 2 seconds.

If you are going to argue your points, bring solid evidence to backup your points, your work is still ahead of you to do so.

These aren't beliefs, these are in-game documented facts that nerve venom, otto's whister, pin, with improved precise shot provide archers and shiradi casters with the ability to CC way better than a melee can, and all of these abilities have no DC to build toward.

[Blackheartox]

This isn't a matter of belief. Do you see how poorly you manipulated the numbers, or do I need to go through an exhaustive and boring critique?

Its rather simple to see that spamming magic missile + force missile + free magic missile + magic missile again allows you to nerve venom your target essentially at will. It can be any non-named target in the game, it isn't bound by the limitations that stunning blow is, and it does not have any sort of cooldown. It also does not require any investment other than being in the destiny and having the spells themselves. You don't need to work toward anything in order to improve their impact, they simply work.

Sir, how do you not see this point.

Otto's whistler and pin also have no save, thus require no investment aside from just being twisted if not in shiradi. Improved precise shot allows a ranger to hit multiple targets with it, AT WILL.

Balancing strikes from primal avatar essentially rules out THF, has a 5% chance of landing, doesn't helpless anything, and lasts a mere 2 seconds.

If you are going to argue your points, bring solid evidence to backup your points, your work is still ahead of you to do so.

These aren't beliefs, these are in-game documented facts that nerve venom, otto's whister, pin, with improved precise shot provide archers and shiradi casters with the ability to CC way better than a melee can, and all of these abilities have no DC to build toward.

Not sure, but i think it actualy aplies helpless state

[Cetus]

Not sure, but i think it actualy aplies helpless state

Last I remember it didn't, but I'm always open to new information.

[Tilomere]

Last I remember it didn't, but I'm always open to new information.


Woot! Considering that almost everything I learned about how to dps came from converting your Cetus build to a druid, I get to finally teach you a single thing!

Yes, balanced attacks does apply helpless state!

I was going to talk about modifying the Cetus build to take advantage of this, but that would be a tad presumptuous.

I can apply more stuns in melee on my twf druid than I can on my shiradi sorc spamming missiles, on more types of mobs.

------------
I can't necessarily live though it with a druid/barb combo, but I'm certain that if anyone can figure it out, you can! The defense part is still a discovery work in progress for me. I couldn't quite figure out how to get displacement clickies/reconstruct/evasion/divine grace on a druid/barb in animal form. Let me know if you have any pointers.

I did have this crazy idea of making a BF druid after an alignment and class change, and taking 3 artificer levels for construct essence to add repair ability in animal form, and use druid mana procs to fuel it, but it won't let you take construct essence as a warforged race. I was [---] that close to making a BF Cetus-Adapted Druid.

---------------------
Hmm ... I just realized that by arguing against more stuns due to already being able to make OP characters by doing X, I sorta just outlined how to make OP characters by doing X. Meh, not like anyone reads the forums or follows or adapts the Cetus build anyway.

--------------

In terms of the no work it's hard to beat the completely effortless on hit CC affects combined with the cleaves you are using anyway for maximum dps as a TWFer. And since the CC is a stun which increases damage, you are maximizing damage by cleaving which further maximizes damage by auto-stunning.

[Gremmlynn]

Sap, Feint, Sunder, what is that, noone uses those anymore.At least as far as sunder goes, or better yet imp sunder, I would have to say they are foolish, a successful sunder debuffs the targets save vs a follow up stunning blow by 4, imp sunder by 8.

Frankly, this is where I would like to see more tactics added, in the debuff area. Debuff a targets damage, attack speed, ability to use tactics or special abilities, etc.

[Blackheartox]

Woot! Considering that almost everything I learned about how to dps came from converting your Cetus build to a druid, I get to finally teach you a single thing!

Yes, balanced attacks does apply helpless state!

I was going to talk about modifying the Cetus build to take advantage of this, but that would be a tad presumptuous.

I can apply more stuns in melee on my twf druid than I can on my shiradi sorc spamming missiles, on more types of mobs. I can't necessarily live though it with a druid/barb combo, but I'm certain that if anyone can figure it out, you can! The defense part is still a discovery work in progress for me. I couldn't quite figure out how to get displacement clickies/reconstruct/evasion/divine grace on a druid/barb in animal form. Let me know if you have any pointers.

I did have this crazy idea of making a BF druid after an alignment and class change, and taking 3 artificer levels for construct essence to add repair ability in animal form, and use druid mana procs to fuel it, but it won't let you take construct essence as a warforged race. I was [---] that close to making a BF Cetus-Adapted Druid.

Why just not totaly drop barb idea and go for monk druid smtjhn. More survival that way, less dps, but dead things do 0 dps anyways.
The op-nes from 12 fight 6 monk 2 palie doesnt come from dps alone, but saves aquired from d grace and shadow fade grasp combo while being bf. You are practicaly a killing machine that cant be stoped.
Druid builds cant be splashed with palie so thats alrdy a huge drawback there, you need to use a a aligment change and a heart to make it as bf as well.
In theory a druid build is amazing, in practice in any higher tougher ee a cetus will outperform a druid if played right.
You can get stacks in pugs with manyshot, and once you get 2-3 you basicaly just blitz til you kill the boss.
Ideas i have for 2weap fight include mainly a ranger build, of course i would most gladly play a centerd kopesh or scimmy build.
But realisticaly there is no split to make those things work well together. For now a ranger monk palie bf with shortswords seems ok /and i rly like celestia. Lower crit profile for new weapons but with killer rolling and 100% off strike it should prove to be ok. Still trying to decide on split tho, depending on feats either 10 6 4 or 12 6 2.
To get centerd kopeshes would need to sacrifice palie if i also want ranged so dont like that idea.
Scimmy on 12 fight 6 monk 2 palie might be ok tho.
Any input on ideas? Will do once i get 2 ep plifes done, still having fun with esos.

[Nodoze]

Why just not totaly drop barb idea and go for monk druid smtjhn. More survival that way, less dps, but dead things do 0 dps anyways.
The op-nes from 12 fight 6 monk 2 palie doesnt come from dps alone, but saves aquired from d grace and shadow fade grasp combo while being bf. You are practicaly a killing machine that cant be stoped.
Druid builds cant be splashed with palie so thats alrdy a huge drawback there, you need to use a a aligment change and a heart to make it as bf as well.
In theory a druid build is amazing, in practice in any higher tougher ee a cetus will outperform a druid if played right.
You can get stacks in pugs with manyshot, and once you get 2-3 you basicaly just blitz til you kill the boss.
Ideas i have for 2weap fight include mainly a ranger build, of course i would most gladly play a centerd kopesh or scimmy build.
But realisticaly there is no split to make those things work well together. For now a ranger monk palie bf with shortswords seems ok /and i rly like celestia. Lower crit profile for new weapons but with killer rolling and 100% off strike it should prove to be ok. Still trying to decide on split tho, depending on feats either 10 6 4 or 12 6 2.
To get centerd kopeshes would need to sacrifice palie if i also want ranged so dont like that idea.
Scimmy on 12 fight 6 monk 2 palie might be ok tho.
Any input on ideas? Will do once i get 2 ep plifes done, still having fun with esos.I would be interested in seeing what you come up with from a TWF standpoint though you will likely need to move APs around to get your offhand to approach 100% and thus lose some DPS while gaining some...

[Blackheartox]

I would be interested in seeing what you come up with from a TWF standpoint though you will likely need to move APs around to get your offhand to approach 100% and thus lose some DPS while gaining some...

Yes, totaly aware of this.. Still trying to figure what to do. You need to drop something, but you know how hard it is to drop something when you see so much potential heh

[NaturalHazard]

Balancing strikes from primal avatar essentially rules out THF, has a 5% chance of landing, doesn't helpless anything, and lasts a mere 2 seconds.

.

Even when I was farming ED xp in that destiny on a 2wf I did not find it to be *that* useful, on a 2wf I would prefer the Fotw knockdown effect ability. Sure I suppose you could twist it in, but thats quite a high twist slot that could go to something else, a tier 3 slot of 5% knockdown? Seems a bit steep, one thing I didnt like about it is its a 5% random chance with the Fotw overload one I could use the knockdown when I most needed it and with 2wf was not that hard to get my adrenaline's back. I could more rely on it to use when I most needed it, than a 5% random chance proc.

[Cetus]

Well its interesting if it does provide helpless, but I wouldn't convert to TWF for a 5% chance to helpless a target for 2 seconds. It still sounds very weak for the effort. Then I'd have to accommodate all TWF feats, pick up extra 10% offhand proc, use a tier 3 twist slot, etc. This makes my point precisely, we just don't have powerful CC options, much less ones that we can control.

[NaturalHazard]

Well its interesting if it does provide helpless, but I wouldn't convert to TWF for a 5% chance to helpless a target for 2 seconds. It still sounds very weak for the effort. Then I'd have to accommodate all TWF feats, pick up extra 10% offhand proc, use a tier 3 twist slot, etc. This makes my point precisely, we just don't have powerful CC options, much less ones that we can control.

would you be happy if we could get some more even aoe CC's but especially for the AOE ones they do not render a helpless state?

[Wipey]

It still is probably the best twist for "non tactics" twf either in Fury or LD.
Ranger ? Even with DM and pita Tensor ing, Stun Blow is as much reliable as that Balanced Attacks.
Not gonna count on it against that chaining Shadar Kai or dangerous orange named ( will Adrenaline that sucker ) but for "normal trash" is quite helpful. I love it on ranger ( unless heavy duty boss dmg then Grim Precision is better )

Funny enough, levelling "Maddmatt's barbie build".
13-20 twf Mornhs for Anvil of Thunder, Barbie Ear Smash and Balanced Attacks. Basically non reliable yet I hope somewhat effective when put together cc.
She has 3 fighter lives, got 5 tome and I still am not decided about Stun Blow ironically.
With EE saves that is what most folks have to work around with.

Similar to the whole Shiradi mess ( you won't get any whining from me, wizzy sits at 71 necro, cleric at 74 evo cause I invested a LOT into those toons ), but can understand if someone chooses "easier" path.

[Tilomere]

Well its interesting if it does provide helpless, but I wouldn't convert to TWF for a 5% chance to helpless a target for 2 seconds. It still sounds very weak for the effort. Then I'd have to accommodate all TWF feats, pick up extra 10% offhand proc, use a tier 3 twist slot, etc. This makes my point precisely, we just don't have powerful CC options.


The difference in dps on a stunned vs unstunned mob for my druid was 4.6 kdps. A two second stun was an additional 9.2k damage my druid could do to that mob. The balanced attack twist alone going off every four seconds just from auto attacks (let alone cleaves) added up to 2,300 dps to my druid, or more dps than the average player.

[Cetus]

2 seconds was forever on my druid build, but it had 3.6 kdps on normal and 8.2 kdps on helpless targets. It has less now, since I've adapted it to survive better and AoE better.

The difference in dps on a stunned mob for my druid was 4.6 kdps. A two second stun was an additional 9.2k potential damage my druid could do to that mob. The balanced attack twist alone going off every four seconds just from auto attacks (let alone cleaves) added up to 2,300 dps to my druid, or more dps than the average player.

I don't know fighters, I don't know Cetus builds outside of their adaption to Druids. I know druid, and I know that my balanced attack twist on auto attack alone resulted in more dps than most players are capable of, on top of free CC. Basically, every four seconds Balanced Attack obliterated something with no save. Think quivering palm, 9.2k extra damage to the face no save.

I honestly mostly stopped playing in LD. It was grossly overkill when blitzed, and no one loves charging blitz anyway, although my updated cleaving build does that just fine. I love the new ED better. Power waxing and waning, group healing utility. Themes and debuffs to bounce around. Another cleave :) Very cool.

------------------

I also know barbs now some. I know that spamming AoE cleaves with balanced attacks and a golden guile decently well now and it provides a druid/barb with a decent but not perfect AoE defense.

----------------

I'm fairly certain that supreme cleave can probably be replaced with whirlwhind/momentum swing/lay waste and should work out. Probably far better due to the consistency of Lay Waste and reconstruct, plus offhand CC which wolves do not get to use. You may need to use a draining offhand as a permanent melee that takes more damage, or more paladin levels and some mental toughness feats. You may need to use feats and twists up that would allow you to also work as an IPS archer at the same time. You may need more fighter levels to truly master ranged and melee combat at the same time in EE. The honest truth is I don't know fighters well enough how to make it exactly work, but am fairly certain it can be made to work, since I did it on a shapeshifted druid with 0 extra feats and 0 druid enhancements giving me anything I needed. Or you can take a few barb levels.

For all the costs of barb levels, you still don't die constantly and do tons of damage. It's not nearly as bad as everyone says. Or, if all else fails, you can always switch to a druid! You don't need saving throws or [W]. Evasion, pshaw! Self or AoE healing, ok fine. What you really need is a big bad PDK extra large fire shield red glowing wolf, because if you can get tons of CC and dps and self healing on anything, you might as well pick something that looks cool.

Dude, I really don't know what you're saying - can you trim down these posts - they're exhausting to read

[NaturalHazard]

Dude, I really don't know what you're saying - can you trim down these posts - they're exhausting to read

balanced attack makes mobs helpless? Its good for druids?

[Blackheartox]

Dude, I really don't know what you're saying - can you trim down these posts - they're exhausting to read
It goes: smthn smthn big numbers, smthn smthn, big numbers, smthn smthn, speculated numbers, smthn smthn, druids are good.
Dont buff melles.

Thats how i read it usualy.

[Tilomere]

Try this, get back to me if you feel it can't be optimized further into what you are looking for. I've reorganized the Cetus build trying to keep most of your feats and enhancements intact, but with an AoE CC effect in mind that still does tons of damage.

Feats

Ranged:

1. Shuriken Expertise

Melee:
2. Whirlwhind
3. Combat Expertise
4. Dodge
5. Mobility
6. Spring Attack

7. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
8. Power Attack (Should be taken as Level 1 or 2 Monk class feat)
9. Two Weapon Fighting (Should be taken as Level 1 or 2 Monk Class feat)
10. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11. Stunning Blow
12. Weapon focus: Blunt or weapon type of Anvil of Thunder
13. Greater Weapon Focus: Blunt or weapon type of Anvil of Thunder
14. Weapon Specialization: Blunt or weapon type of Anvil of Thunder
15. Improved Critical: Blunt or weapon type of Anvil of Thunder
16. Cleave
17. Great Cleave
18. Overwhelming Critical


Other:

19. Completionist or 10k Stars
20. Master of Forms (Adept is granted at level 6 monk, so this will occupy an epic feat slot)
21. Paladin: Follower of the Lord of Blades
22. Monk: Light Path
23. Level 26: Perfect Two Weapon fighting
24. Level 28: Tactics


Twists:
Bane of Undeath
Sense Weakness
Balanced Attacks

Enhancements:

Kensei:

One with the Mornh, or whatever TWF you use, action boosts for combat brute.

33 AP

Ninja Spy:

No Mercy, shadow fade, extra shurikens (uncenter yourself with offhand to use str for damage)

26 AP

Bladeforged:

-Improved Fortification Core
-Mechanist 3
-Communion of Scribing 3
13 AP

Knight of the Chalice

-First Core
-Extra turning 3
-Extra smite 1 (dump point)
-Divine Might 1**
5 AP

3 AP - Shintao Deft Strikes 1

Weapons: Stunning 1H/Draining 1H. Shuriken/shield. Golden Guile

---------------------------------

Otherwise I'm trying to explain the power of .38 stuns/second to someone who has never experienced it, and that's too complex.

[Blackheartox]

Try this, get back to me if you feel it can't be optimized further into what you are looking for.

Feats

Ranged:

1. Shuriken Expertise

Melee:
2. Whirlwhind
3. Combat Expertise
4. Dodge
5. Mobility
6. Spring Attack

7. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
8. Power Attack (Should be taken as Level 1 or 2 Monk class feat)
9. Two Weapon Fighting (Should be taken as Level 1 or 2 Monk Class feat)
10. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11. Stunning Blow
12. Weapon focus: Blunt
13. Greater Weapon Focus: Blunt
14. Weapon Specialization: Blunt
15. Improved Critical: Blunt
16. Cleave
17. Great Cleave
18. Overwhelming Critical


Other:

19. Completionist or 10k Stars
20. Master of Forms (Adept is granted at level 6 monk, so this will occupy an epic feat slot)
21. Paladin: Follower of the Lord of Blades
22. Monk: Light Path
23. Level 26: Perfect Two Weapon fighting
24. Level 28: Tactics


Twists:
Bane of Undeath
Sense Weakness
Balanced Attacks

Enhancements:

Kensei:

One with the Mornh, or whateve TWF you use, plus whatever you were already getting.

~33 AP

Ninja Spy:

No Mercy, shadow fade, extra shurikens (uncenter yourself with offhand to use str for damage)

26 AP

Bladeforged:

-Improved Fortification Core
-Mechanist 3
-Communion of Scribing 3
13 AP

Knight of the Chalice

-First Core
-Extra turning 3
-Extra smite 1 (dump point)
-Divine Might 1**
5 AP

3 AP - Whatevers. 3 more WF tactics I guess. Maybe con and more fort?

Weapons: Stunning 1H/Draining 1H. Shuriken/shield.

---------------------------------

If my theory is right, you will find that the loss of crit profile or damage die to be irrelevant. Each stun is a kill with enough raw dps and helpless damage, and the only thing that ultimately matters is stuns/second. That's why I use a 1d10 druid with a 19-20x3 crit profile. Druids are cool.

Wait wait, why d fk would you pick shurikens with only shuriken expertise /that throws extra based on dex, on a dex penalized race without quick draw and any ranged feats?
Dude do you know how d hell shurikens work at all?
Spend ap to get extra shuriken throws but be uncenterd which kills the ap spent for that purpose.
I dont want to coment on whirlwind attack.. Combat expertise? dodge? mobility? what purpose?
In your aps you dont pick power of the forge? Its like *** when i look at this ******** idea.
Sry for being offensive but this build makes no sense whatsover.

[Tilomere]

I can't explain the power of .38 stuns/second up to double-ish with cleaves on a LD melee to a player who has never experienced it. I'm trying to explain to you the effect of an automatically targeted and used stunning blow feat every second at 38-100% working rate on a mob you are in melee with. You are just going to have to try it to find out.

No-fail Stunning Blow at 1 stun every 15 seconds is .067 stuns/second, and only works on a limited amount of mob types and has a save. Stunning blow is 1/6th to 1/12th as powerful as what I am talking about, on a limited amount of mob types.

So yea, not only are Druids cool, but after this sinks in you realize that since you know enough mechanics to make a solid dps character out of anything, you might as well be a BIG BAD GLOWING WOLF. It's like strength on a a melee. It just makes sense.

Shurikens are bugged. Don't want to go into why and workarounds here.

[Dalsheel]

It has to do with the fact that right now the only reliable way for non (unarmed) Monks to have CC in the game is Stunning Blow.
which has a 12second(?) cooldown and needs and insane investment of gear, past lives, str, and class splits to work. And it only works on one mob at a time; which when your main destiny kind of dictates you fight large groups of mobs(really? what destiny is that?) is not very powerful.



Insane investment?!?!
You probably have different definition for investment than me, cause an ability that improves with STR on a melee build hardly needs any investment, you were going to be raising STR as high as possible anyway.

Try getting that 79 stun DC that Cetus build has on a monk and then we can talk about investment cost.

Get serious people, Cleave Stunning blow never gonna happen, we don't need it, it'll be absurdly OP and it'll make the difference between veterans and new players even larger.

[Blackheartox]

I can't explain the power of .38 stuns/second up to triple with cleaves on a LD melee to a player who has never experienced it. I'm trying to explain to you the effect of an automatically targeted and used stunning blow feat every second at 38-100% working rate on mobs you are in melee with. You are just going to have to try it to find out.
Im just asking why the pointles feats and build, shurikens etc. It has nothing to do with stuns but with feats that are front loaded and are useless for any build.
Example, 10 k? On a str con char heavy dependent build, where will you find the wisdom to get at least 2 shuris per throw? On a wisdom dex penalized build? You need some con to be a melle, your build idea is incredibly bad.
You dont need to explain to me nothing, since you lack of common sense when it comes to build a proper ee solo melle build has been shown by your own writing, since you dont have a basic idea how to make one.
I dont need to point more flaws, you alrdy wrote in your own posts how you lack basic sense on effectively making a ee solo melle.
Like druids no matter how you want, but your idea on a druid isnt good.
You can make proper druids wolfs that can actualy survive ee-s.
IF i like bards, that doesnt mean bards are best which you are constantly trying to do with your druid giberish.
Im out of here, no point to argue anymore. To sleepy to read more nonsense from someone who prolly abuses the throwers bug and claims he is pro.

[Takllin]

Insane investment?!?!
You probably have different definition for investment than me, cause an ability that improves with STR on a melee build hardly needs any investment, you were going to be raising STR as high as possible anyway.

Try getting that 79 stun DC that Cetus build has on a monk and then we can talk about investment cost.

Get serious people, Cleave Stunning blow never gonna happen, we don't need it, it'll be absurdly OP and it'll make the difference between veterans and new players even larger.

Umm did you read the same Cetus build thread that I did? Have you played your own version of his build?

There is a stupid amount of investment needed to get a workable stunning DC...

On my monk wraps build, I can get a mid-low 70s stun DC with not nearly as much investment as I need to on my Cetus clone...If I went BF, I could get it even higher

If you have a group of, lets say 5 creatures. It would take ~3 seconds for a Shirardi Caster to get them all nerve venomed. It would take probably 5-6 for an AA with Nerve Venom or Pin/Ottos. It would take a melee, 60-75 SECONDS, IF they all fail the save. Nerve Venom/Otto's Whistler/Pin have no save...

So how is it melees are even remotely on the same level as a caster or AA?

I'm not advocating for an AoE stun effect, but there needs to be something added, and the CD of Stunning Blow has to be decreased.

[Blackheartox]

Umm did you read the same Cetus build thread that I did? Have you played your own version of his build?

There is a stupid amount of investment needed to get a workable stunning DC...

On my monk wraps build, I can get a mid-low 70s stun DC with not nearly as much investment as I need to on my Cetus clone...If I went BF, I could get it even higher

If you have a group of, lets say 5 creatures. It would take ~3 seconds for a Shirardi Caster to get them all nerve venomed. It would take probably 5-6 for an AA with Nerve Venom or Pin/Ottos. It would take a melee, 60-75 SECONDS, IF they all fail the save. Nerve Venom/Otto's Whistler/Pin have no save...

How is what melees have now even remotely on the same level as a caster or AA.

I'm not advocating for an AoE stun effect, but there needs to be something added, and the CD of Stunning Blow has to be decreased.

Finaly someone on right track. Bows to you. Yes cd reduce for stun blow would be a good start considering how hard it is to get dc for stun blow compared to stun fist

[Dalsheel]

Umm did you read the same Cetus build thread that I did? Have you played your own version of his build?

There is a stupid amount of investment needed to get a workable stunning DC...


I don't need to read the thread or play it myself to understand basics, tyvm.

Power Surge: would be there regardless of SB or not cause it boosts DPS
Divine Might: see Power Surge entry
BF Tactics: 3 DC for 3 APs... hardly an investment
Kensei Tactics: How many tiers of this do you purchase? Tier1 for AP-spent requirement probably? I know you would skip it otherwise.
BF Fightful Presence: Amazing regardless of tactics or not, helps all party members besides your tactics, especially when you have cleave attacks. Would probably be there anyway, SB or not. Also used as a way to meet AP-spent requirement for higher tiers.

What am I missing?

[Blackheartox]

I don't need to read the thread or play it myself to understand basics, tyvm.

Power Surge: would be there regardless of SB or not cause it boosts DPS
Divine Might: see Power Surge entry
BF Tactics: 3 DC for 3 APs... hardly an investment
Kensei Tactics: How many tiers of this do you purchase? Tier1 for AP-spent requirement probably? I know you would skip it otherwise.
BF Fightful Presence: Amazing regardless of tactics or not, helps all party members besides your tactics, especially when you have cleave attacks. Would probably be there anyway, SB or not. Also used as a way to meet AP-spent requirement for higher tiers.

What am I missing?

Stunning fist vs stunning blow.
Stun fist dc calculated 10 + half char level +wisdom multiplifer +stuning items /plfies/enchan
So you get at lv 28 minimum dc of 24.
Start with 16 wisdom as example, 11 item 3 insight 1 exp 2 shipie 5 tome 2 completionist 2 yugo as bare minimum.
And you end at 42 wisdom minimum. Pick 2 from monks and its 44 wisdom giving a modifier of 17 pumping your stun fist dc to 41 before stuning items. Add 3 fighter plifes 44 alrdy. 16 from items. 60 dc with 0 effort.
To get stuning blow to 60 dc you need +50 modifier either from str items or whatever.
Stuning fist with a cd of 6 seconds and a double proc chance is more easier to get into high numbers then stuning blow. Why?
Power surge and d might arent endless, you cannot boost at start in first couple fights at free will. You could sustain dmight longer but not surge as well.
Add in the fact that you can go pure monk get more wisdoms be helf with fight dilly splash fighter get 6 from dread tactics 2 from edest etc etc.
Stuning fist is less dependent on gear then stun blow, and superior in any way as a melle cc. Not everyone has a dun robar 10 stun fist ring and ee consuming to make a cetus stun land, wheres anyone can get wraps from citw box and get a cloack from challenges for 6 dc.

This was just a basic example. Stuning fist is less dependent and not heavy gear plifes dependent compared to stun blow and the most superior stuning feat a melle has acces to

[Takllin]

I don't need to read the thread or play it myself to understand basics, tyvm.

Power Surge: would be there regardless of SB or not cause it boosts DPS
Divine Might: see Power Surge entry
BF Tactics: 3 DC for 3 APs... hardly an investment
Kensei Tactics: How many tiers of this do you purchase? Tier1 for AP-spent requirement probably? I know you would skip it otherwise.
BF Fightful Presence: Amazing regardless of tactics or not, helps all party members besides your tactics, especially when you have cleave attacks. Would probably be there anyway, SB or not. Also used as a way to meet AP-spent requirement for higher tiers.

What am I missing?

That your cornered into using 2 of your available 3 class splits if you want to have a workable Stunning Blow DC. This isn't about making one particular build more powerful. It is about giving the game more diversity...

The gear, the past lives, completionist, epic completionist. You also put 6 points into Kensai DC Boost.

Please go play the build before you act like you know what your talking about.

You also told me ingame that I needed healing amp on my Bladeforged so...

[NaturalHazard]

I don't need to read the thread or play it myself to understand basics, tyvm.

Power Surge: would be there regardless of SB or not cause it boosts DPS
Divine Might: see Power Surge entry
BF Tactics: 3 DC for 3 APs... hardly an investment
Kensei Tactics: How many tiers of this do you purchase? Tier1 for AP-spent requirement probably? I know you would skip it otherwise.
BF Fightful Presence: Amazing regardless of tactics or not, helps all party members besides your tactics, especially when you have cleave attacks. Would probably be there anyway, SB or not. Also used as a way to meet AP-spent requirement for higher tiers.

What am I missing?

the past lives? the gear slotted instead of maybe something else? the investment in enhancement points and yes ED points into tactics that could go somewhere else. The feats as well.

But you said it would make the gap between power gamers and other players worse how about some feats/abilities that would work for the non power gamers and close the gap and not too over power the power gamers? let us not also forget the 15 second cool down on stunning blow.

[BigErkyKid]

The way I read this thread.


1. Cetus says that melees have little play options, suggests bringing back tactics for more varied action.

2. People get mad and say that an AoE stun would make new players feel gimp.

3. Someone people jump in and start talking about different builds...

How is the option of more tactics bad? Are we against more variety in the game?

It is a PITA to get workable DCs for tactics for fighters in end game and given their cooldown it is probably a bad idea in general.

Give some additional options to melees to INVEST enhancements and twists for workable tactics. Make it come at a cost, for instance, give up on DPS or say give up on shadow veil.

PS - Anything that requires investment and DCs will generally make the new players fall behind in that aspect. This is because when you start playing you lack the foresight to make long term investments. The beauty of this game is that if you keep playing you peel more layers and can make better characters.

[Tilomere]

Dude, I really don't know what you're saying - can you trim down these posts - they're exhausting to read

Does the twf version of your build kill an EE mob in a two second stun? If the answer is yes, then it doesn't really matter that it is only two seconds. What does matter is how often you can get that two second stun to go off.

I also don't understand why you are willing to put so much of what you feel is investment into stunning blow, but when shown a way to get 5x as many stuns as stunning blow on mob types like elementals and undead you yourself wanted in your original post, you think the cost is too great.

[NaturalHazard]

Does the twf version of your build kill an EE mob in a two second stun? If the answer is yes, then it doesn't really matter that it is only two seconds. What does matter is how often you can get that two second stun to go off.

I also don't understand why you are willing to put so much of what you feel is investment into stunning blow, but when shown a way to get 5x as many stuns as stunning blow on mob types like elementals and undead you yourself wanted in your original post, you think the cost is too great.

is the helpless state it induces wai?

[Takllin]

Does the twf version of your build kill an EE mob in a two second stun? If the answer is yes, then it doesn't really matter that it is only two seconds. What does matter is how often you can get that two second stun to go off.

I also don't understand why you are willing to put so much of what you feel is investment into stunning blow, but when shown a way to get 5x as many stuns as stunning blow on mob types like elementals and undead you yourself wanted in your original post, you think the cost is too great.

That doesn't add any diversity, it just pidgeon holes people into using the same build/twists/etc...

It also is not nearly as reliable as Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist.

[Thrudh]

I don't think melees needs a serious tactics overhaul...

Some of the existing abilities just need a little work.

Stunning Blow, Stunning Fist, and Trip are all pretty good... Maybe some more gear or enhancements to help us boost our DCs just a little bit more. Maybe shorten Stunning Blow cooldown to be the same as Stunning Fist.

I think it would be cool if Whirlwind Attack allowed for an AOE trip effect. Maybe barbarian's supreme cleave too.

Adrenaline knockdown from Fury is excellent...
Lay Waste is okay, but the mobs need to stay tripped longer, or the cooldown needs to be seriously reduced (or both). Right now, it's not worth much.

I never knew balanced strikes had a knockdown component..... I'm going to twist it in tonight, and see how good it is on my TWF guy... 2 seconds seems pretty short... but it might work...

[Thrudh]

At least as far as sunder goes, or better yet imp sunder, I would have to say they are foolish, a successful sunder debuffs the targets save vs a follow up stunning blow by 4, imp sunder by 8.

Frankly, this is where I would like to see more tactics added, in the debuff area. Debuff a targets damage, attack speed, ability to use tactics or special abilities, etc.

Good point.

[Thrudh]

Finaly someone on right track. Bows to you. Yes cd reduce for stun blow would be a good start considering how hard it is to get dc for stun blow compared to stun fist

I agree with this. That alone would be very useful, and would be a very easy change for the devs.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

interesting. Passing along.

[J-mann]

Insane investment?!?!
You probably have different definition for investment than me, cause an ability that improves with STR on a melee build hardly needs any investment, you were going to be raising STR as high as possible anyway.

Try getting that 79 stun DC that Cetus build has on a monk and then we can talk about investment cost.

Get serious people, Cleave Stunning blow never gonna happen, we don't need it, it'll be absurdly OP and it'll make the difference between veterans and new players even larger.

Again, no more op than, oh lets say, a only fail on 1 mass hold, dance, earthquake, soundburst, or no save at all nerve venom, pin, whislter, irriesistable dance. All of those exist, and heres the great thing, the classes that use those dont have to STAND NEXT to the mobs doing 200+ damage a swing to get them to work.... but im afraid you will not get the point.


the past lives? the gear slotted instead of maybe something else? the investment in enhancement points and yes ED points into tactics that could go somewhere else. The feats as well.

But you said it would make the gap between power gamers and other players worse how about some feats/abilities that would work for the non power gamers and close the gap and not too over power the power gamers? let us not also forget the 15 second cool down on stunning blow.

Someone gets it /clap. Do you people realize that there is not a lot of tactics boosting gear out there and to use it means to likely dedicate that slot SOLOLY to tactics (specially since other than consuming darkness its all outdated)? A caster is a lot more flexible with thier dc boosting items than melee are with their tactic boosting items (ie a caster could care less if they have to use a loot gen weapon to get their dcs, a melee cares greatly)


I can't explain the power of .38 stuns/second up to double-ish with cleaves on a LD melee to a player who has never experienced it. I'm trying to explain to you the effect of an automatically targeted and used stunning blow feat every second at 38-100% working rate on a mob you are in melee with. You are just going to have to try it to find out.

No-fail Stunning Blow at 1 stun every 15 seconds is .067 stuns/second, and only works on a limited amount of mob types and has a save. Stunning blow is 1/6th to 1/12th as powerful as what I am talking about, on a limited amount of mob types.

So yea, not only are Druids cool, but after this sinks in you realize that since you know enough mechanics to make a solid dps character out of anything, you might as well be a BIG BAD GLOWING WOLF. It's like strength on a a melee. It just makes sense.

Shurikens are bugged. Don't want to go into why and workarounds here.

Random, and needs to be in melee range, vs on demand and/or at ranged..... yeah not even remotely comparable. It doesnt matter how many stuns/sec you can get till, if those stuns are not at the appropriate time, or on the appropriate mob. Also in EE, you are standing next to those mobs... taking 200+ a swing... while the casters and archers are lol kiting and ccing em all in on spell/shot.

[maddmatt70]

I don't think melees needs a serious tactics overhaul...

Some of the existing abilities just need a little work.

Stunning Blow, Stunning Fist, and Trip are all pretty good... Maybe some more gear or enhancements to help us boost our DCs just a little bit more. Maybe shorten Stunning Blow cooldown to be the same as Stunning Fist.

I think it would be cool if Whirlwind Attack allowed for an AOE trip effect. Maybe barbarian's supreme cleave too.

Adrenaline knockdown from Fury is excellent...
Lay Waste is okay, but the mobs need to stay tripped longer, or the cooldown needs to be seriously reduced (or both). Right now, it's not worth much.

I never knew balanced strikes had a knockdown component..... I'm going to twist it in tonight, and see how good it is on my TWF guy... 2 seconds seems pretty short... but it might work...

I totally disagree with you here. I just think that Turbine probably does not have the resources to really make an overhaul; hence, this falls under the category of do not make a change at this time.. Trip for e.g. should be overhauled because it does not have the same impact that it does in PNP, Sunder the same thing. There is no overrun or bull rush or Grapple in DDO. There are really very few tactics of any kind in DDO. The ones actually in game are flawed like stunning blow has too long of a cooldown or trip is not very powerful like it is in PNP.

I detest what you call a tactic. Adrenaline knockdown and lay waste are not tactics because the monsters do not have a save or way of preventing these effects and the same goes for ear smash. These are not tactics in my opinion because a tactic in D&D means that a monster has a way of preventing it. In D&D there are tactic builds and certain mobs where employing specific tactics make sense - these abilities like adrenaline knockdown, ear smash, etc. are auto success and hence not tactics. I would like the monsters to have saves for these based on any criteria the devs think are sufficient. The dev time it would take to make real tactics is problematic.

[Dalsheel]

Funny how people would try to reduce the value of an ability they love just to convince the devs that a more potent one is needed.


Stunning fist vs stunning blow.
Stun fist dc calculated 10 + half char level +wisdom multiplifer +stuning items /plfies/enchan
So you get at lv 28 minimum dc of 24.
Start with 16 wisdom as example, 11 item 3 insight 1 exp 2 shipie 5 tome 2 completionist 2 yugo as bare minimum.
And you end at 42 wisdom minimum. Pick 2 from monks and its 44 wisdom giving a modifier of 17 pumping your stun fist dc to 41 before stuning items. Add 3 fighter plifes 44 alrdy. 16 from items. 60 dc with 0 effort.
To get stuning blow to 60 dc you need +50 modifier either from str items or whatever.
Stuning fist with a cd of 6 seconds and a double proc chance is more easier to get into high numbers then stuning blow. Why?
Power surge and d might arent endless, you cannot boost at start in first couple fights at free will. You could sustain dmight longer but not surge as well.
Add in the fact that you can go pure monk get more wisdoms be helf with fight dilly splash fighter get 6 from dread tactics 2 from edest etc etc.
Stuning fist is less dependent on gear then stun blow, and superior in any way as a melle cc. Not everyone has a dun robar 10 stun fist ring and ee consuming to make a cetus stun land, wheres anyone can get wraps from citw box and get a cloack from challenges for 6 dc.

This was just a basic example. Stuning fist is less dependent and not heavy gear plifes dependent compared to stun blow and the most superior stuning feat a melle has acces to

A wall of text trying to explain how SF DC improves... It goes without saying that to do all you describe requires effort. The same effort that fighters use to improve their SB DC.
Monks and fighters use the same Stun DC boosting items. The difference is that while fighters get their DC from STR that also happens to be their DPS score, monks have to balance between STR and WIS. That's the reason SF has 6sec cooldown, while SB has 15sec cooldown.
Would you rather have your SB cooldown halved and be made WIS-based?


That your cornered into using 2 of your available 3 class splits if you want to have a workable Stunning Blow DC. This isn't about making one particular build more powerful. It is about giving the game more diversity...

The gear, the past lives, completionist, epic completionist. You also put 6 points into Kensai DC Boost.

Please go play the build before you act like you know what your talking about.

You also told me ingame that I needed healing amp on my Bladeforged so...

Being cornered into 2 classes out of the 3 available isn't a Tactics feat problem, it's monster DC/Saves inflation problem.
Asking for Cleave stuns will just make already powerful toons enter god-mode, while making new players feel more useless. You very well know that every ability based on DC that requires AP/past lives/gear/multiclass investments will only work in favor of veterans.

This is the reason shiradi casters are so popular among new players, while veterans still opt for DC casting.
I'm not saying I like that 1st lifers are just as capable in EEs using shiradi as a multi-TR caster using Draconic or Magister, but I can see the reason turbine allows it.

You say you put 6AP into Kensei tactics, but you start with 18 STR and 8 WIS and all your level-up points go into STR.
I have to start with 16 STR and 16 WIS and spread my level-up points into STR and WIS.
You tell me who invests more... The way I see it, fighters trade nothing at all to improve their tactics DC and, yet, I don't feel the need to complain about it.

Yes, I told you to get more hamp when I was on my FvS and had to heal you. I do so on everyone I detect having less than 1.0 healing mod. Think of it as a reflex comment, I just can't help it not doing so :P

[HatsuharuZ]

It would help if the cooldowns of some of the tactical feats were lowered. It would help even more if fighters and barbarians were given enhancements that would lower those cooldowns even more. 3 to 5 seconds at least.

[fool101]

I would like to see more tactical options as well. However, I would prefer if they left SF/SB alone. I'd hate to see them get AC-ified or something similar to "make things balanced". (ex. chance to stun varies based on mob level or CR).

But please do add other options. In particular, work with trip so that a) you don't need to waste a feat to take improved trip; and b) if your trip roll beats the mobs save by 10, they should be helpless (or find some other way to make a mob helpless than SF/SB). But if tactics do get a boost, make it very difficult to get meaningful DCs in multiple tactical abilities, you know to promote diversity in builds.

[pgm152]

When I created my sword-and-shield warrior I wanted to use tactics to further my play so I invested as much as I could in tripping. I took the improved trip feat, spent as many points in raising the DC of it as I could through destiny and enhancements, and also located a +10 to tripping DC item to swap into place. In the end it was mostly for nothing.

The first thing I noticed was how many creatures were flat out immune to the effect. I expected bosses to be immune to the effect, and floating creatures, but I hadn't counted on so many others as well. Everything with more than 2 legs is almost immune (but not completely) but a surprising number of 2 legged creatures are flagged as immune too. Earth elementals? Maybe, I suppose they could be rooted to the ground or something. Vine horrors? No way these should be immune as they walk on two legs and have evasion; if they are spry enough to jump out of the way they should be trippable.

My biggest surprise though wasn't the number of completely immune creatures there was, it was just how pointless tripping them turned out to be. They simply stand right back up a second later (or slide across the ground away from me and stand up at the end of their slide like archers are prone to doing). I might interrupt a spell caster for a single spell but that's about it.

In the interest of fairness I can state one instance where tripping was so effective it was practically overpowered; when used in conjunction with a strength debuffing weapon against the heavy armor clerics in one of the Dreaming Dark quests (where you keep the captain alive on a ship against waves of enemies). The strength debuffing reduced the balance saves on the clerics to the point they couldn't get back up most of the time.

The lack of eligible targets to use it on, their ability to resist it, combined with little impact when it actually does work makes me believe it wasn't worth the investment.

[Thrudh]

I totally disagree with you here. I just think that Turbine probably does not have the resources to really make an overhaul; hence, this falls under the category of do not make a change at this time.. Trip for e.g. should be overhauled because it does not have the same impact that it does in PNP, Sunder the same thing. There is no overrun or bull rush or Grapple in DDO. There are really very few tactics of any kind in DDO. The ones actually in game are flawed like stunning blow has too long of a cooldown or trip is not very powerful like it is in PNP.

I detest what you call a tactic. Adrenaline knockdown and lay waste are not tactics because the monsters do not have a save or way of preventing these effects and the same goes for ear smash. These are not tactics in my opinion because a tactic in D&D means that a monster has a way of preventing it. In D&D there are tactic builds and certain mobs where employing specific tactics make sense - these abilities like adrenaline knockdown, ear smash, etc. are auto success and hence not tactics. I would like the monsters to have saves for these based on any criteria the devs think are sufficient. The dev time it would take to make real tactics is problematic.

Trip is pretty useful. A tripped mob is not attacking back... Improved Trip means it's not getting up for a while and you can safely ignore it for a bit. It's not helpless though, so it still takes a while to kill it. It would be nice if tripped mobs were also helpless.

Lay Waste does have a save... there's a DC involved with it... Another reason why it should last longer, and have a shorter cooldown

They should NOT change Adrenaline knockdown... I love that it has no save... That is balanced because it has limited uses.

[SirValentine]

The difference in killing power between a new player or someone playing a fun themed or pure build and a player using tactics and a well engineered multi-classed melee builds is already around 8x.


I have no issue with inexperienced players or deliberately self-gimped builds being lots less effective.

But there's no good rationale for a well-engineered multi-class to be 8x as effective as a well-engineered pure build.

Devs, can we buff the weak and nerf the strong (BOTH!) to lower that difference to maybe 50% instead of 700%?

[Thrudh]

When I created my sword-and-shield warrior I wanted to use tactics to further my play so I invested as much as I could in tripping. I took the improved trip feat, spent as many points in raising the DC of it as I could through destiny and enhancements, and also located a +10 to tripping DC item to swap into place. In the end it was mostly for nothing.

The first thing I noticed was how many creatures were flat out immune to the effect. I expected bosses to be immune to the effect, and floating creatures, but I hadn't counted on so many others as well. Everything with more than 2 legs is almost immune (but not completely) but a surprising number of 2 legged creatures are flagged as immune too. Earth elementals? Maybe, I suppose they could be rooted to the ground or something. Vine horrors? No way these should be immune as they walk on two legs and have evasion; if they are spry enough to jump out of the way they should be trippable.

My biggest surprise though wasn't the number of completely immune creatures there was, it was just how pointless tripping them turned out to be. They simply stand right back up a second later (or slide across the ground away from me and stand up at the end of their slide like archers are prone to doing). I might interrupt a spell caster for a single spell but that's about it.

In the interest of fairness I can state one instance where tripping was so effective it was practically overpowered; when used in conjunction with a strength debuffing weapon against the heavy armor clerics in one of the Dreaming Dark quests (where you keep the captain alive on a ship against waves of enemies). The strength debuffing reduced the balance saves on the clerics to the point they couldn't get back up most of the time.

The lack of eligible targets to use it on, their ability to resist it, combined with little impact when it actually does work makes me believe it wasn't worth the investment.

Weird, my one guy that I invested heavily into trip (Improved Trip, etc) gets a lot of benefit from trip... Improved Trip keeps them down a pretty long time, I thought (Or is that just a save thing?)

[Takllin]

You say you put 6AP into Kensei tactics, but you start with 18 STR and 8 WIS and all your level-up points go into STR.
I have to start with 16 STR and 16 WIS and spread my level-up points into STR and WIS.
You tell me who invests more... The way I see it, fighters trade nothing at all to improve their tactics DC and, yet, I don't feel the need to complain about it.


That is a trade off though. Because if I want to hit that elusive 79 Stunning Blow DC, I need to sacrifice my other stats so that I can start with an 18 STR. The amount of investment needed to get a workable stunning blow DC in EEs is absurd, and if anyone thinks it isn't, your either delusional or have never tried playing a build with SB in EEs. All the gear/PLs/enhancements/EDs/Twists/Buffs that you need is mindboggling. I don't need even half of that on my monk wraps build with Stunning Fist.

[goodspeed]

Give stunning blow the same cooldown as stunning fist and id be more then happy. It's real easy to get that dc up there for ee. Especially if your mix and matching 2 handed and jacking str. (also I like horc or h/elf better for whichever build... probably the ladder for the extra amps and spores.)

Look past the cookie to find the all buttons.

[JOTMON]

I have no issue with inexperienced players or deliberately self-gimped builds being lots less effective.

But there's no good rationale for a well-engineered multi-class to be 8x as effective as a well-engineered pure build.



While I kind of agree with the first part of your post...
I agree buff the weak .. but nerfs should only apply to the specific issues that potentially give undesired OP effects.



Devs, can we buff the weak and nerf the strong (BOTH!) to lower that difference to maybe 50% instead of 700%?

This makes no sense...

None of this 50%/700% bs...

A well-engineered multi-class should be equally as effective as a well-engineered pure build.
only difference should be the situational applications.

[SirValentine]

This makes no sense...

None of this 50%/700% bs...


So please explain to me how you exaxtly measure and exactly balance various different builds to be exactly equal?

I'm not saying don't try to balance! But you just got to eyeball it to ball-park range. "Slightly more powerful" doesn't bother me; "vastly more powerful" does.

[Nédime]

(...)
I don't have enough experience with fighter's to comment on their power levels
(...)

So why do you persist commenting on fighter's power levels




(...)
I first started playing DDO a year ago ish and after the enhancement pass
(...)

English is only my third language. Can anybody tell me how we call someone who plays this game for only one year and then thinks he knows better than everyone (including peeps who play since 2006, that have earned their reputation post by post and whose builds are all 5 stars ?)

[Powskier]

a simple solution may be ,some Free Shield Blocks ,without hitting the shift button.Fighters constantly position themselves in battle for such defense.Some pre-req like one free block a round + one each 4-5 ftr lvls?

[Teh_Troll]

I'm not saying don't try to balance! But you just got to eyeball it to ball-park range. "Slightly more powerful" doesn't bother me; "vastly more powerful" does.

This.

Remember when monk-splashed only gave evasion and some Wisdom AC?

[rest]

I totally disagree with you here. I just think that Turbine probably does not have the resources to really make an overhaul; hence, this falls under the category of do not make a change at this time.. Trip for e.g. should be overhauled because it does not have the same impact that it does in PNP, Sunder the same thing. There is no overrun or bull rush or Grapple in DDO. There are really very few tactics of any kind in DDO. The ones actually in game are flawed like stunning blow has too long of a cooldown or trip is not very powerful like it is in PNP.

I detest what you call a tactic. Adrenaline knockdown and lay waste are not tactics because the monsters do not have a save or way of preventing these effects and the same goes for ear smash. These are not tactics in my opinion because a tactic in D&D means that a monster has a way of preventing it. In D&D there are tactic builds and certain mobs where employing specific tactics make sense - these abilities like adrenaline knockdown, ear smash, etc. are auto success and hence not tactics. I would like the monsters to have saves for these based on any criteria the devs think are sufficient. The dev time it would take to make real tactics is problematic.

Did they merge the servers when I wasn't looking?

[Seikojin]

Thing is the proc chance works correctly.
But best example i can give on a direct nerf would be if nerve venom worked just as lanter ring works.
Imagine, 1 proc per spell, not seperate procs for element damage/random effect/stun for every missile in casts.

When I was looking at the shiradi description it seemed like it should be 1 time per cast, not 1 time per damage, however it does literally say when a spell damages. Which caqn be very often if you are throwing dots, mm, firewall, etc.

The big difference between ranged and spells is base damage. A ranged attack has a lot less dice of damage on the table when compared to a spell.

They might as well allow shiradi to proc on melee hits. :D

Honestly, melee would need a lot more tactical options and buffs if they wanted to compete with shiradi (not gonna say casters or ranged, because it is shiradi which is op (6 procs of stuff is a lot per damage)).

I think the following abilities in the form of feats may be able to help a lot close the tactical gap:
Bullrush - Autogrant with classes in martial sphere at lvl 3. - 6 or 12 second cooldown;+1[w], push opponent back 5 feet, or interrupt their attack chain on their failed save (dc = 10+lvl+str mod?). Instead of making opposed checks, something basic like DC should scale better across playstyles.
Charge - Autogrant with melee sphere spheres at lvl 3. -6 or 12 second cooldown; +1[W]/5 class levels, rush to the target, attempting a trip check (DC= 10+lvl+str mod)
Overrun - Autogrant with melee spheres at lvl 6. 6 or 12 second cooldown; +2[W], charge through your opponents, plowing through them to freedom.
Riposte - Autogrant Melee spheres at lvl 6. 6 or 12 second cooldown, Deflect your opponents melee attack back at them, dealing their damage +your weapons damage to them. DC = 10+lvl+str mod
Parry - Autogrant Melee spheres at lvl 3. 6 or 12 second cooldown. Deflect your opponents attack, negating melee damage from that target for 1 second. DC = 10+lvl+str mod
Disarm - Autogrant to melee sphere at lvl 12. 6 or 12 second cooldown. Make a check against your opponent to reduce their damage until death (you took their weapon away). Since the enemies don't really have weapons, it should be a flat debuff. Like a 20% reduction. When activated, the player makes a str check of their character level+str mod+weapon mod versus enemies CR+10+str mod (maybe have to tweak this based on results).
Grapple - Autogrant to melee spheres at lvl 6. 6 or 12 second cooldown. Attempt to grapple your opponent; pinning them to the ground and rendering them helpless. DC = 10+lvl+str mod. While the opponent is locked in a grapple, you do half damage with melee attacks and cannot use other combat tacticals. Time in grapple would be important.

Changes to current combat tacticals that could use love
trip - I think the dc for this should include the characters level.
improved trip - Again, add character level.
sunder - add character lvl to the dc and reduce the enemies fort by 4
improved sunder - add character level and change the ac reduction to 5+how much they failed the dc by, and reduce fort in the same manner (10+fail difference).
Shield bash - I think this is fine.
improved shield bash - I think this is fine. Maybe add some hate generation?
sap - Hrm, no save stun? Sure, this can be left alone. :) I guess it should be autogranted to martial spheres at lvl 3.

[Teh_Troll]

Did they merge the servers when I wasn't looking?

No, but things have gotten more hardcore.

[kgoodson3]

So why do you persist commenting on fighter's power levels




English is only my third language. Can anybody tell me how we call someone who plays this game for only one year and then thinks he knows better than everyone (including peeps who play since 2006, that have earned their reputation post by post and whose builds are all 5 stars ?)

Tilomere may be posting walls of text, but he is not incorrect in his assessments. It is very routine in practice to keep mobs on their butts with what he is proposing.

It is however, a bit of a glass cannon in many respects.

[Mandyb]

Please fix dodge, at 175% dodge melee's should not be getting hit, isn't that the whole meaning of the word dodge?

[Feithlin]

A wall of text trying to explain how SF DC improves... It goes without saying that to do all you describe requires effort. The same effort that fighters use to improve their SB DC.
Monks and fighters use the same Stun DC boosting items. The difference is that while fighters get their DC from STR that also happens to be their DPS score, monks have to balance between STR and WIS. That's the reason SF has 6sec cooldown, while SB has 15sec cooldown.
Would you rather have your SB cooldown halved and be made WIS-based?


Except that monk add half levels to DC, which is +14 at 28, equivalent to 28 attribute points. So your argument is pretty pointless...

[Qhualor]

Give stunning blow the same cooldown as stunning fist and id be more then happy. It's real easy to get that dc up there for ee. Especially if your mix and matching 2 handed and jacking str.

IMO, I think this is the only fix needed for stunning.

To me, I've always considered regular trip without the investment to be a low level tactic. By mid levels with max strength it seems to work once in awhile and mainly casters. Other people always disagree with this and say they have no problems, but I'm not experiencing the same thing. IT is a noticeable difference, but seems to work some of the time and not consistently like stuns can land most of the time.

Sunder upgraded with fort debuff was a good idea to make it more useful, but that was when we really didn't have any other fort debuffs. Now we have lots of ways to reduce fort.

I would like to see tactics revisited. Some need improvement and would like to see more tactic options like Bull Rush and Overrun. The game has changed since the enhancement pass, increased levels, EDs and the rise of multi classing. Options are good. Improvements are good.

[Seikojin]

Please fix dodge, at 175% dodge melee's should not be getting hit, isn't that the whole meaning of the word dodge?

SS or it didn't happen.

[Tilomere]

Because if I want to hit that elusive 79 Stunning Blow DC, I need to sacrifice my other stats so that I can start with an 18 STR. The amount of investment needed to get a workable stunning blow DC in EEs is absurd.

You are limiting your character to heroic level CC abilities in epic elite content and finding it a large sacrifice to make it work perfectly. How is this surprising in any way? Why does it have to work perfectly in the first place?

Also my math on druid was wrong, its .43 stuns/sec, and a cetus build could probably be around .33, not that that means anything to most people.

[Takllin]

You are limiting your character to heroic level CC abilities in epic elite content and finding it a large sacrifice to make it work perfectly. How is this surprising in any way? Why does it have to work perfectly in the first place?

Also my math on druid was wrong, its .43 stuns/sec, and a cetus build could probably be around .33, not that that means anything to most people.

It doesn't have to work perfectly. Even if we take Stunning Blow out of the picture, all we have left is Balanced Attacks, which for works everything but THF. That is the only CC that melees get, and it is not nearly as reliable as what casters/AAs have.

Clearly you don't care for math either, as I outlined how long it would take for different types of builds to stun mobs...and melee is incredibly longer than its counterparts.

Go back to your druid exploit build. Have a nice day.

[badbob117]

I would love to see some new tactics/cc/aoe put in for sword n board tanks. They need some perks bigtime. I am all for seeing some bonus feats put in at certain levels for all the classes as well specifically for tactical stuff. Could be a breath of fresh air and give some kinda incentive to actually level certain builds past the usual splashes.

[Nédime]

Tilomere may be posting walls of text, but he is not incorrect in his assessments. It is very routine in practice to keep mobs on their butts with what he is proposing.

It is however, a bit of a glass cannon in many respects.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with walls of text.

There's something odd when people use wrong maths to prove their points and try to make another thing look like the real problem ... (in fact it's called politics)

The real problem is not some kind of melee build being OP, man, come on if you have ever played level 25+ EE quests you know Cetus-like builds are not OP. They are powerful, they can give you much more authonomy than many melee builds but not much more than Pyrene, Juggernaut or even Bairclaw 2.0. (reduced sp).

And even pointing at this build - because poster is its designer (while his request is not centered around his build but for ALL melees) - is kinda ill faith.

[Blackheartox]

Except that monk add half levels to DC, which is +14 at 28, equivalent to 28 attribute points. So your argument is pretty pointless...
^^ This

[Blackheartox]

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with walls of text.

There's something odd when people use wrong maths to prove their points and try to make another thing look like the real problem ... (in fact it's called politics)

The real problem is not some kind of melee build being OP, man, come on if you have ever played level 25+ EE quests you know Cetus-like builds are not OP. They are powerful, they can give you much more authonomy than many melee builds but not much more than Pyrene, Juggernaut or even Bairclaw 2.0. (reduced sp).

And even pointing at this build - because poster is its designer (while his request is not centered around his build but for ALL melees) - is kinda ill faith.

Another fact i want to add, whatever you do as for example melle druid exploit gibersih doesnt compete realisticaly to any ranged build in gameplay.
For example shuriken builds, they are perma cc-ers while being "ranged". A druid exploiter build would need to melle and cannot effectively do ee content as its a glass cannon build that will be killed in 2-3 hits and with lower fortification that it has even earlier in high end content.
Cetus as build is powerful, mix of defense that keeps high offense to keep blitz runing.
But compare that to shiradi or monkchery or shuridery that can basicaly press 3-4 buttons while being highely effective its a fact that melle dont have any love currently in ee endgame content.
Mobs hitting for to much, need to have perma displace clickies while effectively killing and playing a destiny that is rly not good for health on longer runs /try to play blitz for more then 10 hours and youl start to twitch and show all kinds of ptsp reactions.

The more i think about it i dont think issue is that much with 2 weapon styles that can be carried by various edestiny abilities for some kind cc but more with 2 handed style that has only stuning blow that requires ring slots /or ring belt ring cloack / to work at all

[Cetus]

Alright, here's the problem with your maths, the comments will be in red:




--------------------------

I have a shiradi sorc, that rotating chain and normal missiles gets 8 chances per second to stun at 7% chance each for 56% chance to no-save stun a mostly random target each second.

With quicken, a sorc can easy cast magic missile + force missile in one second at a specific mob of interest, which is 9 (5 for mm and 4 for fm, right?) procs, each having a 7% chance to proc nerve venom. That's a 63% chance to stun a target of interest at will, per second. Your target will only be random if you cast chain missile at a group of mobs, in which case you have a no-save MASS stun affect.

How this scenario compares to a melee: Stunning blow, 1 chance with at most a 5% fail rate every 15 seconds if yu have a perfect DC - DC requires item slot: Combat mastery, Item slot #2: Stunning +10, LD action points in tactics if in LD, legendary tactics twsited if not in LD, stunning blow feat itself, three fighter past lives, significant charisma investment via starting stats, charisma +10 gear in my case, Charisma +2 slot in my case, completionist feat in my case, 4-6 action points in kensei, 3 action points for bladeforged tactics, more action points for fearsome presence, epic feat for tactician (potentially). After all of this, a significant subset of your enemies are either immune to it or will still be saving on rolls higher than a 1 (yes I'm looking at giants and orc priests from stormhorns)

The salient aspect of TACTICS is CONTROL.

Stunning blow is the only DC based tactic that a weapon wielding melee can use at will in order to make an enemy helpless. It has a 15 second cooldown, many mobs are immune to it, has an auto 5% fail rate even if you incorporate the massive investment I detailed above, and STILL doesn't auto-land on some higher end EE mobs.

With nerve venom, you can control exactly which mob you want to stun by casting cheap magic missile, force missile, magic missile sla if you splash wizzy, and even free magic missile past life - with each missile having a 7% stun rate. Lets not even mention the massive damage you'll do with that rotation while landing the stun on the mob


I have to invest to get this by playing in Shiradi, which isn't much of an investment I'll be honest, We agree here, it isn't even a fraction of the investment I just outlined above for stunning blow - all you need is to just be in the destinybut now does have the drawback of raid and EE adrenaline procs Huh?. Nerve venom only works on targets that can be poisoned, and most of the stuns will be proccing on targets other than your primary target. What nonsense is this, you can alternate magic missile, force missile, and free magic missile at a PARTICULAR TARGET OF CHOICE, only time you get randomness is if you cast chain missile. Control is the main point here, just don't cast chain missile if I'm trying to stun a shadaver, force missile + magic missile him instead
--------------------------

I've played an AA, and pin and whistler twists provide 100% CC every 15 seconds when used well Not to mention that you can catch mutliple targets with IPS, and these abilities require none of the investment I outlined above for stunning blow in terms of gear, charisma mod, ap's, feats, destiny points, etc. They also aren't limited by all the immunities that stunning blow is. And there's no randomness factor, you can invoke these at will - again, CONTROL is immensely powerful when tactics are concerned. One is a helpless stun, the other is a breakable dance CC It is also helpless. Pin a 6.7% stun/second This percentage is meaningless, what the hell is 6.7% in practical gameplay? Control, no save, hits every mob = these are the important parts, not some 6.7% number - this number means nothing in practical gameplay, and Whistler is a 6.7% dance/second. Both require twists for high-dps builds Yea, I'll gladly twist in a melee attack that I can CONTROL, has no save at all, and affects virtually all targets - I'll drop all my stunning blow investments in a heartbeat, or a sacrifice of dps to play in Shiradi. Pin works on any non-boss that can be knocked down.

--------------------------

I have a TWF triple strength classed melee druid, which attacks around 5 times a second which gives a random stun every four seconds from no-save Balanced Attacks Yea, and each attack can only proc it ONCE, unlike casting one magic missile which can proc it on every individual missile, or a ranger throwing many shot and 10K stars. That means that each attack has only a 5% chance to proc it, and you have zero control over it, ....AND this ability completely excludes THF. Again, nerve venom, otto's whistler, and pin win with flying colors because of CONTROL , which works on everything that can be knocked down. This costs a twist, like whistler or pin and is a 25% stun/second Oh really? Well if you're going to use math, factor in your 5% chance to role a 1 for each attack, do you have 100% offhand strike? Factor in grazes as well, you definitely will see grazes in EE stuff. This costs a shapeshifted druid which automatically uses TWF only a twist, but costs everyone else the use of superior THF mechanics Yes, I agree that THF mechanics are better - and since its only limited to tWF you are in fact making my point that getting good tactics for melees is a painwhich work better with cleave, groups of mobs, and double strike. Cleave effects add even more, but lets ignore that for now.

The druid in LD also has Anvil of Thunder, which has roughly a 60% chance of stunning every 12 seconds anything that you crit (.05 stuns/second). I already mentioned this, but it requires a certain weapon type and can't be controlled. That 60% figure only seems to apply in your particular druid case, you need to generalize this number for melees in general if you are to make this point, this thread isn't about just druid melees This costs a druid all die steps and LD destiny, since druids do not get die steps with the weapons listed for Anvil of Thunder, but would cost others nothing. This is a 5% stun/second And this 5% is good versus no fail nerve venom, otto's whistler, and pin?.

The druid also has an 80% chance of stunning every 15 seconds with stunning blow 80% chance? Where'd you get this number? Against what mobs? Is it immune to stun? See, your numbers need context - you can't just throw numbers around and yell "I GOT MATH" . This costs a feat. This works on living non-boss stun-able mobs Exactly, this is a handicap - look at how much undead is out there, stop with the 80% lie, and is mostly good for enemy casters, rogues and archers (5.3% stuns/second) Where'd you get 5.3% stuns/sec? Did you include all the practical dynamics of combat, monster limitations such as immunities and higher than your DC saves, etc?. There are good stunning items, so using them aren't really a cost You're just going to hand wave over the investment that TWO inventory slots is worth? . Triple strength classing gives really powerful characters, so that isn't a cost either.
]

Many comments in red


As far as my stunning blow investment is concerned, here it is:

80 Strength

15 Strength from Divine Might = 8 modifiers = 12 Damage

(Note: Having high strength is absolutely an investment. Many people keep making the argument that it isn't because it already adds to DPS. Well, try this comparison:

Ranger splash: 3 free feats in the form of rapid shot and bow strength - Greater Weapon Spec, Greater Two handed Fighting, and something else - maybe pally past life, or power critical. With greater two handed fighting and two other DPS feats, the DPS gained from divine might is even at best, 10% extra glancing blow damage and a whole entire new one in an attack sequence + extra DPS from favored enemy and two feats is a nice trade off - also eliminates the need to invest in charisma, potentially enables more DPS gear.

I didn't even touch enhancements - ranger splash gives me access to an additional 1d6 sneak attack from deepwood, arrow imbue from arcane archer (since I many shot), a damage boost from deepwood (saves me LD points), and even sprint boost from tempest if I choose - very powerful to have. DPS is not the central thing here - its TACTICS, and I invested in the pally splash with primarily tactics in mind. (Yes, pally also gives saves - but the DPS vs. tactics value of this investment is what I'm dealing with here - so don't play this card).

10 Stunning Blow Ring - An entire gear slot devoted JUST to help land my stuns

Combat Mastery 5 Ring - Another gear slot devoted to stunning (the seeker is easily replaceable)

Stunning Blow costs a feat itself

LD points in legendary tactics (these aren't even part of the point requisite to get to the next tier, so can be entirely avoided)

4 AP in kensei, 5 AP in bladeforged, 4 AP in kensei for extra strength (again with the strength, these points can be respent on other DPS boosting abilities that do more damage than 2 strength - like another SA ninja spy ability which only costs 2 points instead of 4, no mercy, a good death, whatever).

Three fighter past lives

Completionist feat (I gain 2 DC from this because of the charisma and strength bonuses)

This gives me a 76 Stunning blow DC - which isn't 95% on quite a few things.

Compare this **investment** to nerve venom or pin.

Other things like combat mastery 6, primal scream, store pot, owlbear cookie, whatever can get this higher above 80 - but these aren't practically sustainable.

[BoBoDaClown]

Melee getting more tactical options would be good, but not simply replicating what casters can do, ie mass helpless. This would further reduce the desire for different builds in your group, and would invalidate my long term main, a cc healing bard completely. The reason why groups like her in party is because she brings is cc and heals.

Give melee better dps
Give melee better defense
Give them an array of tactical options, but not an aoe stun

The biggest issue atm is how dps from range is so obviously the way to go, hard choices\sacrifices for those builds arent being made. They often have good dps, survivability, utility, cc and kiting.

[Nédime]

Alright, here's the problem with your maths, the comments will be in red: (...)

Many comments in red



+1 sir.
Ultimate argument of logic.

[Blackheartox]

+1 sir.
Ultimate argument of logic.

Yep couldnt had said it better

[Nédime]

Give melee better dps
Give melee better defense
Give them an array of tactical options, but not an aoe stun



I agree devs have to be careful what they give and what can be linked to what (ex. the fist of light+magical backlash combo).

But what we'd like them to understand is that people want to have options. Not only OP options, not only easy buttons (which, I understand some players want/need on 1 or more of their toons - I criticized shiradi casters but I've tried one (first to farm so EE items, secondly to see by myself how OP some options were). I think what is DDO's much loveable side is the customization in your character build, playstyle and evolution. "forcing" or "encouraging" end-gamer to only be able to pick-up between (let's be generous) 7-8 archetypes is the opposite of what the class, multiclassing, enhancement trees, epic destinies and twist of fate complex system leads us to think.

I personnally would love to be able to perform some mobs' attacks : the trolls & ogres charge (is this what you call the bull run) and the hobgobelin slayer '3 hits move' which i find awsum.

[NaturalHazard]

Alright, here's the problem with your maths, the comments will be in red:




Many comments in red


As far as my stunning blow investment is concerned, here it is:

80 Strength

15 Strength from Divine Might = 8 modifiers = 12 Damage

(Note: Having high strength is absolutely an investment. Many people keep making the argument that it isn't because it already adds to DPS. Well, try this comparison:

Ranger splash: 3 free feats in the form of rapid shot and bow strength - Greater Weapon Spec, Greater Two handed Fighting, and something else - maybe pally past life, or power critical. With greater two handed fighting and two other DPS feats, the DPS gained from divine might is even at best, 10% extra glancing blow damage and a whole entire new one in an attack sequence + extra DPS from favored enemy and two feats is a nice trade off - also eliminates the need to invest in charisma, potentially enables more DPS gear.

I didn't even touch enhancements - ranger splash gives me access to an additional 1d6 sneak attack from deepwood, arrow imbue from arcane archer (since I many shot), a damage boost from deepwood (saves me LD points), and even sprint boost from tempest if I choose - very powerful to have. DPS is not the central thing here - its TACTICS, and I invested in the pally splash with primarily tactics in mind. (Yes, pally also gives saves - but the DPS vs. tactics value of this investment is what I'm dealing with here - so don't play this card).

10 Stunning Blow Ring - An entire gear slot devoted JUST to help land my stuns

Combat Mastery 5 Ring - Another gear slot devoted to stunning (the seeker is easily replaceable)

Stunning Blow costs a feat itself

LD points in legendary tactics (these aren't even part of the point requisite to get to the next tier, so can be entirely avoided)

4 AP in kensei, 5 AP in bladeforged, 4 AP in kensei for extra strength (again with the strength, these points can be respent on other DPS boosting abilities that do more damage than 2 strength - like another SA ninja spy ability which only costs 2 points instead of 4, no mercy, a good death, whatever).

Three fighter past lives

Completionist feat (I gain 2 DC from this because of the charisma and strength bonuses)

This gives me a 76 Stunning blow DC - which isn't 95% on quite a few things.

Compare this **investment** to nerve venom or pin.

Other things like combat mastery 6, primal scream, store pot, owlbear cookie, whatever can get this higher above 80 - but these aren't practically sustainable.

Are you getting paid for your time?

also where is your yugo pot? :D.

[maddmatt70]

Did they merge the servers when I wasn't looking?

Well I do not play currently. I suppose I should cancel my sub - I just have not gotten to it yet. I chimed in here although I rarely post anymore even.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Insane investment?!?!
You probably have different definition for investment than me, cause an ability that improves with STR on a melee build hardly needs any investment, you were going to be raising STR as high as possible anyway.

Try getting that 79 stun DC that Cetus build has on a monk and then we can talk about investment cost.

Get serious people, Cleave Stunning blow never gonna happen, we don't need it, it'll be absurdly OP and it'll make the difference between veterans and new players even larger.

Yes, insane amounts on investment.
On my 14Ranger/4Pali/2Fighter split I had to invest in Str, and Cha to boost my stunning blow DC.
Human was the only race I could choose for my build, so no bonus from WF Tactics...
Gear wise I had to get a +10 stunning Drow Khopesh, and a +5 Combat Mastery Drow Khopesh.
(I had no other options, since I would not have enough gear slots to slot everything I would need.)
+10 Cha item, and +10 Str item, +2 augment for both.(Remember weapons have no slots in them.)
3 Fighter Past lives.
Completionist
AP spent in the Kensai tree
Extra AP spent in the Human tree for action surge Str.
ED points spent on tactics.
Tactition epic feat
And a few other things I'm forgetting at the moment.

All that to get a stunning Blow DC that was still 10 points below what would be actually usable.

I think an AOE stun ability could work out alright is you put some thought into it.
Something like you get full DC on the first mob you high, and your DC drops by 1 or 2 with each mob you hit.
So you cleave 6 mobs and stun 2-3 on average.(This is just off the top of my head. so would need more thought in it.)

[TheLegendOfAra]

I'd also like to point out that I believe people are getting too caught up on the AOE stun idea from cetus' OP.
That was just an example of a possible tactics idea. He also gave a few other examples.

Even if we don't need or ever get a AOE Stun ability, melee tactics need an overhaul. We need more options and variety.

[Powskier]

heavy armor and shields should block more hits alltogether.Melee is sacraficing evasion for heavy/med wears(at moment they are uselessw A/C setup). The enhancement for shield stoppin damage is step in right direction.I'd like to see auto shield blocks; certain ammnt depends on lvl pts put into ect.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Melee tactics need a boost, no doubt about it. Giving melees a way to reliably land tactics would result in the vast majority of people not feeling forced to bring ranged characters into difficult endgame content, in my mind.

And yes, they need to be able to work off a variety of stats at the moment (dex, con, etc). Since some of those stats can't hit the same levels that str can, that means some further adjusting would be needed.

[Tilomere]

I use stuns/second to keep track of how many stuns a build will normally put out. A high helpless dps build will kill a stunned target in generally a second, so such a build with 1 stun/second has 2 second kills. One second to get the stun, and a second second to kill the target. Sometimes I use %. 50% = 0.5 stuns/second. Sorry for any confusion.

A Shiradi Sorc MM-FM combo cannot be quickened or you will go oom. It takes 2.25 seconds for the cooldown on FM, so the combo is 9 missiles in 2.25 seconds, or a usable targeted stun rate of 63%/2.25 = .28 stuns/second, or four seconds of casting per stun. On top of this, these are magic missiles hitting, not a blitzed character in LD. Due to mana costs, the combo I universally use is MM/CM every 2 seconds. Shiradi random mob procs now include giving adrenaline buffs to mobs to increase the mobs next attack. The cost of Shiradi CC is Draconic DPS or Magistar DCs for instakills.

Balanced Attacks really isn't any different mechanically than Nerve Venom missiles. The stun/sec rate is roughly the same. You use auto attacks and cleaves instead of MM-CM. Balanced Attacks works on undead and elementals though. The cost of Balanced Attacks CC is THF dps.

I am wrong. Pin and Whistler both cause helplessness. The Whistler dance is different than a normal dance. So ranged get 2 helpless attacks that work twice every 15 seconds, for a total of .13 stuns/second. While they may get more with IPS, so can a melee with cleaves. The cost of Pin and Whistler is also dps. It is using the lower dps mechanics of ranged. If every use is a triple hit, it will almost do about as much helpless CC as a TWF melee.

Anvil of Thunder can be twisted and used, and the choice not to means most players have something better going on their melee. The stuns produces may not be 100% consistent, but it is fairly consistent and is on demand. The crit chance isn't much different than a DC check on a Tactic. The cost of Anvil of Thunder CC is weaker base weapon dps with weaker weapon types, but CC costs dps.

Momentum Swing can also be twisted, and is not a stun, but is an AoE CC. This is often twisted, and works with any weapon. Sadly it doesn't work in druid form. The cost of momentum swing as a twist is dps, but in LD isn't very high.

The cost of a no-fail stunning blow is also dps, although you can get an ok stunning blow with much less investment.

TWF on-hit procs provides more CC at the cost of THF superior dps.

The problem I see is that in order to get maximum dps everyone has optimized THF dps, and now they want CC on top of it. No one suggests cutting THF glancing blows in half to compensate. Instead, they point to archery or Shiradi, which have low base dps as a cost, and say it doesn't cost anything special for the CC.


----------------
What's strange, is that while everyone agrees that TWF is the inferior method of combat, everyone seems to gloss over the fact that TWF builds can already be made too strong for group mechanics and want more for their THF builds, which everyone claims is not OP, but it would have to be if it was even better than TWF. I'm basing TWF off my experience with a druid adaption of Cetus dps principles. Druids have some very unique and cool rules though, and the TWF Cetus may not be what I imagine it to be. I think I need to try out some more non-shapeshifted TWF.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

As I was commenting on a different thread, I decided to start this discussion about the state of melee tacticians in this game. With the presence of zero-investment CC abilities such as nerve venom, otto's whistler, pin (see the trend here?) effectively dominating the endgame world by casters and archers, respectively, weapon wielding melee's are at a loss when it comes to CC for the most part.

Stunning fist is arguably the most useful CC abilities because its like stunning blow with a fraction of the cooldown, however given its extreme limitations (wisdom, monk etc) its not practically available to melee's as a whole.

I suggest that new tactics make their way into the melee world, including - helpless trips, much shorter cooldown and longer duration stunning blows, stunning blows that affect elementals, helpless mass trip effects for undead, stunning blow cleaves, helpless guard effects for tank types (DC based on character level + con modifier maybe?), other creative CC effects such as powerful uppercut attacks that sends an enemy flying back a considerable distance, bull rush attacks which allow you to charge an enemy at great speed rendering it helpless, etc...

All of these abilities should have DC's based off your investments, and should not insta-land with no save. This would improve combat dynamics, allow for even more interesting melee build diversity, add the long needed defenses to offensive and defensive melee's alike, and would make true tacticians more of a reality instead of relying on the shiradi casters/archers to cheaply CC entire groups of mobs with no investments.

I'm in for all of this if NONE of those uses STR mod for dc.

TYWM but there is more than enough 12 fighter, 2/4 pally splits running around.

[IronClan]

As I was commenting on a different thread, I decided to start this discussion about the state of melee tacticians in this game. With the presence of zero-investment CC abilities such as nerve venom, otto's whistler, pin (see the trend here?) effectively dominating the endgame world by casters and archers, respectively, weapon wielding melee's are at a loss when it comes to CC for the most part.

Stunning fist is arguably the most useful CC abilities because its like stunning blow with a fraction of the cooldown, however given its extreme limitations (wisdom, monk etc) its not practically available to melee's as a whole.

I suggest that new tactics make their way into the melee world, including - helpless trips, much shorter cooldown and longer duration stunning blows, stunning blows that affect elementals, helpless mass trip effects for undead, stunning blow cleaves, helpless guard effects for tank types (DC based on character level + con modifier maybe?), other creative CC effects such as powerful uppercut attacks that sends an enemy flying back a considerable distance, bull rush attacks which allow you to charge an enemy at great speed rendering it helpless, etc...

All of these abilities should have DC's based off your investments, and should not insta-land with no save. This would improve combat dynamics, allow for even more interesting melee build diversity, add the long needed defenses to offensive and defensive melee's alike, and would make true tacticians more of a reality instead of relying on the shiradi casters/archers to cheaply CC entire groups of mobs with no investments.

/sign.... er Sorry I would like to second all of these ideas and give testament to their veracity.

Tacticals need buffing badly.

Barb's should get a 8 or 10 second CD abundant step like charge/knockdown as a 1st or 2nd Tier enhancement.

Shield using melee's should get a Shield rush...

[TheLegendOfAra]

Balanced Attacks really isn't any different mechanically than Nerve Venom missiles. The stun/sec rate is roughly the same. You use auto attacks and cleaves instead of MM-CM. Balanced Attacks works on undead and elementals though. The cost of Balanced Attacks CC is THF dps.

Anvil of Thunder can be twisted and used, and the choice not to means most players have something better going on their melee. The stuns produces may not be 100% consistent, but it is fairly consistent and is on demand. The crit chance isn't much different than a DC check on a Tactic. The cost of Anvil of Thunder CC is weaker base weapon dps with weaker weapon types, but CC costs dps.

The cost of a no-fail stunning blow is also dps, although you can get an ok stunning blow with much less investment.

The problem I see is that in order to get maximum dps everyone has optimized THF dps, and now they want CC on top of it. No one suggests cutting THF glancing blows in half to compensate. Instead, they point to archery or Shiradi, which have low base dps as a cost, and say it doesn't cost anything special for the CC.

----------------
What's strange, is that while everyone agrees that TWF is the inferior method of combat, everyone seems to gloss over the fact that TWF builds can already be made too strong for group mechanics and want more for their THF builds, which everyone claims is not OP, but it would have to be if it was even better than TWF. I'm basing TWF off my experience with a druid adaption of Cetus dps principles. Druids have some very unique and cool rules though, and the TWF Cetus may not be what I imagine it to be. I think I need to try out some more non-shapeshifted TWF.

Have you tried to use this on an actual TWF build and NOT just some druid abomination? If not you really shouldn't be spreading this idea that TWF has this awesome stunning ability that it doesn't. You also lose even more DPS on a TWF split if you're constantly spamming cleaves. The only time Cleaves give you a boost in DPS is when you're not boosting at all and just have normal hasted attack speed. <- Doesn't happen too very often.

Anvil of Thunder is unreliable. You can't control if it actually stuns mobs or not; You can't make it more reliable. This is a DPS ED ability with a chance of giving some CC. You're effectively using a stunning blow with a DC 5-6 points below ideal. Sure you'll stun something every now and then, but it's not the same as having a Stunning blow that only fails when a mob rolls a 20.

No. Having a stunning Blow in EE's that is not at least 75(*Citation needed) or higher is pointless. Since stunning blow has it's own attack animation you lose DPS if you try to stun a mob and it doesn't work. Not to mention the fact that if you don't have a reliable stunning blow there are better feat choices that will work for you 100% of the time as opposed to "eh, it might work... maybe...".

Firstly, not everyone has optimized for max DPS. Cetus' isn't a Max DPS build. However, in the current state of the game THF does offer more DPS that TWF does. We're not asking for THF specific CC options here. We're asking for more CC options for melee as a whole. Something the game could use. To argue this point is silly.

Secondly, You're wrong about Archers having lower base damage. Archers have always had very high base damage. they just had a very slow rate of attack. This isn't a problem any longer with 10kStars and Manyshot on the same build. The thing is, I can build a max DPS AA right now and still twist in Pin/Otto's for no cost CC that works every time and it doesn't change the way a traditional Monkcher would play. I can't play a max DPS melee build in EE's at all right now. Period. The current state of the game simply does not allow this with BYOH being the prevalent option in most EE runs and EE mobs/casters dishing out insane amounts of DPS. All melee has been relegated to hit and run tactics.

Cleave+GreatCleave+LayWaste+MomentumSwing back out and heal+heal+heal and then start meleeing again.

What do you play in primarily? EE? EH?


I'm in for all of this if NONE of those uses STR mod for dc.
TYWM but there is more than enough 12 fighter, 2/4 pally splits running around.
Why exclude Str at all? It should be included just as Con/Dex should be.
I think it would be in rather poor taste to implement new tactics feats and the turn around and make them all useless to a Fighter.
You know.... The main tacticion class. The idea is inclusion, not exclusion.

I want to see Rangers and Paladins be able to pull off EE viable tactics.
I don't want to see this at the expense of Fighters and Barbs.

[Tilomere]

So the fundamental problem is that when you are facing 4-10 wheloon or stormhorns or other groups of mobs, no amount of TWF CC justifies losing 50% glancing blow damage x the number of mobs, or a 200-500% damage bonus, which of course multiplies with other damage multipliers.

Ok I agree with that. You are absolutely right. There is no amount of CC that could ever be added to TWF to make it comparable to THF, because dps = xp and you can always run easier content or in groups if needed.

So while the math shows you can add as much CC to TWF melee builds in balance with ranged or shiradi, and you can also out damage ranged or shiradi with TWF while blitzed trivially, no one cares, because THF is so much better.

I know you are asking for general melee tactics to add more CC, but why bother? No one will use them, because they will also be released balanced relative to ranged and shiradi, and no one uses the balanced existing ones. How would one even design "general melee tactics." A balanced one would be: Deal half damage permanently while using a two handed weapon, reduce cool down of stunning blow to 6 seconds to match stunning fist.

Seems like a melee balance pass is more important than melee tactics, since TWF/THF itself is more critical to the game than more melee tactics.

[TheLegendOfAra]

So the fundamental problem is that when you are facing 4-10 wheloon or stormhorns or other groups of mobs, no amount of TWF CC justifies losing 50% glancing blow damage x the number of mobs, or a 200-500% damage bonus, which of course multiplies with other damage multipliers.

Ok I agree with that. You are absolutely right. There is no amount of CC that could ever be added to TWF to make it comparable to THF, because dps = xp and you can always run easier content or in groups if needed.

So while the math shows you can add as much CC to TWF melee builds to match ranged or shiradi, and you can also out damage other classes with TWF while blitzed trivially, no one cares, because THF is so much better. Which means that since I know the weaker TWF version of the Cetus build can already be made which is grossly overpowered relative to other players (even though no one cares to except for fun), I'm finding it hard to justify adding tactics that would be available to the THF one, even though it would be ideal for straggler mop up.

I know you are asking for general melee tactics, but why bother? If they were merely in balance to other classes, like the ones already in existence, it's clear no one would use them.

No... there just isn't enough TWF CC currently in the game to justify the loss.
At least none that I have found in my 4 years of playing a TWF Ranger...
Your own build thread confirms this.

Again, prove to me you're out DPSing other builds... I haven't seen it yet.
If I am remembering correctly the current top TWF DPS build would actually be a pure 20 Ranger with the capstone.
That said, I still would probably not play a pure ranger in EE endgame content because the lack of saves and survivability would hurt way to much. As I said, no one is playing max DPS builds right now because they simply hurt to much. We're all just maxing the DPS our current survivable builds can do.

Seriously though, your one bit of proof that you're TWF is just uber DPS is that you lead the kill count in a quest with a Ranger, Cleric, Bard, and Rogue. Reading your build thread of the build you're using there just proved that your build isn't viable in EE, especially soloing EE's. Which makes your whole TWF DPS is soo OP kind of stupid.

Actually, just really stupid.

I want to see new and interesting CC added into the game for melee's in the form of feats, both heroic and Epic.
Out of all the current heroic melee tactics feats there is only 2 worth taking. Stunning Blow and Stunning Fist.
The rest are pointless wastes of space. I want to see them replaced with new and improved feat options.
Maybe instead of just stunning mobs I could get a Cleave that knocks mobs down for 20 seconds(would scale over levels).
Or maybe we could get an improved and actually useful version of Sap.

There's nothing in the game worth taking right now, if we had better options maybe we'd actually take them.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Why exclude Str at all? It should be included just as Con/Dex should be.


You just quoted me on a reason why. It's hard enough to avoid beeing pigeonholed into a Cetus as it is, no need to add more reasons.



I think it would be in rather poor taste to implement new tactics feats and the turn around and make them all useless to a Fighter.
You know.... The main tacticion class. The idea is inclusion, not exclusion.


Quote me on the part where i said it would be useless to fighters.



I want to see Rangers and Paladins be able to pull off EE viable tactics.
I don't want to see this at the expense of Fighters and Barbs.

You just talked about needing to have a no fail tacticals. Turbine is going to push the limits of ee just as they did before (and rightfully so). So how will a sub optimal split (anything that does not have both power surge and divine might) benefit from this boost if it involves str dc?

How would this be usefull to your rangers for example? Let's compare: +2 from rams might vs. +22 from power surge and divine might. Yes a difference of 20. Let me repeat: 20! This is a huge fail in game design by turbine and any additional str mod ability will only make it worse. Give me your best shot and try to find me a build that can make that big of a difference in any other atribute than str.




Also a big NO on AOE CC tacticals in any way, shape or form. If need be, match the cost and usability with eldrich tempest.

[TheLegendOfAra]

You just quoted me on a reason why. It's hard enough to avoid beeing pigeonholed into a Cetus as it is, no need to add more reasons.

Quote me on the part where i said it would be useless to fighters.

You just talked about needing to have a no fail tacticals. Turbine is going to push the limits of ee just as they did before (and rightfully so). So how will a sub optimal split (anything that does not have both power surge and divine might) benefit from this boost if it involves str dc?

How would this be usefull to your rangers for example? Let's compare: +2 from rams might vs. +22 from power surge and divine might. Yes a difference of 20. Let me repeat: 20! This is a huge fail in game design by turbine and any additional str mod ability will only make it worse. Give me your best shot and try to find me a build that can make that big of a difference in any other atribute than str.

It's not that hard. I've avoided it for 5 lives by playing ranger builds and I've been happy. I have about 12 more Ranger builds bouncing around in my head that should all be EE capable and I could and probably will play them all without ever worrying about needed to be pigeonholed into my build choices.

If you can't use Str as one of the modifiers Fighters and Barbs would not be able to benefit from them very much since the classes are based entirely around the idea of maxing out their str.

What I'm saying is that it should involve either a Con, Str, or Dex modifier option for all tactical feats. This way max str builds get to use them, but so do max dex builds, and dwarven max con builds with throw your weight would get a really powerful boost in usefulness.

Actually, my Ranger has Divine might and actually got more out of it than Cetus' BF build did. So it's not a +20 difference.
The difference boiled down to power surge; which I'll never be able to make up, I know. But I can get pretty **** close.
All things being equal, Cetus will only have 6 more strength than me. That's not too terribly much.

[Dalsheel]

Yes, insane amounts on investment.
On my 14Ranger/4Pali/2Fighter split I had to invest in Str(omg, really you had to invest on your DPS score?:confused::confused:), and Cha to boost my stunning blow DC(just be honest, you invested on your saves as well...+15 or so saves ain't easy to come by).
Human was the only race I could choose for my build, so no bonus from WF Tactics...
Gear wise I had to get a +10 stunning Drow Khopesh, and a +5 Combat Mastery Drow Khopesh.(just like everyone else who's using tactics, the game is developed for people using these items, or do you feel entitled to no-fail stunning blow without these:confused::confused:)
(I had no other options, since I would not have enough gear slots to slot everything I would need.)
+10 Cha item, and +10 Str item, +2 augment for both.(Remember weapons have no slots in them.)(+6 to all saves +16 STR truly horrible... unless once again you feel entitled to beating EEs naked... rofl)
3 Fighter Past lives.(You're trying to convice us that you wouldn't do these if we had a stunning cleave?:confused:)
Completionist (You're trying to convice us that you wouldn't do this if we had a stunning cleave?:confused:)
AP spent in the Kensai tree
Extra AP spent in the Human tree for action surge Str. (yes, yes, anything that increases your DPS is obviously something you wouldn't get if not for SB DC)
ED points spent on tactics. (as does everyone using tactics because +6dc for 3 points is just too good to not take)
Tactition epic feat (ok, I agree on this one, there are other things I would love to take over this but I to feel this is needed. This is a saves/DCs inflation problem on the mobs side)
And a few other things I'm forgetting at the moment.



My comments in red

So what exactly is the huge investment you were talking about? Some AP in the kensei tree and the tactitian ED feat? Because everything else you've listed is pretty much a staple on tactics toons and half of what you've listed also happens to be boosting your overall DPS as well so they can't possibly be considered trade-offs for better DCs

PS: It makes me laugh when I see people complaining about "having to invest in STR". I mean, seriously, take a moment and think what you're saying.

[Eth]

Actually, just really stupid.

Hehe, what I don't get is why tilomere is arguing about the state of TWF with the perspective of a build where TWF is completely broken.

Seriously, if you want to argue about TWF don't even start with a build that uses winter wolf form. Sure technically you are a TWF but it has absolutely nothing to do with a 'regular' TWFer.

[TheLegendOfAra]

My comments in red

So what exactly is the huge investment you were talking about? Some AP in the kensei tree and the tactitian ED feat? Because everything else you've listed is pretty much a staple on tactics toons and half of what you've listed also happens to be boosting your overall DPS as well so they can't possibly be considered trade-offs for better DCs

PS: It makes me laugh when I see people complaining about "having to invest in STR". I mean, seriously, take a moment and think what you're saying.

Actually, I would have forgone a pali splash all together if it hadn't been for divine might. Saves actually had nothing to do with that choice.
What I was trying to create was a Ranger build that could stun mobs in EE endgame content, and nothing more. Just to prove it could be done.
I was wrong when I made it, and it is actually impossible to get to the DC needed to have a stunning Blow viable in EE content on a ranger.
At least currently; I hold hope for the future.

Actually, Cetus' and most people who use tactics are using much better weapons that my build could manage. ESOS with a ring slot VS Drow Khopesh. Mornh VS Drow Khopesh. I was forced to use worse weapons for the sake of reaching a SB DC that turns out I couldn't reach anyways.

While I agree these would be obvious gear slots they are still investments.
I'm putting them there to get something out of them. That is what investment means.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm just pointing out these are the things you HAVE TO HAVE in order for stunning blow to work.
Which is silly, because stunning blow isn't that powerful.

I actually would not have spent the AP on Action Surge Str if I wasn't going for stunning blow. Wasted AP that would have been better spent elsewhere. +3 Str isn't that powerful if you're not going for DC's.

This is all a huge investment when you compare it to what a Archer or Shiradi caster has to invest to get nerve venom, pin, and ottos. Nothing...
They literally just have to put points into the ED stuff they would do anyways since they're Shiradi casters/Archers.(Archers may have to use some twists if not in Shiradi so that counts.)

I'm not complaining I have to invest in str...
I'm unsatisfied that the only reliable option of CC as a (nonmonk)Melee is stunning blow and even with a huge investment it's useless on all but 2 classes currently. I'm unhappy that there is no variety in melee tactics any longer, and other than stunning blow/fist none of the melee tactics feats are worth looking at.

You should really, really work on your reading comprehension.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Hehe, what I don't get is why tilomere is arguing about the state of TWF with the perspective of a build where TWF is completely broken.

Seriously, if you want to argue about TWF don't even start with a build that uses winter wolf form. Sure technically you are a TWF but it has absolutely nothing to do with a 'regular' TWFer.

^^ A TWF build that wields a shield in his offhand I believe?
Yeaaaah, makes a ton of sense. :rolleyes:

[NaturalHazard]

Shield using melee's should get a Shield rush...

So a shield rush for a knock down effect and maybe a shield bash with a chance to proc a stun or a stun with a dc attempt?

[Vanhooger]

Tilomare, couple things, havent grouped with you yet since your a stuck up ........
2nd you only do eh and mostly group with people that are bad at the game to get your selfestem so high that you can brag.
Im bored from game lately so i pay attention to lfms alot and troll more then play and you would be a worthy one to troll.
Have you done any achievment at all, beside grouping with gimps in eh and blitzing? As i know nope.

Try to group with a shuriken build with mortal fear and you wont feel so great anymore.

But actual people who are good on our server dont give a single fk to group with you since they finish quests before you charge yout 50 stacks to get blitz prepd.
Your stun chance proc calculation doesnt take in account that you are a druid with low saves that can be easily killed in a proper ee zergin group.

What cetus started with this thread is simple.
I have no idea why you are bringing your ******** braging ideas here.
You are against mechanics that promote non group play yet you brag about you having most kills and your DPSSSSSS and how noone ever can reach your kills? Am i dumb or am i the only one seing irony here. Sigh, sry fellas not all on cannith are dumb.

Ok now back to topic which deserves attention imo.

As melle in ee, we need to engage in close combat, so we take all of that ******** damage and we dont have so many ways to mitigate damage like ranged have.
Include the fact that ranged get no fail cc and can "range" never in need to go into harm.
What cetus is suggesting from my viewpoint is that its unfair how monkchery shiradery /either shuri or wizzys/ have best defense with supreme offense coverd in easy button win wheras you need to work to be effective as melle.
I want to add draconic sorcs to list, a simple mass hold with energy burst 1 shots whatever in ee. Its just 2 buttons and you kill a pack of mobs no matter the quest. Esp now that you can get 150 spp item when your 24.
Currently Effort =/ efficiency in ddo.
To promote more easy buttons for melle is a good start since we are the ones that take those 300 damage hits and we are the ones that get smacked by colors adrenaline proc, not the ranged.
Am i correct sir cetus with my understanding of your original post?
Bdw im all for "fixing" melle, i do play everything tho, from shiradery to archery to sorcery and esosery.
Ee isnt rly hard as melle, but a good shiradi caster or shuriken shiradi or monkcher will outperform a melle and wont need to work nor button mash.
I dont want them nerfed tho, they are fun, but to add something to melle would be a good start

I agree with you that sorc can oneshot any mob on EE, atm I'm a pure drow sroc holding/burst. That is amazing, sure. But as you already know pure sorc has the tradeoff of survivability.
In order to make my hold work well i need to aggro a bunch of mob and hope nobody save, cos in 2 hit I'm dead. Also, save are terrible, no evasion.
That mean I take full damage from any elemental damage...yes, I use fire shield ecc, but it's not enough for actual elemental crazy damage.

Another thing to point out is self healing...it's just cocoon and scoll, and when you get aggro of 5-10 mob It's not easy to stay alive at all.

It's a feat starving class, and I have to use twist for ench dc and dump evo.

I have low hp as well due to drow and d4 sorc.

For my point of view, it's very hard to play at least.

A 15wiz/3fvs/2mnk build, have high rex save plus evasion, high hp as warforged, hold immune, poison immune(traps), one click full hp(quikened with no more sp cost), no save free of sp cc, nearly infinite mana and maximize always on due to no additional cost, joy that is crazy, no save spell and can burst like pure sorc

[Nédime]

I'm in for all of this if NONE of those uses STR mod for dc.

TYWM but there is more than enough 12 fighter, 2/4 pally splits running around.

Strange. I see TONS of casters with 2 paly/2 fvs or 2 paly/2 monk running around. I see tons of monkchers running around. I only SOME fighter/paly splash running around.

Must have something to do with my server and my connection time. /sarcasm_off

So you're suggesting some new charisma-based tactical feats being introduced ? Oh or maybe based on intelligence ? oops seems I'm style on sarcasm mode.

Now seriously, the fact you don't appreciate a build doesn't mean it's a bad build, it's an exploit build, it shouldn't exist, it doesn't deserve some improvements.

Secondly, let's say it again OP's suggestions were for all melees not only paly splashes.

[Blackheartox]

Given the fact that this thread totaly went to different direction, considering that people here brag/complain/hate random builds,
it has totaly been ignored that melles need rework.
All can agree on that?
Current state of melles compared to ranged builds is sub par and that melle players have a harder time in most content.
Thing is, this is a game, and as a game it should provide fun.
As its based on d&d none of us that played pen are used to the state of a game where melles are totaly invalidated.
Ranged in ddo have way to many options for easy fun and simple play while keeping efficiency at a high level.
To be effective as melle you are forced into a solo egoistical destiny with multiple systems of keeping track of boosts atacks which is tiring in a longer playing sesion.
Melles compared to pen have low ammount of tacticals, and tacticals should be provided to melles to have equal ammount of efficiency and fun as ranged builds.

I personaly (when in melle lifes) wouldnt be sad if i had to put 5 more things to click on bar if those 5 things are fun to use with nice shiney graphics and if they make me feel more powerful.

[Vanhooger]

Given the fact that this thread totaly went to different direction, considering that people here brag/complain/hate random builds,
it has totaly been ignored that melles need rework.
All can agree on that?
Current state of melles compared to ranged builds is sub par and that melle players have a harder time in most content.
Thing is, this is a game, and as a game it should provide fun.
As its based on d&d none of us that played pen are used to the state of a game where melles are totaly invalidated.
Ranged in ddo have way to many options for easy fun and simple play while keeping efficiency at a high level.
To be effective as melle you are forced into a solo egoistical destiny with multiple systems of keeping track of boosts atacks which is tiring in a longer playing sesion.
Melles compared to pen have low ammount of tacticals, and tacticals should be provided to melles to have equal ammount of efficiency and fun as ranged builds.

I personaly (when in melle lifes) wouldnt be sad if i had to put 5 more things to click on bar if those 5 things are fun to use with nice shiney graphics and if they make me feel more powerful.

Completely agree. And that's why I don't play any melee ATM

[kazeikan]

I like how Tilomere uses a screenshot of him beating 300 hp terribadies in killcount while blitzing in an heroic elite quest as proof.

Judging from the <400 hp of the cleric, rogue, ranger, and bard, they aren't even lvl 20 capped and not using epic destinies.

Good job blitzing against them. The only thing that proves is epic destinies are powerful.


I reserve any judgement on Cetus' idea but Turbine should learn from it. Think of alternative ways to balance classes rather than nerf with extreme prejudice.

[Tilomere]

I have a solution everyone should like. Let's just have all epic mobs take damage as if they were helpless all the time!

Melee builds benefit the most, especially the really crappy ones that can't use stunning blow. Since sense combat brute/blitz charging works best with melee, and melee enhancement trees have helpless mods as well, this will best benefit melee. But hey. Melee builds should benefit the most. They are definitely the weakest. Melee OP versus weak builds solved. No need to stack strength anymore and spend massive "investment" on stunning blow life after life. All melee builds now instantly produce enough damage for EE. Melee variation restored instantly. Now you can build for and use tactical feats tactically instead of only using a single tactic as a dps boost. Want to play a pure whatever but compete for dps against a triple class build that can use stunning blow. No problem. Stunning blow doesn't add any more damage now, and is a tactically used CC now. Now feel free to add in whatever tactical feats you want, because they are tactical like the name implies and not another dps boost.

Ranged benefit in between melee and casters, as they should, since they already had on demand helplessness which isn't worth anything more than CC now. In fact, now that you no longer need to twist pin and whistler for helpless effects, you add to ranged variation.

The least benefit goes to OP Shiradi Sorcs who twist energy burst and don't have enough destiny points to also twist Sense Weakness, and who don't benefit as much from sense weakness or LD for combat brute, and who already make mobs helpless. However, all casters indirectly benefit since they no longer need to use no-save abilities, since mobs that save will still take nearly full damage after a sense weakness twist. Since mana pools are so much more efficient, no need for the /2fvs splashes. Caster variation restored instantly. Seriously, would anyone feel sorry for Shiradi Sorcs or instakill casters getting the least out of this? Besides, energy burst would be pretty amazing.

HP inflation solved. I see no drawbacks to this.

[Nédime]

I like how Tilomere uses a screenshot of him beating 300 hp terribadies in killcount while blitzing in an heroic elite quest as proof.

Judging from the <400 hp of the cleric, rogue, ranger, and bard, they aren't even lvl 20 capped and not using epic destinies.

Good job blitzing against them.


Lol I just noticed it was a heroic quest too.

OMG now read again the post in which he posted the SS !!!



I played a super high dps build in LD in groups. All my groups ended up disbanding once everyone realized they didn't move fast enough, since I had increased r/w speed, and that the players barely could kill anything because I evaporated everything faster than they could reach it.


In fact you didn't really come here to debate if it's legit to add new tactical feats. You just wanted to show how ubber dps your toon is. And that's a fail.



And they are mostly TR's


No sir they were not TR. A TR KNOWS that something very special happens when you hit 20 which is called ED.
If I'm <20 and group up with a level 20 I know and I hope he'll use LD so I can pike. So I won't disband unless this level 20 says something I disapprove or is a jerk. And I'm surely not going to try and compete with him.

[Nédime]

I have a solution everyone should like. Let's just have all epic mobs take damage as if they were helpless all the time!


What about they just die when they see us ?

HP inflation solved. I see no drawbacks to this.

[Takllin]

My comments in red

So what exactly is the huge investment you were talking about? Some AP in the kensei tree and the tactitian ED feat? Because everything else you've listed is pretty much a staple on tactics toons and half of what you've listed also happens to be boosting your overall DPS as well so they can't possibly be considered trade-offs for better DCs

PS: It makes me laugh when I see people complaining about "having to invest in STR". I mean, seriously, take a moment and think what you're saying.

You really don't understand do you...How many builds can currently achieve a viable EE SB DC? How many can achieve a viable EE Stunning Fist DC. Ill tell you since I don't think you can figure it out, its a handful for SB, its a lot for Stunning Fist.

If you want a EE viable Stunning Blow DC, you are forced into 2 of 3 available classes. You are forced into getting 3 Fighter Past Lives. You are forced into either using a Stunning Dunrobar, Mornh, or a Drow Weapon w/ Stunning +10. You are forced into sustaining short term buffs 24/7. I would love to achieve a viable Stunning Blow DC on other builds, but it just isn't possible. Yes it is a mob saves issue as well, but it still doesn't solve the problem that melees do not have enough tactics.

The investment in STR isn't for DPS, it is so that we can achieve a viable SB DC. Yes, we do achieve more DPS because we are investing in STR, but the amount of which we need to do so is absurd. Get your head out of your behind and smell the roses princess.

[kgoodson3]

It is very painful to play a melee right now in EE. A tactics boost/overhaul would help balance things out against what ranged is capable of now.

[Cetus]

OMG you are thick - again, with this rambling wall of text - more comments in red for crying out loud



I use stuns/second to keep track of how many stuns a build will normally put out You are missing a TON of variables in your maths. I already pointed out that saves, grazes, rolls of 1, offhand attack chance, doublestrike, physically missing with your attack due to practical gameplay, running away while you're low on health even though your stun is off cooldown, etc. You simply CANNOT attach a blanket percentage to this. This is why, having CONTROL over the stun is so important, and is also why your balancing attacks are crappy in comparison to nerve venom, otto's whistler, and pin. A high helpless dps build will kill a stunned target in generally a second What? What about the giants that have 10k+ hitpoints? Those take me longer than a second when they're stunned, and we all know how much damage my split puts out. What about orange named, the ones most worthwhile stunning such as shadavers, night hags in EE deathwyrm, etc. Those take a while to kill even when stunned because they have massive hitpoints. Enough with these arbitrary rates. They're WRONG , so such a build with 1 stun/second has 2 second kills. One second to get the stun, and a second second to kill the target. Sometimes I use %. 50% = 0.5 stuns/second. Sorry for any confusion. Given what I've written, this is absolutely wrong. You again, provide no context or enemy type.

A Shiradi Sorc MM-FM combo cannot be quickened or you will go oom Really? I do it all the time - most people do it all the time, you can get interrupted if you don't quicken your missiles - are you THAT ignorant to say that missiles won't be quickened on a shiradi caster?. It takes 2.25 seconds for the cooldown on FM, so the combo is 9 missiles in 2.25 seconds, or a usable targeted stun rate of 63%/2.25 = .28 stuns/second, or four seconds of casting per stun Again, nullifying your initial premise poisons the rest of your "logic" here. These numbers are simply wrong, not to mention the use of freebee missiles and past life missiles in the rotation - takes less than 2.25 seconds . On top of this, these are magic missiles hitting, not a blitzed character in LD Yes, we know LD does more damage - we're talking about tactics here, when I'm doing damage in LD I'm not using any sort of tactics except the ONE I have available to me instead of a momentum swing or a fists of iron. If I can just proc stuns while using momentum swing it would be amazing, but I don't. However, when you nuke with magic missile, you're getting BOTH tactics AND free damage from the same missiles. See the difference? I'll spell it out: One has simultaneity, the other does not. . Due to mana costs, the combo I universally use is MM/CM every 2 seconds. Shiradi random mob procs now include giving adrenaline buffs to mobs to increase the mobs next attack Really? lol, you're just scrambling for arguments to backup a point that is so lost that I'm not sure you'll be able to recover it. The cost of Shiradi CC is Draconic DPS or Magistar DCs for instakills Did you just say loss of magister is a cost? I'm done here.



I stopped commenting after the magister statement, you clearly need more in-game experience, sorry man.

fwiw, comments in red

[Teh_Troll]

You really don't understand do you...How many builds can currently achieve a viable EE SB DC? How many can achieve a viable EE Stunning Fist DC. Ill tell you since I don't think you can figure it out, its a handful for SB, its a lot for Stunning Fist.



The STR requirement is broken as it require Divine Might to get a DC that works more than 5% of the time in end-game.

Stunning blow should be re-formulated.

Divine Might should be examined for balance issues. As it is now it is far too frontloaded.

[Chai]

The STR requirement is broken as it require Divine Might to get a DC that works more than 5% of the time in end-game.

Stunning blow should be re-formulated.

Divine Might should be examined for balance issues. As it is now it is far too frontloaded.

Divine might is fine. There are so many ways to get buffed str that its not that big of an issue.

The issue has been the cooldown of SB not being equal to SF. This has been brought up periodically for years now and no adjustment has ever been made.

[Nodoze]

...
So you're suggesting some new charisma-based tactical feats being introduced ? Oh or maybe based on intelligence ? oops seems I'm style on sarcasm mode.
...Actually if they add Dex & Con options they should also add Charisma options for PDK & maybe even a wisdom option for melee-Divines as well.

Viable Diversity is good.

[jakeelala]

Umm did you read the same Cetus build thread that I did? Have you played your own version of his build?

There is a stupid amount of investment needed to get a workable stunning DC...

On my monk wraps build, I can get a mid-low 70s stun DC with not nearly as much investment as I need to on my Cetus clone...If I went BF, I could get it even higher

If you have a group of, lets say 5 creatures. It would take ~3 seconds for a Shirardi Caster to get them all nerve venomed. It would take probably 5-6 for an AA with Nerve Venom or Pin/Ottos. It would take a melee, 60-75 SECONDS, IF they all fail the save. Nerve Venom/Otto's Whistler/Pin have no save...

So how is it melees are even remotely on the same level as a caster or AA?

I'm not advocating for an AoE stun effect, but there needs to be something added, and the CD of Stunning Blow has to be decreased.



I would LOVE to see video evidence of a Shiradi Caster taking ~3 seconds to nerve venom 5 enemies 100% of the time.

This is a utter dog poo. It's not true.

[Synthetic]

Cool new abilities sound sweet, but how would the DC be determined? I'm not sold on the idea of making divine might splashes the option for a tactics build combining excellent DPS and cc. So suggestions that I think could help the idea gain more acceptance and improve the melee vs ranged cc issue.

1 make tactics items generalized i.e. combat mastery and exceptional combat mastery no trip/sunder/stun etc specific ones. So you get more use out of those slots if you take tactics based feats - QP may have to be taken into account
2 make nerve venom a stance or make it disable opponents but not make them helpless. Remove the current force field and adrenaline price and let nerve venom replace one to help sweeten the pill.
3 add a new ED with some of the suggestions in the OP so you could play a melee CC build but have DC not connected to a specific stat. Granted it wouldn't have the damage of other melee ED so probably get complaints about it.
4 improve some cc on enhancements - censure demon for example could be all evil outsiders and undead to start and all evil opponents for the improved version. Maybe something in dws that improves tactics vs favored enemies.

[Teh_Troll]

Divine might is fine. There are so many ways to get buffed str that its not that big of an issue.

Not as a 2-level splash it ain't. Especially when Fighter is so front loaded taking more than 12 levels ever makes no sense.



The issue has been the cooldown of SB not being equal to SF. This has been brought up periodically for years now and no adjustment has ever been made.

The cooldowns should be the same.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Not as a 2-level splash it ain't. Especially when Fighter is so front loaded taking more than 12 levels ever makes no sense. The cooldowns should be the same.

Eh, I agree to an extent but you don't need a 2 level splash. 1 level of FvS or Cleric will get you DM just as easily.
I think the problem is more with EE mobs having such ridiculous saves, and DC's of there own.

I think you'd see a lot more people splashing those classes over paladin if they didn't feel the +15 to saves was required in EE.

I agree that DM is really powerful though, Just not really OP.
There is a definite trade of to getting DM compared to going with a different splash, it's just went you pair it with Pali saves it becomes OP.

If you didn't need such high Str for stunning blow, and Cha didn't give you huge bonus' to saves with a pali splash would you really be putting as much into Cha for DM use as you do now? I probably wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't use as many build points on it. On my current build I had to start with a base 11Con so I could put enough points into str, Cha, and wis and still put enough into Int so that I could get all the skills I needed while leveling. That may not seem like such a bad thing, but at level 18 I barely break 400 HP.

[Takllin]

I would LOVE to see video evidence of a Shiradi Caster taking ~3 seconds to nerve venom 5 enemies 100% of the time.

This is a utter dog poo. It's not true.

I like that this is your only contribution to the thread...Have something productive to say or just trying to nitpick one number?

Those numbers were best case scenarios, not 100% of the time it happens.

[Takllin]

OMG you are thick - again, with this rambling wall of text - more comments in red for crying out loud


I stopped commenting after the magister statement, you clearly need more in-game experience, sorry man.

fwiw, comments in red

Just ignore him, he clearly doesn't play EE and has no idea what he is talking about.


The STR requirement is broken as it require Divine Might to get a DC that works more than 5% of the time in end-game.

Stunning blow should be re-formulated.

Divine Might should be examined for balance issues. As it is now it is far too frontloaded.

True I completely agree. I;d like to see SB DC reduced to that of SF, formula recalculated, and DM put further up into the KotC tree. TBH, I think it should be a Tier 5. It should be Tier 5 in the Warpriest tree as well.

[Thayion516]

I think Melees should get more Helpless/Knockdown abilities. This would be an easy change and would let Melee add more to the bottom line of combat.

We all know that Overwhelming Force, Pin/Whistler are Awesome abilities as they DIRECTLY effect the tide and pace of combat (mentioning Nerve Venom here also as it is extremely useful but does not make helpless). They directly bring CC abilities to the fight and prove extremely useful for overcoming the HPs of EE creatures with the Helpless tag. Helpless helps the entire party to accomplish the goal of killing difficult mobs.

One thing about Overwhelming Force is it is a T4 ability that rely's on a previous tiered ability and therefore not twistable, you MUST be in FotW tree to get it, and have to have already filled most of the tree. OF is located about right for its power level. A No-Save CC Helpless effect with a minimum of 15 points to fully use it. Very Nice for a Melee.

DO THIS MORE and adjust the action UP on the tree so that it is not twistable for overpowering twists. And make them more landable.

Example.
Lay Waste T3 LD Destiny. (Cooldown 1 min) Perform an Area of Effect attack with +5[W] damage and +1 critical damage multiplier. On Hit Knocks the target down, Balance DC (10 + Character Level + Strength Modifier) Negates. Momentum Swing has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown of this ability (this cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds). You must have Stance: Power Attack active to perform this ability.

Change To,

Lay Waste T5 LD Destiny. (Cooldown 1 min) Perform an Area of Effect attack with +5[W] damage and +1 critical damage multiplier. On Hit Knocks the target down for 2/4/6 seconds, Balance DC (10 + Character Level + Strength Modifier + Trip Item Modifier + Misc Modifier) Negates. Knocked Down targets under Momentum Swing are considered Helpless. Momentum Swing has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown of this ability (this cannot occur more than once every 5 seconds). You must have Stance: Power Attack active to perform this ability.

Brings immediate CC and usefulness to the Melee that are in LD. Adds to party survivability as well as the survivability of individual characters as they are meleeing in the heat of battle.

Another Example:

Hardened: T5 US Destiny. Passive Bonus: +[5/10/15] AC. ... Honestly this ability is trash for a T5. An Absolute No-Go.

Change to,

Shield Crush: T5 US Destiny. Passive Ability. Any time you Attack with a shield attack. You have a 20% chance to knock an opponent down for 2/4/6 seconds. This knockdown causes a Helpless state. On a Shield Crush attack that produces a critical hit, that attack will do +5(W) damage instead.

Thats the kind of ability I want to see from a brutal shield bash! Helps shield using Melees to do what they want to do. Use a shield for Defense and Offense. They could use that ability to slow down the tide of battle by focusing on 2 or 3 mobs to CC them semi effectively and helps the DPS of the group.

OR a cool idea: An ability that Asorbs a single hit but causes -30 durability on a sheild? Tower of Stone?

I want some way to interact with the MOBs as a melee instead of Run in, 4/5 swings maybe a tactical or 2, then run away and Heal Heal cuz they just hit me for 700 in 2 hits.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Secondly, let's say it again OP's suggestions were for all melees not only paly splashes.

OP's suggestion would help meeles without mentioned STR boosts just like a new CC spell would help a caster that dumped it's casting stat. OP wants a boost for his own build altho it would include other pally + fighter variations that are gimp by not going 6 mnk. It would leave pally OR fighter splashes struggling with DC's and never acheiving no fail while all the rest would have zero use out of it.

I'm wondering what part of what i just repeated do you not understand? Or do you just want a toy that you can play with in eh? I'm looking at strictly ee endgame point and introducing this would benefit a very select few of the meele types.

[Dalsheel]

You really don't understand do you...How many builds can currently achieve a viable EE SB DC? How many can achieve a viable EE Stunning Fist DC. Ill tell you since I don't think you can figure it out, its a handful for SB, its a lot for Stunning Fist.

What is there to understand dude? I understand perfectly that you can achieve higher DC than my main and you cry about it. I can land stuns on EE Stormhorns with 75DC and at least 80% success, you claim to have problems with 79DC... Obviously you're doing it wrong. PLAY BETTER!


If you want a EE viable Stunning Blow DC, you are forced into 2 of 3 available classes. You are forced into getting 3 Fighter Past Lives. You are forced into either using a Stunning Dunrobar, Mornh, or a Drow Weapon w/ Stunning +10. You are forced into sustaining short term buffs 24/7. I would love to achieve a viable Stunning Blow DC on other builds, but it just isn't possible. Yes it is a mob saves issue as well, but it still doesn't solve the problem that melees do not have enough tactics.

Of course you'll do 3 fighter lives and of course you'll use stunning item. Why are you even debating these things? Melees use tactics items just like casters use spell focus items, I don't see why this is wrong or excessive as you seem to think. It's the way the game works, you boost your abilities with items... welcome to DDO!
Plenty of tactics going around, all you need to do is be willing to use them. You don't like the way SB works, no problem! You can reroll your toon, forget about SB, and CC with Tantrum, Ear Smash, Lay Waste and Overwhelming Force. Why don't you do it?


The investment in STR isn't for DPS, it is so that we can achieve a viable SB DC. Yes, we do achieve more DPS because we are investing in STR, but the amount of which we need to do so is absurd.

Glad you're starting to get it. It's a rather simple concept for the rest of us, I don't know why it took you so long to realize that 1 score used for both CC and DPS is better than 1 for CC and 1 for DPS... Now, contemplate on why SB has double the cool down of SF.


This thread has been derailed so much. I am still against adding Cleave stuns or Cleave trips that cause helpless state. As someone else stated earlier we may as well have all the mobs on perma helpless state and just hack n slash until we get bored. Additionally, I'm quite certain feats like these will further the gap between novice and veteran players, as veterans will be way better equipped to use them with success while newbies won't. We need new players people and once we get them they need to have a reason to stay.

[Nédime]

OP's suggestion would help meeles without mentioned STR boosts just like a new CC spell would help a caster that dumped it's casting stat. OP wants a boost for his own build altho it would include other pally + fighter variations that are gimp by not going 6 mnk. It would leave pally OR fighter splashes struggling with DC's and never acheiving no fail while all the rest would have zero use out of it.

I'm wondering what part of what i just repeated do you not understand? Or do you just want a toy that you can play with in eh? I'm looking at strictly ee endgame point and introducing this would benefit a very select few of the meele types.

Hum, I start to see that some ppl are in a kind of leadership war here ("his build is more fotm than mine so I will try to blame it for all I don't like in the game's evolution"). The fact many toons - including cetus - use a boost (DM, action boost, action surge) to be able to land more reliable stuns or trips in end game isn't a cause, it's a consequence. As long as you are unable to make this evident difference there will be no possible dialogue.

[Cetus]

Melees use tactics items just like casters use spell focus items, I don't see why this is wrong or excessive as you seem to think. It's the way the game works, you boost your abilities with items... welcome to DDO!

Apparently shiradi casters and archers using nerve venom otto's whistler, and pin aren't welcome to ddo. Because there is no boosting to be done, it just...WORKS!

This is my main gripe - what you just outlined above, regarding using tactics items, boosting abilities, etc...is exactly what I'm pushing for - that's what the word investment means.

The aforementioned don't require any investment, whereas stunning blow does and doesn't even match the effectiveness once boosted. Is this clear?

[Takllin]

Apparently shiradi casters and archers using nerve venom otto's whistler, and pin aren't welcome to ddo. Because there is no boosting to be done, it just...WORKS!

This is my main gripe - what you just outlined above, regarding using tactics items, boosting abilities, etc...is exactly what I'm pushing for - that's what the word investment means.

The aforementioned don't require any investment, whereas stunning blow does and doesn't even match the effectiveness once boosted. Is this clear?

I had a big post written up, but this sums it up much shorter than mine.

@IxidorGR
Your reading comprehension blows...I never said I have problems getting Stunning Blow to work with a 79 DC. I pointed out exactly how hard it is to get a 79 DC.

I was also pointing out the investments that melees who use SB have to do, not debating over gear or enhancement choices. You were arguing that SF takes more of an investment than SB does, which is horribly wrong and been pointed out numerous times. Not to mention, Overwhelming Force requires FotW, and is not a tactic, it just works if you use adrenaline. It's unreliable. Lay Waste is also a trip effect, also unreliable as it needs Momentum Swing or you have a horribly long CD. Even then it doesn't reset it nearly enough. The last two you mentioned are available to barbarians only. Tantrum is horrible, and has a horrible DC. It also only works 50% OF THE TIME. Unreliable. Ear Smash is also not a tactic, doesn't make them helpless(if it does, it's not in the description) and only stops spell casting...

[TheLegendOfAra]

Is this clear?
Clearly not.
reading comprehension; It's real hard guys.

[Tilomere]

Apparently shiradi casters and archers using nerve venom otto's whistler, and pin aren't welcome to ddo. Because there is no boosting to be done, it just...WORKS!

This is my main gripe - what you just outlined above, regarding using tactics items, boosting abilities, etc...is exactly what I'm pushing for - that's what the word investment means.

The aforementioned don't require any investment, whereas stunning blow does and doesn't even match the effectiveness once boosted. Is this clear?


Epic level abilities are stronger than heroic ones regardless of investment. Comparing stunning blow feat to after investment to nerve venom which is a tier 5 ED ability that is so powerful it cannot be twisted is on par with comparing fireball after investment with energy vortex.

You are complaining about epic destiny abilities which have rough melee matches that you choose not to use, because you are using something you feel is better dps. That's like a draconic sorc who loves dps complaining about a lack of nerve venom, while being unwilling to give up energy vortex and dragon breaths.


If you are going to compare single feats to tier 5 ED abilities, why don't you compare the effects of Blitz against a single caster feat after investment. How about those 10 charges of 10 missiles you were talking about from the arcane past life active feat you can use quickened you were talking about. (Very neat trick btw) That requires a past life to make work like stunning blow, and gear to add damage to.

A fair comparison for Nerve Venom is Energy Vortex or Blitz, not a single feat you pick up at level 1.

Edit: Pin and Whistler also currently cost the 2-3 twists for Consecrate/Sacred Ground to heal your party through EEs, as well as sense weakness outside of fury. While you can heal yourself by switching to BF, that locks out the full elven AA tree, and still doesn't heal a party. I can't make an AoE healing 18-1-1 barb/cleric/rngr critical rage/death frenzy bowbarian or elf AA in LD charging blitz with supreme cleave with pin, whistler, sacred ground, sense weakness, and consecrate all twisted at the same time.

[Blackheartox]

Epic level abilities are stronger than heroic ones regardless of investment. Comparing stunning blow feat to after investment to nerve venom which is a tier 5 ED ability that is so powerful it cannot be twisted is on par with comparing fireball after investment with energy vortex.

You are complaining about epic destiny abilities which have rough melee matches that you choose not to use, because you are using something you feel is better dps. That's like a draconic sorc who loves dps complaining about a lack of nerve venom, while being unwilling to give up energy vortex and dragon breaths.


If you are going to compare single feats to tier 5 ED abilities, why don't you compare the effects of Blitz against a single caster feat after investment. How about those 10 charges of 10 missiles you were talking about from the arcane past life active feat you can use quickened you were talking about. (Very neat trick btw) That requires a past life to make work like stunning blow, and gear to add damage to.

A fair comparison for Nerve Venom is Energy Vortex or Blitz, not a single feat you pick up at level 1.

A properly played draconic sorc wont complain about nerve venom.
Why? Because it has MASS HOLD AND WEB AND OTTOS DANCE THAT WORK PERFECTLY FINE, ARE HEROIC ABILITIES AND ON A PROPERLY GEARED SORC WILL BE CLOSE TO NO FAIL.
So pls stick to eh and dont comment here anymore since you lack experience in playing the game on ee.
Investment wise a sorc or wizzy can do way much more with heroic abilities then a melle can do with epic abilities.
And if you want to compare stuning blow to nerve venom with edes vs heroic, il just say ottos iresistable and power word stun vs stun blow.
No fail kit vs fail kit, no fail kit also has shorter cd for ottos.
The difference becomes even greater if you add in nerve venom and otos/whistler.
Since they are aoe stuns and can be used properly to reliably control multiple enemies at a time.
Do melle get any kind reliable noninvestment aoe control ability from edestenies?

[Powskier]

fighters dont need to be superpowers;but I'm noticing my trip dosent really 'kick' em down anymore in epics,like heroic.Somethin is wrong with the #s ;I have 2 fighter past lives and alot of DC bonus'lvl28 ....just tested in GH slayer ,really not tripping enemies at all,the % was to sad to bother to calculate.My knockdown w whepon works alot.Same prob w sunder;hit epic and enemies resist everything except ED powers.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Hum, I start to see that some ppl are in a kind of leadership war here ("his build is more fotm than mine so I will try to blame it for all I don't like in the game's evolution"). The fact many toons - including cetus - use a boost (DM, action boost, action surge) to be able to land more reliable stuns or trips in end game isn't a cause, it's a consequence. As long as you are unable to make this evident difference there will be no possible dialogue.

LOL. Cause or consequence why does it matter? I'm not looking to find someone to blame. I'm voicing my concerns as i do play this game and care about what will happen to it in the future.

Maby you are proposing that the DC of the new abilites be so low that anyone can reach it? This would make it reachable for both a maxed out str pure ranger or a str dumped sorcerer with a fvs splash... It makes no sence and is almost as bad as making it a no save. Every one of those abilites makes serious problems - shirady should be more than enough proof.

Str is pretty broken in this game atm and adding usable abilites on top of this broken foundation can only make the whole thing fall apart.

[Nédime]

Okay. Seems we don't aggree on what is tactics for a melee.

Maybe it would be more productive to list what a melee can do to cc in h2h combat ? And see which is effective and at what cost ?

[Nédime]

LOL. Cause or consequence why does it matter? I'm not looking to find someone to blame. I'm voicing my concerns as i do play this game and care about what will happen to it in the future.

Maby you are proposing that the DC of the new abilites be so low that anyone can reach it? This would make it reachable for both a maxed out str pure ranger or a str dumped sorcerer with a fvs splash... It makes no sence and is almost as bad as making it a no save. Every one of those abilites makes serious problems - shirady should be more than enough proof.

Str is pretty broken in this game atm and adding usable abilites on top of this broken foundation can only make the whole thing fall apart.

There are 2 different things in this thread :

- what various thing does a melee have if he wants to try and cc a bit ?
- are those reachable, sustainable, at what cost ?

As I see things we should distinguish between those two points because one depends on abilities/feat/ed development while the second is more 'philopsophical' and touches end game design (including quest design, mobs stats etc.)

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Okay. Seems we don't aggree on what is tactics for a melee.

Maybe it would be more productive to list what a melee can do to cc in h2h combat ? And see which is effective and at what cost ?

You seam to talk about melee in general. I totally agree melee (in general) should get some tactics that are viable in endgame ee. This means no str mod. Something that will be usefull to both top str cetus as well as pure rogue or ranger.

We don't need to agree on what is tactics. It's well documented Tactical feats (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tactical_feat) and if you take a look at them you will see that they are not strictly str and some don't even have a dc.

[Nodoze]

Maybe give new tactics to S&B builds to make them more viable...

If there was ever an AoE stun maybe make it a Shield-Cleave and something that a TWF, THF, SWF just can't do...

[Nédime]

You seam to talk about melee in general. I totally agree melee (in general) should get some tactics that are viable in endgame ee. This means no str mod. Something that will be usefull to both top str cetus as well as pure rogue or ranger.

We don't need to agree on what is tactics. It's well documented Tactical feats (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tactical_feat) and if you take a look at them you will see that they are not strictly str and some don't even have a dc.

Why limit the list to feats ?

[iRexxar]

fixing meele? bring back CC

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Why limit the list to feats ?

Feats are available to everyone, figured it would be the best place to put something for all the meeles.

Other places are enhancements but that's probably too restrictive as it targets a specific class. Destinys are epic level only and apart from that main melee destinys are already covered - fury has one of the best tactics if you can call it that and LD has lay waste that favours high str builds (again) and is anyway kinda op.

[Takllin]

You seam to talk about melee in general. I totally agree melee (in general) should get some tactics that are viable in endgame ee. This means no str mod. Something that will be usefull to both top str cetus as well as pure rogue or ranger.

We don't need to agree on what is tactics. It's well documented Tactical feats (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tactical_feat) and if you take a look at them you will see that they are not strictly str and some don't even have a dc.

Someone else suggested giving the Tactics the ability to use the highest of Dex/Str/Con, which I think is a wonderful idea. We want to help create diversity, not more FotM build types.

They do need to rebalance mob saves, enhancements so that they are not so front loaded. Taking away STR from whatever tactics they introduce is poor design. No one is saying that if they introduce new tactics it is to make the Cetus build better. I believe he explicitly said it could be available to a pure 20 Fighter, so I'm not sure where all the hate is coming from. The idea is to add more tactics and rework what we currently have, not to make his FotM build better per say.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/149927-Stratics-Chat-Transcript?p=1747596#post1747596

This is a post from 2008, where Eladrin stated that a bunch of melee tactical feats would be introduced that especially Fighters would like. I could be mistaken but I'm fairly certain that this never came to fruition...Is there any of that stuff still laying around on the Dev side?

[Takllin]

Feats are available to everyone, figured it would be the best place to put something for all the meeles.

Other places are enhancements but that's probably too restrictive as it targets a specific class. Destinys are epic level only and apart from that main melee destinys are already covered - fury has one of the best tactics if you can call it that and LD has lay waste that favours high str builds (again) and is anyway kinda op.

Fury is unreliable for CC. 33% chance of a 5% chance to get Adrenaline back...thats a horribly low number.

Lay Waste used to be OP when mob saves weren't wicked high and Momentum Swing had a much higher chance to bring it off CD. Now it's just meh.

[Cetus]

Epic level abilities are stronger than heroic ones regardless of investment. Comparing stunning blow feat to after investment to nerve venom which is a tier 5 ED ability that is so powerful it cannot be twisted is on par with comparing fireball after investment with energy vortex.

I agree. Which is exactly why I started this thread, to see if melees can get some epic level CC's and not just one heroic tactic, for crying out load - that's the POINT.

Your nerve venom is available to archers and casters, and you agreed that its so powerful that its a high tier ED ability and cannot be twisted. We're good here


You are complaining about epic destiny abilities which have rough melee matches that you choose not to use, because you are using something you feel is better dps

Back to Nonsense. What is a "rough melee match"? You think balancing strikes and lay waste are rough melee matches to nerve venom, pin, and otto's whistler? We've been through this already, read my previous posts.


That's like a draconic sorc who loves dps complaining about a lack of nerve venom, while being unwilling to give up energy vortex and dragon breaths.

What draconic sorc complains about not having nerve venom? They have MASS HOLD, POWER WORD STUN, OTTO's IRRESISTIBLE, OTTO's SPHERE, GREATER SHOUT, WEB - which, mind you, are heroic caliber abilities and can CC/Helpless things at will - that's why I'll never play an endgame shiradi sorc - I'd rather use abilities I worked to make relevant in EE content instead of just opting out for the cheese button. Newer players should have incentive to make themselves better by precisely making them use CC abilities that require work. Not just be content with a first life shiradi who can nerve venom things as well as a completionist/epic completionist.



If you are going to compare single feats to tier 5 ED abilities, why don't you compare the effects of Blitz against a single caster feat after investment.

I'm comparing tier 5 epic abilities to stunning blow precisely because there ARE NO OTHER EPIC LEVEL MELEE CC ENHANCEMENTS TO COMPARE TO. The only ones you can bring up are balancing strikes, which I've exhaustively (and conclusively) broke down as a THF excluding, vorpal reliant, miss/graze prone, 2 second knockdown which has zero control. The other one is lay waste, which has a ridiculously long cooldown, momentum swing refreshes aren't enough to make its cooldown less painful, doesn't helpless, and the trip doesn't last that long. The last one is adrenaline, which is the only one that comes closest - and even that has limited charges, and is better spent on a furyshot anyway because of how brokenly OP it operates with archery. We are left with nothing that can compete with nerve venom, pin, or otto's.


How about those 10 charges of 10 missiles you were talking about from the arcane past life active feat you can use quickened you were talking about. (Very neat trick btw) That requires a past life to make work like stunning blow, and gear to add damage to.

Lol. Do you realize that the feat adds +1 universal DC to casters? This statement reveals the blatant lack of knowledge you bring to this discussion. The missiles require no investment, no gear, no AP's, no ED points, its a by-product of the +1 DC we get from the feat. AND it CC's mobs with nerve venom while simultaneously delivering significant damage if in shiradi.


A fair comparison for Nerve Venom is Energy Vortex or Blitz, not a single feat you pick up at level 1.

Nerve venom and energy vortex/blitz are like comparing apples and oranges - I didn't start a thread asking for melees to get more DPS, energy vortex and blitz are DPS abilities, with which I'm not concerned with at all. I'm concerned with tactics - do you think before you respond here?


Edit: Pin and Whistler also currently cost the 2-3 twists for Consecrate/Sacred Ground to heal your party through EEs, as well as sense weakness outside of fury. While you can heal yourself by switching to BF, that locks out the full elven AA tree, and still doesn't heal a party. I can't make an AoE healing 18-1-1 barb/cleric/rngr critical rage/death frenzy bowbarian or elf AA in LD charging blitz with supreme cleave with pin, whistler, sacred ground, sense weakness, and consecrate all twisted at the same time.

What? What the hell are you talking about in this last bit? Totally useless, irrelevant, non-productive chatter. Now we're talking about healing? This thread is about melee's lack of TACTICS with respect to the alternate build choices. NOT healing or DPS.

[Cetus]

Someone else suggested giving the Tactics the ability to use the highest of Dex/Str/Con, which I think is a wonderful idea. We want to help create diversity, not more FotM build types.

They do need to rebalance mob saves, enhancements so that they are not so front loaded. Taking away STR from whatever tactics they introduce is poor design. No one is saying that if they introduce new tactics it is to make the Cetus build better. I believe he explicitly said it could be available to a pure 20 Fighter, so I'm not sure where all the hate is coming from. The idea is to add more tactics and rework what we currently have, not to make his FotM build better per say.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/149927-Stratics-Chat-Transcript?p=1747596#post1747596

This is a post from 2008, where Eladrin stated that a bunch of melee tactical feats would be introduced that especially Fighters would like. I could be mistaken but I'm fairly certain that this never came to fruition...Is there any of that stuff still laying around on the Dev side?

Oh, nice find - here's the particular quote"

[18:32] Eladrin: I will answer all of the questions myself! Prestige enhancements are planned for fighters and paladins. Before that, however, the melee classes (especially fighters) will be glad to see an array of tactical feats made available to them.

[Nightmanis]

What? What the hell are you talking about in this last bit? Totally useless, irrelevant, non-productive chatter. Now we're talking about healing? This thread is about melee's lack of TACTICS with respect to the alternate build choices. NOT healing or DPS.

At this point I'd just suggest you stop responding to him. He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about, has not tested anything on EE, and is trying to drag the focus away from the main idea of the discussion.

I'm all for more different tactical options. Yes giving us more ways to make mobs helpless might have the side effect of being able to keep really powerful enemies on permanent lockdown (of which a monk with a sufficient stunning fist dc CAN ALREADY DO). Obviously I'm even more for giving S&B more interesting tactics and also giving alternative dps stat characters more options for CC.

In regards to how good Pin is, I used to twist that in onto whomever I was playing just to use with a throwing weapon. It worked far too well not to. Use that, then when that was on cooldown I had to make sure I had the correct gear equipped and was properly buffed up just to try and get my SB dc up high enough to actually be useful.

[walkin_dude]

Start with 16 wisdom as example, 11 item 3 insight 1 exp 2 shipie 5 tome 2 completionist 2 yugo as bare minimum.
And you end at 42 wisdom minimum. Pick 2 from monks and its 44 wisdom giving a modifier of 17 pumping your stun fist dc to 41 before stuning items. Add 3 fighter plifes 44 alrdy. 16 from items. 60 dc with 0 effort.

That's zero effort?! @_@

[Powskier]

melee may need an overhaul ,for EE content. I like playin melee anyways;i quite enjoy epic hard,and if thats where melee limits end ,so be it.I dont wanna kite off mages and rangers,and I'm surely not playin one ,for now.I dont see the rewards good enough to bother w EE. With 7500 hit points for a common enemy,EE isnt made for Melee.Overhaul all you want;tactics cant change the #s.........a 5k hit point damage melee swing would do.

[Teh_Troll]

melee may need an overhaul ,for EE content. I like playin melee anyways;i quite enjoy epic hard,and if thats where melee limits end ,so be it.I dont wanna kite off mages and rangers,and I'm surely not playin one ,for now.I dont see the rewards good enough to bother w EE. With 7500 hit points for a common enemy,EE isnt made for Melee.Overhaul all you want;tactics cant change the #s.........a 5k hit point damage melee swing would do.

Correction . . . YOUR melees might not cut it in EE. Others don't have that issue.

[Takllin]

Correction . . . YOUR melees might not cut it in EE. Others don't have that issue.

Melee's have it the hardest in EE, but they are certainly not as bad as the above poster thinks. They just take more work and skill than most.

[Powskier]

Correction . . . YOUR melees might not cut it in EE. Others don't have that issue.

Not a mattrer of cuttin it.it isnt worth the time and effort.ANY melee is weakest part in any EE party. Hell ,my bard could hang in EE party fine in 1st life adventurer build. Any build should be viable in EE. It is silly anyways,watchin bowmen jump and run in circles.

[Takllin]

Not a mattrer of cuttin it.it isnt worth the time and effort.ANY melee is weakest part in any EE party. Hell ,my bard could hang in EE party fine in 1st life adventurer build. Any build should be viable in EE. It is silly anyways,watchin bowmen jump and run in circles.

That's not true whatsoever. Just plain wrong. Not every build should be EE viable either.

[Teh_Troll]

Not a mattrer of cuttin it.it isnt worth the time and effort.ANY melee is weakest part in any EE party. Hell ,my bard could hang in EE party fine in 1st life adventurer build. Any build should be viable in EE. It is silly anyways,watchin bowmen jump and run in circles.

Wrong.

[Tilomere]

I'm concerned with tactics - do you think before you respond here?

If you were concerned with tactics, all your suggested tactics in your first post wouldn't be essentially helpless insta-kills for a LD blitzed melee with a max or near max dps ESOS/EAGA/Sireth THF style.

Real tactics like Trip or Improved Trip you already don't use. You don't even consider these tactics or list them. You don't consider using anything that doesn't do full ****** mode dps. You are playing a centered character with Ki. On top of everything I listed you have access to stunning fist and GMOF Drifting lotus, which perfectly match that "investment controlled use" you want. You have access to other monk enhancement CC attacks like jade strike, unbalancing strike + improved trip, dismissing strike, or Kukan-do, etc. You have access to THF with a lesser crit profile and gain use of Anvil of Thunder. You choose not to use anything other than strength dps boosted stunning blow in your search for maximum ESOS dps. This is one of the reasons I adapted your build for learning how to DPS. It is the best straight forward raw dps ignore subtlety and complex interaction approach I've seen to melee dps.

Why don't you just cut to the chase and say you want more strength based insta-kills in the game. You already have a ton of available CC and tactics you won't use because it cuts down on dps.


Oh right, can't forget the "after investment" part so average builds can't use them. The game needs more 'investment' noob traps average builds can't get to work to sabotage them even more, while elite builds turn them into insta-kills.

----------------------

Take the leap of faith that enough of what you need is already available, try it, then come back if it isn't enough. It's what I had to do to learn to dps. It would be particularly symmetrical if you learned from my druid build how to CC, since I learned from your fighter how to dps. I had to take a huge leap of faith and abandon all die steps and end up with a 1d10 19-20x3 base druid. I took the leap despite basically all conventional druid knowledge saying to stack damage dies. Look at the first 107 posts here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424332-TWF-feats-now-work-with-Wolf-and-Bear-forms-is-this-wai?p=5134268&viewfull=1#post5134268). It seemed like an impossible and completely foreign chasm to leap.

Then I realized that when I was pumping out 8k+ dps on stunned mobs and stunning on demand and on attack every few seconds every mob type in the game that it all works out. Things just explode. But you do have to take that leap of faith first into the unknown. I'll help you by uh ... borrowing your ESOS.

[Blackheartox]

That's zero effort?! @_@

Yea realized how stupid is what i wrote, as i take into account everyone has ee shadowsigh 3 wisdom item, 3 fight plifes heh.

Well what i wanted to say is, the gear you pursuit as monk will give you most to you dcs anyways, while that same gear for a fighter comes with sacrifice of losing valuable dps slot gear.
As fighter you need to make sacrifices to get to a reasonable ammount of dc, you are forced to get divine might to get ee viable stun.
To me for example it was harder to get consumin darknes and a stuning dunrobar then it was in monk life to get sunder ring and challenge 6 dc belt.
IT was also way easier to get ee shadowsight then a 11 str belt, yes one gives me dps 2nd one only dc and some accuracy and slot.
But with monk gear i have no issues what i want in what slot, but as fighter i usualy rethink what where during etring.
Compare a monk stun fist stun vs stun blow.
Yes a stun blow can get extremely high with dmight builds, but thing is a stun first is more reliable since you get double proc of it and a shorter cd.
Even if you put stun blow to 2 weapon fight style the lower cd on stun fist and added half character level to it makes it still superior in any way.
Stun blow has a to long cd after the limits when you look at it.
Without fighter/palie split its realy hard to get a reasonable stun blow dc for ee content wheras you can get reasonable stun fist with any monk build/hybrid since it isnt monk level based but char based.
Take into account how quiler palm was recently "fixed", but on a pdk char wisdom based build, you can still get quite impressive 1 shot ability that works realiably in lower ee content and is ok with debuffer/sunder even in high end ee content.
Take into fact also how broken stupid fist acts with wolf form, it becomes nearly imposibly awkward why 1 ability is so superior to the other.
Trip for example, some people pointed it out, why dont people use trip more?

Well il tell you why, high end ee content mobs have such high balance that they stand up quite fast even if you use epic blademark docent and a 6 exp dc item. IT just makes no sense whatsoever how useless this tactical becomes.
land chance is quite low and they stand up to fast, its even on casters a realy unreliable cc ability on builds built to make the best use of it.
While im writing about trip, has anyone used the rogue acrobat aoe trip? ITs wonderful in heroic, but once you hit epics and enter into your first ee as a full fledged dex build, you notice the duration of it being totaly worthless and you go reset your aps after first quest.

[Takllin]

I'm concerned with tactics - do you think before you respond here?

If you were concerned with tactics, all your suggested tactics in your first post wouldn't be essentially helpless insta-kills for a LD blitzed melee with a max or near max dps ESOS/EAGA/Sireth THF style.

Real tactics like Trip or Improved Trip you already don't use. You don't even consider these tactics or list them. You don't consider using anything that doesn't do full ****** mode dps.

Why don't you just cut to the chase and say you want more strength based insta-kills in the game. Oh right, "after investment" so average builds can't use them.

Sounds great, lets add even more noob traps into the game that average players can't get to work and sabotage them even more, while elite builds turn them into insta-kills. That's exactly what melee needs right now.

And while we are at it, lets add a DC to nerve venom, pin, and whistler, because average players don't deserve abilities that work until after investment.

You know what happens when you make assumptions? Well I'd spell it out for you, but I already got one infraction in this thread and I'd rather not get another...

He does use Trip, and considers both of those a tactic. He has an Epic Blademark Docent so that he can hotswap it for Trip. Where does he say he only wants tactics for max DPS THF toons? Oh that's right...he didn't....He pointed out that one thing you said is a tactic, which isn't, is not available to all kinds of toons. It excludes THF.

Were not looking for insta-kills either, were looking for more tactics and CC abilities. There was also never a point where these suggested new CC abilities be on the same par of investment as Stunning Blow is. It was pointed out exactly how much investment is needed to make our one helpless tactic useful, versus the multiple at will abilities that other characters have.

How is this sabotaging new players to the game? It is giving more options and diversity...These new things would not be instant kills either...There was never a call to nerve Nerf Venom or any of the like...

He is asking for more tactics, for more diversity and options, and there was never a point in time where he said these new things need to only be available to the max DPS/STR builds currently in the game.

You really need to go play Epic Elites, basing your comments on only Epic Hard versions of quests is no where near the same as Epic Elites.

[JOTMON]

Why don't you just cut to the chase and say you want more strength based insta-kills in the game. Oh right, "after investment" so average builds can't use them.

Sounds great, lets add even more noob traps into the game that average players can't get to work and sabotage them even more, while elite builds turn them into insta-kills. That's exactly what melee needs right now.

And while we are at it, lets add a DC to nerve venom, pin, and whistler, because average players don't deserve abilities that work until after investment.


Your post here doesnt make much sense..

So you want average players to not have to invest in anything and still be able to be effective in the most difficult EE content.

What would be the point of playing the game if you didn't have to develop and prepare yourself to be ready for more difficult content.

Why grind for gear, past lives, figure out feats, enhancements, understand the complexities of the game...

If it doesnt add benefit to the build there would be no point to any of it. Everyone could just runaround with the starter Korthos gear


The whole point of DC's is to provide a benchmark for success/fail on some sort of an attack that will offer opportunity or benefit.

If it is not achievable then it it worthless, if it is to easy to achieve then it shouldn't be as effective.


If there is no challenge to winning then it is a worthless win

[Gremmlynn]

Momentum Swing can also be twisted, and is not a stun, but is an AoE CC. This is often twisted, and works with any weapon. Sadly it doesn't work in druid form. The cost of momentum swing as a twist is dps, but in LD isn't very high.Hmm, for me it works as single target DPS. Unless you mean Lay Waste, which, without also twisting in Momentum Swing to possibly reset it faster, has a 1 minute cool down. So more an "OH S&#%" twist than something you use on a regular basis.

[Gremmlynn]

My comments in red

So what exactly is the huge investment you were talking about? Some AP in the kensei tree and the tactitian ED feat? Because everything else you've listed is pretty much a staple on tactics toons and half of what you've listed also happens to be boosting your overall DPS as well so they can't possibly be considered trade-offs for better DCs

PS: It makes me laugh when I see people complaining about "having to invest in STR". I mean, seriously, take a moment and think what you're saying.While investments in strength do add to DPS, at least for most builds, DPS is something that still works if you have less of it. Tacticals not so much. So it means tacticals are really only useable by max (strength based) DPS builds. For anything built around another stat or anything not close to max strength they are unreliable to the point of not even worth bothering with.

Silly to have a game with this much build flexibility if the mechanics only support a small number of builds with narrow foci.

[Gremmlynn]

Divine might is fine. There are so many ways to get buffed str that its not that big of an issue.

The issue has been the cooldown of SB not being equal to SF. This has been brought up periodically for years now and no adjustment has ever been made.Divine might is not fine as it is one of many strength buffs that it would be better for the game if they didn't stack. Fix that, adjust the game to reflect that fix and a lot of things suddenly become a lot more viable.

[Gremmlynn]

I had a big post written up, but this sums it up much shorter than mine.

@IxidorGR
Your reading comprehension blows...I never said I have problems getting Stunning Blow to work with a 79 DC. I pointed out exactly how hard it is to get a 79 DC.

I was also pointing out the investments that melees who use SB have to do, not debating over gear or enhancement choices. You were arguing that SF takes more of an investment than SB does, which is horribly wrong and been pointed out numerous times. Not to mention, Overwhelming Force requires FotW, and is not a tactic, it just works if you use adrenaline. It's unreliable. Lay Waste is also a trip effect, also unreliable as it needs Momentum Swing or you have a horribly long CD. Even then it doesn't reset it nearly enough. The last two you mentioned are available to barbarians only. Tantrum is horrible, and has a horrible DC. It also only works 50% OF THE TIME. Unreliable. Ear Smash is also not a tactic, doesn't make them helpless(if it does, it's not in the description) and only stops spell casting...I'm afraid I don't quite agree with your definition of what a tactical attack is. Personally, I'd be all for the removal of the entire "helpless" state as the fact that the target is controlled or at least debuffed seems to be plenty of benefit without the need to do extra damage as well (if not removed, at least made a lot rarer, like limited to high tier, long cool down ED abilities). IMO any attack that makes one's opponent less dangerous or more vulnerable is a tactical attack.

Getting away from the perceived "need" to make targets helpless would go a long way towards making lesser effects something the devs might consider. Personally I'd rather get a cleave attack that reduces incoming damage from everything I hit by solid percentage for a time, than not get it because it seems to the devs that all we want are more ways of making everything helpless that they don't want to give us.

[Gremmlynn]

That's not true whatsoever. Just plain wrong. Not every build should be EE viable either.In my experience, it would be more accurate to say that not every, or even many, play style(s) is EE viable. Which is not something I'll necessarily agree with.

[Gremmlynn]

Your post here doesnt make much sense..

So you want average players to not have to invest in anything and still be able to be effective in the most difficult EE content.

What would be the point of playing the game if you didn't have to develop and prepare yourself to be ready for more difficult content.

Why grind for gear, past lives, figure out feats, enhancements, understand the complexities of the game...
To go from viable to nearly no fail, to give players an excuse to keep playing the game and because that's something a particular player finds interesting x3 would seem to cover it. Frankly, figuring out feats and enhancements is something that can easily be outsourced right here on the forums and pretty much eliminates the need to understand the complexities. Personally, I'd rather the game added that complexity back in by making one have to figure out which of many tacticals a given situation calls for, rather than being about how to make one or two reliable enough to even bother trying.

[Takllin]

I'm afraid I don't quite agree with your definition of what a tactical attack is. Personally, I'd be all for the removal of the entire "helpless" state as the fact that the target is controlled or at least debuffed seems to be plenty of benefit without the need to do extra damage as well (if not removed, at least made a lot rarer, like limited to high tier, long cool down ED abilities). IMO any attack that makes one's opponent less dangerous or more vulnerable is a tactical attack.

Getting away from the perceived "need" to make targets helpless would go a long way towards making lesser effects something the devs might consider. Personally I'd rather get a cleave attack that reduces incoming damage from everything I hit by solid percentage for a time, than not get it because it seems to the devs that all we want are more ways of making everything helpless that they don't want to give us.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Tactical_feat

Require a DC check success. Ear Smash and Overwhleming Force do not require any DCs. It's not my definition it is DDO.

We're looking for more tactics in general, not specific to making things helpless. It has been pointed out that other characters have a much easier time doing so compared to melee to prove the point that melees are getting the short end of the stick.

[Takllin]

In my experience, it would be more accurate to say that not every, or even many, play style(s) is EE viable. Which is not something I'll necessarily agree with.

All depends on the player behind the keyboard with some exceptions to the rule. Just because it seems to be a viable play style doesn't mean every player can run EEs with it.

[Leclaire1]

I agree comoletely with this post, and +1 to you Cetus for raising the issue. I also would like to echo what others have said here about simply fixing the DCs on the currently available ones. Stunning blow should be usable by characters other than barbs with insabely high strength. Trip should not have its ridiculous double-verification mechanic that makes it unusable, and should allow for dex builds to make use of it as is the case in pnp. Some sort of overrun or bull rush mechanic wouldn't be bad to add either, but the devs should definitely start with fixing the feats which are already in the game.

[Blackheartox]

I agree comoletely with this post, and +1 to you Cetus for raising the issue. I also would like to echo what others have said here about simply fixing the DCs on the currently available ones. Stunning blow should be usable by characters other than barbs with insabely high strength. Trip should not have its ridiculous double-verification mechanic that makes it unusable, and should allow for dex builds to make use of it as is the case in pnp. Some sort of overrun or bull rush mechanic wouldn't be bad to add either, but the devs should definitely start with fixing the feats which are already in the game.

Smart suggestion, make trip not only str based but also dex based, as its kidna pointles that acrobats dont get a viable trip /the aoe from enchas is to weak as i alrdy pointed out

[redoubt]

I agree comoletely with this post, and +1 to you Cetus for raising the issue. I also would like to echo what others have said here about simply fixing the DCs on the currently available ones. Stunning blow should be usable by characters other than barbs with insabely high strength. Trip should not have its ridiculous double-verification mechanic that makes it unusable, and should allow for dex builds to make use of it as is the case in pnp. Some sort of overrun or bull rush mechanic wouldn't be bad to add either, but the devs should definitely start with fixing the feats which are already in the game.

Good idea on trip for dex.

Whatever is done, don't let the new hotness have such a high DC that Turbine rebalances the game and leaves out all the other DC based attacks, ala eGH.

I am okay with more tactics being available, but if you are talking about cost vs effect consider how current game tactics work on dex builds. If you build a dex based melee, you don't get tactics... Even an assassin has to give up its damage stat to boost assassinate DCs.

This brings me back around to LeClaire's idea. Maybe the next round of tactics should be Dex based. Have a Q-staff attack that is an AOE trip (as others have said.) Dex based slow attack. Heck, even a dex based stun (if you are fast and have enough finesse you could move your weapon inside the defenses of your opponent and stun them with the flat of your blade or stick or whatever...)

What about INT based tactics?

[redoubt]

Also, consider SAP and HAMSTRING. How many people take those? They are no fail and should be awesome because they don't have a save... so why don't more people take them.

[MrChipinator]

Also, consider SAP and HAMSTRING. How many people take those? They are no fail and should be awesome because they don't have a save... so why don't more people take them.

Hamstring requires having a rogue level, and only slows an enemy, useful but doesn't do much for damage mitigation, and Sap only dazes an enemy, the second you do additional damage to it, it's back to smashing.

[redoubt]

Hamstring requires having a rogue level, and only slows an enemy, useful but doesn't do much for damage mitigation, and Sap only dazes an enemy, the second you do additional damage to it, it's back to smashing.


Exactly. They suck. Every useful tactic uses a str based DC...

[Blackheartox]

Exactly. They suck. Every useful tactic uses a str based DC...

*Cough Cough * Stunning fist * Cough Cough *

[Dalsheel]

I didn't want to bother with this thread anymore but, god, this post is... uh... well, read my comments.



Well what i wanted to say is, the gear you pursuit as monk will give you most to you dcs anyways, while that same gear for a fighter comes with sacrifice of losing valuable dps slot gear.
Because it is well known that all monks would still use EE Shadowsight if SF wasn't WIS-based... this is nonsense.


As fighter you need to make sacrifices to get to a reasonable ammount of dc, you are forced to get divine might to get ee viable stun.
To me for example it was harder to get consumin darknes and a stuning dunrobar then it was in monk life to get sunder ring and challenge 6 dc belt.
IT was also way easier to get ee shadowsight then a 11 str belt, yes one gives me dps 2nd one only dc and some accuracy and slot.
But with monk gear i have no issues what i want in what slot, but as fighter i usualy rethink what where during etring.

You make sacrifices as a fighter? What is the sacrifice you're talking about? Name one of them! And don't name *I have to splash pally* as a sacrifice, because you know, NOBODY BELIEVES YOU. DM has become so easily accessible and so powerful after the enhancement pass that saying you're forced to take it is a joke. You want to take it and there's nothing wrong with that, we all gravitate towards powerful abilities.

You say it was harder for you to get a stunning Dun'Robar than it was to get a shattering Dun'Robar and this proves what exactly?
It's a +5DC belt -Spare Hand (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Spare_Hand)- (Cannith challenges) and it was just as useful for Fighters as it was for Monks when it came out. There's also the +6DC cloak -Adamantine Cloak of the Bear (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Adamantine_Cloak_of_the_Bear)-(Eveningstar challenges)

As for the eeShadowsight and the 11STR belt, I hope you realize a monk needs both but a fighter only needs the belt. Once again I'll point out the simplest fact you seem to be unable to grasp: STR for tactics and DPS is better than WIS for tactics and STR for DPS.
As a fighter you have more flexibility on your gear than as a monk, because you simply need not invest in WIS. Every other score is of equal importance to all melees more or less, except CHA of course for DM builds. I'll just say your CHA investment is not nearly as high as a monk's WIS investment. You may start with as high as a 15CHA but you don't put any level up points in it and you don't purchase any CHA enhancements with AP.


Compare a monk stun fist stun vs stun blow.
Yes a stun blow can get extremely high with dmight builds, but thing is a stun first is more reliable since you get double proc of it and a shorter cd.
Even if you put stun blow to 2 weapon fight style the lower cd on stun fist and added half character level to it makes it still superior in any way.
Stun blow has a to long cd after the limits when you look at it.
Without fighter/palie split its realy hard to get a reasonable stun blow dc for ee content wheras you can get reasonable stun fist with any monk build/hybrid since it isnt monk level based but char based.

Since the main class is fighter, I'll go ahead and crunch some numbers... 79DC with DM, now cut DM from the equation(-8), 71. Add the 3rd tactics rank from Kensei tree-after all you save ll these AP you would otherwise spend on the pally tree-, 72. Add a +3 Insightful STR item -since there's no reason to use any if you have DM-, 73 or 74 depending on the modifiers it gives you. I'd say 74 is quite decent DC. Of course this DC improves during quests with use of Rage spell/Owlbear coockie, Tenser's scrolls, Action Surge(STR) etc... There are many stacking STR buffs in the game.


Take into account how quiler palm was recently "fixed", but on a pdk char wisdom based build, you can still get quite impressive 1 shot ability that works realiably in lower ee content and is ok with debuffer/sunder even in high end ee content.
Take into fact also how broken stupid fist acts with wolf form, it becomes nearly imposibly awkward why 1 ability is so superior to the other.


There's no reliability on Quivering Palm after the nerf it got, I often see the +4 buff 4 or 5 times stacked (even 6 times in eeStormhorns, but let's ignore that) before it lands, that's an extreme investment of 150 or 180 ki (including the attempt that actually lands) and 24sec or 30sec cool down (practically way more, since, now, you have to be selective on your targets)
Mentioning wolf form and how broken it is brings nothing to the conversation.

[Blackheartox]

I didn't want to bother with this thread anymore but, god, this post is... uh... well, read my comments.


Because it is well known that all monks would still use EE Shadowsight if SF wasn't WIS-based... this is nonsense.



You make sacrifices as a fighter? What is the sacrifice you're talking about? Name one of them! And don't name *I have to splash pally* as a sacrifice, because you know, NOBODY BELIEVES YOU. DM has become so easily accessible and so powerful after the enhancement pass that saying you're forced to take it is a joke. You want to take it and there's nothing wrong with that, we all gravitate towards powerful abilities.

You say it was harder for you to get a stunning Dun'Robar than it was to get a shattering Dun'Robar and this proves what exactly?
It's a +5DC belt -Spare Hand (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Spare_Hand)- (Cannith challenges) and it was just as useful for Fighters as it was for Monks when it came out. There's also the +6DC cloak -Adamantine Cloak of the Bear (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Adamantine_Cloak_of_the_Bear)-(Eveningstar challenges)

As for the eeShadowsight and the 11STR belt, I hope you realize a monk needs both but a fighter only needs the belt. Once again I'll point out the simplest fact you seem to be unable to grasp: STR for tactics and DPS is better than WIS for tactics and STR for DPS.
As a fighter you have more flexibility on your gear than as a monk, because you simply need not invest in WIS. Every other score is of equal importance to all melees more or less, except CHA of course for DM builds. I'll just say your CHA investment is not nearly as high as a monk's WIS investment. You may start with as high as a 15CHA but you don't put any level up points in it and you don't purchase any CHA enhancements with AP.



Since the main class is fighter, I'll go ahead and crunch some numbers... 79DC with DM, now cut DM from the equation(-8), 71. Add the 3rd tactics rank from Kensei tree-after all you save ll these AP you would otherwise spend on the pally tree-, 72. Add a +3 Insightful STR item -since there's no reason to use any if you have DM-, 73 or 74 depending on the modifiers it gives you. I'd say 74 is quite decent DC. Of course this DC improves during quests with use of Rage spell/Owlbear coockie, Tenser's scrolls, Action Surge(STR) etc... There are many stacking STR buffs in the game.



There's no reliability on Quivering Palm after the nerf it got, I often see the +4 buff 4 or 5 times stacked (even 6 times in eeStormhorns, but let's ignore that) before it lands, that's an extreme investment of 150 or 180 ki (including the attempt that actually lands) and 24sec or 30sec cool down (practically way more, since, now, you have to be selective on your targets)
Mentioning wolf form and how broken it is brings nothing to the conversation.

Thing you dont see to grasp that playing as monk your main dps does not come /if you build for dps/ from str but from viable wisdom and tod on a stuned target.
You can get quite high and ee viable tod dc wiht im sunder taken into the account.
A monk imo is still better off if built full wisdom, str just enough to get oc and thats it.
All points into wisdom and actualy use all those freaking moves and abilities, you cannot prove to me that banishing strikes tombs and tod arent worth it and that they are better. Counting in the fact that ein and everything in flower boy comes from wisdom as dc there is no point whatsover to build a wraps monk without going full wisdom. IF you dont use tod and stun fist and other stuff and arent full wisdom based then you arent playing it right.
You might as well convert to a dual shortsword or centerd build since monks have the most benefit from wisdom, yes with quil palm as it was it was insanely broken, but you still want to get nearly no fail ein.
So a monk who actualy is in gmaster gains dc from that destiny has dc from wisdom as score and has wisdom from destiny alone.
IF you played a cetus you would know how you cannot afford to pick str from dreadnought as it comes with to much sacrifice.
A monk has way easier gearing and way more straightforward stat distribution then hybrids, take as example monkcher or cetus or any other centerd build, they are stat points starved.
Monk? Enough str for oc, max wisdom, decent hp, if you want kukan do then some points into char. Dont need much str since 2 weapon line doesnt cost much dex if you include +5 tome.
When quile palm worked as it did, i managed to reach 102 quile palm dc, can you reach that high stun blow dc? No you cant, my stun fist was around 94 as well. Can you reach 94 stu blow dc? No you cannot.
Its simply pure idiocy trying to argue how stun fist is harder to get to reasonable numbers compared to stun blow taking into fact the very same calculation formula for stun fist + blow and gmaster vs dreanought.

IF you didnt use triple dark on a mob stun and tod after that then you wont apretiate the power of full wisdom builds.
Hope you try it one day then come back here to argue

[Nédime]

You guys DO realise that the topic went from having more tactics/CC options for melees to an esoteric discussion where a couple 40+ lives tell each other they don't know how to play ? This is getting ridiculous, and very aggressive.

I mean seriously. All stats with +5 tomes ARE an investment for the very large majority of players, I'm completionist (well only 14 lives so I guess I don't know how to play) and I only have 2 +5 tomes. Completionist IS an investment - some ppl don't have time, don't level so quickly. 3 fighter PL ARE an investment, cuz being completionist only means 1. You still need to do 2 more. Sustainable cookie buffs are an invetsment, lol most ppl have limited play time that they don't use for grinding cookies. Yuggopots are non longer an investment because Amrath has been trivialised by EDs.

[Cetus]

I'm concerned with tactics - do you think before you respond here?

If you were concerned with tactics, all your suggested tactics in your first post wouldn't be essentially helpless insta-kills for a LD blitzed melee with a max or near max dps ESOS/EAGA/Sireth THF style.

Real tactics like Trip or Improved Trip you already don't use. You don't even consider these tactics or list them. You don't consider using anything that doesn't do full ****** mode dps. You are playing a centered character with Ki. On top of everything I listed you have access to stunning fist and GMOF Drifting lotus, which perfectly match that "investment controlled use" you want. You have access to other monk enhancement CC attacks like jade strike, unbalancing strike + improved trip, dismissing strike, or Kukan-do, etc. You have access to THF with a lesser crit profile and gain use of Anvil of Thunder. You choose not to use anything other than strength dps boosted stunning blow in your search for maximum ESOS dps. This is one of the reasons I adapted your build for learning how to DPS. It is the best straight forward raw dps ignore subtlety and complex interaction approach I've seen to melee dps.

Why don't you just cut to the chase and say you want more strength based insta-kills in the game. You already have a ton of available CC and tactics you won't use because it cuts down on dps.


Oh right, can't forget the "after investment" part so average builds can't use them. The game needs more 'investment' noob traps average builds can't get to work to sabotage them even more, while elite builds turn them into insta-kills.

----------------------

Take the leap of faith that enough of what you need is already available, try it, then come back if it isn't enough. It's what I had to do to learn to dps. It would be particularly symmetrical if you learned from my druid build how to CC, since I learned from your fighter how to dps. I had to take a huge leap of faith and abandon all die steps and end up with a 1d10 19-20x3 base druid. I took the leap despite basically all conventional druid knowledge saying to stack damage dies. Look at the first 107 posts here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424332-TWF-feats-now-work-with-Wolf-and-Bear-forms-is-this-wai?p=5134268&viewfull=1#post5134268). It seemed like an impossible and completely foreign chasm to leap.

Then I realized that when I was pumping out 8k+ dps on stunned mobs and stunning on demand and on attack every few seconds every mob type in the game that it all works out. Things just explode. But you do have to take that leap of faith first into the unknown. I'll help you by uh ... borrowing your ESOS.

Trip is way harder to land, and despite the fact I STILL try using it with an epic bladesmark docent - and doesn't even begin to compare with nerve venom, otto's whistler, and pin. Improved trip costs TWO FEATS.

Kukan-Do DC calculation makes it hard to attain on any build that doesn't have majority monk levels (and this isn't even a melee tactic, it is essentially CASTED - I'm not using my weapon to control an enemy). Again - nerve venom wins with flying colors.

Not to mention that its a tier 5 ability, which removes any melee weapon at all except what? Long swords? Because you can't get kensei one with the blade.

I'm tired of repeating myself. What are you even doing in this thread at this point?

[Gremmlynn]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Tactical_feat

Require a DC check success. Ear Smash and Overwhleming Force do not require any DCs. It's not my definition it is DDO.

We're looking for more tactics in general, not specific to making things helpless. It has been pointed out that other characters have a much easier time doing so compared to melee to prove the point that melees are getting the short end of the stick.Personally, I don't care if it's a feat, enhancement, ED ability or twist or whatever. Just something that allows melee to be able to survive being at melee range and is viable without every possible bonus to strength and tactics.

[Gremmlynn]

All depends on the player behind the keyboard with some exceptions to the rule. Just because it seems to be a viable play style doesn't mean every player can run EEs with it.You missed the point. Players shouldn't have to use play styles to accommodate the content, the content should accommodate the play styles players choose.

[Cetus]

You missed the point. Players shouldn't have to use play styles to accommodate the content, the content should accommodate the play styles players choose.

What? Players should absolutely choose playstyles to accommodate the content. This is so backwards.

The devs craft challenging content - and we figure out how to beat it. That's where the fun comes in.

How we beat it will heavily rely on the play styles we use - if the devs built content tailored to those playstyles, then whats the point of coming up with new playstyles and asking for more melee tactics when newer, more challenging content gets released?

[Gremmlynn]

What? Players should absolutely choose playstyles to accommodate the content. This is so backwards.

The devs craft challenging content - and we figure out how to beat it. That's where the fun comes in.I guess if one is satisfied with only figuring out one way of beating it. Personally, I have several characters built to play several different ways and want a game that allows me to figure out how to beat it in each of those ways (the fact that none of them involve kiting or using holes in the content design likely has a lot to do with it though).

[Takllin]

You missed the point. Players shouldn't have to use play styles to accommodate the content, the content should accommodate the play styles players choose.

What?? So you want content to accommodate the worst gimpy builds and the elite ones? There would be absolutely no challenge if this was the case. That's what Epic Normal and Epic Hard is for.

[Gremmlynn]

What?? So you want content to accommodate the worst gimpy builds and the elite ones? There would be absolutely no challenge if this was the case. That's what Epic Normal and Epic Hard is for.No. I just want it to accommodate a broad array of good builds (personally I think the fact that "elite" builds even exist is a design flaw).

[Takllin]

No. I just want it to accommodate a broad array of good builds (personally I think the fact that "elite" builds even exist is a design flaw).

It does and always has...Unless your assessment of good builds are flavor/gimps.

[Tilomere]

I'm tired of repeating myself. What are you even doing in this thread at this point?

Proving over and over again you won't consider anything other than full ****** mode ESOS auto attack dps.



What? Players should absolutely choose playstyles to accommodate the content.

It's obvious you refuse to. Keep complaining about how unfair more sophisticated mass hold - energy burst, pin - adrenaline, or nerve venom - shiradi proc combos are. It is pretty funny you tell others to accommodate but you refuse to consider more sophisticated chain stun/helpless damage melee builds, which you have 0 experience with and have no idea how they actually play. Keep barking up that autoattack ESOS path. I'm sure you will reach the CC you were looking for eventually. It's just over the next crit profile, or was it behind the glancing blow?

[Zoda]

As I was commenting on a different thread, I decided to start this discussion about the state of melee tacticians in this game. With the presence of zero-investment CC abilities such as nerve venom, otto's whistler, pin (see the trend here?) effectively dominating the endgame world by casters and archers, respectively, weapon wielding melee's are at a loss when it comes to CC for the most part.

Stunning fist is arguably the most useful CC abilities because its like stunning blow with a fraction of the cooldown, however given its extreme limitations (wisdom, monk etc) its not practically available to melee's as a whole.

I suggest that new tactics make their way into the melee world, including - helpless trips, much shorter cooldown and longer duration stunning blows, stunning blows that affect elementals, helpless mass trip effects for undead, stunning blow cleaves, helpless guard effects for tank types (DC based on character level + con modifier maybe?), other creative CC effects such as powerful uppercut attacks that sends an enemy flying back a considerable distance, bull rush attacks which allow you to charge an enemy at great speed rendering it helpless, etc...

All of these abilities should have DC's based off your investments, and should not insta-land with no save. This would improve combat dynamics, allow for even more interesting melee build diversity, add the long needed defenses to offensive and defensive melee's alike, and would make true tacticians more of a reality instead of relying on the shiradi casters/archers to cheaply CC entire groups of mobs with no investments.


He forgot to add that these new abilities should be placed in the Kensai tree.

On a more serious note, if new abilites are getting added with DC, the DC shouldn't be based on str, because I'm sick of that every melee has to start with Divine Might if you are being half serious. It doesn't improve the number of potential competitive builds just furters limits them.

[Dalsheel]

Thing you dont see to grasp that playing as monk your main dps does not come /if you build for dps/ from str but from viable wisdom and tod on a stuned target.
You can get quite high and ee viable tod dc wiht im sunder taken into the account.
A monk imo is still better off if built full wisdom, str just enough to get oc and thats it.
All points into wisdom and actualy use all those freaking moves and abilities, you cannot prove to me that banishing strikes tombs and tod arent worth it and that they are better. Counting in the fact that ein and everything in flower boy comes from wisdom as dc there is no point whatsover to build a wraps monk without going full wisdom. IF you dont use tod and stun fist and other stuff and arent full wisdom based then you arent playing it right.
You might as well convert to a dual shortsword or centerd build since monks have the most benefit from wisdom, yes with quil palm as it was it was insanely broken, but you still want to get nearly no fail ein.
So a monk who actualy is in gmaster gains dc from that destiny has dc from wisdom as score and has wisdom from destiny alone.
IF you played a cetus you would know how you cannot afford to pick str from dreadnought as it comes with to much sacrifice.
A monk has way easier gearing and way more straightforward stat distribution then hybrids, take as example monkcher or cetus or any other centerd build, they are stat points starved.
Monk? Enough str for oc, max wisdom, decent hp, if you want kukan do then some points into char. Dont need much str since 2 weapon line doesnt cost much dex if you include +5 tome.
When quile palm worked as it did, i managed to reach 102 quile palm dc, can you reach that high stun blow dc? No you cant, my stun fist was around 94 as well. Can you reach 94 stu blow dc? No you cannot.
Its simply pure idiocy trying to argue how stun fist is harder to get to reasonable numbers compared to stun blow taking into fact the very same calculation formula for stun fist + blow and gmaster vs dreanought.

IF you didnt use triple dark on a mob stun and tod after that then you wont apretiate the power of full wisdom builds.
Hope you try it one day then come back here to argue

I hope you one day play a dps monk and see the true potential of the class, till then keep playing with max wisdom 90+ stunning fist dc and dominate those eN runs of yours... good luck :cool:

[Gremmlynn]

It does and always has...Unless your assessment of good builds are flavor/gimps.My assessment of good builds are builds with a solid foundation. As opposed to the so called "elite" builds that involve stacking together a lot of things that, IMO shouldn't stack, to ridiculous levels, i.e. power surge and divine might, or racial weapon bonuses, kensai weapon bonuses and tempest weapon bonuses.

[Blackheartox]

I hope you one day play a dps monk and see the true potential of the class, till then keep playing with max wisdom 90+ stunning fist dc and dominate those eN runs of yours... good luck :cool:

Yep and i shall continue to do so, since you know 925 x 3 or 4 tod is rly bad dps. Uhm yea, forgot to add no mercy and sense to that.. Very bad dps, en bonanza!! Not gonna mention synergy between mortal fear and stuns.
Good luck to you as well dear sir, may our paths never cross again.

[Nightmanis]

He forgot to add that these new abilities should be placed in the Kensai tree.

On a more serious note, if new abilites are getting added with DC, the DC shouldn't be based on str, because I'm sick of that every melee has to start with Divine Might if you are being half serious. It doesn't improve the number of potential competitive builds just furters limits them.

I've mentioned it a few times, but I think Divine Might should be changed to a multi-selector option. If they aren't going to give us the straight damage option it used to be, they might as well give us the ability to choose if we want Str, Dex, or Con. That would open up plenty of more builds. I might actually make a dex based Bladeforged if that were possible, obviously disregarding the fact that they start at 4 lower dex than the other iconics.

I'll save the argument for possibly granting a heal/harm clicky to the morninglords and vampirism to the shadarkai for a different thread.

[BigErkyKid]

I don-t understand why anyone would oppose the introduction of well designed tactics into epics.

I can-t remember the last time someone tripped a mob in EE and I barely see any stuns other than those of monks.

I may be wrong, but so far my experience with melees is that the way they play is:

1. Hit displacement clicky.
2. Hit shadow veil
3. Hit boosts.
4. Hack, jumping around not to get hit too much, healing when needed...
5. Repeat.

Preferably be blitzing while you do that, to get the big numbers. Otherwise, good luck beating +7K HP trash at 100-200 a hit and 500-1000 the crit.

At some point though we have to think through what we as players would like from the encounters. I don-t particularly enjoy the sequence I pointed out...

[Nodoze]

I've mentioned it a few times, but I think Divine Might should be changed to a multi-selector option. If they aren't going to give us the straight damage option it used to be, they might as well give us the ability to choose if we want Str, Dex, or Con. That would open up plenty of more builds. I might actually make a dex based Bladeforged if that were possible, obviously disregarding the fact that they start at 4 lower dex than the other iconics.

I'll save the argument for possibly granting a heal/harm clicky to the morninglords and vampirism to the shadarkai for a different thread.They should go back to a straight damage option or give all stats as options as PDK need Charisma and some folk could use Wisdom etc...

[Nightmanis]

Proving over and over again you won't consider anything other than full ****** mode ESOS auto attack dps.




It's obvious you refuse to. Keep complaining about how unfair more sophisticated mass hold - energy burst, pin - adrenaline, or nerve venom - shiradi proc combos are. It is pretty funny you tell others to accommodate but you refuse to consider more sophisticated chain stun/helpless damage melee builds, which you have 0 experience with and have no idea how they actually play. Keep barking up that autoattack ESOS path. I'm sure you will reach the CC you were looking for eventually. It's just over the next crit profile, or was it behind the glancing blow?

You just do not understand it. You simply just do not understand anything that has been going on inside this thread.

He's asking for more options. You are getting hung up on a suggestion of a stunning cleave attack.

Why don't you ignore that suggestion, and make other suggestions? Maybe a trip style ability, or even one that simply turns an enemy around once every 10 seconds? Or how about a shield bash knockback attack that works like a cone and can hit up to 3 targets in front of you?


The devs craft challenging content - and we figure out how to beat it. That's where the fun comes in.

Pretty much all this.

What he, and quite a few other people in this thread, are asking for is to level the playing field between casters/ranged builds and melee/support builds. The more options, the more different way we can make characters to beat the content, the more playstyles that will be viable in all content in the game.

Even if we don't get more ways of making mobs helpless, anything else we can get that helps not only the soloers but also helps the party means that more people can have more fun.

[Takllin]

My assessment of good builds are builds with a solid foundation. As opposed to the so called "elite" builds that involve stacking together a lot of things that, IMO shouldn't stack, to ridiculous levels, i.e. power surge and divine might, or racial weapon bonuses, kensai weapon bonuses and tempest weapon bonuses.

I completely disagree but that's a discussion for another time.


You just do not understand it. You simply just do not understand anything that has been going on inside this thread.

He's asking for more options. You are getting hung up on a suggestion of a stunning cleave attack.

Why don't you ignore that suggestion, and make other suggestions? Maybe a trip style ability, or even one that simply turns an enemy around once every 10 seconds? Or how about a shield bash knockback attack that works like a cone and can hit up to 3 targets in front of you?



Pretty much all this.

What he, and quite a few other people in this thread, are asking for is to level the playing field between casters/ranged builds and melee/support builds. The more options, the more different way we can make characters to beat the content, the more playstyles that will be viable in all content in the game.

Even if we don't get more ways of making mobs helpless, anything else we can get that helps not only the soloers but also helps the party means that more people can have more fun.

He doesn't understand what a Tactical Feat or investment is. He is part of the new people coming into this game that Turbine is pandering to with their at-will abilities. He doesn't even run EEs, and thinks that because he can Blitz his way through a low level Epic Hard that he knows everything there is about melee CC and DPS. While using an exploit druid build. Which is only good against trash.

[moo_cow]

I hope you one day play a dps monk and see the true potential of the class, till then keep playing with max wisdom 90+ stunning fist dc and dominate those eN runs of yours... good luck :cool:

Playing a max str monk is stupid and playing a max wisdom based monk is stupid. Stunning adds a **** ton of damage to your dps, there has to be a balance between the two with str being slightly higher. (IMO) Any monk who dumps wisdom is an idiot and any monk who dumps strength is an idiot. My monk runs a 53 str and a 50 wisdom, but I'm really not concerned about dropping my wisdom by 3 to get 2 points of damage a swing extra. I rather have that little bit extra to have vorpal strikes and a better functioning dc.

[Blackheartox]

Playing a max str monk is stupid and playing a max wisdom based monk is stupid. Stunning adds a **** ton of damage to your dps, there has to be a balance between the two with str being slightly higher. (IMO) Any monk who dumps wisdom is an idiot and any monk who dumps strength is an idiot. My monk runs a 53 str and a 50 wisdom, but I'm really not concerned about dropping my wisdom by 3 to get 2 points of damage a swing extra. I rather have that little bit extra to have vorpal strikes and a better functioning dc.
Bows to you, someone who understands.
Anyways back to topic, aoe trip from acrobat was a good start, its dex based but thing i dont understand in whole acrobat tree is this: Its suposed to be dex based, they give you improved trip dc, 1 aoe trip thats dex based with a horrible cd and to low trip duration.
Why didnt they add more trip attacks? OR a enchantment to midfiy improved trip to something like supreme trip that uses dex mod. It makes no sense to make a dex based acrobat whatsover considering how much you lose dps wise from lack of dmight and primal scream /random str boosts of which we alrdy have to much.

Barbs get sup cleave, why not give supreme trip to rogues? Wouldnt be game breaking.
More things that would be benefical to prestiges to add bit more fun and variety to builds.

Thats just 1 example, other stat based builds should also get some kind of tacticals as it would add more variety and build options and maybe get dex/charisma/con /maybe int builds as well, only know of assasins to be int tho/
based builds close to str ones which atm, and we can all agree on that reign supreme for melles

[Cetus]

Proving over and over again you won't consider anything other than full ****** mode ESOS auto attack dps.

In order to prove anything, you need to provide evidence that survives scrutiny and falsification. You failed miserably at doing so, with your "IGOTMATHS" calculations that ignore myriad practical gameplay variables.

I barely even use ESOS anymore - so you can't seem to get a single thing right in your emotionally driven posts.

Stop trying to "one-up" me, because I don't care about "winning" some sort of argument - the facts speak for themselves - and all I care about is what condition MELEE's find themselves in with respect to the alternate build options.

Re-read the statement - and try to genuinely understand the words I'm writing in this response. I already have all the power I can ask for, I wouldn't take the time to try to get some extra bit of power for myself, I'm already content with how my build works.



It's obvious you refuse to. Keep complaining about how unfair more sophisticated mass hold - energy burst, pin - adrenaline, or nerve venom - shiradi proc combos are.

Wrong again, out of the three combos you just listed, which one is unlike the others?

Lets see, we have mass hold + E-burst, both work off a DC. Have I complained about that yet? Have you seen how miserably that combo works if you invest nothing into it? Now let's take a look at pin and nerve venom....see it yet?

Literacy...its a wonderful thing.




It is pretty funny you tell others to accommodate but you refuse to consider more sophisticated chain stun/helpless damage melee builds, which you have 0 experience with and have no idea how they actually play.

Hmm...ad hominem

Typical



Keep barking up that autoattack ESOS path. I'm sure you will reach the CC you were looking for eventually. It's just over the next crit profile, or was it behind the glancing blow?

Check out my youtube channel, I don't auto-attack much


He forgot to add that these new abilities should be placed in the Kensai tree.

Not in particular, I'd love to see pally's and barbs get some fun stuff to work with in addition to the kensei tree which would incentivize going pure fighter.

These points have been mentioned repeatedly, reading helps zod - instead of immediately assuming that I wan't more power for my build.


On a more serious note, if new abilites are getting added with DC, the DC shouldn't be based on str, because I'm sick of that every melee has to start with Divine Might if you are being half serious. It doesn't improve the number of potential competitive builds just furters limits them.

Let's just say that your more recent hybrid build should stay wayyyyyyy behind str-based fighters on the melee CC line. I don't think that's the case right now, is it? Anyway, you understand my points perfectly.

[Nightmanis]

They should go back to a straight damage option or give all stats as options as PDK need Charisma and some folk could use Wisdom etc...

The problem I see here is Divine Might was intended from the start to be a melee damage option.

One major reason why I very seriously oppose allowing the 3 mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha) to get the same treatment as Str with DM is actually because of casters and somewhat monks.

Think of it like this. Let's say my rogue/monk/fighter build I designed to use Stunning Fists and maximize it's effectiveness (shelved because of all the undead) were to be able to swap out the 2 fighter levels in exchange for 2 paladin would gain so much power it would be absurd. If I could hit a sustainable 30cha, I would get a +10 to all saves AND +10 to my stun dc's, as opposed to the +3 I have now from fighter. This would unbalance the system.

Another option is a sorc ironically. In your suggestion you said Cha for the Cha hit/damage from PDK. This would get abused on a sorc build such as the older Tukaw style builds. Allowing a 16 Sorc/2 Monk/2 Paladin to get their Cha bonus to Cha via the multi selector (would be interesting if you could just keep clicking this and it kept getting higher) would mean that with a 50 cha, you could have 70 charisma for even higher spell DC's.

[Cetus]

Divine Might stuff

the issue with removing divine might as a splash option is this....I'll just splash 2 ranger instead if divine might is nerfed, and I'll save all of my stunning blow investments by just skipping it.

So, many folks are asking to nerf or remove divine might. What will it solve? Absolutely nothing, it'll instead gain me 3 free feats via ranger and some enhancement tree perks, which I'm fine with.

If not ranger? I'll splash virtually any other relevant class because it'll still do more than going 14 fighter or 8 monk on the 12/6 template. Or depending on how high DM goes, I might go 4 monk and 4 pally. Nothing is solved.

Give barbs more strength, give pally's combined stat CC abilities (say, str + 1/2 cha) whatever, so they can reach meaningful DC's in their new tactical abilities. Nerfing DM does, again, nothing.

[Blackheartox]

Barbs seem to be the black sheep in ddo, you cant do anything on a barb to be viable in ee while maintaining dps/selfheal like you can on any other bf build, they cant even use marks from halfing. And they dont have the dps frontloadnes to be on par with other builds.
Kinda sad, they should be the bread and butter of max dps/0defense

[Gremmlynn]

I completely disagree but that's a discussion for another time.I suspected as much and look forward to that other time.

[zwiebelring]

Kinda sad, they should be the bread and butter of max dps/0defense
But they are. Their problem is that people like to play universal toons. Current endgame favors those, too. I can still be full ****** dps on my barbarian. I just need to be sure I have a babysitter behind me.

[BigErkyKid]

But they are. Their problem is that people like to play universal toons. Current endgame favors those, too. I can still be full ****** dps on my barbarian. I just need to be sure I have a babysitter behind me.

This is so true. But the reason being that if there is one universal build, it just feels poorly to play alongside being restricted to being a caddie for the big guy...

But anyway, I think that it is pretty clear that this (more tactical options) is an obvious good suggestion. Let's see what the devs bring to the table.

[Nightmanis]

the issue with removing divine might as a splash option is this....I'll just splash 2 ranger instead if divine might is nerfed, and I'll save all of my stunning blow investments by just skipping it.

So, many folks are asking to nerf or remove divine might. What will it solve? Absolutely nothing, it'll instead gain me 3 free feats via ranger and some enhancement tree perks, which I'm fine with.

If not ranger? I'll splash virtually any other relevant class because it'll still do more than going 14 fighter or 8 monk on the 12/6 template. Or depending on how high DM goes, I might go 4 monk and 4 pally. Nothing is solved.

Give barbs more strength, give pally's combined stat CC abilities (say, str + 1/2 cha) whatever, so they can reach meaningful DC's in their new tactical abilities. Nerfing DM does, again, nothing.

I'm not suggesting we get rid of divine might. I'm suggesting we make it grant one of the 3 main martial stats instead of just strength. That would help other builds out that don't get the benefit of Power Surge. Once you've done that, maybe re-evaluate the actual dc's and how they are formulated.

Then, when that's done, let's do what you actually posted this thread about. And while we're at it fix that TWF bug with wolf form.

[Dalsheel]

Playing a max str monk is stupid and playing a max wisdom based monk is stupid. Stunning adds a **** ton of damage to your dps, there has to be a balance between the two with str being slightly higher. (IMO) Any monk who dumps wisdom is an idiot and any monk who dumps strength is an idiot. My monk runs a 53 str and a 50 wisdom, but I'm really not concerned about dropping my wisdom by 3 to get 2 points of damage a swing extra. I rather have that little bit extra to have vorpal strikes and a better functioning dc.

I have made 3 or 4 posts in this thread mentioning in all of them the importance of balance between STR and WIS on a monk.

And then some random clueless dude claims that max wisdom is the way to DPS on a monk... near your post in another post claiming he had 102 QP DC and 94 SF DC... smells like dumped STR to me, so dumped it barely hit 13 for PA :D

[Qhualor]

I have made 3 or 4 posts in this thread mentioning in all of them the importance of balance between STR and WIS on a monk.

And then some random clueless dude claims that max wisdom is the way to DPS on a monk... near your post in another post claiming he had 102 QP DC and 94 SF DC... smells like dumped STR to me, so dumped it barely hit 13 for PA :D

wouldn't that be a Finesse monk than since PA would be useless if you dump strength?

[zwiebelring]

This is so true. But the reason being that if there is one universal build, it just feels poorly to play alongside being restricted to being a caddie for the big guy...

But anyway, I think that it is pretty clear that this (more tactical options) is an obvious good suggestion. Let's see what the devs bring to the table.

I always wanted to have a build up option on cleave other than dps. Something like a Stunning Cleave eg. LD attacks are the right direction, imho. You can amke a cleaving trip. Melees need more options like this.

[Dalsheel]

wouldn't that be a Finesse monk than since PA would be useless if you dump strength?

Even funnier is how one manages to have higher DC on his QP than SF. Like I said, random clueless dude.

[MrChipinator]

There are a myriad of interesting discussions going on here, if I was a Dev I'd be paying very close attention to some of the thoughts popping up here and there.

Gonna go out on a limb here, but:

In a certain old crappy RTS game, there was a unit that used a spear (staff) and was able to channel his sweeping attacks to prevent 1-2 targets from ever hitting him, so long as they were his size and in front of him. The idea was that they couldn't get through the spinning, flamboyant (fabulous) attack pattern, and thus did very little damage. A feat like this: "Parrying Blows", is to me, one example of a worthy investment for a melee-type to invest in. Give it a 30 second cool-down, and make it have it's own unique animation, and make the DC to reduce damage be an attack roll. As long as your attack bonus is X higher than a monsters own attack bonus or such, you reduce incoming damage from equal size enemies in front of you (maybe 1 for the standard feat, up to 3? if you took a "Improved Parrying Blows" feat) by 30%. All the while doing standard amounts of damage against your opponent. Lasts as long as you don't change direction, or 7 seconds. Or something like that. If you wanted to have different variations of the feat for different weapons and fighting styles, and as such have different damage mitigation's and the number of enemies it worked against you could. Bosses would have a reduced effect obviously. That's just an idea of (probably) dozens of new feats and tactics that need to be added to improve the dynamic of melee's survivability and contributions to groups.

Just having additional options for tactics/feats would be a wonderful addition. Even if they weren't necessarily the best option for an "uber" build, someone who was just playing around for fun could have 3-4 crazy fun feats, that would be somewhat useful.

I'd also like to see Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins get auto-granted THF or the Shield Feats as they level up, like a ranger does with TWF. That'd free up feat slots and maybe give reason to splash 4 Barbarian or something, get a free THF/ITHF, plus a new knockback feature or something. I dunno. Just give melee's some love and variety at the least.

[Blackheartox]

I have made 3 or 4 posts in this thread mentioning in all of them the importance of balance between STR and WIS on a monk.

And then some random clueless dude claims that max wisdom is the way to DPS on a monk... near your post in another post claiming he had 102 QP DC and 94 SF DC... smells like dumped STR to me, so dumped it barely hit 13 for PA :D

Dude, pdk, dual shortswords wisdom char based, while using char for damage.
It included to be in wolf and was wis based, you can use stun fist while centerd with weapons in wolf form.
Do you freaking know how to build a monk that is effective in ee?
It cant be done now tho since qp was nerfed from tacticals, but setup consisted of doing a celestia/12 sunder item and as stun fist was quite high no fail there was no need to use a stuning dun robar.
Happy now to have found out about your lack of sense on effective character building?
Pdks char to tacticals was pretty broken with monks and its still quite good if you make pdk monk shortsword build.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Dude, pdk, dual shortswords wisdom char based, while using char for damage.
It included to be in wolf and was wis based, you can use stun fist while centerd with weapons in wolf form.
Do you freaking know how to build a monk that is effective in ee?
It cant be done now tho since qp was nerfed from tacticals, but setup consisted of doing a celestia/12 sunder item and as stun fist was quite high no fail there was no need to use a stuning dun robar.
Happy now to have found out about your lack of sense on effective character building?
Pdks char to tacticals was pretty broken with monks and its still quite good if you make pdk monk shortsword build.
But i have no patience to discuss with someone who has 0 idea what/why/how to build since i realy dont like to argue with ottos/exploit/icylike-completionist-s.
So i wont even bother anymore since i have proven several times how you lack knowledge.
This was final straw so i have even shown it on a proper build.

I may not agree with Dalsheel on this one particular subject, but I can at the very least assure you that he's not an exploit/otto's/etc. completionist wannab-be or whatever. He's one of the oldest completionests on Argo; IIRC, I know he had been working on it before I started playing the game, if he didn't already have his first already at that point.

I'm also pretty sure he's done quite a few monk lives. At least 4 that I know about.

[J-mann]

I'm not suggesting we get rid of divine might. I'm suggesting we make it grant one of the 3 main martial stats instead of just strength. That would help other builds out that don't get the benefit of Power Surge. Once you've done that, maybe re-evaluate the actual dc's and how they are formulated.

Then, when that's done, let's do what you actually posted this thread about. And while we're at it fix that TWF bug with wolf form.

Thats just putting a band-aid on the problem and not fixing it. The proper solution would be to return divine might to a damage boost and reevaluate tactics from there. So long as divine might exists it will need to be figured into tactics dcs (if they rework them), or anyone that picks it up will have no fail tactics automatically.

[Blackheartox]

I may not agree with Dalsheel on this one particular subject, but I can at the very least assure you that he's not an exploit/otto's/etc. completionist wannab-be or whatever. He's one of the oldest completionests on Argo; IIRC, I know he had been working on it before I started playing the game, if he didn't already have his first already at that point.

I'm also pretty sure he's done quite a few monk lives. At least 4 that I know about.

Well il pull back my offensive statement then.
Sry for being rude then. Will fix it, but i have proven why wisdom is important in last post

[redoubt]

There are a myriad of interesting discussions going on here, if I was a Dev I'd be paying very close attention to some of the thoughts popping up here and there.

Gonna go out on a limb here, but:

In a certain old crappy RTS game, there was a unit that used a spear (staff) and was able to channel his sweeping attacks to prevent 1-2 targets from ever hitting him, so long as they were his size and in front of him. The idea was that they couldn't get through the spinning, flamboyant (fabulous) attack pattern, and thus did very little damage. A feat like this: "Parrying Blows", is to me, one example of a worthy investment for a melee-type to invest in. Give it a 30 second cool-down, and make it have it's own unique animation, and make the DC to reduce damage be an attack roll. As long as your attack bonus is X higher than a monsters own attack bonus or such, you reduce incoming damage from equal size enemies in front of you (maybe 1 for the standard feat, up to 3? if you took a "Improved Parrying Blows" feat) by 30%. All the while doing standard amounts of damage against your opponent. Lasts as long as you don't change direction, or 7 seconds. Or something like that. If you wanted to have different variations of the feat for different weapons and fighting styles, and as such have different damage mitigation's and the number of enemies it worked against you could. Bosses would have a reduced effect obviously. That's just an idea of (probably) dozens of new feats and tactics that need to be added to improve the dynamic of melee's survivability and contributions to groups.

Just having additional options for tactics/feats would be a wonderful addition. Even if they weren't necessarily the best option for an "uber" build, someone who was just playing around for fun could have 3-4 crazy fun feats, that would be somewhat useful.

I'd also like to see Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins get auto-granted THF or the Shield Feats as they level up, like a ranger does with TWF. That'd free up feat slots and maybe give reason to splash 4 Barbarian or something, get a free THF/ITHF, plus a new knockback feature or something. I dunno. Just give melee's some love and variety at the least.

On idea 1. the defensive thing. Unless it stops all damage (and not just on equal size) for a period of time (like at least 6 seconds) its going to be too expensive as a feat. People are looking for things that stop all damage AND provide a boost via helpless damage. Maybe something that stopped damage from a group of mobs or maybe that could drop incoming damage by 50% from all physical attacks for a period of time. This might be what you were getting at. As a damage reduction AOE style, it could maybe be worth something; one v one is too weak I think.

On idea 2: I can see barbs MAYBE getting THF feats and Paladins MAYBE getting shield OR THF feats. Fighters already get so many bonus feats, I don't think it would be a good idea; it is also contrary to the idea that fighters are a "be any fighting style" class, where other classes strongly favor one or two specific styles.

[Nédime]

I may not agree with Dalsheel on this one particular subject, but I can at the very least assure you that he's not an exploit/otto's/etc. completionist wannab-be or whatever. He's one of the oldest completionests on Argo; IIRC, I know he had been working on it before I started playing the game, if he didn't already have his first already at that point.

I'm also pretty sure he's done quite a few monk lives. At least 4 that I know about.

This.

[Nodoze]

I agree that the Dev's should be following this thread and gathering the many ideas and distilling them down to actual solutions.

The semi-related S&B melee thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441082-Sword-and-Board-Needs-Love-A-simple-example) caught one of the Producer's attention so I tried to politely invite him to review this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441082-Sword-and-Board-Needs-Love-A-simple-example?p=5320528&viewfull=1#post5320528) as well as they seem related and both are proffering up good ideas for melee in general (including S&B melee).

The changes to Divine-Might seem to be one of the biggest problems and it pigeon-holes the majority of melee builds to be based upon strength if they want to maximize their damage and/or have a chance of landing Tactics further hurting diversity.

If DM is going to continue to be stat based then I would say to include all other stats to allow diversity but if it is true that including other stats as options to DM would cause great imbalance or other Unintended OP situations then frankly I don't know why they can't just go back to it being a damage boost like it used to be.

If the issue with the DM's boost being based upon static damage & not scaling with levels they could even make Divine Might a percentage or a formula rather than a straight +damage if they want it to scale with level & other abilities...

If they want to give pure classes a boost (or at least encourage deeper splashes) and not favor the min/maxing splashes they can make Divine-Might give more damage bonuses for more Divine Levels and/or make damage increases based upon more investments in the Divine Trees...

After all it is Divine-Might isn't it so why wouldn't the gods favor your more if you did more divine classes instead of being better if you took less divine levels like it is currently? ...

Speaking of that they could also make Divine-Grace scale based upon Paladin levels or investment... Something like you get 25% of your Charisma bonus at 2nd level Paladin, 50% at 6, 75% at 9, and 100% at 12th+ level Paladin or something like that...

I think the majority of folk also agree that currently Paladins and Barbarian's are weak and under-perform on EE (not counting level 2 Paladin splashes that give everyone both Divine-Grace and Divine-Might)... Giving Barbs & Paladins some extra built in feats (like shield ones for Paladins &/or THF ones for Barb's) may help as well as some extra CC Tactics may also be good to differentiate them but really fixing AC and PRR to matter as well as something to fix Barbs healing (like Barbs gaining temp HPs or healing hit points for damage done as well as getting rid of self-damaging effects) may be more important.

As for Fighters and general Tactics I recommend they fix what we have now and then look to other options if there is still need... Sounds like making Stunning Blow equivalent to Stunning fist and making Trip useful would at least be steps in the right direction and maybe would be all that is needed...

[Cetus]

Don't forget that divine might already doesn't stack with insighful +3 strength gear. My build is able to squeeze 15 points of strength out of it, which translates into +8 tactics DC, and +12 damage.

However, its only a net of 12 str. Which would actually be 6 DC, and 9 damage.

6 DC and 9 dmg isn't that bad considering that it costs me 7 AP to get the thing, and then a completionist feat, starting cha of 15, +5 Charisma tome, +10 charisma item, and +2 charisma slot and litany to achieve.

Those are real numbers as evidence for why I think it is fine as is. Divine might is giving my tactics 6 DC. Spending 3 points in LD gives you that.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Don't forget that divine might already doesn't stack with insighful +3 strength gear. My build is able to squeeze 15 points of strength out of it, which translates into +8 tactics DC, and +12 damage.

However, its only a net of 12 str. Which would actually be 6 DC, and 9 damage.

6 DC and 9 dmg isn't that bad considering that it costs me 7 AP to get the thing, and then a completionist feat, starting cha of 15, +5 Charisma tome, +10 charisma item, and +2 charisma slot and litany to achieve.

Those are real numbers as evidence for why I think it is fine as is. Divine might is giving my tactics 6 DC. Spending 3 points in LD gives you that.

Not to mention that the predominate splash most melee use to get DM is 2 paladin.
Which means it also require an ED twist slot that would otherwise have been put to better use.

[Cetus]

Not to mention that the predominate splash most melee use to get DM is 2 paladin.
Which means it also require an ED twist slot that would otherwise have been put to better use.

Good point, I completely forgot to mention that

Add all of what I just said PLUS a twist slot.

If this doesn't soften otherwise adamant beliefs that divine might should be nerfed then I don't know what to tell you folks. These are costs.

Hell, if my build removes divine might. My 76 DC turns into 70 by equipping a +3 str item, which is easy since I can lose all my cha gear now.

In which case, I can acquire tactician at the expense of either PTHF or PTWF, probably exchange my bane of undeath twist for primal scream - and get a str 11 item, thats 4 extra tactic DC, which brings me to 74.

So, divine might certainly enables better tactic DC's (That's why I splashed the pally in the first place) but it isn't impossible to achieve these DC's without it.

I didn't even include combat mastery 6, which is an additional 1 point, or splashing something like druid instead of the pally for an additional 2 strength via Ram's might.

There, that's 76.

The main problem again, is lack of competitive tactics for endgame melee players. Divine might is nowhere near the issue here, its a splash perk that requires a very heavy investment.

[str8nger]

off topic and I apologize, but thank you for this thread. I've been playing for almost 5 years and still learn stuff all the time. This thread has taught me much and more and I say thank you.

I agree on the very first point made in this thread.

Thank you again folks...and stay gold!

[gordgray]

to quote every one of you but thy wont let me What makes you think that thy will do as your intro stated thy are not going to put much more work in the that area to make it Nicer, Better or More drops thy will do the less thy need to.

Come on folks that stuff you want done cost money are you going to pay the small amount of coders there checks (I'm vip WHO CARES) DDO/WB sees this game going not up but down thy cant/wont even Perm-band people who duped the system as pointed out in other threads why? if thy had band them there base players be gone.

Thy will do what WB/ddo lets them do thy can handle one thing at a time, there is not as many Coders as there once was there direction is set that thy need to do so threads like this one is all type no action just get back to this is my 99 build I need help threads.

End of line.

[Candela90]

I agree melee tactics need changes - also - remmeber when redoing/fixing them - you made dex melees viable, throw the a bone.. Sure we cant expect stunning blow on a dex character, but trip maybe? :P Trip is so roguish.