Solution for overpowered monkchers and monk-anythings

[brian14]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are. Pure monks and "mostly monks" are viable and interesting to play, but adding 2-6 monk levels to a caster or a ranged melee does make an unreasonably powerful character. So here is my solution:

Being a monk requires much greater dedication than being any other class. One cannot be a part-time monk. Every monk must start as such at level 1; if you started as any other class, monk class is closed to you. Moreover, once you started as a monk, that's the only class available to you until level 12. The earliest you can multiclass is level 13.

This would eliminate monk splashes entirely. Every monk would be primarily a monk, with limited magic or ranged ability at best.

[keveniaftw]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are. Pure monks and "mostly monks" are viable and interesting to play, but adding 2-6 monk levels to a caster or a ranged melee does make an unreasonably powerful character. So here is my solution:

Being a monk requires much greater dedication than being any other class. One cannot be a part-time monk. Every monk must start as such at level 1; if you started as any other class, monk class is closed to you. Moreover, once you started as a monk, that's the only class available to you until level 12. The earliest you can multiclass is level 13.

This would eliminate monk splashes entirely. Every monk would be primarily a monk, with limited magic or ranged ability at best.

The most common monkcher build is 12 monk/6 ranger/2 pally or FvS or cleric
Your point being?

[TeacherSyn]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are. Pure monks and "mostly monks" are viable and interesting to play, but adding 2-6 monk levels to a caster or a ranged melee does make an unreasonably powerful character. So here is my solution:

Being a monk requires much greater dedication than being any other class. One cannot be a part-time monk. Every monk must start as such at level 1; if you started as any other class, monk class is closed to you. Moreover, once you started as a monk, that's the only class available to you until level 12. The earliest you can multiclass is level 13.

This would eliminate monk splashes entirely. Every monk would be primarily a monk, with limited magic or ranged ability at best.

I see your point in the idea but it's likely not a viable one since the parent tabletop game allows multiclassing.

That said, some classes are restricted due to alignment from being a Monk. You can't be a Bard or Barbarian Monk since those two classes must always be non-Lawful and Monks must be Lawful.

The Monk splash adds the WIS bonus, qualifications for Monk stances and feats, ki attacks and Evasion. What if Evasion were a level 3 or even 5 granted feat? I'm not actually suggesting this but simply being a devil's advocate to illustrate how many builds would go south without evasion options. Or, more realistically, make it so Evasion is not a granted feat at level 2 for a Monk, but one that could be selected. This takes away a feat slot rather than giving a free one.

Or, Evasion could be similar to some Ranger feats that are autogranted even if they don't fit the normal prerequisites. Say, a Monk would still automatically gain Evasion at level 2 but, if they choose any other class and/or train more levels than their Monk levels, Evasion could be disabled or preferably weakened since not enough martial training is there.

Again, I'm purposely pulling the chain at the notion. I wouldn't mind a restriction for monks to be all monk to gain some benefits but that's only my personal playstyle. At the same time, players who want to min-max ranged builds that aren't normally optimized for ranged play (which is why the Ranger class should always be best at this) should have a harder but not impossible time to attain the goal.

There is one pure Monk ranged build that seems to wallop the classical Monkcher or even Ranger: the "Shiradi Shuricannon". It takes the lowest damage weapon in game, a shuriken, and delivers a potent EE-able character.

[Alternative]

sorry, monkchers aren't the problem here

The devs went so far in raising mob damage output that it just became less annoying to play a ranged char rather than a melee, in a content like EE GH (madstone, tor/fot dragons) and above. Displace clicky, 25% dodge 900ish hp and you can still die when 3 giants swing at you at once, or a madstoned ogre/troll performs his 3 hit combo.

The best solution would be finally and correctly fixing the blitz to not break on ALL and ANY portals.

[mobrien316]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are. Pure monks and "mostly monks" are viable and interesting to play, but adding 2-6 monk levels to a caster or a ranged melee does make an unreasonably powerful character. So here is my solution:

Being a monk requires much greater dedication than being any other class. One cannot be a part-time monk. Every monk must start as such at level 1; if you started as any other class, monk class is closed to you. Moreover, once you started as a monk, that's the only class available to you until level 12. The earliest you can multiclass is level 13.

This would eliminate monk splashes entirely. Every monk would be primarily a monk, with limited magic or ranged ability at best.

You can already do this if you like. I have a pure monk who is a blast to play. I'm not generally a fan of multiclassing at all unless it makes some sense for the character to do so, story-wise.

If other people enjoy multiclassing they should be able to do so.

[Chai]

sorry, monkchers aren't the problem here

The devs went so far in raising mob damage output that it just became less annoying to play a ranged char rather than a melee.

This.

Well built melee will outDPS an archer build, if they can live inaise their own AOE range of mobs they need to hit. The more the stat/damage inflation continues, the more people will gravitate to the easy buttons to defeat the content.

Used to be that enemy archery damage was comparable to enemy melee damage, but that got scaled back a while ago making it even easier for ranged toons.

[Blackheartox]

This.

Well built melee will outDPS an archer build, if they can live inaise their own AOE range of mobs they need to hit. The more the stat/damage inflation continues, the more people will gravitate to the easy buttons to defeat the content.

Used to be that enemy archery damage was comparable to enemy melee damage, but that got scaled back a while ago making it even easier for ranged toons.

Have you seen monckher burst dps?

If yes then you wouldnt say such nonsense...
Even shuri builds outdps most melles with new shuris...
SHURIKENS for fks sake

[Oliphant]

From my perspective the result of Arcane Archers getting adrenaline boost a while back was disruptive to the game, especially to boss fights. The marginal difference of adding monk to that lately, meh. It's good, but coming up with new build combinations other than just 20x should result in a better build if you do it right. And the build with the most complaints has 12 levels of monk, not a shallow splash.

However, I'll offer a few thoughts on nerfing splashes:

If you look at an enhancement tree, shouldn't the most desirable enhancements be at the top? Are some enhancements on a tree (particularly on the bottom two tiers) far better than other enhancements higher in the tree? If so, you can re-order the enhancements a bit without taking away or adding any, and you will move a nudge in the right direction for balancing splashes. This applies generally to all classes.

Finally, a viable ranged only option. I hope we don't lose that.

[schelsullivan]

You can already do this if you like. I have a pure monk who is a blast to play. I'm not generally a fan of multiclassing at all unless it makes some sense for the character to do so, story-wise.

If other people enjoy multiclassing they should be able to do so.

This^
I love my pure monk too, and I love my pure ranger. I dont want to mix them, but if some do, go for it.

[JOTMON]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are. Pure monks and "mostly monks" are viable and interesting to play, but adding 2-6 monk levels to a caster or a ranged melee does make an unreasonably powerful character. So here is my solution:

Being a monk requires much greater dedication than being any other class. One cannot be a part-time monk. Every monk must start as such at level 1; if you started as any other class, monk class is closed to you. Moreover, once you started as a monk, that's the only class available to you until level 12. The earliest you can multiclass is level 13.

This would eliminate monk splashes entirely. Every monk would be primarily a monk, with limited magic or ranged ability at best.

No thanks.

I have many variations of multi-class toons and have since I started the game.
I don't have much desire to play a game that allows for multi-classes but then pidgeon-holes how you build it.

If there is a unreasonably powerful issue than the specific issue that causes it to be unreasonably powerful should be looked at.

Issues like 10k stars and manyshot being on different cooldowns .. why do they not share the identical cooldown.
Why does a monk not become uncentered when using Fury... monks are about serenity and peace of mind, body, and spirit.. a raging monk should become uncentered.
Why does Fury work on manyshot?.. Manyshot is a barrage of focussed arrows.. how much precision aiming focus do you have when in a fury?

[Enoach]

The issue is in Trees not have a ML thus allowing a Single level of a class the ability to access the 5th tier of the Class tree. Now I'm not saying it should be 1/5/10/15/20 as that would kill multi-classing, it should be something more like 1/2/3/4/5 or 1/3/5/7/9 Class Levels to access the Tiers.

Next the innate enhancements that are already set to 1/3/6/12/18/20 also need to be worth taking each investment of class levels.

Also what makes a multi-class monk so powerful - Access to stances and Adept/Master/Grandmaster of forms feats. If these were limited to 6/12/18 Monk levels and not character levels.
This allows specialization in a specific CLASS ability that should only be available with class level investment.

[-Zephyr-]

The issue is in Trees not have a ML thus allowing a Single level of a class the ability to access the 5th tier of the Class tree. Now I'm not saying it should be 1/5/10/15/20 as that would kill multi-classing, it should be something more like 1/2/3/4/5 or 1/3/5/7/9 Class Levels to access the Tiers.

Next the innate enhancements that are already set to 1/3/6/12/18/20 also need to be worth taking each investment of class levels.

Also what makes a multi-class monk so powerful - Access to stances and Adept/Master/Grandmaster of forms feats. If these were limited to 6/12/18 Monk levels and not character levels.
This allows specialization in a specific CLASS ability that should only be available with class level investment.

Wish granted, tiers already have a 1/2/3/4/5 level requirement.

[Gremmlynn]

The issue is in Trees not have a ML thus allowing a Single level of a class the ability to access the 5th tier of the Class tree. Now I'm not saying it should be 1/5/10/15/20 as that would kill multi-classing, it should be something more like 1/2/3/4/5 or 1/3/5/7/9 Class Levels to access the Tiers.Enhancement tiers do require 1/2/3/4/5 class levels to use.

[Enoach]

Wish granted, tiers already have a 1/2/3/4/5 level requirement.


Enhancement tiers do require 1/2/3/4/5 class levels to use.

My mistake, I read those as Character Levels and not class levels. So to the tree limitation I was wrong and thank the community for helping me see the error in my deciphering of the information.

[-Zephyr-]

My mistake, I read those as Character Levels and not class levels. So to the tree limitation I was wrong and thank the community for helping me see the error in my deciphering of the information.

There's a lvl 12 character requirement for tier 5, on top of the lvl 5 class requirement.
Still, 1/2/3/4/5 feels too low. I'm happy with it mind you!

[Gremmlynn]

There's a lvl 12 character requirement for tier 5, on top of the lvl 5 class requirement.
Still, 1/2/3/4/5 feels too low. I'm happy with it mind you!1/3/6/12/15 with higher tiers of abilities having the higher tier requirement (capping at 15).

So haste boost 1 might be at class level 1, haste boost 2 would be class level 3 and haste boost 3 need 6 levels in that class.

Just my opinion of what would be about right.

[Enoach]

There's a lvl 12 character requirement for tier 5, on top of the lvl 5 class requirement.
Still, 1/2/3/4/5 feels too low. I'm happy with it mind you!

Then maybe the 1/3/5/7/9 Class levels would be a solution to prevent Multi-class from specializing in a Tree but still allow them to be powerful through flexibility.

[Stoner81]

What does it take to make an "effective" Monkcher then? Past lives? Gear? Tomes? 36pt build? The list goes on and on, if somebody spends that amount of time building a character then fair play to them! The problem is TURBINE making content that pretty much requires certain things like Evasion/self healing/crazy high saves just to be able to survive. I can only dream of making a Monkcher and by the time I can make one it will be so old that something else will be better than it by a huge margin.

Devs NEED to spend time on fixing the **** game instead of nerfing everything in to the freakin' ground!

Stoner81.

[vengfarga]

I see your point in the idea but it's likely not a viable one since the parent tabletop game allows multiclassing.

That said, some classes are restricted due to alignment from being a Monk. You can't be a Bard or Barbarian Monk since those two classes must always be non-Lawful and Monks must be Lawful.

The Monk splash adds the WIS bonus, qualifications for Monk stances and feats, ki attacks and Evasion. What if Evasion were a level 3 or even 5 granted feat? I'm not actually suggesting this but simply being a devil's advocate to illustrate how many builds would go south without evasion options. Or, more realistically, make it so Evasion is not a granted feat at level 2 for a Monk, but one that could be selected. This takes away a feat slot rather than giving a free one.

Or, Evasion could be similar to some Ranger feats that are autogranted even if they don't fit the normal prerequisites. Say, a Monk would still automatically gain Evasion at level 2 but, if they choose any other class and/or train more levels than their Monk levels, Evasion could be disabled or preferably weakened since not enough martial training is there.

The Monk issue stopped being about a '2-splash' for evasion and a couple of feats a while ago. The real problem is the synergy between monk/aa/fotw as a bow user or monk/kensai/ld as almost anything. Makes the fix easy - stop those abilities working together.

But can you even imagine the tantrums that would ensue ...

[arkonas]

What does it take to make an "effective" Monkcher then? Past lives? Gear? Tomes? 36pt build? The list goes on and on, if somebody spends that amount of time building a character then fair play to them! The problem is TURBINE making content that pretty much requires certain things like Evasion/self healing/crazy high saves just to be able to survive. I can only dream of making a Monkcher and by the time I can make one it will be so old that something else will be better than it by a huge margin.

Devs NEED to spend time on fixing the **** game instead of nerfing everything in to the freakin' ground!

Stoner81.

i agree with this. while i can see the power in some builds and some coming up ones. its not just about these builds but its what the higher levels turned it into. melee is very tough to live in ee. sure some can do it but it doesn't take much to be killed. so people shifted towards shiradi and ranged instead. you can't blame them for that. it increased their survival. sure some might find it too op or just boring to repeating yourself.

I'm totally for balance but i really don't want to see anyone screwed over it either. i would hate to see changes made to our classes before ee is addressed like they did in the official topics.

[Hendrik]

This^
I love my pure monk too, and I love my pure ranger. I dont want to mix them, but if some do, go for it.

Read this and only thought; You got chocolate in my peanut butter! No, you got peanut butter in my chocolate!

:/

[Cetus]

Monk splashes aren't the problem here, so sorry sir - but your suggestion is not good.

As much as I hate to say it, because I enjoy this too - but adrenaline working on every arrow when manyshotting/10k star is probably the bigger issue here. I don't mind it working on one arrow, but all of them is pretty OP. I'm kinda shooting myself in the foot here, but all of this "monk is OP" crying is really giving attention to the wrong thing.

Next up is probably nerve venom. I have to invest a ridiculous amount of everything to get a stunning blow DC workable in EE content on a melee. What else do I have? Trip, another strong investment to CC a mob without even making it helpless. What else do I have? Nothing really, maybe anvil of thunder from LD - but that restricts my weapon use, and adrenaline - which makes mobs helpless without any investment either, but I can't twist that like a ranger can pin or otto's whistler.

Yet archers and shiradi casters can come waltzing in with their no-investment-needed nerve venoms, And archer's get zero investment needed, no save pins and otto's whistlers.

Melee need to make ridiculous investments in sub-par CC tactics, which SUCK by the way (stunning blow with its long cooldown is terrible in comparison, but its the best thing melee have to helpless a target) - and its limited as to what it a can affect, pin and nerve venom work on so many things that stunning blow doesn't work on. My fighter should be just as good of a tactician as a shiradi ranger.

In the end, I'm just rambling here about archers having some distinct advantages, I also threw shiradi casters under the bus too - and complained that melee have it tougher to CC stuff. This post is honest, but stinks - whatever lol

[Satyriasys]

Maybe just give them their own server or something so I don't have to look at these cookie cutter, unimaginative, exploiters.

[Tinco]

I think you're mixing several 'issues' into one here.

First one: Melee vs. Ranged in EE. Problem of melee isn't theoretical dps, it's damage application. Many mobs hit so hard that it's extremely difficult to actually fight them head to head for longer than a few seconds. Kiting/safespotting on the other hand is much safer compared to that because ranged/running monsters are not nearly as threatening as melee ones.

Second One: Ranged combat and 'strange' game system interactions. Manyshot / 10k / FotW might or might not be WAI. It's certainly strong to give sorc-like burst to a sustained dps archer.

Third One: Monk splashes (2 or 6 levels) and Paladin splashes (2, rarely 4/6) overshadowing any other option in melee builds because their respective power is so front-loaded and borderline necessary for EE play (saves / evasion / incorp / stances).


There is no easy fix for that because the quest environment (EE) calls for using those splashes and vice versa. Without a more holistic approach of how quests can challenge ranged players, how defenses work for melee players (no displacement/incorp = no fun) and how certain class features/enhancements can be moved back within class progression I don't think there can be a proper solution.


[Edit] I also agree on the very good points regarding CC, especially the laughable Nerve Venom. DC-less CC spits in the face of any remaining CC-Monk or Tactics Fighter or even Enchantment AM which design entire builds/gear-setups around EE-workable crowd control.

[Wipey]

You would have Adrenaline, maybe more emphasis on Deception or more careful play if Legendary Dreadnought wasn't the clear choice for builds/players like your Cetus.
Maybe more need for grouping or specialized CC, I don't know.
All started with Motu, Cocoon, Blitz, now Reconstructs ...
I do enjoy Blitz too but have no illusions and I think it's completely ridiculous compared to other " melee destinies ".
As much as occasional 4 x 15k arrow in 2 seconds on my monkcher.

Just saying, but I have no idea or any suggestion how to "fix". There are less and less people playing even with those things available so .. /shrug.
On one hand you have threads how melee is non viable.
On the other there are really silly achievements and amazing folks on "gimpy" or classic toons.

[Cetus]

You would have Adrenaline, maybe more emphasis on Deception or more careful play if Legendary Dreadnought wasn't the clear choice for builds/players like your Cetus.
Maybe more need for grouping or specialized CC, I don't know.
All started with Motu, Cocoon, Blitz, now Reconstructs ...
I do enjoy Blitz too but have no illusions and I think it's completely ridiculous compared to other " melee destinies ".
As much as occasional 4 x 15k arrow in 2 seconds on my monkcher.

Just saying, but I have no idea or any suggestion how to "fix". There are less and less people playing even with those things available so .. /shrug.
On one hand you have threads how melee is non viable.
On the other there are really silly achievements and amazing folks on "gimpy" or classic toons.

Sometimes, fury is the more obvious choice for me than blitzing. The opportunity cost of blitz should absolutely be matched with the power it brings because it is difficult to pull off sometimes, not to mention how easy it is to lose it if you aren't skilled enough to deal with the extreme damage endgame enemies are capable of killing you with.

The difference between fury shotting and blitz is the distance. A blitzer absolutely has to stick his neck out and get near mass groups of mobs in order to shine, whereas a skilled fury shotter who twists in otto's or pin and improved precise shot several mobs in a helpless string, and one shot em all without ever getting close.

I tend to run in LD sometimes for the other perks it offers, I like the extra boosts, the back up boost, momentum swing, fortitude/thick skin clickies, etc - I'd have to completely rework my twists to run fulltime in fury (which I sometimes do), but I feel like I can get away with charging a blitz so I run in LD anyway. Then I realize that I can't (in some quests) and wish I was in fury so that I can fury shot stuff like the archers do.

The funny thing is that melee'ing with adrenaline isn't the first thing I think of when I make the decision to switch to fury - its manyshot that comes to mind, which is a completely secondary thing on my build to begin with. That just goes to show how biased toward archery the destiny is.

I mean, if I like manyshotting in fury - I can't imagine what the real archers think of when they get their stars aligned crits. I've seen the videos - some of you guys do absolutely insane ranged burst damage - a blitzer doesn't have that kind of at-will firepower, he or she needs to have the circumstances and the skill set which allow them to build toward it in a group setting. The solo videos are a different story, since there aren't any party members to compete with you.

[rayworks]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are. Pure monks and "mostly monks" are viable and interesting to play, but adding 2-6 monk levels to a caster or a ranged melee does make an unreasonably powerful character. So here is my solution:

Being a monk requires much greater dedication than being any other class. One cannot be a part-time monk. Every monk must start as such at level 1; if you started as any other class, monk class is closed to you. Moreover, once you started as a monk, that's the only class available to you until level 12. The earliest you can multiclass is level 13.

This would eliminate monk splashes entirely. Every monk would be primarily a monk, with limited magic or ranged ability at best.

Why do you feel this great need to nerf other people? Has a monk touched you in a bad place? Does their playing a monk splash in any way take food off your table?

And no, I don't play monk splashes.

[Tinco]

Master's Blitz is up there on the list, too. That trainwreck of an ability should be completely reworked as well. I don't even want to start pointing out the failure it is on so many levels one of the worst being that it is sugarcoating the underlying issue.

[Relem]

First things first, this is a team game. I don't care who has the highest kill count as long as the team succeeds. Unfortunately, the Devs have made EE a complete fiasco, leading to the creation of the op player characters. Without these op player characters, EE would not be viable for a lot more people.

The use of adrenaline causing max damage to all arrows on many shot kind of makes sense. You have 4 arrows coming from the same bow, using the same bow string at the same time. Why would adrenaline only work on one arrow? It makes no sense.

At some stage the Devs have to say enough is enough and actually think about what they are doing to the game. The more they keep making mobs with the stupid stats and changing the rules for them to be in their favor, the the more the players will find op builds to counter it eventually leading to a game where everyone is playing the same build.

My view is the Devs have to create mobs so they they follow the same rules of character progression that a player has to go through and follow the same rules of the game. If these mobs get absolutely trashed by the op player characters then so be it. The players of these characters will then have a choice, find some other way to make a challenge or look for another game where ultimately they will face the same problems. If the Devs continue on their current path where only a few builds are viable at high end content, then that will have a bigger problem with the player base as a whole.

[Cetus]

Master's Blitz is up there on the list, too. That trainwreck of an ability should be completely reworked as well. I don't even want to start pointing out the failure it is on so many levels one of the worst being that it is sugarcoating the underlying issue.

care to elaborate as to why you think so? Despite my use of it and acknowledgment of its power, I disagree completely that it is out of line.

I would agree with you if the following was true:

Either:

a) I get 10 stacks immediately upon clicking it

b) If I didn't have to work it up toward 10, I've lost it PLENTY of times with just 2 or 3 charges because I simply couldn't feed it fast enough

b) If I didn't have to land the killing shot to refresh it each time

c) The counter wasn't entirely removed upon going through portals/doors

d) If I didn't have to stand toe-to-toe with very hard hitting enemies (its quite difficult to keep this thing going on a ranged toon, shiradi or fury make more sense for rangers obviously).

e) If it wasn't a %age damage bonus, which means that you need to already do great damage to benefit most from this. A toon who built for zero damage will still do fantastically crappy damage even with full blitz.

[HastyPudding]

Personally, I don't understand why monk stances are based on character level. For any other class, if you stop gaining levels in that class, you don't gain anymore additional benefits or upgrades for their abilities. Why should a 18 fighter/2 monk gain access to grandmaster stances? This makes Z-E-R-O sense, and allows anyone to get an easy +4 to almost any stat at a simple -2 penalty to another, in addition to whatever benefits the stance provides.

I think the free monk feats should be moved to 1, 6, and 12. This only gives those who are main monks or deep splash monks the benefit of them, while leaving the 2-6 splashers out in the cold with 1 or 2 less feats.

[Tinco]

Sure, I can try to elaborate. This will be kinda unsorted and inconclusive thoughts regarding Master's Blitz. I primarily play melee, I even sometimes blitz if I can't avoid it.

Charging up by waiting a minute spamming abilities into thin air is simply lazy design. It serves no purpose other than to annoy group members and the blitzer himself.

MB completely dictates your playstyle. Once you blitz you play by its rules.

Using MB in a group is not a great experience for the teammates at all. You have to feed kills and restrain yourself until he's charged up; and at that point you're often a powerless bystander unless you happen to play any of the other fotms.

Compared to Unbridled Fury and Everything is Nothing (from a Melee-Perspective) MB is just too much damage for the duration, no matter how difficult the setup is.

Including 50% dodge (or, well, max dodge depending on the bug status atm) it just bakes too much numbers-bandaid into one ability.

Quest design makes or breakes MB.

MB doesn't feel particularly epic to me because it simply raises numbers to a new baseline, there's no "epic moment" involved.


The group-aspect probably is the most important, it's simply an anti-social, anti-grouping melee-numbers-fix that creates an uncomfortable atmosphere of pressure for everyone. It's fine for solo or duo, maybe even in guild-only groups, but with a blitzer, other players are often relegated to nuisances.

[PermaBanned]

I find it interesting that game design gets 100% of the blame, with overlooking something obvious: player choices.

Anyone else remember when the defacto Elite Shoud was to go with a minimum of two healers (preferably three) who rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with individual red bars would simply spam mass heals at the group, alternating who cast so there was always a heal about to land? But players quit playing healers and byoh rules the current era. Remember when the game was group centric, and soloing anything difficult was considered an accomplishment? But people wanted a more soloist friendly game, and it was given.

Now the issue (IMO) seems to be that some players aren't happy with how other people make & play their toons, and game design gets the blame. Some players make toons based on min/max uber efficiency, others based on design flavor. Min/max efficiency will always be more effective than flavor - that's just a basic truth. Make any design changes you want and there will still be min/max uber efficient builds that perform superior to flavor builds - the builds themselves will change (aka FotM) but they will always be there.

I'm not defending what agree with many of you are poor design choices/flaws in the system, but let's not forget the Devs don't dictate how we build or play our characters. Some people claim that game design mandates evasion, yet other people seem to play just fine without it. Some people claim game design dictates the need for ranged combat as the best means of mitigating incoming damage (can't get hit if they can't reach you), but others sure seem to enjoy their melee Blitzing. Some people say playing support/healers is no fun, others enjoy it. Some say if you're not min/maxed you're a waste of a party slot, others say flavor is more fun than joining the min/max clone army.

Devs make the game, and sure some design choices are poor - but we're the ones who play the game and design the characters. Hate the OP min/maxers, scoff at the silly flavor builders, label the soloists antisocial and call the non-self sufficient "I want to play as a group (with a healer)" gimps - but all this blaming of game design for forcing certain build choices or preventing others is turning a blind eye to a significant portion of the problem.

[Oliphant]

I'm not that familiar with monks. Are they really so great if you are not a completionist? They seem very stat hungry. Could this be more about monk and pally splashes on completionists specifically?

[Raoull]

Melee need to make ridiculous investments in sub-par CC tactics, which SUCK by the way (stunning blow with its long cooldown is terrible in comparison, but its the best thing melee have to helpless a target) - and its limited as to what it a can affect, pin and nerve venom work on so many things that stunning blow doesn't work on. My fighter should be just as good of a tactician as a shiradi ranger.


Destinies do have one Twistable CC available to Melees. Balanced Attacks, Tier 3 out of Primal Avatar, knocks down enemies on vorpal hits.

They only stay down for 2 seconds, and it doesn't make them helpless like Fury knockdown... but on a TWF toon, it isn't a bad little twist.

Of course, at it's best it will keep a single mob immobilized about a third of the time, and in a completely uncontrollable way. Perhaps the existence of this makes pin/whistler/nerve venom seem even more OP by comparison.....

[Sebastrd]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are.

You would be wrong. I don't think either is overpowered. I also don't think any "solution" that removes and/or restricts options is a solution at all.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Second One: Ranged combat and 'strange' game system interactions. Manyshot / 10k / FotW might or might not be WAI. It's certainly strong to give sorc-like burst to a sustained dps archer.

Third One: Monk splashes (2 or 6 levels) and Paladin splashes (2, rarely 4/6) overshadowing any other option in melee builds because their respective power is so front-loaded and borderline necessary for EE play (saves / evasion / incorp / stances).


There is absolutely no question about whether or not these things are WAI; the answer is yes. They are WAI and that is a fact.
Manyshot has always been the greatest single source of burst DPS in the game. Hands down. This was true when level cap was 20, and will remain true until they change/get rid of the ability.

And in my opinion, Furyshotting Monkchers are not OP because of 10K stars+Manyshot+Adrenaline. Before the enhancement pass Monkchers were at a comfortable level of power. They were not OP, but that were competitive. The real problem is how the new Slayer Arrow enhancement works with Adrenaline. These should not work in conjunction and IMO Slayer Arrow should either be fixed to be like how it used to work pre en-pass, or it should just become a second, weaker version of adrenaline.

Monk/Pali splashes are not needed for endgame, but I do agree they overshadow the rest of your splashing options when you min/max. But that's your choice, and the game does not force it on you.

I do think they should reevaluate how they design quests, and EE quests/raids in particular. They should put less emphasis on the need for saves and mob avoidance in general and make mobs smarter rather than stronger.


Charging up by waiting a minute spamming abilities into thin air is simply lazy design. It serves no purpose other than to annoy group members and the blitzer himself.

MB completely dictates your playstyle. Once you blitz you play by its rules.

Using MB in a group is not a great experience for the teammates at all. You have to feed kills and restrain yourself until he's charged up; and at that point you're often a powerless bystander unless you happen to play any of the other fotms.

The group-aspect probably is the most important, it's simply an anti-social, anti-grouping melee-numbers-fix that creates an uncomfortable atmosphere of pressure for everyone. It's fine for solo or duo, maybe even in guild-only groups, but with a blitzer, other players are often relegated to nuisances.

Standing at the start of a quest and spamming attacks into the air is your choice. You could just as easily wait to build your epic moment and actually build it while fighting mobs. But that would just be crazy...

As do ALL build choices. If I decide to play a normal Monkcher I'm not going to complain that I'm stuck with that playstyle.
If I decide to play a S&B Pali I'm not going to complain that it dictates my playstyle. Or if I build a shiradi caster... Well you can see the point.

This is not very true. Is it that hard to attack on mob, leave it near dead and move on to the next for the blitzer to clean up? No.
Once they build up a full blitz they're not suddenly so much more powerful than you that you're just in their way and not contributing. at least not in the groups I run with. It takes smart play, but that's not a bad thing.

If that's the way you look at it either you, or the people you run with are doing things wrong. I've never once felt like a bother to the blitzer in my groups. I also don't have to get all the kills, and I don't have to outshine everyone else in the group.

[Blackheartox]

Monk splashes aren't the problem here, so sorry sir - but your suggestion is not good.

As much as I hate to say it, because I enjoy this too - but adrenaline working on every arrow when manyshotting/10k star is probably the bigger issue here. I don't mind it working on one arrow, but all of them is pretty OP. I'm kinda shooting myself in the foot here, but all of this "monk is OP" crying is really giving attention to the wrong thing.

Next up is probably nerve venom. I have to invest a ridiculous amount of everything to get a stunning blow DC workable in EE content on a melee. What else do I have? Trip, another strong investment to CC a mob without even making it helpless. What else do I have? Nothing really, maybe anvil of thunder from LD - but that restricts my weapon use, and adrenaline - which makes mobs helpless without any investment either, but I can't twist that like a ranger can pin or otto's whistler.

Yet archers and shiradi casters can come waltzing in with their no-investment-needed nerve venoms, And archer's get zero investment needed, no save pins and otto's whistlers.

Melee need to make ridiculous investments in sub-par CC tactics, which SUCK by the way (stunning blow with its long cooldown is terrible in comparison, but its the best thing melee have to helpless a target) - and its limited as to what it a can affect, pin and nerve venom work on so many things that stunning blow doesn't work on. My fighter should be just as good of a tactician as a shiradi ranger.

In the end, I'm just rambling here about archers having some distinct advantages, I also threw shiradi casters under the bus too - and complained that melee have it tougher to CC stuff. This post is honest, but stinks - whatever lol

Uhm dear sir, best cc melle have is stunning fist and not stunning blow. But being restricted to wolf builds and or wraps isnt rly that cool, tho new wraps with mortal fear and stuff is ok.

[Qhualor]

Uhm dear sir, best cc melle have is stunning fist and not stunning blow. But being restricted to wolf builds and or wraps isnt rly that cool, tho new wraps with mortal fear and stuff is ok.

that's if you have monk levels and that's if you are investing in the DC. for non monks splashes, theres stunning blow.

[Wipey]

Destinies do have one Twistable CC available to Melees. Balanced Attacks, Tier 3 out of Primal Avatar, knocks down enemies on vorpal hits.

It makes mobs helpless but it's good option only for twf.
Similar to why high double strike, 100 % off hand toon is getting Adrenaline charges at much faster rate than thf.

[redoubt]

The issue is in Trees not have a ML thus allowing a Single level of a class the ability to access the 5th tier of the Class tree. Now I'm not saying it should be 1/5/10/15/20 as that would kill multi-classing, it should be something more like 1/2/3/4/5 or 1/3/5/7/9 Class Levels to access the Tiers.

Next the innate enhancements that are already set to 1/3/6/12/18/20 also need to be worth taking each investment of class levels.

Also what makes a multi-class monk so powerful - Access to stances and Adept/Master/Grandmaster of forms feats. If these were limited to 6/12/18 Monk levels and not character levels.
This allows specialization in a specific CLASS ability that should only be available with class level investment.

I'd line the tiers up with the core level requirement. 1/3/6/12/18. This would kill my 8fighter/6 monk/6 rogue build, but it would make the low hanging fruit a little less low hanging...

Also make the monk stance autogrants only from monk levels as (similar to what you said.)

[pHo3nix]

Sure, I can try to elaborate. This will be kinda unsorted and inconclusive thoughts regarding Master's Blitz. I primarily play melee, I even sometimes blitz if I can't avoid it.

Charging up by waiting a minute spamming abilities into thin air is simply lazy design. It serves no purpose other than to annoy group members and the blitzer himself.

MB completely dictates your playstyle. Once you blitz you play by its rules.

Using MB in a group is not a great experience for the teammates at all. You have to feed kills and restrain yourself until he's charged up; and at that point you're often a powerless bystander unless you happen to play any of the other fotms.

Compared to Unbridled Fury and Everything is Nothing (from a Melee-Perspective) MB is just too much damage for the duration, no matter how difficult the setup is.

Including 50% dodge (or, well, max dodge depending on the bug status atm) it just bakes too much numbers-bandaid into one ability.

Quest design makes or breakes MB.

MB doesn't feel particularly epic to me because it simply raises numbers to a new baseline, there's no "epic moment" involved.


The group-aspect probably is the most important, it's simply an anti-social, anti-grouping melee-numbers-fix that creates an uncomfortable atmosphere of pressure for everyone. It's fine for solo or duo, maybe even in guild-only groups, but with a blitzer, other players are often relegated to nuisances.

I actually love Master Blitz and i've never got any problems in pugs. If other players are good enough they know how to let you blitz while they are being useful anyway and everything goes smooth; if other players suck they aren't going to contribute anyway, so they will just try to steal some kills but they won't impact your blitz too much anyway. If there are 2 blitzers it's even more fun, cause if there are enough mobs both can keep blitz up, otherwise it's a nice race to kill mobs before the other blitzer.

I love zerging as well and MB requires you to be consantly running, so for me it's a win-win.

You can't compare unbrilded fury to MB: unbrilded fury doesn't require anything to be mantained, you got 10 charges and you can use it when you need it. Blitz on the other hand needs to be constantly mantained, usually you have to skip shrines as well if you don't want to start it again, you often need to be reckless to keep it going and it doesn't work well everywhere. MB it's really powerful but it's not an autowin button, you need some skills to make it worth and you risk anyway a lot more than furyshotters, so it makes sense for it to be that powerful.

Have you ever played with a good sorc (or fvs after lvl 12) in heroic levels? Unless there's the need to split up your other party members are basically box breakers and levers pullers.

So this "anti-social" aspect is nothing new, it has been here for a long time, there's nothing wrong with it and if you are a good player you can always find the most useful thing to do anyway.

[Noctus]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are. Pure monks and "mostly monks" are viable and interesting to play, but adding 2-6 monk levels to a caster or a ranged melee does make an unreasonably powerful character. So here is my solution:

Being a monk requires much greater dedication than being any other class. One cannot be a part-time monk. Every monk must start as such at level 1; if you started as any other class, monk class is closed to you. Moreover, once you started as a monk, that's the only class available to you until level 12. The earliest you can multiclass is level 13.

This would eliminate monk splashes entirely. Every monk would be primarily a monk, with limited magic or ranged ability at best.


Your idea is bad. It would break how classes / multiclassing work and make monk a special snowflake not fitting the DDO / D&D-system.

Also it wont even accomplish what you want it to.

/not signed.

[Tinco]

Have you ever played with a good sorc (or fvs after lvl 12) in heroic levels? Unless there's the need to split up your other party members are basically box breakers and levers pullers.

So this "anti-social" aspect is nothing new, it has been here for a long time, there's nothing wrong with it and if you are a good player you can always find the most useful thing to do anyway.

I completely agree with your description of MB, but my judgement is a different one - there is something wrong with it. It doesn't matter how good of a player someone is, running with a blitzer is unsatisfying in my book because you can't overcome 250% base damage difference by playing well. It's worse than running heroics with a bb-caster or running (up to) EH with a necromancer because those can actually play with the group in mind while a blitzer plays with stacks in mind.

MB should be 30 secs duration, 250% damage, halved cooldowns on tactics/cleaves during that, +1 sec duration per successful SB/SF/Trip/Lay Waste, 2 minutes cooldown.

[Nédime]

I think most people agree that monks are not overpowered -- monk splashes are. Pure monks and "mostly monks" are viable and interesting to play, but adding 2-6 monk levels to a caster or a ranged melee does make an unreasonably powerful character. So here is my solution:

Being a monk requires much greater dedication than being any other class. One cannot be a part-time monk. Every monk must start as such at level 1; if you started as any other class, monk class is closed to you. Moreover, once you started as a monk, that's the only class available to you until level 12. The earliest you can multiclass is level 13.

This would eliminate monk splashes entirely. Every monk would be primarily a monk, with limited magic or ranged ability at best.

/ not signed. This is not only a bad idea, it is a dangerous idea.

- First it takes the problem from the wrong side : multiclassing is not the problem - I believe you haven't played what you are criticizing otherwise you wouldn't say this, or at least not in this way. The problem has something to do with fotw, and particularly on how you gain adrenalin stacks (I'm not even disturbed by adrenalin affecting many arrows as long as it is harder to re-charge - with a ranged toon your epic moment is already loaded as soon as you activate it because vorpaling on a manyshot/10k stars is much quicker than with a melee cause of attack rate).

- Secondly many ppl love having powerful toons. Some care about balance, some about RP, other love flavor, but well, some like raw power, and having a well built toon. All those plaay DDO and all those should find satisfaction in doing it. I'm sure the nerf you suggest would cause a lot of people to stop playing - and not only a couple of elitist jerks but really a large number (which would mean death to an already agonizing pug scene).

- Starting this kinda nerves is opening the pandora box. You can feel it in this thread ; "in that case we have to also nerf MB" ... "oh and what about shiradi casters" ... "man those centered kensai are OP"

[Lehmuska]

I actually love Master Blitz and i've never got any problems in pugs. If other players are good enough they know how to let you blitz while they are being useful anyway and everything goes smooth; if other players suck they aren't going to contribute anyway, so they will just try to steal some kills but they won't impact your blitz too much anyway. If there are 2 blitzers it's even more fun, cause if there are enough mobs both can keep blitz up, otherwise it's a nice race to kill mobs before the other blitzer. Until one of the blitzers out-blitzes the other. At that point the guy whose blitz was starved could just as well go afk until the blitzer has finished the quest. Not fun. You can't even build a blitz again when there's another blitzer in the group with 10 stacks already, unless he allows you to get kills. Which he probably won't, barring a few specific quests with lots of mobs, since he has to keep his own blitz up.


Have you ever played with a good sorc (or fvs after lvl 12) in heroic levels? Unless there's the need to split up your other party members are basically box breakers and levers pullers. I have, and it sucked. When I play the game, I want to play. I want to contribute, not watch others kill stuff I can't even reach before it dies. If there's nothing I can do to help speed up the quest, why even move from the entrance?


So this "anti-social" aspect is nothing new, it has been here for a long time, there's nothing wrong with it and if you are a good player you can always find the most useful thing to do anyway. And when that most useful thing is sitting in the entrance, waiting for xp, something is wrong with the game.

[locksmith]

And when that most useful thing is sitting in the entrance, waiting for xp, something is wrong with the game.

Nothing is wrong with my game. This is how I enjoy playing the game. I would say I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'm not. The fact is we all play the game different. So stop whining because some jerk with Blitz ruined your fun. After all, DDO is all about you right?

[Blackheartox]

Nothing is wrong with my game. This is how I enjoy playing the game. I would say I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'm not. The fact is we all play the game different. So stop whining because some jerk with Blitz ruined your fun. After all, DDO is all about you right?

Funny thing, but its rly fun to ruin blitz of some jerk, but it sucks sooo much when someone does the same to you.
Gotta love manyshoting blitz builds, cant stop you from killing. BUAHAAHAHAHAH.

Am i evil??? Yes i am!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5298L4ksM4


Metallica ftw

[Dalsheel]

it's more funny when nobody waits for you to charge blitz and you're left alone at entrance swinging on the air and the rest are actually playing the game

[Forzah]

Nothing is wrong with my game. This is how I enjoy playing the game. I would say I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'm not. The fact is we all play the game different. So stop whining because some jerk with Blitz ruined your fun. After all, DDO is all about you right?

DDO was never meant to be a single player game.

[Blackheartox]

it's more funny when nobody waits for you to charge blitz and you're left alone at entrance swinging on the air and the rest are actually playing the game

Well theres 1 thing about a blitzer, he works best by himself with himself and gets ocasional help from himself to himself.
Good blitzer in a party will always find a way to get stacks, might sometimes need to say in forward he will blitz tho if people are abusing stupid exploits like the sorc one with wand mastery was or energy criticals etc.

[nolifer1]

it's more funny when nobody waits for you to charge blitz and you're left alone at entrance swinging on the air and the rest are actually playing the game
i alwys prep blitz before entering quest and most time im first one who enter the quest, also new raids on ee, blitzer is almost must have

[BigErkyKid]

Until one of the blitzers out-blitzes the other. At that point the guy whose blitz was starved could just as well go afk until the blitzer has finished the quest. Not fun. You can't even build a blitz again when there's another blitzer in the group with 10 stacks already, unless he allows you to get kills. Which he probably won't, barring a few specific quests with lots of mobs, since he has to keep his own blitz up.

I have, and it sucked. When I play the game, I want to play. I want to contribute, not watch others kill stuff I can't even reach before it dies. If there's nothing I can do to help speed up the quest, why even move from the entrance?

And when that most useful thing is sitting in the entrance, waiting for xp, something is wrong with the game.

For me blitz is just a candy given to melees for two reasons:

1. So that they can solo.

2.So that they see "thousands" in their damage rolls. (I challenge you to give me sustained >1K damage rolls, say for a couple of minutes, outside of blitz).

If trash has over 2k and you crit for 500 otherwise and you see a sorc hit for 5k...

But it has been done in a way that goes against the spirit of cooperation. Same as monkchers.


PS ' Another example of how kiting is the best defense in this game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvZfXipfYcc

[Teh_Troll]

Just nerf monks, it's not that hard.

[Kalimah]

I have, and it sucked. When I play the game, I want to play. I want to contribute, not watch others kill stuff I can't even reach before it dies. If there's nothing I can do to help speed up the quest, why even move from the entrance?

How is this different from playing with boom sorcs or death mages? How is it different from manyshot with fury mowing down rooms at a time? Each one of these has their advantages- if you dont want to play with those folks then why are you? Go build a group and contribute how you like.

[Grimlock]

Just nerf monks, it's not that hard.

This.

Strip class abilities for multi-classing. Restrict enhancement tiers for multi-classed characters based on level. Make the Monk class unable to take other class levels then balance the other classes accordingly with better capstones.

Have the developers played D&D? Monks suck. They have always sucked. Play L5R if you want to wear a kimono or play Oriental Adventures.

Granting abilities like wisdom boost to AC, saving throw increases, stances at low level is a mistake. 10k stars + manyshot + enhancements + Shiradi/Fury stacking = BROKEN. Monks > Rangers when it comes to using ranged weapons = BROKEN.

[Chai]

Arbitrary damage increases + frontloading enhancements to the first 5 levels of any given class are what broke the game the most. A novice level min maxer can see that taking the most powerful abilities from the most powerful 5-6 level splits and combining them with the best arbitrary damage increases from destinies will create the OP FOTM. The issue is if they nerf at this point, the formula will stay the same for creating the OP FOTM, and only the semantics will be different.

If they want game balance they have to do so in content, by scaling NPC melee damage back some and NPC ranged damage forward some. When the game was like this, ranged didnt always take less damage and kiting wasnt the auto-win button it is today in most scenarios.

[JOTMON]

Personally, I don't understand why monk stances are based on character level. For any other class, if you stop gaining levels in that class, you don't gain anymore additional benefits or upgrades for their abilities. Why should a 18 fighter/2 monk gain access to grandmaster stances? This makes Z-E-R-O sense, and allows anyone to get an easy +4 to almost any stat at a simple -2 penalty to another, in addition to whatever benefits the stance provides.

I think the free monk feats should be moved to 1, 6, and 12. This only gives those who are main monks or deep splash monks the benefit of them, while leaving the 2-6 splashers out in the cold with 1 or 2 less feats.


Pure Monks get these stances upgrades automatically at 6,12,18 so they do not have to purchase them. you want to move them to 1,6,12?

and it is not quite that simple.

Turbine introduced Stance upgrades as a feat option for non-pure Monks at character levels 6,12,18. (probably because of the fighter kensai tree)
Stances require being centered (monk basic weapons are unarmed,kama,shurikens, qstaff) which means they can only carry centering weapons, not wear armor, or use a shield. (orbs, libram, etc..break monk stance)
Granted enhancements/feats to unlock other weapons like shortswords/longswords/bows and Kensai offers centered favoured weapon with 8 fighter levels and a capstone enhancmement line.

Classes that splash monk dont get the stances for free they have to have at least 1 level of monk and can purchase the stance upgrades at each appropriate tier.

Monk level 1 grants access to stances.
Adept of Forms Prerequisite: Character level 6, Monk level 1
Mster of Forms Prerequisite: Character level 12, Adept of Forms
Grandmsater of forms Prerequisite: Character level 18, Master of Forms

So for your example of a fighter18/monk2 they would have to purchase 3 monk feats when they unlock at the appropriate character level to achieve grandmster stance... its not free.

To stay centered the fighter would also have to not wear any armor or use a shield and..
use monk basic weapons
and/or
Use enhancement line to pickup shortswords.. I'm not judging .. someone may actually go this route for some strage reason...
and/or
use another feat(or more) to purchase Zen archery or Whirling Blades longswords (which also requires Weapon Focus Slashing)
and/or
go Kensai with a favoured weapon .. bunch of feats..

and to top it off the Capstones for most of the other classes are ..meh... at best the only one 1 I struggle multiclassing is Wizard and to a lesser extent Sorc. The wizard captsone and enhancement tiers are solid.
The rest of the capstones for the other classes pretty much suck.

[Grimlock]

Arbitrary damage increases + frontloading enhancements to the first 5 levels of any given class are what broke the game the most. A novice level min maxer can see that taking the most powerful abilities from the most powerful 5-6 level splits and combining them with the best arbitrary damage increases from destinies will create the OP FOTM. The issue is if they nerf at this point, the formula will stay the same for creating the OP FOTM, and only the semantics will be different.

If they want game balance they have to do so in content, by scaling NPC melee damage back some and NPC ranged damage forward some. When the game was like this, ranged didnt always take less damage and kiting wasnt the auto-win button it is today in most scenarios.

Ranged damage should be a fraction of melee damage. It is utterly ridiculous that a monkcher with furyshot can manyshot with 5k+ per arrow. Any ranged item in the game should be a fraction of the damage a melee character puts out.

[Kalimah]

They make the kensai monks take at least 8 levels of fighter. All the solutions here dont account for the fact that a monk who wishes to use a weapon cannot take more than 12 levls of monk. Fix that and then maybe some of these other issues would be more palatable for the community who have built these things.

[Grace_ana]

I find it interesting that game design gets 100% of the blame, with overlooking something obvious: player choices.

Anyone else remember when the defacto Elite Shoud was to go with a minimum of two healers (preferably three) who rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with individual red bars would simply spam mass heals at the group, alternating who cast so there was always a heal about to land? But players quit playing healers and byoh rules the current era. Remember when the game was group centric, and soloing anything difficult was considered an accomplishment? But people wanted a more soloist friendly game, and it was given.

Now the issue (IMO) seems to be that some players aren't happy with how other people make & play their toons, and game design gets the blame. Some players make toons based on min/max uber efficiency, others based on design flavor. Min/max efficiency will always be more effective than flavor - that's just a basic truth. Make any design changes you want and there will still be min/max uber efficient builds that perform superior to flavor builds - the builds themselves will change (aka FotM) but they will always be there.

I'm not defending what agree with many of you are poor design choices/flaws in the system, but let's not forget the Devs don't dictate how we build or play our characters. Some people claim that game design mandates evasion, yet other people seem to play just fine without it. Some people claim game design dictates the need for ranged combat as the best means of mitigating incoming damage (can't get hit if they can't reach you), but others sure seem to enjoy their melee Blitzing. Some people say playing support/healers is no fun, others enjoy it. Some say if you're not min/maxed you're a waste of a party slot, others say flavor is more fun than joining the min/max clone army.

Devs make the game, and sure some design choices are poor - but we're the ones who play the game and design the characters. Hate the OP min/maxers, scoff at the silly flavor builders, label the soloists antisocial and call the non-self sufficient "I want to play as a group (with a healer)" gimps - but all this blaming of game design for forcing certain build choices or preventing others is turning a blind eye to a significant portion of the problem.

IMO this was the best post in the thread and so was of course ignored by all.

I remember people complaining for years that ranged toons weren't viable. Now they are, and people are asking for nerfs. I also remember the alpha enhancement pass, when most people (including me) complained that it was way too restrictive to multiclassing. Now you have all these suggestions that would essentially kill multiclassing.

You can't make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. There is no such thing as a magical game balance which everyone would agree is right and proper. For everyone here that is suggesting monks/monk splashes/fury/etc be nerfed, there are at least two that disagree. And that, of course, is what leads to these threads - people don't like the build choices of other people, and as they can only control their own choices, they demand Turbine step in. But Turbine shouldn't be the kind of parent that steps in because you come crying that your sister is playing with her blocks the "wrong" way.

Are there issues with hp and incoming damage in EE? It seems like perhaps there is. I can't imagine how nerfing an entirely different thing is the solution to that.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

We all need to stop complaining about this build or that build, we need to address the real situation. Some build's aren't powerful because their class is not strong enough. When was the last time you heard of an overpowered pally? I dont think I've ever heard of an over powered pally. So instead of cracking a whip at a class that is built CORRECTLY lets see what we can do about the weaker classes. Teachers dont spend a lot of time with the smart kids that know it all, they spend a lot of time with the stupid kids that want to learn.

This with the other problem: Enemy Inflation is too much. Currently caster's cant DC cast easily (it can be done with a lot of time and investment) on EE. Melee's take a couple hits and then are laid out on the floor. If we change this, so that its still challenging but not because of a ship of hp and str scores in the 200s with saves in the 60s-80s then many builds will become viable. My friend's shurikannon build on EE = absolutely amazing. On EN and EH most of the rest of the group over powers him completely. Your necro spec'd wizard will absolutely destroy and trash my Dominatrix (charm based character) on EH, and we'll both fall incredibly short of par on EE.

Builds are what I do, and taking away build options is NEVER the correct answer, adding more in will ALWAYS be the right move. Once that's done scale the enemy mobs.

[Dalsheel]

I challenge you to give me sustained >1K damage rolls, say for a couple of minutes, outside of blitz.


Challenge accepted.

I'll get some screenshots when I get home. No blitz, no adrenaline, not even avatar form. Plain and simple crit from unarmed monk.

[Seikojin]

sorry, monkchers aren't the problem here

The devs went so far in raising mob damage output that it just became less annoying to play a ranged char rather than a melee, in a content like EE GH (madstone, tor/fot dragons) and above. Displace clicky, 25% dodge 900ish hp and you can still die when 3 giants swing at you at once, or a madstoned ogre/troll performs his 3 hit combo.

...snip...


This.

Well built melee will outDPS an archer build, if they can live inaise their own AOE range of mobs they need to hit. The more the stat/damage inflation continues, the more people will gravitate to the easy buttons to defeat the content.

Used to be that enemy archery damage was comparable to enemy melee damage, but that got scaled back a while ago making it even easier for ranged toons.

Really simple if you ask me. However a solution is harder to work when development of classes, pres, and destinies is not finished.

[Powskier]

these overpowered combos take away, from the Free-thinking style of Character Creation. I like to imagine a build combo ,and play it .But ,the EE gameplay style is to specific.So we have Fewer and Fewer different and unique characters.One idea is a free shield block for fighters each combat round,without needing to hit shift for it.

[BigErkyKid]

Challenge accepted.

I'll get some screenshots when I get home. No blitz, no adrenaline, not even avatar form. Plain and simple crit from unarmed monk.

That's nice, I am looking forward to it. Since you are at it, any chance you could record a run from your monk in EE DA?

I think it would be perfect since we already have two top blitzers who have uploaded the video. Would be simple to compare.

PS - How about 2k, can you git that? :P

[Gremmlynn]

Now the issue (IMO) seems to be that some players aren't happy with how other people make & play their toons, and game design gets the blame. Some players make toons based on min/max uber efficiency, others based on design flavor. Min/max efficiency will always be more effective than flavor - that's just a basic truth. Make any design changes you want and there will still be min/max uber efficient builds that perform superior to flavor builds - the builds themselves will change (aka FotM) but they will always be there. Design changes can greatly effect the degree to which min/max efficient builds are more effective than "flavor" builds as well as limit the situations in which this is true though. For example, with less cross class stacking allowed, pure builds could be the most effective builds at what they are designed to be effective at. While multi-class builds could be less effective, but in more areas. Thus limiting the degree of build variance.

[Gremmlynn]

I'm not that familiar with monks. Are they really so great if you are not a completionist? They seem very stat hungry. Could this be more about monk and pally splashes on completionists specifically?With +4 and occasionally +5 tomes available in the DDO store as well as up to +6 in game as well as items going up to +11 stats and augments up to +8? What is another +2 in comparison?

[Gremmlynn]

Have you ever played with a good sorc (or fvs after lvl 12) in heroic levels? Unless there's the need to split up your other party members are basically box breakers and levers pullers.

So this "anti-social" aspect is nothing new, it has been here for a long time, there's nothing wrong with it and if you are a good player you can always find the most useful thing to do anyway.That's why I generally don't group with offensive casters at those levels. Though you are right, I can always find something more useful to do, like clean my bathroom or even go watch TV. But I don't see how doing things besides playing DDO are really relevant.

[Vint]

I feel that the simple solution is to play the toons if you think they are easy. There is no reason to cry about what others have or are doing; especially in a video game.

[Gremmlynn]

Nothing is wrong with my game. This is how I enjoy playing the game. I would say I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'm not. The fact is we all play the game different. So stop whining because some jerk with Blitz ruined your fun. After all, DDO is all about you right?Obviously not, it's all about the jerk with the blitz up. That seems to be the point being missed, if there is no blitz, etc., the whole problem goes away as the game isn't all about who is going to dominate the quest and who is going to be relegated to box breaking lever puller. A group of heroes is a better paradigm for an MMO than a super-hero and their sidekicks as being limited to the role of sidekick isn't a very good reason to play at all.

[Lehmuska]

And when that most useful thing is sitting in the entrance, waiting for xp, something is wrong with the game.

Nothing is wrong with my game. This is how I enjoy playing the game. I would say I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'm not. The fact is we all play the game different. So stop whining because some jerk with Blitz ruined your fun. After all, DDO is all about you right?

You're assuming it's always some jerk ruining my blitz, (can't really fault you for thinking that. I suppose my post was typed in that tone.) but occasionally it's me ruining someone else's blitz. Not fun for them when they lose it, not fun for me when they lose it either, since I know I just gimped their DPS by doing what my character is built to do.

Something just occurred to me. I must be reading this wrong. It seems to me like you just said you like to play the game in a way that the most useful thing you can do in the game is sitting in a quest entrance, waiting for xp? Ok then, more power to you.

If I did read it wrong, feel free to respond to the points I made instead of dismissing me as a whiner.

[Memnir]

To the OP's point... I can kinda see it. In pen and paper D&D, Monks who take a class level in anything else can no longer take Monk levels. This is as per the Player's Handbook, 3.5 rules - which is what DDO's rules are based on.

Eberron has a Feat called Monastic Training, which circumvents that rule - and allows Monks to level as freely as any other multiclass, provided they take the feat.
This rule also applies to Paladins in the PHB - and again Eberron circumvents via another Feat called Knight Training.


So, there is a bit of rule-lawyering on the OP's side. Just wanted to point that out.

I wish they'd included these Feats in DDO, it would have mitigated at least some of the multiclassing issues - if by nothing else making a Feat necessary to make a lot of these builds work.



However, that ship has sailed.

If the Devs were to put on any kind of multiclassing restrictions now, after eight years of allowing us free reins, there would be an uproar. And it would be totally called for, since the freedom to build the character we want to build has been one of the strongest features of this game. Any kind of curtailing of this would have needed to have been in the game from the very get-go - like the only build restriction we really have... Alignment. Yes, I would have loved to have seen the above feats added, and said as much during the Beta in 05 (well, Knight Training - Monks didn't come about for a few more years). There was some debate about it, and one of the Devs at the time chimed in and said they didn't want to include Knight Training, as it would hamper multiclassing.

Multiclassing has always been a double-edged blade with DDO. We are allowed more freedom here to create nearly any kind of character we want then in nearly any other game out there. And sometimes, we find synergies the Devs never saw coming... ala Monk and Pali splashes. But, that does not mean we need to totally hamstring certain classes in a knee-jerk reaction and try to call it balance. Besides, as has been pointed out, if the OP's and the PHB's restrictions were put into DDO, all we'd need to do is alter our leveling patterns. Take the Pali and Monk levels early on, and things would not really change much, if at all.


The better solution is to look at why these builds work better then others, and work on shoring up other classes' abilities. This is more a time to build and grow other classes - not hamstring others.

[Dalsheel]

That's nice, I am looking forward to it. Since you are at it, any chance you could record a run from your monk in EE DA?

I think it would be perfect since we already have two top blitzers who have uploaded the video. Would be simple to compare.

PS - How about 2k, can you git that? :P

No need for video, just hit me up in game and I'll let you pike an eeDA at the entrance while I solo it. We play on the same server, don't we?

Edit: PS: I won't be using LD either.

[Nodoze]

Simple solutions... Buff Paladins, Barbarians, S&B, & Capstones and give enemies even MOAR hitpoints and CR levels...


(Ok the give enemies moar part was being somewhat flippant but buffing sub-par stuff seems the right answer to me)...

EDIT: If you want to tone down Monk & Paladin splashes maybe make changes like:

- Paladins only get Divine Grace if they have more Paladin levels than any other class;
- Monks only get stances by leveling up like it was previously and maybe move Evasion further out;

I suspect there are other ideas but those come to mind first...

[BigErkyKid]

No need for video, just hit me up in game and I'll let you pike an eeDA at the entrance while I solo it. We play on the same server, don't we?

Edit: PS: I won't be using LD either.

We do, but I think it is interesting to see the damage rolls. I am curious though, would be handy to have a look at your build but I guess you may want to keep it private...

[NaturalHazard]

You can already do this if you like. I have a pure monk who is a blast to play. I'm not generally a fan of multiclassing at all unless it makes some sense for the character to do so, story-wise.

If other people enjoy multiclassing they should be able to do so.

Yep, but I like to have some influence and control on how other people play however so nerf monk splashes please.

[NaturalHazard]

The better solution is to look at why these builds work better then others, and work on shoring up other classes' abilities. This is more a time to build and grow other classes - not hamstring others.

I like this reasoning.